My grandfather clings to his guns

My father's father raised eight children in rural Montana on a carpenters' wage- which is not much in a state that really hasn't had a housing boom since before WWII. As a result of this rather modest upbringing, everyone in my family, including my father, has always lived off of the land. We cling to our guns. I have inherited two.

We have never been particularly political, we have never been particularly educated in the common sense, but we are smart people and we have a love for life. I can tell you that my gun loving family has never been bitter or disillusioned enough to be run into a political idea by the republican right. We cling to our guns because we need to eat.

I grew up middle class or so I assume. When I was very young, my father worked the night shift at a lumber mill at the other end of the county and my mother worked for the administrative side of things at the county hospital. They were very young too. Despite what you might think about these occupations, I never had to want, but a great many around me did. Almost all my uncles and aunts had large Montana families. None of us were ever particularly money-rich when I was a child, but we had another sort of wealth- we had ourselves, our family and our community. That community included our local churches. My grandfather the carpenter helped build several of those local churches. My family, my poor destitute family that has had to rely on wild game for sustenance in the past, clings to its church. Not because we are bitter about our economic lot in life, but because we value community, we value the things that make life worth while.

There was a time, when Canadian lumber put the mill my father worked for out of business. HE DID NOT become bitter and begin to hate immigrants/trade nor did he begin to cling to his guns. You see, my father had always clung to his guns- he knew he might need them one day. Suffice it to say, I ate a lot of elk that winter!

So, no Mr. Obama. My family does not cling to our guns and religion because we are bitter about economic circumstances. We do not vilify others for their lot in life- my grandfather the carpenter and deacon taught us better. We have never been bitter. We have been money-poor, but we have always found a way and I take offense that you would suggest otherwise.

Tags: Being Bitter, God, guns, obama (all tags)

Comments

109 Comments

I am not bitter
I am full of hope and desire for change. Please don't pigeonhole me and mine.
by linc 2008-04-11 03:30PM | 0 recs
I agree

It is the height of idiocy to ascribe the "gun-clinginess" and the "religion-clinginess" etc. to loss of jobs.  

by SevenStrings 2008-04-11 03:53PM | 0 recs
Those comments
as well intentioned as I think they were, just bothered me in so many ways. It just says the candidate is so above and beyond what people think is their own reality that he will never be able to reach them.
by linc 2008-04-11 03:56PM | 0 recs
Obama's comments
not yours! Sorry for the lack of clarity.
by linc 2008-04-11 03:56PM | 0 recs
If they are well intentioned...

then they are also elitist.  Because it would mean that Sen. Obama knows why people behave and act in certain ways.    If only I could create jobs for those ignorant people in PA, they would stop clinging to their guns, and their religion, and they would stop hating immigrants That is what it says, if you think they are well intentioned remarks.  It is also why the elitist democrats (Kerry, Dukakis etc.) have been losing those votes for generations.

I prefer to think of them as idiotic.  That is a more charitable explanation.

by SevenStrings 2008-04-11 04:03PM | 0 recs
Re: If they are well intentioned...

I find it interesting that you and others who think Obama's comments are elitist often insert much more offensive comments when you paraphrase his remarks. You say that rural people are "ignorant," but Obama never said that. Elsewhere on MyDD people have used words like "stupid" and "hicks", but Obama never said these things either. To my ears, you sound much more elitist than Obama on this one.

by jdusek 2008-04-11 04:28PM | 0 recs
oh come one

no one here is stupid, we can figure out what he meant and what he meant was that they ignorantly cling to racism guns and religion because they have nothing else.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2008-04-11 04:40PM | 0 recs
for the record...

I prefer to think of his remarks as being idiotic, rather than elitist!!!

And I do not say rural people are ignorant!!!

by SevenStrings 2008-04-11 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: for the record...

Ah, but you did say that rural people are ignorant. Look, it's right up there in your post. Those are your words, not Obama's.

You can't say Obama is looking down his nose at rural America and in the same breath insult the intelligence of those people.

by jdusek 2008-04-11 09:14PM | 0 recs
Re: for the record...

Maybe you should take some english lessons...

But, in the meantime, here is my comment once again, with the relevant sections boldfaced to make it easy for your comprehension


If they are well intentioned then they are also elitist.  Because it would mean that Sen. Obama knows why people behave and act in certain ways.    If only I could create jobs for those ignorant people in PA, they would stop clinging to their guns, and their religion, and they would stop hating immigrants That is what it says, if you think they are well intentioned remarks.  It is also why the elitist democrats (Kerry, Dukakis etc.) have been losing those votes for generations.

I prefer to think of them as idiotic.  That is a more charitable explanation.

Sen. Obama has called those PA residents ignorant IF you treat his remarks as elitist.

I prefer to think of it as idiotic, and not elitist.  I hope you think of it as idiotic too.

by SevenStrings 2008-04-11 09:53PM | 0 recs
Re: for the record...

Nice try, but your "if" statements have nothing to do with your description of these people as ignorant.

To your point, you could have written, "IF only I could create jobs for those people in PA, they would stop clinging to their guns and their religion." But you purposefully inserted the word "ignorant," which was nowhere to be found in Obama's remarks. You chose to assign this label to the people of Pennsylvania, and whether Obama's remarks were well intentioned or elitist has no bearing on the matter.

I get that you think Obama's comments were "idiotic." I also get that you feel fit to accuse me of being stupid by suggesting I need English lessons and have poor reading comprehension skills.

So to recap, you think rural Pennsylvanians are ignorant, Obama is an idiot and I can't read. Well done.

by jdusek 2008-04-11 10:33PM | 0 recs
Ah

those that cannot read are now handing out lessons on how to write.

Funny!!

by SevenStrings 2008-04-12 06:23AM | 0 recs
I think the remarks are

contemptuous no matter how patronizing a tone he uses.  

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2008-04-11 04:38PM | 0 recs
Re: I think the remarks are

I hear you, but you are hardly a dispassionate observer.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 04:55PM | 0 recs
And I suppose you are 100%

dispassionate

by SevenStrings 2008-04-11 08:35PM | 0 recs
Re: I am not bitter

Well said, linc. I lived in Montana for a time as you know and I met many, many people like your family. Montana Gov. Schweitzer isn't too happy with Obama right now either. thanks for this diary. Rec'ced!

by linfar 2008-04-11 03:57PM | 0 recs
Schweitzer gets it
thats why he, as liberal as he is, gets elected in Montana. He stands up for people like my family that live off the land and he talks our language. He is able to translate environmentalism into radical conservationism that protects our game and the space game needs to thrive.

Tester is the same way and his upbringing probably wasn't too dissimilar from my fathers...
by linc 2008-04-11 04:01PM | 0 recs
you know who else was like that?

Wellstone.  Republicans voted for him just like they  vote for Clinton in NY, not because they always agree but because he did a good job for their state and because they liked him and knew that he liked and respected them.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2008-04-11 04:56PM | 0 recs
Don't you dare.

Obama is a clear spiritual successor to Wellstone, so don't you dare suggest that Clinton is the only one in this race that embodies his message.

Wellstone was exceedingly liberal, moreso than Clinton or Obama, but he was always honest, and he never shied away from telling uncomfortable truths or microtargeting his audiences.

On his first day in the Senate, Obama sat down at his desk, and opened it.  As is the wont of the Senators before him, they had carved their names into the desk.  The senator that used the desk last was Paul Wellstone.  If that's not a little bump from fate, I don't know what is.

Minnesotans went overwhelmingly for Obama. We know who the one is who will continue Paul's work.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 05:22PM | 0 recs
It sounds as if you were very lucky...

to come from such a good family.

by CoyoteCreek 2008-04-11 04:03PM | 0 recs
I would say so
but I think a lot of us would be surprised at how many lucky, lower-income folks there are out there- which is partly the point of this diary.
by linc 2008-04-11 04:07PM | 0 recs
Yes. I come from one of those

families myself.  And I thank my lucky stars every day.

by CoyoteCreek 2008-04-11 04:10PM | 0 recs
So well written, Thank you linc

I personally hate guns but this diary was not about guns.  It is about good people living real lives in a supportive community.

Thank you

by NewHampster 2008-04-11 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: So well written, Thank you linc
Thank you!
by linc 2008-04-11 05:39PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

I think Obama's point was about wedge issue politics in small towns.  The way I understood it, it wasn't referencing people that own guns but rather people being baited with wedge issues like "The Democrats are going to take your guns, open our borders, ban religion, and send your jobs overseas."  His point was that the Democrats haven't been doing a good job approaching voters, and he specifically said that he wasn't referencing all communities.  Like I said before in another thread, I think we're being naive if we pretend that communities like Obama described don't exist.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-04-11 03:36PM | 0 recs
I think you are right
my point is that we are not so stupid to be 'baited' and it is offensive for people to suggest that just because we are or have been poor means that we are somehow more susceptible to the wiles of the GOP.
by linc 2008-04-11 03:38PM | 0 recs
Re: I think you are right

Look, I live in a community similar to what Obama is talking about.  We're a largely Republican agricultural town in California, and there is literally a sign a block from my house that says simply "CLOSE OUR BORDERS" along with the Republican candidate for city council.  Now, is this candidate going to be able to do ANYTHING to actually close our borders?  No.  Will he get votes for baiting people with that statement?  Hell yes.

I think that was Obama's point about immigration and the other issues he addressed as well.

by thatpurplestuff 2008-04-11 03:46PM | 0 recs
OK
continue with the generalizations, but really, how do you expect to win over these voters with this kind of elitist bs?
by linc 2008-04-11 03:53PM | 0 recs
Re: OK

I wouldn't call it elitist bs, but I do agree it was bad politics.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 04:56PM | 0 recs
You said it yourself

These small town folks aren't stupid.  Look at the last part of the quote:

I think what you'll find is, is that people of every background -- there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you'll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I'd be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you're doing what you're doing.

He's going to go tell them the truth.  He's not going to talk down to them.  He's going to give his A-game instead of what most Democrats do, which is write off the deep red areas as unwinnable... self-fulfilling prophesy.

It's amazing that people aren't looking at the entirety of the quote.  It isn't saying what people think it's saying.

by Dracomicron 2008-04-11 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: I think you are right

except for the fact that it's been proven over and over again that poor whites ARE more susceptible to GOP-style culture warrior rhetoric, and by even posting this diary you're joining in and proving the point.

by amiches 2008-04-11 03:57PM | 0 recs
Thanks for not reading the diary
and who said my family is white?
by linc 2008-04-11 04:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Thanks for not reading the diary

You said that it's wrong to assume poor rural whites are more susceptible to culture war rhetoric, despite 30 years of electoral and polling evidence that says, universally, otherwise.

I don't care what color you are, but you're using the same tired GOP rhetoric, so you're an example of how their strategy works. Obama was stating the truth.

by amiches 2008-04-11 04:07PM | 0 recs
really?

I think you just made an incredibly ignorant statement about poor white people.

Let's see, imagine Clinton said something similar about poor inner city black people.  How do you think that would go over?

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2008-04-11 05:03PM | 0 recs
Thank you!
My god some of the comments round here are so mind boggling! Coming from 'progressives' to boot.
by linc 2008-04-11 05:05PM | 0 recs
You are very good

at discerning what Sen. Obama's point must have been.  Or what it should have been.

I thought it was just idiotic!!

by SevenStrings 2008-04-11 03:55PM | 0 recs
Re: You are very good

Why are we wasting time on this?

Wouldn't this be better spent on solving Darfur?

by freedom78 2008-04-11 04:10PM | 0 recs
Re: You are very good

Please see my diary from today
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/12/0924 /00749

And from yesterday
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/11/1293 2/3810

And wait for the future ones...

by SevenStrings 2008-04-11 08:12PM | 0 recs
Too bad Clinton and Obama both

pledged to grab their guns in the Nevada debate, and Clinton just re-iterated it in her "crime' plan.

by benmasel 2008-04-11 05:02PM | 0 recs
baloney

neither said they would grab their guns and that is hardly the point here.  The point is Obama's contempt for people who are not like him.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2008-04-11 05:08PM | 0 recs
Assault Weapons Ban

From Hillary Sets Goal Of Cutting Murder Rate In Half

Renew the Assault Weapons Ban to take the most dangerous categories of firearms and magazines off the streets.

by benmasel 2008-04-11 05:43PM | 0 recs
I have never know a single Montanan
to use an assault weapon to hunt.
by linc 2008-04-11 05:50PM | 0 recs
Do you think the AWB would pass

on the Montana ballot?

In 1998, 76% of Wisconsin voters approved an amendment to the State Constitution clarifying Keep and Bear as an individual right. the vmeasure carried everfy one of our 72 Counties, 63% in Milwaukee, giving lie to the gungrabbers' assertion that urban folks support hoplophobia.

Article I, Section 25. The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose

The 2nd Amendment's not just about hunting.

by benmasel 2008-04-11 07:01PM | 0 recs
I don't think it would ever get to a ballot issue
I don't think it would pass however, because if I remember correctly, right to bear arms is already a part of the Montana constitution which requires super majorities or conventions to pass amendments.
by linc 2008-04-11 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

It's absurd to claim that small town voters are not more anti-immigrant than other voters.  Just read the polls.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 03:36PM | 0 recs
Wow.
I don't even know what to say to that. Could you find a more sweeping generalization based on 'the polls?'
by linc 2008-04-11 03:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Wow.

It's incredibly hard for immigrants, or the children of immigrants, to be anti immigrant. Therfore, places with large amounts of immigrants and their children (ie large cities) are going to have less anti immigration sentiment. Right?

by BlacknBlue 2008-04-11 03:43PM | 0 recs
Oh god
please, keep it up. Let me know- please tell me how everything can be explained by generalizations and that those generalizations are just true and thats it. It makes life so much easier, doesn't it?
by linc 2008-04-11 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh god

You're being purposefully obtuse, of course, but the kind of things Obama's saying are objectively true. Of course not everyone in every small town clings to wedge issues, but a lot (maybe most) do.

by amiches 2008-04-11 03:59PM | 0 recs
Your attitude
is why those people Obama was describe will not support him. You exemplify know-it-all elitism.
by linc 2008-04-11 04:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Your attitude

Again, purposefully obtuse. What I and others are saying is empirically (that means that it can be observed) and objectively (that means that in the aggregate, it's not biased) true - that there are many voters in rural white enclaves that buy the GOP culture warrior bullshit. That's why we haven't won the Deep South since LBJ.

I cannot believe this needs to be rehashed on a Democratic blog.

by amiches 2008-04-11 04:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Your attitude

empirically (that means that it can be observed) and objectively (that means that in the aggregate [....] there are many voters in rural white enclaves that buy the GOP culture warrior bullshit. That's why we haven't won the Deep South since LBJ.

Carter was Gov of Georgia, Clinton of Arkansas, Gore 's family was big in TN. They all did pretty well in Washington. Actually they're the ONLY Dems who did well there in 60 years. Must be a few southerners who voted for them.

For convenience, we talk about certain people 'drinking the koolaid' or 'buying the Obama change bullshit' etc. But we're just guessing, based on  actions we can observe: how they act and talk.

Remember what Dean said in 04 that got him in a lot of trouble: something about winning back the guys with, er, flags on their pickup trucks. I kind of thought that had something to do with us winning congress in 06.

Anyway, wasn't Obama talkng about northern rural states this time?

by 1950democrat 2008-04-11 06:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Wow.

This is an empirical observation.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 03:47PM | 0 recs
BWAHAHA!

When I hear people in Chicago tell people who look Latino to go back to Mexico I'll have to remember what you said.

by LatinoVoter 2008-04-11 03:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Wow.

Polls tell you about groups of people.  Of course there are plenty of people in those groups who are not like most people in the group.

Try this: Women are more pro-Clinton than pro-Obama. That's what polls show.

Agree? I'm sure you do, although you and I know that there are plenty of women who are for Obama.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 03:47PM | 0 recs
Great
you sure got me there. Unfortunately, your argument isn't going to get us anywhere when you try to explain to rural, gun loving church goers that they are just bitter- they wouldn't do any of those things if they had a little money and could just get rid of their bitterness.
by linc 2008-04-11 03:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Great

You're twisting his words. Obama belongs to a Church (as you well know). He isn't bashing church goers. He's simply pointing out that many voters place god and their love of guns above IMPORTANT things. Like health care, education, etc. You know, the things your preferred candidate and Obama fight for.

by BlacknBlue 2008-04-11 03:57PM | 0 recs
Oh so now Obama sets values for us?
You have got to be kidding!
by linc 2008-04-11 04:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh so now Obama sets values for us?

Are you defending the xenophobic gun nuts Obama's describing?

by BlacknBlue 2008-04-11 04:07PM | 0 recs
Wow
thanks for proving my point. Good bye now.
by linc 2008-04-11 04:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Wow

The comments were not politically smart.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 04:43PM | 0 recs
So just like O'God

You tell us what is Important.

Maybe to some, their guns and religion is more important than anything you'd understand.

by NewHampster 2008-04-11 05:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Great

If you truly realize that you're wrong, I'd like to see you apologize for accusing Sen. Obama of saying something that he didn't say; namely, that ALL small town, economically depressed voters hold certain beliefs.

by amiches 2008-04-11 04:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Great

Still waiting on this apology, linc.

by amiches 2008-04-11 04:49PM | 0 recs
You should probably get over it
If you didn't notice, I was being facetious in the comment upthread. I will apologize to Mr. Obama as soon as he apologizes to me and mine for making such broad and classist generalizations about those like us.
by linc 2008-04-11 04:52PM | 0 recs
Re: You should probably get over it

So, just to make entirely clear, you're saying that you believe Senator Obama's comments were directed at ALL rural poor white voters? Is that right?

Can you point to somewhere that he actually says any such thing?

by amiches 2008-04-11 04:54PM | 0 recs
I have to be done with you now
but maybe you should ask the perfect Obama to clarify exactly what HE meant by those remarks.
by linc 2008-04-11 04:55PM | 0 recs
Re: I have to be done with you now

Well, no, you're the one making an accusation, so it's up to you to explain what your basis is for making it. If Obama said "all rural white poor voters" grasp wedge issues, then I'll denounce and reject that.

Prove your accusation, and I'll denounce and reject the comment. Deal?

by amiches 2008-04-11 04:57PM | 0 recs
The whole world is watching

they wouldn't do any of those things if they had a little money and could just get rid of their bitterness.

Hm. That comment sort of sounds like Obama's famous Post-Wright speech.

Obama seems to get in trouble for saying something keyed to one group -- which gets quoted more widely than he intended.

Iirc, Bill Clinton had a similar divided family upbringing, learning to speak different emotional languages to different people. He got accused of lying and pandering, but I don't recall him insulting or offending any group PUBLICALLY.

It can be a very useful trait for a diplomat, eg Bill Clinton. But Bill Clinton was ready for prime time before he sought prime time.

by 1950democrat 2008-04-11 06:46PM | 0 recs
Which polls are you talking about ?

Can you send us a link ?

by SevenStrings 2008-04-11 03:58PM | 0 recs
No kidding
I would love to see that poll- 'Breaking: all rural people are apparently bigots'.
by linc 2008-04-11 04:24PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

Very good diary!

by Hunky 2008-04-11 04:02PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

Ahem!.  According to his wife, he suppose to be the only one who has the chance to unify the country.

But he described to the affluent Californians how the true blue Pennsylvanians are bitter and with no way out cling to their gun and religious belief.  This a statement that hold Pennsylvanians with contempt.  

This is a statement that shows he is not connect with the true blue working class and insensitive to their feelings.

by JoeySky18 2008-04-11 04:11PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

Barack Obama is too black.
Barack Obama is not black enough.

Barack Obama is a Muslim.
Barack Obama is a radical black activist Christian.
Barack Obama belittles religion.

Barack Obama is lucky to be black.
Barack Obama can't win outside the black states.

Barack Obama can't win because he's not patriotic enough.
Barack Obama's "USA" chanting crowd is a cult.

CNN, MSNBC, FOX, Politico, ABC, CBS (I forgot they existed until the Bosnia story) - can you stop spinning long enough to tell me clearly which awful person Barack Obama is?  Can you make up your mind which thing about Barack Obama we're supposed to be scared of?

by Cristalgirl 2008-04-11 04:14PM | 0 recs
Your nuts
If you are talking to me, which I assume you are since this is my diary, but on a completely unrelated topic to your bombast- - I don't believe any of those things that you just posted about Obama.
Do you have anything about the diary to say, or are you just spamming?
by linc 2008-04-11 04:20PM | 0 recs
Because....

Sorry, but this is just too tempting:

"Barack Obama is too black.
Barack Obama is not black enough."

Because Obama thought he was not black enough, he tried too hard to be black, choosing an 'African Theology' church, and staying in it too long. He let this personal identity crisis interfere with his judgement far too long.

"Barack Obama is a Muslim.
Barack Obama is a radical black activist Christian.
Barack Obama belittles religion."

Raised as agnostic in a partially-Muslim environment, Obama did not take any religion seriously till, shopping for a Black church to increase his credibility for his activism, he was exposed to 'African Theology' by Wright, who iirc also had Muslim influences. Obama still does not take it seriously enough to know what is in his pastor's sermons.

"Barack Obama is lucky to be black.
Barack Obama can't win outside the black states."

Obama's color got him support from latte liberals, but there are not enough ll's to win the non-Black states for him.

"Barack Obama can't win because he's not patriotic enough.
Barack Obama's "USA" chanting crowd is a cult."

Obama's insensitivity to patriotism appearances has damaged him, so his chanting crowd has recently taken up 'USA' as damage control.

by 1950democrat 2008-04-11 07:51PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

Good diary- gets to the point. There is no spin for this- the man has no respect for working folk.

by ProudMilitaryMom 2008-04-11 04:21PM | 0 recs
Thank you!
and I cannot express how much I agree with you. Aside from my personal feelings on the matter, this sort of commentary is definitely not good for the democratic party or our message.
by linc 2008-04-11 04:50PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

linc, I think a lot of people who support Obama get racism. They do not get classism. They cannot understand that Obama engaged in sterotypes that were demeaning and insulting. I read the hurt and the anger in your diary. He has insulted a whole class of people but lots of white and black people just don't get it. They never had to hunt for food because it was necessary to keep a family fed, they do not worry about being out of a job, they did not grow up in a culture where guns are like family herlooms handed down through generations. You wrote heartfelt diary about a kind of prejudice that is just as insidious as racism and just as destructive. Don't stop writing. OK?  

by linfar 2008-04-11 04:23PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

I'm an Obama supporter. My grandfather actually hunted for food when he lived in 1930's in Alabama. However, people who cling to guns as some cause celebre when there's an unjust war going on, people going hungry, jobs being lost...well, they have screwed up priorities. Someone needs to tell it like it is.

by BlacknBlue 2008-04-11 04:27PM | 0 recs
Yep, thats pretty much it
I found Obama's remarks hurtful above all else and it does make me angry. I think he should understand and I think his supporters should also understand, but he doesn't and many of them don't or won't. Thank you for your kind words and good work.

I'll make you a deal- you don't stop writing and I won't either ;)
by linc 2008-04-11 04:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Yep, thats pretty much it

Deal :):)

by linfar 2008-04-11 05:09PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

Is it racist to say that black people are typically Democrats, although there are some Republicans? No - it's verifiable truth.

Is it classist, or otherwise offensive, to say that rural white voters are typically consumed by culture war wedge issues, although there are some that are not? Again, no - it's verifiable truth.

Put away the outrage. You look pathetic.

by amiches 2008-04-11 04:51PM | 0 recs
You look consumed by this issue
why do you insist on defending generalizations of groups of people?
by linc 2008-04-11 04:54PM | 0 recs
Re: You look consumed by this issue

True or false: African Americans typically vote Democratic.

True or false, Mr./Ms. Perpetually Obtuse?

by amiches 2008-04-11 04:58PM | 0 recs
Re: You look consumed by this issue

Now that's a wee bit silly.  This is NORMAL political analysis, not to mention normal sociology and political science.  Analysts compare groups of people all the time. You've done it yourself!

Comparing groups most certainly does not mean that you think 100% of group A think one way and 100% of another group think another.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 04:58PM | 0 recs
verifiable

Voter registration IS verifiable -- a fact that can be checked.

"consumed by" is not verifiable one way or another -- it's just someone's opinion about someone else's opinion, or rather feeling.

by 1950democrat 2008-04-11 06:10PM | 0 recs
Re: verifiable

Come on.

Polling after the 2004 election showed "values" as the number one determinant of people's votes. "Values" is code for the kind of wedge issues the Republicans have used successfully since Nixon.

I get a little bit of comfort knowing that you guys are just fighting for your candidate, and that your obtuseness isn't real. Just a little bit of comfort, though.

by amiches 2008-04-11 06:31PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

You nailed it! Most of us Obama supporters are wealthy fatcats who actually become physically ill at the sight of working-class people.

Seriously, all those pansy-ass volvo-driving latte-sippers in Idaho, Utah, Colorado and the rest of the red states Obama won are just too dang rich and lazy to know what it's really like to struggle keeping their families fed.

Hell, I heard that a bunch of these capitalist pigs even donated $96 to his campaign!!!

I'm so glad we're having this serious talk about our fellow Democrats without engaging in any facile  generalizations!

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 04:56PM | 0 recs
While I really like the sass of your comment
I have to ask, when was the last time you made it to Denver, Salt Lake or Boise?
by linc 2008-04-11 05:00PM | 0 recs
Re: While I really like the sass of your comment

Ah, I see...the people of those states actually don't like Obama, and he really only carried an urban center or two. Those rotten wealthy elites have even infiltrated our beloved American West!

Here's a map of the Idaho primary results. I don't know the elites did it, but they managed to carry every single county for Obama except one! Here's Colorado.  Wisconsin.  Utah.

Want more? He sure wins a ton of counties for a guy who can only win in state capitals and college towns where the elites hang out.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 05:11PM | 0 recs
I didn't say any of that
I asked a question that you didn't answer, but thanks for the info- it is very interesting.
by linc 2008-04-11 05:14PM | 0 recs
Re: I didn't say any of that

I don't need to have gone there; I understood why you were asking, which is why I provided the maps.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 05:19PM | 0 recs
Re: While I really like the sass of your comment

Johnny, he won caucuses--very, very small % of people. Important not to forget that.

by linfar 2008-04-11 05:27PM | 0 recs
caucuses in GOP counties

Might look up Elko(sp?) Nevada. A news story said Obama won in northern, rural Nevada caucuses -- where there were hardly any Democrats at all, so it was easy to pack the caucuses (particularly if some GOPS had time for "Democrat for a Day").

by 1950democrat 2008-04-11 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: While I really like the sass of your comment

So causes are for wealthy elites?

I already posted Wisconsin. Here's Virginia He didn't just capture NoVa. I already know what some people would say if I argued Maryland, South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi and Louisiana. I already know how this works: nothing Obama does is ever legitimate. There's always some political prestidigitation to explain away every  victory. I see the latest is that Obama's the candidate of rich people.

I find it ironic that you'd state how we Obama supporters don't "get" classism. Yet by doing so, you're assume your own gross caricature of us to be fact. Have you considered that maybe you don't "get" Obama's supporters?

They never had to hunt for food because it was necessary to keep a family fed, they do not worry about being out of a job, they did not grow up in a culture where guns are like family herlooms handed down through generations.

This is really what you think? Only Clinton's supporters struggle to get by? Obama is just some kind of faddish amusement for us idle rich? I really hope that at some point, you realize what a demeaning slap in the face that is to us.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: While I really like the sass of your comment

unfortunate typo: should've been caucuses in the first sentence.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-11 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: While I really like the sass of your comment

The funniest part is about the heirlooms. This place is really, really going around the bend.

by amiches 2008-04-11 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

Aw, Jeez. What he said wasn't new. Sociologist types are always saying that type of thing. He clearly didn't say all people who love guns or who are religious, etc are doing it as a crutch, just that some people use those things as a crutch when times are bad. It's very true and should make people realize he does understand how they are feeling. And it would if politicians and Fox-like news outlets didn't move in for the kill. Obama is a religious man himself and I doubt he considers it his crutch or a sign of his bitterness. All I can say is that this political season is getting nuts and some people will stop at nothing to twist words. I have zero respect for the people who trump this up into a negative thing against Obama.

by Becky G 2008-04-11 04:59PM | 0 recs
Because sociologists and the like say it?
Some how makes it OK? For a long time, science said a lot of things about race and gender that now make all of our skin crawl, does that make it OK?
by linc 2008-04-11 05:02PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

I think it's perfectly fair to scrutinize every word Obama says just as closely as every one of Hillary's remarks is analyzed.

It's high time, in fact.

***A

by adrienne4dean 2008-04-11 05:07PM | 0 recs
The Obama's don't care about US

He also said in the same article I believe that HIS chair would be the biggest.

Get it, he's about HIMSELF and the big desk.

He will not do jack for America.  It's about power for him.

Out with the Obama's.  We want real patriots for our leaders

by dot48 2008-04-11 05:17PM | 0 recs
Re: The Obama's don't care about US

Shoo, Republicans.

by amiches 2008-04-11 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

See Obama's response http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9PepjyD ow

by politicsmatters 2008-04-11 06:08PM | 0 recs
guns

I grew up on a ranch with shotguns standing up behind the dining room door and was taught to shoot before I could scarcely lift one. My family were FDR/Truman Democrats. They tolerated Adlai Stevenson, pooh-poohed JFK -- and after that stopped talking about politics. In 1992 they started voting again, for Bill Clinton.

They always described NRA stuff as 'propoganda'. Their pickup truck didn't have anything on it but mud except when some of the cows had indigestion.

Well, not to go on and on, but imo it's an urban-rural issue. When you're 30 miles or more from a 911 response and worry about bears tearing open your door, you need a gun. When you're living in an inner-city tenement with thin walls and punks on the street outside, you hope no one has guns.

The wisdom to know the difference....

by 1950democrat 2008-04-11 07:02PM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

BO's comments show what he really thinks about the average American.  How can so one so out of touch with the American Heartland seek to lead this nation?  He doesn't share our values and he doesn't value our beliefs.

by Boston Whaler 2008-04-12 02:54AM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

I now realize that a whole segment of society does not want to be equal; they want to be superior. How disappointing when many of us fought for so many years against racism to be the target of bigotry.

by Athena2 2008-04-12 08:38AM | 0 recs
Midwest Values

I moved back to California after living in rural Indiana for 10 years and I was horrified by Obama's remarks. First it was his "foreign affairs experience" that exceeded both Hillary's and McCain's and now he is characterizing a whole segment of society he obviusly knows absolutely nothing about.  First, guns are a way of life in rural midwest--gun insurance comes automatically in most home insurance policies in Indiana!  Guns were there when jobs were good.  Next, you want American Values?  Well, the midwest is where you find them--hard work, good people who help each other out and if things go wrong, just work a little harder.  Geesh--how could he have made such a dreadful statement?????

by The Smoldering Crone 2008-04-12 09:17AM | 0 recs
Re: My grandfather clings to his guns

My family don't cling to guns, we just own several of them. Our dream is to build a house somewhere in Alaska; sit in our porch with our guns, and kill animals for food.

This is also our protection from burglars, and from a moron named Barack who wants to be President.

We do pray a lot that he won't come near our home, and force us to listen his speeches.

by SHIBAM8P 2008-04-12 01:15PM | 0 recs

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