Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

Following my friend Lois Capps' endorsement of Barack Obama, it became clear that I had done her and other delegates a disservice by not disclosing information I witnessed at the Texas caucuses, and that endorsements should be made with the benefit of this information. After her endorsement, I wrote to Rep. Capps so that she can be fully informed in the event that delegates are forced to shift from one candidate to the other as the party forms a consensus behind the stronger of the two candidates.

I need to point out that I am not on the Hillary for President campaign staff, and that the campaign has gone to significant lengths to keep this dirty laundry out of the press. However, it is my strong feeling that we should not withhold evidence of crime, particularly since it is inconsistent with the public Obama image of being above "anything it takes to win," and it sheds significant light onto the otherwise puzzling difference between the popular vote and caucus results. Here are excerpts from my letter to Rep. Capps.

I was a volunteer field organizer in El Paso, Texas and investigated irregularities for three weeks after the election.

As a Democratic Coordinated Campaign Regional Director in 1996 and as a volunteer on campaigns in the 1990s, I have the ethical obligation to report what I saw in Texas.

When California 22nd CD Republican candidate Tom Bordonaro famously tried to suppress the vote by phone banking under a false name, many of us in the Capps campaign immediately said that we would walk away from a campaign if our side were similarly unethical. That moment kept replaying through my head election night in El Paso. Simply put, the Obama campaign made Tom Bordonaro look ethical.

Lois Capps is correct when she wrote that Sen. Obama is inspiring. However, many of the actions of his campaign that I witnessed and investigated are criminal.

I know this information is jarring, and puts DNC delegates in an uncomfortable situation, but if the time comes for delegates to endorse or get behind a consensus candidate, this information should be available. As I wrote to Rep. Capps, I apologize for not illuminating this earlier.

My observations in Texas were that caucuses were broadly illegitimate. In a few well-run counties, Hillary's caucus vote was the same or better than the popular vote, but in chaotic counties, she fell behind by double digits. While Texas is the only state to have both a binding popular vote and a caucus vote, we saw similar results in Washington State, where Obama's numbers plunged in the unofficial primary compared to the caucuses .

This stands out: only four major Texas counties were orderly enough to report most of their caucus results election night, and in three of these, caucus preference mirrored the popular vote (HRC popular/caucus): El Paso (69/75), Austin/Travis (37/34), San Antonio/Bexar (56/57). In the case of Austin, I have read reports that that both sides ran their caucuses well.

These counties had exceptional organizations, but it should not take heroics to run a fair election.

On election night in El Paso, it became obvious that the Obama field campaign was designed to steal caucuses. Prior to that, it was impossible for me to imagine the level of attempted fraud and disruption we would see. It was far worse than any GOP campaign I have organized against on the Central Coast, worse than Tom Bordonaro's, worse than Andrea Seastrand's, worse than the Dole campaign whose supporters vandalized our headquarters.

We saw stolen precincts where Obama organizers fabricated counts, made false entries on sign-in sheets, suppressed delegate counts, and suppressed caucus voters. We saw patterns such as missing electronic access code sheets and precinct packets taken before the legal time, like elsewhere in the state. Obama volunteers illegally took convention materials state-wide, with attempts as early as 6:30 am. Some of this was presented in a press release from Clinton Campaign Counsel Lyn Utrecht, but I witnessed worse than what she disclosed.

In one example of fraud that I witnessed, one of my precinct captains, an elderly Hispanic woman, called me to report that BHO supporters had illegally seized control of the convention. During our series of phone calls, Mrs. "A." reported that the Obama people took the convention materials and did not have a legal election of officers. Like nearly all of El Paso, BHO people would have lost such an election in this majority-Hillary, Hispanic, mostly elderly precinct convention.

The Obama people ordered Mrs. A. to sit across the room during the delegate calculation, and excluded Hillary supporters from the process. Mrs. A. overheard an Obama supporter call in a false delegate count to Austin. In a 13 delegate precinct where Obama should have won approximately 4 delegates, the Obama supporters attempted to award 19 delegates to Obama. This was not innocent. During my attempts at cell phone diplomacy, the Obama "chair" hung up on me, and refused to talk to the ethical Obama organizer I was paired with at another precinct convention. As with all major attempts at fraud that we identified, this delegate count was rectified in private at the county TDP headquarters, according to TDP rules, but there were no public charges or sanctions. It is my opinion that people should be in jail, but there is not a mechanism for this sort of prosecution, certainly not within TDP rules.

Although I have only volunteered in one state, virtually every Clinton staffer I have talked to has similar stories from other caucus states. While the Hillary field campaign operates and feels very much like typical Democratic campaigns, the Obama campaign is something new to Democratic politics. From my perspective, it looks like it has copied the worst attributes of Republican campaigns, but with unprecedented zeal.

Ironically, only in very well-organized areas like El Paso were we able to even identify the scale of the attempted irregularities. In these areas, we were also able to rebuff most attempts at fraud, correct fraudulent delegate counts, and protect our voters. In less well-organized areas, we did not have enough eyes and ears to identify or stop fraud, and our numbers plunged.

Although affidavits have not been made public, I have copies and records of the voter complaints for which I did interviews. Although the Hillary campaign has not gone public with evidence of fraud, the national legal team has approximately 200 such affidavits and 2000 voter complaints. The campaign intends to win the popular vote without airing these charges in public, but I suspect the campaign will provide authorities with this evidence upon request.

My own sense is that this information should not be withheld from delegates, since it both casts the Obama campaign as stunningly unethical, and it severely undermines the general credibility of caucuses. It also points out that perception and reality are upside down. The campaign that will "do anything to win," including the illegal acts documented in affidavits, is not Hillary's.

In fact, I was as proud of the integrity and transparency of the Hillary campaign in Texas as I was of the Capps and Clinton/Gore campaigns of the 1990s.

I would be happy to share records in my position with appropriate authorities.

It is true that elements of the Obama campaign appeal to our better angels, but, in the moment of truth when the Obama campaign echoed Republican Tom Bordonaro's, I made the personal decision that Sen. Obama cannot be our nominee.

I am positive that any Democrat who witnessed what I did would stand against Sen. Obama now, and I have faith that some endorsements like Rep. Capps's are temporary. This is wrenching for a Democratic activist like me who has served on county and Assembly District committees, but I cannot support a candidate with a criminal campaign.

Here at MyDD, I'll try to make time to answer factual questions

7:42 (pacific) Housekeeping note: I have to leave right now, but will check back in this evening.

Update 1

There have been some good question in the comments.

In this one, there is the question about a challenge by Obama supporters, lawyer/judge Don Williams. My position is that the rules should be followed, and the process be as transparent as possible. I understand that 77% of UTEP sign in sheet preference was for Hillary, after there were a few correction related to fraud from Mr Williams' side. I understand this challenge should be resolved by the state credentials committee, along with a large number of other challenges, prior to the Austin convention. As I understand it, the challenge states that the rules in the nominations committee at UTEP were misinterpreted. But what I saw was fraud, not a difference of opinion about convention rules. I would support any legitimate adjustment to delegate counts, be it from a correction of fraudulent sign-in sheets, or a correction of a faulty ruling.

This post raises a lot of good questions, too many to handle adequately without a new diary:

I've yet to hear any verified account of fraud. Two months, but nothign. Why after going for a month and half now on Wright do think the media would just shut out any attempt to challenge the legitimacy of the caucuses? Where is the reporting?! Why is it that you saw this, but no reporters, police officers, judges, lawyers or others who would be compelled to speak up about it and document it?

If there is evidence of this I want to hear it. This would be criminal and I'm not.

Finally, Hillary won El Paso by 75%. How with that overwhelming majority did you allow a minority to override the will of the majority? Even in the example of Mrs. A (you told us you witnessed this personally, but the only evidence you give is a person not named and the precinct not given), there was a majority of Hillary supporters. How did they let a minority overrule a majority? That doesn't make sense. Please explain it to me.

First, why did I keep quiet? I followed the campaign's guidance to resolve these issues behind closed doors. There were a few elements of this: the campaign's first concern was make as many corrections to the delegate count as possible within TDP rules, in TDP offices. Once the deed was done, an orderly audit benefited our side, and pushing these charges in the press would have created a circus (a la Florida) that would have shut down the process of verifying sign in sheets and delegate calculations.

Second, why no reporting? Because the press did not seek to investigate this, even though the Clinton campaign published the linked press release that we had evidence of widespread illegalities. I called a reporter from the El Paso Times who did not return my call. Also, this did not get pushed in the press after the initial press release because the TX Hillary campaign chose to trust the process and grind out the delegate count. Since the TDP is run by people who support both campaigns, there would have been a serious lose of face to air these charges, and would have strained the professional relationships between all in the campaigns and in the party. In the specific case of El Paso, I am told Chair Danny Anchondo did not want to humiliate leading Obama-supporting Democrats who he will have to live with for years to come.

Third, how did a minority faction override the majority? In the end, they did not. We had the best field operation I have ever seen, and in most cases, had a few trained people in each precinct. I should add, our organization was so overwhelming, the Obama campaign abandoned their precinct captain program about a week before the election, placing their bets on an election-day blitz by out of state organizers. We were also transparent, and included people with ties to the Obama campaign in our caucus training program. We knew that an orderly process favored Hillary. We would not have known about Mrs. A's precinct if we did not have trained people in the room. So, we were able to over-turn problems like Mrs A's precinct after the fact. How did the Obama organizers seize the convention in the first place? By intimidation, by physically controlling the legal documents, and by ignoring the legal process that called for an election of officers. They took the convention package and never let go of it.

Tags: Barack Obama, Caucuses, Hillary Clinton, texas (all tags)

Comments

280 Comments

Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Holy mackeral!

by alegre 2008-05-02 06:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Wow - no wonder they've done as well as they have in the caucus states.  Seriously - you've got affidavits to back all this up John?

Man we have GOT to get this information out to the Supers.  They need to know the type of folks they're throwing in with before they endorse.

Have you told anyone at the newspapers?  The media?  How do we get this information out to the decidion makers?

by alegre 2008-05-02 06:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I know this raises a lot of questions. I'll try to keep on them and update the diary with answers.

Yes, I have a number of affidavits, and witness lists. Any credible, diligent authority can investigate my claims.

I should add that I am sticking to discussing irregularities that I was directly involved with, or were in the linked press release. As I have networked in the campaign, I have gathered stories from other caucuses similar to mine.

J

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Hey John - Have you sent a link to this to the news outlets? Maybe the other political reporters like Halperin, Smith, Ambinder... ?

I could shoot them a note with a link.  I've seen you around these boards long enough to know you'd never post something like this without being able to back it up.

by alegre 2008-05-02 06:24PM | 0 recs
Go ahead
They might pick it up. There is definitely more than enough meat for a Congressional investigator or an investigative journalist to sink teeth into. This was a lot worse than the GIOP in FL '00. In a just world, we'd have all of our documentary film makers like Moore, Palast and Greenwald on this.

This would be a gift to a diligent party, there is a stack of signed statements just like Mrs. "A's".

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Go ahead

People need locking up down there in TX. I can't believe they're not only walking free after disinfranchising voters in their own communities, but that their guy is the one being portrayed as squeeky clean!

by alegre 2008-05-02 06:42PM | 0 recs
The very concept of a caucus seems FLAWED

I have heard similar stories from Texas, even from Obama delegates.

This is not something we can have in Presidential elections.

by architek 2008-05-03 05:04AM | 0 recs
Fox

Strangely Fox is the most likely to pick up the story.

by del 2008-05-02 07:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Fox

You are probable right about Fox....I'll send Hannity a link...have him take a look at this....this is outrageous!

John, thanks for sharing this info...and you are right, we need to get this out to all the news organizations...someone will pick it up...it is far to serious!

by Cruiser35 2008-05-02 07:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Fox

Yeah, there's an investigative journalist who knows how to get things done.

Here's a hint -- if you want Sean Hannity to push your story, you're not concerned about your story, you just want to get some hate noise on the airwaves to hurt Obama.

That's like an absolute. I'm sure Newton could have expressed it better. Either way, you expose yourselves as the worst of Liebercrats if you view Hannity as anything but a smallpox blanket. Yeah, it may keep you warm tonight, but don't forget the smallpox!

by Lettuce 2008-05-03 05:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Fox

The similarities between MyDD and Fox these days have been incredible.  Half the recc'd diaries on a regular basis could be written by him (and I know, because listening to him on the radio is one of my guilty pleasures -- mostly because I enjoy yelling at the radio -- I switch back to NPR when I feel like turning my brain back on).

by Pragmatic Left 2008-05-03 07:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Fox

Hannity? You would send this to that racist, scumbag who still thinks Hillary killed Vince Foster?  What kind of fool are you?  Why do you give those people any kind of ammunition against any Democrat?

You fucking people are nuts.

by Kyrial 2008-05-03 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Ok I thought this rang a bell guys.  I'm on the press releases list and get them as they're sent out.  I'm a pack rat and save them and here's one that went out the day of the TX primaries and caucuses...

Statement from Clinton Campaign Texas State Director Ace Smith

Across Texas today, we are seeing record voter turnout.  We are pleased to see that voting in today's primary is running smoothly and that Texas Democrats are energized and participating in the process.

In preparation for tonight's precinct conventions, the Clinton campaign has worked with the Obama campaign and the Texas Democratic Party over the past few weeks to ensure that there was clarity of the rules and that every voter has a chance to participate in the process on an even playing field.

Unfortunately, we have received numerous reports that the Obama campaign is violating Texas Democratic Party rules by circulating precinct convention sign in sheets in advance and are having them filled in now.  These underhanded tactics undermine the process that all parties agreed to.  

The Texas Democratic Party has issued a memo this afternoon once again clarifying that these sign-in sheets are invalid and that this tactic is a violation of the rules.  

We want every Texas voter to know that sign in sheets distributed before the primary polls close, will not count.  We encourage them to participate in their precinct convention by showing up at their polling location at 6:30pm.

We call on the Obama campaign to join us in repudiating these tactics, and to work with us and the state party to ensure that the integrity of the process is maintained.

We look forward to a tremendous turnout in both the primary and tonight's precinct conventions.


by alegre 2008-05-02 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

by alegre 2008-05-02 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I found one more - but John you're totally right on all this.  They sent out these memos but as far as I know that's the last time they mentioned any of this.  They might not feel as if they can press this because they're in the middle of a campaign but DAMMIT it doesn't mean we can't help people understand just what's been going on in those caucus states.  And TX is a great way to do a sort of quality check - if the caucus doesn't come close to what happened with the primary vote then something's not right.

Here's that second memo...

The campaign legal hotline has been flooded with calls containing specific accusations of irregularities and voter intimidation against the Obama campaign.  This activity is undemocratic, probably illegal, and reflects a wanton disregard for the caucus process.

The three most egregious categories are:

1) Irregularities: Prematurely Taking Precinct Convention Packets by Obama Campaign

Numerous calls have shown that Obama supporters prematurely removed convention packets from polling places.  Packets may not legally given out until 7:15 PM or when the last voter has cast a ballot in the primary.  The Texas State Party warned the Obama campaign in writing that they may not take these packets early or remove them from the polling locations.  The Party directed that these irregularities be reported to law enforcement "since they amount to criminal violations."  The Party stated "removing convention packets . . .  will not be tolerated."

A sampling of the precincts where this occurred are:

659 - Tarrant
709 - Houston
2316 - Tarrant
1205 - Dallas
3127 - Bexar
3082 - Fort Bend
18/224 - Harris
3221 - Dallas
87 - El Paso
851 - Houston
115 - Harris
470 - Galveston
388 - Harris
3000 - Dallas
1214 - Dallas
20 - Medina
205 - Walker

2) Voter Intimidation: Lock-out of Clinton caucus goers by Obama Campaign

Numerous calls have been received that the Obama campaign has taken over caucus sites and locked the doors, excluding Clinton campaign supporters from participating in the caucus.  The Clinton supporters have been unable to enter the premises to caucus.  In at least one instance, law enforcement was called and forcibly opened the caucus site.

A sampling of the precincts where this occurred are:

4401 - Dallas
2052 - Tarrant
4402 - Dallas
75 - Harris
18 - Hardin
259 - Harris
124 - Nueces
4050 - Tarrant
115 - Harris
6 - Roma County
78 - Jefferson
117 - Denton

3. There are numerous instances of Obama supporters filing out precinct convention sign-in sheets during the day and submitting them as completed vote totals at caucus.  This is expressly against the rules. The sign-in sheets were copied by the Obama campaign from the Texas Democratic Party website and taken by supporters to various polling places to sign-up caucus goers prior to the start of the caucuses


by alegre 2008-05-02 06:40PM | 0 recs
Well, you're not alone...

Really, John. I was in Nevada for their caucuses, and I heard first-hand accounts of Obama's Culinary Union leadership allies trying to bully members into caucusing for Obama... Oh yes, and many "activists" working directly with the Obama campaign did some really funny (not in a good way) business when they "ran" the caucuses they were assigned to run in Nevada.

In addition, I've heard from good friends who volunteered in other caucus states (like Iowa) about even more dirty tricks. It's a tragedy that all of this has happened, and that so many Democrats have been disenfranchised as a result of these dirty tricks. At the very least, the DNC should investigate these matters and make sure this never happens again.

by atdleft 2008-05-02 06:25PM | 0 recs
Part of SEIU right?

makes the story of their treatment of that nurses union much more likely as a pattern of behavior.

by zerosumgame 2008-05-02 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, you're not alone...

There's a very good reason Obama does so much better in caucuses. Is it also a coincidence that caucuses are the least democratic method of selecting candidates? Obama certainly prefers seem to prefer them.

by zenful6219 2008-05-02 07:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, you're not alone...

Interesting, I've seen numerous reports of Hillary's people using unfair tactics in the Nevada caucuses.  I've heard that her people pushed to close the doors ahead of schedule disenfranchising many voters, and of candidate preference cards being pre-marked for Hillary.

"Despite clear rules and timelines laid out by the Nevada Democratic Party that caucus doors should remain open and voter registration should continue until noon, the Clinton campaign encouraged their operatives to close the caucus doors at 11:30 am, a half hour before that deadline.  This caused confusion and led to people leaving the caucuses before having the chance to participate." - Obama spokesman Bill Burton

by Renie 2008-05-02 09:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I live in Texas, and this fraud is common knowledge to anyone who attended the caucus on March 4th.  The Houston and Dallas metro areas were complete chaos - no organization, no checking of voter cards to see if someone had voted earlier in the day; intimidation by over zealous Obama supporters.  Hours and hours of waiting with very tired people.  One caucus in Houston was not over until 0300am.  The took over my caucus by hook and crook.  It was a disaster for the Texas Democratic Party.  However, it did reveal to unfairness of a caucus compared to a primary.  We should abolish them all in every state in the future.

by mcctx 2008-05-02 06:49PM | 0 recs
How very true...

Caucuses should be abolished. They're discriminatory by nature, as only able-bodied people available in a set 2-hour timeframe can caucus. But in addition, they're also prone to this very type of fraud.

In the precinct I worked in Las Vegas, the Obama people running the caucus were deliberately trying to hide our Hillary table. They tried to register people to vote who didn't even live in the precinct. They brought in all sorts of food items & other "goodies" to lure people to their area... And they tried to count Hillary supporters for Obama when they were just trying to get the food & drinks.

Really, I don't know what these folks were trained at "Camp Obama"... But the Obama campaign needs to stop encouraging its "activists" to participate in these kinds of dirty tricks.

by atdleft 2008-05-02 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Sorry but i'll believe these very.. general.. accusations when i see documentation. If you have facts and details why not post them rather than simply posting general "There was corruption! I talked to people" and "All disorganised and pro-Obama caucuses were corrupt and fraudulent".

Its just fails the smell test more than a wee bit when you dont post backup to your claims, dont make detailed claims, dont post names, and are doing it from behind  the guise of an psuedonym.

And no i'm not calling you a liar i'm demanding proof as we in the reality based community require.

by cdreid 2008-05-02 07:12PM | 0 recs
Well, I live in Texas and participated

in a caucus in a very small county.  I saw what the Obama people tried to do in our county but our county was small enough and we all KNEW everybody that it was difficult to "game."  Thus, our votes were honestly counted and Hillary won 72% of the votes.  It very closely correlated to the popular vote in the primary that Hillary also won overwhelmingly.  

It would be very difficult to maintain integrity in the caucus voting if the precinct or county convention were large or unruly as they were reported to be in Terrant and Dallas Counties.

Because of what I witnessed, I am convinced that Obama has not honestly won a single caucus state.  Obama supporters were too intent on cheating in Texas for this to have been the first time they tried it.

by macmcd 2008-05-02 07:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

Post facts. Documentation. Not this libelous Bs. The "ooh its a conspiracy to get us" garbage is getting a bit old. Seriously. You support Hillary. Good for you and i strongly disagree but i wont be libelling you with completely Dishonorable garbage. Wont be lying about you. Wont be jumping on the spinwagon to spread flat out lies. These people.. Alegre and its ilk are leading you down the road to neocon wingnuttery. Complete lack of honor and integrity. Is that what you want? The kind of politics you want? Where truth is irrelevant and all that matters is who is willing to lower themselves, dishonor themselves the most in order to win? Because i know a lot of Hillary supporters and many more Ex hillary supporters who arent willing  to follow that path. They see it as becoming republicans.

Surely you and your fellow advocates are better than that.

by cdreid 2008-05-02 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

TR'ed for a personal attack on board members as well as the fact that you are countering John's completley valid post with absoutley true experinces (I was in El Paso as well) by calling Hillary supporters "conspiracy theorists". Unfortunatley for you, stories like these are coming in from across the country and across the state of Texas.

by zcflint05 2008-05-02 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

Heh

You mean tr'd for breaking the groupthink bubble dont ya there bubba? Must suck for ya being laughed at over at DK then come here and having people hurt your feelings with actual demand for facts and .. you know. Reality. TR Away bubba. Says a lot more about fear, weakness and irrationality of you and your ilk than it does me, obama supporters or honest hillary supporters.

by cdreid 2008-05-02 07:35PM | 0 recs
I only judge by what I personally observed!

I have not been influenced by anyone other than the Obama supporters I actually saw try to "game" the vote in my precinct and in my County Convention.  

I have complete confidence in the affidavits and voter reports that John discusses in his diary because I saw the same things tried in my County.

by macmcd 2008-05-02 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: I only judge by what I personally observed!

Then REPORT IT. Swear out an affidavit. Call the FEC. Call the Democratic Party.

Otherwise this is nothing more than baseless libel. Smear (and im not really talking about you or the other poster so much as the diarist).

Thou shalt not bear false witness. Good rule whether you're religious or not.

by cdreid 2008-05-02 07:37PM | 0 recs
Re: I only judge by what I personally observed!

I have!

by zenful6219 2008-05-02 07:39PM | 0 recs
Re: I only judge by what I personally observed!

yep, and the obama crowd sure is adept at smear and bullying and shouting down anyone.

here's a diary with multiple personal accounts, people that put their complaints in writing to the correct officials, substantiated. yet i can remember from the DKos days when dozens of BO supporters were posting whiny shit diaries about, for one example, 'i cried when i saw a hillary supporter take a BO flyer off a door someone just left there'. NO SUBSTANTIATION, from them or anyone else with the same experience, just hooting down anyone saying it was BS. screw registering a complaint, that diarist  just cried - supposedly. And anyone that raised a whiff of doubt, was TRd. I remember.

so stop your trolly bullying.  

by swissffun 2008-05-02 11:58PM | 0 recs
Re: I only judge by what I personally observed!

I want to see names. Not stuff like Mrs A observed this and some county chair. Pacific John says there are tape accounts. I want to see Pacific John send Armstrong or Beeton a tape that can be verified and played out on a stream here on MYDD.

If it was this blatant, we need to see some recordings by someone on youtube or somewhere else. And I still do not understand how a minority was able to get away with outright physical thuggery in front of a majority. Do you seriously tell me Clinton caucus supporters are so weak that they would allow this to happen right in front of their eyes?

by Pravin 2008-05-04 04:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

Oddly enough, your wording sounds like it could be directed towards thereisnospoon's diary over at dKos about irregularities he yelled about regarding I believe it was Nevada, and as of yet there are no charges.

So please, spare us the "ohhh conspiracy and dishonorable garbage" stuff because the Obama gang already played that song.

by emsprater 2008-05-02 08:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

Ya i forgot about the grand conspiracy to take the queen down. You people should really listen to yourselves sometime.

by cdreid 2008-05-03 01:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

See the video:

http://www.videospider.tv/Videos/Detail/ 3662885736.aspx

There are many more on youtube, but it's down for some reason.

by mrstas 2008-05-03 05:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated
Wow.

Your video has next to no hits. If it had shown a Hillary person misbehaving instead of an Obama person, it would have created a firestorm.

Thanks for posting this.

by Pacific John 2008-05-03 06:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

Just to be clear, none of these are MY videos, just things I've found on the net...

Original:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRO3KO6Ws 34

But here are more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dln_I_iwP nU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxFKPOzdd ow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLGoRNVle B4

by mrstas 2008-05-03 07:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

You realize that the three later videos show people peacefully counting votes, right?  In one them, some people are laughing and slapping fives.  This is not what normally occurs when a minority is trying to subvert the will of the majority.

You're videos showed nothing, but a title of voter fraud.  I guess that's why you picked them.

by nklein 2008-05-03 09:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

So if they violate TDP rules and commit fraud, but slap a high-five after, that makes it ok?

by mrstas 2008-05-04 05:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

Where's the fraud?  You still haven't shown it to me.  The videos you showed were people counting votes.  Fraud is not evident there.  In fact, that looks like a rather orderly caucus.

by nklein 2008-05-04 03:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

The first video is troublesome. The African American lady in glasses was out of line berating the white lady who was merely making a point. Then again, I dont know if the white lady was nagging her for a while or not. But from what I saw, the bespectabled lady should be disciplined.

The other video clips are a joke. I do not see a big controversy about them.

BUt here is a question about the troublesome first video. How tough would it have been for a single Hillary supporter to have monitored the ids at the beginning? Why were they bringing this up at the end? Was every local Democrat in charge of the proceedings an Obama supporter? Not one senior official in that locality was in favor of Hillary for this to go unchecked?

by Pravin 2008-05-04 07:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

That's not evidence of fraud.  The diarist and many commentsrs are maintaining that there was a conspiracy to conduct massive fraud and steal a caucus.  To do that you need documentation of some kind.  Objective reports would be nice.  

What I saw in that video was an argument over the rules.  There was a massive fuck-up in Texas caucus system.  There weren't enough party officials to organize it.  In many counties I understand there are like one or two party officials.  Your talking about hundreds of thousands of people who went to this caucus.  They weren't prepared.  So can I believe that people were signing in without being asked for certification? Yeah.  Can I believe that there was confusion and arguments over how rules of the caucus were meant to deal with this situation of huge numbers and poor supervision?  Yeah.  Can I believe this arguments were heated? Yeah.  We are talking about a PRESIDENTIAL election and emotions are raw.  Can I believe that there was nobody there to say that "this is the way it's done? Yeah.  Is that evidence of massive fraud? No.  An argument over rules does not prove fraud.

I don't understand how unsubstantiated rumors can become fact so quickly.

by nklein 2008-05-03 07:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

In that video, the black lady rightfully says that it's the fault of whoever was taking signatures if they did not ask for proof of identification and their voter registration card before allowing people to sign in.

After typing that, was it even necessary to have ID to get into the caucas.  Here in NYC I don't need I.D.  I simply need to go to my voter place and I sign in and they compare that with the signature that they have on file.

by shalca 2008-05-03 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Well, I live in Texas and participated

Yes, to get into the caucus you needed to show your voter registration card that was stamped, or a form of I.D., along with a voting slip if you voted that day.

If not, you had to fill out a provisional sign-in sheet.

by TxDem08 2008-05-03 04:34PM | 0 recs
actually no

just for clarification, a little slip which proved you voted was not neccessary for attendees.  you only have to show ID OR voter registration card.  there is a verification process, but no slip is required.

however, having that slip sure made sign ins a lot quicker.

by annatopia 2008-05-04 02:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Uprated.  TR abuse.

by fogiv 2008-05-02 11:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I wonder how he got all the unruly gangsters out to Guam?

by catilinus 2008-05-03 08:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Wow, that is really disturbing.

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-02 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

You're not kidding TD.  This is serious stuff and if I were a super - hell even a pledged delegate this would SERIOUSLY make me think twice before I cast my vote for BO at the convention!

by alegre 2008-05-02 06:14PM | 0 recs
Well said, Alegre...

This is REALLY disturbing. Democrats shouldn't be supporting this kind of vote suppression & election fraud. It's just wrong.

by atdleft 2008-05-02 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Well said, Alegre...

you mean like Hillary did in Nevada?  And I've got far more proof of that than this person does.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 11:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Well said, Alegre...

actually, it's true.  Just look what happened to the Party under Clinton stewardship.

She's just trying to derail Obama so she can try to take on McCain in 2012.  There's no other point in her staying in the race.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 04:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Well said, Alegre...

That's a lie and a canard.

by Montague 2008-05-03 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

my sentiments exactly.

by canadian gal 2008-05-02 07:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

all this started in iowa, with the bogus "rumor" that richardson had dropped out and endorsed obama. they stole votes in iowa caucuses with that rumor, and have probably been refining their technique ever since. the texas format is ripe for stealing code sheets and calling in bogus results. no wonder it took weeks to count.

by campskunk 2008-05-02 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

OMG! I'd forgotten about those Richardson "rumors" Camp.  Talk about dirty politics!

by alegre 2008-05-02 06:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

The Richardson/Dodd rumors were thoroughly debunked for Iowa caucus goers before the caucus started; they did not have any effect on the caucuses, and certainly not 7 points worth.

by coronado 2008-05-03 09:38AM | 0 recs
what is a code sheet?

we have no code sheets in the texas caucus.

by annatopia 2008-05-04 02:14PM | 0 recs
Re: what is a code sheet?

Each convention package contained a pink PIN code sheet with which to report the delegate count.

by Pacific John 2008-05-04 02:50PM | 0 recs
ah ok

i know what you are talking about, but i don't think the correct terminology is code sheet.

apples to apples and all that.

by annatopia 2008-05-05 01:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud
The stories of frauds emerged from the caucus in Washington as well.  I can't believe that things like these happened in the USA.  
It's disturbing and undermines the result of the election.
by JoeySky18 2008-05-02 06:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

That's what they are, stories.

You're grasping at straws in Washington. This is all just sour grapes because Hillary got clobbered so badly in the Washington Caucus.

There have been zero reports about caucus fraud in the local press here in Washington.

I was there, so I know how huge the crowds were. The crowds were huge because Obama had so many supporters turn out. It was awe inspiring, and you have no right to try to denigrate Obama's support here in Washington.

by Lefty Coaster 2008-05-02 07:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

What good is an investigation and finding of fraud if no one knows about it. Don't hesitate to tell the world about it, John.  People need to know and I hope it goes farther than just mydd.

by Scotch 2008-05-02 06:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

We can help in that regard Scotch.  If we talk about this at other blogs or discussion boards then maybe folks will start to pay attention - ya know? :)

by alegre 2008-05-02 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Be advised that the Clinton campaign is very aware of what happened in the Texas caucus.  Time and patience will prove us right all the way to Denver. I am sure they are just waiting for all the critical primaries to completed first.  The TX caucus like MI and FL will be contested in due time!

by mcctx 2008-05-02 08:49PM | 0 recs
Heard this happening in Washington

It is so upsetting that this is our party.

by catfish1 2008-05-02 06:18PM | 0 recs
WA state?

In my caucus, everything went OK. It was BUSY and chaotic but it still went OK.

by kevin22262 2008-05-02 06:20PM | 0 recs
Heard so, yes

Well good things were OK at your caucus. Still the disparity between the popular vote and the caucus result in WA is troubling.

by catfish1 2008-05-02 06:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Heard so, yes

of course they were, given how the primary didn't count.

by lizardbox 2008-05-02 06:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Heard so, yes

After all, it's not like a primary with double the turnout is more representative than the caucus or anything

by zcflint05 2008-05-02 07:10PM | 0 recs
Hmmm. I don't see how that applies.

Both the caucus and the primary counted in Texas and in counties which were either small enough to be transparent or in large counties where Hillary had legal teams and people trained to spot the illegalities, the popular vote and the caucus vote tracked almost precisely.  But in the large counties, the caucus vote numbers make absolutely no sense.

The Texas case makes it clear that the caucuses were stolen by Obama operatives.

by macmcd 2008-05-02 07:27PM | 0 recs
but
there were far more people that voted in the primary then caucused. Most people can not and will not go to a caucus, this is a fact.
If everyone who voted in the primary (many had also voted in the caucuses) had caucused, it would have been INSANE and IMPOSSIBLE! Now combine the people who ONLY caucused and the people who ONLY voted in the primary and you would have MAYHEM!
by kevin22262 2008-05-02 08:27PM | 0 recs
Re: but

That's why caucuses are so much less democratic than voting. It's always puzzled me that Obama prefers caucuses, since fewer people participate in them.

by zenful6219 2008-05-02 08:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Heard so, yes

clueless comment. A lot more people take the time to go vote in the primary and the primary didnt count? You really have to be a bot to believe in such blatant nonsense. Goodness, even the bush crowd in 2000 didnt talk such blatant bull.

by pdxarch 2008-05-02 11:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Heard so, yes

The WA primary results did not count for the Democrats in the sense that the delegates were awarded based on the caucus that took place a couple of weeks earlier. Thusly, the primary not having the impact of a primary whose result will drive the allocation of delegates, the turn out wasn't as great as it could've been. Now this is fact, and your comment is crap.

by lizardbox 2008-05-03 12:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Heard so, yes

You obviously trouble with basic logic. If 2x more people turn out for the primary than the caucus despite the delegate issue, what that shows is this: Many people didnt care what the quirkiness of delegate counting is. If people were to be voting based on the screwed up delegate calculus that dems have devised, people would have to give up on the dems and stop voting. They went to the polls anyway to show what their preference is. In this case Obama ended up winning both, thus making your argument sillier than before. It is the humongous disparity between the results which exposes the problems with the caucuses and hence my original comment.

by pdxarch 2008-05-03 10:52AM | 0 recs
That is

simply because caucuses SUCK! They are NOT democratic and they are not truly representative.

This IS a FACT.

by kevin22262 2008-05-02 08:23PM | 0 recs
What is so troubling?

It is clear Obama has a larger activist/volunteer base, which obviously is an advantage in a caucus, which requires a larger commitment of time and effort.

by protothad 2008-05-02 08:59PM | 0 recs
Re: What is so troubling?

No, what is clear is that Obama had a healthier, more able to take time off and more aggressive base.

Those that had to work, had to take care of families, were disabled, the elderly, and those that just didn't want to deal with a bunch of intimidation were not as likely to be there.

Why is it that people think that those that don't like to be bullied aren't as dedicated?

by splashy 2008-05-03 01:20AM | 0 recs
Re: What is so troubling?

This one of the most ignorant comments I've ever seen.  Have you even been to a caucus?

Let me tell you about my precinct delegation to the SD convention in Texas:

8 Clinton delegates
9 Obama delegates

1 of my Obama delegates could not show up because her children had strep throat.  However, the delegation even itself out because one of the Clinton supporters simply did not show up.  No excuse, just didn't come and wouldn't answer the phone when we called her.

The oldest person in our delegation was a 66 year old grandmother who walked with a cane.

What is it with you people who think those of us who are dedicated can be bullied?

by The Distillery 2008-05-03 02:36AM | 0 recs
Re: What is so troubling?

Oh forgot to mention.

The 66 year old grandmother was an Obama delegate.

by The Distillery 2008-05-03 02:37AM | 0 recs
Re: What is so troubling?

The Obama event I've attended was the most diverse group of people I've ever seen at a political function, and most of the people were low to mid income working families.

And yes, I think someone with low mobility or working two jobs or kids to look after who STILL finds time to volunteer and caucus are by definition more dedicated to their cause.  THAT is what I've seen in the trenches of the Obama campaign.  I assume it is what I would also find in the trenches of the Clinton campaign (if not quite as many).  Perhaps we should resist the urge to dismiss the dedicated activists on either side.  They are a credit to the Democratic party and we will need all of them in Novemeber no matter who the nominee is.

Peace

by protothad 2008-05-03 08:18AM | 0 recs
Re: WA state?
This triggers a thought: We saw irregularities in about 40 of 170 precincts. As people like Greg Palast have pointed out for years, it only takes a little effort to shave enough votes to win an election.

I should also point out that most Obama supporters are good, honest Democrats. But we saw patterns statewide so we know some irregularities were directed by the campaign.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 06:35PM | 0 recs
bullshit

"we know some irregularities were directed by the campaign"

prove this.  

john, i have long held you in high regard in the blogging world, but that statement is pure horse shit.  

prove it.  show me documentation stating that team obama was trained to engage in fraud.  show me emails, memos, anything that would prove this.

as someone who trained WITH team obama staffers here in tarrant county, as someone who spent damn near every waking moment with the entire paid team for nearly a month, i will swear an affidavit saying that we were in no way directed to do anything illegal. in fact we were trained to follow the letter of the law every step of the way.

i caucused in one of the most populated counties in texas.  obama kicked ass in the popular vote in tarrant and his caucus results were nearly identical.  he creamed hillary in two of our three senate districts.  and you know what?  the one where hillary won the popular vote, she also won that senate district's caucus.

so many accusations of fraud flying on this thread by people who obviously don't know shit about our process... unreal.  and no john, no directing that at you - just saying it generally.

now please, if you have some evidence to back up your claim that team obama was directed by high level staffers to steal the caucuses, then put up or shut up.

by annatopia 2008-05-04 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Heard this happening in Washington

It's even more upsetting that we turn all of this on ourselves...

Seriously, unless there is concrete evidence and I do mean solid evidence, we do not not need to be shouting at the hills about this.

The Republicans have stolen the past two Presidential elections... do you really think they will not try for the trifecta?  We are in some serious deep crap this year as they are up against a wall.... Unless we have solid, concrete evidence about malfeasance, we need to stop with the innuendo... We will see real voter intimidation, disenfranchisement, and stolen votes in November.

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-02 11:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Thanks John. Being in El Paso with you, I can't help but share my contempt for the Obama campaign's tactics at polling locations and in caucuses, especally in our district. You word it so much better than I ever could. You're truly a benefit to Hillary's cause, thank you for all the great info.

by zcflint05 2008-05-02 06:19PM | 0 recs
Thanks, Zach
I should mention that there are contemporaneous posts on this. Many of us at the El Paso Hillary HQ were aware of at least some of this.


Two examples that allude to this are here and here.

As Bill mentioned, we expected people to go to jail.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 06:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Thanks, Zach
I made a link error in the previous post. The link regarding irregularities is here.

Here's the relevant passage:

The woman on the left next to the Lt. Governor of Mexico is a lawyer from Boston. She flew in just to take care of any legal issues that might arise. And they did.. she stayed up all night after the primaries fielding calls from polls all over the city siting refractions by Obama people! Hundreds of complaints about Obama people breaking the laws at the polls, and NO complaints about Hillary people!

Kate and I along with a couple of others worked on these issues from the moment we got the first report of illegalities from Pharr, Texas, mid-day, until the county convention.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 08:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Thanks, Zach

You realize that these are blogs and not official sources.  Where is the state AG?  Where is the TDP?  Where's the press? Are all these groups in Obama's pocket? Or is your story just not verifiable?  And if so, why not?

by nklein 2008-05-02 10:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Thanks, Zach

Please read the update - I posted an answer to an earlier post of yours that covers you questions.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 10:06PM | 0 recs
A few problems with your update

"I should add, our organization was so overwhelming, the Obama campaign abandoned their precinct captain program about a week before the election, placing their bets on an election-day blitz by out of state organizers. We were also transparent, and included people with ties to the Obama campaign in our caucus training program."

I'm an Obama precinct captain in Tarrant county.  I'm not sure what overwhelming organization you're talking about.  The Clinton delegates in my delegation didn't even have anyone contact them from the Clinton campaign about where to caucus for the SD convention.  I had to give them the information.

In Tarrant County, the Obama campaign also hosted a mock convention (which didn't really work like a mock convention but more as a tutorial in how conventions work) which Clinton delegates were advised they could attend as well.  In fact, I sat next to a Hillary delegate who told me that she was confused that the Clinton campaign had not provided any information to them.  I told her that she could just pretend Clinton's name was anywhere Obama's was on the program materials.

And on your point that the Clinton campaign was trying to follow the rules and let the caucuses play out, was that before or after she sent a letter to the TDP requesting that they postpone SD and County conventions? http://www.thetexasblue.com/clinton-chal lenges-caucus-results-requests-conventio n-delay

by The Distillery 2008-05-02 10:45PM | 0 recs
Re: A few problems with your update
I have no idea what the story was in Tarrant. I am only talking about the El Paso field operation. As I mentioned in my letter to Lois Capps, excerpted here, there were only four major counties orderly enough to report most of their caucus results election night. And in three of those counties, the popular vote magically mirrored the caucus results.

The letter you linked was central to the Hillary campaign strategy, to forcefully bargain for the most thorough audit of sign-in sheets possible. In a face-saving maneuver, the party publicly refused, but then went about a best-effort audit. It was, and still is the strategy of the campaign to cooperate with the TDP and county chairs.

BTW, I disagree with this strategy. I do not think the caucus system is legitimate. We proved in El Paso, Travis and Bexar that proper caucuses should mirror the popular vote, and that all others are illegitimate. If we made that point, we would forfeit a number of delegates that we are in the process of trying to grind out, but illustrate the big picture that Obama's caucus support, and caucus delegate count is inflated by at least 10%.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 11:21PM | 0 recs
Re: A few problems with your update

The party publicly refused because challenges are how you refute caucus results, and your campaign more than utilized that strategy.  In my SD, we had 55 challenges out of 187 precincts.  The majority of those challenges were instigated by Clinton supporters against Obama delegates.

I'm not really sure what you think you've proven.  The only link you provide is blog entry quoting Hillary's counsel.  Can I have some independent links that state that the only caucuses that reported on that night were the ones you cite?  They're he crux of your argument.

by The Distillery 2008-05-02 11:43PM | 0 recs
and in my populous county (also tarrant)

we didn't report full results until the next day, and "magically" obama's caucus win matched very closely to the popular vote track.

so forgive me if the "magic" thing just doesn't hold weight with me.

by annatopia 2008-05-04 02:23PM | 0 recs
Very disturbing

The pattern of intimidation is stunning....from the field right through the surrogates to the candidate himself.  I hope the supers will pay attention to this....or will they dismiss it as "just his followers"?...Or, will the democratic party use this to reform this system?

Thank you.

by 4justice 2008-05-02 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Very disturbing

where's the beef?  Where are the specifics?  Where are the people willing to go on record about what happened?

I'm all for exposing caucus fraud if it took place.  But in exposing the vicious Clinton fraud that took place in the Nevada caucuses, I had specific names, places, activities, and interviews of people going on the record about it.  I even have the eyewitness account of the editor of The Nation.

Where's the beef?

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 11:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Very disturbing

Don't hold your breath.  :)

by fogiv 2008-05-03 11:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Very disturbing

don't worry, I'm not.  The same idiots demanding to see my "proof" in Nevada are just accepting this drivel at face value.

Marriages of convenience and all that...

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 04:40PM | 0 recs
I'm hesitant

to recommend because your diary will be deemed as hearsay.

However I don't doubt that what you have written is true. New politics?...right.

by Coldblue 2008-05-02 06:21PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm hesitant

You hesitating doesn't make it false...

by SHIBAM8P 2008-05-03 01:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Thank you for reporting your own, first-hand account.  Recommended.  It doesn't make sense that the caucus numbers would be so different from the primary results, unless there was foul play or at least substantial disorganization afoot.  The Obama national campaign may not have had anything directly to do with it - who knows - but this matter should be scrutinized.

by bobbank 2008-05-02 06:22PM | 0 recs
Too many Fraud reports

I think there are too many fraud reports in too caucus states for coincidence.

by del 2008-05-02 07:22PM | 0 recs
PJ You'll definately need one of these

by NewHampster 2008-05-02 06:23PM | 0 recs
Wow......

That's as undemocratic as it gets.

by owl06 2008-05-02 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Has anyone heard about the "800 volunteers by bus" issue?

About a month ago, I got an email from a friend who was helping an investigation of the caucuses in other states.  It had something to do with the number 800 and 20 buses of 40 people, and then margins of 800 voters in some precincts.  The implication was that these out-of-state surrogates were not doing GOTV efforts, but rather that they were caucusing (!) themselves.  I haven't heard anything since that correspodence.  I didn't follow up and my recollection is a bit fuzzy.  

by BPK80 2008-05-02 06:34PM | 0 recs
I have...

I have friends who helped out with Hillary's campaign in Iowa. When one of them first told me about seeing busloads of Chicago people coming to caucus for Obama in Iowa, I didn't believe it. It just sounded too outlandish...

But ever since, I've had more and more friends who worked in Iowa tell me the exact same story of the buses full of people who caucused for Obama. I dunno, maybe there's one big misunderstanding going on... But at the very least, this needs to be investigated.

by atdleft 2008-05-02 06:51PM | 0 recs
Re: I have...

The Des Moines Register reported that the number of caucusgoers who turned out to have unverifiable addresses was actually lower than it is in most years.

There are always anecdotal reports of fraud, but I don't see how it would be possible for hundreds of new people to show up out of nowhere and not get caught at it.  Keep in mind that it is not a secret ballot, and people basically caucus with their neighbors.

by Steve M 2008-05-02 07:50PM | 0 recs
I remember reading about the magic 800.

But I don't know what happened...we should track that down.

Seriously - caucuses should be done away with.  We should have a primary day with the popular vote determining who the winner is - and make it a Saturday or Sunday or week-end voting period so as many people as possible can vote.

This IS a democracy....isn't it?

by CoyoteCreek 2008-05-02 06:53PM | 0 recs
Re: I remember reading about the magic 800.

Agreed!  

There's a tort theory called res ipsa loquitur which states that sometimes a result (usually a product) is so bizarre on its face that it creates a presumption of negligence.  

These chasmic differences in primaries v. caucuses are suspicious to begin with.

by BPK80 2008-05-02 10:27PM | 0 recs
Re: I remember reading about the magic 800.

Better yet, do it over a week, like they do in Arkansas. We had almost a week, all day long every day except Sunday and Saturday, to vote in the primary. That way people can pick a good day and time for them. We love it. No lines if you vote early, and no intimidation.

by splashy 2008-05-03 01:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I always found the Iowa Caucus numbers highly suspect too as an Edwards supporter. I mean, Edwards led about half the way, and then the numbers sort of flipped.

I may make people mad, but I say that caucuses are garbage and should be completely scrapped. Only secret ballots should be used to determine elections.

by RDemocrat 2008-05-02 06:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I've been told stories that I haven't confirmed about Iowa, but from what i can tell, a fair investigation would uncover irregularities like those I know about in El Paso.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Except that the Des Moines Register did investigate.  "From what you can tell" seems to equal "What I would like to believe."  The Iowa caucuses were extremely well run.

by coronado 2008-05-03 09:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Wow, I have a bridge to sell you.  Do you want to buy it.  It is in a really great part of town.

by Spanky 2008-05-02 06:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

aww, our first troll... and he's a cutie, too! so, anyway, the troll's premise is that pacific john is gullible for believing his lying eyes. discuss.

by campskunk 2008-05-02 06:42PM | 0 recs
The key here is "lying eyes"...as in

direct witness to this crap.

John writes a very convincing piece based on first hand knowledge.  

Of course he should be believed!  

I mean we all saw Obama bowl and, as a result, know that he's a shitty bowler, right?  We all saw his PA debate performance and, as a result, saw what a shitty debater he is, right?

Your eyes do NOT deceive.

by CoyoteCreek 2008-05-02 06:56PM | 0 recs
Re: The key here is "lying eyes"...as in

I have an uncle who is a Dem party official in Texas and was involved in investigating some of the fraud claims.  He says the consensus is that mostly it was just a mess because of very large turn-out and lots of new caucus goers that didn't understand the procedures.  They found no signs of a concerted effort to defraud.  Still, there were plenty of problems, and that is reason enough to go to primaries.

by protothad 2008-05-02 09:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I had forgotten i was at mydd. Then i saw poster after poster jump on the "its a conspiracy to get us!" meme (hmmm reminds me of some group or other....) and the immediate labeling of anyone who didnt accept the groupthink as ordained by god as trolls.

Well .. you cant let silly dissent, skepticism or demands for proof get in the way! That'd be like .. like.. what those Democrats do with their silly reality based community.

by cdreid 2008-05-02 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

You're criticizing MyDD for positively reviewing a well written personal account, the day after Daily Kos went absolutely ape-shit hog-wild over a patently fraudulent doctored video on YouTube?!  I'm sorry, but THAT is funny.

by dhonig 2008-05-03 04:19AM | 0 recs
Ohio Caucus Fraud

I heard HORRIBLE stories from friends in Iowa.  Obama supporters were thugs.

by The Smoldering Crone 2008-05-02 06:40PM | 0 recs
I am not a thug!

Who are you to slander a group of millions of people who you've never met?  You heard something from some friends and that makes every single person who has worked their heart out for someone they believe in "thugs."  Well I heard some things about Hillary supporters would I be anymore justified in calling you a "murderer."  Why do you insist on being so hateful?  And that goes for the people who recc'd that comment as well.

by nklein 2008-05-02 10:06PM | 0 recs
I doubt that you are
As I mentioned, most Obama supporters are good Democrats. But there is a lawless, fanatic, thuggish element to his campaign that is unprecedented in the party since I've been active.

Frankly, I would not have believed this was possible prior to election night in Texas. But our methodical investigations and witness statements confirmed our initial impressions, that there was a wide pattern or illegal behavior.

Anecdotally, I had a very high opinion of the Obama volunteer who was my counterpart at the precinct I covered. She is anything but a thug, and I will be proud to have her on my side when the time comes. I doubt she knew of guidance to illegally take convention packages like   we saw in some El Paso precincts and statewide, for example.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 10:15PM | 0 recs
Re: I doubt that you are

You still have not provided evidence of said "wide pattern or illegal behavior."  Or any "lawless, fanatic, thuggish element" in his campaign.  Is this meant as a derision on the candidate?  Why?  What evidence is there?  "Guidance," you say.  Where is it?  You something illegal wouldn't be leaked from the campaign.  Illegal shit is leaked from the government all the time.  If there is one good organizer, you don't think there aren't others.  Do you see where I'm going with this?  It just doesn't follow logically.

by nklein 2008-05-03 12:59AM | 0 recs
it doesn't need to

they just need the meme that the caucuses were fraudulent so they can disregard their delegates and popular vote contribution when making the case to super delegates.

Obama supporters are 'thugs and gangsters' is also a good meme.

by grass 2008-05-03 04:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

What bothers me is, that a lot of the Texas Super's...already know about it.  The TDP, decided to settle the outstanding discrepancies there, and are viewing it as a "no harm/no foul" type of situation.

From what I've been hearing, is the Clinton campaign has been told "not" to push this forward...not by the TDP, but by the DNC.  Again that last part is what I've heard from around the TDP, and I don't have rock solid fact.  But that the DNC and Super's have said they don't want this to be aired out, and be fodder for the GE.

That is partly why they (the TDP) denied Clinton's claim to delay announcing the results, because they (Clinton) wanted to challenge the caucus results and the discrepancies and they weren't gonna let it happen.

Rumor's are already circulating that there will be a floor fight at the State Convention, and these charges will be made of these allegations before the Credentials committee.

by TxDem08 2008-05-02 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

If both the DNC and the Clinton campaign want to handle it a certain way... it makes me wonder if we ought to be respecting that.

by Steve M 2008-05-02 07:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

So far the Clinton campaign has been working behind the scenes to have these issues addressed.  But believe me, there is a nasty floor fight at the State Convention brewing if these charges are not dealt with before then.

The Credentials Committee meets on the Friday of the Convention...that's gonna be a 'shin-ding' of a meeting.

by TxDem08 2008-05-03 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Holy shit!  I am stunned into speechlessness.  I had suspected such from the caucuses but WOW!

by avrdream 2008-05-02 06:51PM | 0 recs
Did you file a police report?

If you witnessed a crime like that and are withholding information from the authorities, you could find yourself in hot water. Perhaps you should contact the Texas attorney general and file a report.

...or, perhaps, you could be spreading BS.

by Lost Thought 2008-05-02 06:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Did you file a police report?

Nevermind, I found the line where you mentioned it. Good for you, if it comes to anything. If not, well, they rarely do.

by Lost Thought 2008-05-02 06:53PM | 0 recs
Not BS

They've been collecting evidence and affidavits to back up what's happened.

by alegre 2008-05-02 07:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Not BS

And I apologize, I missed that line in the article. It is a critical line though, and somewhat changes the entire tone of the article.

by Lost Thought 2008-05-02 07:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud
Great diary!  I have been hearing so much about this, but nothing in the MSM.
It wouldnt surprise me that the DNC doesnt want the campaign to come out with this. But it doesnt mean that the PEOPLE cant come out with it. The DNC is willing to disenfranchise the voters of Michigan and Florida. So this doesnt surprise me.
I am sure this is going o go to the convention.
Hillary is clearly the best candidate and the supers won't have cover to switch until the convention. That is my prediction.
by rrs11215 2008-05-02 06:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I'm not discounting the diary, but just for future reference, Alegre, you might want to change the style of your postings to give them more of an authentic feel.

The tone and cadence of the first nine responses to the initial diary make you guys sort of sound like co-hosts on the QVC channel trying hard to sell some cubic zirconium jewelry.

It might be the exclamation points that give it that "look at this beautiful ring for only three payments of $29.99" feel.

Of course, whatever you're selling might be a good product, who knows, but sometimes not sounding like a salesperson is the best way close the deal.

I'm sure you'll follow up with your own diary with plenty of photos, quotes, embedded videos, and of course a plea for campaign donations.

I'll look forward to it.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-02 07:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

sorry, all of our troll relations representatives are busy at this time. we will be with you as soon as possible. your comment is very important to us. to facilitate our response, you have been assigned troll case number three. please refer to this in all subsequent comments. thank you.

by campskunk 2008-05-02 07:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

C O L!

by alegre 2008-05-02 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

THAT was excellent!

by ProudMilitaryMom 2008-05-02 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Wow. You really are quite the servile one arent you. Everyone who doesnt worship your authority figure is a troll. Says a lot about ya. Says more that alegre supports ya. Nothing good.

by cdreid 2008-05-02 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

tee hee

by Tolstoy 2008-05-02 08:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I won't follow up with anything.  This is John's story to tell but I've been hearing rumors about what happened in Texas for weeks from one or two other folks.  And as you can see - the campaign put out press releases and then didn't push it any further - at least not publically.

And yeah I'm psyched this stuff is finally seeing the light of day.  When you know a candidate's supporters are dirty (I'm NOT saying that about Obama - yet) and aren't hearing anything about it anywhere it's frustrating.

I'm glad this is finally getting out there.

by alegre 2008-05-02 07:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Bitterness turned into poor sarcasm is so unpleasant.  I wish you had spared us.

by Scotch 2008-05-02 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

And canned enthusiasm, feigned shock, hoaky boosterism and faux outrage really do not add much to political discussion on a blog.

And some of the usual suspects, the most consistent purveyors of those tools, are posting on this thread.

Excuse me if my sarcasm made your reading unpleasant, but I wish the usual suspects would spare us in so many other places on MyDD.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-02 07:49PM | 0 recs
No, however factual information

should give you pause.  I believe John because I saw it myself in my own County in Texas.  Odd, isn't it that so many people saw similar stunts.  Luckily, John has recorded accounts from the time of the caucus so you might should entertain the idea that they are absolutely factual.

by macmcd 2008-05-02 07:53PM | 0 recs
Re: No, however factual information

It does.

I wasn't being sarcastic when I said I wouldn't be surprised if some of the details were true.

But didn't 2000 teach us that the best way to clean up an election mess is to make sure the process is secure before the first ballot is cast?

You can't fix these problems now in the heat of a contested campaign.  The horses are already out of barn.

And by the way, how was the State of Texas or the Clinton campaign pressured not to investigate the claims further?

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-02 08:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Why on earth do you subject youself to such horror. Just leave it behind you and go.

by Scotch 2008-05-02 07:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Because I like this site enough that I don't want it to become an echo chamber.

We don't need any more balkanization.

Some of the pro-Clinton folks who are refugees from Daily Kos would have served the blogosphere better by sticking around to fight for their candidate.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-02 08:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Spoken like someone who wasn't there and doesn't have a clue what happened.

by Tolstoy 2008-05-02 08:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

nothing there to fight for. The place is infested with fanatical idiots, who have their hands on their ears and go "la la la la la" I cant hear you. It doesnt matter how many times you quote facts/figures and actual news reports. The same lies will be repeated throughout the day every hour with a new hillary hit diary that would be repeating the exact same thing you debunked and silenced some of them with. As Brian Greene said in a Nova episode ("however hard you try, you cant teach physics to a dog"), you just cant argue with people who behave like chimps.

by pdxarch 2008-05-03 12:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

And other than the sheer volume of the posts at Kos, how is that any different than a lot of the activity here?

I've been a silent reader of both sites for quite a while.  I frankly don't see a huge difference.

I think it's a function of size more than anything else.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-03 04:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Amazing diary! I think the El Paso issue is most striking because that whole region and city voted so heavily in favor of Clinton in the popular vote. Also, other districts that voted 60-70% for Clinton, but she didn't win the local caucus. The caucus results were only sporadically reported. The odd thing is it is hard to find any numbers on the local district results - just an overall percentage. I think the DNC needs to get it's act together and investigate this - Florida and Michigan is also a total travesty that keeps getting pushed off (the two states have more than 10% of the US population yet don't count - over some cocky attitude that the DNC should 'punish' voters).

by sunnyaz08 2008-05-02 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud
I participated in the Texas Caucus as a Clinton supporter. Hillary won the popular vote in my precinct by 12 percentage points. However, in the caucus, she lost horribly. The Obama presence at the caucuse was overwhelming and (after the fact) not at all representative of the popular vote.

Out of the 116 people who showed up, roughly 20 percent were Clinton supporters. Obama supporters took every opportunity to take charge of the convention. The moment our precinct captain arrived, he was literally surrounded and shadowed by five Obama supporters, who seemed more like bodyguards. When election officials finally released our packet, the precinct captain lost control, no temporary officers were elected, and the Obama team divided our precinct into 4 subgroups. No one verified voter eligibility, and the "helpers" were actively advising people not to include voter registration numbers or even mailing addresses or phone numbers on the sign in sheets. No one was supervising the sheets, which were a critical component of the convention.

I contacted the Clinton campaign about the irregularities and gave an affidavit to a Clinton campaign attorney, but I haven't heard anything since. The Texas caucus was one of the worst nights of my life because it was so utterly corrupt and Obama's campaign was taking full advantage of that fact.

by zenful6219 2008-05-02 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Mobilizing more of your supporters to come to the caucus isn't corrupt, it's called running a campaign.

by KTinTX 2008-05-02 07:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

What was your precinct number and county, please?

by The Distillery 2008-05-02 08:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I'm unclear in what sense you "witnessed" the misconduct that was reported to you by Mrs. A.  Maybe I was reading in haste.

by Steve M 2008-05-02 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Its called desperation.

Members of a cult, when faced with the destruction of their carefully honed but reality impaired worldview  will go to any lengths to preserve it. Witness the Davidians et al. Thus a "conspiracy" was apparently hatched in 1993 or so to undermine Hillary and bring the evil Dark one to power who will i presume eat our babies and force us all to have sex with our male cousins or something. Sorry thats as far as i could follow the wingnuttery before the coffee coming out of my nose actually got painful. As a rule whenever Alegre is involved in anything i presume there is a need for widespread lithium amongst the sheep.

by cdreid 2008-05-02 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Your comment is less than worthless.

by Steve M 2008-05-02 07:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Brilliant reparte

by cdreid 2008-05-02 07:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

What satisfaction do you get from coming on a diary spreading hatefulness, and not discussing the issues?  Your words are something a 12 year old might post with the hope of hurting someone, anyone.  What ever comes to mind first just so it relieves you for a second of all that bottled up vemon.

by Scotch 2008-05-02 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Hear, Hear.  But it is classic Obama follower tactics.  Don't talk to the issue, attack, distract and divert.

by anya109 2008-05-02 10:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

And my hear hear is just a pun (I know, not good but puns rarely are) on here, here.

by anya109 2008-05-02 10:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Nothing more entertaing the bot chutzpah! cult, you want to talk cult? Boy the guy stands up and says "Im gonna change the world" and the people in the audience faint and toss their children around and some have a pint sized obamaphile and become devotees and others believe that going to the campaign event is like going to church and yet others think they can now finally die after hearing him speak. And others wonder if he is incarnation of god that we may not recognize and yet others think he is sent by the messiah! Now thats how a cult sounds. Dont believe me? just go look at the actual press reports of various obama events and the people who make these remarks.

http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com/

by pdxarch 2008-05-03 12:23AM | 0 recs
If it is the Mrs. A. event I am familiar with

John witnessed it by talking on the telephone during the event with Mrs. A.  In addition, there was an "honest" Obama person with whom John was also working who also tried to intercede in the situation.  

by macmcd 2008-05-02 07:59PM | 0 recs
Re: If it is the Mrs. A. event I am familiar with

Listening to what someone says on the phone is not witnessing something.  In no court in the western world would use that as evidence.  That is hearsay.  What did PacificJohn witness or did he/she witness anything?  Is this anything other than hearsay?  Can we please have evidence?  The only evidence I've heard is the reception of phone calls by the Clinton campaign citing issues at caucuses.  That is hardly an objective source.  Shouldn't there be some press release by the TX AG or the TDP?  Where's the evidence?

by nklein 2008-05-02 08:58PM | 0 recs
There are all kinds of press releases

but one has to be willing to read them and Obama people are afraid to look.

by macmcd 2008-05-03 07:41AM | 0 recs
Re: There are all kinds of press releases

Give me one.  Anyone you want.  Are they all from Hillary?  B/c if they are I'm not going to believe.  But if you could give me an independent source I'd love it.

by nklein 2008-05-03 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud
I am SOOO glad you are reporting this- I saw quite a few videos made on sight at the caucuses and the behavior was absolutely reprehensible. Glad to knwo you are on the case.
I hope these thugs go to jail for a long long time.
by ProudMilitaryMom 2008-05-02 07:22PM | 0 recs
Where can we see the vids?

by miker2008 2008-05-02 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Where can we see the vids?

Sorry I did not see this last night- I posted a link but here it is again

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PV6lAJ709Oc

This young lady has quite a few vids up of the live action at the Texas caucus in her precint. Not pretty stuff.
Also caught some news yesterday about a group in NC handing out ballots already filled in for Obama and not clearly labeled "sample" sorry- no time to hunt it down again- gotta go get the daughter from college today- There goes $30 in gas right there!

by ProudMilitaryMom 2008-05-03 06:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

My first question would be why does the Clinton campaign want to keep this out of the press? I find this little factual nugget suspect at best.

Secondly, where were you on caucus night? I read through the diary a couple of times, and I really cannot pin-point your actual involvement in the process and thus would like better explanation on what type of witness you happened to be in the great scheme of things: first-hand, second-hand, third... ?

So, I do understand that you did some investigating for three weeks. On whose behalf and in what capacity? And who did you report the results to?

Last but not least, can you please try to articulate why exactly you waited until now to make this information public?

Sorry to be skeptical, but many things just don't add up. I think by nature caucuses are a bit more aggressive process-wise, and I've heard complaints about the supporters from both campaigns. Remember how the Clinton camp asked people to show up at 6:30 instead of 7:00 and take over the sign-up sheets?

by lizardbox 2008-05-02 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Maybe because the Clinton campaign doesn't want to embarass the TX Democratic Party in a year where we might have a shot at winning some elections in TX?

by mrstas 2008-05-03 06:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I truly would love to believe that. But, are we talking about the same Clinton campaign that single handedly insulted more states and more voters in a 2-month period than any campaign in the history of U.S. politics?

by lizardbox 2008-05-03 07:58AM | 0 recs
Rule Breakin in El Paso on the Clinton Side

Are you equally concerned about the blatant ignoring of the rules by the Clinton majority in El Paso in how you allocate at-large delegates to the state convention?

http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_90452 56

El Paso delegate fight could be resolved soon

By Ramon Bracamontes / El Paso Times
Article Launched: 04/25/2008 12:00:00 AM MDT

The challenge questioning whether the El Paso County Democratic Party properly seated its delegates for the state party convention may be settled this weekend, and if it is not, the challenge will linger until the state convention in June, officials said.

El Paso lawyer and longtime Democrat Don Williams is challenging the way the county Democrats selected the at-large delegates who will represent El Paso in Austin at the state Democratic convention.

In his challenge, which was sent to the state party earlier this month, Williams claims that of the 48 at-large state delegates selected by a committee, 37 should have been delegates who support Illinois Sen. Barack Obama for president.

Instead, the committee appointed only 11 Obama-supporting delegates and 37 Hillary Rodham Clinton delegates.

"The issue is not what happened on the floor and which delegates were elected at the convention," Williams said. "It's the at-large delegates who were seated who are in question. They were supposed to reflect what the convention looked like."

According to a report issued at the El Paso County Democratic Party convention, of those in attendance, 75 percent signed up as Clinton delegates, and 25 percent signed up as Obama delegates. During the precinct elections, 120 Clinton delegates, or 90 percent, were elected and only seven Obama delegates were elected.

Williams contends that because of the precinct conventions, the at-large delegates seated by the committee should
Advertisement

have been selected in a manner that reflected the convention's attendance -- 25 percent for Obama, 75 percent for Clinton.

The final delegate count ended 157 for Clinton, 18 for Obama.
It should have been 131 for Clinton and 54 for Obama, Williams said.


by KTinTX 2008-05-02 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Rule Breakin in El Paso on the Clinton Side

I would love to hear from Clinton supporters on this and the many other rumors of voter intimidation, lying and other Rovian tactics used against Obama voters..

by Bobby Obama 2008-05-02 07:31PM | 0 recs
In my County there was not an iota

of any sort of intimadation of any Obama supporter.  I think you all are blowing smoke because I know what I saw and it tracks exactly with the kind of tactics that John recorded in El Paso County.

by macmcd 2008-05-02 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: In my County there was not an iota

You also said that your county caucus voted overwhelmingly for Clinton and correlated closely to the 72% of the vote she got in the primary.  I'd say that's pretty ineffective intimidation.

by shalca 2008-05-02 08:26PM | 0 recs
The irony:

is that only in areas where we stopped fraud did we have enough people on the ground to catch it.

The central lesson from this is the big picture that big well-run counties had similar popular and caucus votes. In El Paso and Bexar, we documented a lot of fraud. It WAS ultimately ineffective because it was thwarted or overturned.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 08:46PM | 0 recs
Re: The irony:

You're right. There was a lot of fraud in El Paso and Bexar. Both SD-29 and SD-26 have delegations to state that do not match the signins at the county convention. Clinton is overweighted in both because they did not follow the rules for allocating at large delegates, but thanks to the committees in place, these can be rectified at the state convention.

by KTinTX 2008-05-02 09:13PM | 0 recs
Re: The irony:

Pacific John,

As a fellow Texas voter, I am sympathetic to your plight.  I do believe your story has a lot of hearsay, but I have also heard a lot of hearsay from fellow Obama supporters about intimidation in my county, Tarrant.  I give them the benefit of the doubt, so I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, as well.

That said, there are problems with the argument you are making:

You are saying that the problems you witnessed or heard of are indicative of the entire Texas results.  I find this notion to be logically defunct.  Assuming the accusations are true, you are saying that one or two counties with irregularities prove that the entire process was inaccurate if it didn't match the ratio you set up, namely that popular and caucus votes needed to match.  Part of the problem in this was that election workers were not telling democratic voters to come back to the caucus.  Nor did they tell voters that they needed to have proof that they voted when they came back to caucus.

I also find it bizarre that you quote El Paso as an example of a place where fraud was avoided when another commenter on this thread posted an article that showed Obama was deprived of delegates that he should have gotten according to the caucus vote in that county.

In my county (SD 12, from precinct 3157) a Clinton supporter was Temporary Chair.  He allowed a Clinton supporter to bring a motion to the floor to seat all challenged delegates 50/50, which would have given Clinton a 5% increase in delegates in my SD.  The motion was defeated.  However, when an Obama supporter tried to bring a motion to seat challenged delegates as is, he would not recognize the supporter and claimed that the convention hadn't actually convened.  So apparently, there were attempts at fraud on both sides around the state.  I suppose it just depends on which county you were in.

by The Distillery 2008-05-02 09:24PM | 0 recs
Re: In my County there was not an iota

The article was in the El Paso Times, as you can see.  Do you just refuse to read it?

by The Distillery 2008-05-02 09:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Rule Breakin in El Paso on the Clinton Side

Why you must be a troll! Posting Facts? OH MY GOD! Thats not allowed at Mydd in an obamahate thread!! UR PART OF DE CONSPIRACY!! U OBAMAITE! I BET YOUR BALCK TOO!

Sorry just preemptively posting what the wingnuts are about to :P

by cdreid 2008-05-02 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Rule Breakin in El Paso on the Clinton Side

i wrote a diary on that, as a member of sen. district 129......

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/14/2152 25/830#readmore

by amde 2008-05-02 07:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Rule Breakin in El Paso on the Clinton Side

And as to the point, everything you mentioned is provided for in the rules, and yes, they were ignored.

The first being that if a particular candidate's delegation (this is from precinct to county) does not have enough alternates of their own kind to seat in place of missing alternates of same kind, then alternates of any presidential preference (in this case, only Obama in a 2-way race) ARE seated. That's just the rules.

The second point was concerning the allocation of at large delegates from the county to the state level to bring the entire delegation in-line with the sign in at the county convention. That sign in, as both side agree, was 75-25 in El Paso SD-29. The delegation to state is supposed to be of the same make-up. It was not (it was a 90-10 split). This is simply wrong and against the rules. In this case, Clinton (naturally) won a majority of the delegates in the precinct by precinct round, overweighting herself to a 90-10 ration of that set. The Clinton controlled committees then simply allocated the at-large delegates in the same 90-10 ration (which is contrary to the rules).

This is indeed before the state credentials committee and they will be very much in the right to revers the incorrect ratio meaning that around two dozen Clinton delegates will flip to Obama delegates because that's what the sign-ins allocated.

by KTinTX 2008-05-02 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I find the timing of this extremely odd and i would demand to see every shred of proof.  I doubt most of this ever happened, and even if some of it did, i doubt the campaign had any knowledge or participation.

by Bobby Obama 2008-05-02 07:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

let us hope the campaign didn't know...assuming it's as bad as it is described.

by FISG 2008-05-02 08:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I second this account!! I was there!

by amde 2008-05-02 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

As an Obama supporter, I hope this is investigated.  If Obama wins the nomination, I want it to be fairly and not by corruption.  It certainly sounds as though there is a lot of funny business that happened.  I don't know enough about the caucus process to know what is and is not allowed.  But if rules/laws were broken, I hope there are repercussions.

That being said, there are quite a few comments here that say things like "Way to go!  You are a service to Hillary!"  Those quotes should be trumpeting democracy, rather than Hillary, so as not to appear as biased as they do.  It's quotes like that that make Obama supporters distrust diaries like this that actually have legitimate points.  And I realize Obama supporters do it also, but this is a very serious topic and should be treated a bit more objectively by some commenters.

by ProgressiveDL 2008-05-02 07:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

If it's democracy you want, you're not getting it with caucuses, pure and simple.

by zenful6219 2008-05-02 07:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I actually totally agree with you.  I don't know much about the history of corruption at caucuses, so I don't if they are inherently undemocratic.  I do know that I support anything that makes it easier, and not harder, for all Americans to vote.  I support primaries and weekend elections, I would like to eventually see a rating system for president (where you list your choices in order of preference, or where you can rate all candidates from 1-5).  I am incredibly anxious about the Supreme Court's decision the other day to uphold the voter identification requirements.  

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/29/spak ovsky-supreme-court-voter-id-ruling-vind icates-the-bush-justice-department/

by ProgressiveDL 2008-05-02 08:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I don't doubt that this diary has legitimate points.  Knowing a little bit about Texas, it wouldn't surprise me at all that the caucuses were chaotic and that some monkey business occurred.

But judging by many of the comments, the purpose of the response is to make an effort to cast doubt on all of Obama's caucus victories.

I have participated in the caucus process in Minnesota, and it was orderly and democratic.  I heard no reports from family members that anything was different this year.

Despite what one of the posters here states, the superdelegates - who this is undoubtedly aimed at - know better.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-02 07:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I witnessed the same in Collin County.

by supero 2008-05-02 07:45PM | 0 recs
This has to get out. The mysterious

Obama caucus advantage has smelled bad from the start.  

A few weeks back, a post at 'talkleft' suggested that someone else had found evidence of fraud in the upper midwest caucuses, with the Obama campaign bussing in college students whose legal residences were not checked when they entered caucuses.

by miker2008 2008-05-02 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: This has to get out. The mysterious

Unless this is your firsthand account, please post a link with evidence.

by The Distillery 2008-05-02 09:29PM | 0 recs
Will do, when my e-mail comes back.

Links are there.

by miker2008 2008-05-03 07:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

There are some videos on you Tube by a young woman who was a participant in Texas. She had enough foresight to tape a lot of the questionable practices. For those who want to see first hand what happened in one district- go take a look.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PV6lAJ709Oc

She has quite a few documenting what went on down there.

by ProudMilitaryMom 2008-05-02 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I couldnt tell exactly what was going on other than a delegate who didnt sign in or something was allowed against the rules to be seated or something. Whatever it was, how come the guy with the big Hillary T shirt just stood silent and stone faced?

How is Hillary going to fight the REthuglicans if they don't even know caucus rules? Only one lady seemed to be objecting.

by Pravin 2008-05-04 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

OMG!

This is something I would have expected to hear of the Nixon campaign...Not one of our own!

I have chosen to support Hillary, but am willing to vote for Obama in the event of his nomination.  This makes me question everything he is about?  I mean, seriously, if true this is GOP crap!  This is not progressive, outsider, "hope" based, or liberal...This is criminal!  This is OLD School politics that (again if true) Senator Obama sure did learn quickly.

PLEASE send this to the media, and report to FEC!  This can't be allowed to happen.  Not because it favors Hillary, but because it protects our democracy.  

by FISG 2008-05-02 08:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Cross posted on my page.

PLEASE report this to the media, the FEC, and the DNC!  This is worthy of investigation and reporting!  If this is true, it means that...Oh I don't know....It's too terrible to consider!  I want the Dems to win, but not like this!  Say it isn't so.

by FISG 2008-05-02 08:24PM | 0 recs
After the Daily Kos tactics
I'm not in the least bit surprised.
Yes.  This must get out, pronto.
by internetstar 2008-05-02 08:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Old school Chicago politics for an old school Chicago fraudster. It's time that we stand up for fairness and truth and neither of those are Barack Obama.

by zcflint05 2008-05-02 08:12PM | 0 recs
Thank you for telling what went on in El Paso.

I know it is difficult for Obama supporters who have not been a part of the on-the-ground group who work on "gaming" the caucuses but it is time for them to begin to see the light.  

Thank you for being well-trained enough to know what to watch for and how to handle the fraud and thank you for your careful documentation.  I have been hoping this would all be revealed before the convention and I certainly hope it gets further investigation and is finally understood by all Democrats because I still believe that most Democrats do not want to support anyone who would campaign in that way.

Highly recommended.  I know your report is absolutely factual.  Thank you for reporting it.

by macmcd 2008-05-02 08:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Thank you for telling what went on in El Paso.

"I know your report is absolutely factual."

This is the worst kind of ignorance. I apologize for a comment that must seem very offensive, but this is why MyDD has fallen in stature in the eyes of many.

Think about it. He has cited no sources. He has provided no evidence. Yet you assume he is telling the truth, simply because if what he says is true, your candidate benefits.

And the worst part is that this comment has been rec'd by five people already.

by motbob 2008-05-02 09:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

so what are we going to do about it???

by alright 2008-05-02 08:21PM | 0 recs
Show me the money

So if anything that was written here were true, you can bet hillary would be all over it. So why isn't hillary screaming at the top of her lungs??????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????/

We're still waiting for your your proof diarist.

by venician 2008-05-02 08:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

I've heard countless of these rumors, but no details ever given.  I've been to caucuses, they can be unruly in the best of circumstances.  This time it appears that there were not enough sites for caucuses and there were not materials for people to sign-in on.  I've yet to hear any verified account of fraud.  Two months, but nothign.  Why after going for a month and half now on Wright do think the media would just shut out any attempt to challenge the legitimacy of the caucuses?  Where is the reporting?!  Why is it that you saw this, but no reporters, police officers, judges, lawyers or others who would be compelled to speak up about it and document it?

If there is evidence of this I want to hear it.  This would be criminal and I'm not.

Finally, Hillary won El Paso by 75%.  How with that overwhelming majority did you allow a minority to override the will of the majority?  Even in the example of Mrs. A (you told us you witnessed this personally, but the only evidence you give is a person not named and the precinct not given), there was a majority of Hillary supporters.  How did they let a minority overrule a majority?  That doesn't make sense.  Please explain it to me.

by nklein 2008-05-02 08:37PM | 0 recs
why does ANYONE still HAVE caucuses? ESPECIALLY Te

ESPECIALLY Texas!

They are a legacy of the horse drawn carriage era, -the pre-pre-Internet era.

We should be moving towards more direct democracy, not away from it. These caucuses are an anachronism in the staes where they don't have primaries (why?) but in Texas, they ALSO have a primary. So how can they have a caucus TOO? I don't get it. What's the point. The will of the people of Texas has spoken in the PRIMARY.

What is the history behind this insanity, and the rationale?

by architek 2008-05-03 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: why does ANYONE still HAVE

I think Caucuses are damn stupid too. The problem with the whining I see on MYDD(not directed at you personally since you could be genuinely against this before the primary) is that I see a correlation between the complaining and the fact that they are supporters of the candidate trailing. Why weren't there complaints about this concept before the primary got underway?

Superdelegates are undemocratic too especially when they are in numbers so huge. But again, I see mostly a correlation between the people who complain and the campaign that stands to lose out on this count.

by Pravin 2008-05-04 05:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

This is how elections are run in Chicago, and that's what Obama knows best. This is really an outrage, but at the same time, I really don't expect any better from Obama. He is trying to be the John Stroger of national politics.

by leozh 2008-05-02 08:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Why would anyone rec this comment?

by futbol dad 2008-05-04 08:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Thanks John.

by durendal 2008-05-02 08:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

BO's popularity and momentum and inevitable status is a caucus illusion. Those victories were coerced by an army of caucus soldiers. Add a deceitful and biased press corp, and false polls and an image of overwhelming popularity is created where mediocre interest, at best, exists.

His candidacy has been the most disgraceful deception I've ever witnessed -- it is on par with Bush's cabinet waving viles of uranium dust and selling America on the necessity of war. BO attacked and vilified the most successful Democratic President since FDR and made the GOP disparagement of Sen. Clinton look like respect.

I would never support a candidate who treats members of his own party so reprehensibly. Democrats  were the ones being bullied and intimidated in caucuses. Democrats. With colleagues like Barack Obama who needs enemies -- he has enough hate for everyone.

by seattlegonz 2008-05-02 08:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Guilty until proven innocent, and then only maybe?

by shalca 2008-05-02 09:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Let's see. In the comment, you

-called the press corps, as a whole, deceitful and biased
-implied that I am supporting an illusion
-called polling rigged
-said that Obama himself attacked Bill Clinton. Neither he nor his top campaign staff did so, unless in direct response to an attack.
-stated that Barack Obama is full of "hate," which, knowing him, is about the worst insult you could serve him.

You've been troll rated, sir. Have a nice day.

by motbob 2008-05-02 09:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Wow -- you really do have a bad case of Obama-love don't you?

Obama never said anything against Bill Clinton? Are you serious? He's been deriding his presidency for over a year now.

You think the press corp is fair and balanced? Please, that's the most insane thing I've ever heard. Most women can see it, although I understand many men are blind to it. I suggest you watch "Mad As Hell" by ShuttheFreudUp.

You don't think BO has hate in him? Have you actually listened to his angry speeches? He is bitter and biting and sounds like he is full of hate.

I didn't say you were supporting an illusion, I said his popularity is an illusion. By cutting out the voters of two populous states and inflating the value of caucus voters it gives BO the impression of popular support that isn't really there. Every one of his delegates represents something like 13,000 people while every one of Hillary's delegates represents 100,000 + voters. That's what I mean by his popularity is an illusion -- it's inflated unreasonably.

BO won't win in the ge...if you really cared about a progressive adenda ou'd support hillary.

by seattlegonz 2008-05-03 11:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

So those 15 million votes, they are imaginary?

by nklein 2008-05-03 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

No but they are imputed from caucus results. Hillary's 15 million are actual voters.

by seattlegonz 2008-05-05 01:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

That is a ridiculous statement.  Even with caucuses they are actual voters and Clintons 14.5 million include caucus voters.  They both using the same metric there (except Clinton wants to include FL and MI) and Obama's winning.

by nklein 2008-05-05 04:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Ha, that's funny.

by seattlegonz 2008-05-08 01:52PM | 0 recs
It would be funny if it were unture, but...

since it is true, I think it's down-right salient.

by nklein 2008-05-08 08:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

When I caucused, there was this lady Mrs. TWX who called me on the phone and said she was locked in the closet with Kucinich and Gravel supporters.  I immediately turned to the reporter on my left who was videotaping the whole thing but he had a glass of kool-aid in his hands.  

So I took mental notes and did some investigations of 1000 people and told the Hillary people.  But she's like toooooo cool to try and uncover fraud.  That's like soooooo beneath her.  She wants votes to be counted but not if they're her supporters.  She's gonna sit on that stuff.  

So I expect that if she doesn't win the popular vote in the end by some miracle that me and the lady in the basement will be so mad that we'll sit at home and let McSame win and the supreme court turn and more soldiers die in Iraq.

by Hope08 2008-05-02 09:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

with the way bots behave here and elsewhere in the blogosphere, whats not to believe in your entire account?

Whether fraud happened or not, it really doesnt matter. that caucuses did not reflect the voter preferences was nailed in both TX and WA. Both places clearly showed a substantial difference in the results between primaries and caucuses, with 2x-3x more people voting in primaries. With the same demographics, same local politics, same local endorsements, same campaign visits by the candidates, it nails the fact that caucuses were absolute junk when it comes to guaging what the voters wanted in that particular state.

by pdxarch 2008-05-03 12:33AM | 0 recs
Wow, I'm stunned

by this revelation.  We need to get this out to the MSM---I just hope they're not so in the tank with Obama that they don't understand the significance of this diary.  We need to spread the word---Thanks for speaking up!

by izarradar 2008-05-02 09:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

THAT JUST MAKES ME SICK TO MY STOMACH!  ISN'T IT ENOUGH THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE HAD TO ENDURE TWO STOLEN ELECTIONS BECAUSE OF FRAUD??  NOW, FRAUD WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY!!!  THOUSANDS OF US HAVE BLOGGED FOR MONTHS THAT SOMETHING WAS "JUST NOT RIGHT" WITH THIS CAUCUS THING.  WHY WOULD HILLARY LOSE EVERY CAUCUS BUT WIN IN PRIMARY VOTING SITUATIONS?  EVERY SINGLE SUPER DELEGATE SHOULD HAVE THIS LETTER IN THEIR HANDS.  OBVIOUSLY, TO SOME IT WON'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE BUT TO THOSE WHO STILL HAVE A CONSCIENCE LEFT, IT SHOULD GIVE THEM PAUSE THAT VOTES HAVE BEEN STOLEN FROM HILLARY CLINTON. THIS, MORE THAN ANYTHING, WILL FRACTURE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IF OBAMA WINS THE NOMINATION BY ILLEGAL MEANS. HOWARD DEAN BETTER LISTEN UP!  HILLARY SUPPORTERS WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!

by NURSERATCHET 2008-05-02 09:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Beacause she neglected to campaign much in caucus states, except for Iowa - her campaign admitted that was their plan.  I heard one of her surrogates say, in response to a reporter who said 'what about (and he names some of the smaller AND caucus states)' :  small states, small states, caucuses - don't count'

Obama's campaign adopted a 50 state strategy-and got on the ground from day one.  Clinton did not and the results reflect their campaigns.

by mariannie 2008-05-02 11:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

If that is the case, then what about the states where they had both, and there was a large discrepancy? How do you explain that?

by splashy 2008-05-03 01:56AM | 0 recs
Has anyone considered that some of the same people

who were behind the Bush frauds might be behind the Obama frauds?

Or is that just too much for many naive folk to grasp?

by architek 2008-05-03 06:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Uprated.  TR Abuse.

by fogiv 2008-05-03 11:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Make no mistake: this is the first legitimate claim of shenanigans in caucus contests this year. The diarist claims to have evidence to back his statements up. He is the first to have that kind of evidence.

So don't just assume that because one set of allegations is true, that all allegations are. Iowa was legit, despite reports; the level of caucusgoers with unverifiable addresses was LOWER than in years past. And in Washington, the local press reported zero verifiable cases of voter fraud.

And, lest you forget, in Nevada, it was Obama's supporters accusing Clinton's voters of "dirty tricks."

So take this diary for what it is: great investigative reporting. But don't make the jump to assuming that every other negative allegation was true.

-Ben

by motbob 2008-05-02 09:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

All kinds of evidence .... seven weeks after the fact.  Cmon. I have a bridge to sell anyone on the list serve ...

by stryan 2008-05-02 09:42PM | 0 recs
Maybe they were afraid to come forward until

the chances of Clinton winning were more than zero.. i.e. RISK OF INTIMIDATION WAS LESS

by architek 2008-05-03 06:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud
Its all fraud.  All of it ... popular vote, most states won, pledged delegate lead.  
C'mon ... just like the supposed fraud playing out in NC today with fake ballots and Clinton mailers on new voter process to AA's.  
Drinking KOOOOL AID .... lets be focused on what is important, November and down ticket races.  We dont get anywhere near comprehensive health care reform and environmental policy without ensuring we own 56-58 Senate votes ... must have filibuster proof mandates ... or, a suspension in the gas tax. /snark
by stryan 2008-05-02 09:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

After rereading the diary I am becoming less and less convinced of the diarist's claims. If the Hillary Clinton had solid proof of caucus fraud, they would have used it by now. Think about it. Alegre, Texas Darlin.... if evidence like this fell into your lap, wouldn't you use it? Wouldn't you immediately go to the press and say, "See? What have we been telling you? Obama has been running a dirty campaign all along!"

This has not happened. Sen. Clinton has brought up William Ayers. She has used bin Laden in her campaign ads. Those are not particularly dirty tactics, to be sure; there are solid arguments for their use. But they are less extreme than taking this story to the press.

In short, these claims, I feel, cannot be true. Occam's razor suggests that all you bring to the table are either real occurrences that have been hugely exaggeratedly, or false accusations. Anything else would have already been used.

If anyone has any counterarguments I would be happy to hear them, but I just don't see how this is possible.

-Ben

by motbob 2008-05-02 09:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

The behavior of supporters on blogs in not entirely akin to the behavior of supporters in the campaign.  Truthfully, it is far more in the interests of the HRC campaign (and the Democratic Party, for that matter) to have the issue resolved legally and quietly behind closed doors.

by hornplayer 2008-05-03 05:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud

Google Texas Voter Fraud Caucus and see the videos... then come back here and tell me what you think.

by mrstas 2008-05-03 06:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

Thanks for putting this out there, John. We had heard about this, something about 200 instances of irregularities. This needs to be dealt with.

by Nobama 2008-05-02 10:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

The campaign said there were about 2000 voter complaints. I believe there are about 200 affidavits for serious irregularities. The link to the legal team statement refers to the the initial processing of information.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 10:18PM | 0 recs
Question...

Was this cross posted somewhere, because what I find most unbelievable is that the initial responses to this diary.  

Did you people actually read this and process it within 4 minutes of it being posted here?

by map 2008-05-02 10:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Question...

I have posted various forms of this here at MyDD. If you search back though my comments at the Burnt Orange Report and here, you will get the same basic overview. Hillary people have paid close attention to this, have urged me to do this diary for weeks. You will note that a few MyDD regulars in this thread were in El Paso with me. They saw this first hand.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 10:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Question...

I know you couldn't personally be aware of this, but have you heard credible stories of the Clinton campaign using strong arm or other questionable tactics in Obama strongholds?  Say, for example, the District 23 in Dallas?

by map 2008-05-02 10:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Question...

Or in SD 12 in Tarrant County?

by The Distillery 2008-05-02 10:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Question...
No. I operate under the assumption that any trumped up charge will fly to the top of the dKos rec list, with rumblings in places like MyDD. Although it is possible that Clinton people did the sorts of things I saw from Obama people, I doubt it, or at least I doubt their irregularities rose to the magnitude that we documented in El Paso and elsewhere.

This is the Obamasphere, after all. If the Clinton campaign had done what was mentioned in the Utrecht memo, it would have dominated the dKos rec list for five weeks.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 11:04PM | 0 recs
I did some research just for you.

It's from dKos, just to forewarn you if you're on strike:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3 /30/12149/6922

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3 /30/115541/646

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3 /29/205851/913
This one's my favorite.  I quote, "We went to the credentials committee to wait for them to review the challenges asserted for our precinct.  We also found out that the person who made the challenges, let's call her Paula, was also the person elected at our precinct caucus as the acting secretary.  She also signed everyone in that night.  She also certified the vote that night.  She was also a member of our precinct's Clinton delegation.  She also happened to be the chair of the credentials committee at the State Senate Convention.

Members of the Obama delegation were furious.  Here they were trying to use standard Republican-style voter suppression tactics and we were convinced that they were going to prevail in their challenges."

by The Distillery 2008-05-03 12:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

I think it makes a good talking point for Hillary to diminish Obama's claim to the 'cleaner than thou' 'holier than thou' argument.

All in all, I think caucuses should not have equal weight to primaries.  As the Texas and Washington results showed, caucus results are nowhere near an accurate account of how the electorate at large voted when playing by the rules of a general election.  

The argument against overvaluing or giving equal value or weight to caucuses v. primaries is important for Hillary to make, especially if she keeps winning primaries through early June.

by khyber900 2008-05-02 10:23PM | 0 recs
Point of Interest

TDP rules are not state laws.  While I agree that they should be followed in all primary and caucus elections, your suggestion "that people should be in jail" is a little ridiculous.  Under what charge please?

by The Distillery 2008-05-02 10:51PM | 0 recs
A fair point

And a key point. One would assume that fabricating a delegate count could be prosecuted. A few of us like Bill, whose account I linked, originally assumed that this sort of voter fraud would put people behind bars. But it turns out that stealing an election in a caucus state is no big deal.

Should this sort of crime have an associated punishment, like time in jail? Yes. Does it? No.

by Pacific John 2008-05-02 11:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

there's a reason the BO crowd is so fond of caucuses, and i think this is the reason why. the active BO supporters online portray the behaviour mentioned in this diary, so THAT's pretty substantial supporting evidence in my book.

by swissffun 2008-05-03 12:01AM | 0 recs
Oh please

you are ridiculous

by SocialDem 2008-05-04 01:04PM | 0 recs
My response to your update is located...

in this diary.

by nklein 2008-05-03 03:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

I live in Houston! Not only was there fraud there was intimidation!

I was responsible for driving some of my elderly frail neighbors to their caucus location which they were very relunctant to do mostly because they are extremely nervous about being out at night for reasons such as they cannot see well because of cataracts or for fear of being a victim of crime. When we got there, the place was mobbed and there was a lot of shouting from the pro-Obama supporters who didn't have identification or proof that they had voted earlier but were given a pass anyway while Clinton's were not! Then an oaf of a guy started accusing my neighbors loudly and in a very intimidating manner that they were probably voting for Hillary and that the only reason they were going to do so was because they didn't want a black man to be President.

As a result of being addressed this way, they turned to me and told me they wanted to go home because they were scared that they were going to be pushed and fall resulting in some broken bones. So Hillary lost 5 votes that night! Caucuses are not democratic and if they give Obama the nomination by the number of delegates not because he won the popular vote - I'm voting for Nader and will never be associated with this corrupt party ever again!

The son of my best friend was running a caucus for Hillary and I reported the incident to him. He told me he would register my complaint to the Clinton Austin Headquarters but  I never heard anything else about it - They have my name and phone number if they need it as a witness! Personally I think the party had given orders not to make a fuss for fear of bad publicity or for fear of a riot of some kind. It's all disgusting really!

I also read in the Chronicle that Clinton would not pursue any legal actions personally but would back anyone who wanted to do it on their own. Who has the class? but unfortunately it's not going to give her any more delegates!

by suzieg 2008-05-03 03:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

I have been hearing about the behaviors witnessed during the Caucus' states all over the country. I beleive that it is to Hillary Clinton's credit as a good democrat that her campaign has not publicly aired these things for the good of the party. It hopefully can be handled privately, by people in the know, without smearing either candidate or  their supporters.

by glennmcgahee 2008-05-03 03:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

So after doing so many things that harm the Democratic party (like calling out Congress members to vote on her gas tax), she's now concerning herself with the welfare of the party.

by nklein 2008-05-03 09:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

Oh, please.  I read a very similar diary over at Kos right after the Texas primary and caucus that complained of the very same behavior FROM CLINTON SUPPORTERS!  Bullying tactics and chicanery yadda yadda yadda.  It sounds to me like it was a rough and tumble process and both sides did their best to WIN!  

As an erstwhile Edwards supporter I have been innoculated from falling in love with either Obama or Clinton and I have to say that there isn't much to choose between the two of them or their supporters.  You guys mirror image each other, like two tribes of hostile chimpanzees making aggressive postures at the other.  I have to say that it would be amusing if it didn't bode badly for our chances in November.

by oldbattleaxe 2008-05-03 04:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

This perhaps the most pithy, intelligent and honest comment that I have read in this whole diary.  Thank you.

by nklein 2008-05-03 09:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

It should be clear to any one who thinks that, when there are such wide discrepencies between a primary vote and a caucus, there's something fishy going on.

I believe it behooves anyone who has knowledge of these fraudulent and illegal activities that were carried on in the caucuses to come forward and disclose them

by LA 2008-05-03 05:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)
John.
Again, what a superb job.
by durendal 2008-05-03 06:19AM | 0 recs
Yuck, is that Sour Grapes I'm Tasting?

by LoneStarLefty 2008-05-03 07:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

John, thanks for posting this. I have been frustrated for weeks about the caucus system. Obviously, there is much the media is ignoring about the BO campaign and about the candidate. I agree we need to focus on the issues, but the character of the candidate does matter. I hope there is some clear, critical and widespread reporting and discussion about BO's meteoric rise in Illinois politics and about his time in the State Senate. How can there be no records of his time as a state senator, for example? So, good for you John, and I do appreciate the respectful way you honored the process of getting this out. And it is clearly understandable why you did not write this weeks ago.

by susanclare 2008-05-03 07:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

I know a couple in Colorado who are long time democrats and  Hillary supporters. When they went to caucus, they were completely blown away by how many young people showed up and how excited and involved they were, all rallying in support of Senator Obama. They said they realized that elections are about the future and that is when they decided to switch their votes to Obama. This story is not unique and explains why Obama does so well in caucus. If any 'fraud' has taken place, the Clinton's are well represented legally. They have challenged any activity that has appeared remotely outside of their favor. Truth, reason and logic will prevail.

by grasshopper 2008-05-03 08:24AM | 0 recs
That is not true..

The Clinton campaign has let a lot of cases go by because the Obama folk always try to spin it as 'sore loser' situations for her. So even some fairly clearcut cases have been passed on. This intimidation has been happening all over the country. There are many, many cases.

I would also expect that they might claim that the (often young, inexperienced) Obama supporters 'were ignorant of the laws'.

by architek 2008-05-04 05:22AM | 0 recs
It is true. n/t

by grasshopper 2008-05-04 05:31PM | 0 recs
Nothing wrong with investigating
I think the only fair thing to do is investigate all of the caucus states to make sure rules were applied and that no one voted that was not suppose too. If it turns out that it was disorganization then there is no harm done.
I can't imagine Obama being so stuipid or arrogant enough to actually cheat. If he did then the GOP will have a field day with it if he becomes the nominee. It would be perfect ammunition to portray him as a product of Chicago politics. All it would take is one caucus goer to admit that they voted illegally and that it was promoted by the Obama campaign. Just because the DNC is ignoring it does not mean that the republicans will ignore it. If Obama did cheat however then he should be deny the nomination. Something like this can destroy the democratic party. The republicans will do anything to win and they will love nothing else but to destroy the democratic party. Also if there is evidence that Obama cheated at the caucuses then the MSM will mention it no doubt but not until he gets the official nomination. We all know the MSM is republican owned and will do everything in their power to make sure McCain gets sworn in.
by harmony94 2008-05-03 08:51AM | 0 recs
Foolish Hillary Supporter

I thought Hillary won in Texas?  Wasn't that the propaganda?  And why raise this issue now, weeks after the vote tally was done?  Hmmm?  This diary smells fishy to me.

Looks like a Hillary supporter is trying to create a scandal to steal the votes, again.  

Sounds like this diarist is full of sour grapes to me guys and gals.  

What's with the caucus bashing?  The caucuses weren't designed to facilitate the record # of people who showed up.  Maybe they will redesign it to facilitate the huge #s.  You have got to really support your candidate to stick it out at the caucuses, and I saw both Hillary and Obama supporters stick it out.  I should know, my precinct caucus in Washington lasted 16 hours!!!  

But the fact is, there were more Obama supporters than Hillary supporters and that's why Obama won in the caucus states.  Obama just inspired MORE supporters to care enough to attend and stick it out at the caucuses.  That's the ONLY reason Hillary lost in the Texas caucus, she didn't have enough support.

She won the primary, so then she should have also won the caucus if only those same people went to the caucus and voted for her.  But many of the voters in the primary were non-democrats who voted for her and didn't have enough vested in the Democratic nomination to stick it out in the caucus.  That's the reason for the two step process in Texas, to prevent those (Republicans) who weren't really democrats to have an undue impact on the nomination.  For this reason, caucuses are great at shutting out Republicans in the Democratic nomination.

So let's come together and stop bickering and support the front runner, Obama.  If you don't like the caucus style of voting, call your local Democratic headquarter.  But caucuses really do weed out the non-Democrats.

In any case, Texas will most likely go to McCain in the general election, unless we stop the bickering and start getting more Texans to vote for a Democrat.  If Texas doesn't go Democrat in the fall, what's the point of this diary?

by hienmango 2008-05-03 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Foolish Hillary Supporter

I'm all for people exposing caucus fraud--if it happened.  But this seems awfully late after the fact.  I reported it immediately after it occurred in Nevada.  And it seems awfully devoid of specifics, while my reports were full of them.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 11:13AM | 0 recs
You are a fruad....

"In a 13 delegate precinct where Obama should have won approximately 4 delegates, the Obama supporters attempted to award 19 delegates to Obama."

This immediately made me suspicious.  You say it's a  13-delegate precinct and Obama folks tried to get 19 out of it?  That's like that guy who tried to cash a $36 billion check.  I don't think they're that stupid.  You don't even provide the name of the county that you claim this happened in.

Vague.  Vague.  Vague.  Your posting is full of it.  You provide no specifics, and the one specific account you report -- the one with the elderly Hispanic woman -- is hearsay.  You didn't witness what happened to her.  

One can only conclude that you're taking a cue from Hillary and Co. and fabricating information to mislead the public.  These are the same tactics used by the Bush administration.  Bush and Hillary are breading a culture of lying and deceiving.  This is dangerous to our society.  Just look at her campaign.  All the lies and Rovian-type tactics.  She should just become what she really is: a Neo-Con.  

by froggyman 2008-05-03 10:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

And this ladies and gentlemen is the ONLY reason Obama has a lead in pledged delegates--- crooked, easily manipulated caucus systems. If every state had primaries where everyone can vote and its one person, one vote Hillary Clinton would be leading in every possible metric. Look at WA state as a perfect example, yes Obama still won but look at the margin.

by rossinatl 2008-05-03 10:33AM | 0 recs
Hillary didn't win

   so fraud must've happened. That's what your argument seems to boil down to.
by southernman 2008-05-03 10:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

Do you have interviews with affected people willing to go on the record about it?  I have those for Hillary's caucus fraud in Nevada.  Show me the people willing to back you up on this, and I'll agree we need an investigation.

But if we do investigate Obama activities in Texas, we should certainly investigate Clinton activities in Nevada.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 11:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

Instead of Mrs A, let us see some actual names. It's time we get hard evidence presented here.

And if it's not just an isolated incident, then MYDD and other blogs should take the lead in destroying these people. We need to get rid of these bastards from the party.

by Pravin 2008-05-03 01:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

agreed.  I've got multiple people--on tape.  And multiple written accounts from different people.

That wasn't enough for the media or for many even in the blogosphere.  This crap is a bunch of hot air by comparison--especially coming as late in the game as it does.

by thereisnospoon 2008-05-03 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

"In one example of fraud that I witnessed, one of my precinct captains, an elderly Hispanic woman, called me to report that BHO supporters had illegally seized control of the convention."  

Did you witness it, or have a phone conversation?  Because I think it would strengthen our cause if you did indeed witness it.  They were saying the same things @ other sites and even in the big media about our campaign a few months ago.

by Chelseain32 2008-05-03 01:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

I had a friend who caucused for Hillary in texas and she witnessed Obama activists murder several hillary supporters so they could gain control of the rules committee.   Apparently the bodies of these hillary supporters were then mutilated, cooked and eaten.   It was unbelievable.

by soros 2008-05-03 04:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

Obama is a proud to say he is a community organizer; maybe, he just one of those organizer of crime from Chicago.

Intimidation - that's what he's good at...and the Obama fans are learning from their Master.

by SHIBAM8P 2008-05-03 01:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

I feel that there is no reason to doubt Pacific John's word based on what he wrote here. I read in his update a response to a comment on how a minority was able to physically take control of the process in some locations. In this video age, how is this possible? Why didn't someone use their camera phone or video camera to tape once it was obvious some crazy crap was going on?

If this is true, some heads must roll and these people must be suspended from the party. Any delegates who witnessed such improprietaries and kept quiet must resign in disgrace. And I still do not understand why the Hillary camp was so soft that they could not control these thugs? What are they going to do when the republicans start their dirty tricks?

This doesnt paint a good picture of the party. I am getting disgusted with this party each day in this primary process. You got thuggery on one side and incompetence on the other.

by Pravin 2008-05-03 01:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

why are you complaining about this?   Hillary supporters always say she won Texas .. the caucus results don't mean shit because she won the popular vote.   So why are you complaining about something that doesn't matter?

by soros 2008-05-03 04:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

I wonder if there's a youTube video from 1992 that could help verify this account.

by juliewolf 2008-05-03 05:18PM | 0 recs
has a formal complaint been filed?

Is there an official complaint being made to the appropriate authorities?

Color me skeptical about a campaign partisan complaining about irregularities but not making an official complaint.

I've been involved in elections for about ten years. And there's frequently complaining in close elections by the losing side that the winners engaged in illegal or unethical behavior.

by Carl Nyberg 2008-05-03 08:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

This unsubstantiated tale was made just a bit amusing by the boy scout tone of the writing.

by mikeinsf 2008-05-03 10:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

The next move is Pacific John's.  He'll have to come forward and show us the evidence.  If he can't do that, he's just blowing smoke and wasting our time.  

If he does have evidence, it's a whole other ball game.  

But he should act quickly, so as to put an end to these claims, if they're misguided, or blow this nomination process out of the water, if his claims can be substantiated.
jp

by johncp 2008-05-04 12:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

When we got such an explosive diary, I think it's time he supplies proof to the Clinton supporters who are admins here such as Jermoe and Todd. There is no reason for them to cover this up. Or just put up a diary with audio/video streams, scanned documents. THere are plenty of Clinton supporters here who can help him with posting advanced formatted diaries.

by Pravin 2008-05-04 04:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

"In the specific case of El Paso, I am told Chair Danny Anchondo did not want to humiliate leading Obama-supporting Democrats who he will have to live with for years to come."

Danny Anchodo should resign if that is the case. He is putting being comfortable over party integrity. If this story is really that true, then there is no excuse to look out for the humiliation factor of these alleged wretched Obamaa supporters. I am an Obama supporter and even I want them jailed if that is the case. And if I lived locally, I would make sure these guys were punished in the worst way possible.  

by Pravin 2008-05-04 04:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Texas Caucus Fraud (Updated)

I can't speak to El Paso.  I was the Obama precinct chair in 4640 in Dallas County, and there was nothing remotely resembling what is alleged here. We had the predictable chaos resulting from 400 people  from 4 different precincts (and obviously 2 different candidate preferences) in one grade school cafeteria--and no one really in charge.  But eventually we got everything handled--and in ship shape.

FWIW.

by dell 2008-05-04 10:52AM | 0 recs
with all respect

let's get real here.  the texas caucuses were a goddamn mess from start to finish.  and i would bet every penny i have in the bank that team obama could easily come up with 2000 affidavits to match what team clinton has.

it cut both ways, brother.

by annatopia 2008-05-04 02:06PM | 0 recs

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