True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

(cross-posted from DailyKOS {oh noes!} I'm curious to see if you Hillary supporters react as badly as my fellow Obama supporters, go read the comments on my original diary if you want to reinforce your anti-Obama supporters destructive meme in your heads)

I've seen no one write about it.  I'm reading the quotes, and nowhere do I see Bill or Hillary blatantly say, when suggesting a joint ticket, that Obama would need to be the VP.  Obama has done a great job of responding to Clinton's opening dialogs.  But I've not heard him suggest offering the VP slot to Hillary.

update this diary's not getting much useful response, but if any Kossacks have any input other than Hillary-hate (we have plenty on here already, and I'm rather sick of the Obama-hate on MyDD, which I used to love), please read, and give some thoughts.  I think I'm going to go have a bottle of wine, the responses have been depressing me so far.

More below the fold.

Yes, the attacks from the Clinton camp are getting worse.  And yes, they cannot take the delegate lead legitimately.  But the more this goes on, the more it hurts Clinton supporters and Obama supporters.  Obama has done his best to take the high road, with the occasional slip (at least from some of those that are/were in his campaign), and that has reflected well.  What would be more taking the high road than forgiving the Clinton camp for their attacks, and offering her the VP nomination?

And if you are more concerned about being angrily protective of Obama than protecting our party, consider, if he did offer it, and she refused, that would reflect on her more negatively than him, since he is the one winning right now.

Worst case scenario, the offer changes nothing, they never respond, hoping they can pull out the win.  He can include a caveat that the offer is contingent upon her not trying to game the system by convincing superdelegates (and pledged delegates for that matter, possibly) to overrule the results of the democratically elected delegates.  

And yes, the DELEGATES are democratically elected.  The popular vote doesn't matter, even if it sounds harsh.  It's like the Electoral College.  For example, South Dakota would have a certain value in the Electoral College, whether it votes 99% Republican and 1% Democratic, the Republicans get no more value for that.  The Pledged Delegates are actually distributed a bit more Democratically than that.  And this fits in with much of the original arguments from the Constitutional Convention.  Federalists and States Righters.  Half of the people there did not want to lose having any influence just because they were from a smaller state.  That's why we have the Senate.

I happen to be a Pledged Delegate for Obama (of course not yet to the National Convention, we have more local and state caucus/convention stuff to do first), and I take my representation of the will of the Democrats in my area seriously.  You have no right (Hillary supporter or not) to discount me based on how many people in my area had the time, passion, anger, or other inspiration to come out and vote for Obama in my area.

But back to the original premise.  The divisiveness is hurting our party.  I have many friends I've worked with on past Democratic campaigns here who are Hillary supporters (and many Obama), and I will never hate them, and I hope they never hate me, but more importantly I HOPE that we will remain wonderful friends and continue to work together on many future campaigns.

Let's nip this in the bud now if it is possible!

Obama, offer the VP nomination to Hillary now, and let's see what happens!

Thoughts?  Flames?  Kudos?  Recommends?

Let's do this!

Tags: clinton, Joint Ticket, obama (all tags)



Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

I think that the vitriol online is ridiculous, and I'd love for them to offer the position to each other, but I don't expect it, even from HRC.  Guess only time will tell.

by toonsterwu 2008-03-11 09:34PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Well the Clinton Camp has voiced being open to a joint ticket.  I think Obama offering the VP nod to her now could end the squabble before it gets far far worse, and carries into effecting hurting many other elected officials when they have to side as superdelegates at the convention.  They don't want their voters holding their choice against them either.  Clinton can not win without superdelegates overturning the pledged delegates at this point, it really is almost entirely a forgone conclusion.  Obama forgiving the attacks now, before they get more vitriolic, could repair a lot.

by rustybias 2008-03-11 09:46PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Are you assuming that she'd accept the offer, or that just offering will end the negativity?

Because I'm not at all convinced she'd accept (or that he would).

by freedom78 2008-03-11 09:51PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Nope, read my whole post, it mentions that if she rejected it, Obama would have points for trying to create party unity.  If she did not respond, and let the contest drag on, hoping to eek out a win, it would sit in the public conscious that she ignore it.  Let her come out and say she will only run as President, rather than let her supporters decide Obama thinks he's too good to run with her at all.

by rustybias 2008-03-11 10:01PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Whoops...I was referring to your comment, without realizing you were the diary author.  

by freedom78 2008-03-11 10:17PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

I don't think Hillary needs to drop out, but the process can be carried out without either candidate hurting the others chances in November.  

There have been a number of people who claim they'll vote for McCain or a third party/independent candidate, should their candidate lose.  The fiercer this contest rages, and the more negative, the more entrenched such opinions will become.  I don't know if they're full of hot air, trying to bully or threaten up a few more votes for their candidate (and I truly am referring to both sides when I say that).  As much as such bullying is troubling, it's not nearly as much so as the prospect of President McCain completing Bush's vision of invading Iran, insulating the wealthy at the expense of the poor, and continuing a general foreign policy of arrogance.

by freedom78 2008-03-11 09:50PM | 0 recs

My company just hosted a McCain townhall, I got to watch first hand how he is quietly working on gaining support and funds under the radar while we kill each other.  I am worried.  Not about Hillary, about McCain.

by rustybias 2008-03-11 09:53PM | 0 recs
Re: YES!

They all get funds under the radar!

by LCasey 2008-03-12 12:30AM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

"There have been a number of people who claim they'll vote for McCain or a third party/independent candidate, should their candidate lose.  The fiercer this contest rages, and the more negative, the more entrenched such opinions will become."

I can tell you that in SC, this is quite the vibe in many conversations and I don't believe hot-air has any place in it. Since I am on the state line of SC and NC, this has been a real thought process of Democrat supporters with the unending bickering.

by LCasey 2008-03-12 12:29AM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Nice...  I didn't expect any better on here, and I've been reaffirmed!  Obama supporters are not afraid, they are angry, and getting more so day by day.  This is saddening to me.  We have so much hope, and we don't need anger poisoning it.  Clinton has no real chance of getting the nomination, other than via superdelegates overturning the will of the pledged delegates.  See my comments on that hurting the people, and hurting the superdelegates.  Not to mention dragging out the election, if the negative campaigning continues, hurting the superdelegates that are elected officials, no matter who they vote for.

by rustybias 2008-03-11 09:51PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

In what way has Obama been whining about this?

by freedom78 2008-03-11 10:05PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

"Supporters" I can agree with, in many cases.

But I haven't seen Obama suggest that she should quit the race.

by freedom78 2008-03-11 10:15PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Kind of like Clinton's surrogates have done the brunt on the negative campaigning?  Come on!  Which of his surrogates have asked her to drop out? (I bet there are a couple)

But that's not the question of this diary, if she was given the VP slot, it would not be the same as dropping out.  Dropping out on your own, and hoping to be the VP (or maybe not, I'm not her) is not the same as being given the VP...

by rustybias 2008-03-11 10:36PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Actually, it was expected to lose TX, OH, and RI...   but it was projected as by 20% originally...  considering how significantly that changed in OH, and how TX became basically a tie, I don't think Obama was unhappy about the March 4th results at all...  I think his supporters (I am one, but I try to rise above the divisiveness) have been more angry about the increasing animosity from the Clinton side, and then vice versa, and then vice versa, it is a self defeating negative reinforcement cycle that I hope we all find a way to break before it undoes all the amazing increase in Democratic involvement we've had this far!  I don't want it to be too late for us to take advantage of the positives of this Primary season, and avoid the potential internal cancers.

by rustybias 2008-03-11 10:32PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Obama's not whining, and the fact is, he's winning the delegate count, which is what matters, and she hasn't blown him out in any of the ~4-5 'significant' states other than New York.  He's got millions of supporters everywhere, that's why he's winning the popular vote by a large margin, and will continue to in all probability, even without counting the caucus states that DO count, see my comment about Pledged Delegates being elected to represent all the people in that area.  If you want to discount Pledged Delegates, you are discounting me, but if that's what you're going to do, I can't stop you.

by rustybias 2008-03-11 10:27PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Obama has already been saying that Hillary would be on anyone's short list.  He doesn't give any indication of being averse to the concept, although I'm guessing it doesn't exactly thrill him either.

I have no problem at all with an Obama/Clinton ticket.  It would allow us to get past a number of issues.  And to those who decry a scenario where the woman does all the work and the man gets all the glory, I have two things to say: first, it's not actually going to be like that SNL skit from last week; and second, being Vice-President of the United States is nothing to sneeze at.  If this is how it plays out, more power to the Democratic Party.

by Steve M 2008-03-11 09:53PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

I wonder what would inspire her to accept the position.

1.) History Making
---The first female VP, assuming they win, but if she had a minimal role as VP (some do, some don't) would this be enough?

2.) Presumptive Nominee in 2016
---she'd still be younger than McCain is NOW

Aspects 1 & 2 are obvious...would it take more?

Some thoughts:

3.) Running Point on Healthcare
---it really is her issue...why not make her the "go to gal" on this part of the policy agenda?  It would give her another chance at what she tried to do in the 90s, and I think it would be a tempting offer.

4.) A "Major" Role
---To great evil, Cheney is an enormously influential VP...could Hillary be similarly influential (not in that puppet master way, but as a very important advisor)?

by freedom78 2008-03-11 10:03PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Democrats set the precedent for a powerful VP with Carter/Mondale.  Clinton/Gore was obviously in the same vein.  I doubt we want to go backwards on this.

by Steve M 2008-03-11 10:09PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

I know there's speculation that she might be Senate Majority Leader, but I think she'd have to leapfrog some senior candidates for the position.

So you have to wonder...if a President Obama is open to a powerful VP, wouldn't that be a more influential position?  I think it clearly would be, and that's a compelling offer to make.  To some extent, it really comes down to pride or ego or whatever you want to call it.  

by freedom78 2008-03-11 10:21PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Good argument.  However, we don't want a VP that folks think are the real power, like Cheney/Bush...  But I am confident in Obama's strength in not letting Clinton overpower him.  But she and of course her husband's experience, could really add some great value for him while doing the job.  And no, not like the silly SNL skit.

by rustybias 2008-03-11 10:22PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

1) Pointless.  Obama would be history making (first black president) Hillary would be history making (first female president) McCain would be history making (OLDEST rich white male president), no matter what we have a first for some demographic, and we'll have a female president in no time, even if the next is Obama or McCain, I suspect we'll have a woman within the next 1 to 3 presidencies, at least if it doesn't happen in my lifetime, I will have a really bad opinion of my country (or at least those that run the parties, uh, why could the Republicans only come up with old/rich white men as candidates?)...

2) Yup.  And a GREAT 8 year presidency (come on, can't we have a presidency where people get happier about them again?!), and she might manage to erase a lot of the negatives that a huge amount of the country has in their minds about her (Republicans, Independents, and Democrats have issues with her, a LOT of them).  Maybe the Clintons could reclaim political positivity again...

3) As an originally maybe Edwards leaning person, but my state voted on super-tuesday, I'd still like to see them both adopted his healthcare plan...  But sure, she'd be great, she was the last person to have any chance of getting any kind of psuedo-universal healthcare passed, I've not read the exact difference between both of their plans, but I worry about the megalith health/insurance/pharma companies messing up what either of them might do...

4) Hard to say.  I like many things about her.  I don't like the DLC, I don't like pandering to fear, I don't like pandering to the bad parts of the right-wing, I voted Nader in 2000 because of her husband.  I was in a state where it didn't matter, if that helps forgive me.  But I respect her and Bill a lot.  I think they could bring a lot into the equation to help an Obama presidency.  But then, they could possibly hurt it.  I know many MyDDers don't want to hear it, but we have a lot of corrupt Democrats, and well, the Clintons reek of it more than many others sometimes...

by rustybias 2008-03-11 10:18PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Hey, a single person with a positive response so far tonight.  I'm not sure how well that reflects on the idea...  But if it did happen, and folks had to accept it, I suspect folks on both sides would get more comfortable with it quickly (rather than the meme of Clinton/Obama, which Obama supporters understandably reject, since he's continued to keep gaining in superdelegates, and increasing in pledged delegates despite the March 4th wins), and not only would people who are just for their candidate get cooler under the collar, but many of us who've had friendships strained would be very relieved.

by rustybias 2008-03-11 10:05PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Seriously, if you really care about the party, and continuing to fight with someone ended up seriously hurting your party, rather than putting them on your short list, wouldn't that be the time to put them at the top of the list, make it happen, and end the fight?

by rustybias 2008-03-12 12:01AM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

I wouldn't support it, but I'd have no other choice but to vote for it.

by venavena 2008-03-11 10:10PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

Are you someone who might waffle if it was only one or the other?  Because as it goes on there are more of those, and will continue to be.  And if them coming together brings some of those back, that is worth it.

by rustybias 2008-03-11 10:37PM | 0 recs
It is not up to us
to provide the Democratic party with unity. It is up to the candidates to do that.
Too many Democratic nominations have been decided at the convention, and that is why the Democratic party has lost a lot of General Elections.
by fetboy 2008-03-11 11:26PM | 0 recs
Re: It is not up to us

Yes, you are correct, that is part of the inspiration for this post.  As things are going, it will only be decided at the convention, by the superdelegates either siding with the most likely pledged delegate winner, Obama, or with Clinton, and overturning the pledged delegates (even if Clinton continues the apparent plan to take over Obama already pledged delegates, I doubt she will get the lead).  However, arranging a joint ticket plan now, before the negative campaigning gets worse than it already is, I think will do a lot to help avoid the extent of the possible party divide we could otherwise be facing.

by rustybias 2008-03-11 11:42PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

I know we all shouldn't hate each other but Senator Obama wants us to hate. He says this in his email to his supporters about Clintons -

"They're not just attacking me; they're attacking you."

What kind of unifying, non-divisive candidate he is who sows hatred in the minds of supporters?

Everyone should be ashamed of Obama's hypocrisy. Having said that, I agree that we need to unite for party's sake even if it means voting for a hypocrite.

by Sandeep 2008-03-11 11:38PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

You don't get it, because you are not one of the people he is talking to.  I AM.  I have been discounted by the Clinton campaign as not mattering.  How should I feel about that?  Yeah, it hurts, but I want to try to not be angry.  I've been attacking by many people in my life, Republicans more often than Democrats.  But hey, I forgave the Republicans.  I can forgive Hillary.  I am not ashamed of Obama, I see no hypocrisy.  If you are, you are projecting.  Shall we go into lining up spreadsheets of the attacks from the Obama and Clinton campaigns (and, hey, we have to count the surrogates...  if we just do Hillary to Obama, she would have more, but both of them have been relatively mellow directly...  get the surrogates involved, and we can see the many times more, and worse things, from the Clinton campaign from the Obama campaign)....

But this doesn't matter, is your goal to further divisiveness?  How about if we paused the primaries after PA, so Hillary could end on a pointless win before the rest of the states that will go Obama, would that help?  Or no matter what, are you going to discount all the states that voted for him based on their local state democratic party rules?

by rustybias 2008-03-11 11:51PM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

The Clinton campaign HAS been attacking me.  See my sig.  I'll still vote for her, but it's getting old.  

by thezzyzx 2008-03-12 06:13AM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

YOUR STATEMENT..."Every time an Obama supporter makes this call for "unity," really meaning you want Hillary to drop out -- you just look afraid of her.  I don't think it helps Obama."

Speaking as an Obama supporter, I am not afraid of Hillary, nor in all honesty do I think that if she were to win the nomination, would she win the Presidency. Many people remember, regardless of gender or race as so frequently has been brought up lately, the comments Hillary made in the past while living in the White House as supposed first lady.

I believe it will come down to superdelegates because as you said, they will not drop out and I don't believe a unity/ticket will be formed with both of them. If Obama takes and stays on the high road, he has a chance of beating MCCain.

I don't believe America as a whole has forgotten good ole Bill enough to put Hillary in. Sort of the apple not falling far from the tree, in this case spouse.

by LCasey 2008-03-12 12:04AM | 0 recs
Too late

No way.

Clinton has crossed too many lines.

3 weeks ago - I would have said fine, but now?

Having Clinton as veep would be a DISASTER.

The entire fall campaign would turn into a soundbite  fest of Clinton/Clinton surrogates attacking Obama.

In 2004 - when Kerry acquiesced and picked Edwards, there weren't any Edwards soundbites about Kerry being unprepared for CiC (or Kerry clips saying the same about Edwards).

You simply cannot pick as your running mate, someone that has gone on record questioning your ability to be CiC.

It's a recipe for disaster.

It's Clinton's own fault that she's invalidated herself as a VP candidate.  

She couldn't convince enough voters to pick her - so she decided to play the "convince enough voters to vote AGAINST the opponent" game.   That's a one-way ticket to persona-non-grata-ville when it comes to veep selections.

Clinton as VP would be a disaster for the ticket.

by zonk 2008-03-12 05:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Too late

George Bush repeatedly questioned Ronald Reagan's readiness to be President during the 1980 primaries.  He ran TV ads with the slogan "A President We Won't Have To Train."  And of course, he savaged Reagan's domestic policies as well, coining the phrase "voodoo economics."  None of this stopped them from running quite successfully on the same ticket.

Either Obama will be able to persuade the voters he's ready or he won't.  If he does, then people won't care what Hillary Clinton might have said.  If he doesn't, he was going to have troubles no matter what.

by Steve M 2008-03-12 06:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Too late

But here's the fine line....

Bush did NOT favorably compare Carter's CiC capabilities to those of Reagan.

In other words - Bush left himself the wiggle room to say "I'm better prepared to be CiC than Reagan OR Carter -- but Reagan would be a better CiC than Carter".

Clinton, by virtue of her comments recently, has eliminated that wiggle room.   She has unequivocally ranked both herself and the other remaining contender (from the other side of the partisan divide) above Barack Obama.

That's a big no-no to me.

It invalidates her as a Veep candidate - and frankly, invalidates her as a Democrat, in my eyes.   It's not the same as Zell Miller giving aid and comfort, but it's in the same damn ballpark.

She ought to be ashamed and if I lived in NY, I'd be looking for an opportunity to primary her ass.

by zonk 2008-03-12 10:47AM | 0 recs
Re: True Party Unity - Any MyDDers support it?

He should make the offer, yes.  Highly recommended.

If negotiations don't begin now before this descends into pure garbage, we really could lose this thing and of course we'll split apart at the seams.

I'm not saying it has to end up a unity ticket or that we need to say the fight's over yet because it's not, but I do believe that both candidates need to float the idea in the interest of working together at the voter level.  Neither side has a lock on the other's voters, believe me.  National security, readiness, experience, and substance are  real issues and so's the arrogance of saying "I can get her voters, can she get mine?"

Also, we like the Clinton legacy and he's disparaged it.    

Speaking for me personally, I don't like the idea of Obama on ticket any more than Obama supporters like the idea of Hillary on the ticket.  But we have to start recognizing the fact that maybe both have accomplished a lot.  Given the reality that neither can outright win the nomination and the fact that there are serious growing divisions and the real option of McCain to either side, I thought it was statesmanlike and necessary for Hillary to agree to the idea of them being running mates since California.

Now, Obama's reaction at present has me offended.  I can't vote for someone who would disrupt the Party, and who has asked Hillary to quit BEFORE key votes took place.

Even while this battle goes on, the top figures need to think about real reconciliation.  Don't tell me Obama can heal the world's 1000 year old Sunni/Shiite division, growing Christian and Muslim divisions, and our historical racial divisions if he can't even reach out to Hillary Clinton voters in his own Party by at least floating the possibility of the VP idea.

But if he did float the idea, we'd have to start remembering all of our common goals again.  So I'm giving kudos to the diarist for trying to get a little bit of mutual respect and unity going before we reach a point of no return.  

by chieflytrue 2008-03-12 01:53PM | 0 recs


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