Florida to Obama: No You Can't


     When Barack Obama takes his traveling tent revival to Florida on Wednesday he can expect those wildfires to still be burning in the hearts of many furious Democrats.

    Protests are planned for every event he attends from the moment his plane touches down until he leaves the state.  From fund raisers to rallies, he'll be greeted by Floridians demanding that their votes be counted.

    One organizer says the "No you can't" message should make it clear that Democrats can't win in November with a 48-state candidate and that the Obama charm offensive is meaningless without his committment to demand full representation for Florida at the Democratic National Convention.

    The Florida political fires won't be extinguished until the delegates are recognized.  So prepare for the heat, Barack.  You may get some big bucks from Palm Beach and Miami elites but don't expect to feel the love from the Florida rank and file.    

Tags: Barack Obama, delegates, Florida (all tags)

Comments

230 Comments

Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

I am from Florida, and I will be voting for Obama in November.

by Spanky 2008-05-19 08:20AM | 0 recs
Whew!

Then I guess that Obama has Florida in the bag!

by Inky 2008-05-19 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Whew!

Of course not.  Every working class voter in Florida will oppose him.  The working class would rather have four more years of George W. Bush policies, a broken economy, billions misspent in Iraq and no plan for health care if they can only avenge the slight enacted upon them by the Democratic (and Republican) parties.

Keep the healthcare and keep us in Iraq.  You alone, Barack Obama, are responsible for Floridians votes not counting, not counting Hillary's support of the measure, of course.

by niksder 2008-05-19 08:41AM | 0 recs
Snark overload!!!!!!!

Haha....good pos though. The Hillary supporters seem to have trouble remmebering that it was Hillary and her own campaign advisers like McAuliffe and Wolfson who supported stripping Michigan and Florida of their delegates in the first place.

by Deano963 2008-05-19 08:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Snark overload!!!!!!!

Facts are such stubborn things!

by PhilFR 2008-05-19 12:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Snark overload!!!!!!!

Again, the facts are the facts, and the effervesent campaign to change them still doesn't.

Hillary did not agree to strip FL & MI of their delegates.  She agreed to not campaign there.
Period.

Please quite trying to edit history and use propaganda to obfuscate Obama's position on FL and MI.

by TxDem08 2008-05-19 12:20PM | 0 recs
You are a liar of the worst sort

You have the internet at your position and deliberately set out false statements.  Let's re-examine..

From the Washington Post

The DNC's rules and bylaws committee, which enforces party rules, voted yesterday morning to strip Florida of all its delegates to the 2008 Democratic National Convention in Denver -- the harshest penalty at its disposal.

Try again, you pathetic moron.

by Regenman 2008-05-19 02:16PM | 0 recs
Re: You are a simpleton and a dumbass.

You are indeed the biggest fool and loud-mouth here.  Your quote names the RBC, not Hilllary Clinton.  Clinton had no authority to strip the FL & MI delegation(s) of their delegates, yet she agreed with the DNC to not campaign in either state.

Your moronic myopia precludes you from understanding such logic and should clearly prohibit you from any further attempts to spread falsehoods and innuendo.  Yet alas, I'm sure it won't as idiots such as yourself continue to find ways to promote outright lies and fling accusations at will when your cult leader is called out.

Enjoy the refill.

by TxDem08 2008-05-27 09:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Ditto...

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-19 12:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Why are so gleeful about this hypothetical fifth column?  Does 'President McCain' sound like just retribution to you?  Why are you struggling to paint the successful campaign of our likely nominee with such a cliche smear?  How do you want our country to look this time next year?

by Strummerson 2008-05-19 08:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Their hate is so intense that they would take almost anything for Obama to lose in the GE.  Their whole world view depends on it.

by interestedbystander 2008-05-19 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

And if Obama can't stand the heat, he needs to get out of the kitchen.

by KnowVox 2008-05-19 08:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Excellent point by KnowVox. If Obama turns around and doesn't go to Florida, he's clearly shown his lack of determination.

Well, said, brother. I look forward to honoring our pledge to campaign for the nominee.

by ragekage 2008-05-19 08:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

And when the protesters show up, he should gracefully explain why disenfranchising 2.5 million voters is a GREAT idea, and exactly why he doesn't want their voices to be heard or for their votes to count.

by KnowVox 2008-05-19 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

No problem, brother, you make this easy! Since that's a total mischaracterization, it'll be easy to refute that line of thinking. Especially after Michigan and Florida get seated on June 1st, further cementing his nomination and eliminating that tired old line forever!

by ragekage 2008-05-19 08:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Especially after Michigan and Florida get seated on June 1st, further cementing his nomination and eliminating that tired old line forever!

Ah, it's always nice to see such a gentle soul. Do you think that will really end it?

Get ready for months of "why didn't he allow them to be re-seated earlier??" and "he only cares about Michigan and Florida after he wins the nomination!" and "He killed a re-vote!"

There are a lot of people here who aren't looking to have their grievances with Obama addressed; at this point, they just really like having grievances.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-05-19 11:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

I just had the most pleasant vision, of KnowVox and Obama discussing the Florida circumstances on some news program.  KnowVox makes an accusation, and Obama gracefully tears its premises to shreds.  KnowVox retreats to a different claim, which Obama calmly rebuts.  KnowVox cries foul, and the moderator points out that KnowVox has the facts wrong.

by deminva 2008-05-19 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Except Barack Obama did not disenfranchise them, so your idiotic statement makes no sense. He has nothing to apologize for. He didn't vote to strip them of their delegates, and he's not the one who blocked a revote by refusing to allow those who had voted in the Republican primaries during the original vote to vote again in a possible revote.

by Deano963 2008-05-19 08:53AM | 0 recs
I think Ickes could do a better job

will he be there?

by JJE 2008-05-19 09:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

All right....  I'm going to all caps the next line because I am way beyond sick of the word applied where it does not belong...

WE WERE NOT DISENFRANCHISED....!!!

We voted... our votes were counted... our votes matter... we were not disenfranchised!  Talk to voters in Indiana... they will define the word to you.

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-19 12:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

He's already been doing this...in West Virginia and Kentucky.  How many more times you want to see the writing on the wall?  When it's too late?

by thebluenote 2008-05-19 08:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

I suppose it was okay when Clinton skipped events in dozens of states, wrote off some entirely- hell, the polls came out and she ditched her event in Roanoke, Virginia like we had the plague. And this is in mountainous SW Virginia; I thought that's where her base was?

How many more times you want to see the writing on the wall? When (will it be) too late?

by ragekage 2008-05-19 08:38AM | 0 recs
Duh. Why do you think he's going there?

To start to mend some fences and fix the damage done by the Clinton propaganda campaign.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-19 08:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Duh. Why do you think he's going there?

Not to mention to fix the damage done by the Obama propaganda campaign!.

david

by giusd 2008-05-19 08:27AM | 0 recs
For those of you who say there's more TR abuse...

from Obama supporters than Clinton supporters here, take close note, and next time you're going to write a diary about how the Clinton supporters here are so much more well behaved, well, don't bother.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-19 08:50AM | 0 recs
Re: For those of you who say there's more TR abuse

Agreed...

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-19 12:07PM | 0 recs
Re: For those of you who say there's more TR abuse

Me too.

by spacemanspiff 2008-05-19 12:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Do you have a source for this diary, regarding planned protests and hostility towards Obama by the Floridians?

by obscurant 2008-05-19 08:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Now voters who want their voices to be heard are "hostile?" Or "Bitter?" Or "Clingy?" He's sure got a long list of adjectives for unacceptable voters.

by KnowVox 2008-05-19 08:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Whoever called them 'unacceptable'?

But if you are protesting a candidate, then, yeah, you're hostile.

by obscurant 2008-05-19 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Wanting your vote to be counted isn't "hostile."

by KnowVox 2008-05-19 09:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Sticking signs in Barack Obama's face, however, is.

How is it that Hillary Clinton's campaign strategist can actually vote for the state of Florida to be completely stripped of their delegates, and yet her supporters organize a protest against someone else?

by Jess81 2008-05-19 12:04PM | 0 recs
I'd like to see him tour some retirement condos

and tell the 90 year olds that their votes don't count.

by NewHampster 2008-05-19 08:22AM | 0 recs
This is like the fifth time today, yeesh!

by ragekage 2008-05-19 08:23AM | 0 recs
Re: This is like the fifth time today, yeesh!

You apparently are enjoying posting this talking point.

by thebluenote 2008-05-19 08:29AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd like to see him tour some retirement condo

Are you stupid enough to think that Obama believes anyone's vote doesn't count?   My guess is yes, but I hope for your sake you are just engaging in some hyperbole.  

by Blue Neponset 2008-05-19 08:25AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd like to see him tour some retirement condo

Well he basically didn't campaign in West Virginia or Kentucky.

by steveinohio 2008-05-19 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Okay

We're not really this stupid, right?  Obama, like Clinton, is very aware of expectations.  He was going to lose WV big; if he campaigned there nonstop, and still lost by 30+, that would have looked terrible.  If he didn't campaign there at all, he would have been accused of the sorts of things Clinton supporters accuse him of anyway.

Clinton is currently making a point of the fact that Obama is barely campaigning in Kentucky, while she's barely campaigning in Oregon.  The same dynamic occurred in NC and IN, remember?  They both know that he cannot win KY and she cannot win OR.  If she could, she'd be there now, because it assuredly would be better for her to win OR by 1% and KY by 20% than to win KY by 30% and lose OR.  

They're eaching trying to maximize their victories.  It has nothing to do with whose votes count, or disdaining voters.  And if you really believe I'm wrong, I trust you were suitably disgusted by the many states Clinton ignored in February.

by deminva 2008-05-19 04:02PM | 0 recs
Re: I'd like to see him tour some retirement condo

I'm afraid you got him.  While he could have been trying to increase his share of the 79 delegates in KY + WV by, say, 10, he spent the week:

  • Netting an average of 6 or so superdelegate endorsements per day
  • Campaigning in Oregon, South Dakota, and Montana
  • Bigfooting the Clinton WV celebration with the endorsement of John Edwards
  • Making nice with MI voters (see prev point)
  • Engaging in highly publicized sparring with Bush and McCain
  • Increasing his lead to 16% in the latest Gallup (the biggest gap yet)
  • Successfully courting big Clinton donors for the general election
  • Extending feelers to former Clinton campaign staffers (link)
  • Holding a rally for 65-75 thousand close friends on a beautiful day in Portland

Yep, it sucks to be Sen. Obama and be a loser in KY and WV.  

Gratuitous prediction: Obama will again bigfoot Sen Clinton on Wednesday, when he travels to Florida to make nice, and incidentally rolls out another huge endorsement.  (I'm betting on Pelosi and the "Pelosi Club", but it could be Pres. Carter. Note that Pres. Carter is in the Pelosi gang, so my money's on both)

by Twin Planets 2008-05-19 04:27PM | 0 recs
Re: I'd like to see him tour some retirement condo

Wow, talk about a mixed blessing.  I'm not sure I'd want my candidate to have the endorsement of Pelosi or Carter, though I at least respect Carter.

by therealdeal 2008-05-19 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: I'd like to see him tour some retirement condo

It's all about headlines and lead stories. KY could be embarrassing, but not if no one notices...

All's fair, non-bean-bag-wise.

by Twin Planets 2008-05-19 07:59PM | 0 recs
Re: I'd like to see him tour some retirement condo

Hmmm.  Stupid enough to hope he can get away without having their vote count it seems.

by thebluenote 2008-05-19 08:28AM | 0 recs
I don't think he's stupid

I think he and Axelrod are 2 Chicago smack down politicians who could give a rats patootie about the actual voters.

by NewHampster 2008-05-19 08:32AM | 0 recs
Re: I don't think he's stupid

How did that 11 state strategy work out for you guys?

by kasjogren 2008-05-19 08:36AM | 0 recs
Re: I don't think he's stupid

They've already shown that when they said so on blocking Michigan from a revote.  

It seems his followers just don't want to face reality.

by LindaSFNM 2008-05-19 08:39AM | 0 recs
Re: I don't think he's stupid
It seems his followers just don't want to face reality.

Are you immune to irony?
by obscurant 2008-05-19 08:59AM | 0 recs
Re: I don't think he's stupid

You need to stop being so dishonest.

He didn't block just any reasonable revote.

He OBJECTED (and rightfully so) a revote that would only allow those who voted previously to vote.

And the sad thing is that you know better...

by Darknesse 2008-05-19 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Obama just wants an ad.  He never cares about reality and substance.  Give him his marketing and he's a happy camper.

He would rather not talk about the issues or take live questions from voters, he'd rather give a prepared Pep Rally.  We have our new Cheer Leader.  Ra Ra Sis Bum Ba, give it up for Barry O ba ma!  

He turnes down Debates, he turns down televised Townhalls.  He wants the sound bite.

Remember, he's been planning these rallies for weeks, they need that time for a one time large crowd gathering.  lol

...and the majority VOTERS still say, No He Can't!

by LindaSFNM 2008-05-19 08:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Reference the picture above, I can't be bothered to post it yet again.

by ragekage 2008-05-19 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

But Obama hasn't stopped with his empty talking points, has he.  No he can't.  lol

by thebluenote 2008-05-19 08:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Oh, snap! Beaten by the "I know you are but what am I" comeback! How could I have fallen into that trap?

by ragekage 2008-05-19 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Why?  Five times was your limit?

by LindaSFNM 2008-05-19 08:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Yeah, my demagogometer broke. Readings were off the charts!

by ragekage 2008-05-19 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

They are broken records, Rage. Take away their talking points and the crumble. Which is the one of the extra special side benefits of Obama winning in November: Their every prediction, wild-eyed rant, and whine will have been proven untrue. Nothing left to do but yell at clouds.

by Rationalisto 2008-05-19 04:40PM | 0 recs
Turned down all 21 debates?

I realize that you're getting desperate to keep us divided, but you can probably do better than harp on refusing debates.  That didn't work in Wisconsin, it's not going to work now.

If anything debates are where you get the free media and soundbytes.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-19 08:26AM | 0 recs
Why won't Hillary debate Ralph Nader and...

Mike Gravel?  What is she hiding from?!

by you like it 2008-05-19 09:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

It's a good thing Obama is also the head of the DNC so that when these people change his mind, he can make sure Florida is counted with no penalty at his pleasure.

Oh, wait....he has nothing to do with the decision. Smart protesting there. What's next? Harassing Starbucks employees because they served coffee to John Yoo the morning he authored the torture memos?

by Reeves 2008-05-19 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

John Yoo is my best friend's neighbor now.  He doesn't cut his grass hardly ever, I guess he found his conscience and decided to stop torturing plant life.

by kasjogren 2008-05-19 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

nevermind it is Robert Delahunty that is the neighbor, the OTHER guy that authored the torture memo

by kasjogren 2008-05-19 08:40AM | 0 recs
John Yoo is an apt reference

he shares with the Hillary camp the notion that rules are quaint and made to be broken to serve  political interests.  

by JJE 2008-05-19 08:51AM | 0 recs
I'm sure it will be glorious

Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and fifty senior citizens (who are probably mostly just happy to be on the road) hitting every rally in a bus, dodging concerned Democrats asking why she isn't campaigning for congressional Democrats in southern Florida.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-19 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sure it will be glorious

Ageism is ugly.  Very ugly.

by Tolstoy 2008-05-19 08:35AM | 0 recs
So "senior citizens" is a slur, now?

Have you seen the pictures of Wasserman-Schultz's previous rallies on this issue?  The median age looks to be 60 or older.

I have great respect for my elders; I have to wonder about Debbie's, sometimes, if she's carting them around for a cause that is disingenuous at best.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-19 09:01AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sure it will be glorious

I'm glad you have accepted that.  Maybe you can stop denigrating young people and calling Obama supporters "boys" now.

by catalysis 2008-05-19 11:47AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sure it will be glorious

No, Hillary supporters get a free pass on anything they say. Whatever Obama supporters say, though, is like it came out of Barack's own mouth.

by CrazyDrumGuy 2008-05-19 12:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Yeah, Floridans have every right to expect their votes won't count -- just like the last election....

by KnowVox 2008-05-19 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

He got warned by Howard and took back his mission accomplished plan, maybe he'll heed the warning of Democrats in Florida and support seating those delegates.  If he want the mandate he'll need to accomplish his bottom up strategy for change, he'll try to win with all Democrats.  That's the only sure fire way he'll get fully party support. If it's sneaky and some insider deal, he'll take away his 'reason' for being in the race, unless the fierce urgency of his now has to do with running against a girl.  That would be cynical of him, I hope he heeds this warning. Great diary, short but pithy, and right on for the sake of party unity.  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 08:33AM | 0 recs
SEAT ALL OF MICHIGANS DELEGATES TOO!

All of them.  My family back home deserve nothing less!

by alegre 2008-05-19 08:44AM | 0 recs
Fidel Castro agrees!

by JJE 2008-05-19 08:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Fidel Castro agrees!

That comment doesn't deserve to be hid. He's making a valid point that those elections would not hold up to international standards.

by Djo 2008-05-19 12:22PM | 0 recs
Re: SEAT ALL OF MICHIGANS DELEGATES TOO!

Oh, Alegre.  Will you ever admit Clinton's blatant lies and hypocrisies about Michigan?

by deminva 2008-05-19 03:10PM | 0 recs
Again Alegre

Will you have a life when this primary is over?  What will you hate then?  Kittens?  Puppies?  Kittens and puppies living together?  

by LtWorf 2008-05-19 05:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Regarding your proofreading offer...

but I get my genders right?  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 08:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Regarding your proofreading offer...

How many do you have? ;->

by redwagon 2008-05-19 12:10PM | 0 recs
depends on which handle you're using

is that Anna Shane, Susan Hu or SusanUnPc.

Seriously, pick one and stick with it.

by Regenman 2008-05-19 12:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Can you please post pictures and news accounts of these protests once they're complete?  Thanks.  I'm expecting Tiananmen Square 2.0, so please don't disappoint.

by Pat Flatley 2008-05-19 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

I can just see the phalanx of Obama tanks rumbling through Pina Coladaville now....

by the mollusk 2008-05-19 12:32PM | 0 recs
You want to protest the presumptive

Democratic nominee? Just how does that help the Democratic party win in November?

by Sam Wise Gingy 2008-05-19 08:25AM | 0 recs
The diarist...

is not voting for the nominee this fall.

by you like it 2008-05-19 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: The diarist...

Actively working against Democrats is worse than not voting.

Eating sour grapes make you sick.

by Sam Wise Gingy 2008-05-19 10:11AM | 0 recs
Re: The diarist...

Agreed.  My point is the diarist likely doesn't care about hurting the Democratic cause in November.

by you like it 2008-05-19 11:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

by moevaughn 2008-05-19 08:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't
Is this protest grassroots?
Is there a link?
Just saying there will be protests is a pretty easy call..at any event for any purpose there will be a few folks with signs...
How did you all electing Jeb work out for you?
by nogo postal 2008-05-19 08:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

But seriously, I would like to see the links to all of these planned protests.  It would be nice to understand their depth and breadth.

by Pat Flatley 2008-05-19 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No Deal

Thank you for this excellent post.  I don't have time to write a detailed comment now, so will just simply add:

ATTN:  Obama and the DNC and Dem Party "leaders"

IT'S THE VOTERS, STUPID!!

by moevaughn 2008-05-19 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No Deal

Great.  I'll pass that along to Harold Ickes.

by Jess81 2008-05-19 12:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No Deal

You might what to Amend that with some fine print.

IT'S THE VOTERS. STUPID!

The Fine Print:
Unless the voters didn't vote for HRC in which case we will come up with a reason they shouldn't count, and unless that still leaves Obama in the lead, in which case we will say the Superdelegates should overturn the election, and we are willing to exclude the voters that did not participate or voted Republican since the Democratic Primary did not count because those voters don't matter because they wouldn't favor HRC, and black voters shouldn't count because they will vote 90% for the Democrat anyway, so they shouldn't get a vote in the primary.

by Tumult 2008-05-19 02:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Lev, Lev...  You really should have stopped after Anna Karenina, because this just isn't up to your standards.

by neeborMolgula 2008-05-19 08:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

For those genuinely interested in FL Dem politics may I suggest http://www.flapolitics.com/

by nogo postal 2008-05-19 08:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Excellent news re the protests.  We don't need a 48-state nominee.

by Caldonia 2008-05-19 08:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

You prefer a 45.5-state one?

You know, how Hillary is disregarding FOUR caucus states and the half of Michigan that didn't vote for her?

by Reeves 2008-05-19 08:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Oh a comic.  Care to explain that tale?

by thebluenote 2008-05-19 08:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Seems pretty clear.  Her "popular vote" metric--as meaningless as that is in a process that mixes caucuses with primaries--includes Florida and Michigan, with zero votes going to Obama in Michigan (despite around 45% of the state voting 'Uncommitted' rather than voting for Clinton).  It does not, however, include Iowa, Nevada, Maine, or Washington.  That's the only way she can claim to be ahead.

by BishopRook 2008-05-19 08:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Senator Clinton claims to be in the lead by using a popular vote count that does not include the caucus states of Iowa, Washington, Maine, and Nevada.  Those four states never certified the vote totals each individual candidate got.  They did announce how many people voted, and the percentages each candidate got, so we can figure out, pretty correctly, how many people voted for each candidate.

But because there were no "certified votes" Senator Clinton is omitting FOUR STATES from her calculations.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-19 09:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Ah, yes....you'd prefer one who is a 10-state nominee.

Much better.

by Deano963 2008-05-19 08:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Nor do we need a "27-state contest" nominee.

Lucky for us, Obama's a 50-state strategy kind of candidate.

by BishopRook 2008-05-19 08:45AM | 0 recs
IT'S THE VOTERS, STUPID!

by moevaughn 2008-05-19 08:30AM | 0 recs
Re: IT'S THE VOTERS, STUPID!

you made a typo, you said her when you meant him, she when you meant he.  Need a proofreader?  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 08:35AM | 0 recs
No, he didn't make any typos.

YOUR candidate is the one so desperate for funds that she is accepting pawned bikes from little kids.

Pathetic and shameless.

by Deano963 2008-05-19 08:40AM | 0 recs
Re: No, he didn't make any typos.

No. actually, the definition of pathetic and shameless in terms of this diary would be using the wildfires as any sort of a analogy...

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-19 12:00PM | 0 recs
Re: IT'S THE VOTERS, STUPID!

Hi Anna,  I got two troll ratings for saying "It's the voters, stupid", an obvious play on "It's the economy, stupid". Why on earth does sticking up for Democratic voters deserve troll ratings?!  Please, anyone else who reads this comment and who agrees that all votes must count, please up-rate my above comment that got trolled. Thanks.  

p.s. This place is filled with wolves and sharks now. Heads-up, everyone.

by moevaughn 2008-05-19 09:06AM | 0 recs
all caps with no substantive point

is what gets troll ratings.

by JJE 2008-05-19 09:37AM | 0 recs
Re: all caps with no substantive point

actually, a difference of opinion is what earns troll-ratings these days...

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-19 12:01PM | 0 recs
Re: IT'S THE VOTERS, STUPID!
moevaughan,
Maybe there's some folks who are thin skinned control freaks that wish to stifle what you say. Kinda anal in my book.
by durendal 2008-05-19 01:56PM | 0 recs
Re: IT'S THE VOTERS, STUPID!

Would it bother you if I said, "It's the economy, stupid"?  Or maybe you never heard that before?

I wish I had attached my comment to KnowVox -- who, I'm sure, would not have taken "stupid" personally.  Why do you take offense about sticking up for voters?

by moevaughn 2008-05-19 09:10AM | 0 recs
Re: IT'S THE VOTERS, STUPID!

Why do you take offense about sticking up for voters?  Does "It's the economy, stupid" offend you too?  Just asking.

I just wanted to remind you in my initial comment that in a democracy, it's the voters who count.  No insult intended.  I do regret that you took offense though and that's why I wished I had placed my comment elsewhere.  My point would have been better understood.

by moevaughn 2008-05-19 09:45AM | 0 recs
Re: IT'S THE VOTERS!

I just want to apologize to you, since you thought I was personally calling you stupid.  I wasn't.   I thought you'd get it was a retake of an old campaigne theme.

so I'll drop the stupid for you, but it's still the voters!

There was a 42% turnout in Florida.  Compare to Iowa's meager 16%; after non-stop media attention and on-the-ground campaigning -- only 16%!!  A lot bigger percentage turned out in Florida, one of whom is my own mother, and those 1.7 million votes must not be disregared.

by moevaughn 2008-05-19 01:19PM | 0 recs
Re: IT'S THE VOTERS!

We should never disregard voters.  But the Florida primary didn't count.  Florida broke the rules--state Democrats laughing with their Republican lawmaker friends about it.  

It's not Obama's fault that Florida broke the rules, but it's neither fair to him nor to any Democrats if we allow Florida's results to affect the existing race.  Obama wasn't allowed to campaign there; to pretend that the existing results accurately capture what the outcome would have been is to disregard what has happened in state after state where Obama has campaigned.

by deminva 2008-05-19 03:51PM | 0 recs
Re: IT'S THE VOTERS!

How come the other States were not "punish" when they also broker the rules??

DNC is a club - rules is manipulative by their leaders.

But Obama's millions in fundraising... will put a wick in the DNC leaders eyes.

Florida is lost to the Republican's very smart strategist.

by SHIBAM8P 2008-05-19 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: IT'S THE VOTERS!
What the hell are you talking about?
by travelerkaty 2008-05-19 04:34PM | 0 recs
Re: IT'S THE VOTERS!

What's worse--the grammar or the logic?  Obama publically distanced himself from the DNC in a letter stating that he was not a member and asking that they not portray him as one.  The DNC is very, very Clinton friendly.  And you're right: They have had power to make and bend rules.  Harold Ickes, one of Clinton's senior spokesmen, was on the rules committee and voted for the total sanctions against MI and FL.  That was back when the Clinton campaign didn't think they needed MI and FL.

by deminva 2008-05-19 06:42PM | 0 recs
re: What are you talking about?

re: other states not punished

What above comment was referring to:  the states of IA, NH and SC all broke the same rule as FL and MI. (rule 11A, I believe)  DNC did not punish them.  Also it should be noted that the State of NH (where I live) put out a public statement that NH was fine with FL's new primary date because the new date still followed all the early states.

by moevaughn 2008-05-20 05:02AM | 0 recs
I hope they protest their legislators...

by heresjohnny 2008-05-19 08:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

I have no problem with these voters standing up for their votes to be counted.  Good on them!

But I do wonder two things:

1.) The article/diary mentions full representation.  Did they similarly protest McCain/the Republicans, since they lost half of their delegates in that primary?

2.) Why are they targeting Obama, rather than the DNC?  This decision was made long before Florida voted, and all the candidates backed the decision.

That said, I very much hope that Florida gets representation.  I'd be okay with fully seating its elected delegates, while stripping the supers of their vote (but not barring them from the convention or anything like that).  Same with Michigan.

by freedom78 2008-05-19 08:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Because Obama is blocking Michigan and Florida from counting, maybe?  You may not have noticed, but the DNC said it's up to the candidates (wrong, of course, when it's the DNC rules-but heh, who's counting - pun intended)

And you may have noticed, they haven't been counted, even with half the delegates.

by thebluenote 2008-05-19 08:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Actually Obama is doing nothing to "block" them.  Clinton forced the re-votes to die by insisting on limiting the re-votes to people who had previously voted in the first election--which they were told wouldn't count for anything.  And this is, of course, impossible to do, because it would require revealing confidential voting records.

The Michigan Democratic Party came up with a compromise plan that was acceptable to them, the DNC, and the Obama campaign, which would have seated the Michigan delegation and given Clinton a net delegate gain from the state, but the Clinton campaign refused to accept their proposal.

Clinton has been blocking the Michigan and Florida delegations from being seated far more than Obama, by refusing any compromise short of her own ultimatum.

by BishopRook 2008-05-19 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Yeah, Clinton is blocking the votes, because she wants every person who came out to vote to have their votes counted. The people came out to vote, so let their votes be counted. Obama should not have TAKEN HIS name off the ballot.

by Check077 2008-05-19 10:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

His error, clearly, was in taking Hillary Clinton at her word that no one was going to participate.

I hear that behind the scenes, she's arguing with superdelegates that that alone disqualifies him from the Presidency.  I mean come on, only a fool would do that.

by Jess81 2008-05-19 12:16PM | 0 recs
Not all of them...

Since all the candidates agreed that it wouldn't count, a substantial number of voters didn't go to the primaries.

Or is that logic totally escaping you.

Like the logic of Hillary AGREEING to not seating Florida or Michigan when she was the frontrunner.

How do you explain that?  Oh that's right, you can't.

by Regenman 2008-05-19 12:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Not all of them...

Since all the candidates agreed that it wouldn't count, a substantial number of voters didn't go to the primaries.

And Hillary's revote plan would have DISENFRANCHISED (see I can shout too!) all of these voters.

by CrazyDrumGuy 2008-05-19 12:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Obama isn't blocking anything. Every revote effort failed with the LEGISLATORS of each state.

Wait, I know...it was Obama's minions in each state who infiltrated each state and made that happen. Just like his psychic ninjas hypnotized the superdelegates for moving his way. And they also got the voters across the nation.

If you don't like the sanction against those states, go to Howard Dean and tell him you want states to be able to hold any primary at any time with all, some, or even just 2 of the candidates on the ballot, and as long as the secretary of state "certifies" it, it's a legitimate election.

by Reeves 2008-05-19 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

no, he blocked both, she agreed and he said no. That's why he's now being held accountable. Had he closed the deal earlier this might not have hurt him, but since it's so close and it's still up in the air, it hurts him.

by anna shane 2008-05-19 09:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

And do you have anything besides hearsay to support your accusation?  I know the people who push this supposed conspiracy are so big on CNN gossip and unsourced "insiders."

by rfahey22 2008-05-19 09:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

it was widely reported at the time, he didn't deny it, he made a claim that mail in votes wouldn't be democratic, or something like that.  Where were you?   Will this make a difference to you? did you think he agreed to a revote? Did you think she blocked it, and that he was trying to get one?  No, google it, you'll find his statements that were decried as contradictory at the time because he once cosponsored a bill promoting mail n voting, and he argued for it being fairer.  Something like this is never hear-say, hear say is he said she said, this type of thing is easily disproved if false.  Go for it, educate yourself.  Then maybe you'll start thinking that she's doing pretty good, she has a great shot at it, regardless of the premature reports of her demise.  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 10:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

he made the mistake of opposing a mail in revote. She agreed to a revote even though he'd been gaining ground and she had a safe lead, and she agreed to pay for it, she had some big donors who agreed to cover that bill. That's why he's seen as personally responsible for excluding Florida from voting in the primary.  It was his calculation based on he wouldn't win Florida and he'd have had a harder time claiming he was ahead.  He also make himself look like a hyprocite, because he'd previously championed the mail in vote as a way to include elderly African American voters more fairly and then he took it back claiming there would be voter fraud, or that those who'd voted the first time might be excluded. Now that the votes have been certified, it's only the delegates that are in play, and they may all get seated, or half of them, and then he wont' have a rationale for claiming his popular vote lead.  It's closer than anyone in his camp dares to admit. he needs to make it look like it's already locked up, so that when she gets ahead he can claim it's been stolen from him and go to the super's with the argument that there will be great party division if he's not given his 'rightful' win. It's all gaming, but if the voters do have a say, and if the decision is based on the map and on the popular vote, we'll get Hillary. Isn't that great?  A hard contest, she's shown her mettle.  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 08:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Indeed.

Mettle.

The most name-brand recognizable Dem in recent memory began with a 100-delegate lead, several party machine heads (e.g. Rendell, Bayh), huge donors and $109 million in the bank all in her favor.

With that, she managed to lose the lead, go heavily into debt, and lose to a one-term rookie who's weathered THREE scandals (Wright, Bittergate, Wright 2: Wright Harder).

That's who I want against McCain. An "expert" politician who's shown her mettle.

by Reeves 2008-05-19 08:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

no, seems you want the one losing to McCain in the electoral map, did I guess right?  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

I want whoever our nominee is to get all of our support so we can win.

The last time we followed "electability" and electoral polls 6-8 months out, we all jumped really early behind John Kerry.

Obviously, those things mean nothing.

by Reeves 2008-05-19 09:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

that's the best argument for waiting until Denver.  To me he seems much like Kerry, and they are close friends, and Kerry was one of the original senators to encourage him to run and to promise help and backing.  I predict that her polls will go up and his will continue to go down, in the electoral college map, and that by Denver she'll be the clear choice for a GE win.  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 11:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

There are no good arguments for waiting until Denver.  The last time a party went into a convention without a nominee and still went on to win was....

Well I'll let you look it up.  See if you can figure out why it's such a bad idea.

by Jess81 2008-05-19 12:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

how about we need to find who's going to win?   That will bring unity, if there is a real winner, who comes out of the convention with the entire party behind her or him?  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 12:27PM | 0 recs
The Democrat is going to win

Thats my prediction and I'm sticking to it.

by protothad 2008-05-19 02:23PM | 0 recs
Sort of like Bill in 92?

Again, that logical inconsistency problem that troubles all your posts.

Believing the electoral map now, but in 92 it was irrelevant. Trying to cherry-pick your data just marginalizes all your arguments.

by Regenman 2008-05-19 12:20PM | 0 recs
more lies from you

the Florida state party, with urging from Hillary's campaign co-chair, blocked the revote.

How low can you sink?

by JJE 2008-05-19 09:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Where's your proof??????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ????

by venician 2008-05-19 09:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

that was meant for anna

by venician 2008-05-19 09:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

The delegates will be seated.

It won't affect the outcome.

by really not a troll 2008-05-19 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

well, if the delegates aren't seated before the nom is secured, it most certainly will affect the outcome. So, you're half right.  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 09:02AM | 0 recs
I can't believe the kind of attacks

That are uprated in this diary.  Truly hateful, unsourced attacks against what is likely to be our eventual nominee.  What is the point of this?  Why is there so much glee on a Democratic Website Dedicated to Electing Democrats in trying to damage Obama?  I have to ask myself, what undercurrents are at play here?  Are the upraters Democrats?  Are they adults?  Are they familiar with politics?  I do have to wonder.

by Sychotic1 2008-05-19 08:45AM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

what attack? What attacks him? This isn't his character, it's getting the votes of Floridians to count.  You're being naive if you think blue collar voters who have been lifetime Democrats will accept being gamed out of their votes, once again.

by anna shane 2008-05-19 08:48AM | 0 recs
Are you reading the comments in the

same diary I am?

My brother and father are life long republicans and the posters in this diary have nothing over on them (and I haven't spoken to my own father in over a year due to his hate mongering).

by Sychotic1 2008-05-19 08:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Are you reading the comments in the

so, you're saying it's a kind of gut feeling but there are no examples in this diary?  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 09:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Are you reading the comments in the

You want me to quote?  I figured that all you had to do was look up.

by Sychotic1 2008-05-19 09:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Are you reading the comments in the

obviously I see no 'attack,; so  please do?  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 09:25AM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

What about the lifelong Democrats who didn't show up because everyone knew in advance it was an illegitimate contest that all of the candidates agreed in writing not to participate in?

What about their votes?

by Reeves 2008-05-19 08:58AM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

since the turnout increased by lots over the previous one, I'd say that that argument doesn't hold water. But, she agreed to a full revote and agreed to pay for it, so what do you say to that?  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 09:03AM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

Increased turnout happened in every contest, legitimate or not. So it's meaningless.

And the state or the party has to fund a revote. Not private donors. Both the state and the party refused. End of story.

by Reeves 2008-05-19 09:08AM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

Turnout may have been high historically, but it was nowhere near the rates of other states in this specific primary cycle.

by rfahey22 2008-05-19 09:23AM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

You mean like the IA Cacuses where a RECORD 16% of Democrats participated?  These primaries were much more Democratic than nearly all of the contests Barack Obama won, and as is typical of the scenario where democracy wins out, he lost bigtime.

by hornplayer 2008-05-19 09:44AM | 0 recs
Whatever...

I guess that's why he's ahead in every single metric: delegates, popular vote, superdelegates, etc.

by you like it 2008-05-19 09:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Whatever...

"Whatever, he's ahead."  Great, great counterpoint.

by hornplayer 2008-05-19 10:08AM | 0 recs
In a democracy,

the one who is ahead of his or her competitors wins.  Obama is ahead by every metric, and he is going to win.

I think democracy is doing just fine.

by you like it 2008-05-19 10:20AM | 0 recs
Re: In a democracy,

actually the one that wins wins. She's ahead in several, in polled Democratic primary voters, in certified votes, and in polls against McCain that reflect the electoral college.  He's ahead in pledged delegates, and if Florida and Michigan's certified votes aren't counted, the popular vote without those two states.  One poll that says a lot, more than 70 percent of voters do not want anyone declared victor before Denver, or before one or the other of them concedes. That's rather a telling one. She's also ahead in the number of her staff in waiting, and in years of their collective experience. She beats him nearly very time at making public responses to national and international crises and happenings.  There are many ways of counting, but don't count her out unless you're trying to avoid admitting that your fellow has yet to close the deal. I'd suggest her debate her and demonstrate his superior qualifications for the job.    And show he isn't afraid, or refrain from his eagerness to debate John, the contrast is unsettling.  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 10:51AM | 0 recs
Polls are not Democracy.

The only polls that matter are on election day.

He's only behind in popular vote if you count MI and FL, give him zero votes in MI, and exclude four caucus states from the total.

So, by counting two contests that weren't recognized by the sanctioning organization (giving him zero votes in one of them), and excluding four that were legitimate, you get a Hillary Clinton popular vote victory.  Well hooooray democracy.

That's aside from the fact that popular vote is a flawed measure for determining the nominee anyway.

I say let it go on till the convention as long as both are attacking McCain and not each other.  That wouldn't bother me one bit.

by you like it 2008-05-19 11:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Polls are not Democracy.

so, what's your point?  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 12:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Whatever...

Actually, that's the perfect counterpoint to almost every diary recommended on this blog. Lot's of smoke and mirrors, hiding a simple fact: Obama's already won.

by Rationalisto 2008-05-19 04:44PM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

I know you know our response, so why even ask?  

MI has open primaries.  Many democrats voted in the republican primary since the DNC and Hillary Clinton told them their Dem primary vote would not count.  Those people would be ineligible to cast ballots in any revote under DNC rules.  So both the circumstances and the pool of eligible voters would not be the same.  Thus it wouldn't be a true revote.  

People who took Hillary Clinton at her word when she said that "It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything" would be 'disenfranchised' under the proposed revote.

by semiquaver 2008-05-19 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

Not only that, but approximately 2 million people stayed home between FL and MI, according to one study:

http://www.dcourage.com/Nini%20-%20Probl em%20with%20Existing%20FL%20and%20MI%20P rimaries.pdf

by rfahey22 2008-05-19 09:39AM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

since I don't know, why don't you list the so-called attacks in this diary?  Could it be there are none?  

by anna shane 2008-05-19 12:37PM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

Show me where I said anything about attacks.  

Everyone you're arguing with isn't the same person.

by semiquaver 2008-05-19 09:54PM | 0 recs
her supporters blocked the revote

you need to be protesting DINO Wasserman-Schulz.

by JJE 2008-05-19 09:41AM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

Exactly as Anna Shane noted below, the FL turnout was well above past turnouts--33% higher from what I recall!  So I don't think there were many "lifelong Democrats" who didn't show up to vote as you suggested--and that's likely because they were voting on a tax matter on the very same ballots.  

by ChargedFan 2008-05-19 12:45PM | 0 recs
Re: I can't believe the kind of attacks

Are you from Florida?

by berkelbees 2008-05-19 01:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Its awfully silly to protest at Obama events when it was Florida Democrats who violated the DNC rules that they previously agreed to knowing full well what the consequences would be.

Maybe Florida Democrats should protest their own elected officials who were dumb enough to change their primary date and thereby nullify their votes.

by WellstoneDem 2008-05-19 09:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

I will be one of them at the Orlando rally!

by grlpatriot 2008-05-19 09:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Yeah, grl!

by Tolstoy 2008-05-19 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

For the sake of our discussion, would you mind providing some kind of source documenting the planned protests?  Of course I believe that these protests will occur, I'd just like to read about them more.  This can't be all based on word of mouth.

by semiquaver 2008-05-19 09:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Awesome!  Thank you for helping fight for the voices of Floridian voters.  It seems these days that that's the last thing anyone cares about.

by hornplayer 2008-05-19 09:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't
Breaking...photo of protester..
http://memewatch.com/thelist/archives/pi x/morans.jpg
by nogo postal 2008-05-19 09:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Memo to Florida: Obama is not in charge of who gets seated, and even if he asked for them to be fully seated, the DNC would likely still want to impose a penalty to avoid chaos in 2016.

by mattw 2008-05-19 09:11AM | 0 recs
If Sen. Clinton cared about Florida
she would have campaigned there.
Floridians will NEVER forgive that snub.
by notme54 2008-05-19 09:13AM | 0 recs
Re: If Sen. Clinton cared about Florida

lolwut?  You mean she followed party marching orders?

by hornplayer 2008-05-19 09:38AM | 0 recs
Re: If Sen. Clinton cared about Florida

Sorry, the rules--no delegates and no campaigning--need to either count or not count.

by CrazyDrumGuy 2008-05-19 12:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

I really wish I could be there, but I'm leaving Tampa tonight for Sioux Falls, starting an internship with the HRC campaign.

~90% of Florida voters who participated in the primary thought it was legitimate.  They want it to count.  Barack Obama shouldn't expect too much adulation 'round these parts...I wonder if they'll bus people all the way from Chicago?

by hornplayer 2008-05-19 09:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

where's your proof?

by venician 2008-05-19 09:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Whoops, this is where I meant to post this:

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2008/03/b y-adam-c-smith.html

by hornplayer 2008-05-19 10:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2008/03/b y-adam-c-smith.html

Shock of all shocks!

by hornplayer 2008-05-19 10:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

More than three out of four Florida Democrats say it's "very important" that Florida's delegates count toward the nomination, and one in four said they would be less likely to support the ultimate Democratic nominee if Florida's delegates don't count.

Everyone needs to read this if they want to get an understanding of how FL voters feel.

by hornplayer 2008-05-19 10:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

OK...let's say we let the votes stand as is.  What is stopping other states from doing exactly the same thing in 2012??

by hootie4170 2008-05-19 11:52AM | 0 recs
Shame?

I expect that being used as a talking point for selfish, idiotic gerrymandering for an entire primary campaign and beyond will have some impact on states trying this in the future.  Remember, they're going to be seated, but only after becoming irrelevant.

Most people from those states that I've talked to just wanted people to stop drawing attention to their gaffe.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-19 12:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Shame?

But it  is not the people from the states who would make this decision, it is the state government...shame to most government officials does not act like a strong deterrent.

by hootie4170 2008-05-19 12:23PM | 0 recs
No, but losing elections is.

The clear path for the people of those states is to start tossing out incumbants that play dice with their primary eligability.  

If these politicians aren't moved by shame for what they've done, then perhaps... other methods should be used.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-19 12:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

John McCain and the GoP are laughing at all of us.  Way to go Hillary Supporters.

by brathor 2008-05-19 10:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't
I'm a Florida voter and an Obama supporter.  Senator Obama had nothing to do with the DNC decision to penalize Florida for moving up
the primary here.  
by needtoknow 2008-05-19 11:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Yes, but he had a hand in deliberately not resolving the situation in FL and MI.

by grlpatriot 2008-05-19 11:37AM | 0 recs
i find no evidence that the obama campaign...

ever spent any time trying to advise florida or michigan democrats how to proceed, and i generally think i'm well connected.  you clearly know something i don't, so could you please provide evidence for your assertion?  it doesn't make any sense to me, sense i have found the obama campaign to be extraordinarily disciplined and this would be outside the purview of the campaign's plan.

any credible evidence would do...

by bored now 2008-05-19 11:45AM | 0 recs
evidence that obama thwarts revote

Here's some for starters. From BTD on TalkLeft:

Obama Camp Resisting Revotes

Obama Opposes Revote In Michigan

by grlpatriot 2008-05-19 12:17PM | 0 recs
got anything that isn't idle speculation?

we had already established that this was a meme pushed by hillary's campaign.  some people bought it and some people didn't.  call me skeptical.  got any real evidence that verifies your and btd's opinion that the obama campaign deviated from their day to day tasks to influence in any way what the state parties and legislatures did?

again, any evidence will do...

by bored now 2008-05-19 12:25PM | 0 recs
Re: got anything that isn't idle speculation?

The mere fact that Obama would not agree to any type of revote in either FL or MI is evidence enough.

by grlpatriot 2008-05-19 01:35PM | 0 recs
for you, that appears to be true...

obviously, i have different standards.  i've never seen the campaign deviate from their plan -- and his commenting one way or another would be quite a deviation.  so while you appear to expect that barack would allow an opponent to dictate how he runs his campaign, i observe that he does not -- which is why he's better prepared to face the republicans...

by bored now 2008-05-19 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: evidence that obama thwarts revote

BTD is a legitimate source of "evidence?" Please, he turns the spin cycle up to "extra high" every time he posts.

by CrazyDrumGuy 2008-05-19 12:40PM | 0 recs
that would be fine if he actually cited evidence..

for the claim that barack stopped the revote.  grlpatriot knows better -- no one in florida was really interested in a fourth election day this year, even if someone had ponied up the money to pay for it.

the fact that hillary offered to pay for this -- when she was already in considerable debt with many hard working people in this country -- shows how dishonest the clinton campaign has been about this from the beginning.  they simply had no interest in resolving this issue because it was the only thing they had to stay in the race.  if anyone needed further proof of hillary's incredible bad judgment, here ya have it...

by bored now 2008-05-19 12:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

How much do you want to bet that the votes of Florida and Michigan will be counted and they will be represented at the convention?

This whole FL/MI situation is nonsense.  Obama understands that he has to fight for the two states, which is why he's actually GOING to the two states.

But because he is not her, I guess that's a bad thing huh?

Jeez.

by RussTC3 2008-05-19 11:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Not this again!

The delegates from Florida will be seated!

by spacemanspiff 2008-05-19 11:45AM | 0 recs
It doesn't matter...

...what Obama or Clinton want regarding Florida.  This is a DNC issue, and they will have to enforce some sort of consequence because Florida broke the DNC rules.  If not what stops states in 2012 from doing exactly the same thing??  

by hootie4170 2008-05-19 11:50AM | 0 recs
Re: It doesn't matter...

Maybe the DNC should try addressing the legitimate concerns of those states, rather than just punishing them.

by therealdeal 2008-05-19 06:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

How is any of this Obama's fault?

He didn't violate the rules or try to change em midstream.  He hasn't rejected an offer that was fair by the Michigan committee, but Hillary did.  He never had a choice on this other than to agree to what was offered by the DNC and the two states who violated the rules.  He has stuck to his word, and my one time nominee has not. I feel bad that Hillary has not been true to the pledge, or the people of these two states.

In short, you people are upset with the wrong person.  I'd be very surprised to see a protest at all, though I'm sure there's gonna be plenty of peeps voicing their desire to be seated.  What the heck is there to protest?

by Chelseain32 2008-05-19 11:56AM | 0 recs
On to the wreck list!

Without any supporting source, anything beyond Tolstoy's assertions that there will be protests awaiting Obama.

There will be only a few protests, he'll be shown a lot of love by the Floridians.  I speak with the voice of authority, just like Tolstoy.

by obscurant 2008-05-19 11:57AM | 0 recs
obama's a hot ticket in florida right now...

the tampa event had it's size increased twice now, and the other locations also had to have the number of tickets increased over their original size.  the funny thing is that a number of elected officials are clamouring to be on the "invited guest" list, which i'm sure the campaign will accommodate as it can.

again, we find democratic congressional candidates being way-laid in their efforts to raise funds outside of florida with people overly concerned about these issues.  i suspect several good progressive candidates will go down this fall simply because they couldn't raise enough money to be competitive due to hillary making florida her own private whipping boy...

by bored now 2008-05-19 12:07PM | 0 recs
Re: obama's a hot ticket in florida right now...

<snark>Tampa event's a hot ticket with all the protestors fighting mad that their votes aren't counted (yet). </snark>

This entire thread has too much of the outsider role, thanks for providing more FL info.

by obscurant 2008-05-19 12:25PM | 0 recs
Interesting


   the diarist wants Clinton to be our nominee, despite the fact that she wrote off several states.

  And wants to punish Obama b/c he agreed to the rules and followed them. Nice.

by southernman 2008-05-19 12:05PM | 0 recs
What about the people in MI &amp; FL

who stayed home because they were told their votes wouldn't count? The one person who had power include MI & FL in the primary was Clinton She was the presumptive nominee with unprecedented political capital and major support of the rules committee. The only reason she suddenly cares about those states is she needs them now. People aren't stupid. A phony protest can't change history or the facts.

by grasshopper 2008-05-19 12:20PM | 0 recs
Re: What about the people in MI &amp;amp; FL

Don't you know, it's only disenfranchisement if you vote and it doesn't get counted!  DOH.

This drives me crazy, all those people who were told, even by Clinton herself, it won't count are the ones who are hurt the most.

Oh and the minor detail of Obama not being on the damn ballot in Michigan.  What part of this do people not get?  What part is fair about that?

by Ellinorianne 2008-05-19 01:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't
Looks more and more like the Convention in Denver is going to be packed with protesters pending what happens on May 31. In addition thousands of women are going to line the streets of Denver as well.
Count the Votes
by steve468 2008-05-19 12:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

I'm a little concerned - Tolstoy has reported these great rallies against Obama's disenfranchisement of the rank-and-file voters in Florida, and has forgotten to give us any information about where and when we should show up!

And now that I've tried a few google searches, I'm very much afraid that we also need to worry about the marketing ability of these No We Can't people because there's no sign whatsoever that these protests even exist.  

If I didn't know you were posting this info as a public service to the voters of Florida, I'd be worried that you might be a troll making up stories to spur a repetitive acrimonious argument about delegates and popular vote and whatnot that I see repeated about 27 times a day around here.

I also want to applaud the folks who have recommended this diary.  It's sad that substantive, issue-oriented, progressive diaries like this one don't make the recommend list more often.  

by travelerkaty 2008-05-19 12:30PM | 0 recs
But but but... Isn't it all over now?

by NewHampster 2008-05-19 12:31PM | 0 recs
Scene during H Dean's speech to NH Dems Saturday

Photobucket

by NewHampster 2008-05-19 12:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Scene during H Dean's speech to NH Dems Saturd
Wow, there's one lady there at that meeting that doesn't like Dean! Shocking that Democrats could ever disagree on something - this is truly revolutionary!
by travelerkaty 2008-05-19 12:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Scene during H Dean's speech to NH Dems Saturd

lol! That picture actually hurts your argument.

Hilarious.

by spacemanspiff 2008-05-19 01:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't
Yep...play picture games that Obama is Bush....
so Hampster..and all others...
don't forget
http://icasualties.org/oif/
by nogo postal 2008-05-19 12:41PM | 0 recs
Once Clinton agrees to a brokered deal...

on FL and MI on May 31, will this silliness end?  Why do I feel like it won't...

by quixote27 2008-05-19 12:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Are these "protests" funded by anyone?

by jontabb 2008-05-19 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Superdelegates to Obama: Yes We Can!

by haystax calhoun 2008-05-19 01:40PM | 0 recs
Offensive Assumptions

I think that all of you who are trying to pin this Florida/Michigan mess on Barack Obama are assuming that voters in those states are stupid and uninformed. Unfortunately for you, they are not. They know that the candidates were playing by the rules set by the DNC and that their state parties are responsible for ruining the legitimacy of their elections.

Frankly, I find it insulting that you would think that these voters are dumb enough to fall for your scheme of blaming Senator Obama for the ineptitude of state party officials.

by chicagovigilante 2008-05-19 01:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Offensive Assumptions

Somebody better tell those protestors in Florida that they know it's not Obamas fault.

by Scotch 2008-05-19 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Offensive Assumptions

I shouldn't even dignify that with a response, but I will. In no way do a handful of protestors represent the whole state. Deal with it. I bet some people would love for people to be angry at Senator Obama so that they could satisfy their petty bitterness with four years of a McSame presidency.

by chicagovigilante 2008-05-19 04:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Offensive Assumptions

Well, I suppose if we are using "Deal with it", you should deal with the idea that Floridians want their votes to count the same as you want yours to.  And since Obama made no push at all to get them counted through a revote or any other means, they naturally will blame him.  That, my friend, you should deal with the best you can.

by Scotch 2008-05-19 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Offensive Assumptions

It's not Barack Obama's job to clean up the mess that the state party made.

by chicagovigilante 2008-05-19 08:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Thanks Tolstoy.

by durendal 2008-05-19 02:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

How can trash like this get Recced? I guess it's not substance that matters, but rather whose "side" it's on that does.

by Darknesse 2008-05-19 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't
What makes this trash? Did I miss the convention?
Damn,why didn't somebody tell me it's set in stone that we can't act like the primaries aren't over yet.   What happened at the convention  with the Florida delegates, do you know? What was the overall delegate count for each candidate?
by Scotch 2008-05-19 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

It's trash because it's just a few lines of drivel trying to raise a rabble against the likely nominee.

Not nearly enough substance to merit a reccing. No illuminating points. No salient bits of logic. NOTHING but rabble rousing.

Rabble!
Rabble!
Rabble!
Rabble!

by Darknesse 2008-05-19 08:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Florida to Obama: No You Can't

Here is how much Floridians appreciate Obama's support during the campaign for counting their votes.  This is about his support of letting them revote and concern with finding a way for them to do it.  

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/florida.html

by Scotch 2008-05-19 04:06PM | 0 recs
Re:DNC is a club

How come the other States were not "punish" when they also broke the rules? How fair is that?

DNC is a club - rules is manipulated by their leaders.  But Obama's millions in fundraising... will put a wick in the DNC leaders eyes to do the moral thing.

Florida is now lost, thanks to Obama.

by SHIBAM8P 2008-05-19 04:16PM | 0 recs
Re:DNC is a club
I'm going to go ahead and assume you are a Republican troll, since I don't want to think there are Democrats who can write a post this illiterate and without foundation.
by travelerkaty 2008-05-19 04:38PM | 0 recs
Obama did not disenfranchise FL or MI

I am amazed at the ignorance of some people here who still blame Obama for the FL and MI fiascos.

The DNC (which has been and still is neutral in the Obama-Clinton fight) decided to punish FL and MI for breaking the rules.  Neither Obama nor Clinton played any part in choosing that punishment (although Clinton advisor Harold Ickes did).

I imagine folks here don't know this, but states that agreed to wait and hold their primaries later got bonus delegates for doing so.  That is the benefit of waiting vs. the punishment for jumping the gun.  Had they patiently followed the rules, both MI and FL could be getting pumped full of advertising dollars and picking the nominee.

Blame the office-holders in FL and MI, not Obama.  Both he and Clinton agreed not to count the illegal primaries, and Clinton only changed her mind when she won on the basis of name recognition.

by ScienceTeacher118 2008-05-19 04:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama did not disenfranchise FL or MI

It's willful ignorance, don't be surprised.  And Hillary encourages it.  As Ed Schultz said today, to a caller with all the real facts, "Hillary is just hoping that we're not paying attention."

by tibbs 2008-05-19 05:00PM | 0 recs
You're an ass

Could we stop blaming Obama for this already?

Jesus fucking christ...

by jaywillie 2008-05-19 05:55PM | 0 recs
As a very proud Floridian

I direct my anger at the fool of a party leader we have in this great state.  She is a total moron.

There is no reason why we should have the gop senator we have, the empty-seat MIA governor we have, or about three central Florida representatives in the House that we have.  

Leadership & strategy: MIA.

Obama was just working hard and playing by the rules.  To protest that is silly and futile since he already won and will likely win the state in the fall if he gives it the kind of attention he is doing this week.  Protest the pathetic FL dem leadership instead.

by Sam Loomis 2008-05-19 06:09PM | 0 recs
As Chuck Todd said

The Florida Democratic Party leadership is one of the worst in the country.

by Sam Loomis 2008-05-19 06:09PM | 0 recs

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