I Just Don't Get Why Some Hillary Supporters Don't Get It

The current recommended diary "I Just Don't Get It" makes the assertion that certain progressive supporters of Obama-namely Markos and Arianna Huffington-aren't really progressives at all.  They're DINO's or some such nonsense.

Nevermind that Democratic candidates and politicians post to those sites on a regular basis because they know they will reach the widest audience of progressives on the internet (how many democratic politicians post regularly at MYDD, I wonder?).  

Nevermind that DKOS and HUFFPO aren't the only progressives Hillary has lost.  She's lost Olbermann, every jock on Air America AND MoveOn.org, which was originally named "Censure and Move On" and was established to gather support for Bill Clinton in the ridiculous impeachment proceedings.

Yes, conveniently overlook the fact that Hillary has lost ALL the big name progressive support.  Instead, just focus on two big names and smear them.

Instead of smearing good progressives, why don't you look to the reasons WHY Hillary lost so much progressive support.

Could it be because she's run a campaign right out of Karl Rove's playbook?

*  The 3am ad.

  •  The "Commander in Chief" test
  •  Playing up stupid right wing talking points like
   *  Flag pins
   *  Hand over heart
   *  Not a muslim "as far as I know"
   *  Rev Wright
   *  Ayers
   *  Bittergate

Yeah, the right wing will bring all of this up and has.  But that DOES NOT excuse a Democrat doing it against a fellow Democrat.  Not by a long shot.

How would you like it if the Obama campaign started saying, "How can we trust Hillary Clinton when she stayed married to a man who had an extramarital affair and then lied about it under oath."

Pretty disgusting, huh?  But he doesn't go there.  She does.  And that is how she lost progressive support.

The sad thing is, Hillary doesn't seem to get it.  And, obviously, neither do many of her supporters.

Tags: Hillary, obama, Progressive Support (all tags)

Comments

61 Comments

It's just what happens.

  I remember when she was sleep deprived she made up a story about being threatened by sniper fire.

  One could forgive me for worrying about her 3AM skills if that's what happens.

  And for those who claim it's a misspeak..then simply tell me what event did she confuse it with.

  i was taught that if you make up something that didn't happen, it's a lie.

by southernman 2008-05-04 01:13PM | 0 recs
Re: It's just what happens.

I remember when Obama said he was always Christian and then said Wright was the one who introduced him to his faith.

Then had a falling out with him over Wright calling Obama a politician....

Always happy to provide links if you need them =)

by DTaylor 2008-05-04 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: It's just what happens.


   I'd be happy to provide a diary link and comment links to what I've said about Wright and criticizing Obama for his absurd statements to that effect.....always trying to help.

  Doesn't change that Hillary didn't misspeak..she lied...and if that's what sleep deprivation to her...then clearly she isn't ready to be President.

by southernman 2008-05-04 01:56PM | 0 recs
Re: It's just what happens.

She lied about going to Bosnia?  No

She lied about there being a threat of sniper fire?  No

She lied about being in a place executing a landing to minimize sniper fire?  Probably not.

She just misspoke and it sounded like there was sniper fire.

And likely mixed up the WHEN of the descent to the earlier trip with Bill.

Did Obama mispeak or lie when he said he has always been a christian?

by DTaylor 2008-05-04 02:30PM | 0 recs
No. He just flat out lied :)

by aurelius 2008-05-04 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: It's just what happens.

ok I will give you that the first time she misspoke  

but what about the 2nd time she said she was under sniper fire ?  or the 3rd time she said she was under sniper fire ..... what about the 4th time she said she was under sniper fire?  

do you think she misspoke 4 times??????????

If so what does that say about her mental state if she keeps misspeaking about the same subject again 4 xs  is that the kind of person you want as president ????

by wellinformed 2008-05-04 04:48PM | 0 recs
Obama is MISLEADING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ABOUT

his healthcare program.

This is a serious problem because they won't be able to afford healthcare under Obama's healthcare plan. For people with pre-existing conditions, Obama's 'math' is particularly cruel.

Obama is clearly against universal healthcare. He's lying in hs campaign literature that claims he supports it. His own head economic advisor has said that Obama cannot afford to help cover 15 of all Americans, the sickest 1/5 of us, those with health conditions as modest as athsma and hypertension.

Is that is not lying, WHAT IS?

by architek 2008-05-04 05:24PM | 0 recs
Obama abandons ONE FIFTH OF ALL AMERICANS..

I'm sorry, the fraction didn't come out.. I meant

1/5 or ONE FIFTH of all Americans wont be able to helped at all under Obama's "consumer driven healthcare" which makes healthcare 'affordable' by shifting costs to people.. i.e covering LESS.

In fact, people with any kind of health issue will probably end up paying more than they do now.

by architek 2008-05-04 05:28PM | 0 recs
Re: It's just what happens.

I don't see her statement as while we were landing someone was shooting at us.

I think the correct factual statement is we had to change our plans because of fears related to snipers.

The Obama team seems to believe that semi recent war zones are completely peaceful after the war ends.

Iraq has had the war over for how long?

Even if you had 3 months of no shooting in Iraq there would be precautions if Laura Bush were to visit that would involve her being briefed on sniper fire etc.

The thing is that in hindsight when you know that no one got shot in the area from Date X to Date Y its easy to look back and say there was no danger.  But at the time I am fairly confident that the Secret Service didn't take that view, even if it turned out that way.

by DTaylor 2008-05-05 01:22AM | 0 recs
Re: I Just Don't Get Why Some Hillary Supporters D

*  The 3am ad.
a valid ad in a campaign.

  *  Flag pins
where did she bring this up?

  *  Hand over heart
where did she bring this up?

  *  Not a muslim "as far as I know"
you might want to read media matters on this one.  Why is it that you ignore her no answers and after the umpteenth time, she adds that on.  Like after your bratty kid asks you the same question over and over with you giving the same answer over & over again, you are like, WTF else do you want me to say?

  *  Rev Wright
other than someone ASKING her opinion on it, which all she stated was she wouldn't be a member of that church, when did she bring this up?

  *  Ayers
I don't hear much on this one, so I wonder if it is more of problem in Obama supporters heads than anything else

final verdict - slim and cheap-o diary.  

by colebiancardi 2008-05-04 01:15PM | 0 recs
Re: I Just Don't Get Why Some Hillary Supporters D

Just to make sure- Its OK For Obama to say "I would not be with Michelle if she did the same things that Bill did to Hillary."  If he's asked, its just his opinion right?

by reggie23 2008-05-04 01:21PM | 0 recs
Re: I Just Don't Get Why Some Hillary Supporters D

Leaving your church doesn't break up your immediate family. If you think that pastors are entitled to the same level of fidelity as a spouse, I would seriously take issue with your judgement.

by Little Otter 2008-05-04 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: I Just Don't Get Why Some Hillary Supporters D

So... is it ok or not ok for Obama to make such a statement?  I guess you're the moral compass that can split the hairs between family and god.  

I'll give you my answer....Its not ok.  Both are very private issues that neither candidate should be getting involved in.  An easy "no comment" or "that's between Obama and his church" would have been fine.  But the Wright issue was dying and it was politically expedient to bring it up again.  I actually thought the Clinton campaign did the very honorable thing by staying out of the Wright mess.  Of course, Hillary ruined that with her "opinion."

by reggie23 2008-05-04 01:51PM | 0 recs
well this is a problem

*  Rev Wright
other than someone ASKING her opinion on it, which all she stated was she wouldn't be a member of that church, when did she bring this up?

 *  Ayers
I don't hear much on this one, so I wonder if it is more of problem in Obama supporters heads than anything else

If you don't understand how offensive ANYTHING but supporting calls for an end to McCarthyism in the democratic party is to our core principles as Democrats then I am at a loss to figure out anything else that might convince you.

by ameridad 2008-05-04 01:31PM | 0 recs
Re: well this is a problem

end to McCarthyism?  Hyperbole much?

by colebiancardi 2008-05-04 01:49PM | 0 recs
No not at all

Do you know, or have you ever known a hippie radical?

Do you know, or have you ever known an angry black preacher?

Hillary not only responds to the questions as if they have merit, she fuels the 'controversy' by questioning the 'associations' herself.

Show me a video of Obama conspiring or consorting with violent 'anti-establishment' types.

Show me Obama's words or actions.

Don't show me how awful someone is then expect me to pile their crap onto someone with no evidence of possessing ANY similar traits, and in some cases the connections are so tenuous that by the time you find the connection you have forgotten why you were being shown one.

At long last does she have no decency?

by ameridad 2008-05-04 02:08PM | 0 recs
Re: No not at all

again, hyperbole much?

by colebiancardi 2008-05-04 02:47PM | 0 recs
Re: No not at all

Change the subject when you're wrong much?

by lockewasright 2008-05-04 06:15PM | 0 recs
Re: No not at all

I am not changing the subject - I just think you need to relax, because you are engaging in hyperbole.

no one has done any type of "McCarthyism".  Relax and perhaps watch some primaries from the the 1980's, early 1990's, 2000 & 2004.

get some perspective about your "claims"

by colebiancardi 2008-05-05 02:44AM | 0 recs
Re: No not at all


Show me a video of Obama conspiring or consorting with violent 'anti-establishment' types.

Show me Obama's words or actions.
by ameridad on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:08:09 PM CST

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/020 8/8630.html


In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district's influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn.

While Ayers and Dohrn may be thought of in Hyde Park as local activists, they're better known nationally as two of the most notorious  and unrepentant  figures from the violent fringe of the 1960s anti-war movement.


Obama's connections to Ayers and Dorhn have been noted in some fleeting news coverage in the past. But the visit by Obama to their home -- part of a campaign courtship -- reflects more extensive interaction than has been previously reported.


But -- unlike some other fringe figures of the era they're also flatly unrepentant about the bombings they committed in the name of ending the war, defending them on the grounds that they killed no one, except, accidentally, their own members.

"Ayers was a terrorist. Bernardine Dohrn was a terrorist. Ayers has never offered one word of apology -- he glories in it, thinks it's terrific. And that to me is not what I would call acceptable or mainstream behavior," said Dan Polsby, a former law professor at Northwestern who is now dean of George Mason University Law School. "If Obama takes a different view on that  well, OK, that's data about Obama."

--snip--

As Bloomberg News reported recently, Obama and Ayers have crossed paths repeatedly in the last decade. In 1997, Obama cited Ayers' critique of the juvenile justice system in a Chicago Tribune article on what prominent Chicagoans were reading. He and Ayers served together on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago for three years starting in 1999.

-snip-

Yet...

Many details of the 1995 meeting are shrouded by time and by Obama's and Ayers' refusals to discuss it.


by TxDem08 2008-05-04 05:58PM | 0 recs
Re: I Just Don't Get Why Some Hillary Supporters D

 When are you going to get it. Everyone you named are flaming neo-liberals and are disastrous for the country.
by gunner 2008-05-04 01:17PM | 0 recs
It's just a handful

of Hillary supporters who make a lot of noise.  You will see the same handful of names over and over, intermingled with hit and run commenters who say something offensive and then don't wait around for replies.

This handful of people have an agenda to push the same old talking points, exploit any anti-Obama rhetoric they run across.  They don't seem to care if what they say is true or even a believable lie.

Give up, there's no talking reason to those people.

However, I've interacted with a few honest Hillary supporters here who are normal people with reasonable ideas.  It's refreshing.

by GFORD 2008-05-04 01:17PM | 0 recs
I know, I know

And I usually don't rise to the bait.  Don't know what got over me this time.

by LawStudent 2008-05-04 01:19PM | 0 recs
It'll all be over

soon enough.  No sense pissing them off any more than they already are, we'll need them to get Obama the big win he'll need to make the changes we all need.

by ReillyDiefenbach 2008-05-04 05:21PM | 0 recs
Just another HRC hate post...

...minor details of all the Obama-related hatred spewed by their fellow Obamatrons (and the Obama campaign itself) against the HRC  candidacy are conveniently omitted.

Obviously, this blogger's online name relates to a first-year status. A more exprienced law student would put forth some evenhandedness to their claims, at least feigning some reference to reality.

Looks like another typical soon-to-be lawyer that lives by the concept that reality has nothing to do with what occurs in the courtroom. Problem is, this is not the courtroom.

by bobswern 2008-05-04 01:20PM | 0 recs
In what way did I not reference reality?

So, are you saying Olbermann, Kos, Arianna, Air America jocks and MoveOn.org support Hillary?

Whatever.

And, btw, I've been a practising attorney for three years.  Joined MYDD way back when I was a law student, probably before you even heard of it.

by LawStudent 2008-05-04 01:30PM | 0 recs
Re: In what way did I not reference reality?

Personally, I'd rather not have the support of a bunch of batshit crazy activist groups and crazy neo-liberals.

by zcflint05 2008-05-04 01:36PM | 0 recs
Re: In what way did I not reference reality?

If Olberman is a "batshit crazy activist" and "crazy neo-liberal" count me as one too.

by shalca 2008-05-04 04:32PM | 0 recs
Re: In what way did I not reference reality?

Ok.  I guess you're one too.  ;)

come on, that was just too ripe not to take.  LOL.

by TxDem08 2008-05-04 06:01PM | 0 recs
Then there's no excuse....

...since you haven't checked your facts and throw rather sophomoric comments my way. Why is that?

Is it possible to be more trite?

I've been a practicing political/corporate communications for 32 years. That doesn't limit me from occasionally making comments that, in retrospect, I wished I had rephrased.

Consider that advice from someone older and wiser.

Your diary's little more than a hit piece. Pedestrian at best. With your education, you should be able to do better than this! But, you did not.

by bobswern 2008-05-04 02:07PM | 0 recs
Being older doesn't make you wiser

You still didn't address the reality of my post.

Hillary has lost the support of all the big progessive organizations/names.  

Why is that?

by LawStudent 2008-05-04 02:35PM | 0 recs
Those aren't the only "progressives"

on the planet or in the blogosphere for that matter either.  On second thought, perhaps they have ceased to be progressive.  I don't know about you, but smearing the only candidate (HRC) with a truly universal health care proposal doesn't seem very progressive to me.  Attempting to brand the ONLY 2 term democratic president we have had since FDR as a RACIST doesn't seem very progressive to me either.  You and your ilk don't OWN the progressive movement.  Got it?

by aurelius 2008-05-04 02:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Being older doesn't make you wiser

I am not sure what reality you are looking to have addressed?

Are you saying that since KOS, Huffington and Moveon endorse a certain candidate that anyone who disagrees is not a Democrate?

The rest of your post is a bunch of crap hits that have no basis in reality. You are obviously only reading things you totally agree with and skipping anything that might interfer with your carefully created reality.

by J Rae 2008-05-04 03:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Being older doesn't make you wiser

Dodging questions is just another one of those skills you learn with 32 years of lawyering.  

Also, one evidently learns to call others trite while simultaneously dropping condescending advice from someone older and "wiser".

by lockewasright 2008-05-04 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Being older doesn't make you wiser

Arianna Huffington...progressive?  What the hell are you smokin'?

A Newt Gingrich lackey and republican smear merchant?  Someone who ran for Govenor of CA as a supposed independent-yet was a player in Republican circles?  She is the same as Karl Rove now saying he's an independent, or Democratic strategist.

It's just not happening.  Arianna is a Republian mouthpiece, who has liberal leanings, yet has never acted upon any one of her "morals", unless you count her paying $771 dollars in income tax for a multi-millonaire morally sound.

Do some research.

by TxDem08 2008-05-04 06:36PM | 0 recs
Moron.

Oh god, how many times are the Bambi-bots going to post the same damn thread? 5? You're getting there.

As for the "Hillary is a Republican" meme, you really need to get a hold of yourself. If Hillary's a republican, and you can prove it, I'll go change my voter registration to GOP tommorrow.

by zcflint05 2008-05-04 01:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Moron.

Hilary has a D in parentheses next to her name, but employs GOP campaign tactics,  functions as a McCain surrogate, wants a war with Iran, votes like a republican, and generally behaves like a republican.

There.  That's a more accurate statement.  Happy?

by lockewasright 2008-05-04 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Moron.

Obama barely has a D by his name, actually uses Republican attack ads, has no knowledge of foreign policy, votes for a Republican energy bill, and wants creationists to work with his administration, ala Bush.

Happy now?

by TxDem08 2008-05-04 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Moron.

My candidate is virtually assured the nomination.  It's safe to say I'm happy.  

by lockewasright 2008-05-04 06:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Moron.

Hilary has a D in parentheses next to her name, but employs GOP campaign tactics,  functions as a McCain surrogate, wants a war with Iran, votes like a republican, and generally behaves like a republican.

Yes, those are all certainly credible charges.

Votes

Or not.  You're being ridiculous.

by Denny Crane 2008-05-04 08:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Moron.

Lots of dems voted against authorizing the use of military force in Iraq.  Did she?

Having learned the lesson from casting the wrong vote with respect to Iraq, a lot of dems made a better decision instead of voting to hand W a path to war in Iran.  Did she?

by lockewasright 2008-05-04 09:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Moron.

The Clinton campaign said that McCane was qualified and that Barack was not, didn't it?

To quote a Hilary phrase; my charges aren't just credible, they're factual... "as far as I know."

by lockewasright 2008-05-04 09:11PM | 0 recs
Re: I Just Don't Get [A lot of stuff, apparently]

She lost Huffpo? Arianna Huffington has been a Clinton-basher for the past 16 years...

by bowiegeek 2008-05-04 01:26PM | 0 recs
All the big progressives?

That's a crock o' crap.

Barney Frank, Wes Clark, Dolores Huerta, Antonio Villaraigosa, Maya Angelou, RFK Jr., Calvin Butts, Mondale, McGovern, Maria Cantwell, Patty Murray, Maxine Waters.

by Montague 2008-05-04 01:57PM | 0 recs
Should have said

all the grassroots/netroots progressives.

My bad.

by LawStudent 2008-05-04 02:37PM | 0 recs
RI'm part of the netroots

I'm a progressive.  And I support HRC for POTUS.  Again, you guys don't own the progressive movement.

by aurelius 2008-05-04 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: RI'm part of the netroots

Well, to be fair, the original comment was about "big-name" progressives.  So unless you are Barney Frank hiding your light under a barrel with the name "aurelius," you're not in my list.

by Montague 2008-05-04 04:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Should have said

ahhh there it is. Only NEW Democrates are good.

Everyone else is obviously bad.

by J Rae 2008-05-04 03:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Should have said

That's better, then.  

I only mentioned big-name progressives in my list, but of course Hillary has many grassroots/netroots progressives on her side and at least one very big name - I speak of Jerome Armstrong.  There are more, but I thought Jerome would be a key name to mention here at MyDD.

by Montague 2008-05-04 04:28PM | 0 recs
i have a few big reasons why she lost progressives
The Iraq War Resolution
Lieberman-Kyl
Gas-Tax Holiday
Drilling in Alaska
Fox News is the only fair and balance coverage
Scaife
by TheSilverMonkey 2008-05-04 02:14PM | 0 recs
Re: i have a few big reasons

She's the one who got attacked by Scaife, she can accept his paper's invitation to talk anytime she wants. Nice try associating the two. Y'know, Kenneth Starr's law firm donated to her campaign last year: maybe you should add that to your silly list.

Obama's gone on Fox News, I suppose he lost progressives too.

Gas Tax Holiday loses progressives? Well, then I suppose voting for Dick Cheney's energy bill must be the perfect long term solution we need.

Drilling in Alaska? Hillary's voted against ANWR drilling consistently, and years before Obama even got into the US Senate. Moreover, she isn't in the pocket of the Exelon Corporation.

Lieberman-Kyl did so much damage to the progressive cause. Look at how discredited every critic of Bush's foreign policy is now that the Senate voted on a bill that expressed condemnation of Iran's funding of causes to kill our troops.

by bowiegeek 2008-05-04 04:29PM | 0 recs
Re: i have a few big reasons why she lost progress

Do you have any idea at all what you're talking about?

by Denny Crane 2008-05-04 08:07PM | 0 recs
Oh my

You write:

How would you like it if the Obama campaign started saying, "How can we trust Hillary Clinton when she stayed married to a man who had an extramarital affair and then lied about it under oath.

Michelle Obama already said it:

"One of the things, the important aspects of this race is role modeling what good families should look like," Michelle Obama said at a Women for Obama event. "And my view is that if you can't run your own house, you certainly can't run the White House."

Coarse and obnoxious, yeah?

My view is that policy trumps campaign civility.  I don't exepct political opponents to treat each other with doting kid gloves.  I don't care if they run negative ads.  Frankly, negative ads are usually more entertaining than positive ones.  

It's about effectiveness in the White House for me, not about faux civility in TV commercials.  

by BPK80 2008-05-04 02:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh my

Would you mind putting Michelle's quote in the context she was speaking, which was how she handles her children during a campaign like this?

"Our view was that, if you can't run your own house, you certainly can't run the White House. So, so we've adjusted our schedules to make sure that our girls are first, so while he's traveling around, I do day trips. That means I get up in the morning, I get the girls ready, I get them off, I go and do trips, I'm home before bedtime."

by shalca 2008-05-04 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh my

Check out the video and the audience response.  You forgot to insert the long pause after her anti-Hillary remark.  

by BPK80 2008-05-04 05:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh my

Oh god. . .

by shalca 2008-05-04 06:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh my


"Our view was that, if you can't run your own house, you certainly can't run the White House.

No.  This was a direct hit against Hillary and if you watch the video you will see it for what it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN1qZMBE9 Gc

She was talking about "family values", not on how she deals with children.  The video and your recollection do not mesh together.  Want to take another stab at it?

by TxDem08 2008-05-04 06:49PM | 0 recs
Re: I Just Don't Get Why Some Hillary Supporters D

The interesting thing that has yet to happen is when and if "The One" does get to the WH.  He has already been compared to MLK, JFK, RFK, ad infinitum.  It is who he appoints to head up his cabinet and key posts within the "change and hope" administration.  Will he appoint those who have had experience?  You know, the old Washington insiders he has been running against?  Or will it be those along the lines of Deval (also another hope and changer)Patrick whose inexperience has done absolutely nothing for the state of Massachusetts?  Then the scales will begin to fall from the eyes of those Obamabots and let's see of Kos and HuffPo will be there to make excuses for this newbie who was supposed to transcend the ordinary.  And get ready to be blasted by the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, Jr. who will be ready and waiting to call anyone who dares ask a question raise a criticism against Mr. I Am Above the Old Ways with cries of racism.  Should be a great 4 years.  

by Pat J 2008-05-04 03:31PM | 0 recs
For a "law student" your

diary lacks, common sense, a good argument and facts.

God help America if you pass the bar. Judging from your diary and reasoning skills I'm not too worried about America though.

by LatinoVoter 2008-05-04 07:08PM | 0 recs
You Just Don't Get It

A common phrase that grew out of the 1980s. The phrase is meant to be derogatory, and can be translated to say: "Why are you so stupid?" I will forgive you since you also admit that you don't get it, too.

Now, because Bill Clinton is a former president of the United States, many people assume that Clinton is the establishment candidate and Obama is the anti-establishment candidate. Actually, the reverse is true.

Bill Clinton was never popular among elected Democrats. That's why a majority of super delegates who are office holders have and will vote for Obama.

Moreover, although a majority of rank and file union members have voted for Clinton, the majority of the unions have endorsed Obama. This means that Obama has the Union machinery to turn out his supporters.

Obama also has the support of most progressive non-profits, the netroots and media (even though Obama has had a tough last seven weeks).

Progressives often like the underdog and anti-establishment candidate. They also like Clinton's populist message (although not quite as populist as Edwards). Many progressives also like that Clinton is for universal health care, and liked Clinton's "It takes a village" theme.

by Zzyzzy 2008-05-04 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: I Just Don't Get Why Some

And I just don't get why some Obama supporters don't get it. Demographically he has very little chance of winning in November. But still they claim all is well. As for this diary I love the list of charges against Clinton where she has allegedly used dirty politics against Obama. Most seem self inflicted wounds. Anyone who watched yesterday's little performances and I toggled between the two has to be concerned about Obama as a candidate. His performance was pretty bad by any standard. Over at ABC Clinton was in complete control.      

by ottovbvs 2008-05-05 03:25AM | 0 recs

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