Tell us another one Senator Obama

Senator Obama is just now demonstrating righteous anger toward his former pastor over controversial remarks that he made at the pulpit - sermons that Senator Obama undoubtedly heard and did not object to during his 20+ years spent as a parishioner. Talk about a delayed reaction! The American people aren't stupid Senator: You are merely angry because he is raining on your parade.

Obama's 'Plan A' failed. He attempted to snowball the Reverend Wright controversy into a racial issue in a cynical ploy to convert it into political plutonium for his opponents. He even tried to profit from it and produced a DVD of his speech for fundraising purposes.

But the issue had legs; people didn't buy his multitude of excuses. Obama didn't walk out when most of us would have, and expects us to believe that he, a man revered for his intellect, had no inclination of what the Reverend was saying over a span of two decades.

Now, he is fulminating against the man that baptized his children and married him to his wife. But it's not about the Reverend: It's about Obama's poor political judgement. And indeed, the chickens HAVE come home to roost.

Wright is damaging his chances for the Presidency, and Obama is throwing his own preacher and former mentor under the bus. Just a month ago, Obama claimed that he could not denounce his pastor, but now he has done just that for political expediency.

Tell me another one Senator. You brought this on yourself, and it is wrong of you to blame a man of faith, albeit flawed, for speaking his mind just because you lacked the judgement and/or desire to stand up and walk out.

The American people don't buy it, nor should they. What we are getting is a window into Senator Obama's character - the character of a prototypical politician with designs on power.

Tags: Election 2008, obama, Primaries, Wright (all tags)

Comments

260 Comments

Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

I'm not buying it, and you shouldn't either. Anyone that sits and listens to a man that excuses the atrocity of 9/11 and preaches racial divisiveness doesn't get the time of day from this New Yorker.

by owl06 2008-04-29 11:21AM | 0 recs
Way to make stuff up

Obama never "sat and listened" to Wright excuse 9/11.

Seriously, do not lie.  It's bad for your soul.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 11:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Way to make stuff up

I said he sat and listened to the man that said that, and did not say he was there at the time. although, it is likely that he was.

by owl06 2008-04-29 12:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Way to make stuff up

And again, you lie.  He was NOT there for that sermon, that lie was already debunked.

Furthermore, Wright never "excused" 9/11, so that is another lie.  He rationalized it, poorly, but never excused that atrocity.  Explaining historical events is not excusing them; Wright's explanation may be bogus, but it was never meant as an excuse.

So here's a question for you: what about the rest of what Wright preached?  Do you think that God blessed America for instituting slavery, jim crow, segregation, etc.?

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Way to make stuff up

not the best defense.  It's semantic, and begs the question. Why not try saying that Obama is inexperienced and hasn't the best staff and so didn't realize that the time to distance was when he decided to run for president. That's when he ought to have done a search of all his associates to see which ones he needed to throw under the bus.  

by anna shane 2008-04-29 12:07PM | 0 recs
ha

Someone needs to institute a ban on "throw under the bus" references.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:10PM | 0 recs
Re: ha

too Hollywood?  (hey, I'd still like him as vp, does that help?)

by anna shane 2008-04-29 12:12PM | 0 recs
Re: ha

If Hillary pulled this off, how the Hell do you think Obama could reasonably be on her ticket?  He wasn't good enough to be CIC, remember? She'll be on her own.

by mikeinsf 2008-04-29 04:20PM | 0 recs
What do you mean?

If Hillary pulled this off...

You mean this latest craziness?

Did Hillary somehow go back in time, and engineered this whole thing?

by ghost 2 2008-04-29 04:27PM | 0 recs
Re: What do you mean?

Not pull off the Wright controversy... I meant pull off a victory in the face of diminishing odds.  

I understand the Wright thing is not her making.  Also, I don't think she's flipping off Obama whenever she touches her hair.

by mikeinsf 2008-04-29 04:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Way to make stuff up

I've heard many Black preachers give sermons. I've heard them with my own ears, as have members of my family and friends who all came up in a predominantly Black community. I have heard very eloquent and righteous condemnations of Jim Crow laws, slavery, segregation, the mistreatment of Black women by Black men, the mistreatment of women of any race, the need to stop the ongoing Black on Black violence, the need to help other people in distress and to help ourselves as well. I've heard discussions about the greatly harmful belief that AIDS was somehow created to destroy the Black community.

I've also heard outright condemnations of Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam (despite some of the social programs that they have been able to run in very neglected and poor neighborhoods).

If Wright represents anyone in the Black community, it is those who have given in to accepting excuses and blaming others for the mighty struggle that Black people in this country face. It's not all that different than the struggles the poor and working class and elderly and women and teenagers and young people and gay and lesbian people - categories in which Blacks are included - face every day.

Nonetheless, Obama needed Black voters. He attempted a political strategy using race that is now miserably failing him. His words describing people in PA were greatly insulting. His words in SF were insulting. Frankly, his health care policy is insulting. And besides presenting a positive iconic image for Blacks, all that benefit seems to be at risk now

I have no patience left for Obama left at this point. All I see happening from his unwillingness to just honestly let people know that Wrights' sermons were just words that did not represent the Black community, or Black theologians in general, or what he actually believed a long time ago is Black people being set up to take a fall. That's bad for America, bad for Democrats and bad for Blacks - all of us.

Obama owes it to the Black community to let everyone who will listen that Blacks may still be suffering but there are many who are dealing with it in a positive and hopeful way. I really don't care if it has ruined his chances to become the Democratic nominee.

I do care about the people who will be hurt because of Obama's arrogant, self-serving political ambitions and his sudden repudiation of his pastor. Sorry, but it is not possible that now is the first and only time that Wright has blamed Whites, or Americans in general for current problems in the Black or any other community.

I don't exactly hear many people running around saying slavery of any kind was, or is a good thing. This framing of Wright just being "descriptive" is so transparently defensive and pathetic while being manipulative is just another example of politics. The Black community, nor America in general has done nothing to deserve this type of manipulation using race as a pointed blame and punishment stick. We deserve to be able to believe what politicians say, and trust that they will actually do something substantial to address the ever growing list of things that Bush and Republicans have done to this country.

This is not what I want to be dealing with right now. How about the artificial increase in rice prices that are starving entire countries? How about anything but Wright or Obama?

by Jeter 2008-04-29 02:30PM | 0 recs
Excellent comment.

Everyone should take the time to read your comment.  

Thank you.  

by ghost 2 2008-04-29 04:31PM | 0 recs
Amen to that!

"I do care about the people who will be hurt because of Obama's arrogant, self-serving political ambitions and his sudden repudiation of his pastor."

by CoyoteCreek 2008-04-29 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Way to make stuff up

I love your comment.

by wblynch 2008-04-29 10:54PM | 0 recs
Hey folk! Historical exhibit!

The last living Wright apologist left on the earth!

25 cents!

by switching sides 2008-04-29 10:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama
He didn't excuse 9/11. The "coming home to roost" line was badly taken out of context.
by proseandpromise 2008-04-29 12:13PM | 0 recs
What about 'Bill rode us like he did Monica'

I'm sure in context that's not at all offensive.

by catfish1 2008-04-29 12:35PM | 0 recs
Re: What about 'Bill rode us like he did Monica'

In context you learn that he was quoting someone else.  But hey, you run with a GOP talking point (and GOP intellectual curiosity) all that you want.

by proseandpromise 2008-04-29 12:39PM | 0 recs
Context, people, context!!!!

Come on...crawl inside his brain and see what he REALLY meant...

You gots to be getting up in the CONTEXT!!

by switching sides 2008-04-29 10:59PM | 0 recs
Re: What about 'Bill rode us like he did Monica'

Whoops...I missed your subject line.  That changes what you mean.

No, I agree with you on the "riding dirty" line.  I thought that was the most offensive part of all of the clips.  

I'm not saying Wright has clean hands.  I just hate that people are getting rec'd diaries repeating talking points that are demonstrably false.  i.e. "Obama sat under someone who excused 9/11"  That is completely not true.  

by proseandpromise 2008-04-29 12:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

I KNEW I would read "context" here. Thanks.

by JFK464 2008-04-29 02:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Yes. "Context" is so tiresome when we want bumper-sticker discourse.

by mikeinsf 2008-04-29 04:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

He (Wright) misinterpreted the "chickens" line in the first place, but Wright's meaning was very obvious. Why isn't Obama asked about what controversial opinions he first disagreed with, and when did he first hear them.

by handsomegent 2008-04-29 03:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Because it matters very little.  Do you honestly think Obama is a secret black supremecist, anti-American.  What exactly do you think this implies about Obama?  Maybe that he has bad political judgement...maybe.  But, honestly, isn't this just about an underlying fear of Obama for a variety of incredulous reasons?  Even if you don't have those fears, you at best seem to be exploiting the existence of those fears in others.  Or am I missing some other meaning of this Wright flap?

by proseandpromise 2008-04-29 06:30PM | 0 recs
Wright DID say something new this weekend

He said Obama says what he says for political purposes and in response to the latest poll.

by Trickster 2008-04-29 12:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Wright DID say something new this weekend

That's interesting.

So, to recap:

God Damn America - OK
Vote based on skin color - OK
Gov created AIDS to kill Blacks - OK
Supporting Hillary would be like allowing the Clintons to anally rape you - OK
Black people have different brains than White people - OK

All of this is OK.

But:

Barack Obama is just a politician - NOT OK

Yeah, I think I see the pattern there.  Frankly, calling Barack out on his bullchips is probably one of the most rational and agreeable things I have ever heard the Reverend say.

by bobbank 2008-04-29 12:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Wright DID say something new this weekend

But wait!!! Didn't you listen to his pastor in context? (snark)

by JFK464 2008-04-29 02:09PM | 0 recs
Good point.

That "context" balloon has been deflated.

by Ed J 2008-04-29 04:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Good point.

CONTEXT PEOPLE!!!!!

wahhhhh!!!!

by switching sides 2008-04-29 10:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Wright DID say something new this weekend

Bob,

That post wasn't in the least bit honest. Obama never said those statements were ok.  He unambiguosly condemned those statements.

I really can't believe you just posted that utter bullshit.

by map 2008-04-29 02:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Wright DID say something new this weekend

But you have to admit, the thing that finally got Obama riled is when Wright called him a politician.  That is the commenter's point, and it's extremely valid.

by Montague 2008-04-29 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Wright DID say something new this weekend

"Frankly, calling Barack out on his bullchips is probably one of the most rational and agreeable things I have ever heard the Reverend say."

Your entire post was so well said, bravo to you!

When BO likes to talk about changing the dialogue in national politics for the better, along with nice things on the international front like meeting with terrorist dictators without preconditions, I guess he didn't realize that people can do mean things, no matter how nice you are to them.

That's why we have armies, and guns, to defend ourselves against meanies who don't act nice, and aren't sensitive to us, and try to kill us no matter how nice we are to them.

Golly gee whiz, some people just aren't fair! Reverend Wright just isn't fair, after Barack was so nice and didn't throw him under the bus. Basic poor political judgement on Barack's part.

That's why older people who have seen life first hand support Clinton, not Obama. We think she gets it.

by 07rescue 2008-04-29 02:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Wright DID say something new this weekend

I gave you a rec'd just for the last sentence.

What was it about his own judgement that Obama claimed was far superior to others?

Remember? Judgement Matters.  It's actually an Obama campaign slogan.

by ghost 2 2008-04-29 04:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Wright DID say something new this weekend

Yeah but he said that words matter, as well.

And we all know what poppycock that was.

by switching sides 2008-04-29 10:56PM | 0 recs
Obama: Wright was insensitive to ME

and what MY CAMPAIGN IS TRYING TO DO.

That's as specific as he got, from what I saw.

by catfish1 2008-04-29 12:33PM | 0 recs
TR's uncalled for but

lolololololloolol

Obama can't win with some of you. He came out as forcefully as he ever did against Wright and now Wright is a man of faith and Obama shouldn't have thrown him under the bus. And this makes it to the top of the rec list.
WoW.

by Drewid 2008-04-29 04:43PM | 0 recs
Re: TR's uncalled for but

Under the train, dude.

Under the train.

by switching sides 2008-04-29 11:11PM | 0 recs
Sore loser.

by dystopianfuturetoday 2008-04-29 08:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

the problem isn't what wright says- that's all covered by freedom of speech and religion. wright
is free to say whatever, because he's not purporting to represent the whole community. people can listen to him or not- their choice.

the problem is for a person who wishes to lead this country to listen to it for twenty years, and not raise a single objection.

by campskunk 2008-04-29 11:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

your right. That is a huge problem. And if there was a candidate that sat there and listen to it for 20 years, then we might have a problem. But Wright has not given 20 years worth of sermons like this, and Barack Obama has not sat through 20 years of sermons like this. But you don't care about what actually happened, you care about the smear.

by BlueGAinDC 2008-04-29 11:30AM | 0 recs
Hold on

Wright gave his roosting chickens sermon the Sunday after 9/11, and it's difficult for me to believe nobody clued Obama into that sermon (assuming he didn't hear it himself) a long time before 2008.  He didn't get loony over the past month or so, he's been talking the same game for years - apparently Obama even considered severing relation at the beginning of the campaign.  

The question I have - and I'll admit it's unfair to ask it of you, here, since only Obama can answer it - is if Obama finds many of Wright's stances personally unacceptable (as he seems to at this point), why did he not sever the relationship some time ago?  The reality is that he did not get around to walking away from Wright until it became politically expedient.  Which makes me wonder if he really honestly disagrees with Wright at all, or if he just knows Wright has become a liability.  

by Thirsty Gator 2008-04-29 11:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

He has to distance himself, and yes it is because of politics. But anyone who considers this rationally understands why he did not leave the church even if he knew that some of his views were controversial. Politics is not the reason Obama attented church, and listening to people who you disagree with is never a bad thing.

Since when does going to church mean you agree or even tolerate what your pastor says?

by BlueGAinDC 2008-04-29 11:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

People don't attend church to do research on opposing viewpoints.  They choose a church because on balance they agree with what's being preached.  What possible other reason to go?  Oh, unless you just want to be seen going there.

***A

by adrienne4dean 2008-04-29 12:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

to curry favor in the community and get yourself elected.... could that be the reason?

by owl06 2008-04-29 12:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

Yeap, while we're at it, let's diminish/dismiss/insult Obama's faith.

Disgusting.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

he's CLINGING TO IT.

by owl06 2008-04-29 12:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

People stick with a church because it is a community, not a convenience store.  If you've established a long-term relationship with that community, you don't just up and walk away because of a few remarks by the pastor any more than you leave your spouse after your first fight.  There's a lot more to it than just saying "I don't agree; I'm out of here." That's just an unreasonable expectation; but unreasonable seems to be the hallmark of the Wright bashers.

by rb608 2008-04-29 12:13PM | 0 recs
Partially correct

It would take an awful lot of fundamental disagreement with my pastor to run me out of my church.  But in the end, if you sit in the pew (literally or metaphorically as a member of the church) you give your tacit approval to the pastor's words and actions.  There are things my pastor could say that would make me find another church - or at least a new pastor for my church.

by Thirsty Gator 2008-04-29 12:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Partially correct

you give your tacit approval to the pastor's words and actions.
I don't see it that way.  I'm there as a member of the church as a whole, not as a personal affirmation of one man.

by rb608 2008-04-29 12:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

That's not true at all. Sermons are a chance for views to be shared, but there are many other reasons to go to church. Like, to pray, and to connect with God.

by BlueGAinDC 2008-04-29 12:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

People don't attend church to do research on opposing viewpoints.  They choose a church because on balance they agree with what's being preached.  What possible other reason to go?  Oh, unless you just want to be seen going there.

Or both.

by creeper1014 2008-04-29 03:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

He didn't hear it himself, stop pushing BS.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 11:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

Obama said that at first, but then changed his tune a few days later, saying he "may have" been in attendance when Wright made controversial remarks. That's a 'yes.'

by owl06 2008-04-29 11:59AM | 0 recs
Again, very wrong

This is really a matter of reading comprehension.

Obama was PROVEN to be in Florida on the day of that sermon.  When he said he was in attendance during controversial remarks, that wasn't a specific reference to that sermon.  It was a general reference to the kind of controversial things a colorful-to-outlandish-to-kinda-crazy preacher would say.  Controversial, like perhaps condemning homosexuality, etc.

So it's not a "yes".  You misunderstand entirely what happened.

I corrected you --- now stop pushing that lie.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Again, very wrong

you are a very angry person.

by owl06 2008-04-29 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Again, very wrong

I don't care where Obama was when Wright made those comments. Instead of denouncing Wright's anti-white, anti-American tirade, Obama lectured us on race. Bad move. And then many Obama supporters lecture you on taking Wright's words in context. If you've had friends die of AIDS, and I have, then there's no context which makes  his words acceptable. Period. Obama CHOSE to spend 20 years with his mentor. Bad. Move.

by JFK464 2008-04-29 02:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

And you know, he may well have been there.  The thing is, when you're sitting in a pew and a pastor delivers a sermon, and delivers it with fire and passion, and that passion sweeps you up and takes you along; that's a helluva pastor.  And what he says in those moments flows along with the ideas and principles before and following; and he sounds reasonable and damned straight in his righteous indignation.  Then somebody takes a handful of passionate words and puts them in a tape loop and it doesn't even sound like the same sermon anymore without what came before or after.  

Now, I know I sat in the choir loft of my church for nigh on 20 years, and I have no doubt my pastor said some shit I didn't agree with; but I'll be damned if I remember a word of it.

What's the BFD anyway?  

by rb608 2008-04-29 12:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

"What's the BFD anyway" is exactly right.

And just to be clear, he was NOT there for that sermon.  Crazy rightwingers tried to prove it, and travel records showed that Obama was in Florida at the time.

But yea, this isn't actually a "big deal", as in there is no issue of substance here.  It's basically two things (that may overlap for some people): (1) a chance to attack a political opponent, and (2) the opportunity for racists to get worked up over a black preacher saying "anti-white" things.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:22PM | 0 recs
we do not agree

I think this is a big deal indeed.  "God Damn America" doesn't work for me.  At all.  Yes, I've read Zinn and Chomsky and I get the history.  But this is my home, warts and all.  

by Thirsty Gator 2008-04-29 12:40PM | 0 recs
Re: we do not agree

So you think God looked down at America in the era of slavery, and blessed that aspect of America?  You think God looked down at America and gave a big thumbs up to segregation?

Or do you think God saw those crimes against humanity and saw sin and evil?

Seriously, warts and all is fine, but to pretend that those actions were anything but damnable is laughable.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:46PM | 0 recs
Nope.

But I think nations, as well as people, can be forgiven.

by Thirsty Gator 2008-04-29 12:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Nope.

So, at the time, during and in terms of segregation, was America on the "Bless" side of God, or the "Damned" side of God?

Obama, by the way, agrees with you.  In his big speech on race, that was his driving point.  Unlike Wright, he thinks America has and will continue to improve.  Wright, because of his own generational history, is strongly focused on the crimes themselves.  Obama recognizes those historic wrongs, but thinks America is getting better.

I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say that God would consider American's racial history "sinful."

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:51PM | 0 recs
Again, we simply disagree

I've watched the sermon, and others.  I watched the whole hour with Wright on Moyers.  "God Damn America" isn't the only problem I had/have with Wright.  But if my pastor starts repeating "God Damn America" from the pulpit in any given sermon, she and I are going to have a strong disagreement.

Obama's caught between a rock and a hard place on this.  The right time for disagreeing with Wright about this was years ago.  He did not do so, at least publicly.  There aren't a lot of avenues for him to gracefully exit this predicament.  It doesn't mean he's not going to win the nomination.  It does mean he's been damaged.

by Thirsty Gator 2008-04-29 12:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

Obama needs a neurological work-up.  He didn't hear this, he doesn't remember that.  Something's wrong.

***A

by adrienne4dean 2008-04-29 12:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

It's not like he created a story about mortal danger to promote his candidacy.  Maybe you tuck your M.D. back into your drawer and start talking about the issues.

by nklein 2008-04-29 12:58PM | 0 recs
here you go

Either Obama is not very well-connected to the community of his church (which I don't believe for a second) or he was being willfully ignorant of the situation.  You do not have to have your ass in the pew to hear what the sermon was about this past Sunday, particularly if it was at or on the edge of crazy.  People talk about it.  As a state senator in 2001, you can bet your ass Obama heard about the roosting chickens sermon pretty quickly after it happened even if he wasn't there.

by Thirsty Gator 2008-04-29 12:46PM | 0 recs
Video of 9/11 sermon for sale on church website

and all those videos were for sale well into March of this year.

by catfish1 2008-04-29 12:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

Obama never agreed with Wright's racial analysis of America, from the very beginning of their relationship, as his first book makes clear. Excuse me while I quote at length from a New Yorker article:

"The first time that Barack Obama met the Reverend Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr., at Trinity United Church of Christ, on the South Side of Chicago, in the late nineteen-eighties, the young community organizer tried to make a point about the growing importance of class division in America. As Obama described the exchange in his autobiography, "Dreams from My Father," Wright wasn't having any of it: "These miseducated brothers, like that sociologist at the University of Chicago, talking about `the declining significance of race.' Now, what country is he living in?" The deluded black scholar in question was William Julius Wilson, whose 1978 book of that title analyzed the economic forces affecting black Americans and advocated universal remedies over race-specific ones. Wright, a proponent of black liberation theology, dismissed every remark about class from Obama with a categorical racial answer, and Obama allowed the topic to drop. As we all now know, he also joined Wright's church.

That conversation haunts Obama's campaign for the Presidency, in more ways than one. Their first encounter apparently set the pattern between pastor and parishioner whenever politics came up in church. As Obama suggested in Philadelphia on March 18th, when he delivered an intimate lecture on the politics of race, he deferred to the authority of the older man's experience--to Wright's "memories of humiliation and doubt and fear . . . the anger and the bitterness of those years"--even though Obama shared neither the extent of the experience nor the harsh views that derived from it."

Obama was attracted to the spirituality, the thriving community and activism of the church, not the racial politics. Here is Obama, on March 14th, when the endless youtube clips began looping:

"And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments. But because Rev. Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church.

Let me repeat what I've said earlier. All of the statements that have been the subject of controversy are ones that I vehemently condemn. They in no way reflect my attitudes and directly contradict my profound love for this country."

The disagreements have been there all along, as has the tension between Obama's attraction to the man as a spiritual mentor and his clear and immediate rejection of his racial politics. This may well have been politically naive--in Dreams, Obama says he was mostly concerned about Trinity's being "too upwardly mobile" when he joined--but it can also be intellectually honest.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/20 08/03/31/080331taco_talk_packer
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-oba ma/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.htm l

by tomchaps 2008-04-29 02:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Hold on

You make a good point about Obama's strong need for spirituality and community.  

Most of us have that need, and that's a big reason people join spiritual communities of every religion. Let's not lose sight of that.

by ghost 2 2008-04-29 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

Wright may not have given sermons like that every Sunday, but it's impossible to believe that in 20 years Obama never heard any of them.  He had to have known exactly what kind of preacher -- a preacher of hate -- Wright was and is.  But Obama stayed anyway.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 11:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

Don't simplify this --- Wright is not a "preacher of hate."  He FOUGHT hate his whole life.

I love how anger from the black community becomes wholly representative of that community, and anger at racist U.S. policies is dismissed and diminished.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 11:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

He did not fight hate.  He added to it.

This does not take away from the good things his church has done, and by all accounts there are many, but neither do those good things excuse the preaching of hate.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 12:02PM | 0 recs
No, he fought hate

He was a black preacher starting in the early 70s, working within the mostly white UCC, and has served in many religious and civic organizations.  He has dealt with real racism his entire life.  He has fought real racism.

Crazy to me that such a blind eye can be turned to the real racism against African-Americans that is such a significant part of America's history.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:17PM | 0 recs
Re: No, he fought hate

Nothing I have said justifies your clear implication that I have turned a blind eye to "real" racism, and I find the suggestion highly offensive.  Furthermore, there is nothing unreal about Wright's racism.  It is not okay just because he's black.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 12:24PM | 0 recs
You are turning a blind eye

if you don't acknowledge that Wright has fought far greater racism than he himself has espoused.

This is why this issue is such BS; people want to talk about it in the vacuum of Wright's church --- what about what happened to African-Americans throughout our history?  There lay the real crimes, not some loudmouthed preacher's outrageous statements about government-created AIDS epidemics.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:28PM | 0 recs
Re: You are turning a blind eye

One act of racism does not excuse another, ESPECIALLY when it is coming from someone who holds himself out as a moral leader, as the "reverend" Wright does.

The issue is not -- to use one of your favorite expressions -- "BS", but your arguments are.  Phonies like you have given liberals a bad name.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 12:41PM | 0 recs
Re: You are turning a blind eye

I never said it was an excuse.  I was pointing out that your statement "He did not fight hate.  He added to it" is ENTIRELY FALSE.  He fought hate!  He fought hate greater and powerful than he ever espoused!  That is plain, honest fact.  He is a black man born in the 1940s.  Do you think he might have "fought" some racism along the way?

No, you want to deny him even that.  You want to say that he fought nothing, that all he did was generate hate.  That is the very definition of turning a blind eye.  You want to punish him for his current views without even acknowledging that he fought those same views of the other side; and the proponents for hating blacks have always had the greater power.

"Phony"? Hilarious.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:44PM | 0 recs
Re: You are turning a blind eye

If you want to call helping the black community fighting hate, I can't stop you.  I think it would be a whole lot more honest to say he did a lot to help black people -- certainly a good thing --, but at the same time he fed the fires of hate with his preaching.  That's not what a preacher should do.  He's no Martin Luther King.

You're so busy slicing and dicing -- and excusing -- some forms of racism that you can't see it when it's right in front of you.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 01:01PM | 0 recs
He became what he hated

It happens, even to good people. He became a racist. He stereotypes his own race.

by catfish1 2008-04-29 12:37PM | 0 recs
Re: He became what he hated

He does have a lot of hate, and you could say he is a racist.  That being said, his racism pales in comparison to the racism he and his community have fought against for decades.

He's pissed off at white America, because white America ran the government that institutionalized racism and violated civil rights based on race.   He should be pissed off; I would be, too.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:40PM | 0 recs
Re: He became what he hated

His anger is understandable, but it does not excuse the preaching of hate from the pulpit.  I may understand how he got the way he is, but that doesn't mean he should be anybody's moral or spiritual leader.

I find your repeated attempts to parse and quantify and rate different kinds of racism -- and excuse some of them even when they do great harm -- deeply offensive.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 12:45PM | 0 recs
Re: He became what he hated

Your embrace of equating Wright's words with segregation/jim crow/etc. is deeply offensive.

The fact of the matter is, focusing on Wright's racism while ignoring the racist history of America is ridiculous.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:49PM | 0 recs
Re: He became what he hated

So anyone offended by Wright's racism can't say a word about it unless they first write a definitive textbook on all facets of race in America?

Now, that's ridiculous.

I'm done with you.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 01:10PM | 0 recs
Re: He became what he hated

"focusing on Wright's racism while ignoring the racist history of America is ridiculous."

No one is ignoring real racism, and I think that is the problem with your defense of Wright. Many people prefer to call out racism wherever we see it, including in Wright's positions, as well as in our society.

Just calling someone's statement "offensive" doesn't automatically invalidate their point. Sometimes it is exactly what you need to hear from the other side, as a reality check. When lots of people who are usually on your side start telling you what you are saying is BS it may be time to start listening and checking out their position. You may still reject it, but you owe it to yourself to give it a fair hearing.

Making excuses for hate speech doesn't cut it with many people, including myself. Older people may be more hurt by their past experiences, but also have had more time to mature and self correct, so that defense doesn't completely hold water, especially when we are talking about a purported spiritual leader.

by 07rescue 2008-04-29 02:28PM | 0 recs
He is racist

I could say that and I did because he is.

The core of racism is stereotyping people based on race.

He hurts his own race by espousing what he does. He is pissed off. It's OK to be pissed off.

But at some point you can make your anger constructive or destructive.

His appearances yesterday and the day before: destructive.

by catfish1 2008-04-29 12:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

So you're saying that Wright preached hate for 20 years?  Give me an example, 'cause I haven't seen one yet.

by rb608 2008-04-29 12:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

This is a joke, right?  Watch the video at the top of this diary, or watch some of his sermons on YouTube.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 12:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

I've seen lots of them.  No problem here.  Which words would you label as "preaching hate"?

by rb608 2008-04-29 01:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

Get serious.  It's not the words you use; it's the message.  I won't play this game with you.  You are wasting my time.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 01:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

Sorry, but you are substituting your personal interpretation for facts and transcripts.  Sorry if rational discussion is a waste of your time.  That seems to be a chronic symptom here at MyHRC.

by rb608 2008-04-29 04:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

I actually listen to Obama's statement today... I felt sorry for him, he just doesn't know what to do.

And he wants to be the President ...

by SHIBAM8P 2008-04-29 01:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

"I felt sorry for him, he just doesn't know what to do."

This is a good lesson for him that people aren't always fair or nice, and changing the dynamics of Washington and the world isn't going to happen because he is nice to people (at least superficially).

Many people have their own agendas, and couldn't care less how they hurt others in their pursuit of them.

by 07rescue 2008-04-29 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell Us Another One senator Obama

I have been a member of the leadership of a fairly large church in the past, and I am here to tell you, one does not write checks the size Obama was writing for two decades and not be intimately involved with the pastor personally and the philosophy/mission of the church corporately.  I refuse to believe that Sen. Obama was clueless about this - there is no way he could have been.

Only Christmas/Easter churchgoers have that level of ignorance about their own church.

by jarhead5536 2008-04-29 12:06PM | 0 recs
bullshit

and that is the point.  It is ridiculous to believe he didn't know where Wright stood on these topics.

by TeresaInPa 2008-04-29 03:01PM | 0 recs
I'm not buying it either

but then again I haven't bought many of the Axelrod Words that Obama has been slinging for the last year.

by NewHampster 2008-04-29 11:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Rev. Wright is right.  Obama will say and do anything to keep the poll up.

by JoeySky18 2008-04-29 11:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

I get it.
He should denounce his pastor because he's evil and racist.
He didn't do enough, he needs to throw him under the bus.
Now that he threw him under the bus, he's a hypocrite because he said he thought Wright was a good pastor.

If you haven't figured it out yet, EVERYTHING Obama does dooms him GE chances. Why? Because if something really did doom him, then maybe Clinton would have a shot. Until then, Clinton supporters jump on everything. I think I could this as the 5th time Obama has been doomed. If Obama is so doomed, why can't Clinton close the deal.

And enough of this "story has legs" shit. Everything has legs, you are its legs. You will prop it up even if no one else will because you want to see him lose.

Fact is, the American people have never cared much about Wright, and never will. This whole story has to do with Obama trying to end this shit so the media will start focusing on real things.

by BlueGAinDC 2008-04-29 11:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

"Everything has legs, you are its legs."

I like this quote.

by jaiwithani 2008-04-29 11:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Obama gave it legs by exercising poor judgement and being there in the first place.

by owl06 2008-04-29 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

But did Obama's poor judgement get 4000 American soldiers killed?
This is such a nonsense issue. Did Wright kill anyone? Did he molest any children? Did he steal money? Was he caught with a prostitute? NO. So what's the big deal? What Wright says only offends ignorant white voters and hillary supporters. And Hillary already has the ignorant vote all wraped up, so what's the problem?
Answer their isn't one. You all just want to hate on someone an d your target is Obama.

Stop the Hate, OBAMA 08'

by venician 2008-04-29 12:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

"What Wright says only offends ignorant white voters and hillary supporters."  I'll be sure to advise the  African Americans I know who are offended by Wright about this.  They'll appreciate the knowledge, I'm sure.

by Thirsty Gator 2008-04-29 12:43PM | 0 recs
So all Obama warts Hillary's fault?

Obama can have warts. But be warned: said warts exist only for Hillary's benefit.

by catfish1 2008-04-29 12:39PM | 0 recs
Re: So all Obama warts Hillary's fault?

It's not Hillary's fault; nor is he a saint, but his warts are smaller and less numerous than Clinton's.  So far, the only thing people are able to throw at him is that other people around him are bad.  Is that going to sink him? I don't think so.

by nklein 2008-04-29 01:11PM | 0 recs
She can have more flaws AND more strengths

than him.

by catfish1 2008-04-29 03:57PM | 0 recs
On that we can agree...

She can have more strengths.  I don't believe so, but I could be wrong.  But that is not what this discussion is concerning.  There has been a tirade by Clinton supporters that we cannot go with Obama b/c he's unelectable.  That's not the case and when people try to say that we should overturn the popular vote leader and the delegate leader b/c of some warts I will consistently bring up that she is far more spotted.

by nklein 2008-04-29 04:59PM | 0 recs
I hate the electability argument

I just prefer Hillary as president.

by catfish1 2008-04-29 06:46PM | 0 recs
That is a silly comment

Obama has led on issues.  On the issue of healthcare in Illinois, on the issue of of nuclear and coventional disarmament in U.S. Senate and on the issue of ethics in both Illinois and the U.S. Senate.

The silliness though of this comment is that I've seen you and many others disparage Obama's healthcare plan and so on.  So how do you castigate him for plans that he's developed, but say that he's a follower and has no plans?

by nklein 2008-04-29 05:08PM | 0 recs
The factual errors in

this screed are miond-boggling.

by UrbanRedneck 2008-04-29 11:28AM | 0 recs
Re: The factual errors in

What sort of idiots give a post like this mojo?

Answer:  rb608, toyomama, map

Frankly, I think it's an abuse of the board.  The post is a troll, and the people who mojo-rated it are making trolls of themselves.  It's so... juvenile.

Note that I haven't troll-rated it, even though I think it's a worthless post.  That's a sanction I rarely use, but I do think we have quite a few trolls here.  If you have nothing of substance to say, then shut up.  Any rational person reading what you wrote will only think less of your cause.

And save your mojo ratings for things that really add to the discourse.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 12:35PM | 0 recs
Re: The factual errors in
From the diary:
sermons that Senator Obama undoubtedly heard
It is undoubtable that Obama heard sermons in his years in the church.  It is factually inaccurate to assert that Obama undoubtedly heard the sermons at the heart of the controversy as that statement clearly implies.
by rb608 2008-04-29 12:47PM | 0 recs
Re: The factual errors in

That wouldn't, even if correct, make the original diary statement factually correct.  

by rb608 2008-04-29 04:41PM | 0 recs
And have a TR

for calling me an idiot.  And fuck you.

by rb608 2008-04-29 12:50PM | 0 recs
Re: And have a TR

I'm just waiting for some of your friends to give your "f u" post a mojo rating.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 01:05PM | 0 recs
Re: The factual errors in

Was merely pointing out seems to have skimped a bit on research.  For example, Obama was not responding to remarks his former pastor made from the "pulpit", but rather the reverend's performance at the Nat' Press Club event Monday night.

As for the rest of your comment, well, it speaks volumes for itself as to your level of maturity.

by UrbanRedneck 2008-04-29 12:51PM | 0 recs
Re: The factual errors in

They're the same remarks.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 01:06PM | 0 recs
No,

they are not.  Some of them were and Obama responded as he has since the GD America et. al. clips hit the news - he  doesn't agree, Wright does not speak for me etc..

But what really set Obama off was Wright's apparent placement of his agenda ahead of what Obama is trying to do with his campaign and the direction he is  trying to get our lead footed nation to move in.  

Obama was also angry because Wright suggested that Obama was a typical politician who postures and says what folks want to hear - you may agree with that assessment and that is your right - but, in essence they are very different remarks.

by UrbanRedneck 2008-04-29 01:18PM | 0 recs
Re: No,

1.  I think generally that Obama probably does not personally agree with most of Wright's hate-filled rhetoric.

2.  I think you are at least partly correct that what set Obama off yesterday was "Wright's apparent placement of his agenda ahead of" Obama's.

Where you and I evidently differ is that:

  1.  I think that what Wright said in his speech at the NPC was pretty much the same as what he's said in some of his sermons (although he went farther and also added the charge that anyone who objects is an enemy of the black church, a disgustingly self-serving claim), and
  2.  I think that both Wright's sermons and his speech at the NPC amount to the preaching of hate, and
  3.  I think Obama's failure to object to it earlier disqualifies him for the Presidency.
  4.  I think Obama is a typical politician who postures and says what folks want to hear.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 01:41PM | 0 recs
Re: No,

I partially agree with #1 as Wright did reinterate some of his pulpit points (though I don't recall hearing of him having praised Farrakhan from the pulpit).

With you on #2 though I wouldn't call it "hate speech" in the legal sense, it is certain hate-filled and hate-fueled.

On #3 I think Obama's speech on race was an objection to the remarks, albeit perhaps too nuanced and well-delivered to have the same sort of impact that his comments today may have.  I also do not believe he has disqualified himself. And, we have the right to disagree on that count - DISCLOSURE - I will vote for Hillary in the GE if she becomes the nominee.

On #4 That is your right to, I believe differently.

by UrbanRedneck 2008-04-29 01:56PM | 0 recs
Re: No,

Fair enough...

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 01:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Let's see the timeline:

(1) Wright preaches anti-American hate from his pulpit for 20 years: OBAMA MAKES WRIGHT HIS SPIRITUAL ADVISOR

(2) Tapes of Wright's comments surface: OBAMA CRITICIZES WRIGHT BUT REFUSES TO DENOUNCE HIM

(3) Wright makes similar types of outrageous comments to nationally publicized audiences: OBAMA DENOUNCES WRIGHT

Note that Wright is saying the exact same things he's been saying for years.  Obama's change of behavior has absolutely nothing to do with moral rejection of Wright's message.  It is simply that, the more that message gets out, and thus threatens Obama's campaign, the more Obama feels suddenly moved to denounce the messege and the messenger.

by markjay 2008-04-29 11:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Five sermons appear on youtube... Hundreds of Hillary bloggers decide that this means that Wright has been preaching "anti-American hate from his pulpit for 20 years."

That's called making shit up.

by BlueGAinDC 2008-04-29 11:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

you don't think that there are MANY more that never made it to youtube? did the reverend suddenly come to realize what his views were on just those 5 occasions? Give me a break.

by owl06 2008-04-29 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

No, I think there were probably a few more, but not many. He is a reverend, not a politician. He gave thousands of other sermons, most likely had nothing to do with politics at all.

You are essentially blaming Obama for something that might have happened, with absolutely no evidence that it did. It is more than likely that he was not in attendance when any of those sermons were given. But of course, you don't need facts to back you up. You want this to be the truth, because it helps your argument.

by BlueGAinDC 2008-04-29 11:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Obama associated with this man, and failed to end that association knowing full well that it could be an issue in the election. What else do you need to know?

by owl06 2008-04-29 11:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

And Hillary Clinton associated with the Tan family (Read pirates of Taipan) who have donated thousands of dollars to her senate and presidential campaign.  This Tan family and their sweatshops hurt Women and poor people (horrible work condintions, abuse) inside the US (Mariana Islands and Guam are US territories), as well as destroy the textile industry on the mainland causing thousands of jobs lost.

Lets see whose associations are worse shall we?

If Clinton gets the nomination we will hear all about this as it sinks her campaign.  We will also hear all about a number of other problematic associations.

So cut the bull, stop promoting this story and try to stay positive on the issues of the campaign.

Seriosly, you people take too much glee in destroying a Democrat.  I wonder how you will feel as McBush gets rid of R V Wade, sends us into war with Iran, as the Economy tanks and we lose millions of jobs.

What consolation will this all be to you, that Obama's pastor said bad things on a handful of occasions?

Enjoy your tyranny, for you are helping it to come about.

by Why Not 2008-04-29 12:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Seriosly, you people take too much glee in destroying a Democrat.  I wonder how you will feel as McBush gets rid of R V Wade, sends us into war with Iran, as the Economy tanks and we lose millions of jobs.
While many of the rational are worthy of respect, too many here have the clear aim of just what you suggest.

by rb608 2008-04-29 12:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

I don't doubt that there were many, but it would be enough if there were only one.  It's perfectly clear that Obama had no problem with the preaching of hate whenever he first heard of it, because he waited far too long to condemn it.  And that, alone, disqualifies him for the Presidency.  Such a person cannot lead our nation out of darkness.  He doesn't know his own way out.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 12:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

The problem, IMO, is that Obama has always known that Wright's controversial remarks were out there, but he decided to run for president anyway.  Sure, he can do that, but he should not pretend to be surprised that some people are going to hold the Wright thing against him.  Personally, I am pissed off that Obama has been wasting the Democrats' chance for the presidency.  He should have known that his background was going to cause trouble.  He should have stayed out of the race until he was (tired old phrase) fully vetted.

It's not fair, no.  BUT.

I am an atheist and for that reason alone I could never be elected president.   I.e., it's not fair, yet I'm not entitled to become president, and neither is Obama.

by Montague 2008-04-29 07:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Are you serious? Step back for a second and ask yourself whether this stupid Wright thing is really big enough to say that none of his 8,000 congregants should be a candidate? Besides the fact that I think you lack any understanding of what it means to be a member of a church community and how so often it has nothing to do with who the preacher is (as a Methodist they rotate ministers and sometimes you get stuck with a bad one for years, no one leaves, even if their politics are way off from yours) but I'll go with you on your premise and compare. I'll tell you it's nowhere near the laundry list of foreign associations the Clintons' have made for nothing more than cold hard cash. Those are much more relevant to the question of their purity and qualifications for elective office.

This thing is a joke. Besides saying the crazy AIDS invented by government thing way back in the 80s most of what Wright has said was offensive and controversial but not what it has been made into. Most of the clips just capture random cuttings of the screaming black man in the dashiki (that's really the point ain't it?) Anyway, in most of those cases it was an issue of wording. Like the fact that he would say God--- America. I have no doubt, that minus that line you could hear any number of politicians saying what he was saying there- criticizing the failings of our government. Some of you people want this to be the end for Obama so badly that you're not even able to put this in a remotely realistic perspective.

So yeah, big deal, Obama's pastor is a narcissistic and complicated man who has blown up after being pounded in the national media. Show some restraint.

by brimur 2008-04-29 08:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Please, dude.  I totally agree that his craziest remark by far is saying AIDS was invented by the government.  It's not about whether Wright is crazy, or whether Obama is responsible for Wright's comments.  In fact, Obama is not responsible for Wright's comments, but he is responsible for the company he has chosen.  Aren't we all.

Can any of Wright's 8000 congregants be a presidential candidate?  Probably not.  (Let's not forget, however, that not all of them have called him their mentor, had him marry them, or had him baptize their children.)  Can any Mormon win?  Probably not yet.  Can an atheist win?  Fuck, no.

My point is not, please note, that there is anything wrong with TUCC, or even with Wright.  My point is not that a person of ANY religion or NO religion should not be able to run for president and win.  My point is about reality, not fairness.  "Should" is about fairness.  "Will" is about reality.  Obama's association with Wright SHOULD not make him lose the GE, but it WILL.   I am being horrifically realistic.

P.S.  Obama is more nascissistic than Wright.

P.P.S.  How badly do YOU want Clinton to lose?

by Montague 2008-04-29 09:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

The truth is that Obama is 95% sure to be the nominee so hypothetical drawings of which strengths we want and which weaknesses we don't want are all but irrelevant.

by brimur 2008-04-30 01:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

You could probably find a dozen comments in the New Testament that, if tape looped, would make Jesus Christ himself look like a lunatic.  Why can't you understand that a handful of tape loops do not define the man or the totality of his message?  Give me a break.

by rb608 2008-04-29 12:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

um - so HRC bloggers decided it was anti-american?  hate?  not for me to say.

but hey - psst - im canadian and over here - many people i know and media think it was anti-american rhetoric.  but nice try on hanging this on HRC.

by canadian gal 2008-04-29 11:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

I wasn't saying anything about whether or not those speeches were anti-american. I was saying that they see 5 sermons and automatic make the case that Wright had been doing this non-stop for 20 years. There is no evidence of this whatsoever.

by BlueGAinDC 2008-04-29 11:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

you are judged by your words - as BO has said - words matter.  that being said - wright reiterated his positions yesterday when asked.

by canadian gal 2008-04-29 11:50AM | 0 recs
Yes, "your words"...

not somebody else's.

by nklein 2008-04-29 01:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, "your words"...

correct - did you read the first comment in question - "ive sermons appear on youtube... Hundreds of Hillary bloggers decide that this means that Wright has been preaching "anti-American hate from his pulpit for 20 years."

That's called making shit up."

we are talking about wrights words.

by canadian gal 2008-04-29 03:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, "your words"...

First, on Wright: no religious figure dominates his/her pulpit with politics.  You guys keep on saying that this guy is spreading hate, racism and anti-Americanism for the 40 years of his ministry.  This is just not logical.  You do not grow a church from 87 American members to 8000 American members (of all races) by using hate, racism and anti-Americanism.  You don't become a mainstay in a major American city by preaching hate (at least not anymore: Father Coughlin).

Many of the soundbytes that have been repeated are inexcusable (since both you and I are not responsible for HIV/AIDS), but they are indeed out of context.  When you hear the entire sermons, there is no hatred or racism in them, b/c he is saying to love each other and to not do violence.  In fact, Wright's biggest condemnation is for the U.S. government which he (as Dr. King) sees as the "greatest purveyor of violence in the world."  The 9/11 speech where Wright disgustingly associates our government's policies with the terrorists was actually taken from a Psalm (I believe it was Psalm 137).  It was basically a message for NOT taking revenge.

Wright has demonstrated himself to be a radical in politics and egomaniac yesterday.  And his unfair denunciations against the U.S. and the government should be condemned (as Obama did in Feb.).  This does not mean you reduce 40 years of someone's life and work to a 30-second recording of radical and ridiculous statements.  I'm sure that you could do the same to me or you or anyone (although I've never cast so wide a net and been so extreme in my condemnation, but I'm young yet).

Second, this diary is all about guilt by association.  In fact, this entire issue of Wright, Ayers and various others of these controversies is about guilt by association.  Guilt by association is silly.  I know a lot of people, but I would not put on them my beliefs.  I worked for CA Secretary of State Debra Bowen and I'm a huge advocate for the legalization of marijuana (a more radical position) does that mean Secretary Bowen is radical?  Or is it fair to say that she believe in legalization of marijuana?  Should we question her judgement, b/c she employed me?  My point is that we are supposed to judge people on their deeds and not on someone else's.  This is why I do not understand this controversy.  B/c if you really want to do this, we can play this game.  I can bring up some sleazy characters that Clinton and Obama and McCain and definitely Bush are associated with; does this mean that they are sleazy?  Well, Bush is and McCain might be, but Clinton and Obama are not.

by nklein 2008-04-29 04:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, "your words"...

you are preaching to the choir my friend.  if you look through the comment history - the original poster said:

Five sermons appear on youtube... Hundreds of Hillary bloggers decide that this means that Wright has been preaching "anti-American hate from his pulpit for 20 years."

That's called making shit up."

to which i responded: "um - so HRC bloggers decided it was anti-american?  hate?  not for me to say.

but hey - psst - im canadian and over here - many people i know and media think it was anti-american rhetoric.  but nice try on hanging this on HRC."

commenter responded:  "I wasn't saying anything about whether or not those speeches were anti-american. I was saying that they see 5 sermons and automatic make the case that Wright had been doing this non-stop for 20 years. There is no evidence of this whatsoever"

me:  you are judged by your words - as BO has said - words matter.  that being said - wright reiterated his positions yesterday when asked.

this is about wright.  but to address one point you make -  "I can bring up some sleazy characters that Clinton and Obama and McCain and definitely Bush are associated with; does this mean that they are sleazy?"  this is true - but it is not the same and you know it - BO named his book after one of his sermons for goodness sake - in any case - wrights words are his own - but that does not change the fact that just as he divorced a man today that a few weeks ago - he said he could not no longer divorce wright than my own grandmother.  right or wrong - he painted himself and wright together.

by canadian gal 2008-04-29 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, "your words"...

It's not like there is a not a long-term relationship between Hillary Clinton and someone who is pretty sleazy.  I agree that Obama tied himself to Wright in the public's mind a couple weeks back.  But, of course, at that time he denounced the offensive statements.  Moreover, Obama has now divorced himself from Wright and I think that Wright's display on Monday is so divergent from Obama that people won't continue to see that association.  I may be wrong there.

My big beef though is this guilt by association.  I really find this tactic sad and destructive for both parties.  We should be judged by our own actions and not anyone else's.  I'm glad that you agree with that sentiment and I'm sorry if I entered into a conversation in midstream and did not understand the context.

by nklein 2008-04-29 05:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

I assume you're willing to provide an alternative candidate who never makes political calculations or goes back on their previous statements and/or promises?

by Lost Thought 2008-04-29 11:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

as a HRC supporter i have never been comfortable with the wright issue - it seemed strange to hand wrights word on BO (although the connection between the two is greater than most between one and their religious leader).

that being said - BO opened this door when he stated in his speech in PA that he could no more divorce wright than his grandmother.  this is where, IMO he made a fatal mistake.  voters now, rightly or wrongly equate these two men together.  so by disowning him now - its seems political and self-serving (as it is).  but hey - thats politics.

by canadian gal 2008-04-29 11:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

I don't think so.  Obama's assertion that we all have a relative whose ideas and comments we don't endorse rings true with many people.  We (and I mean all of us we) know that we can be friends, relatives, and parishoners with people who do not share our every belief and priority.  That does not make us responsible for the attitudes of everyone with whom we share a close bond.  I have close friends who are conservative, some who are gay, some who are black; but that doesn't make me a gay, African-American wingnut.

by rb608 2008-04-29 12:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

again - the comment said - "ive sermons appear on youtube... Hundreds of Hillary bloggers decide that this means that Wright has been preaching "anti-American hate from his pulpit for 20 years."

That's called making shit up."

we are talking about wright - not BO.

by canadian gal 2008-04-29 03:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

sorry - wrong thread - you are not your friends that is true - but politics and the joke that is the media hold v. simple ideas and push, push, push them down our throats.  the narrative is set, HRC is cold, cunning and deceitful.  BO is likable,  progressive and inspiring.  none of those are memes are true to me, but thats how it works - BO is tied to this man after he said those words in PA about 'i could no longer divorce him than my grandmother...'  rightly or wrongly - he painted himself into a corner.

by canadian gal 2008-04-29 03:54PM | 0 recs
Sounds like he is taking instruction

from all the pundits that were blathering on MSNBC and CNN yesterday.  Neverless, I think he is boxing himself into a corner. As instructed,
he expressed "outrage" at Wright so as to distance himself from him, but in the process, he is highlighted his lack of judgment, in that he seems surprised that Wright had shown "little regard for me" and seemed more concerned with "taking center stage," and that he was not
the same man he met 20 years ago.

#1 - The statements Wright made that were captured on videotape were made since 9/11/01, and he has had previous opponrtunities to respond, so it is surprising this is a shock to him.  There was nothing new in the remarks of the past few days since they were just more of the same.

#2 - The man was a "mentor", "like an old uncle." If his judgment is so poor as to someone he "knew" what good is it going to be when he is
playing on the world stage?

#3 - Why did he need to wait to hear what the pundits said before he expressed outrage? If the outrage was real, it should have and would have been expressed immediately. Sounds like political expediency to me, and not real emotion, and I suspect that is how the voters in Indiana et al are going to see it, no matter what Obama says now.

Great Diary!  Thanks.

by cjbardy 2008-04-29 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Sounds like he is taking instruction

And we have another candidate whose judgment is so poor that she couldn't do her homework before voting for a pre-emptive war.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-29 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Sounds like he is taking instruction

Not on point, but for the umpteenth time "SHE DIDN"T VOTE FOR A PRE-EMPTIVE WAR!!!!!!

by cjbardy 2008-04-29 09:57PM | 0 recs
The last thing we need

is a President with his own "stalker" like Wright.  The Rev. said he'd come knocking at Obama's door on November 5th, if he wins.  Yah, like that's something we really want.  Looks like Obama has his own "Fatal Attraction" character hot on his heels.  

by izarradar 2008-04-29 11:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Thanks for posting this, Owl. Wasn't it over a year ago that Obama and Wright had a little conversation about all this? Obama admitted then that he might have to distance himself from his pastor at some point. That means he knew full well that what Wright represents is way over the banks of mainstream America.

All of this stuff about his racist pastor, Rev. Wright, his communist domestic terrorist,  William Ayers, and corrupt Chicago fixer, Tony Rezko, all point to major flaws in Obama's character and judgement that voters are just not going to forget. Obama is toast, politically. Stick a fork in him, he's done!

No Democratic politician in their right mind would hand this man the nomination because it would lead to a guaranteed defeat in November.

I just donated more $$ to Hillary today! Please join me!

by Nobama 2008-04-29 11:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

"Guaranteed defeat"?  It's doom and gloom Dems like you that make us look like cowards.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

wow!...such hatred

by feliks 2008-04-29 11:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

yeah seriously.. why did obama sit in his church for 20 years?

by owl06 2008-04-29 11:44AM | 0 recs
That sentence says it all.

You are merely angry because he is raining on your parade.

Wright has apparently claimed that the government created AIDS for genocide against black people for years.

Wright has apparently extoled the virtues of Farrakhan (sp?) for years.

It wasn't until it became a distraction for the Obama campaign, after Obama asked him to keep his views on the down low and go on vacation until after November, 2008, and after Wright refused Obama's pleas and continued to spread his same old crap about AIDS and Farrakhan over the last few days, that Obama got upset.

by PJ Jefferson 2008-04-29 11:43AM | 0 recs
Re: That sentence says it all.

ding ding ding! you win the golden ring!

by owl06 2008-04-29 11:44AM | 0 recs
I like Farrakan,respect him but dont agree always

For your information just because paraniod white people and Jewish people see fit to DEMONIZE Farrakan us black people actually like him. I am sorry you dont let us say what we want on your TV NETWORKS without firing us from our jobs if they dont JIVE with your CULTURE. So sorry Mr. White Man we have offended your sensabilities, perhaps us Negros will just go back to the shadows where we belong.........

See you in NOVEMBER

by edtastic 2008-04-29 09:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Wright Is More Right -

Than wrong.

Read Randy Shilts "And the Band Played On" -
The AIDS epidemic was ignored by the goverment because it only affected "faggots, niggers. and junkies".  Perhaps Wright is a little more conspiratorial, but I doubt that a disease impacting white, upper-middle-class males of Anglo origins would be so ignored.  Just look at the E.D. ads on television.

And I think it would behoove Americans to consider why people might become suicide bombers - including flying planes into the World Trade Center - other than saying, "Those Muslims are just crazy."  Is there a connection between U.S. actions in the past 50 years in the Middle East and the attitudes of young Muslim radicals vis a vis the United States?  Or are they just "taught" to hate us?

And the recent exoneration of the NYPD cops who shot Sean Bell sends the same message to many African Americans that has been sent over and over again - that you are less than American.   Good Gawd, the United States apologized for incarcerating Japanese Americans in WWII (rightfully so), but cannot apologize for 400 years of slavery and Jim Crow.

Mainsteam America says, "Get over it!"  
To which  Wright responds, "Fuck you!"

by johnnygunn 2008-04-29 11:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Wright Is More Right -

Those are all important issues (In fact, I have friends with HIV), but the Reverend did not put it was eloquently as you did.

He angrily propagated conspiracy theories and preached hatred of America instead of tackling those issues.

Anything else is a stretch, and BTW all of those issues have gotten a lot of play in the press. Is the air thin up there?

by owl06 2008-04-29 11:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Wright Is More Right -

You know, I don't have all that much issue with Wright's comments.  Some of them are eminently reasonable.  A few are kind of crazy, but most are not.  Free speech and all that... he can say what he wants.

The problem is that Obama has called Wright his mentor, and Obama wants to be president.  It doesn't work that way.  Not everybody can be president.  There are certain things that have to be true before you can expect to win an election for the American presidency, and Obama is foolish if he thinks it will be different for him.

by Montague 2008-04-29 07:56PM | 0 recs
Haha

Glad to see you couldn't resist a "throw under the bus" reference.

I declare this diary a bus wreck!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P94rcZSuT T8

Here's a busdriver for ya:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWLTgFzon Wo

Here's my hope for the future:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceDClzaWG RE

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 11:53AM | 0 recs
Obama's chickens...

...are coming home to roost.

telegraph

by Nobama 2008-04-29 11:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's chickens...

Make sure to get a "throw under the bus" reference in there.

The Wright obsessed commenters sadden me.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's chickens...

Then why don't you write your own diary? You haven't contributed any to this site yet.

by owl06 2008-04-29 12:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's chickens...

If this is contributing, I'd rather not contribute.

by Why Not 2008-04-29 12:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's chickens...

then leave.

by owl06 2008-04-29 12:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's chickens...

You will not feel this way about "participating" when the otehr shoe drops on Clinton.  Perhaps you should leave until you have something constructive to add to the argument.

by Why Not 2008-04-30 08:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama's chickens...

Not very substantive, but absolutely hilarious.  Thanks, Nobama, I needed that!

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 01:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Then why don't you write your own diary? You haven't contributed any to this site yet.

by owl06 2008-04-29 12:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

I have yet to write a diary, too. No confidence.

by Nobama 2008-04-29 12:06PM | 0 recs
He's shocked, SHOCKED

by DaveOinSF 2008-04-29 12:03PM | 0 recs
Re: He's shocked, SHOCKED

Obama is really in trouble when people start making jokes about him.  First the chicken picture, and now this. When anger turns to laughter, the candidate's in big trouble.

by PlainWords 2008-04-29 01:23PM | 0 recs
Obama's theme song

Link opens iTunes:

http://tinyurl.com/5ark2g

by Nobama 2008-04-29 12:03PM | 0 recs
You are being played

Every time you perpetuate this manufactured nonsense, you are being played by the right wing like a Stradivarius. What Wright said, didn't say, meant or didn't mean has absolutely no effect on the issues we should be outraged about - Torture, the politicizing of the DOJ, Iraq, war profiteering, Blackwater, voter suppression, mortgage crisis, devaluation of the dollar, the gutting of the EPA, Katrina, NOLA, food shortages, the ongoing rape of the constitution, the "patriot" act... all issues of grave importance that are not discussed every time people allow themselves to be distracted by this or what the weather was in Tuzla 10 years ago. For the love of God, please just let it die.

by awobbly 2008-04-29 12:17PM | 0 recs
Fuck yea

As soon as Wright runs for public office, this stuff will be relevant.

UNTIL THEN, let's judge Obama by the content of HIS OWN CHARACTER and his policy views.  Let's talk about healthcare, the mortgage crisis, fixing the power of the U.S. dollar, Katrina, global warming, etc. etc. etc.

I know a lot of Clinton supporters want to take down Obama, but how about trying to take him down on substance?

by Slim Tyranny 2008-04-29 12:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Fuck yea

Totally agree.  We should be focusing on Bosnia since the BO campaign seems to spend so much time talking about it.

david

by giusd 2008-04-29 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Fuck yea

But we are judging Obama on the content of his character.  He calls this man his mentor, then turns on him for political expediency.  

by Montague 2008-04-29 07:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

9/11,9/11,9/11, 9/11!!! Al Qaeda, Terrorists, 9/11, War on Terror, Terrorists, 9/11,9/11,9/11!!!

by Forward with Feingold 2008-04-29 12:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

But it's not about the Reverend: It's about Obama's poor political judgement. And indeed, the chickens HAVE come home to roost.

All so very true.

by Pagan Power 2008-04-29 12:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

What is it that Wright said this weekend to provoke such condemnation from Obama? It doesn't even matter if Obama never heard these things in church -- he certainly heard them a month ago prior to his "historic" speech in which he told us that he couldn't disown Wright. What was new this weekend that changed Obama's tune? All that Wright did was reiterate the same controversial views.

by ryeland 2008-04-29 12:50PM | 0 recs
Exactly - Obama did not articulate that well

What changed, Obama?

by catfish1 2008-04-29 12:52PM | 0 recs
Obama is still maturing

not just as a candidate, but as an adult. He couldn't clearly articulate why Wright's comments offended him, other than they were insensitive to Obama's campaign. That was a very narcissistic thing to say.

What about Wright's comments undermining people's trust in government? It's OK not to trust government, but to perpetuate lies and a sense of helplessness among the black community, which Wright claims to be the spokesperson of "you offended the black church", that undermines the aspirations of your own followers.

by catfish1 2008-04-29 12:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is still maturing

Still Maturing as an adult and candidate???

Good Lord, I won't need a "kid"maturing into a job, we need an ADULT!!!  Thank God Hillary is here.  An adult to take care of business.

Hillary '08-  You know it's right.

by stefystef 2008-04-29 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is still maturing

But Obama is WRIGHT on day one!

by owl06 2008-04-29 02:04PM | 0 recs
Maybe that's why young voters like him

he's learning about politics alongside them.

by catfish1 2008-04-29 02:06PM | 0 recs
What's amazing about Obama

is his body language exudes intelligence, thoughtfullness, compassion.

But reading the text of what he says it really jumps out - he's not especially intelligent or compassionate.

He's not even especially thoughtful, except on the stump or in debates, where he appears to be thinking out these questions for the first time.

by catfish1 2008-04-29 12:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Atleast Obama is person enough to say he was wrong on Wright...Still waiting on the apology from Clinton on the Iraq War Vote..

crickets

by hootie4170 2008-04-29 12:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama
Hillary said it in the last debate.  If you were listening.
Perhaps too many crickets in your head...
by stefystef 2008-04-29 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

No she didn't she apologized for lying about Bosnia, no apology for her vote on the Iraq War.

by hootie4170 2008-04-29 03:05PM | 0 recs
Double Speak

Obama went from "I could no longer disown him than I could my own mother" to this repudiation? Was the "Spectacle" that we saw yesterday so much worst than the previous comments?

Again, if Obama thinks that what he said yesterday was worthy of such a harsh reaction then the question is, why wasn't such a strong action forthcoming after the damn America comments, the "KKKUSA" Comments and the Bill riding blacks like Lewinsky comments? Was he less offended by those?

by Wiseprince 2008-04-29 12:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Obama is more worried this time around because JW told the world that Obama was just being  political just to get elected--JW went on to say on Monday that he and Obama had earlier jointly agreed that Obama may well have to distance himself from JW at some point in order to get elected

THAT has alarmed Obama (hand in cookie jar stuff)--together with his shrinking NC lead, which had at one time been insurmountable. Losing the Mo-Mo will do that to you.

If JW now lets Obama have the last word here and does not respond to journalists pestering him about Barack's thumbs down speech today, it's possible that by May6 Obama's lead in NC might grow again--

by ionsys 2008-04-29 01:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

How religious can you be if you can disown your spiritual leader? Just sayin....

It's been on my mind a lot since this all went down, and now with Obama's comments today, I continue to lose faith in his faith.

It's tough when you're a politician, running for president. But man, you gotta be in the trenches for God. And most of what Wright talks about sounds like the truth to me, minus the whole aids thing, though I wouldn't be surprised. It was in V for Vendetta.

by The Best Blogger 2008-04-29 01:25PM | 0 recs
Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

if this is what they are hanging their hat on.  If this doesn't work, you will go to place D:  Call him a n%$#ger.  Sick.

by SovSov 2008-04-29 01:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

uncalled for.

by owl06 2008-04-29 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

The sad thing is this is what we are going to see more of.  As the BO campaign continues to struggle his supporters will continue to suggest HRC is either a racist or is running a racist campaign.  We saw this after NH, supper Tuesday and after PA.  Funny how far the BO campaign has come.

david

by giusd 2008-04-29 02:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

are you bringing the soda to the klan rally tonight, or should I? /snark

by owl06 2008-04-29 02:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

I think Dr. Pepper is the soda of choice of the KKK.  /

david

by giusd 2008-04-29 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

diet dr. pepper with vanilla is tasty.

by owl06 2008-04-29 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

Then stop promoting race baiting and ripping this party apart.  Obama has repeated his call for unity, win or lose.  Look at the stuff this site promotes.  It is sad beyond belief that democrats would hire Penn and then act like Rove.  If this is a crowning moment you should feel little more than shame!  Uncalled for?  This is uncalled for.  I can see Hillary now "shame on you Obama!"  "McCain is better than Obama!"  Sick and so is your censoring.  Fear my words?  Shocking.

by SovSov 2008-04-29 02:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

this has nothing to do with race. you are the one making it a racial issue. Keep going - see where it gets you.

by owl06 2008-04-29 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

Hillary's biggest surrogate - Ed Rendell, reminded us that they were well aware voters weren't ready, in his state, to vote for a Black man.  Can Bill mention race any more than he has?  If you guys think race isn't an issue you are high.  Has there been one issue, one, which Hillary has not thought to exploit.  And it wasn't a Black man who kicked off roosters coming home to roost.  It was only highlighted when a Black minister, supporting Hillary's Black rival, said it.  

by SovSov 2008-04-29 02:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

Kokoras Kokkinistos: Reddened Rooster Stew with Potatoes

In Greek: κόκορα` 2; κοκκιν_ 3;στός, pronounced KOH-koh-rahs koh-kee-nee-STOHS

In this recipe, the meat is browned (or "reddened" in Greek) before stewing. The classic combination of cloves and cinnamon give this a unique Greek flavor.
INGREDIENTS:

   * 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 pound rooster, cut in pieces
    * 1 cup of olive oil
    * 2 teaspoons of salt
    * 1/2 teaspoon of pepper
    * 1/2 cup of red wine
    * 1/2 cup of chopped tomatoes
    * 1/2 tablespoon of tomato paste
    * 5-6 cloves of garlic, minced
    * 2 medium onions, minced
    * 10-12 pearl onions, whole
    * 2 1/4 pounds of potatoes, peeled, cut in large chunks
    * 2-3 whole cloves
    * 1 bay leaf
    * 1 small stick of cinnamon
    * 8-10 cups of water

PREPARATION:

In a skillet, heat the oil over high heat and brown the meat quickly. Transfer the meat to a stew pot, and in the remaining oil, sauté the pearl onions until slightly soft. Set the pearl onions aside, and in the same oil, sauté the minced garlic and onions. When the onions soften, add chopped tomatoes. Dissolve the tomato paste in the wine and add to the pan. Stir well to blend and cook at boiling for 5-7 minutes.

Add the sauce to the stew pot on top of the meat, and turn heat to high. Stir in salt, pepper, bay leaf, and cinnamon stick. Add 1 cup of the water and bring to a boil. Stir in remaining water slowly. When full boil resumes, cover, reduce heat to medium, and cook for 30 minutes. Add pearl onions, and cook for 30 minutes more. Add potatoes and cook for the final 30 minutes. Test meat for doneness.

Yield: serves 4-5

by owl06 2008-04-29 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters Are Happy...

Why? Because SUSA has Clinton within 5 points of Obama in North Carolina. She's ahead by 8 in Indiana. She's way ahead in Kentucky.

Obama looks increasingly like a loser. Downticket candidates are starting to distance themselves from him.

by Tennessean 2008-04-29 02:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters Are Happy...

Bottom line is the supers will NOT take this nomination and give it to her. They won't do it. Mark my words. (For a little proof- tell me a single day in the last two months that she picked up more supers than him.)

by brimur 2008-04-29 09:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters Are Happy...

Today, genius.

by zcflint05 2008-04-29 10:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters Are Happy...

Oh yeah today? You sure about that? By my count off of the respective websites it's 3 to 1 in favor of Obama. GENIUS!

by brimur 2008-04-30 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

"Fear my words?!"

What kind of a comment is that? Why should Clinton supporters fear your words or anything else? She's won the majority of Democratic votes. She's cut Obama's lead to 5 in NC. She's going to win in Indiana, Kentucky, West Virginia. Obama hasn't won a primary since February 22nd.

You just haven't figured it out yet. Clinton is the best candidate for the Democrats in the general election.

You will figure it out eventually. We're just trying to make sure that by the time you figure out what everyone else now knows, it won't be too late for the party to win the White House with Clinton. Because it won't happen with Obama.

by Tennessean 2008-04-29 02:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary supporters should be embarrassed

The Obama campaign has been fueling the "race-baiting" meme all along.  Call for unity, win or lose?  I haven't heard that.  I've heard "I can get all her supporters but she can't get all of mine" and similar comments.

Listen, both sides (campaigns, and also this blog) have gone overboard a number of times.  Politics is hardball.  But you are making some highly objectionable comments where they are entirely uncalled for.  If you behave reasonably, people will listen. If you call people racist simply because they support the white candidate, then you're not going to be winning any hearts and minds.

by Montague 2008-04-29 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

All the fighting and arguing will not change 'one' thing.

You can not FORCE people to ignore their feelings and vote for your candidate.

Each individual has the right to vote or to NOT for any candidate for any reason they choose.

People might not vote for Al Gore because he had crooked teeth and looks angry.

People might not vote for GW Bush because he's an idiot.

Who knows why people vote the way they do?

But I do know one thing, there are millions and millions of people in America that will not vote for Obama now and all your posts on all the internet blogs can't force them to.

Sorry...

by wblynch 2008-04-29 02:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

All the fighting and arguing will not change 'one' thing.

You can not FORCE people to ignore their feelings and vote for your candidate.

Each individual has the right to vote or to NOT for any candidate for any reason they choose.

People might not vote for Al Gore because he had crooked teeth and looks angry.

People might not vote for GW Bush because he's an idiot.

Who knows why people vote the way they do?

But I do know one thing, there are millions and millions of people in America that will not vote for Obama now and all your posts on all the internet blogs can't force them to.

Sorry...

by wblynch 2008-04-29 02:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

you posted this twice. and by the way the polls are going, fewer and fewer people would vote for obama - especially in the generally election. face it, he's toast.

by owl06 2008-04-29 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

I must admit, you guys are doing great work.  Is it too early for you to get tickets to President McCain's inauguration?  Bravo!

by mikeinsf 2008-04-29 04:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

I'm working hard for Hillary to avoid having President McCain.

by owl06 2008-04-29 06:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Yeah sorry.  Danged internet buttons never work right.

by wblynch 2008-04-29 10:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

It doesn't pass the smell test.  Not even close.  The Obama campaign is indelibly stained by the hateful rhetoric of Rev. Wright.

Obama says he's just now "outraged" by Wright's rants?  His voice didn't portray outrage one iota.  In fact, his monotonic "outrage" was as flat as his washed-out stump speech.

by Caldonia 2008-04-29 02:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

he has no second act. the TelePrompTer runneth dry.

by owl06 2008-04-29 02:31PM | 0 recs
Watch this.

Keep you minds ajar, a little open...as Obama says "saddened over the spectacle."  Others here are over joyed and refuse to let the election be about America.  Rather, you run to this mud.

by SovSov 2008-04-29 02:35PM | 0 recs
Re: If I Were a Young Black Man

I would be sitting on death row.

Because I would take out a few racist cops, racist news correspondents, and racist politicians.  God knows that white America is scared shitless of the angry black male.  And, you know what, the only way you can get elected as a black man or black woman by a majority white constituency is to do some serious ass-kissing.

I'm pissed at Obama because he's playing that same game.  That America is beyond race.  Well, if American is so far beyond race, why does Obama define himself as black when others with his background see themselves as multiracial?  If America is beyond race, why did a thousand, black people die in New Orleans?  If we are so far beyond race why are more inner-city black men incarcerated than in college?

Yeah, I disagree in almost every way with this diary.  The issue is not with what Rev. Wright said, but with the society that continues to renew institutionalized racism at every opportunity.  I wish Obama would have said to those out-of-work white people in Pennsylvania, "You know what?  What's happened to white people in rural Pennsylvania is exactly what has happened to poor black people in Detroit and St. Louis."  Instead he did the "bitterness" thing in San Francisco.

What a loser.

by johnnygunn 2008-04-29 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: If I Were a Young Black Man

What a loser yourself. This society, thanks to baby boomer liberals like myself and Bill and Hillary Clinton, have been rooting out racism wherever it is found. In addition we have provided affirmative action hiring into management positions, we have provided preferential admissions to the best colleges and universities.

Now racism rears its ugly head amongst the black culture of which Obama is a part. Who knew? I sure didn't. But ever since he started using the race card against Clinton I suspected something was basically 'wrong' with Obama in a way I couldn't exactly put my finger on. Then the information on his background with his bigoted friend and mentor, Reverend Wright, came out and it all started to make sense.

Obama does not deserve to be the president of this country. He is a liar and a con man. His relationship with Wright over a twenty year period stands as evidence that he lacks the good moral charactor we need as president. The time for him to stand up to Wright and denounce his poisonous hatred was twenty years ago. Or at least when he had a family he should have realized the harm in sending his little children to have their heads filled with such garbage.

Now it is too late for Obama but it is not to late for our nation. We must reject Obama and send an unequivical message that we do not tolerate racism and bigotry from anyone, no matter their color.

by Caliman 2008-04-29 06:15PM | 0 recs
Re: If I Were a Young Black Man
I'll mail you a mirror.
Just send me your address.
by johnnygunn 2008-04-29 06:36PM | 0 recs
Re: If I Were a Young Black Man

And how ...

I wish those spewing the kind of crap Caliman is could walk a mile in the shoes of my black brother-in-law, my black co-workers, or my mixed race niece.

Seeing the kind of shit they have to put up with makes me understand why some blacks are just a little angry and bitter. It really has opened my eyes.

Racism and sexism and their very ugly and real effects are far from dead in this country.

by ces 2008-04-29 08:01PM | 0 recs
Re: If I Were a Young Black Man

I tell you what.  I'm not afraid of anything or anyone.  Let Osama Bin Laden and his buddies show up here and I'll choke the crap out of them with my bare hands.

America is not scared.  The lazy politicians are scared.

It isn't my fault if African Americans are too lazy to go to school and learn how to speak English and become Americans.

Come over here right now and I'll kick your scared little ass.

by wblynch 2008-04-29 10:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Pull The Other Leg, Senator...

It's official - Barack Obama, however belatedly, threw his Meshugenah Minister under the bus at a press conference today. According to Obama's telling, Jeremiah Wright's appearance yesterday at the National Press Club made it clear to Obama that Wright is a crackpot, a lunatic, a nut. (The preceding are my terms, not Obama's.) So, in other words, Wright's oddness managed to elude Obama during 20 years of spiritual mentorship-- while the Obamas were sending $40,000 worth of support to Wright. But yesterday Obama had a proverbial Road to Damascus experience. At the risk of being blunt, pull the other leg, Senator - there are bells on it.

Read the whole thing:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TW SFP/2008/04/obama_discovers_wrights_unsa vo.asp

by Tennessean 2008-04-29 02:51PM | 0 recs
Really?

The Weekly Standard?

by Trond Jacobsen 2008-04-29 03:55PM | 0 recs
Sen. Obama attacked the Black Church!

When Sen. Clinton said that Rev. Wright would not have been her pastor, she was accused by the likes of Kos, Huffington, Marshall and legions of
Obama fans that a) she is playing the race card and b) she is attacking the long tradition of progressive black church.

Now that Sen. Obama has attacked Rev. Wright for saying the same things that he had said for over 20 years, may we see a bit of intellectual honesty from these people? I am guessing not, but one can hope, right.

by ann0nymous 2008-04-29 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Is there anything Obama could have said that would have made you happy?

Does he need to denounce AND reject?

by chewie5656 2008-04-29 03:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Not a thing.  He ruined Hillary's plans way back in Iowa, and for that he will never be forgiven.

by mikeinsf 2008-04-29 04:07PM | 0 recs
Here's the sad thing Chewie

No.  This is one of those political moments where the mud is so deep there is not a GD thing you can do to get out of it but pray.  

Obama is no cooking in his own words.  As a pundit said on CNN last night -- when your opponent is in the middle of committing suicide the last thing you want to do is try to murder him.  

Clinton and McCain don't have to lift a finger on this one -- even the MSM working against the story couldn't bail fast enough.  Some political moments are so damaging they can't be spun and won't go away.

I'm more than a little afraid and upset this morning about all of this and I'm a strong Clinton supporter.  Obama's stock is about to enter freefall and there isn't one GD thing he or anyone else can do to stop it.

He's got a crazy uncle who won't go away, who's torn a huge whole in his credibility and who is on the record as saying he intends to be knocking on the Whitehouse door in nine months with his kook agenda in his hand.  Aside from a smoking gun and a dead prostitute, it doesn't get any much worse than this.

Sorry.

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-04-30 03:37AM | 0 recs
The tragedy of Barack

He wants to be the new style politician with a message of hope but his record and campaign is all about Chicago politics, of innuendos, deal-making with large moneys, character assassination, smears, race-baiting and sometimes all out lying. Jeremiah Wright flap is just an extension. Obama sat in that church for 20 years and he expects people to believe that he did not know anything that his pastor was saying, so instead if renouncing or walking out he stayed there and rode high on the words of his pastor who proclaimed that the Clintons do not know what's it like to be black in America. He used his pastor to appeal to the AA voter. When the speculation of his pastor's incendiary words and views started becoming more widely known he gave a speech comparing his pastor to his dead "white grandmother" who supposedly made him cringe when she talked about race and he followed it up with releasing a picture of his pastor shaking hands of Bill Clinton...how disingenuous!! Now that he last lost 3 big states in a row and  it looks like he's becoming the next McGovern boxed within demographics and unable to win big democratic and blue-collared states he decided to break his relationship after all. His "sister souljah" moment comes twenty years too late and smacks of political expediency!!

by tarheel74 2008-04-29 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

This is not playing so well in the press.  Here's a sample from RCP:

Here's the big question, and it's one that Barack Obama simply can't answer effectively: what did Reverend Wright say yesterday that was any different from what he's said before? For Obama to be so "outraged and saddened" now, and to suggest that the man he saw yesterday was somehow different from the man we saw in the clips on YouTube simply strains credulity.

It doesn't help matters that Obama seemed significantly less outraged last night by Rev. Wright's tour de force at the National Press Club than he was today, which would lead any thinking person to conclude that today was less an expression of sincerity than one of political expediency.

by TexasDarlin 2008-04-29 04:00PM | 0 recs
I will tell you what he said different

He came after Obama pesonally, he attacked Obama by implying he was not HONEST. It was a personal attack. He did disrespect the man that put his canadicy on the line to protect him.

by edtastic 2008-04-29 09:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

This is exactly the position that Sean Hannity took tonight, and it's wrong.

Obama was "outraged and saddened" weeks ago when Wright's infamous statements first came to light. He denounced the remarks then just as strongly as he did today. His position on Wright's words hasn't changed.

What HAS changed is that for the first time, Wright insinuated that Obama agrees with his vile remarks. That's a dishonest and disrespectful thing to suggest, and I don't blame Obama for being upset.

If a friend did that to me, you can bet it would change my view of that person and I would definitely want people to know where I stand.

by jdusek 2008-04-29 10:34PM | 0 recs
Embarrassed For You

All the faux outrage just to nail Hillary's opponent.  So sad that you have to latch on an issue that a) has no bearing on the serious problems we face and b) feeds into white paranoia. On an ostensibly Democratic website, no less. Is it possible, just once, to set aside the fercocity of your adoration of Hillary and your contempt for Obama, and to just listen to yourself?

by mikeinsf 2008-04-29 04:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

OMG how wonderful Senator Obama had absolutely no facial itching...Wow what cream is he using?  

by grego101 2008-04-29 04:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

wow did you come up with that one on your own?

Corny.

by april34fff 2008-04-30 10:17AM | 0 recs
This is an irrelevancy

and shame on those of us on the left who have given it even one breath or one moment of thought.

This is only an issue because a consolidated media apparatus has decided it was one, and it has no bearing on Senator Obama's ability to do a good job as president; I think he could (could) be a transformative President.

That's on the one hand.

On the other hand, I have little pity for him, because I have a sneaking suspicion that he joined this politically powerful South Side church for political, not spiritual, reasons, so that it has come back to haunt him causes little grief.

Still--I am a supporter of Senator Obama and it doesn't behoove us to focus on it. Narrative vs. Narrative, we all fall down.

If you don't agree with the tactic, don't feed the story--because it'll hurt your candidate next.

by chicagolife 2008-04-29 04:58PM | 0 recs
Re: This is an irrelevancy

I agree with some of what you say.  But as for your final sentence, I'd say Obama is in a much better position to be damaged over ANY story than Hillary is, and the reason Hillary isn't suffering from things like the Bosnia gaffe is that she has never tried to suggest she is anything other than a politician. She's far from perfect, but I know her pretty darned well and I trust her in terms of policy.  I don't much care that she embellished the Bosnia story.

I do care that Obama pretended to be above politics, or to have some sort of "new" politics, yet now is shown to be a typical politician.  I don't feel that I know him OR can trust him.  Also, Obama well knows that running for office means it is about your narrative.  He knew what was in his background, and he should have known this would occur.

by Montague 2008-04-29 08:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Obama must drop out.

His toxicity levels are spreading through the Democratic Party. He's already managed to split the party, undo 40 years of racial healing, create a sexist and misogynist political discourse and insult the working class heart of this country.

Obama started out half baked and he's still not done. Although his political career might be.

by aroundtheblock 2008-04-29 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

What racial HEELING, they have been exploiting white fears of blacks this whole campaign. If Wright was WHITE this would not be an Issue and YOU KNOW IT. Guess who the racist are... NOT BLACK PEOPLE. I know its popular now to call BLACKS RACIST but we have not been oppressing anyone, we dont own the media, we dont control it, we dont manage it, we are just guest they CHOOSE to put on when it suites there message to portray an  image of diverstity. Give me a damn break, if we had racial heeling there would be not WRIGHT ISSUE

by edtastic 2008-04-29 09:57PM | 0 recs
You are a parody, sir.

The FRONTRUNNER must drop out, of course.

It's not the candidate with absolutely NO CHANCE of winning the nomination, clinging to this non-chance, who is splitting the party with divisive, McCain-pandering hypocrisy?

That you really believe that Barack Obama started the racism in this campaign is so ludicrous, given the uniting focus of his speeches and policies; apparently it doesn't matter to you that Hillary Clinton has dismissed every state which hasn't voted for her as 'irrelevant'.

It doesn't matter to you that polls showed Obama and Hillary as equally "In Touch" with Pennsylvania; rather you prefer to be outraged on the behalf of the working class who aren't.

Sheesh.

You're either adverse to facts.  Or you're a troll.  That is the only explanation for this.

by Mardarkin 2008-04-30 01:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama
I'm sick of this absolutist BS. Yeah, Barack made poor judgement with Wright but Hillary made poor judgement on authorizing Iraq.
Neither candidate is perfect and i'm willing and ready to support either against insane McCain.
by astronautagogo 2008-04-29 05:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

Nobody believes Obama anymore.

People are more angry than I've ever seen them be at a candidate.

Obama can't win, he can only cause Democrats to lose.

We don't believe a word he says and we hate him as much as Obama's supporters hate the Clintons, probably more.

We will never forgive Obama and his supporters for joining with the far-right and putting the shiv into the Clintons.

What Obama and his supporters did to the Clintons is disgraceful.

The legacy of Bill Clinton's Presidency is the most valuable asset the Democratic Party has.

by BerkekeyGuy 2008-04-29 05:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

The chickens have come home to roost!!

BHO democratic nomination, RIP!

by loser 2008-04-29 05:55PM | 0 recs
who f---ing cares

what rev wright says...said...or did.

since we are too stupid to even consider electing a secular humanist (or other non-christian) in this country that claims seperation of church ad state; can't we at least be smart enough to recognize the religious hypocracy in every fucking candidate that ever ran for president (nader excluded).

photo op in church.....bullshit

photo op hunting.....bullshit

photo op driving tractor...bullshit

photo op doing shots....maybe not bullshit, but all the rest of it certainly is.

by citizendave 2008-04-29 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: who f---ing cares

You're right, it IS dumb.  Still, there are some immutable facts, such as that, at this time in our history, secular humanists can't win the presidency, nor can Ralph Nader. And I'll bet Obama can't, either.

by Montague 2008-04-29 08:15PM | 0 recs
WOW

You all ought to save the bile and faux outrage for John McCain, because Barack Obama isn't the antichrist.  He can't wreck the Party or lose the presidency without your help.  He may not be your first choice, but he'll help out people who work for a living, end the war in Iraq, and appoint liberal Supreme Court justices.  Do you want to give us four more years of Bush policies and four more years of war just so you can say "I told you so?"

by CA Pol Junkie 2008-04-29 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: WOW

Obama IS NOT THE NOMINEE. PS: He did it to himself.

by owl06 2008-04-29 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: WOW

You are correct on both counts.

by Montague 2008-04-29 08:06PM | 0 recs
Re: WOW

He hasn't convinced me that he'd appoint "liberal" SC justices.  Naturally, I'd rather have his picks than John McCain's.

by Montague 2008-04-29 08:05PM | 0 recs
Re: WOW

likewise. the only reason why I could envision myself voting for obama would be the court.

by owl06 2008-04-29 08:08PM | 0 recs
Re: WOW

Let's hope it doesn't come to that.  I believe Hillary can still become our nominee.

by Montague 2008-04-29 08:16PM | 0 recs
Re: WOW

If she gets 85% of the non-add-on super delegates from here on out, that will probably get her the nomination.

by CA Pol Junkie 2008-04-29 09:19PM | 0 recs
Re: WOW

I see you are an Obama fan.

The supers want to win, and Michigan and Florida are going to get seated.  We'll see what happens.

by Montague 2008-04-29 09:24PM | 0 recs
Re: WOW

Clinton supporters can count as well as Obama supporters.  The super delegates do indeed want to win, but recent history and future indications tell us that their winning strategy and your winning strategy aren't the same.  We'll see what happens, indeed.

by CA Pol Junkie 2008-04-29 10:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

This stuff wouldn't be anywhere near as bad for Obama if he didn't have such an empty resume, and wasn't running on Hillary primarily on his better judgement whilst riding a post-racial narrative.  Now he is in a mess that it is impossible to extricate himself from:

(i) if he is not now going to disown his grandmother, then he should admit that his whole understanding of Wright in the context of his understanding of the country's racial politics was flawed;

(ii) he has admitted that his judgement wasn't up to discerning what kind of a man Wright was. To say that Wright has changed is cheap, and I doubt that anyone believes he has.

(iii) most people will believe Wright when he says that Obama's earlier dealings with him were political, not least because it is pretty clearly established that Obama pulled Wright from his declaration for political reasons. Once Obama is just another politician, the fact that he is a very inexperienced politician matters.

by Boz 2008-04-29 11:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

What amazes me is that for all the bashing of Daily Kos, the top 3 diaries right there are about:

1. Global Warming

2. John Mccain

3. Dick Cheney

This place truly is a shrill echo chamber that gives great supporters a terrible, terrible, terrible name.

by AlexScott 2008-04-30 12:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

I am just curious.  It is like you have two choices on how to view Senator Obama.

1) Someone who is apt to think the best of people, overlook some flaws to see the good in them or at least to attempt to bridge some divides and find common ground, who initially tried to do just that with Wright until Wright denied Obama's entire approach, after which he denounced him

or

2) Someone who apparently must believe as Wright does (since he isn't stupid and would have walked out otherwise), who has no moral or value-driven anger at Wright but is only angry at Wright for endangering his political life, and who has no values other than gaining power.

You obviously have chosen #2, but my question is, why?  Why do you believe this of Senator Obama in particular?

by tunesmith 2008-04-30 12:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

and... if he really were an inherently political creature, why wouldn't he be arguing in favor of the gas tax holiday?  Wouldn't the more political approach be for all three candidates to argue in favor of it so it ceases to be a political issue?  I mean, you probably agree with Jerome's front page take on the issue, right?

Or is it that you see Obama as an inherently political creature with really bad political judgment?  That seems pretty convenient, you could basically paint anything he does with that brush, in terms of having it both ways.

by tunesmith 2008-04-30 10:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Tell us another one Senator Obama

The most telling thing about this diary and most of the comments thereafter is that it shows just how deep the level of distrust and cynicism has sunk in to this community. Its not just MyDD or other liberal blogs. Its everywhere. We have been so conditioned to think the worst of our politicians that we are unable to see any other point of view. What's ironic is that Obama did see this coming, and certainly his staff did as well. But for all of his faults this man meant a lot to Obama and while he was wililng to distance himself he wasn't willing to denounce a man who brought him closer to his spirituality. It was the political expedient thing to do to throw Wright overboard as the mob screams for his head. In life, mine and yours, standing by someone you care about even when they say or do things that you disagree with is a matter of integrity. In this world, on the political blogs, and especially with liberals who so often claim to be open-mineded but rarely are all you see is a deep seeded cynicism that has been programmed in to you by the endless pandering and cynicism of politicians that have preceded OBama. Whats so frustrating is that in the cause of supporting another candidate, every piece of hopefulness and belief in common good over common bad has been destroyed. This is truly a depressing place.

by AHunch 2008-04-30 09:25AM | 0 recs
MYDD: Clift Note Version

alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc, alegre, owl06, texasdarlin, linc...

by mikeinsf 2008-04-30 10:13AM | 0 recs
Re: MYDD: Clift Note Version

AKA: http://hillarysbloggers.soapblox.net/  

by mikeinsf 2008-04-30 10:15AM | 0 recs

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