Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Article by Michael Barone:

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/barone/2008/ 2/6/puerto-rican-poll-power.html

A few questions:

It is clear that the rules of Democratic NATIONAL Committee determines how many delegates Puerto Rico gets.

But after that allocation, is the rules of the DNC or the laws/rules of Puerto Rico that determines how Puerto Rico's delegates are proportioned among the candidates?

My guesses, without reading the authorities:

1. The DNC rules determine the number of delegates that Puerto gets.

2. The rules of the Puerto Rico Democratic party determine how those delegates are allocated among the candidates.

3. The Puerto Rico Democratic party has no rules on the books for this purpose.

4. If the result in Puerto Rico end up making a difference, there will be strong-arming and muscling among Puerto Rican Politicians to make rules on the fly.

5. In the event of number 4 above, I give HRC an advantage with the opportunity to write the rules (and if no rule exists, a rule must be written on the fly by Puerto Ricans) for winner-take-all.

6. If the above is correct, and with FL and MI still on the table, this race is within 40 or so pledged delegates.

7. Because most of the upcoming states favor HRC, she has a pretty good shot 35%-45% of winner more pledged.

Thoughts?

Tags: puerto rico (all tags)

Comments

34 Comments

Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

No.

It's just appeared that way in the past because the primaries have all been wrapped up by the time Puerto Rico gets its turn to participate.

by DaveOinSF 2008-04-07 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

What authority do you have (the DNC call, the rules of the Puerto Rican Democratic party) to conclude that Puerto Rico allocates proportionally?

by ThompsonTOT 2008-04-07 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

It is true. Google it. All Democratic primaries have the delegates allocated by the percentage of the vote.

by kevin22262 2008-04-07 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

I have googled it and I have found both answers. In particular, see the excellent article by Michael Barone which suggests there is no rule on the books and that the delegations leader can deliver all the delegates for one party.

Simply saying "it's true" does not make it so.

by ThompsonTOT 2008-04-07 07:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

I have googled it and I have found both answers. In particular, see the excellent article by Michael Barone THAT I CITE ABOVE which suggests there is no rule on the books and that the delegations leader can deliver all the delegates for one party.

Simply saying "it's true" does not make it so.

by ThompsonTOT 2008-04-07 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Not so... Texas proved it.

(a) the caucus overturned the primary vote
(b) even the primary delegate allocation was not "proportional" ~ it was weighed by the turnout in the previous cycle.

That said, I do not know if PR is WTA !!

by SevenStrings 2008-04-07 07:51PM | 0 recs
by davisb 2008-04-07 07:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

It is not a winner take all primary. We've had numerous diaries about this in months past.

by mecarr 2008-04-07 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

What authority do you have (the DNC call, the rules of the Puerto Rican Democratic party) to conclude that Puerto Rico allocates proportionally?

by ThompsonTOT 2008-04-07 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

This is an old article that was already debunked, primarily by the chairman of the Puerto Rican Democratic Party...

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-chec ker/2008/02/will_puerto_rico_decide_ever yt.html

by davisb 2008-04-07 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

It is winner take all - was mentioned a while back by David Gregory on MSNBC

by njsketch 2008-04-07 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

See what I mean, the answers go both ways. I believe this is the case because there is no rule on the books.

In any event, there are only two options:

1. There is a rule on the books for allocation either propotionally or winner-take-all.

2. There is no rule on the books.

My guess is there is no rule on the books, otherwise the rule would have been trotted out by now and the matter would have been put to rest.

If no rule is on the books (and if you find please let us know), advantage HRC.

by ThompsonTOT 2008-04-07 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

dude, it's not winner-take-all. This issue was settled a long time ago.

by mecarr 2008-04-07 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

It's not...

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-chec ker/2008/02/will_puerto_rico_decide_ever yt.html

"Both Brooks and Barone are wrong. Puerto Ricans will vote according to much the same proportional representation rules that govern Democratic party primaries and caucuses in the 50 states."

by davisb 2008-04-07 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

I really don't get why they have primaries, but no electoral votes. However, I have learned that if a person so as much as lives in a motel for a number of days, they can establish residency in a state and vote. We should get a project together to get that done, but getting Puerto Ricans to move to Florida and get us elected. They'd only have to "live" there for a short time.

by DiamondJay 2008-04-07 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Dem delegate allocation rules REQUIRE each jurisdiction to use a proportional system:

See the delegate selection rules:

http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v001/dem ocratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/pdfs/2 008delegateselectionrules.pdf

"States shall allocate district-level delegates and alternates in proportion to the percentage of the primary or caucus vote won in that district by each preference, except that preferences falling below a 15% threshold shall not be awarded any delegates. Subject to section F. of this rule, no state shall have a threshold above or below 15%. States which use a caucus/convention system, shall specify in their Delegate Selection Plans the caucus level at which such percentages shall be determined."

"Violation of proportional representation: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits the pledged delegates or alternates to be allocated to a presidential preference (including uncommitted status) other than as provided under Rule 13 of these rules, or in the event a state party, in fact, allocates its pledged delegates or alternates to a presidential preference (including uncommitted status) other than as provided under Rule 13 of these rules, the delegation of the state shall be reduced by the same amount and as provided in section C.(1) of this rule."

by DreamsOfABlueNation 2008-04-07 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

I applaud DreamsOfABlueNation for actually citing to authority in making the conclusion that Puerto Rico is allocates proportionally. I do have one problem with this ...

The authority thats that: "STATES shall allocate .."

But -- Puerto Rico is not a state, it is a territory.

Thoughts?

by ThompsonTOT 2008-04-07 07:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Are you not seeing the posts above?  This has already been refuted by the Chairman of the Puerto Rican Dem Party....

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-chec ker/2008/02/will_puerto_rico_decide_ever yt.html

by davisb 2008-04-07 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Are you not aware that this is America? Or perhaps you are a Bush supporter and believe that whatever the leader says is the law is the law.

Just because the Chairman of the Puerto Rican Dem party says it is proportional doesn't make it so, in the same way that just because Bush says something or other is the law makes it so.

To understand what the law/rule is, you have to look to the authority creating the rule, such as The Call, and act of Congress, and Act of the legislature of Puerto Rico, etc.

The Chairman of the Puerto Rican Dem party may have his own agenda, he may be simply mistaken, or he may be right, but the rules in Puerto Rico are not the rules because he says they are so.

The only authority I have seen related to this matter has been linked above by DreamsOfABlue, but that authority references only STATES ...

by ThompsonTOT 2008-04-07 08:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

I'm pretty sure the Chairman of the Democratic Party of Puerto Rico is familiar with his party's nominating rules (which is a lot different than saying those rules somehow emanate from his high-power decree).  He knows what he's talking about.

This has been debunked, the writer of Washington Post fact check article linked above contacted Barone after being informed of the nominating rules by the Chairman of the Democratic Party of Puerto Rico and Barone backed off his mistaken assertion.

by davisb 2008-04-07 08:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Here are the nominating rules, linked to in that Fact Check article, put out by the Dem Party in Puerto Rico:

http://www.prideintheparty.org/pdf/PR.pd f

"The Delegate Selection Plan for Puerto Rico provides for its pledged delegates to be allocated proportionally to presidential preferences based on Senatorial District Caucuses on June 7, 2008. "

by davisb 2008-04-07 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

You are, of course, right on the technical point that PR is not a state.  However, I don't think Hillary could make a string principled argument that appropriating all of the delegates from the territory would be in keeping with the spirit of these rules.  It looks like poor drafting to me and  don't think many Super's would let Hillary get away with taking those votes based solely on a technicality.  Additionally, the rules drafted by the PR party did state that the representation will be proportional.  Of course these rules were drafted when the territory was holding a caucus and not a primary, so I guess you could challenge proportionality on that basis if you wanted to as well:

http://www.prideintheparty.org/pdf/PR.pd f

"The Delegate Selection Plan for Puerto Rico provides for its pledged delegates to be allocated proportionally to presidential preferences based on Senatorial District Caucuses on June 7, 2008.

District-level delegates and alternates will be selected by Senate District Electors in Senate District Caucuses at the Puerto Rico Democratic Assembly on June 21, 2008. Puerto Rico's Democratic Assembly, an equivalent of a State Convention, will select the unpledged add-on delegate, pledged party leader and elected official delegates and at-large delegates and alternate on June 21, 2008. In addition, Puerto Rico's delegation includes unpledged delegates."

by DreamsOfABlueNation 2008-04-07 08:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

I think this would settle the matter, but ONLY IF Puerto Rico does not have a tradition of winner take all. If it does, HRC is in a strong position.

by ThompsonTOT 2008-04-07 08:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Fair enough.  Who says that Obama and Clinton supporters can't work together : ).  I look forward to doing more work with you in Nov. to send McCain into retirement.

by DreamsOfABlueNation 2008-04-07 08:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Puerto Rico does have a tradition of the winner taking every delegate, but only because, in every other nominating contest, the nominee has already been determined by the time PR votes and so only one candidate remains on the ballot.

The rules, however, allocate the delegates proportionally, and so in this contested contest, Puerto Rico will not be winner take all.

All of this was explained very clearly in the Washington Post article linked to above.  

by davisb 2008-04-07 08:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

What is the tradition in other contested elections?

by ThompsonTOT 2008-04-07 08:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Since proportional allocation was adopted, there's never been a contested contest, with the exception of 1988, where the primary vote was "non-binding"...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht ml?res=940DE4D81231F932A15750C0A96E94826 0

The nominee had already been determined in 92, 96, 00, and 04.

by davisb 2008-04-07 08:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

I mean other contested elections, such as "president" of Puerto Rico (Is Puerto Rican 'president' elected by some sort of electoral college?) Any other analogous local election?

by ThompsonTOT 2008-04-07 09:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Puerto Rico is a US territory, so they elect a Governor in much the way US states elect Governors.  Here is a run-down of politics in Puerto Rico:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of _Puerto_Rico

PR has it's own political parties who don't fit so snugly into the mainland Dem v. Repub divide, so partisan politics works a little differently.  

That said, the Dem party in Puerto Rico allocates delegates to the Democratic convention based on Democratic Party rules (ie proportionally), as explained in the Wash Post article posted above.

by davisb 2008-04-07 09:16PM | 0 recs
Stuff like this article is why barone

isn't a valid source, he doesn't know what is is talking about.  He didn't talk to anyone in PR to do this article.

by Student Guy 2008-04-07 07:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

it definitely is not winner take all

by sepulvedaj3 2008-04-07 08:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

It isn't.  The territory distributes delegates proportionally by senate district.

by Skaje 2008-04-08 04:16AM | 0 recs
What is more important

is that Puerto Ricans, if they don't live on the mainland are disenfranchised.  It is a farce to have primaries with no voting representation, and no ability to cast a ballot in the election.

Puerto Rico - by whatever name it is called legally (Commonwealth, Free Associated State) is a colony.  When are we going to deal with this?  
Puerto Ricans can be drafted (and were) and die for this country, but can't vote for a President who can choose to send them to war.  

I'm sick of all the parties who only pay attention to Puerto Rico when it's time to solicit votes - and then forget about the substandard living conditions, the high rates of HIV/AIDS, the unemployment rates on the island as soon as votes are gathered.  

by NeciVelez 2008-04-08 05:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Is Puerto Rico winner take all?

Don't forget v- MT and SD are last on the primary calendar anyway.  PR moved theirs up because it was a typo that originally said June 7 and they changed from a caucus to a primary. They are now on June 1.

http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=8 062827

by cmugirl90 2008-04-08 06:53AM | 0 recs

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