Classism

cross-posted from SavagePolitics.com

I have rarely read anything on the subject of class that was worth the effort it took to get to the end of the article. Defining class usually requires endless dry paragraphs, and no one is ever satisfied by the outcome. Raise the subject of class in conversation and someone from across the room will scream that class in America is dead. And yet class is as palpable to me as how I walk and talk, who I find funny and why, where I went to school, how I speak and to whom. Class is today's invisible prejudice. It is the cut no one sees or worse still, thinks is funny. It is a million dirty jokes, the last place you can put your disdain for others and no one will think less of you.  Class is also the issue that is gumming up this primary campaign like crazy glue.

After the Democratic primary results in Ohio on March 5, 2007, Heidi Przybyla on Bloomberg.com wrote:

Barack Obama has an Archie bunker problem. The white, blue-collar voters personified by the 1970's fictional television character cost Obama yesterday. His Democratic presidential rival, Senator Hillary Clinton of New York beat him 54 percent to 44 percent in industrial Ohio and 58 percent to 40 percent in heavily Catholic Rhode Island. In Ohio's 10th district of Cuyahoga county, a suburban enclave on Cleveland's west side that includes a large population of Polish-Americans, Clinton trounced Obama 61 percent to 37 percent, according to exit polls. In the state's Belmont county, an economically depressed Appalachian border area that is predominantly white, she had a 50-point lead over Obama...

Przybyla reported Joe Trippi, a former senior strategist for John Edwards, as saying:

Obama has had a problem with lower-income, downscale, blue-collar democrats from the beginning. He typically appeals to better educated, upscale Democrats.

Obama's chief strategist, David Axelrod, has denied this. But how he could do so is a puzzle to anyone who has followed Chicago politics.

Since he began running for public office the challenge Obama faces in working-class, white ethnic neighborhoods is well known. Richard Dorsch, a 53-year-old paramedic Fire Chief from Chicago's Edison Park  told Przybyla he supported Clinton in the Illinois primary, but he will vote for John McCain if Obama wins the nomination. This is why:

When he talks to you, it's like he's talking down to you. He doesn't have the experience to talk like that.

This is not racism which is the popular reason asserted for Obama's poor showing with white working class voters. It is class. And class is the elephant in the room that some pundits reference but always pejoratively. One can almost hear them saying, 'don't you get it? These ignorant racist stumblebums are the clods keeping Obama from sweeping to victory.'

Unfortunately, this demonstrates how little pundits do their homework. The issue of these voters is a huge, and perhaps insurmountable problem for the Democrats in November if Obama is their standard bearer. Kent Redfield, a professor of political studies at the University of Illinois in Springfield says:

When Democrats win national elections they really do put that old New Deal coalition back together. The have to get that Reagan Democrat.

The last time Democrats pulled this off was the election of Bill Clinton. After that the coalition was lost. This contributed to the unsuccessful bids by Carter for a second term, and then by Kerry and by Gore. All three it should be pointed out  were  perceived by the white working class of this coalition as wimpy, wordy or nerdy, out of touch, and not sympathetic to the needs of working people. It is critical to realize that race played no part in these decisions. And I do not believe racism from this constituency is playing a role in this primary process either. Rather, white working class people are going for Clinton over Obama because Obama doesn't `get them.' Moreover, he insults them.  It isn't only the infamous `bitter' remarks made to an affluent, audience in San Francisco where he characterizes this constituency--double whammied  by unemployment and hard times-- as "clinging to religion, guns and a distaste for people not like themselves." It is much, much deeper and since it has dogged him from his earliest days, it would seem apparently irreparable. Pryzybyla writes:

Chicago's 41st Ward is a classic white working-class neighborhood of bungalows, modest two-flats and Dutch colonials that shuts down on Pulaski Day, the March holiday celebrating Casimir Pulaski, a Pole who found in the Revolutionary War. An informal survey of employees at a local bank, gym, library and neighborhood restaurant turned up no Obama supporters. Some residents said they were concerned that he might not take into account the concerns of whites. `If Obama gets in, its going to be a black thing and its going to be all blacks for blacks,' said Victoria Mikulski, a 63-year-old clerk in Edison park. `Everything's got to be equal.'

Some might call this racism, but it is nothing of the kind. After decades of affirmative action which has promoted  AA `s over white working class candidates, these voters are wary. They have seen the way the Clintons have been assaulted and demeaned as racists. They have listened while Obama supporters have called them old and out of touch.  They know the jokes made at their expense, and they understand they have been scapegoated for decades as ignorant and prejudiced. They also know that the deck in terms of race and class has all been stacked on the side of race. No one wrote of their plight when  thirty-five years ago, a growing AA population on the city's west side pushed whites north into Edison Park. No one stood up for them when their jobs went south or overseas. And no one has cared much to talk about a standard of living that is sliding backwards.

Is it any wonder these people don't trust Obama? Veiled references to bigoted and  white trash voters, code for racist, has emanated like fumes off a garbage heap from the Obama campaign  from the outset. Al Sharpton on Feb. 17  called Hillary supporters, "uneducated, redncked white trash." And On April 24 Rhandi Rhodes, an Obama supporter and radio host, called Hillary voters "white trash." So lets take a moment and look at that terminology.  White trash is a noun. It is offensive slang. It is used as a disparaging term for a poor white person or poor white people/ and or as a disparaging term for a white person or white people perceived as being lazy and ignorant. Even now, in our age of political correctness, it is considered tolerable and even appropriate to ridicule  white persons of the lower economic class as ignorant, unintelligent, eccentric, crude, unattractive, lazy, racist, alcoholic, religious to the point of absurdity, inbred, and prone to violent behavior. Trailer Trash and Redneck of course are other equally demeaning terms.

On  Wednesday, April 23, David Axelrod explaining Obama's nearly 10 point loss the day before in Pennsylvania said on National Public Radio:

"The white working class has gone to the Republican nominee for many elections, going back even to the Clinton years. This is not new that Democratic candidates don't rely solely on those votes."

This is factually inaccurate.

It is also not helpful to the Democratic Party's chances in November if their candidate cannot carry this vote.  In  a 2006 piece for "The American Prospect" John Halpin and Ruy Teixeira write:

Keep in mind that Bill Clinton actually carried white working-class voters in both his successful presidential campaigns (by a single percentage point in both instances)... Progressives' difficulties here are underscored by the large size of this group. According to the 2004 Current Population Survey (CPS) Voter Supplement data, white working-class voters are a larger portion of the electorate than indicated by the exit polls -- 52 percent, rather than 43 percent. Based on educational attainment trends and population trends by race, a reasonable guess is that the size of the white working class in another 10 years, even though it is shrinking, will still be around 46 percent to 47 percent -- a very large group among which to be doing very poorly. In fact, a progressive majority coalition is simply not possible if that poor performance continues, despite the many ways in which demographic change and growth favor progressives, including the increasing proportion of single women within the white working-class population.

 http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?arti cleId=11443#4

But everywhere so-called progressives who decry racism in any form are rushing to malign and demean this core Democratic voting group. Perhaps nothing demonstrates this better than this picture in the Huffington Post which accompanied an article by Thomas Edsall titled: "On Course For Another White Guy Election" 

huffpo photo

As if the picture were not offensive enough. Edsall writes:

The prominent role of more centrist and conservative white men in the Democratic primary process is confounding to some. Just last year, Democratic political scientist Thomas F. Schaller was breathing a sigh of relief over the prospect that white men were a steadily diminishing factor in the political landscape. In an essay titled "So long, white boy" published September 17, 2007 on Salon, Schaller wrote:
Could 2008 be the year that Democrats finally admit an old sweetheart is never coming back, and stop pandering to the white male voter? The Democratic obsession with the down-home, blue-collar, white male voter, that heartbreaker who crossed the aisle to the Republicans many decades ago, may finally be coming to a merciful end....it's a waste of time and resources for the Democrats to pursue them -- a classic sucker's bet...Democrats finally seem to realize that cultural contortionism in the pursuit of Bubba produces little more than smiles on the faces of Republican consultants.

Inotherwords the progressive prejudice against the white working class has reached an apotheosis wherein the best one can do is wish they would just hurry up and die off. And yet in his article Schaller has to give the devil his due:

Yet centrist Democrats continue to urge the party to find new ways to lure white male voters back into the fold. Bill Galston, former domestic policy advisor to Bill Clinton and one of Washington's sharpest analysts, is a proponent of a Democratic reinvestment in white male voters.

Well, somebody gets it. But most do not. And our impervious and elitist attitude to class is the element that will lose Democrats the election.  It is more than I can bear, let alone understand, to see my parents and my friends ridiculed and written off as worthless, good only for dying off.  When death reigned out of the sky on 9/11, 2001, and stock brokers and financial analysis's were running downstairs out of the burning towers, firemen were running  upstairs to rescue the wounded and the helpless. Close to 350 white guys gave their lives that day in the service of their country.  And the whole world took their hat off to them. It is about time the Democratic Party did the same.

Tags: Barack Obama, begging for a permanent ban, classism, Democratic Party, Joe Trippi, racism, white working class (all tags)

Comments

177 Comments

Absurd.

by dystopianfuturetoday 2008-04-24 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Absurd.

baseacid

How perfectly typical.

by Nobama 2008-04-24 03:56PM | 0 recs
Drink all the kool aid you like.

by dystopianfuturetoday 2008-04-24 04:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Drink all the kool aid you like.

According to Gallup, 32 percent of Americans think Clinton "looks down on average Americans", compared to only 26 percent thinking the same thing of Obama.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/106744/Only-2 6-Say-Obama-Looks-Down-Americans.aspx

When "average Americans" is changed to "working-class Americans", the numbers are 32 for Hillary Clinton again, while Barack Obama and John McCain are at 25 and 24 percent, respectively.

by Mostly 2008-04-24 04:29PM | 0 recs
But the evidence says otherwise..

Uncovered Healthcare expenses for technically insured people are the single greatest cause of formerly midle class people being stripped of their equity. Obama's healthcare plan will NOT ADDRESS THAT ISSUE ADEQUUATELY, Hillary's will.

Health disasters do not discriminate. However, Obamas healthcare plan DOES discriminate BY NOT ADDRESSING CURRENT DISCRIMINATION.

Hillary's healthcare plan, by ADEQUATELY covering everybody will make a HUGE difference to poor and middle class people. Rich people, who can afford to self-insure (go without insurance) aren't as threatened by sudden accidents or illness.

Why are poor abd middle class people voting against their best interests?

Why is anybody voting for Obama?

by architek 2008-04-24 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: But the evidence says otherwise..

Way to stay ON TOPIC with your replies.

"This issue is a bigger problem for Clinton than Obama, and here's some facts to back it up."

"Obama's healthcare plan sucks!"

by Okamifujutsu 2008-04-24 09:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Drink all the kool aid you like.

Get out of here with your pesky facts - this is a Linfar diary, let's keep it a fact free zone :)

by interestedbystander 2008-04-24 09:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Drink all the kool aid you like.

nyit

by Nobama 2008-04-24 04:31PM | 0 recs
Texas Cracker is my Favorite Flavor
tex
by edmandspath 2008-04-24 04:59PM | 0 recs
Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

by dystopianfuturetoday 2008-04-24 07:07PM | 0 recs
Ayatollah Clinton Issues Fatwa Against Wright

... and the residents of North Carolina for their fire and brimstone preaching.

by bernardpliers 2008-04-25 09:31AM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama doesn't seem to .."

In the comments below Linfar makes the claim that "Obama doesn't seem to like white people".  Isn't it time she was banned again?

by interestedbystander 2008-04-24 09:52PM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama doesn't seem to .."
Sounds good to me, please do it (ban linfar).
I'm new here so don't know the process. How does it happen?
by dawolfe 2008-04-25 05:15AM | 0 recs
Re: "Obama doesn't seem to .."

It's up to the mods - she's near the line at the moment, she'll be over it soon - then goodbye linfar.

by interestedbystander 2008-04-25 05:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

So when a voter says:    `If Obama gets in, its going to be a black thing and its going to be all blacks for blacks,' said Victoria Mikulski, a 63-year-old clerk in Edison park. `Everything's got to be equal.'

You say: Some might call this racism, but it is nothing of the kind.

So what would be a racist comment then?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-24 03:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Yeah that woman is racist trash.

by Democratic Unity 2008-04-24 03:45PM | 0 recs
well, they don't get it?

The reason race shouldn't be brought up isn't that there is no racism, it's because things have to really change, blabbing doesn't help.  Of course black Americans have suffered the worst of the injustices. I think pretty much every immigrant group has overcome prejudice by pecking down and blacks have always been the downest and easiest to peck.  If there were enough to go around, then affirmative action wouldn't be controversial.  The pugs have won on racism since Reagan, and he's now seen as a great guy, weird?  I'm for Hillary but there is no way if Obama's our candidate that he'll do 'too much' for black Americans. Hillary's plans are more far-reaching, she'll invest in disadvantaged communities, and both universal pre-school and free post high school training or college will be a big help. People do need hope, that they can get ahead too, that's real.  It's not maybe fair that obama had to be a 'better' candidate to win, and here I don't mean more qualified, more knowledgeable, or more prepared, he's not the best of the two. I mean he ought never to have mentioned race, and he ought never to have said or implied that Bill Clinton and Hillary are racists. They aren't, and saying they are gives cover to real racists one's that really don't understand the reality in black communities, the garden variety injustice that black Americans experience daily, when they're stopped by police, for example. Racism needs to sleep until there is a level playing field for all poor black kids and all poor non-black kids.  Otherwise you get those who wrongly think blacks vote for him because they're racists in order to cover over their own lack of trust.  He's their favorite son, for goodness sake, why wouldn't blacks vote for him, whites too do, he's not a bad candidate, he's just not in my opinion anyway the best one.  And i'd say most all Democrats would be glad to have a president of color.  I know I would.  I want her because I agree with her most on the issues, and because Bush has left such a huge mess we need a workahholic wonk to make a dent in it. I'm not, however, against him.  If he were like her only him I'd be for him, and really if he were a her.  Hey, I'm also voting my sex, does that make me sexist?   I don't like admitting I'll campaign for him if he's the nom, cause I want her to win, but right now I must admit it. Yes, if he's the nom I'll work to get him elected. Not just because McCain would be a disaster either and he'd be the only plausible choice. I'd really like to see a president of color, and if I can't have her, I'll want him.  Does that make me a racist?  

by anna shane 2008-04-24 04:51PM | 0 recs
Re: well, they don't get it?

I'm still old fashioned enough to think that giving disadvantaged groups a leg up is a good thing and not the same as promoting the old-boy network.

I'd promote a female candidate over a male one all other things being equal.  People have to get used to the idea of women and black people in positions of power before it's routine which is what the goal is.  I don't think that makes me racist or sexist.

by Mostly 2008-04-24 05:05PM | 0 recs
What little poor people have WILL be taken away..

if we dont band together to defend it.

For people of all backgrounds, black and white, poor and middle class.

Despite his lies, Obama represents the status quo far more than Hillary does. And for poor people, both black and white, what little they have is under attack. Its clear to me that Obama represents denial and silent acceptance of those forces.

Like his pal, slumlord Rezko, many of the forces that back Obama exist by exploiting high profit niches, in a form of modern colonialism. Its very profitable to exploit the poor and the powerless, because they can't defend themselves.

Poor people have very little but what they have will often be taken away if they have nobody to defend them. Obama has shown by his deceptive marketing of his helthcare plan that he is not above lying about important issues to get elected. Even if those lies hurt, or even destroy the lives of thousands or even millions of people.

As gas prices rise, urban real estate is becoming far more valuable. Public housing is no longer defended in Washington as it was in the past. Working class neighborhoods are threatened by predatory lenders and predatory healthcare costs and debt collection. An entire generation is being stripped of its equity and the good jobs that enabled its creation wont come back to help people rebuild it without pro-active intervention.

Urban housing is valuable to poor people because it is their homes. But its too valuable for poor people to occupy without active intervention by government to prevent it from being taken away from them, by one method or another. Thats another area where Obama's past scares me.

Nobody who had a well developed moral sense would have had such a close association with a slumlord like Rezko and then lied about it.

Nobody who cared about working people would steal our chance at a workable healthcare plan after the Bush fiasco by bait and switch as Obama is doing. That is why i think he is a pretender, a sham, and he should not be the Democrats' presidential candidate.

by architek 2008-04-24 05:48PM | 0 recs
Really?

blacks have always been the downest and easiest to peck. tell that to all the Native Americans we herded off to reservaions where their completed education level is the lowest, alcoholism is among the highest, as well as unemployment. Ask them what Affirmative Action did for them... and how AAs are the downest and easiest to peck. I am so sick of the race BS in this campaign. If BO did not look like an AA (instead of Bi-racial) he wouldn't even still be in this race. It would probably have been been Clinton and Edwards. BO brought nothing to the campaign except an inspiring speech that he dragged out from 1 1/2 yrs ago from Duval Patrick thanks to scumbag Axelrod. But bless his heart. Of course he's entitled" to use race as a wedge issue--after all, as a black man he could get shot just going to the gas station ---in his multi-million dollar earning neigborhood.

by JHL 2008-04-25 06:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Really?

Oh Common; I bet Oprah and all those rich Black billionaires and millionaires disagrees with you.

I am part of the minority myself, but I am not bitter; I am working my ass off with 2 jobs,

I don't think Obama will fight for the issues that is important to me; health care; women's right, help for the veterans and their dependents, care for seniors.

and i hate Obama's vote of partial birth abortion... at least Hillary voted his conscience.

by SHIBAM8P 2008-04-26 08:47AM | 0 recs
Trash?

Can we come up with better words than trash?

by psychodrew 2008-04-24 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Trash?

trash I think gets at how pejorartive the thinking is You don't agree? And of course, it is waht people say. Unfortunately.

by linfar 2008-04-24 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Trash?

The comment certainly was trash, but to call the person trash?  

by psychodrew 2008-04-24 08:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

No she isn't. You are sliming her because you don't understand her. The point of this diary is that white working class people have quite an axe to grind of their own at this pt. And the dems need to recognize this. What she is saying is, Can I get my share of the pie with this guy. What give it away is when she says, "Everything has to be equal" I know this hard for many Obama supporters to understand but many white working class people feel that they have been kicked aside in the war on racism and that they have paid the most.

by linfar 2008-04-24 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Yes, and they are mostly Pat Buchanan voters.

I see this crap in Appalachia all the time. And you know what? It's bullshit. It's based on the old fashioned entitlement thing: this is a white man's country and whites get their share first. That a white woman would complain about blacks getting a better share than whites is just pure ignorance. Look at all the black CEOs! Blaming her struggles on affirmative action is classic GOP race baiting and she fell for it. If she opposes Obama because she thinks he'll just "give everything to the blacks" then she is nothing more than a racist.

Perhaps you don't know much about Chicago politics, but these are the kinds of people who lined up in Marquette Park in 1966 and threw bricks at Martin Luther King for demanding open housing. Why should we let the blacks into our neighborhoods, the working class white Lithuanians asked?  They believed they were entitled and blacks should live only in slums.  Chicago has a horrendous history of this and the woman cited is a perfect example.

Don't pander to this racist crap and call it concern for the white working class. It's the politics of fascism - displacing economic anxiety on to matters of race and culture. And it's disgusting when Democrats aid and abet this strategy.

by elrod 2008-04-24 10:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

well said elrod.  Methinks that linfar knows about Berkeley, USC and Greenwich Village but is not such an expert on Chicago's working class.  

I am someone who had lived amongst the fearful blue-collar whites in Chicago for thirty years, and your description is far closer to accurate than linfar's rosy "classism" description.

As for learning to bring working class whites into the fold, I will defer to David Axelrod who helped Harold Washington get elected the first black mayor of the city of Chicago and will help put Barack Obama in office too.

by dannyinla 2008-04-24 11:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism
If a white, middle-class voter had said that, would you still defend it? Thought so.
by Jay R 2008-04-24 11:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

That wasn't a racist comment.  It was a comment about how the man predicted Obama would behave as president.  About policies or practices he would implement.  It basically said he doesn't trust Obama because he is afraid he would indiscriminately favor black issues over American issues.

Go to our friend Wikipedia:
"Racism has many definitions, the most common being that members of one racial group consider themselves intrinsically superior to members of other racial groups."

If the man said in some way that he has a better, superior person, or that all whites were, because he was white and Obama is black, he would have made a racist comment.  If he had said that a black man can't/shouldn't be president because he is, by the nature of being black, somehow incapable, that would be racist.
And it would be reprehensible.

That is one of the things that has made the dialog in this election so darned frustrating.  Differing with Obama about his beliefs on race has been cast as making a racist comment.  Same with some of the class discussions.  Let's not confuse them.

by mbolack 2008-04-24 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

It  would be akin to someone saying that if Lieberman was elected President he's be all for Israel.

by handsomegent 2008-04-24 04:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Except that Joe Lieberman has a voting record to back that up.

Barack Obama shows no evidence of favoring "black supremacy".  It's not a racist statement, but I'd argue that only a racist would be that paranoid.

by Mostly 2008-04-24 04:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

to me a racist comment would be I am not voting for some no-good n---. What she is saying is she is fearful that if an AA gets elected her little share of the pie will get even smaller. Working class whites and AAs have been pitted against each other for a long time. Those fears have to be addressed. Unfortunately, Obama doesn't seem to like white people. His pastor is bigtime serious in this regard.

by linfar 2008-04-24 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Now you are pushing it, Linfar. Where do get off on saying "Unfortunately, Obama doesn't seem to like white people". THAT is a load of racist crap and I hope you get banned for it!

by dawolfe 2008-04-24 05:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Excuse me. You don't remember Typical White People. Or his preacher ranting about white people. Or his running away fromthe white guy who wanted to take his picture--and that is all. Ove rand over and over people are sceaming if a white person was doing this about black people you would be screaming your head off

by linfar 2008-04-24 06:26PM | 0 recs
If I may.

I remember "typical white people" in a speech asking for a more perfect union, urging whites and blacks to see themselves as citizens of the US, not just the colour of their skin.

I remember an exerpt of one pastor's speech being circulated by right-wing smear machines, regardless of that man's service to the greater Christian community.

I remember most of this stuff being right-wing talking points devoid of real argumental merit.

You obviously missed the memo.

by Mardarkin 2008-04-25 01:30AM | 0 recs
by tbetz 2008-04-25 05:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

"Obama doesn't seem to like white people"  This statement is patently ridiculous, offensive and sadly wholly typical of you.  I was going to HR it - but I would rather the reasonable Clinton supporters see just how unhinged you are.  You just can't help yourself can you Linfar?  

by interestedbystander 2008-04-24 09:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

And so you respond to this woman by continuing to pit blacks against white working class voters. Are you deaf to the history of this country? Do you realize how much blood has been shed in this country over suspicions that blacks are taking jobs from whites?  That this woman fell hook, line and sinker for the oldest racist trope in the book doesn't excuse her. You don't have to drop the n-bomb to be a racist. But if you assume that Obama will cater to the black community only because he's black - despite all evidence to the contrary - then you are a racist.

I heard this bullshit from a woman in Tennessee recently who complained that "all the blacks have to stick together." As if whites in the South didn't "all stick together" to fight the civil rights movement.

by elrod 2008-04-24 10:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

I believe linfar's comments say far more about her than they do about Obama.

by dannyinla 2008-04-24 11:33PM | 0 recs
Congratulations.

I just re-read your diary to give you the maximum benefit of the doubt. But yeah, it's racist, just like I thought at first and second glance.

And a big shout-out to all the Hillary supporters who heaved this pile of racist vomit on to the rec list. Y'all are awesome.

by MBNYC 2008-04-25 06:14AM | 0 recs
Racism Unmasked

 

 Unfortunately, Obama doesn't seem to like white people.  


 

Did that really say what I think? Let's look again...

 

Unfortunately, Obama doesn't seem to like white people.

My my, you aren't even hiding your racism at this point. And this is staying up on MyDD?

by edmandspath 2008-04-25 06:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

You don't even know what racism is.

by Skaje 2008-04-25 12:17PM | 0 recs
A recist comment is one

that demeans a black person because of his skin.  Thus a Latino is referred to as lazy or a thief because he is a Latino.  An AA is referred to as one who is shiftless, irresponsible, etc.  Stating that you believe one would favor one race over another is simply stating an opinion that things would be handled unfairly.

by macmcd 2008-04-24 07:26PM | 0 recs
Re: A recist comment is one

Well, to get technical, Racism is a belief that one person is inferior/superior based upon the color of their skin. This person has come to the belief that he would be an inferior president simply because he is black. The rationalization as for why his being black makes him an inferior president is irrelevant. Its textbook "closet" racism, where the speaker is making racist remarks while not realizing that its actually racist.

by Lost Thought 2008-04-25 06:33AM | 0 recs
Re: A racist comment is one

or treating or identifying any human as "trash".

"White trash" is the language of the Confederate, the slave holder, and the hater.

Racism is a kind of hate. Lots of hate in this diary and in the comments.

Please don't rec.

thanks.

by redwagon 2008-04-25 07:14AM | 0 recs
Re: A recist comment is one

I take offense to that as a African American

although I don't think you meant to be offensive or racsist let me clarify you may disagree with the term racsist in this context but how about if we subsitute the word Racsist with PREJUDICE??

(1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

****************

she basically thought that Obama would show favoritisism to blacks simply because he is black. no facts to back it up  she came to the judgment JUST ONLY on his skin color and his SKIN COLOR alone.  that is the Uneducated that Clinton appeals to

by wellinformed 2008-04-25 08:02AM | 0 recs
It's racial paranoia,

which usually is a good indicator of racism. If there were any evidence that Obama would be excessively favor blacks, then I wouldn't say it is paranoia.

Rev. Wright is guilty of exactly the same kind of racial paranoia.

by fairleft 2008-04-25 09:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Funny how Obama, the candidate worth the least out of all the original candidates of both parties, is the one getting tagged as an elitist.  McCain married into a fortune, literally over $100 million.  The Clintons have made that much over the past eight years.

The Obamas have only 1% of that, just one million dollars.

This is ridiculous.

by Skaje 2008-04-24 03:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

elitist |əˈlētist; āˈlētist|
noun
a person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite.
* a person who believes that they belong to an elite : designers are a bunch of elitists who don't live in the real world.

elite
noun
hobnobbing with Southport's elite best, pick, cream, crème de la crème, flower, nonpareil, elect; high society, jet set, beautiful people, beau monde, haut monde, glitterati; aristocracy, nobility, upper class.

by Nobama 2008-04-24 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

un·found·ed [uhn-foun-did] -adjective

1. without foundation; not based on fact, realistic considerations, or the like: unfounded suspicions.

2. not established; not founded: the prophet of a religion as yet unfounded.  

by fogiv 2008-04-24 10:46PM | 0 recs
Elitism has nothing to do with how

much money one has.  It has everything to do with the way the individual values other human beings.  Obama showed by his actions in Chicago that he valued his wealthy friends, employer, etc. over the needy people who were being used to skim profits out of the system and to leave them in just as bad a condition as they were before you "organized" for them.  The only people who were helped were the Rezkos, Davises, Ayers, Auchis, and Obamas.

by macmcd 2008-04-24 07:29PM | 0 recs
Right!

It's why he went to work for a Wall Street firm right out of Harvard, rather than working as a community organizer in Chicago's poor neighborhoods at a mere $12,000 a year.

Oh, wait.  No, he didn't.

Yeah, your cunning elitists always take low paying jobs with no social status as a way to sneak up the ladder into the elite.

by ogre 2008-04-24 09:14PM | 0 recs
Right out of Harvard he worked for Rezko-connected

law firm. He worked as a community organizer for three years before he entered law school.

by fairleft 2008-04-25 09:49AM | 0 recs
Reagan Democrats

"The last time Democrats pulled this off was the election of Bill Clinton."

Ummm. No. Perot got the Reagan Democrats. Twice. Bill Clinton never broke 50%....

The REagan Democrats ran kicking and screaming away from Bill and Hillary in 1994 and gave Congress to the Republicans.

Thanks for playing, though!

by Democratic Unity 2008-04-24 03:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Reagan Democrats

So quickly people forget Ross Perot.

by LandStander 2008-04-24 03:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Reagan Democrats

What a perverted sense of history. The reason the Dems lost Congress in 1994 was because of the Dems in Congress, not because of Bill Clinton who had very high approval ratings. You ignore that fact that it was Congress that had low approval ratings, not Clinton.

by Nobama 2008-04-24 04:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Reagan Democrats


   Nobama...you are simply wrong.

  Clinton's approval in 1994 nationally was in the low 40's.

  In some states, it was in the 30's.

  Get your facts straight. You are dead wrong.

by southernman 2008-04-24 04:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Reagan Democrats

The Dems lost in '94 first of all because it's quite common for a first termer's party to lose seats.  The Repugs had a lot more money.  They had a unifying message. And let's not forget the Brady Bill which a lot of southern Dems opposed, and gays in the military.  Bill C was running against a powerful tide. This is NOT a liberal country for the most part. That's just a fact.

by handsomegent 2008-04-24 04:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Reagan Democrats

It's not common for Democrats to get wiped out like that.  Prior to that, they had controlled congress for 50 years - all the way back to the Eisenhauer Administration.

by Mostly 2008-04-24 04:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Reagan Democrats

Just to quibble--there is a strong strain of liberalism in this country, even in rural areas and the South.  But it's tactically incompetent and the Democrats aren't comfortable with representing it.

by Endymion 2008-04-24 10:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Reagan Democrats

Yes! It's quite common to lose more than 10 Senate seats!

by Democratic Unity 2008-04-25 07:14AM | 0 recs
Blame everything on the Clintons.

His approval ratings were low in 1994, but Congress's approval ratings were even lower.

From Gallup:

President Bill Clinton's approval rating before the midterm elections in 1994 was 46%, and three weeks later it was 43% -- a decline, but within the poll's margin of error.

The Congressional Approval Rating the two weeks before the 1994 midterm elections was 23%.

The Democrats lost Congress because they were corrupt and innept.  There was a scandal in the House Post Office and the Chair of the House Ways and Means committee was indicted and ultimately spent 15 months in prison.

Blaming the Clintons is a very convenient excuse.  The Clintons destroyed the party.  The Clintons ruined health care.

You know what?  The 1990's was an era of relative peace and prosperity.  We had fiscal restraint and a growing economy.  Health care failed because the House and Senate Democrats were too chicken shit to fight for it.  They ran away from it and made Hillary a scapegoat.  Like the loyal Democrat she is, she took the beating, she took the fall, and she stepped out of the spotlight.

The Clintons made a lot of mistakes in the 1990s.  Bill and Hillary both acknowledge that.  But don't make them a scapegoat for a corrupt, innept, and out of touch Congress.

by psychodrew 2008-04-24 08:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Blame everything on the Clintons.


  I wasn't scapegoating anyone...merely pointing the factual inaccuracies of his statement.

  Nobama sounds like Clinton had soaring approval ratings and Congress was in the ditch.

  Congress was in the ditch...but so was the President.

by southernman 2008-04-24 09:20PM | 0 recs
What were Bill Clinton's favorability ratings

again even in the middle of the impeachment?  Many of those who claimed to have hated Bill Clinton and who proudly voted for Bush are now pining for the Clinton days and they say they intend to vote for Hillary if she is the nominee.

by macmcd 2008-04-24 07:33PM | 0 recs
White working class voters

"Keep in mind that Bill Clinton actually carried white working-class voters in both his successful presidential campaigns (by a single percentage point in both instances"

Ummmm....he won a plurality. Again...Ross Perot split the white working class vote...

by Democratic Unity 2008-04-24 03:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

hmmm.. I might agree with the notion, sort of. Only cause my parents are some of these working class peeps that dont like Obama and will vote McCain in Nov. They are dems for sure but dont have good feelings about the man, they are centrists and feel uneasy about him just like they did about kerry....

by amde 2008-04-24 03:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

They're your parents, damn it!  If you love them, you have a responsibility to keep them from making a mistake!

by Endymion 2008-04-24 10:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

I actually think centrists are the only ones with a logical, rational reason to potentially pick McCain over Obama.  Hillary is a centrist on pretty much every issue but health care.  I love her health care proposal, more than I like Obama's.  But the rest of her positions are centrist.  If you are a centrist, it's not ridiculous to potentially favor McCain.  Now McCain has all sorts of issues going on, because he used to be a centrist (sort of) but is now portraying himself as a hard-core conservative to some people while also trying to sort of retain his "centrist" reputation.

What's ridiculous is when liberals and progressives who are to the left of Hillary ALSO say they will vote McCain.  That doesn't make any sense in any scenario to me, even if health care is your top issue (because McCain definitely doesn't give a crap about health care).

by ProgressiveDL 2008-04-25 06:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

My oh my.

And the similar comments about women wouldn't be misogynistic, and should be the basis of our choice for president?

by wrb 2008-04-24 03:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Seriously.  I hope everyone would do a mental experiment where they substitute 'black' for 'female' and 'Hillary' for 'Obama' and see how much sense it makes.

"I think everyone should be equal.  If Hillary Clinton gets in it's going to be woman this and woman that..." or whatever that person's statement was.  And they'd have a better reason than they do in Obama's case, as she's promoted her gender as a reason she should be elected.

The only thing is it's absolutely absurd to suddenly be concerned about white guys getting a fair shake when it looks like for fucking ONCE someone who isn't a white guy might get elected president.

by Mostly 2008-04-24 05:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Let's remember that the vast majority of African-Americans, the stalwart base of the Democratic party, are working class.

I wonder if black blue collar workers feel that they are being talked "down to" by Obama.

And claiming that this quote from your article has nothing to do with racism, is beyond ridiculous:

"If Obama gets in, its going to be a black thing and its going to be all blacks for blacks,' said Victoria Mikulski, a 63-year-old clerk in Edison park. `Everything's got to be equal."

Lately I've been noticing a lot of odes to the white working class on this board.  Some of which have come from people who said they pay $400 a week for day care.  Please excuse me if I believe some of these diaries seem less like legitimate concern and more like political axe grinding.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-04-24 03:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Yeah - I was stunned that anyone pays $400 a week for day care - and even more stunned that saving $325 a week when the child entered kindergarten (because she would still pay $75 for after school programs)would enable her to go out to eat once in awhile.  $325 a week for going out to eat?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-24 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Polls show not even white Americans believe that Obama looks down on them.  I'm going to keep posting this until it sinks in that this is a Clinton/McCain talking point that has no basis in reality.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/106744/Only-2 6-Say-Obama-Looks-Down-Americans.aspx

Nearly a third of Americans believe that Hillary Clinton "looks down on" or "does not respect" average Americans, compared with only a quarter for Barack Obama and John McCain.  When you change "Average Americans" to "working-class Americans", the numbers are identical.

by Mostly 2008-04-24 04:35PM | 0 recs
This white American does

believe he looks down on me.

And I've listened very closely, I never hear him ask for our votes. On his website he only asks us to believe.

by catfish1 2008-04-24 07:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

"Barack Obama has an Archie bunker problem"
..

Archie was a Nixon Republican
I have NO problem with losing that vote.

yep Sen. Clinton can relate..
I would venture to say she has not filled up the tank on her car in 20 years....

by nogo war 2008-04-24 03:50PM | 0 recs
Boris Yeltsin was a bubba, bonded with Bill C.

over this. Hillary writes about this in her book.

She also writes that after Monica Lewinsky, while she wanted to stay in bed she stuck to her schedule, because a forklift operator would do the same.

by catfish1 2008-04-24 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Boris Yeltsin was a bubba, bonded with Bill C.

Because as we know, books published by politicians running for political office never contain any politically motivated anecdotes, particularly when they are unverifiable.

by Lost Thought 2008-04-25 06:42AM | 0 recs
Dorothy Rodham's childhood

was very harsh. She had to move out and become a live-in maid at age 14 or 15. Her own mother gave her up when she was just 8 and her sister was just 3.

She was accepted at Dartmouth but could not afford to go so did not go to college. Hillary speaks often that children do not get the opportunity to meet their full potential - it's almost an obsession with her, at least in her book.

by catfish1 2008-04-24 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism
That is firefighter, Linfar. You are correct that there were 200 "white guys" who died on 9/11. NYC has had a patronage/nepotistic old style union system in the fire dept. for eons. I read that only .4% of NYFD are women (that is 4/1000). I live in a city of 200,000+ where over 20% of firefighters are women. Your point is well taken, because you include gender, race, and class in your example. But who says all those white guys are Bubbas? NYC firefighters are solidly middle class, they're not working stiffs on hourly wage and subject to layoff, etc.
I am all for Democrats and a Democratic Party who take the high road. Enough of the pandering, the compromising, the caving to the elites, the Republofascists, the Christianists, AND Archie Bunker. Vote for Meathead!
by dawolfe 2008-04-24 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

a LOT of black firefighters died on 9/11.  And a lot of transit workers, who in NYC are overwhelmingly black, disobeyed city orders and drove directly to the site to help out and ferry people out of the area.

by Mostly 2008-04-24 05:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

A lot of white working class men work for me.

They, to a man, dislike Hillary but are intrigued by Obama.

There might be some misogyny there- several have been tormented by ex-wive & girlfriends.

However, all seem to  to see him see him as a stand-up guy who happens to have a tan.

I think you are projecting.

by wrb 2008-04-24 03:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

So all working class people are white?  Considering the nexus between race and race, that makes no sense.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-24 03:55PM | 0 recs
We are democrats

Everything we do should be about inclusion, about lifting those less fortunate up- certainly not about cutting out those that the system has failed or is failing.

by linc 2008-04-24 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: We are democrats

i totally agree with you, inclusion should be the democrats main goal right now.

by amde 2008-04-24 04:03PM | 0 recs
Yep

the fact that it isn't just a 'matter of fact' and something that we are finding ourselves fighting for... well its disturbing- to say the least.

by linc 2008-04-24 04:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Yep

If you want someone that most Americans believe doesn't look down on them, then don't choose Hillary Clinton.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/106744/Only-2 6-Say-Obama-Looks-Down-Americans.aspx

by Mostly 2008-04-24 04:37PM | 0 recs
Hillary has a class problem


   she somehow sees poor people as living in boutique states, unless they vote for her.

  She's got a lot of class..but it's all low. As evidenced by being the first Democrat to use 9/11 as a fear tactic.

by southernman 2008-04-24 04:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary has a class problem

You just proved the pooint of the diary!! You don't even know how insulting it is to say "she has a lot of class, but it's all low." What on earth is the matter with your ability to see prejudice? If I substituted black you would get it just fine. Jeeesh

by linfar 2008-04-24 05:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary has a class problem

As someone who works for a union, who's the child of someone who worked for the same union, I can't help but laugh at this sudden patronizing and studious concern for the working class, with diaries like this and the other one by NewHampster where he announced that his elitist days are over and he's going to start shopping at walmart from now on.  You guys sound like tourists.

by Mostly 2008-04-24 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary has a class problem

I'll match my union credentials against yours anyday--and so now here's the deal. Why not discuss the issue the diary raises. Or is that not touristy enough for ya.

by linfar 2008-04-24 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary has a class problem


   Nice. Just assume I'm black.

  For the record, I'm a southern white male.

  And yes, it's classless what Hillary has done. The first Democrat to use 9/11 as a scare tactic...and against a fellow Democrat. We should hand her a plaque, shouldn't we?

by southernman 2008-04-24 09:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

When he talks to you, it's like he's talking down to you.

A recent Gallup poll found that more Americans think Clinton looks down on working-class Americans than Obama does:

It's worth pointing out that this poll was conducted last week, after all the coverage of Obama's "bitter" comments.

He may be getting tagged as "elitist" by some people, but more average Americans feel that Clinton is the one who doesn't get them.

by jdusek 2008-04-24 04:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

You posted partial poll results so you're being selective. The same poll asked of a different group showed Obama with 26% and Hillary 32% and a margin of error of ± 5%.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/106744/Only-2 6-Say-Obama-Looks-Down-Americans.aspx

The survey method of that poll says nothing about the gender or racial mix.

The PA primary demonstrated conclusively that Hillary won the blue collar vote. IOW, the primary was somewhat at odds with that Gallup poll.

by Nobama 2008-04-24 04:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

I'm sorry, you're correct.

The second group also found that more people think Clinton looks down on them (32%) than Obama does (26%).

I wouldn't want to give the false impression that only one of the groups thought Clinton was more disrespectful of average Americans. They both did.

by jdusek 2008-04-24 04:32PM | 0 recs
But Obama IS the REAL elitist..

Hillary is working to reverse stratification, as shown by her UNIVERSAL healthcare plan, her support of expanded student loans, and her forward looking economic plan.

Obama is lacking ideas, his healthcare plan is designed to fail, which will really HURT poor people, and his economic plan is basically focusing on pork.

Obviously, Obama is the elitist because he is showing that he doesnt care about very real issues. This isn't some kind of statistical game.

Hillary understands how people are falling off the map. Obama is helping the powers that be sneakily push them off.

by architek 2008-04-24 05:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

The numbers don't lie - Hillary Clinton has an elitist problem.

Appalachia is VERY conservative; Barack Obama is going to have a hard time with the white vote in: PA, OH, KY, and WV.

Outside of that small strip, Barack Obama carries the working class just fine.  He wiped out Hillary Clinton in Wisconsin and Maryland, polls ahead of her in Michigan, and consistently does better than her in the midwest.

by Mostly 2008-04-24 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Very thoughtful diary. As one of those "white trash racists" that hasn't supported Obama in this primary I would like to say a few things.

First, race has no bearing in me not supporting Obama. Obama has not reached out to me and does not lead with policy. He has been given a free ride by the media and has not been vetted. Then given his association and defending of people like Rev. Wright and William Ayers who hate me specifically because I am white, I think it is a joke that he blames ANYONE of racism.

If he really wants to win white men like me he should try to reach out to us with policy, not by calling us racists because we expect more than objects that shine to win our vote.

My family never owned slaves. We came over from Ireland because we were starving during the Potato Famine and many people forget we were discriminated against mightily then. Because of that I don't feel any guilt from slavery, because I never was part of it, nor where my forefathers.

by RDemocrat 2008-04-24 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

William Ayers is a white guy, genius.

by Mostly 2008-04-24 04:42PM | 0 recs
Notice how the Obama folk..

ALWAYS change the subject...

...NEVER answer the questions...

...NEVER address the issues.

by architek 2008-04-24 05:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Notice how the Obama folk..

You made me laugh. I know exactly what you are saying.  I guess they think that is being smart or something. But it is just so dumb. We are supposedly all democrats here.

by linfar 2008-04-24 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Notice how the Obama folk..
You're still an unapologetic, admitted liar, so I doubt anyone cares what you think at this point.

Or have you retracted your bald-faced lies yet?

by Jay R 2008-04-24 11:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Thankyou for this comment. If we cannot get this issue out into the open, I believe we are doomed in November. Also, one Irisher to another--hardly anyone knows the Irish were treated worse than slaves in many parts of the south because slaves were an investment. The Irish you could use up and not give a damn.

by linfar 2008-04-24 04:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Hardly anyone knows it because it's absurd on its face.  Sharecropping sucks.  I'm the children of southern sharecroppers.  Got an old family bible which has an early dagguerotype of my hardscrabble ancestors, all rawboned and Scottish looking.

Thing is, they never revolted.  You never hear of sharecropper rebellions or sharecroppers having to be "broken" like horses - taken to a woodshed and beaten within an inch of their lives until they understood in the most instinctive way that it was pointless to refuse.

Slaves did not like to be slaves and escaped whenever they could.  If they were caught they were killed or hobbled.  And their owners had every right to do it - a slave's body didn't belong to them.  Their owners could do with them what they pleased - rape them, kill them, whatever.

But I'm sure some of them were fed real nice.

by Mostly 2008-04-24 05:22PM | 0 recs
A letter that explains how most poor American came

to America..

Read this - its an eye opener.. I'm quoting the first three paragraphs here.. read the rest at the URL below.

http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/D/1601-1650/ mittelberger/servan.htm


Gottlieb Mittelberger

On the Misfortune of Indentured Servants (1754)

Both in Rotterdam and in Amsterdam the people are packed densely, like herrings so to say, in the large sea-vessels. One person receives a place of scarcely 2 feet width and 6 feet length in the bedstead, while many a ship carries four to six hundred souls; not to mention the innumerable implements, tools, provisions, water-barrels and other things which likewise occupy much space.

On account of contrary winds it takes the ships sometimes 2, 3 and 4 weeks to make the trip from Holland to.. . England. But when the wind is good, they get there in 8 days or even sooner. Everything is examined there and the custom-duties paid, whence it comes that the ships ride there 8, 10 to 14 days and even longer at anchor, till they have taken in their full cargoes. During that time every one is compelled to spend his last remaining money and to consume his little stock of provisions which had been reserved for the sea; so that most passengers, finding themselves on the ocean where they would be in greater need of them, must greatly suffer from hunger and want. Many suffer want already on the water between Holland and Old England.

When the ships have for the last time weighed their anchors near the city of Kaupp [Cowes] in Old England, the real misery begins with the long voyage. For from there the ships, unless they have good wind, must often sail 8, 9, 10 to 12 weeks before they reach Philadelphia. But even with the best wind the voyage lasts 7 weeks.

(continued at URL above)

by architek 2008-04-24 06:02PM | 0 recs
The point I am trying to make is that powerless

and poor people who came here, both slave and free, had TERRIBLE experiences. The survival rate was also very low for indentured servants, a large percentage of them, especially children died on the sea voyage and did not even make it to America, so they could not even be sold to satisfy their families debts.

As everyone knows a very large percentage of slaves died too, a very high percentage. Its less well known that the conditions of indentured servants were similar, and the numbers of them were far higher.

The coercive nature of the experiences of both of these groups was similar. Many boats arrived in the New World holding half as many people as had departed Europe or Africa. Only the strongest survived these long sea journies, often with very little food and on ships rampant with disease.

by architek 2008-04-24 07:18PM | 0 recs
Point being?

My ancestors include those indentured servants.  

That the trip over sucked (and it did) doesn't begin to suggest that it was equivalent to what the poor bastards who were shoehorned into the blackbirding ships suffered.

That indentured servants were treated like shit and indistinguishably from black slaves in the early colonies (and they were) doesn't paint the whole picture.

Indentured servants got free.  Slaves didn't.

My umpty-times great-grandfather ended up married to the widow of the farmer who held his contract, and possession of the farm in NJ.  Show me any--any--black slave who ended up in a similar situation.

Didn't happen.

They're not analogous.  The full picture of the suffering and condition isn't the same.  That there was a stretch where they suffered very similarly and might (and did) conspire to steal food or run away together--and saw each other as comrades in suffering (in the early days, at least) doesn't mean that their situations were equal, that their suffering was equal or that one's lot wasn't vastly worse.

My forebear's son inherited a farm... and his descendants (some of them) flaunt their DAR status.  The slave's son was still a slave, and so was his grandson...

by ogre 2008-04-24 09:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Point being?

There have, at times, been black freedmen who were able to find some sort of good fortune.  For the most part, they don't have descendants.

by Endymion 2008-04-24 10:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Point being?

"they don't have descendants."

I think that makes the point well enough.

You made the assertion--but it's mighty vague (Faux News vague even--some people say...).  But even so.  Notice that you sideslip to "black freedmen" who managed to find "some kind of good forture."

Which avoided acknowledging that it didn't happen to slaves.

by ogre 2008-04-25 08:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Mostly, I don't think you know your history too well. The Iish it is well documented were treated much worse than slaves in the south for several decades. They also died by the thousands and thousdands. PBS had a goos special on it: the Irish in America. And inthe north they couldn't get work. No Irish Need Apply was the order of the day. But this diary isn't about who had it worse. It is about the way we think about race and class today. It is about the way classism is playing out in this election.

by linfar 2008-04-24 06:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Being Irish-American (among other things), I know that history.  My forebears were those folk--and my grandfather told me his own personal experiences with "No Irish" signs.

And you're making more of it than it deserves.

Being Irish in early America sucked.  But the Irish, as a community, over a couple generations, had a way out.

My grandfather never once proposed that those who were black were better off.  Rather the opposite, in fact.

But he was ruthlessly honest....

by ogre 2008-04-24 09:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

And how many Irish families were ripped apart so some slavedealer could make money? Seriously, this reads like a George Fitzhugh pro-slavery pamphlet.

Oh, but the Irish sure showed their class solidarity when they burned black orphanages in the 1863 draft riot. And then they burned down the black neighborhoods in Memphis in 1866 because they wanted to keep their wharf jobs. They liked to think they were being treated like "white slaves" so they blacked up in minstrel shows and ridiculed blacks. Hey, at leas the blacks are a rung below! Business owners had a field day with Irish working class racism, pitting the two groups against each other.

It's called herrenvolk democracy, or white man's democracy. Every white ethnic group exploited it on their way into America. To get what you need, you need to become white and to do that you need to put the blacks down.

by elrod 2008-04-24 10:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Exactly.  In America, we've never allowed participation by non-Whites.  We have, in order to maintain White dominance, changed what it means to be White, so that previously non-White groups(Irish, Germans, Slavs, etc.) find themselves transformed into people who we now think of as always having been White.

by Endymion 2008-04-24 10:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

its quite clear you are a perfect example of the uneducated voter or "low information" voter that Clinton appeals to

"Then given his association and defending of people like Rev. Wright and William Ayers who hate me specifically because I am white, I think it is a joke that he blames ANYONE of racism."

ok lets see where  should I start alright with the association with REV Wright and William Ayers well the Clintons were associated with Rev Wright during the whole lewinsky affair

oh and Obama  Never defended William ayers  
and FINALLY WILLIAM AYERS does not hate white people ..HE is white

here is some Advice if you want to stop being part of the Uneducated Clinton supporter constituency DO your research first before you start spewing nonsense

by wellinformed 2008-04-25 08:35AM | 0 recs
Snooty Much?

"As if the picture were not offensive enough."

Excuse me?

Those are salt-of-the-earth Americans in that picture. What's offensive about it?

You are sounding kinda elitist, without even being aware of it.

by edmandspath 2008-04-24 04:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Snooty Much?

This atitude is why if Obama is the nominee we will lose in November.

by linfar 2008-04-24 04:54PM | 0 recs
Eh?

You are the one calling these hard-working Americans "offensive" based on their physical appearnace, not me.

Take a hard look in the mirror.

by edmandspath 2008-04-24 05:03PM | 0 recs
No we won't.

The only way we lose in November is if this primary turns into a hatefest.

by MBNYC 2008-04-24 06:03PM | 0 recs
Re: No we won't.
What, you don't hate this primary yet? (:
by Jay R 2008-04-24 11:48PM | 0 recs
Coupla points.

This:

Some residents said they were concerned that he might not take into account the concerns of whites. `If Obama gets in, its going to be a black thing and its going to be all blacks for blacks,' said Victoria Mikulski, a 63-year-old clerk in Edison park. `Everything's got to be equal.'

...is an unambiguously racist statement. That's not about class - at all.

This:

After decades of affirmative action which has promoted  AA `s over white working class candidates, these voters are wary.

...is pretty much racist, but primarily, it is ignorant and false. Black candidates have not been the beneficiaries of affirmative action, a fact you can glean from the observation that they're under-represented at all levels of government.

Yeah, maybe you need to stop writing about race. And maybe, after this appalling diary has been deleted, you won't be writing here at all anymore.

by MBNYC 2008-04-24 04:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Coupla points.

You comment is out of line for the most part, in my opinion. But what shows you that the comment is not racists is when she says, "Everything has got to be equal." So many people are so convinced that racism is the only problem in America they don't get the short end of the stick that the white sorking class has been getting for a long time. She wants an equal playing field and she doesn't think she can get it with Obama. That is not racism. That is someone weighing their life experience and saying, "I don't think it will be fair." And I have to say in her behalf, look at the comments about class so far in the campaign. They make you cringe. Would you trust the guy whose supporters are calling you white trash?

by linfar 2008-04-24 04:53PM | 0 recs
"everyone has got to be equal"

is not the problem here. The part about

If Obama gets in, its going to be a black thing and its going to be all blacks for blacks

is the problem. It's pretty easy to see for people who aren't trying to prove something. So you have a diary here that presents and defends racist thinking, all the while you deny that that's what it is. Or can you explain what "it's going to be all blacks for blacks" even means?

As to being called stuff, haha. What some Hillary followers have called me to my face should compel me to never even consider voting for her.

Yeah, you really should delete this diary. If it were my decision, I'd ban you for it on the spot.

by MBNYC 2008-04-24 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Coupla points.

She doesn't want "equality" any more than the GOP believes in "colorblindness." She wants her entitled benefits of whiteness that her older generations had forever. To her, that's "everything being equal."

by elrod 2008-04-24 10:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Coupla points.
"...she wants an equal playing field and she doesn't think she can get it with Obama..."
...because she's racist!  
For goodness sake!  It is racism.  It is bigotry.  It is hatred.  She is led to her fear by a wall in her mind, led to her fear by a deep suspicion of 'Them!'  An unexamined prejudice rampant in America, I might add.  And I would also add that you excuse her racism by denying it, another common practice.  We are wracked in this nation by the thought that introspection is a weakness we can never commit, and a push to examine our biases would be the best thing that could be done for any of us.  
You don't do that.  The thought that women are fine 'in their place', the thought that gays 'are people, sure, but, well, it's just not right', the idea of helping the homeless in the hope that they'll go away, the perception that 'those poor babies will be happier with their own kind', all of these would be ok by your lights.  And you will seethe at that assertion, but you've never looked within yourself to ask if it's true, and you probably never will.  
The ignorance here is outrageous.  People who hide their racism, even from themselves, are no less racist for it.  It's just that sometimes, they succeed at fooling folks like you, and sometimes, they get to remind their peers that it's still alright to hate, if you maintain plausible deniability.  
We're Democrats.  That means we accept people in spite of any flaw.  It doesn't mean we accept the flaws.  Now go off and grow some empathy, and maybe read a book.  Come back a better person.  We'll be here.
by Endymion 2008-04-24 11:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Coupla points.
Bullshit. She doesn't think she can get an equal playing field from a black guy. She's not talking about class equality except in your tortured rationalizations.
by Jay R 2008-04-24 11:50PM | 0 recs
Hillary and Affimative Action
After decades of affirmative action which has promoted AA's over white working class candidates, these voters are wary.

So, you are saying that Hillary will get rid of Affirmative Action programs? Can we get a statement from Hillary on her Affirmative Action policies?

The Dem's cannot win the general election without the black vote. Some of these white working class voters tend to vote for Rethug's - against their interests - because of these scary right-wing frames against 'scary black people'.

This diary has no place on a Democratic blog.

by power of truth 2008-04-25 09:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Coupla points.

And the following line

No one wrote of their plight when  thirty-five years ago, a growing AA population on the city's west side pushed whites north into Edison Park.

is equally born of an idiotic race-blaming mentality.  It's the blacks that PUSHED the whites away.  I grew up in Chicago in a blue collar neighborhood where people constantly talked about how the n***s were moving across Western Avenue. You can argue, like linfar does, that these people have very real concerns... but to argue that point without noting that these people are driven by racism and prejudice and to, instead, justify their words and actions as somehow just regular white folks talking about class is pure BS.

by dannyinla 2008-04-24 10:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

I'm glad for this post. I was a little worried at first, expecting yet another dismissal of the question of class in this election... but I'm impressed to find someone who's thinking seriously about this, and thew implications for the fall.

The Gallup numbers are interesting; even more so because they fly in the face of almost all the exit polling that's been done. With only a few exceptions - most of which underline the problem - Hillary Clinton has won voters earning less than $50,000 in every contest; she has won those with only a high school education or less, and she has usually won those who have not finished college.

Time and again, in exit polling, voters who vote on economic issues have chosen Clinton; the majority who say "[candidate] understands problems people like me face" pick Clinton, and vote for her.

I've been writing a lot about this over at my blog, and studying it because the topic of class in our society has long been an interest, and the divisions in this election have been fascinating.  So too, has been the decision to blame "racism" for the reason working class ("Blue collar" is not an entirely accurate description) voters in large numbers do not vote for Obama. While the Mikulski quote that's used here is problematic (even if the woman doesn't see herself as racist, there's a racial charge to her comments that can't be ignored), the point stands: Obama has failed to connect with working class voters, or to articulate his policy proposals (whatever they may be) in a way they can support.

And this isn't going to go away; the rest of the contests seem likely to reflect similar splits (meaning Clinton can hold out quite a while if she wins Inidana, given the likelihood that she will carry Kentucky and West Virginia strongly), and Obama has not shown ability or inclination to reverse the trend... and if he can't, the point stands - Democrats have not won when working class folks look elsewhere for someone to listen to them. And it's not clear we can in the fall.

by nycweboy1 2008-04-24 04:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

nyce--your comments are so apt and thoughtful. thank you. I truly believe we will lose in November if we don't face the ramifications of this issue and the voters who will go to mccain if Clinton is not the nominee. Not because they are racists, but because they do not feel heard, understood or wanted by Obama. And we cannot win without 'em.

by linfar 2008-04-24 04:49PM | 0 recs
Experience matters to these voters

not experience as in pedigree, but experience as in suffering, expending of effort.

If that is lacking, these voters would like to see some awareness on behalf of the candidate that said experience has its value, brings wisdom. Unfortunately, Obama frequently jokes and belittles age as a weakness. "She had some years on her. She was close to 60."

by catfish1 2008-04-24 07:54PM | 0 recs
Class divide within my own family -

and the Clinton/Obama preferences lined up exactly along those lines.

We grew up in a middle to upper-middle class community. My siblings have done well for themselves right off the bat. I however had a few setbacks.

by catfish1 2008-04-24 07:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

You keep assuming working class voters are white. Do you realize that an increasing percentage - maybe even a majority depending on how you define working class - is nonwhite? Many are African Americans and they are voting for Obama.

The problem is WHITE working class voters, not working class voters.

The Democratic Party is composed of a large coalition. Clinton represents one side of it and Obama represents another. Clinton repels educated, upper-middle income suburban Democrats every bit as much as Obama repels working class whites in Appalachia. If you can find the dream candidate that unites the two then we have a winner.

The best way to deal with this is for Obama to pick somebody like Jim Webb as VP. Webb has major national security cred. He clearly understands white working class mentalities. And he has spoken forcefully on matters of economic populism. He has serious cred among working class voters that Edwards and his widely ridiculed hair could never get.

by elrod 2008-04-24 10:41PM | 0 recs
White and Asian and Latino and

In California Hillary got more of the Asian vote than Obama.

by catfish1 2008-04-25 09:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Great post.  We never seem to remember class is a huge issue in america.

david

by giusd 2008-04-24 04:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Thank you David. It is the elephant in the middle of the room in this primary for sure.

by linfar 2008-04-24 04:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

The only elephant in the room is the GOP, and so far, not much attention is being paid to the turds he's dropping or the BS he is trumpeting through the jungle.

by edmandspath 2008-04-24 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

If class was a huge issue in America, most of the repugnant anti-Obama diaries wouldn't make it to the rec list here.

by Rumproast 2008-04-24 08:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Lin, this is another great perspective. I'm from a working class family and did not have the opportunity to go to Princeton, Harvard or Yale because I had to go out on my own and start working at 16 to stay alive.

I've educated myself by reading everything I can get my hands on and tried to have a great life in spite of the economic "handicap" I've had.

I never realized the depth of disdain for people like myself within the far left of the democratic party until this election cycle. I feel like there are those in the party that think I should feel shame for my status in life.

It astounds me that the supposed party of inclusion is trying with all it's might to foist folks like me out of that party.

Hillary and Bill get it. Hillary is not continuing this fight because she's some power-hungry bitch determined to take down the party...
just the opposite.

Hillary Clinton is fighting for the very soul of the Democratic Party. It is time that this message gets out there.

by everyvotecounts 2008-04-24 05:33PM | 0 recs
Stark divide of left

of the party from the rest has really shown itself this season.

by catfish1 2008-04-24 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Reads like a good bit of campaign lit.  Take it in to the nearest office, maybe Clinton'll give you five for it.

by Endymion 2008-04-24 11:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

I continue to believe that policies to the left are in the best interest of working class Americans, that's why I vote Democrat.  I totally disagree with the idea that the far left is against the working class.  In fact, this is the #1 lie that republicans use to dupe people into voting against their interests and I think we as democrats should be fighting against it, not embracing it.  I understand the need to keep conservative democrats in the party, but I don't think moving the whole party to the right is the best way to do that.  

by catalysis 2008-04-25 10:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

EVC, your comment is great. Hillary is fighting for the soul of the party. Thanks.

by linfar 2008-04-24 05:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism
Hillary is fighting for the [white corporate pro war wealthy 90's old school pre millennial generation DLC obliteratti] soul of the party. Ms. Clinton is a fighter all right, and I respect her for her drive and determination and glass ceiling breaking. But she is not the role model I want for my daughters (Happy Take Your Daughter to Work Day!)
NAFTA gave us all the shafta. We're a union white trash household in Wisconsin and we helped Obama win this swing state by 17 points...
Senator Clinton is fighting for herself AND following the failed strategy that lost us the last two prez elections. It's time to Move On. Thanks for listening. PS Of course we'd all vote for Hillary in the Nov. You think we want Bush's 3rd term?
 
by dawolfe 2008-04-24 07:59PM | 0 recs
Racist Screed Diary #244678

"Hillary is fighting for the soul of the party*."

(*provided you are white as a lily. Scary black people need not apply. Oh, and 9-11, 9-11!)

by edmandspath 2008-04-25 07:01AM | 0 recs
The tide is turning?

Right-o.  Command it to ebb again, O King Canute.

Woooo-wee! (shaking head)

On to victory in Stalingrad!  

by ogre 2008-04-24 09:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Over 200 white guys gave their lives that day in the service of their country.  And the whole world took their hat off to them. It is about time the Democratic Party did the same.

What is wrong with you?

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?

You think there weren't any black firefighters?  You should stop writing about race, period.  Everything that comes out of your mouth on that topic is offensive and divisive.  You were banned once for that, apparently they thought you learned your lesson, but here you are again promoting racial discord.  Your writing drips with just barely concealed resentment against black people.

I can't decide who deserves to be re-banned more, you or TexasDarlin, after she called Obama uppity in her diary earlier.

I have no idea why Jerome allows racists to fill his rec list.

by Skaje 2008-04-24 10:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

I don't know how anyone could read Ms. Mikulski's comments as anything other than the very racial ignorance that we as a party should be fighting against.

by rfahey22 2008-04-24 10:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

That's the attitude here that leads me to believe so many people aren't even Democrats.

Real Democrats would push back against such racism, a bunch of the people here just post it and say, "Look Obama can't win."

Real Democrats defend other Democrats against bullshit attacks and smears.  I and many other Obama supporters came to Edwards' defense when he was getting eaten alive by the media over his haircut.  The Clinton supporters here are happy to sit on their hands and whistle as Republicans ratchet up their racist attacks on Obama.

by Skaje 2008-04-25 12:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

And as the son of a firefighter, it would be nice if linfar got the numbers correct - 343 members of the FDNY died at the WTC.

I don't know or care how many were white.

by dannyinla 2008-04-24 10:59PM | 0 recs
by Newcomer 2008-04-24 11:39PM | 0 recs
From the other side...

I came across this post today that I thought was quite insightful and perhaps sheds an African American light on the nominating process.

by Obama Independent 2008-04-24 11:57PM | 0 recs
Breaking: Clinton calls lynching funny

Nice Job making up something about Al Sharpton, my god Linfar you're freaking retarded, either that or a lying scumbag-- you basically made up a quote from wholecloth, seriously WTF?!

by Socraticsilence 2008-04-25 02:12AM | 0 recs
Know what "classism" is?

Classism is when you play to the weaknesses of people who, through no fault of their own, do not have a good education to get elected. It's when you twist and contort yourself into something you're not to attempt to fool people into voting against their best interests.

Republicans are great at this. They put up a C student who people wanted to have a beer with twice and cleaned our clock each time.

Hillary plays the same game. The lady with all the advantages pretends to be the down home gal from Scranton, or wherever she is this week. The gal's downin' shots and beers, but the shots are Crown Royal. In other words, she's a fake, and doesn't think voters are smart enough to see through it.

Obama, on the other hand, is what he is. He's a Harvard educated intellectual, a constitutional scholar; in other words a really smart guy. He's not good at talking down to people and is more prone than most politicians to tell them the truth instead of what they'd like to hear.

We've seen what having the beer-drinkin' C student in the White House got us. Hillary would like us to believe that having someone who's maybe a little geeky would be terrible. In other words, she counts on people being stupid. Now that is classism.

by Travis Stark 2008-04-25 04:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

The class argument is really a strong one. Unfortunately for Obama, he really does come across as haughty, indifferent, and elitist. He also comes across as being more partisan toward black identity politics, than he does transcending race. The 20-years association with Wright underlines that image.

You don't have to agree with the classism argument to face the reality that Obama has a problem with working class white voters. And, you can't deny that Obama wins 90% of the black vote, based on race/identity politics.

Both of those facts are a problem for Obama in the general election. First because working class white voters comprise 52% of the general electorate. Second because black voters comprise a comparatively small percentage of the general electorate.

Doesn't matter what the reason is; the fact is that Obama doesn't win those voters. He has a problem connecting to their interests. He doesn't connect with them because he cannot comprehend their perspective, and he tells them by tone, language and gesture that he has contempt for them, that he won't represent their interests--whether their interests are race or class-based.

And, the more Obama, Axelrod, of James Clyburn of South Carolina [and Obamabots in the elitist media] try to dismiss them as racists or clods or Archie Bunkers--the more they'll retrench back into the GOP fold. You can't insult someone to get their vote; you can't intimidate or demand or shame people into voting for your candidate by calling them racists. So, Obama supporters should hope these memes from the media don't take hold, because it will only make matters worse for Obama.

Believe me, James Clyburn IS NOT helping Obama by angrily issuing defensive race arguments as he did yesterday. The message that working class white voters take from that is they are under siege. When people feel under siege, they're instinct is to dig in to protect themselves. Right about now, working class white voters are feeling betrayed by Republicans and Democrats. But Obama and Axelrod have, instead of inviting them to come back to the Dems, dismissed them as irrelevant to the Democratic Party! Really. Really. Stupid.

In the general election, if the Democratic Party loses working class white voters, the party could well lose the election.

So, Obama's got a big problem. Black voters will not carry him to the White House--even if high-income liberal voters try to help. The vast majority of voters in this country are working-class white voters. They put Reagan in office and they'll put McCain in office in November because they don't trust Barack Obama.

by Tennessean 2008-04-25 04:26AM | 0 recs
You are wrong.

demographically speaking, more people are college grads nowadays.

and obama gets the highly educated, even the republicans.

by RisingTide 2008-04-25 07:16AM | 0 recs
Re: You are wrong.

24% are college grads, according to the census. The number of college grads may be growing, but we are a distinct minority.

by souvarine 2008-04-25 07:40AM | 0 recs
I stand corrected.

Recced.

by RisingTide 2008-04-25 08:22AM | 0 recs
Stuck in a rut

Linfar,

You sound like a broken record.

Your world view is a charicature.

"When death reigned out of the sky on 9/11, 2001, and stock brokers and financial analysis's were running downstairs out of the burning towers, firemen were running  upstairs to rescue the wounded and the helpless. Over 200 white guys gave their lives that day in the service of their country."

The men and women runnning down represented the united nations. All nations, all backgrounds, white, black, latino, asian, native Americans, straight, gay, rich parents, poor parents.
The men and women running up also represented the UN, white, black, latino, asian, native Americans, straight, gay, rich parents, poor parents.

The way you divide the world into small subgroups is sad !!!!! All the people that died in the WTC-towers were HUMAN.

by hebi 2008-04-25 04:39AM | 0 recs
How long before these diaries

Devolve into a Klan rally?

It seems that the level of discourse that some of Hillary's supporters are willing to defend and endorse declines with every passing day.

Honestly, I don't see the voters who cast their ballots for Obama or Hillary as per se racist, sexist, or classist, but the writers and recommenders of these diaries?  Absolutely.  The entire case for Hillary has become "she's not uppity," which is perhaps the most transparently racist argument one could possible make.

Otherwise, these gems:

It isn't only the infamous `bitter' remarks made to an affluent, audience in San Francisco where he characterizes this constituency

Don't forget everyone: he said it in San Francisco!  Obama's too friendly to fags - but Hillary will protect marriage from gay interlopers as well as her husband did.

After decades of affirmative action which has promoted AA's over white working class candidates, these voters are wary.

The fuck?

And also:

When death reigned out of the sky on 9/11, 2001, and stock brokers and financial analysis's were running downstairs out of the burning towers, firemen were running  upstairs to rescue the wounded and the helpless. Over 200 white guys gave their lives that day in the service of their country.  And the whole world took their hat off to them. It is about time the Democratic Party did the same.

Again, the fuck?  What is wrong with these people, all of whom recommended this diary:

DaveOinSF
Pacific John
David Kowalski
susanhu
adrienne4dean
JFK464
Gabriele Droz
Caro
Tennessean
atdleft
TeresaInPa
LindaSFNM
splashy
searchforsolidarity
1986dude
1950democrat
NewHampster
Beltway Dem
Norwegian Chef
psychodrew
indus
grassrootsorganizer
JoeySky18
toddy
linc
catfish1
moevaughn
macmcd
Rumarhazzit
Nobama
dot48
qeaz
tj in tx
anya109
Little Otter
mbolack
DemAC
Cassyma
ProudMilitaryMom
LA
bird5
everyvotecounts
louisprandtl
CoyoteCreek
4justice

You should be fucking ashamed.

by Drew 2008-04-25 06:33AM | 0 recs
Re: How long before these diaries

In all fairness, most of those people probably rec'ed it out of blind loyalty to Hillary, not because they are racists or agree with the racist sentiments contained within. They simply rec any and everything they are told to. The diarist, of course, is in fact a racist, as has been demonstrated multiple times here.

by Lost Thought 2008-04-25 07:03AM | 0 recs
There's an unreccomend button.

At this point, I'm not inclined to be generous to people who have repeatedly recommended diaries that have called Obama "uppity" - both implicity and explicitly.

by Drew 2008-04-25 07:09AM | 0 recs
They are Hillary's sheep.

Lin Farley is a Hillary supporter, word went out to the HillaryIs44 mob to rec this diary up, so they recced it up.

I suspect that only a few of them bothered to read it, and fewer still understood it.

by tbetz 2008-04-25 07:07AM | 0 recs
Re: How long before these diaries

When death reigned out of the sky on 9/11, 2001, and stock brokers and financial analysis's were running downstairs out of the burning towers, firemen were running  upstairs to rescue the wounded and the helpless. Over 200 white guys gave their lives that day in the service of their country.  And the whole world took their hat off to them. It is about time the Democratic Party did the same.

That is definitely one of the dumber things I've read in my life.

by TooFolkGR 2008-04-25 07:07AM | 0 recs
No Drew YOU should be ashamed.

Read and think, that is, if you know how.

by dot48 2008-04-25 09:46AM | 0 recs
Re: No Drew YOU should be ashamed.

No, this diary is really just a bunch of really refined, well honed race baiting. Republican strategists are proud that this young protege is carrying on the tradition.

by Lost Thought 2008-04-25 10:37AM | 0 recs
It's almost generous

To call it refined.

by Drew 2008-04-25 10:54AM | 0 recs
One of My Favorite Things About Obama...

...is that he's considerably more intelligent than most of his supporters... and 100% of his internet supporters.  They are mostly petty and dismissive towards any demographic that doesn't support Obama.  Obama's biggest faux pas in this area has been his "bitter" comments, which were more "poorly worded," than "inaccurate."

But he'll turn that around once he has the nomination.  He's going to be able to find the issues that are most important to our voters leading up to November.

by TooFolkGR 2008-04-25 07:03AM | 0 recs
there are a few of his 'internet' supporters

who are smarter than he is.

I think they live over at EFF.

by RisingTide 2008-04-25 07:14AM | 0 recs
New Electorate Realignment

... your arguments look to the past, just like the Maginot Line.

Please, spare me!

by RisingTide 2008-04-25 07:14AM | 0 recs
Admin, please

pull this racist diary and ban its author. There are several lines that have been crossed here, and this diarist has a track record from her previous ban of crossing those lines.

And to everyone who recommended it, for shame.

by MBNYC 2008-04-25 07:49AM | 0 recs
Obama elitism problem w _black_ working class

See his unsuccesful 2000 Congressonal campaign. It's not a race thing, it's a talking down thing, a Professor Obama thing.

by fairleft 2008-04-25 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama elitism problem w _black_ working class

ok you cannot have it both ways either his only Base is black working class or his elitism is preventing him from getting the working class vote pick one

and then would you care to comment on the other candidates elitism while your at it ?

geez you know what I am tired of pulling punches with Hillary supporters in a effort to unify the party but you know what screw it  I am going to be just as ignant as dey R

SIlly Season is in full swing !!!!!

by wellinformed 2008-04-25 09:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama elitism problem w _black_ working class

Bobby Rush was all over the 'elite' charge against Obama in the 2000 primary campaign (Obama was sponsored by the Dem/Daley establishment to take out Rush). It was a very successful tactic for Rush, as it is for Clinton and will/would be for McCain.

I suggest Obama and his supporters need to deal with the problem. He needs to work on really getting in touch and getting off his high rhetorical horse.

by fairleft 2008-04-25 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

I agree reading some of these comments is making me physically ill  

I don't know if its  the blantant racsism of it

or the fact the not 1 single Hillary supporter condemned it not 1 ... I am new to this site and I had a lot of respect for people even if the had opposing views but this not only offends me as a African american but you also Hillary would be offended if she read this  she is not a racist
if you were all TRUE supporters of her you would know that  Linfar should be Banned

by wellinformed 2008-04-25 09:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism

Care to explain how Carter lost the "Reagan Democrats" before there was any such thing as "Reagan Democrats"? Also, I seem to remember that double-digit inflation, 20%+ mortgage rates, and that little dust-up with the hostages in Iran had something to do with Carter's failed bid for a second term.

by Alice in Florida 2008-04-25 09:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Classism
the hostages were released on Reagan's inauguration day.
by power of truth 2008-04-25 09:08AM | 0 recs
Ridiculous
This diary is just absurd. I can't believe this diary is actually recommended.

Working class whites and blacks have the same issues. Trying to pit one against the other is a right-wing frame and has no place on a Democratic blog.

Obama had no problem with all of those white people in the Midwest and Western states.

by power of truth 2008-04-25 09:07AM | 0 recs
"Uneducated, rednecked white trash"

Did Al Sharpton really call Clinton supporters rednecked white trash?

Find out here:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/25/4272 4/5848

by jdusek 2008-04-25 09:32AM | 0 recs

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