Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

I am a veteran that supported Bill in the nineties, and joined the Army during his Presidency.

I admired him despite his flaws. I even raised money for him in 1992, but he really bummed me out this week.

I heard the whole "two people who loved this country" speech, and I knew what kind of mind game he was giving us at the event.

I simply can't defend him anymore, and it is too bad that HRC is defined by her husband.

Now I read this in today's Washington Post : tent/article/2008/03/21/AR2008032102989. html?wpisrc=newsletter

AND see this footage of HRC during her trip to Bosnia : -c

Can somebody explain this contradiction to me? I don't know how I can defend her anymore?

I don't want to sound like I have given up, as I don't want McCain to control our Supreme Court . . . but how can HRC answer the Bosnia thing & her husband's gaffe with HONESTY . . . NOT SPIN?!

- - - Update [2008-3-22 22:28:46 by Veteran75]: - - - I just found that HUFFPO already ran with this yesterday :
Expect this to be in HRC talking points for ALL surrogates.

Tags: Bill, Bosnia, HRC, lies, patriotism, Spin (all tags)



Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

I simply can't defend him anymore, and it is too bad that HRC is defined by her husband.

- ehm , if you don't know , that is a really sexist comment .

It is offensive.

by lori 2008-03-22 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

I agree that it is a problem . . . I AM NOT defining her by Bill's actions . . . but that is how it gets played out.

Bill's mistakes get piled on her by the MSM. Sorry if you read it differently.

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 01:59PM | 0 recs
The idea that they both lie surely started with

him unfortunately.

However, it's clear that she has no problem with it either.

by RLMcCauley 2008-03-22 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

Being defined by him is kind of a natural consequence of taking all kinds of credit for things that occurred while she was first lady without much involvement from her.

by furiousxgeorge 2008-03-22 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

I don't think so.  One of my problems with Hillary Clinton is that she has not been able to successfully restrain her husband from, for whatever reason, harming her campaign.  I think that Hillary minus Bill, I mean really minus Bill, from the beginning, would have been a much more positive and powerful force.  I don't think he helps her cause, but they seem to continue to be welded together politically and it is very very hard to separate them.  

Also, most of the experience she puts forth is as his partner in the White House.  My sense of her is that there was so much there before that, but she has defined herself as first lady of first, Arkansas and then the U.S., and it is her reliance on that that puts Bill front and center repeatedly. Again, this makes it hard to address her strong points without addressiing the elephant in the living room, Bill.

by mady 2008-03-22 02:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

EXCELLENT point! I was SOOOO proud of her when she was elected in 2000, but she hasn't been able to "shake" Bill since then. :o(

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 02:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

So you hate Bill Clinton now?

by HillaryKnight08 2008-03-22 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

I would NEVER hate him. He just bummed me out, because I put so much heart and soul into him.

I know he will get a prime-time slot at the convention to bring me around :o)

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 02:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

Yes, he has made many BIG mistakes, but he is still good and I know that he will become a better person overtime.

by HillaryKnight08 2008-03-22 02:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

But Obama's a lost cause, eh?

by ragekage 2008-03-22 03:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

No, he's not.

by HillaryKnight08 2008-03-22 03:38PM | 0 recs
Bill Clinton was a very popular President

I would say, that as lying goes, he wasn't that bad, compared to any other recent President.

by architek 2008-03-22 03:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

I actually believe that Obama will support HRC if she gets the nod in Denver, and vice-versa. It would be political suicide for either to be blamed for destroying the party.

I wonder if Obama or HRC would run for re-election to the Senate, or Governor . . . IF he/she doesn't end up in the White House or as VP. - That will be another diary for another day.

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 03:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

On the other hand, I think the general's analysis and criticism of Bill Clinton's comment was over-the-top, I did not read it that way at all.

by mady 2008-03-22 02:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

McCarthy was a bit much, but I think that was also a calculated jab at Bill's use of the same McCarthy attack against Bush Sr..

Bill should know that MANY of us 30-something voters were DIE-HARD supporters of him, and can read through his word-play . . . heck I defended it for almost a decade!

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

I'm a 60-year-old who voted for Bill but was not much of a supporter after the glitz wore off.  Liked his VP a hell of a lot though.  I thought about his comment and decided he deserved the benefit of the doubt on this one, although very little that comes out of his mouth is uncalculated.  He is an amazing politician and a very bright man, but seems to be off-key of late.

by mady 2008-03-22 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

I always liked Gore, and was so energized when he picked him as VP . . . and was crushed in 2000.

Bill is used to winning . . . they haven't lost in almost 30 years. I still look forward to his convention speech that will heal wounds.

- - - On another note - I was told by someone who works with G. Ferraro that there has already been talk about a healing photo-op between her and the Junior Senator from Illinois in Denver.

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 02:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

I have no idea why two people found it necessary to troll rate Lori's post.  The guidelines are very specific about what reason suffices for that and this my no means meets them.

by mady 2008-03-22 02:30PM | 0 recs

The one about Bill Clinton is just silly.  He didn't say anything whatsoever about Obama in that quote, he was just saying we should have a campaign about the issues and not personal attacks.  This is not spin, the attempt to make what he said into an attack on Obama is in fact what was pure spin:

Some are suggesting that the following remark by President Clinton was intended as a personal attack:

"I think it would be a great thing if we had an election year where you had two people who loved this country and were devoted to the interest of this country and people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues, instead of all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics"

Actually, as is indicated by the quote itself, President Clinton was talking about the need to talk about issues, rather than falsely questioning any candidate's patriotism.

He was lamenting that these kind of distractions "always seems to intrude" on political campaigns. This is consistent with his criticism of the "politics of personal destruction," which dates back 16 years.

Regarding the Bosnia thing - It is not in Hillary's nature to make things up out of whole cloth.  The secretary of the Army at the time, Togo West, speaks of Bosnia at that time being quite dangerous here:,item ,1503975928.aspx

Is it possible that Hillary overstated the danger?  Sure, and it's also possible that her recollection 12 years later is somewhat worse than it was at the time.  

It just doesn't make sense that she would make the whole thing up, given that others were there and she is certainly smart enough to anticipate being contradicted.

by markusd 2008-03-22 02:00PM | 0 recs
Overstates? She says there was sniper fire

the meet & greet was canceled and that she ran to the car. That's not just an overstatement.

Togo West does not recall any sniper fire.

by RLMcCauley 2008-03-22 02:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Overstates? She says there was sniper fire

The video shows Hillary Clinton walking out of the plane with the press walking behind her, and none of them are running.  Also, the little girl that greeted her did not look scared.

by Spanky 2008-03-22 04:02PM | 0 recs
Re: OK

If "typical white person" is fair game...

Everyone, especially the media, takes things out of context.

by Setrak 2008-03-22 02:03PM | 0 recs
That's irritating

I guess he should have said she exhibited "implicit racial bias" and then everyone could have looked it up rather than freak out like they NEVER had such thoughts or feelings.

by RLMcCauley 2008-03-22 02:06PM | 0 recs
Re: OK

I hope you are correct about Bill. I would have been quick to defend him last year, but he is making it sooo hard.

I wish more of HRC surrogates showed the dignity that Senator Bayh displays. Bayh is such a class-act that will be a GREAT VP choice for the DEMS.

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 02:05PM | 0 recs
Re: OK

Bill needs no defending on this. Only Obama supporters have convinced themselves that this is an attack. Most adults hear Bill saying what they feel - that they wish we could have a primary focused on issues rather than the type of trivialities that you're focusing on here.

if you don't like this comment, don't defend it. That simple. You think hillary lied, don't defend it. But until we know what the footage we're seeing is, you got nothin' - not that it likely matters to you.

It remains that Obama has run the ugliest, most overtly racist, sexist campaign I've ever seen from a Democrat. he lies about his staff, he engages in really ugly misogynistic rhetoric, he lies about his inferior health care plan and about social security - and you are worried about whether there is a gap between Hillary's version of events, and a news story.

If you're this obsessed by trivialities, and aren't concerned at all about Obama's flat out lies (like denying in a debate that one of his co-chairs in a state was a lobbyist or his idiotic statement that he opposed the legislation that capped interest rates because the cap was too high), then perhaps the Clintons are your type of people. Maybe you should find less reality based, less substantive candidates to involve yourself in.

by Little Otter 2008-03-22 02:19PM | 0 recs
Re: OK

"until we know what the footage we're seeing is"

umm . . . it's pretty straight forward.


"then perhaps the Clintons are your type of people"

What does that mean?

Exlain me :o)

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 02:29PM | 0 recs
say it enough times...

by omar little 2008-03-22 02:45PM | 0 recs
Bill's comment

HillaryHub is cutting the quote to make their case.

Here's a comment posted by Sully (who first defended Bill) that explains: e_daily_dish/2008/03/dissent-of-th-7.htm l
I felt the same way as you about B. Clinton's "love America" remarks, until I saw the whole thing: he ended with the words (as I recall them) "That's my argument for Hillary." In saying that, he, in fact, made it particular and implied that the same would not apply to Sen. Obama. As you have noted many times, there's not much they say that's not carefully calibrated. So whereas I agree with the core of his sentiments -- that it would be nice to have a campaign strictly about issues -- he actually made a differentiation between Hillary and Barack.

by politicsmatters 2008-03-22 02:07PM | 0 recs
thats why Clinton was a great politician

he can say things without actually saying them. I actually don't think he was trying to imply Obama was unpatriotic, he was trying to imply that everyone would call him unpatriotic.

by omar little 2008-03-22 02:11PM | 0 recs
Re: the Bosnia discrepancy

I appreciate your suggestion that 12 years can make things fuzzy . . . but I am just afraid that that little girl on the tarmac "Emina" will show up on the Today Show next week. Just like the 3AM girl did.

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 02:11PM | 0 recs
Re: the Bosnia discrepancy

" appreciate your suggestion that 12 years can make things fuzzy . . ."

Something sounds wrong about the two conflicting accounts. I am wondering whether Senator Clinton is conflating two different events, and transposing one on another. Perhaps it wasn't the Bosnia trip, but another one she is recollecting. I have never seen her overinflate danger in other circumstances. If anything she tends to understate events, not overstate them. In fact, I think she would be more effective as a politician if she stopped understating many of her efforts, especially around 9-11. It underplays her accomplishments.

Alternately, from my experiences as a first responder witnesses do often have widely varying accounts of traumatic events, so much so that you cannot believe they were all seeing the same event. Something like that may be operative in this discrepancy. Many fears are born of little sleep and jet lag. I wasn't there, so I cannot say with any assurance. But something doesn't sound correct, and perhaps the 12 years elapsed in the interim further confuses the issue.

Somehow this just doesn't seem like the kind of event that would be important enough to Senator Clinton's case to be president to deliberately misreport. She is constantly under the threat of death as a candidate, the security warnings are ever present. So are most candidates. Here in NYC even the Speaker of our City Council, the out lesbian Christine Quinn, wears body armor and has a security detail. I have told the story here before about how I went to volunteer at Senator Clinton's district office after 9-11 made me too sick to work, and while opening constituent mail there was a phony anthrax letter that spilled out all over us. That was two weeks before the real anthrax letters arrived.

My point is that everywhere they go these candidates are under the threat of assassination. All they have to do is to tell the truth of their experience and it is clear that running for office and serving as an elected official places you in extreme physical danger. That's why there is a bomb sweep done before every public appearance.

In that context, is it at all necessary to over dramatize a particular plane landing? EVERY PLANE LANDING (caps for emphasis, not shouting) may be a danger to them, even routine landings. It just doesn't make sense to me.

by 07rescue 2008-03-22 04:56PM | 0 recs
Documents seem to corroborate the video not HRC HRC%20Years/HRC%201996.pdf
check out pages 468 - 471
by sharpfork 2008-03-22 05:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Documents seem to corroborate the video not HR

Thanks for the link . . . but my high-speed connection was still telling me it would take almost 20 minutes to download that file.

Can you give us the CLIFF NOTES version of what we will find on pages 468-471 ?

Is it something that we need to worry about? Is it something that Russert is going to wave around at the next debate?

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

LOL - You're giving away just how desperate the obama campaign is. This is the whiniest and most pathetic attack yet.

by Little Otter 2008-03-22 02:11PM | 0 recs
You think the video was fabricated or something?

by RLMcCauley 2008-03-22 02:17PM | 0 recs
re: the whiniest and most pathetic attack yet

"This is the whiniest and most pathetic attack yet"

Please back that up- just a little bit would be a good start.

by sharpfork 2008-03-22 05:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .


there is no answer without spin thats WHY we have people like Wolfson or Axelrod or Penn their ENTIRE job is to spin crap like this

at this point i have learned that Honesty and politics never go hand and hand

by TruthMatters 2008-03-22 02:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

Part of me knows you are correct . . . but the other part of me buys into the HOPE that you are wrong.

I guess we will see how it plays out under an O administration, if he wins the GE.

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 02:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

Maybe stop reading crap by spindoctors, hmmm?

by Sensible 2008-03-22 03:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

You are right, but Ben Smith is on vacation - LOL!

Most pundits have seemed to align themselves with one camp or another.

I think that all the comments on here have helped me put Bill's comment into perspective. We will see how much time Russert spends on it tomorrow.

I think the MSM is TIRED of the Bosnia issue, so that youtube video won't get much play except on Countdown w/KO.

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 03:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Help me find an answer without the SPIN . . .

Me thinks you might be a concern troll.

by Sensible 2008-03-22 03:29PM | 0 recs
It's hard when your heroes disappoint you.

Bill and Hillary were my heroes for a long time, and I honestly and truly wanted Clinton to be the nominee until I listened to Barack Obama's Martin Luther King, Jr. Day speech at Ebeneezer Church.

At that point, I knew that Obama was my guy, but I was still good with Clinton... especially because I wanted a good laugh at what to call Bill once she became president... "First Lady" doesn't seem to fit. :P

I defended and defended Bill and Hillary through all their January and early February troubles, even trying to play off the Jesse Jackson comparison (that was a hard one).

It wasn't until Clinton started blowing off states as "unimportant" because they weren't large Democratic bastions or important battlefield states.  What really hurt was her shady tactics in Wisconsin, where she started going negative and accusing Obama of not debating her, as if they hadn't had like 17 debates prior to that.  I couldn't really handle it any more after Obama borrowed a few lines from his good friend in a speech and she called him out for plaigerism.

So I'm right there with you, Veteran75.  The Clintons had my loyalty split between they, who ran the country so well, if controvercially, in the 1990s, and Obama, who represents the kind of clean politics that I've always wanted.  

Hillary Clinton gave up on me and started assuming that I wouldn't notice if she tried to manipulate me.  

Don't get me wrong, if she somehow wins the nomination by some one-in-a-million miracle that would make Mike Huckabee envious, I'll still vote for her in the general, because the alternative is to give up on America and let it sink further into this pit of anguish.  I might even contribute to her campaign (she'd need it), but never again would I trust her to do anything that wasn't in her own self interest.

All I can tell you is, keep the faith.  Obama is probably going to win the nomination, and then we Democrats, independants, and disaffected Republicans can come together and show John "100 Years" McCain what true Americans are made of.

by Dracomicron 2008-03-22 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: It's hard when your heroes disappoint you.

Thank you for your perspective . . . our other option is a 100-year war, Mitch McConnell as Senate Majority Leader, and a GOP controlled Supreme Court.

DEM '08

by Veteran75 2008-03-22 04:02PM | 0 recs
Preach it

Word to that.

by Dracomicron 2008-03-22 04:26PM | 0 recs


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