• Yep, and when they do it on the basis of race and religion, like Israel does, that makes them bigoted.  The US restricts immigration by country, not race or religion.  You're really making an ass of yourself ignoring this distinction.

    Yes, saying we won't allow in any Mexicans is so much better than saying we won't allow in any Catholics.  Ass.

  • The United States is a pluralistic country that prohibits discrimination based on ethnicity and religion.  It is majority white and Christian for historical reasons, but whites are expected to be in the minority within 50 years.

    Right.  No quotas here.  No H1-B problems.  Green card?  Step right up - that will be 15 years, give or take a decade.  And whites are expected to be in the minority in part because of the vast quantity of illegal immigration to this country and probably further amnesty efforts.  Doesn't change the fact that these people were not welcomed to our "pluralistic" country.

    You just don't get it.  Countries can control their borders and allow in whoever the hell they want.  Period.  The US has not been particularly good at this over the last 10, 20, or 50 years.  I don't see why you choose to gripe and moan about Israel.  Yes, they are a Jewish state - it's not a mystery to anyone.  And as I've said before it is perfectly acceptable for a state to be a Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or other state - it can do as it wishes.  That is what being a sovereign nation means.  And I happen to see absolutely no harm in a state of 10 million people having a policy that encourages the Jewish faith.

    No, someone isn't a naive fool who doesn't understand that Israel does not want a Palestinian state.  There will never be a two-state solution because Israel does not want one.  It pretends to so that useful idiots will continue to support its ongoing colonization and ethnic cleansing.

    Cry me a river.  Most Israelis want peace.  Most Palestinians want peace.  Therefore, peace will happen.  Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not with the Palestinians getting all of the West Bank back, but it will happen.  And then you'll have to find something else to direct all your pent up frustrations and irrational hatreds.

  • Israel is no more based on tribalism than the US is - in many cases it is probably more of a model for us than we should be to them.

    Specifically, I mean that Israel is going to have some provisions for being a Jewish state, just as the US is to some degree a Christian state.  You may not like that.  You may call that "tribal".  Whatever - tribalism IS reality.  But in most regards, Israel is probably a better state than the US - more along the lines of Canada - that should be a model for us.

    If you're now acknowledging that Israel is the same as all the other backwards religious/ethnic fiefdoms, then we agree.

    I think Israel is far ahead of most of these places.  This is, I think, beyond question.  Heard of women's rights?

    And it will be attacked by the people it ethnically cleansed and their descendants forever.  Deal with it.

    Wow.  Someone's not happy with the idea of a two state solution.  Do I see violence forever?  Nope - I'm very optimistic that Obama will be able to bring peace to I/P, which will result in a Jewish state of Israel and a Palestinian state.  So no, I won't deal with it, I will remain an optimist - but thanks for playing...

  • Either you can defend Israel's discriminatory nature on its merits or you can't.  You can't, which is why you bring in other countries.  It's an old debating trick but it doesn't work past high school.

    Actually, this is a question of significance.  Israel was designed to be a Jewish state, just as several others are designed to be Muslim states.  Is that the ideal for all countries or for a majority of people?  Probably not.  Is it ok if we have a few exceptions to the ideal for people who want to live a Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or other type of lifestyle?  I say sure.  You say no.  I cannot defend Israel as a model for the rest of the world to follow, but I think it is fine in the global context.

    It may come as a news flash to you, but the United States isn't the only country in the world.  This is "where I'm coming from with the Israel as popular as Iran talk."

    The fact that we live in the most "englightened" society on the planet, and 60% of our people approve of Israel says something to me.  That's Obama-esque numbers.

    I suggest you broaden your perspective and learn some basic logic, particularly the rule of relevance.

    I have a different world view than you and you can't handle it.  Your problem, not mine.  Israel will continue to exist as a Jewish state forever - deal with it.  You want to create a secular meritocracy?  Try focusing on a country where they seek that as the ideal like the US.  Sheesh - relevance.

  • You are the one doing the deflecting.  Israel does not exist in a vacuum.  Answer the damn question - should Muslim countries be forced to adopt a strict separation of church and state?  Should the US stop cramming Christianity or Monotheism down our throats by giving us Christian holidays as federal holidays, putting language like "In God We Trust" on our currency, forcing us to swear in on the bible, etc?  If you are going to get after Israel on this issue, I say let's get after everyone.  Israel is a tiny Jewish nation, and I say it's fine if it stays that way - that was the entire intent of Israel.

    And I don't think 60% of the American people support Iran according to the latest Gallup polls... so don't know where you are coming from with the "Israel as popular as Iran" talk.  Maybe in your inverted universe, but not the real world.

    Think I'm through with you again - I am more interested in debating the specifics of a two state solution than hearing your drivel.

  • I think you're cute too.  You troll rate everything you disagree with, even where you are objectively wrong.

  • The Gaza withdrawal would allow Israel to delay negotiations, and a Palestinian state, until such time that their leadership abandons violence.

    Sounds reasonable to me.  No violence in exchange for peace.

    Save the lectures about realpolitik until you've gained a basic understanding of the history and competing interests in the situation.

    Oh please - Mr. I hang out with constitutional scholars - yet I won't name them to protect their identity.  And Mr. I refuse to evaluate Israel as a Jewish nation in a global context where there are many nations that are Muslim.  Ignorance indeed.

  • Who are you to assume what I know or don't know?

    The West Bank is a bargaining chip for eventual peace.  Has that ever occurred to you?  Why did Israel dismantle their Gaza settlements and leave Gaza?  Was that not an act of good faith towards peace?  Obviously if Israel was a global superpower like the United States, it would not have to act so politely - it could just say "screw you Mexico / Indians / France / etc, we are taking / have taken your land.  Deal with it."

    Let's review:
    Israel has gained territory, but they are potentially willing to give some / most / all of it back to live in peace with their neighbors in a 2 state solution.  Until then, they will continue to build settlements - and I'm guessing that some of the settlement land slowly gets taken off the table for bargaining purposes, so it's in the Palestinian interest as well to resolve this issue in say, the next 10 years as opposed to the next century.

    Again, this is the reality of the situation.  This isn't a failure to understand something on my part.  This isn't a pro-Israel perspective.  This is realpolitik.

  • I believe in a country's right to defend itself from rocket attack.  And I believe that 1948 and the subsequent territory gains of Israel are as legitimate as 1776 and the subsequent territory gains of the US through war and other acquisitions.  If the US were to give back Texas to Mexico for "peace" or something, that would be very generous of the US, but they are under no obligation to do so.  That's my basic world view.  And I think it's the basic world view of most Americans.  So, I really have no interest in debating these basic points with you.  It's not pro-Israel, it's simple politics.

  • Dude, I have debated you before and it was an utter and complete waste of my time.  I'm going to have to agree with Canadian Gal in her assessment of you.

  • Nice - you can troll rate a comment on your deficient math skills.  Way to go - stick to the liberal arts, kiddo.

  • TR'd for not responding to a direct question and then suggesting that I have a need to condemn Muslim nations.  Absolute idiocy.

  • The larger the numbers does not indicate less significant overlap - that would be a function of percentage.  Wow.  Math skillz.

  • Sorry, I'm taken...

  • Whatever.  It's idiots like you that will have the Republicans back in power in 4 or 8 years.


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