From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

I'm not looking to re-fight the primary. But, history is prequel.

Hillary had an apparent early lock on the old school liberal, civil rights, women's rights and gay rights establishments in N.Y., L.A. and D.C. So, Obama went around them.

The Obama campaign took off in South Carolina, with the Obama campaign's "Embrace the Change" gospel concert series, featuring Rev. Donnie McClurkin. He's the guy who headlined the final show, declaring, "God delivered me from homosexuality." /reverend-mcclurkin-at-oba_n_70202.html

Obama's path to the White House took him to hundreds of campus "student activity centers", "hubs" and "haus-es". And, into the homes of thousands of "Whole Foods shoppers". But, the main road went through hundreds if not thousands of dusty, forgotten, backroads churches.

Many of the "new" voters were registered in those churches. The African Methodist Episcopal Church of Zion. The Living Word Fellowship. The Independent Bible Baptist Church. And, hundreds of independent churches so poor and so small and so local that their preachers work 9 to 5 as bus drivers and barbers.

People from those churches are against gay mariage because it's inconsistent with their Christian beliefs. People like the church ladies who made Obama in South Carolina are simply, unalterably "against such foolishness".

As a conservative Democrat, who supports gay marriage on libertarian and states rights' grounds, I'm otherwise far from disappointed by this influx of socially conservative voters into my party. The current hub-bub on the issue simply shows how little liberal progressives really know about the black church and the black community.


P.S. - "Lead, follow or get out of the way." So I got out of the way. I thought it was preferable to lurking and trolling between the convention and the election. I think I behaved like a gentleman. But, I see the same bully boys are playing their little boy games, i.e., undeservedly hiding comments that raise issues they don't want to discuss. So, I will post diaries but not comment.

Tags: 2008, Barack Obama, donnie mcclurkin, Hillary Clinton (all tags)



Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

I'm not looking to re-fight the primary.


by sricki 2008-11-08 08:06AM | 0 recs
Short version

"What do we REALLY know about Blacks??"

by Neef 2008-11-08 08:11AM | 0 recs
Not at all.
Just don't assume black skin = liberal, or that black fundamentalists will vote differently than white fundamentalists on social issues.
By the shock I'm hearing over Prop 8, it seems lots of folks didn't know that.
by kosnomore 2008-11-08 08:15AM | 0 recs
Known troll.

Don't take the bait.

H'rate and move on.

by spacemanspiff 2008-11-08 08:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Not at all.

By the same token don't assume glbt = antiracist ally. Now that we have both stated the obvious what is the next step?Getting to marriage equality via the courts? Education and outreach to black folks? Civil unions for all couples and marriage being a church rite?

by Ida B 2008-11-08 10:42AM | 0 recs
I agree - -
Again, I'm observing NOT fighting (the battle's over).
Look - - in Nebraska, there were obviously folks who voted FOR Obama (who supports affirmative action) but AGAINST affirmative action in a referendum.
by kosnomore 2008-11-08 08:13AM | 0 recs

by spacemanspiff 2008-11-08 08:14AM | 0 recs
I thought you left whining and crying troll...

What made you come back?

I'm not looking to re-fight the primary.

Great way to start a diary.

by spacemanspiff 2008-11-08 08:13AM | 0 recs
Lead, follow or get out of the way - -
So I got out of the way.
Would you rather I stayed and lurked and trolled between the convention and the election?
I think I behaved like a gentleman.
by kosnomore 2008-11-08 08:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Lead, follow or get out of the way - -

Oh please.

To act like a gentleman you had to be one to begin with.

Would you rather I stayed and lurked and trolled between the convention and the election?

Why come back and troll now?

You won't read this anyways.

Buh bye.

by spacemanspiff 2008-11-08 08:35AM | 0 recs
i actully think you have a point here.

however you have no made it well.

by canadian gal 2008-11-08 08:49AM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

I've felt much of what you say.  Many of us have.

Many of us also realize that the very minute you bring up McClurkin that you will be slapped back 'in your place' and your voice will be the one that folks are not willing to allow to be heard.

Think about it for a second: the McClurkins of the party, we were told, were deserving of having their voice heard, and of engaging in dialogue  in order to understand and include them.

Your voice is not wanted.

Yes, it is a paradox, one that cannot be breached on either MyDD or dKos without soundly getting branded names like 'racist, troll or bigot'.


by emsprater 2008-11-08 08:53AM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

Maybe you should diary it.

kosnomore is a troll. Has always been a troll. He could praise Obama and the Democratic party and I'd still call him a troll and h'rate his ass. If people want to give these turds the attention they crave, go ahead. That's what is shameful.

by spacemanspiff 2008-11-08 08:59AM | 0 recs
I think ...

we do better when we leave personality issues at the power button and have debate rather than denigration amongst each other.  That said, I understand your frustration.  

I remember this name, but I don't remember any 'trollery', mainly because I don't 'keep score'.  I do know a couple of vehement anti gay MyDD names, I recognize them when I see them.  

I know there are still big rifts in the blogosphere between the Hillary supporters and the Obama supporters, and that's a shame.

I stand by my statement that it is a shame that we give voice to the McClurkins of the world, but not to those who would voice their own disagreement, in whatever way.

by emsprater 2008-11-08 09:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Perhaps we remember

I agree, and I don't for one minute think that anyone stated otherwise.

There's enough homophobia in the world that both sides pass it around at will.

by emsprater 2008-11-08 01:10PM | 0 recs
Re: No one is defending McClurkin

As I told someone on the other blog, acknowldeging a problem exists isn't the same as blaming or scapegoating an entre group of folks for any issue.

Saying there are MF snakes on the plane is simply acknowledging there are MF snakes on the plane, nothing more.

We have snakes on our plane.  We need to figure out what to do about it, and we will never figure that out if we don't have a discussion about it.  After all, isn't that the concept that made the Obama camp legitimize the apperance of McClurkin to begin with, open discourse?  Then let's have it!

by emsprater 2008-11-08 09:21AM | 0 recs
In case you missed it

The current hub-bub on the issue simply shows how little liberal progressives really know about the black church and the black community

And what, pray tell, does the diarist know about the black church and and the black community, after some fraction of a fraction voted in CA?

I'll tell you this: As a black man, I am embarrassed by those black people that voted for Prop 8. That is entirely different from agreeing my "race" owes you an apology, which is absurd and insulting.

I know scapegoating when I see it, and that is what is happening here. Do not think you can maintain the moral high ground while engaging in it, because this sort of broad brush criticism always backfires.

It's already starting to:

Three older men accosted my friend and shouted, "Black people did this, I hope you people are happy!" A young lesbian couple with mohawks and Obama buttons joined the shouting and said there were "very disappointed with black people" and "how could we" after the Obama victory. This was stupid for them to single us out because we were carrying those blue NO ON PROP 8 signs! I pointed that out and the one of the older men said it didn't matter because "most black people hated gays" and he was "wrong" to think we had compassion. That was the most insulting thing I had ever heard. I guess he never thought we were gay.

(from rod 2.0)

by Neef 2008-11-08 10:53AM | 0 recs
You are black, and I am gay.

There, the big issue has been stated.  Is there some importance to that at all?  NO.

First, I have never advocated, implied nor requested an 'apology' from anyone regarding prop 8.  

I'm also not 'scapegoating' anyone, and I call you out to provide a concrete example of where I have done so.

Your example, if true, is repulsive and should be rebuked.  But your decry of 'broad brush' packaging of folks should not be held by your hand either.

Herin lies the problem with discussing race and sexual orientation in America.  Any discussion of either usually degrades into unintended inferences being attributed to every utterance.  So how can we have this discussion without this, if one group or the other is too quick to yell 'racist' or 'bigot'?

The diarist may or may not know anything about black evangelicals, but to attribute any discussion of the issue to 'racist' intent is ludicrous, and is simply the broad brush in a different hand.  Most likely, black evangelicals are not all that different from white evangelicals.

by emsprater 2008-11-08 11:26AM | 0 recs
I'm not applying a broad brush

nor am I accusing you of it.

Our disagreement, if there is one, is if we can discuss entire communities of people with anything approaching objectivity.

Put another way, is there a statement that I can make about "gay people" that is anything less than a subjective generalization?

In my experience, gay people...

I mean, where do I go with that? Where do you go with saying "black people do X". I don't know what "black people" do and I am one.

by Neef 2008-11-08 01:08PM | 0 recs
Re: black america needs to teach tolerance

this will be obama's first real test.  does he in his soul believe in equality for all and have the courage to act on it.  or is he, as rev. wright said, just a politician.  let's hope for change.
by latina 2008-11-08 10:58AM | 0 recs
Re: black america needs to teach tolerance
Do you really think that with the economy, two Wars, a slumping housing market and all of the other crap that Obama will have to deal with, that THIS wil be his 'first real test'?
Are you serious?
by xodus1914 2008-11-10 04:48AM | 0 recs
Re: black america needs to teach tolerance

One does have to wonder aloud why with all the problems you cite as being more pressing than gay marriage or tolerance (I do agree they are) how did 'the church' decide in all it's infinite wisdom to spend so much money to defeat queers, now?

Couldn't all that money have been spent on homeless children or food for struggling families or health care for expectant mothers?

Honestly, swatting down queers was that important?

by emsprater 2008-11-10 07:45PM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

Same bigot with the same issues.  Asians and Catholics voted with prop 8 in similar numbers.  Latinos and White men also supported it, albeit not as heavily.

But what do you want to talk about?  How it's all the fault of TEH BLACK!  TEH BLACK IS TAKING OVER TEH PARTY!

by Jess81 2008-11-08 11:21AM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

It was forbidden to discuss this aspect of Obama's campaign before his election. It will not be welcome now either. Obama pandered to anti-gay hatred in his black constituents. He also turned out these voters in large numbers. The math in California added up to Prop 8's defeat. White liberals are oblivious to the ominous turn to the right that the black church  in America has taken and the hatred and bigotry that is now being preached from these pulpits.

by linfar 2008-11-08 12:26PM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

I know man.  The black church - like all churches, used to be to pro-gay.


by Jess81 2008-11-08 12:49PM | 0 recs
Re: That's a lie

You won't get a response.  After the whole Wailing Wall thing was shown up to be a hoax, she turned-tail and fled rather than admit she had been wrong.

by Jess81 2008-11-08 12:50PM | 0 recs
So now black churches

preach hate? Wow.

What do White churches preach?

by Neef 2008-11-08 01:17PM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

This is ridiculous.

by Dreorg 2008-11-08 01:28PM | 0 recs
Re: That's a lie

He pandered to it by going into a black church on MLK day to admonish the black community for their prejudice against gays.

Linfar just doesn't know what the hell "pander" means.

by the mystical vortexes of sedona 2008-11-08 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

Clinton Democrats were more likely to support prop 8 than Obama Democrats.

by Jess81 2008-11-08 01:40PM | 0 recs
His prayer on the wailing wall

said "Deer God pleez pass prop 8 lol!"  AMIRITE LINFAR??!

by JJE 2008-11-08 03:57PM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

BS. The math does not add up. If you go by the very suspect exit polls, the margin of yes votes over no in the black community was around 225,000. If the black vote was flipped the measure would have still passed. You can't blame 6% of the electorate for a 5% overall margin. Well, you can if you are trying to scapegoat them.

by MS01 Indie 2008-11-08 04:24PM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

"Hatred and bigotry that is now being preached from these pulpits"

Without mentioning Donnie McClurkin, prove it.

by xodus1914 2008-11-10 04:52AM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

Non-Black Votes in Favor of Proposition 8:

White Men:  51% of 31% of 10,325,615 votes:  1,632,480 Yes
White Women:  47% of 32% of 10,325,615 votes:  1,552,972 Yes
Latino Men:  54% of 8% of 10,325,615 votes:  446,067 Yes
Latino Women:  52% of 11% of 10,325,615 votes:   592,170 Yes
Asian/Native:  51% of 9% of 10,325,615 votes:  473,946 Yes

Total:  4,697,635 (9.3 times the maximum TOTAL number of Black votes in California.) 34645/1235

by skohayes 2008-11-08 12:44PM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

Alternative history is fun and all, but there is a reason it is frowned upon by real historians: unlike in the sciences, there is simply no way to accurately predict how things would have been different by changing one or more historical variables.

by rfahey22 2008-11-08 01:26PM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

Clinton Democrats were more likely to vote for prop 8 than Obama democrats.

Can you reconcile that?  Doesn't this just destroy your theory?

by Jess81 2008-11-08 01:41PM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

Bullshit. Both the Dailykos and Pam Spaulding figures are wrong. Period.I don't see anything that implies what your saying. Stop deflecting from the real issue that gay people came out for Obama and got stabbed in the back for their efforts.

by Iceblinkjm 2008-11-09 03:43AM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8

It's the same figures that people who want to scapegoat Obama are citing.  Look it up - page three of the exit polls on CNN.

CLINTON VOTERS WERE MORE HOMPHOBIC THAN OBAMA VOTERS.  You were stabbed in the back, just not by who you think.

by Jess81 2008-11-09 06:07PM | 0 recs
Re: From Rev. McClurkin to Prop. 8
I'm not looking to re-fight the primary. But

No need to keep reading beyond "but."
by username 2008-11-09 12:37AM | 0 recs


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