• on a comment on The will of the people? over 6 years ago

    hrc is claiming that red states don't matter. I hardly think that is an effective way to build the party or to win elections.

    BHO is doing what he can to win the nomination, which means winning delegates--not the popular vote.

    I'm more than happy to say that his stance on super-delegates is illogical. It's illogical because the super-delegates can't really overturn "the will of the people" because the primary/caucus system we have now isn't representative of that will.

    BHO won texas and nevada by the only count that matters in terms of winning the nomination--the delegate count.

  • Yeah! They lurch from one outrage to the next, so we can too!

    That's really just dodging the point. It isn't good when either BHO or HRC supporters do it. So instead of pointing fingers at DKos, maybe we should take the higher ground.

  • comment on a post Fuzzy Math and the Will of the People over 6 years ago

    That's a fair point. It's clear that BHO wants to have it both ways. But, for the same reason that BHO is wrong to attack superdelegates for being untied to delegate totals (I'm ignoring, for the moment, the shifting definitions regarding Sen. Kennedy superdelegate endorsement...), it is wrong to claim that HRC "wins" states based on popular vote totals.

    This process is hardly a democratic one. The delegate totals--the only way to win or lose the nomination--bear only a passing resemblance to "the will of the people." Thus, it is wrong to claim that the superdelegates must follow the other delegate totals, and it is wrong to use the popular vote as the standard for winning states.

    But, yes, you are correct about BHO's shifting demographics. I would add to your statement, however, that HRC makes a similar logical fallacy in her claiming victory in states where she lost the delegate count.

  • Once again, I'm not arguing that the superdelegates shouldn't follow their own judgement. I'm arguing that if you believe that the superdelegates should not be bound to the delegate count, which, as you correctly point out, isn't a good determination of the "will of the people", then "winning" on a state-by-state level isn't a product of the popular vote as much as a simple count of delegates.

    The primary/caucus system, as it is, bears only a liminal resemblance to an actual estimation of the "will of the people", and, as such, winning has very little to do with winning popular vote total; it has everything to do with delegate counts. And, as the process is inherently undemocratic there is nothing wrong with superdelegates having their say, unburdened by some ill-conceived notion of "what the people want".

  • Calling Obama "two faced" is a little strong considering his argument is based on the same invalid logic used by HRC in justifying her "wins" in various states.

    I don't think you can claim that "this is how it is" regarding superdelegates but ignore that the primary system is not very democratic in other aspects. On a state by state level, Obama wins if he wins the delegate counts--that is the way the system is, and any narrative contrary to that fact is, in fact, false.

  • I actually don't know; did BHO and HRC tie the delegate counts in Missouri? I guess I should probably go check...

    I will say, though, that if BHO and HRC didn't tie the delegate counts than BHO is engaging in a kind of invalid logic.

    I'll go check now.

  • Exactly, it seems that the arguments on both sides are based on more pragmatic concerns--i.e., "my candidate should win"--than on logic. Though both sides cloak their arguments in some sort of logic--albeit invalid logic.

  • I'm sorry--and I'm not being saracstic or trying to imply some deeper criticism--I really don't understand; Is what one of the criticisims of President Bush?

  • comment on a post Will you phonebank for McCain? over 6 years ago

    Look, I think this diary is pretty much rubbish, as its quite clear that HRC is not "endorsing" McCain over Obama (not that I was thrilled by her statements).

    But pointing over at Dkos and saying that "they do it too" or "they do it worse" is not a response to the argument that HRC supporters should vote for BHO in the GE, should he win.

    Just because DKos is full of overly-rabid BHO supporters (or HRC haters) doesn't give licence for anyone else to be overly-rabid.

  • comment on a post You Don't Want Double Talk; You want Bah Blah Blah over 6 years ago

    Actually, he didn't wink and nudge anyone. The Canadians asked for a meeting with Obama's advisor, and then misrepresented what he said.

  • I'm quoting from mattw's diary here:
    The claims of the original story bear so little resemblance to what eventually surfaced that it is unlikely Obama even connected the story to Goolsbee's meeting, given that the talk of NAFTA took up only a few minutes of that meeting - even if Obama knew of the particulars of that meeting. (Given his schedule, also not a given.)
  • please enlighten us. do you have evidence that obama  did this?

  • OH MY GOD THAT IS SO FUNNY!!!!! Obama supporters are cultists!!!!

  • both sides have quotes. Both sides have evidence. Since we lack good standing to make a decision as to which one is lying, can we suspend judgement and not call Obama actions on NAFTA evil and horrible and icky and terrible when we really don't know what the fuck is going on.

    I think its pretty clear that neither side has much of a claim on knowledge of what happened.

  • Yeah! Great Orange Satan is an endless stream of HRC hate (which, by the way, is GREAT justification for an endless stream of Obama hate over here...). You can see how much they hate HRC from their Rec list:

    GAO auditors thrown out of Agriculture Dept. building
    by quaoar 118 comments

    This IS Rocket Science
    by Dick Durbin 227 comments

    Obama gets his nerd on in Austin.
    by Andy30tx 188 comments

    The American Legion Replied Today
    by possum 175 comments

    We're Going to Unseat You.
    by sarahlane 185 comments

    U.S. Dollar getting beaten like a rented mule
    by gjohnsit 247 comments

    My name is Rick Vilello and I'm running for Congress
    by Mayor Rick Vilello 95 comments

    Obama's open letter to GLBT America
    by Torta 673 comments

    And over at MyDD, things aren't so bad. The rec list a few hours ago:

    UPDATE - BREAKING: Canadian Embassy: Obama NAFTA call story is a lie
    by Bob Johnson 219 comments (219 new)

    [VIDEO UPDATE x2 +UPDATE 3] Shocker: Obama Campaign Reveals Fake Stand on NAFTA
    by susanhu 221 comments (221 new)

    Chosen One:The Truth Behind State Senator Obama's Rise [UPDATE]
    by dem dem 70 comments (70 new)

    How Obama Played the Race Card
    by FitnessNerd 85 comments (85 new)

    Obama and NAFTA....now breaking wide
    by Scan 56 comments (56 new)

    If you're keeping score, that's 4 Obama is bad diaries at MyDD at 0 HRC is bad diaries at Dkos on the reclist.

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