More pesky Prop 8 facts

Facts are facts, whether people want to hear them or not.  

As more data comes in, the FACT is that a significant number of "progressive" voters, who delivered a massive California victory for  Barack Obama, also supported California's Proposition 8, which placed a ban on gay marriage in the state constitution.

"Ironically . . . a mathematical analysis of voting and exit poll data indicates very strongly that it was exactly that pro-Obama surge that spelled victory for Proposition 8."

At first, "it was widely assumed that hundreds of thousands of first-time or occasional voters had turned out to vote for Obama, then left the rest of their ballots blank, thus allowing more conservative voters to dominate ballot measures."

Actually, there was very little voting drop-off. "10.96 million votes had been tallied in the presidential race and 10.85 million for and against Proposition 8."

In FACT, "a great many Obama voters were also voting for Proposition 8, sponsored by a very conservative religious coalition."

Proposition 8, in FACT, received 1.6 million more votes than John McCain.  "And, it's apparent, many of those votes - enough to make the difference - came from African American and Latino voters drawn to the polls by Obamamania."

African Americans voted 94 percent for Obama and 70 percent of African Americans also voted for Proposition 8.  Latinos voted 74 percent for Obama and 53 for Proposition 8.

"Last week . . . 10 percent of [California] voters were African American while 18 percent were Latino, and applying exit poll data to that extra turnout reveals that the pro-Obama surge among those two groups gave Proposition 8 an extra 500,000-plus votes, slightly more than the measure's margin of victory."

Read the FACTS:
http://www.sacbee.com/walters/story/1387 029.html

Two lessons - - gay marriage could win, in a "normal" turnout, lower intensity, off year election.  And, when the overwhelmingly popular winning candidate is against something (like gay marriage), it's not the time to expect to win on the issue.

BTW, there was a time when the "reality based community" would deal with facts, not deny them or shout them down.

UPDATE - For the record, and in answer to questions, I support gay marriage (and reproductive freedom, and decriminalization of marijuana, etc.) on libertarian grounds. And, I support leaving it to the states on federalist grounds. What we need is a dozen or so states with legalized gay marriage to prove to the trogolodytes that it doesn't end western civilization as we know it. And, what am I "doing to support marriage equality besides misdirecting the blame?" Well, I voted for it in Florida - - unlike at least 15 to 20% of all Obama supporters (run the numbers - - assuming 100% of McCain voters were anti marriage equality, where'd all those other "save marriage" amendment voters come from?)

CROSS POSTED AT FAR RIGHT DEMOCRAT
http://farrightdemocrat.blogspot.com/
and anywhere else they'll let me

Tags: 2008, Proposition 8 (all tags)

Comments

61 Comments

Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

Why would someone who calls himself "Far Right" worry about how progressives vote?  Besides, you're needed elsewhere.  I think I hear some billy goats trying to cross a bridge . . .

by the mystical vortexes of sedona 2008-11-11 10:56AM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

No disagreement with you numbers. However this statement is wrong-

And, when the overwhelmingly popular winning candidate is against something (like gay marriage), it's not the time to expect to win on the issue.

While Obama may favor civil unions. He 1) believes it's a states issue and 2) came out against Prop 8 very early on.

Obama's position on Gay marriage had zero to do with the passage of Prop 8.

Facts are fine except when you twist them to promote some misguided agenda.

by jsfox 2008-11-11 11:05AM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

2) came out against Prop 8 very early on.

On the news?  On the radio?  Or?

Obama's position on Gay marriage had zero to do with the passage of Prop 8.

I think those fliers the Yes on 8 crowd produced with his image had something to do with it passing.  

by IssaquahIndie 2008-11-11 11:09AM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

He stated in a letter to  Alice B. Toklas LGBT Democratic Club which was widely quoted in the media. This was in June of '08.

"As the Democratic nominee for President, I am proud to join with and support the LGBT community in an effort to set our nation on a course that recognizes LGBT Americans with full equality under the law...And that is why I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states."

He stated he was against in an interview with MTV.

The fact that he was used in a flier does not mean he condoned that mailer. It was misleading and then some.

by jsfox 2008-11-11 11:26AM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

But the problem is that, like every other contender for the Presidency, he also kept explicitly saying that marriage is between a man and a woman.

I don't blame him (nor other candidates) for saying that; it's a delicate balance. But the problem with the balance is that both sides can claim he supports them. It might have helped for our side on Prop 8 to have publicized his position a little more aggressively, but I'm sure they too were skittish about it being used against him in the swing states (in retrospect, it might not have mattered, but considering how nervous everyone was at the time...)

As we continue to make progress, we'll get to the point where Democratic Presidential candidates (maybe even red-state Senate candidates) can support gay marriage. I think that will happen sooner than some expect, but clearly it's not the case yet.

by fsm 2008-11-11 12:08PM | 0 recs
Prior to last week

I had thought that gay marriage was an eventual given, that in 10 years or so, we would have equality.  Now, I don't think that's the case.  I fear that gay Americans will become increasingly marginalized in the political sphere.  Given the voting patterns on Props 2 and 8 and the cowardice of the Democratic party, I don't see a bright future for gay Americans.  

by orestes 2008-11-11 06:18PM | 0 recs
The Civil Rights Act

was not popular and was opposed by a number of Dem politicians.  But LBJ had the courage to enact that law.  He could have played the same game you advocate (playing defense), but had the strength of his conviction.  So, you think we should just wait until the courts change (remember the Republicans have appointed a majority of the current federal bench).  We'd have to wait a hell of a long time for enough judges to retire to create an opportunity for a positive result.  Furthermore, the Supreme Court typically waits until issues have percolated in the lower courts long enough before it resolves the issue.  This would all take about 20 years.  I don't have that long to wait.    

by orestes 2008-11-11 07:18PM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

I thought his denouncing of Prop 8 was lukewarm.  He could have been more high profile, but I think the contradiction he faces is that he's against gay marriage (which he has to say, right?) and yet against Prop 8.  That would, to many "low information voters" seem contradictory; I'm not a low information voter, and it's slightly contradictory to me.

Plus, it was June.  Was anyone listening then?

by IssaquahIndie 2008-11-11 12:23PM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

That still doesn't make it his fault that he was misrepresented by the Yes On 8 campaign, or even really his problem (he was trying to become president at the time... not exactly an occupation for which there is a broad margin for error).

You know kosnomore's game, right?

by Dracomicron 2008-11-11 12:35PM | 0 recs
Obama could have done more

But the same could be said for many. That's all Monday morning quarterbacking now.

I do cut Obama slack... he had a General Election to win. I'm not counting on Obama to be out in front of this issue.

I do wish he had spoken out specifically to clarify the misleading Yes On 8 pamphlets which used his words against gay marriage and targeted African American voters.

I also agree that his June statement got way lost in the shuffle.

by twinmom 2008-11-11 12:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama could have done more

I cut Obama slack too.  We have seen Dems can't win national (or rarely statewide) elections supporting gay marriage.  That's apples.  The oranges are the Dems who voted for Prop 8.  

by ChitownDenny 2008-11-11 03:18PM | 0 recs
You're going to blame

gay people for this?  Because they didn't spend enough money or have good advertisements?  That takes the cake.  Why not blame the politicians and community leaders who were either silent or supported the prop.  Or, more importantly, the voters who voted yes?  The proposition was written in plain English.  You don't need an advertising campaign to explain a proposition to ban gay marriage.  It's good to know that you think my ability to have equal rights should be based upon how expensive and effective an advertising campaign we run.

by orestes 2008-11-11 06:27PM | 0 recs
We agree

that the yes people preyed on bigotry.  But let's recognize that bigots voted for the proposition.  Why do you not blame the bigots?  Of course, we will always have an uphill battle on any public ballot because if there were significant agreement, the initiative would not exist.  And I don't deny that good campaigning can help the cause.  But the campaign was not the problems, the bigoted voters were.  Also, I think the No people pedaled softly because they did not want to create issues for Obama and then get blamed if he lost (see 2004).  That was their mistake.

by orestes 2008-11-11 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

Why does Hillary Clinton get a pass, even though she has the same position?

by Jess81 2008-11-11 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

Because.  Just because.

by the mystical vortexes of sedona 2008-11-11 02:45PM | 0 recs
jess...

why is this the 5th time i have seen you bring this up in 2 days?  how is this relevant to the diary or original comment in any way?  

also clinton is a senator from NY not the president elect.

by canadian gal 2008-11-11 05:26PM | 0 recs
nope sorry.

its people putting their own baggage onto others and cut it out. while i am not arguing the intentions of the diarist -  clinton and most of her supporters threw their support to obama and that's how he got elected.

the diarist didnt mention clinton and neither did the commenter - i swear some of you guys are worse than PUMA's.

by canadian gal 2008-11-11 06:22PM | 0 recs
HAHA.

you want me to refight the primary with you?  sorry no.

its v. simple - clinton is a senator from NY and obama is president-elect there are no more equivalencies on their positions.  the fact that you and others continually bring her up says more about your own baggage than anything else.

by canadian gal 2008-11-11 06:34PM | 0 recs
again...

stop confilating your ideas onto clinton.  kosnomore does not represent clinton or anyone else but him/herself.

prop 8 is a sensitive issue and if i recall correctly - obama came out against it in june.  both obama and clinton hold ideas about gay marraige that most progressives wish was different.

so what's your point?  

here we are talking about a senator and the president elect in the same breath.  why don't we talk about dodd , pelosi or dean's position on this?  hey they are all leaders in the party no?

by canadian gal 2008-11-11 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: My point is

ask him/her why?  better yet - i think we both know the answer.

by canadian gal 2008-11-11 06:57PM | 0 recs
no.

while i more often than not agree with jess, i have seen this point being brought  up several times.  on a personal note - sore winners are much more distasteful to me than sore losers.

as i said - its time people get over their primary baggage or else they are no better than PUMA's.

by canadian gal 2008-11-11 07:05PM | 0 recs
Re: nope sorry.

"its people putting their own baggage onto others"

And its just a coincidence that they were all rapidly pro-Hillary or anti-Obama supporters?  Is it a surprise that these PUMAs are coming out of the woodwork to blame black people for something.  The voting patterns on Prop. 8 aren't the cause, they are just a justification.

by the mystical vortexes of sedona 2008-11-11 07:20PM | 0 recs
Re: nope sorry.

not

defending

diarist.

by canadian gal 2008-11-11 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: nope sorry.

you say you aren't defending the diarist, but you only seem to criticize the folks that are critical of the diarist (and people like him).  you give him a pass and try to force us to uphold some chivalric standard of fairness when critiquing his heinousness.

by the mystical vortexes of sedona 2008-11-11 07:58PM | 0 recs
is this groundhog day?

didnt you follow me into another diary a couple of days ago with the same petty accusations? and the same people mojoing your comments?  january 20 - oops... the mystical vortexes of sedona....

seriously get a grip - and get over it - obama won.

by canadian gal 2008-11-12 05:35AM | 0 recs
Re: is this groundhog day?

I'm not january 20th, I don't use other handles and I am offended by the suggestion.

I don't follow you anywhere. I post in lots of threads and sometimes you're there.  The fact is, my responses to comment threads are no different from yours.  You criticize people  for their behavior (for being "rude" or "stalking"), yet you seem to assume that no one has any business responding to you.  I am not telling you to change your behavior, merely to pause and examine it.  While most of my critical comments are reserved for the trolls (and sometimes the absentee admins), I believe that most of your critical comments are reserved for those that loudly disagree with the trolls.  I don't mind being proven wrong (it wouldn't be a first), I just wish you would respond with examples to refute me rather than accusations of stalking, sockpuppetry or trolling.

I don't mean to make this personal (but maybe it has gotten there and if it has, I apologize) and, while I sometimes disapprove of who you save your criticism for, I respect your voice and temperment on this blog.  

by the mystical vortexes of sedona 2008-11-12 09:18AM | 0 recs
Re: is this groundhog day?

if you read my comments with nrafter you will probably see that i give clear examples of the problems in which i am seeing.

stop bashing clinton period - or using her as a reason/way to beat down people you think are trolls.  its bad enough so may are keeping score about who supported who during the primary, but i will not let the constant digs or rewriting of history about clinton.  that is my position - end of story.

now please - lets not waste anymore time on this as i am losing my patience with this topic.

by canadian gal 2008-11-12 10:35AM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

kosnomore, thanks for this diary. And yes, I do not think it bodes well for us to duck information that makes us uncomfortable. We all know the usual suspects against gay marriage. It was the extraordinary AA turnout which put it over. Saying this doesn't make one a racist. Altho many on here think it does. Ignoring isn't a sound progressive response. And neither is denial. I know the party line is to focus on Everyone else who voted for Prop 8. But that is old news. The new news is in the statistics you cite. good stuff.

by linfar 2008-11-11 11:24AM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

No I don't think it makes you a racist, but blaming it's passing on one community or another doesn't move the discussion forward.

If Jewish voters had voted against it, if latinos had voted against it it, if white males had voted against it. If the mormon church hadn't dumped 30 million into it and the list goes on. There is more than enough blame to go around.

by jsfox 2008-11-11 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

You mean information like Obama releasing his personal prayer to the public while he was at the wailing wall???????  Sorry it if makes you uncomfortable to bring that up again, but we wouldn't want you to avoid a subject just because it makes you feel uncomfortable. No matter how RACIALLY INSENSITIVE you ARE.

by venician 2008-11-11 11:54AM | 0 recs
Try facts as they are presented

Well, if you look at exit polls, you'll see that if the over 65 voters had not turned out, Prop 8 would have been defeated.
Nate Silver breaks it down:

Certainly, the No on 8 folks might have done a better job of outreach to California's black and Latino communities. But the notion that Prop 8 passed because of the Obama turnout surge is silly. Exit polls suggest that first-time voters -- the vast majority of whom were driven to turn out by Obama (he won 83 percent [!] of their votes) -- voted against Prop 8 by a 62-38 margin. More experienced voters voted for the measure 56-44, however, providing for its passage.

Now, it's true that if new voters had voted against Prop 8 at the same rates that they voted for Obama, the measure probably would have failed. But that does not mean that the new voters were harmful on balance -- they were helpful on balance. If California's electorate had been the same as it was in 2004, Prop 8 would have passed by a wider margin.

Furthermore, it would be premature to say that new Latino and black voters were responsible for Prop 8's passage. Latinos aged 18-29 (not strictly the same as 'new' voters, but the closest available proxy) voted against Prop 8 by a 59-41 margin. These figures are not available for young black voters, but it would surprise me if their votes weren't fairly close to the 50-50 mark.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

by skohayes 2008-11-11 11:58AM | 0 recs
Sorry I just posted the same thing downthread
I hadn't read your comment here. I apologize. No plagiarism intended.
by Sandy1938 2008-11-11 04:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry I just posted

Great minds think alike, is what I always say!

by skohayes 2008-11-12 07:10AM | 0 recs
Re: It's not racist, it's a LIE

Nate Silver sez that new voters voted against the bill by about a 2-1 margin.

by the mystical vortexes of sedona 2008-11-11 12:59PM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

Doesn't make you a racist but it does make you wrong. If no AA's had voted, Prop 8 still would have passed.

by X Stryker 2008-11-11 01:24PM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

Linda, you're lying again.

by Jess81 2008-11-11 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

I agree its important to note this diary. I predict gay marriage is the issue which the right is gonna use to go after minority voters and arouse their base. Prop 8, passing in an extremely liberal state which voted Obama 60%-37% is a massive victory, which is why they are convinced America is still a "center right" country. Now that Obama will be President, I hope he uses his extraordinary sway amongst blacks to convince them its not immoral or even voluntary to be gay. He can use his position to change black America. I think a lot has to do with economics. The less affluent, the more socially conservatives. Blacks were previously unmotivated, out of hopelessness, to try to better themselves. Many of them saw thru Jackson and Sharpton, who at times seemed like their own dicks got hard because of how many talk shows they pimped. Not anymore, as they are nowhere close to the leading black voice. Perhaps Obama's victory is being so lauded in that its not only the only time the Western world has elected a non ethnic-majority leader(other than Evo Morales in Bolivia), but he is one who can change a whole segment of the population, 11%, and thus the world. Hispanics need to be lifted up too. I hope Obama appoints one to the Supreme Court. They seem to have it a little better than blacks, although not by much.

Homophobia altogether is the problem. We need to realize this fight won't be over for another half generation, when more of the Obama generation grows up.

by Lakrosse 2008-11-11 04:03PM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts


Here's another pesky fact: gay marriage picks up support in polling at a rate of 1% per year.  California polled at 47% a year ago, 46% two years ago.  Opposition to Prop. 8 a week ago got 48%.

Your pontificating is rather amusing, but your theory and complicated effort at explanation doesn't trump empirical facts.

I leave the math on when gay marriage gets 50%+1 in California up to you.

by killjoy 2008-11-11 11:35AM | 0 recs
I'm not gay but

I'm alarmed as a Progressive Democrat and as a woman.


Proposition 8 received 1.6 million more votes than John McCain.

From my perspective as a staunch advocate for Reproductive Freedom, if I'd seen my personal rights stripped last Tuesday by fellow Obama voters and/or the manipulation and agenda of the far right and conservative religious groups, I'd be reeling right now.

The LGBT community deserved so much more than Tuesday's results. We've got to get to the bottom of what happened and then start working to fix it.

Martin Luther King:

"All men are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality."

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."

"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."

"When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative."

"All progress is precarious, and the solution of one problem brings us face to face with another problem."

"The good neighbor looks beyond the external accidents and discerns those inner qualities that make all men human and, therefore, brothers."

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

by twinmom 2008-11-11 11:36AM | 0 recs
Thank you

I appreciate your view.  This is exactly how I feel, but I feel that most people on the left want to just ignore the voting stats and homophobia.  

by orestes 2008-11-11 06:38PM | 0 recs
Your post is an example of

what I have been reading.  The prop passed because people voted for it.  Not because there was a bad campaign.  The campaign is determinative only if you believe people are too stupid to know what they are voting for.  The yes people preyed on people's bigotry.  They didn't create that bigotry, they manipulated it.  And AAs were particularly responsive to or in agreement with it.  The same thing happened in Florida.  And to blame the campaign ignores the rampant homophobia that is promoted in segments of the AA community, including from clergy.  It is ridiculous to blame AAs for it passing, but it is not unfair to acknowledge that AAs voted- in two states- in significant majorites to deny gay rights.  I would ask you to focus on that issue, instead of the canard that AAs are responsible for the prop passing.

by orestes 2008-11-11 07:01PM | 0 recs
Not necessarily

It means that the gay rights movement has to reconsider who its allies are.  I agree that we have to try to move those people who could care less or are mildly opposed to gay rights.  I don't think the AA community generally falls into that category.  I think we are better served building an alliance with the latin community, for example.  I think it was easier to trump racism than it would be homphobia.  Racism is socially unacceptable in the US; homophobia is still very much accepted.  

by orestes 2008-11-11 07:32PM | 0 recs
Of course

the youth are generally more progressive on equal rights for all.  It's heartening to see the difference from my youth.  However, I think latin Catholics can be reached more easily than the AA community.  Of course, they are not a monolith.  For example, Cuban Americans who have been here longer tend to be more conservative. There is much room for solidarity with Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, and South Americans.  Hell, I know a South American priest who has no problems living as a gay man all week and saying mass on Sundays.  

by orestes 2008-11-11 08:16PM | 0 recs
I didn't say anything about race at all

My bottomline is that I'd like the Democratic Party to at least start moving towards a more Progressive future. That's what I'm working for.

I recognize that Democratic leaders still feel it is too risky to be out in front of this issue (with a few notable exceptions... Govs Deval Patrick and David Paterson are examples of Democratic politicians who have taken a clear pro-gay marriage stance).

The hope which was bashed for me by the results of Prop 8 (and the other anti-gay legislation that passed a week ago) is that it shows that our coalition is not as Progressive as I (perhaps naively) thought it was. I'm not blaming any one group, but the fact remains that a lot of people voted for Obama also voted anti-gay.

The far right and the agenda of religious conservatives is to blame for this in my opinion, and that is going to clearly be an ongoing battle which we need to keep fighting. They will keep putting this type of legislation out there, not just regarding gay marriage or gay rights but about ANY issue with a moral component.

I totally disagree with your attitude to blame a poorly run No On 8 campaign. They were blindsided by a multi-million dollar despicable campaign which fed off intolerance and mis-information. We, as Democrats, are all in this together. This is a much larger battle... and it parallels huge issues like separation of church and state, privacy, civil rights, individual freedom and autonomy.

Look at the despicable efforts by the far right in CO to define a fertilized egg as a person with full legal rights (Amendment 48). What if that had passed? Would you be blaming women? Planned Parenthood? I say bullshit.

I repeat this MLK quote:

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

by twinmom 2008-11-12 04:29AM | 0 recs
Pesky Fact: kosnomore is a troll

kosnomore has consistantly tried to undermine Democratic unity, candidates, and causes.  One look at his posting and diary history is all it takes to understand what he's about.

by Dracomicron 2008-11-11 12:13PM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

So, what are you doing to support marriage equality besides misdirecting the blame?

by X Stryker 2008-11-11 01:27PM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

Read Nate Silver's excellent takedown of your shitty argument and shut your pie hole.

by Cincinnatus 2008-11-11 02:43PM | 0 recs
I wish you realized that you are doing more harm

than good.  While it is not beneficial to sweep statistics like these "under the carpet" this diary serves no purpose.  Everyone in the blogosphere already knows that African Americans supported the ballot measure by 70 percent.  Rush Limbaugh himself feature that juicy tidbit on his own website, and has talked about it on his radio show,  in order to sow the seeds of division between progressives, hoping to turn blacks and LGBT's against one another.

I am a lesbian, and the passage of Prop 8 has taught me was have a long way to go to secure our rights.  I believe that those African Americans who voted for it, either were confused (a YES note meant NO on gay marriage),  or misguided by their church.  Either way,  lets work on reaching them, but not blaming them.

I understand the anger.  But it was not Obama, nor African Americans, nor progressives who created the ballot measure to begin with.  Lets direct our anger at the conservatives who did, and dare I say the "far right."

by Sandy1938 2008-11-11 02:47PM | 0 recs
Re: I wish you realized that you are

Maybe you don't know this person's history - creating divisions is exactly the point for this one.

by rfahey22 2008-11-11 03:09PM | 0 recs
Thanks for the warning and....
I hope as a community, we can all stop this silly notion that it was Obama supporters who caused lbgt's to lose our rights. We have to fight this meme, just as vehemently as we must fight to overturn Prop 8. We cannot allow the right wing to divide us and conquer us. In actuality, it was YOUNGER voters who voted FOR gay marriage, while it was the OLDER voters, who were raised during a much more homophobic era, who voted AGAINST gay marriage:
Certainly, the No on 8 folks might have done a better job of outreach to California's black and Latino communities. But the notion that Prop 8 passed because of the Obama turnout surge is silly. Exit polls suggest that first-time voters -- the vast majority of whom were driven to turn out by Obama (he won 83 percent [!] of their votes) -- voted against Prop 8 by a 62-38 margin. More experienced voters voted for the measure 56-44, however, providing for its passage.
The source of that quote is 538.com, and its source is the CA EXIT POLLS.
by Sandy1938 2008-11-11 04:17PM | 0 recs
OOPS
Someone posted the same thing upthread. My mistake. I hadn't read all the comments before posting this quote. I did not intend to plagiarize her comment.
by Sandy1938 2008-11-11 04:24PM | 0 recs
The voting results

indicate we are already divided.  Do you reach out to James Dobson for unity?  Well, there are AAs who hold similar views.  We should unite with like-minded people, not simply on the basis of race.  The AA community is not a monolith and clearly the GLBT community is not a concern for a significant segment of the AA community.

Also, I don't mean to be harsh, but it's a bit patronizing to assume that people didn't know what they were voting for.  

by orestes 2008-11-11 06:42PM | 0 recs
What is your point?

I ask sincerely.

by orestes 2008-11-11 07:19PM | 0 recs
I agree with you

but it is more virulent and widely accepted in some regions and in some communities.  I agree that we GLBT folks have to fight the same way AAs did.  We know now that we cannot rely on large segments of the AA community in that fight.  With regard to homophobia's reach, most of Europe is exremely progressive on gay rights issues.  Yes, there are huge problems in parts of the world, but the more developed countries are generally much more progressive than the US (UK, France, Canada, Netherlands, etc.).

by orestes 2008-11-11 07:37PM | 0 recs
Italy is beautiful

Rome is a beautiful city.  I was shocked that Spain legalized marriage and remember the opposition.  But they did the right thing.  Sure, it may take a generation for people not care any longer, but at least they are in that process.  I lived in London for two years.  Of course, the Brits could care less, which is their national tendency.  They do not care about marriage gay or straight.  I found it really refreshing that they frequently referred to their spouses as partners.  I actually prefer that term to husband/wife when it is used to denote any relationship (usually unmarried) whether gay or straight.  I hope you are enjoying your time in Italy and have the chance to travel (esp. now that the exchange rate is more reasonable for yanks.  I highly recommend Madrid, Paris (of course), Berlin (great city), Amsterdam, and Athens.  Enjoy!  

by orestes 2008-11-11 08:07PM | 0 recs
I really have to proofread

by orestes 2008-11-11 08:08PM | 0 recs
It wasn't intended to be patronizing.........
but the wording of the ballot measure was confusing, and for someone for whom this issue wasn't really that important, it would have been very easy to think a YES vote meant YES TO GAY MARRIAGE when in reality, a YES vote meant NO TO GAY MARRIAGE. Its just like Ellen Degeneres said of the wording "Do you NOT want dessert?" the person answers "YES I want dessert." I believe the wording accounted for more votes than people realize. As for "reaching out to James Dobson"--- well thats not going to happen. I am talking about reaching out to sympathetic African American Church's, such as Trinity Church (made famous by Rev Wright) which has always taken a pro-gay rights stance. I am also talking about reaching out to community organizers, who are also sympthatic to this cause. There are a host of things that we LGBTs could have done better. And also, as I pointed out in my post, a lot of this has to do with age. The younger voters supported gay marraige more than their older counterparts. Time is on our side, and support for gay rights goes up every year.
by Sandy1938 2008-11-12 08:17AM | 0 recs
I take you at your word

but the title of the prop said:  eliminates right of same sex couples to marry.  Granted, they do like to confuse with language, but I think the title makes it clear what a yes vote meant.  I agree with you that the LGBT community should reach out to all sympathetic allies regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, age, etc.  But it is in our interest to identify those sympathetic partners and acknowledge those who are not allies.  With regard to age changing the demographics, while I applaud your enthusiasm, time is not on our side.  There are scores of lesbian and gay people who will never be able to marry because "the future" had not arrived before they died.  Which means their spouse will be left to deal with a bureaucracy which will deny them the right to grant the last wishes of their partner, and to bury them, and to inherit their estate.  And those are just a few of the rights that many will never be able to enjoy.  So, I am not comforted by the notion that some day your dream will come true.  And although I assume you do not intend this meaning, the "the future will be greener" argument rings in my ears as a cheery way of saying- just wait.  It'll get better.  Which sets me on edge because it it diminishes the significance of the denial of my basic human rights.  Would we tell anyone else suffering injustice that, just wait, things will get better?  I don't think so.

by orestes 2008-11-12 10:57AM | 0 recs
I don't know about that

I have never read that supporters of racial equality were telling AAs to wait at that time.  But I am willing to be corrected.

by orestes 2008-11-14 01:05PM | 0 recs
I meant to state

that I am talking about today- would we tell any other group to wait?  (Perhaps, women)  We didn't in South Africa.  As progressives we fight- by whatever means available to us- to ensure equality.  With SA, it was through divestment and boycotting of companies doing business there.  I'm tired of being told to just be quiet until we (Dems) get into power and then things will change.  

by orestes 2008-11-14 01:09PM | 0 recs
Re: More pesky Prop 8 facts

I would post monocle cat but I don't even have the energy anymore.

by Skaje 2008-11-12 09:09AM | 0 recs

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