Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAKING DEMANDS.

I want to preface this by saying that we should recognize that we're in a bit of a bubble here.  MyDD has as much to do with how ordinary people think about politics as any other political blog- not very much.  For all the fire and brimstone we spout on here, it's important to remember that for many of us (myself included), politics, specifically as they relate to the Democratic party, are one of the most important things in our lives.  That's not how your normal average everyday "I got my news at 3pm from before I clicked back to work email" citizen thinks.  So what seems so monumental here on this blog is small potatoes to 90% of folks.  I think that in a few weeks, 95% of people are going to be rallying around our nominee and ready to FIGHT McCain!

But for now, it's still the endgame.  The whole Clinton vs. Obama thing is coming to a close.  Your first choice or not, Obama is going to be our nominee.  While it won't be officially cemented until early next week, it'll be undeniable as of tomorrow afternoon.  

Now, in our bubble, there are still those that don't get it. And today we have some more "gotcha" fun.  We've got a fiery pastor (yet again, since that worked SO well in derailing Obama the first time), and this one said some things regarding Hillary Clinton that admittedly weren't so nice.  These comments were said in a black church, and therefore, as sometimes happens, race was addressed.  And so was entitlement.

I think most of the comments were pandering a bit to the audience and not helpful.  Fine.  Barack Obama agreed with me- and immediately denounced them:

"As I have travelled this country, I've been impressed not by what divides us, but by all that that unites us," he said.

"That is why I am deeply disappointed in Father Pfleger's divisive, backward-looking rhetoric, which doesn't reflect the country I see or the desire of people across America to come together in common cause."

Obama didn't make these comments.  They weren't made at an Obama event.  He didn't write them.  He didn't repeat the point contained in them.  And he wasn't there to hear them.  But he denounced them anyway- partially out of respect to Hillary, and mostly out of respect to our country.  But was that good enough?  Not for some:

You want unity guys - start by issuing a no-holds-barred condemnation specifically aimed at what this hate-monger said.  Tell the world in no uncertain terms that you will not be associated with these hateful and sexist rants - attacks that are directed against a fine and decent woman and public servant.  Stand up to the haters - tell them that attacks on your colleagues in the US Senate are an attack on you and you condemn them without hesitation or equivocation.  


One thing seems clear though, Obama's apparent tolerance for these sexist and hateful attacks on Hillary - or women in general is definitely hurting him among that demographic of the electorate.  You'd think - since he doesn't seem to care about how a woman is attacked by his friends and associates - that winning us over at the polls would at least cause him to condemn Pfleger's hate speech.

I don't think that's what this diarist wants.  I think she wants him to say Hillary's name, because she thinks the whole diatribe was all about Hillary.  Well, she's wrong.  If you actually watch the tape as an intelligent Democrat, and not a fervent supporter, you can see that Hillary's being used as a parable.  And while I disagree with the pastor that race was a factor in Clinton's entitlement, let's be honest- she DID act as if she was entitled, and it put people off.  

From the very beginning, where she had 100 superdelegates before a single vote was even cast, to her remarks about this fight "wasn't going to be a very long one" and things would be "over" by Super Tuesday (and her lack of planning for the races following), to her supporters' repeated ignorance in proclaiming that "Barack Obama can never win!" while ignoring that nationally, Hillary has remarkably high negatives (fun fact- here's a non-partisan Zogby poll from October 2007, when Hillary was the clear front-runner, asking "Who would you NEVER vote for president?".  Guess who's number one?  Hillary.  Guess who's next to last?), there's been a sense that it is Hillary's time.

Well, the people have spoken.  And it's not quite her turn.

It's not for lack of trying.  She was a good candidate, and like most Obama supporters, had she won, I'd have marched behind her to the White House in November.  But Obama was a better candidate, and the end results indicate that America agrees.  That's not a national referendum on women.  That's not a denouncement of women's liberation.  That's not an excuse to call Obama supporters "boys" in diaries (you'll note the majority of Obama voters are women).  And that's damn sure not a reason to call me sexist solely because I don't have Hillary as my first choice to be the next president.

In the end it begs the question: have you stopped to think that maybe... perhaps... it's not about Hillary anymore?   Maybe it's about getting this country back on track, with a Democratic president, House, and Senate.   Maybe it's about what's best for ALL of the women, and men, in the USA, and to a bigger degree the world- not what's best for Hillary Clinton.

Maybe the reason the Rules Committee isn't going to decide to seat Florida and Michigan 100% is that they see that, and don't feel the need to bow to her will just because she wants them to.

Maybe the reason that the media is giving Hillary a hard time lately is because Obama is being respectful and isn't- and some pundits don't get why it's not time to go after McCain.

And maybe, just maybe, the reason that Barack didn't personally apologize to Hillary (for comments he had nothing to do with) is because it's more important to defend the people across the country that Pfleger indirectly insulted than one woman running for office who has already lost.  

Because at this point, it isn't about her.

Now some still don't get it, and rant on and on about how Obama should keep this in the news front-and-center by talking about it AGAIN, and how he should he be embarrassed by his association with Pfleger and denounce him, the church, and everyone who's ever stepped foot in it because of a misguided two minute attack on Clinton's sense of entitlement.  But if you stop- and breathe- and look at Pfleger and Saint Sabina, this so-called "church of hate" a little bit harder, you can see something different.  

The diarist mentioned above wants to use (and actually applauds the media for using) a two minute soundbite to paint Obama as supporting racism, even implying that funds have been funneled to Pfleger's programs in the name of supporing racist and sexist speech.  Well, let's look closer, without the spin:

Pfleger founded, and Obama has helped fund:
Saint Sabina Aids Clinic in Ghana -
San Sabina paid for the construction of a center that offers anonymous testing for HIV in the Northern region of Ghana and beyond, and lab service for other infectious diseases such a tuberculosis.  Each year Saint Sabina provides the monies to run the clinic.

Saint Sabina Social Services Department
This department was founded to meet the need of the community in providing food, clothing, counseling and human resource information to those going through difficult times.  This facility assists over 1,200 people per month.

Samaritan House
This program provides an apartment, mentor, job training, job placement and social service support to individuals who we removed from a community shelter.  They pay their rent, and utility bills for one full year.  Within the year the individuals are helped to become self-dependent and return to the mainstream of life.

Martin Luther King Youth Center
This center was put in place as a meeting place for youth in the community, with a warm and positive atmosphere.  

Thea Bowman Spiritual Advance Center
This retreat center was established in 1993.  The purpose of this center was to provide a location in the inner-city for churches and groups to come together to draw closer to God as one body and develop into mature Christians.

Employment Resource Center
This center was designed to help individuals find employment, learn job preparation, offer computer classes and to better prepare those for the work force.

The Ark
The Ark is dedicated to the youth in the community.  This is a positive alternative against gangs drugs and guns.  Father Pfleger says, "We must not just tell our kids to say no to gangs, drugs and guns, but we must give them something to say yes to." This center offers free programs 6 days a week to the youth of the community and serves 300 youth per day.

Saint Sabina HELP Hotline
(773) 4-8-3-H-E-L-P.  This hotline was established to help any youth get out of a gang and to turn their life around.  Also, anyone who wants to report drug and/or gang activity can make a report through this hotline.

Saint Sabina Elder Village - On July 24, 1999, Saint Sabina Church broke ground on an 80-unit senior building.  This facility opened in July of 2000.

Safe Homes for Kids - In 2003, Saint Sabina opened up in conjunction with the city of Chicago a Safe Home for Kids - A foster home run and maintained by Saint Sabina.  In 2004, a second home was opened.

A.G.A.P.E. Inc
In November 2003, Saint Sabina opened A.G.A.P.E., Inc. and African boutique and gift shop to allow entrepreneurs a place to show and sell their products with no commission.

WOW.  What a scumbag.  Obama should DEFINITELY condemn his entire life, everyone who goes to that church, and make sure they never get another dime.  I didn't want to waste space posting all the successful campaigns Reverend Pfelger undertook in the overrlooked, but still incredibly dangerous South Side of Chicago.  Campaigns against marketing alcohol and tobacco to youths.  Campaigns against the Jerry Springer Show for their horrible treatment of women.  A one-man sting operation that caught, and stopped, 22 out of 34 stores from selling alcohol to minors.

All because he pointed out what a lot of people think- that Clinton acted entitled- but did it clumsily rather than tactfully.

Give me a f---ing break.

Obama's playing nice, and acting the part of an upstanding candidate.  But this type of Swift Boating, and particularly the aforemention diary and the thinking behind it, warrants a harsh response, and it's this- you lost, so stop making demands.  You don't get to demand anything out of Obama.  You're no longer in a position to do so.  If you feel Obama is disrespecting you by having past association with a man who is, by all means, an American HERO who most of the time stands for everything Democrats hold dear, but sometimes goes a little over the top in his speeches, then fine.  I don't care.  Don't vote for him.  Pout away if you must.

But know, as you sit at home and pout, that you're in the minority- by FAR.  America fell in love with Obama once they heard his ideas, his message, and what he would do.  So you didn't, fine.  But the "we're all going to stay home and not help" message, in reality, is true for a few die-hard Clinton supporters who read blogs, and a chunk of Appalachia where 20% won't vote for a black man.  He doesn't have a "woman problem" any more than he has a "white people problem"- you and I know that once Clinton and surrogates aren't on TV denoucning the "sexism" that Clinton has faced every 5 minutes, the issue will die.  She has faced some sexist crap from the media- but I have been asking for an example of something from Obama's mouth, and I've yet to get an answer.

I don't think it'll be like that, for the most part.  I am nostalgic for mid-2004.  Not November, when we lost, but in August, when things were decidedly going our way.  Sure, Kerry wasn't the greatest.  I wanted Kucinich, then Dean, then Edwards, then Kerry.  We got Kerry.  But hell- we were going to boot Bush's ignorant ass right out of the White House anyway.  

When I marched in the streets, and narrowly avoided arrest by a near-facist NYPD, at the 2004 RNC in New York City, coldly placed in my town to capitalize on 9/11 sentiment.  I marched with hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers.  Most of which voted for Hillary in the primary this year.  And I want to march with them again.  We weren't squabbling about our candidates.  We were focused, and ready.

Because this isn't boys versus girls.

This isn't Hillary versus Obama.

This is now Obama versus McCain.

Right versus wrong.

Four more horrible Bush years versus real, honest, change.

I want us all together.  I do want unity.  And the demands you make that say "Obama MUST ___ to get my vote" may or may not be met- I can't say if they will be.  But if they aren't, and you can't bring yourself to vote for your party's candidate, then fine- you go ahead and sit it out, even vote McCain if you're that self-loathing.  But you be sure to get the hell out of the way.  There's going to be a lot of us marching to the White House in November behind Obama, and we wouldn't want you to get scared with all the noise.

UPDATE: Woo-hoo- been reading MyDD for 4+ years, and first time on the rec list. To celebrate, here's a picture I took at the GIANT protest march during the 2004 RNC... one of my favorite pictures. Thanks!2004 RNC Protest

Tags: 2008 Primaries, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Pfleger (all tags)



Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Excellently put together diary! Kudos to you, sir!

by ragekage 2008-05-30 09:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Much appreciated, and even more so considering the source.  Thanks!

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

What, me? Heh, gimme a break, man. Hell, this is better than I couldda whipped up. Hopefully it'll get all w(rec)ked up.

by ragekage 2008-05-30 09:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK


by spacemanspiff 2008-05-30 09:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

This diary wants more recs.

by Jess81 2008-05-30 10:08PM | 0 recs
Nothing will be good enough for trolls.

There are a great many people here who wouldn't vote for Obama if he sent them personal jetskis and handwritten pardons.

They are trolls. Refute them, but don't engage them.

by Firewall 2008-05-30 09:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Nothing will be good enough for trolls.


Did I mention I've always hated Obama?

by ragekage 2008-05-30 09:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Nothing will be good enough for trolls.

Hey wait- I want a jetski too!!!

Oh wait, I forgot, all of us Obama supporters are handsomely paid by the campaign.  So we can just buy one with our riches.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Nothing will be good enough for trolls.

D'oh! How could I have forgotten?

by ragekage 2008-05-30 09:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Nothing will be good enough for trolls.

I was going to vote for him until I heard he had lots of paid bloggers swarming the internets. Apparently, I've been blogging without pay for weeks!

by Firewall 2008-05-30 09:20PM | 0 recs
Screw the jetski

I want one of these

by juliewolf 2008-05-31 03:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag?

Well said.  This man has done good works.  He is flawed, but he is a good man, on balance.

We all have said and done things we wish we could take back, and perhaps some things we aren't smart enough to know we should take back.

We're human.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 09:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag?

Yeah we are.  And Obama did the right thing- denounced the comment without denouncing the man.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag?

I suggest then you look again at the life's work of John Hagee, Pat Robertson and other right wing preachers of hate and division routinely (and rightfully) demonized by the Left.  

I guess they are only human.

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-05-31 01:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag?

I'd personally like a lot of these guys thrown out of the public conversation.  Mega-church pastors seem to be quite good at drawing a crowd, but also a little on the kooky side.

Unfortunately, this is a country where politics still centers around the church, so you have to hold your nose and pick the one that does the most good on balance.

Meanwhile, when do we get to start talking about Hillary's connections to the Family, that delightful right-wing Bible camp that really wants to screw up DC.  I'm frankly amazed that we've heard so little about her hanging around End-Timers and those that would put all of us rational thinkers in camps when they get the chance. 2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html

by odinseye2k 2008-05-31 05:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

just to be clear on this, you are demanding some vague body of people to stop making demands? So the only demands can be against "that woman" then?

by zerosumgame 2008-05-30 09:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

No demands against that CANDIDATE (nice try, but troll-ish) other than that she stop tearing down the nominee for president of the Democratic party.  And I'll make that demand as often as possible.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

just that she drop out. your selective memory may indicate other issues...

by zerosumgame 2008-05-30 09:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Traditionally, the loser does, in fact, drop out.  But I'll hold off until Obama has the delegates.  Which will be Wednesday.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Are you talking to someone? Your post makes no sense.

by ragekage 2008-05-30 09:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

since it reflects the diary you are agreeing with me that the diary makes no sense. thanks

by zerosumgame 2008-05-30 09:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

No, you just continued to make no sense... but I'm gonna assume that's what you were going for.

by ragekage 2008-05-30 09:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag?

No, apparently you didn't get the point.

His audience would be specific - those who, at this website, attack Senator Obama for things other people said when he wasn't there, and I cannot imagine agrees with.

You wanna attack Obama?  Be my guest.  But please, try to attack him for the things he's done and said.  At the rate this crap is going, some here will be hitting him for things Kevin Bacon has done....

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 09:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag?

might get a better reception for that spin if that kind of thing did not originate from your guys so very often.

by zerosumgame 2008-05-30 09:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

It's obvious who this diary is addressing.  I'm sure it's even clear to you.

by Jess81 2008-05-30 10:10PM | 0 recs

...just WOW!!!

by hootie4170 2008-05-30 09:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK


This is about the direction America takes in the next 4 years, do we want to be on the same path as we were the past 8? (McCain). Or go on a better one? (Obama or Clinton).

Those who threaten to vote for McCain over Obama must have thought the past 8 years were just peachy.

by wiscogirl101 2008-05-30 09:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

She made quite a few  unfaltering points about Hillary Rodham Clinton in your disjointed diary .

However you lost me at the point where you said this new pastor represent the democrats and is an American Hero.

His words put him in league with the America hater Wright . Both are two peas in the same pond .

With regards to uniting I wish you luck in your efforts.

by lori 2008-05-30 09:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

that would be " You " not " She "

by lori 2008-05-30 09:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Do you seriously believe that a two minute sound bite that is ill thought out and ill considered overrules the last 25 years this guy has TIRELESSLY fought for the South Side community?

If so, best of luck in your efforts, you seem to need it.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

I didn't say that .

However just like Rev. Wright they both spew out hate speech , Anti American words , words inciting racial disharmony and frankly a bunch of crap not worth listening too.

Obama really doesn't have anything to apologize for on this one but I would be untruthful if I claim all of these rhetoric doesn't bother me.

by lori 2008-05-30 09:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

If you think someones formers pastors comments are more important that the issues like health care, Iraq, the economy..well, thats your choice.

I honestly don't care what Obamas pastor said, or Hillarys pastor or supporters.

I care about the next 4 years. Now who will be better for that, McCain, or Obama?

by wiscogirl101 2008-05-30 09:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Shit I'm Catholic...I wonder what people think of me going to a church whose pastors have been convicted of raping/molesting innocent children...I suppose I should find another denomination..

by hootie4170 2008-05-30 09:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

As a Catholic, you should immediately denounce and reject him for calling your church "the Great Whore."

Wait, what? That was McCain's guy? Oh, well, forget about it then. Must focus on Obama's pastors...

by CrazyDrumGuy 2008-05-31 02:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Not to flog a dead horse , but I think its pretty relevant in a presidential contest , if a leading contender has an adviser , someone he claimed as his uncle and with such close relationship who goes around damning America , cursing white folks and saying all that crap.

The question for Obama would be why he decided to sit through that crap.

Thats a question he can't answer .

Its either he believed some of that crap ( Which I personally don't think he does ) or he just didn't have the character to leave the church due to political consideration.

Thats a valid issue for so many voters even though you seem to want to dismiss it.

by lori 2008-05-30 09:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Fine. You think its relevant. I do not, and I suspect most people do not either unless 1) They're planning to support McCain anyway (Hannity and Limbaugh going on ad-nauseum about it), 2) Their economic situation is just peachy and they can afford to  care about what someones paster said years ago.

As I said, I do  not. Again, if you feel that a pastors comment is more important than increasing health care costs, increase gas and food costs, job losses the past 5 months, and general incompetence the past 8 years regarding Iraq and the economy..well, thats you're choice.

Not mine. I choose to vote for the Democrat , and I have no qualms about overlooking some of their faults.

by wiscogirl101 2008-05-30 09:50PM | 0 recs
I know Father Plaeger has

done good work - I'm from Chicago.  but he really disappointed me here.  And I have defended him in comments here and other sites - but that's over.

He's trying to be a black preacher.  He's not.

He didn't say this "years ago."   - it is couched in body language and verbal language which is screamingly insulting to Sen. Clinton.  and Sen. Obama used him as an spiritual advisor - that is relevant.  He could have said what he did - somewhere other than the pulpit - in language that doesn't offend people.  Many people agree with what he said - or portions of it anyway without the adolescent bravado.  Plus how does it help race relations to see the people in Church enjoying this so very much.  

Now people on this blog (and I am beginning to think it's 50% who aren't some kind of paid bloggers, just having fun or trying to create a situation where others won't comment)may feel as you do; but the people who blog here and a few other sites are not the majority of Americans who are disgusted with these clergymen. Unfortunately, (or not - depending on your view) - this reflects on Sen. Obama.

And is this money tax money?  Problematic if they are selling their candidate or tearing down another.  The IRS may be looking at this.  

I have always said I will vote for Sen. Obama should he be the nominee but I may write in Hillary or just not vote after watching these tapes as well as listening to the tepid apology Father Pfleger offered.  He'll win Illinois anyway.  

by Xanthe 2008-05-31 03:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Have you ever thought about it this way?

Trinity has for sale videos of all their sermons for the last 10 years, so about 5,000 sermons.  Now, I am sure HRC and McCain camps have watched every second of every sermon and all they could come up with were 4 sermons and about 3 minutes worth of crazy talk...Don't you wonder what was preached in the other 4,900 sermons?

I mean it must have not been terrible stuff or we would have seen it.  Now I'm the first to admit that the snippets were way out of line, but I have viewed about 30 other sermons from Trinity and they are nothing like that.

Just for your consideration.

by hootie4170 2008-05-30 10:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

If the Clinton campaign were really interested in digging through Wright's old sermons for dirt, you would have heard about Rev. Wright in December and January, not in April.

I know, I know, they're an evil campaign and she'll say anything and do anything to be elected, but just think about it.

by Steve M 2008-05-30 10:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

So you don't think her campaign rummaged through Rev Wright material, or the media?

by hootie4170 2008-05-30 10:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

The question for Obama would be why he decided to sit through that crap.

Thats a question he can't answer .

Its either he believed some of that crap ( Which I personally don't think he does ) or he just didn't have the character to leave the church due to political consideration.

Are you a member of a church or another faith community?

I am and have been all my life, and if my pastor said stuff I disagreed with - which my pastors have, on numerous occasions - I simply disagree with it and continue to be a member of the community.

You see, you're omitting two possible answers from your ridiculous dichotomy there.  It isn't either that he believed everything Rev. Wright ever said or he didn't leave because he didn't have the character.  The other two possible answers are as follows:

  • The Rev. Wright's Greatest Hits were a very, very small fraction of all the things he's said, with the vast majority being words of love, tolerance, and justice.  That you didn't see them on the news media apparently didn't feel like going to the trouble to educate yourself and find more context doesn't mean that they weren't there.  There is a distinct and, I think, likely possibility that Barack Obama wasn't in the pews that Sunday and didn't know about this 0.5% of Rev. Wright's sermons that were hateful, and was only aware of the 99.5% that weren't.
  • Obama was aware that Rev. Wright said some controversial things, but concluded that Rev. Wright is not the very embodiment of TUCC, and that all the other things about the church - their vibrant worship, the people there, their work in the community - outweighed whatever bad there was about the church.

There's more to TUCC than the thirty seconds you saw of Rev. Wright, and there's more to St. Sabina than Fr. Pfleger.  Those two faith communities do a lot of good in their neighborhoods and cities.  Those two pastors gave a lot of sermons that didn't involve damning America or insulting Hillary Clinton - sermons that brought people together, that lifted people up spiritually, that brought them to a deeper commitment to justice and reconciliation.  That you seem willing to ignore that in order to brand these people as hateful demons is, in my opinion, an incredibly narrow-minded, shallow, and intellectually lazy thing to do.

by mistersite 2008-05-31 06:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

I see what you're saying.  But you should consider the source- a black church in a very poor, very overlooked part of town.  The South Side has been ignored for years, and while I thought the Clinton years were good for the country, the sad truth is it passed them by- like every other president.

I disagree that he "spews hate speech".  You should look closer.  Look at what he says on a day-to-day.  Ignore the inelegant comment from today, and dig deeper- this guy is a legitimately good guy, who's learned that even as a white guy trying to help people that aren't getting helped, sometimes you have to make some noise.

I apologize for knee-jerking up there, rereading your original comment reads a lot more intelligent than I mistakenly thought it did.  I'm sorry, if I could edit my comment I would.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:33PM | 0 recs
I'm sure that he's done many good works

He's also a self-righteous blowhard in a penguin suit, dismissing Clinton's good works for the poor and painting her emotions in sexist terms.   Anyway, he's a sideshow freak in Obama's circus.   All candidates have a circus.  McCain has Bush and Pastor Hagee.  Hillary has Mark Penn and Bill.   We shouldn't paint the ringmaster with the same brush as their circus freaks.

by activatedbybush 2008-05-31 01:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Ahh, lori, I would have never guess you held these sentiments! But hey, thanks for the good wishes for unity, it'll happen no problem. You'll be there, too, I'm sure!

by ragekage 2008-05-30 09:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

I would probably be there .

I am just not sure , I am battling some ideological issues with Obama but the odds of me not voting for him are slim because of the pro choice issue .

However how slim the possibility is its still there and thats a danger sign if it holds up through the general.

In short I haven't made up my mind on any of the 3 .

Even if it is Clinton against Mccain , its not automatic I'll vote for her .

I said about a year ago Mccain would pose the biggest problem for democrats , this was when everyone thought he was dead .

I remember saying it then that if republicans came to their senses and nominated Mccain we would be in a lot of trouble.

The funny thing is , I think back then it was Steve and Shaun I was making the comment to.  

by lori 2008-05-30 09:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Miss me or mad at me?

by hootie4170 2008-05-30 09:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

that would be miss you , honey.

something would have to be out of kilter for me to be fit to be tied especially at you.  

by lori 2008-05-30 09:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Glad to hear!!!  You know I'm gonna be working on you for the next six months to support Obama ;)

by hootie4170 2008-05-30 09:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Yeap , you are just gonna be a bug right lol

Okay let me make it easy for you , he can do at least 4 things that would make me totally convinced to vote for him instead of being on the fence

1 ) stop with all of that meeting face to face with the holocaust denier without preconditions , wiggle you way out of that position. Maintain a hardline as president but give you cabinet to the highest level all the leeway they want.

2) Let me know you are going to be responsible with dealing with Iraq , No precipitous withdrawal , we must have some long term presnce in there to help stabilize the place . We are on the right track now and we don't want to take steps backwords .

3) In terms of foreign policy state that " the spread of freedom and Liberty " would be the driven force . We should stand with folks all around the world who want freedom.

4 ) An Unshakeable commitment to Isreal , the deterrence policy of Clinton would be great.

5) Do not cut the military budget or spending on improved weapons.

6 ) Emphasize fiscal responsibility and balanced budgets , tax cuts for the middle class .

7 ) Stay away from the second amendment , the pledge of allegiance and never again say what you said about small town America because that is a fundamental misreading of rural folks , these are there values and way of life for centuries.

8) Tough verifiable border security before any other step , when we have that then we can decide on Comprehensive Immigration .

9 ) stop the lecturing on the flag pin and wear it .

10 ) Get away from these America hating pastors , it bothers the hell out of a lot of folks and many won't vote for him based on that.

11 ) Stick to your pro choice position but emphasize less abortion , would appeal to some Reagan democrats . Stay away from gay marriage issues.

There you go if he can accomplish that , I would say he has my vote 99% .

If he adds Hillary Clinton as VP , I don't see how I don' vote for that ticket .

Or Warner/Webb.

by lori 2008-05-30 10:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

wow thats not 4 , thats 11.

shows you how much issues i have with obama lol

by lori 2008-05-30 10:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK


1. You won't get this.

2 & 3. Tied together...You cannot force Democracy in the Middle East, Bush tried and failed (Read McClelland).  IMO, The Middle East is based on religious principles not democracy and anytime the US intervenes with their democracy agenda we are seen as bullies.  Iraq needs to figure out what type of country they want to be, and I don't think we should put our good men and women in a position of referees...The Shia, Sunni and Kurds need to figure this out themselves, and we must be clear to the Iraqi government it is time for them to step up to the plate..

4. I do believe Obama will make this clear.  Israel is America's staunchest ally in the ME...However, regarding Palestine, they must continue to negotiate..

5. I think we must cut down on how we spend in Iraq 5 billion a month in which 4 billion goes for infrastructure...If we cut this down there would be no need to cut the military budget...However this ties in to your request for #6.

6. We won't be able to balance the budget if we continue for 10 years in Iraq...Obama already is proposing tax cuts for the middle class.

7. I think he is against assault weapons.

8. Don;t know

9. McCain doesn;t always wear one

10. He's already done with Wright

11. He already does that..

And it's gonna be Warner, you heard it here first!!

by hootie4170 2008-05-30 10:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

well if its warner that ticket looks super appealing then.

If it is Hillary Rodham Clinton it would even be better , I love warner he was my first choice before he dropped out if we cut the rhetoric She brings more to the ticket than he does.

by lori 2008-05-30 10:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Read this...It talks about how suspicious it was when Warner dropped out and how he hasn't endorsed yet....It's near the end..I really think it will be him...8 years for Obama and 8 years for Warner. k/2008/05/obamas-vp-out-of-sight-out-of. php

by hootie4170 2008-05-30 10:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

possible .

will see.

not a bad choice but won't pacify a lot of clinton supporters

by lori 2008-05-30 11:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Please please please stop pushing this - he's a lock in the Senate race in Virginia, which is about eight billion times more important than the Vice-Presidency. Warner on the Senate ticket here means 1) an all-Dem Senate delegation from Virginia and 2) a reverse-coattails win for Obama in Virginia. Warner in the veep slot only gives us an Obama win - we don't have another Dem as strong as him.

by authority song 2008-05-31 05:02AM | 0 recs

An honest policy-centric discussion instead of invective on a MyDD recommended diary. Who'd have thought? Thank you for this. Mojos for you.

In all honesty, Lori, your desired positions appear well to the right of either of the candidates. And for a second there I thought, she probably votes republican pretty regularly. She isn't going to vote Democratic this fall, no matter what.

On the other hand, if you're a sign of the broader appeal the democrats apparently have this year, then who am I to be cynical?  If nothing else, your post helps make the point that not all of America is as ideologically polarized as the MSM makes them out to be.

Glad to have you on board. If there's even a slim chance that you'll be voting for our nominee in the fall, I'll take it.

by Sumo Vita 2008-05-31 05:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Wow -- Republican much?


  1. In terms of foreign policy state that " the spread of freedom and Liberty " would be the driven force . We should stand with folks all around the world who want freedom.
  2. An Unshakeable commitment to Isreal , the deterrence policy of Clinton would be great.
  3. Do not cut the military budget or spending on improved weapons.

Jeez. #3 & 4 could have been written by Norman Podhoretz, and #5, Zounds!  

#4 & 5 are my faves --  

4: Yep, let's guarantee a nuclear response to an attack on Israel. Not like they have any nuclear weapons or delivery systems.  What?  You mean they do?  What does Clinton's deterrence policy actually accomplish, other than putatively appeal to Jewish American voters?  Yep, I want a candidate who won't be afraid to swing our nuclear shvants around.  Oy.

5: Oh, by all means, improved weapons systems. Because we all know they are such a good idea and contribute so much to our security (caution: long PDF linked, worth the read).

And yes, don't want to get near that icky gay marriage issue (#11).  I can't think of anything to say to that demand that won't get me troll rated as a personal attack.    

I don't want Obama to meet your demands, and I believe you're delusional if you think that Sen. Clinton would meet them.  Maybe McCain is your best bet.  And don't let the progressive Democratic Party hit you in the ass on your way out.

by Twin Planets 2008-05-31 05:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

My ears are burning.  I always felt McCain had a shot to get back into this thing, even back when he had totally been left for dead.  I got some funny looks when I would say I was concerned about McCain and that Giuliani had no shot.

by Steve M 2008-05-30 10:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

I remember you saying that because so many were dismissing it then .

They had totally ruled him out , I just had a feeling he was going to make it because he was the only one that could possibly save them from a bloodbath and the powers that be would realize what was so obvious.

by lori 2008-05-30 10:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Setting aside the remark for a moment, do you acknowledge the good works this man has done in his community?

Now, weigh those remarks against a body of work that is full of compassion, kindness, and care.  Do you really think he's a scumbag for something he said?  You're welcome to your opinion, but frankly if this is the standard we're going to use, then this website is full of truly tragic and bad people, of all stripes, supporting all candidates.

Why is it we cannot let others live imperfect and irrational, angry lives (from time to time) just as we ourselves do?

What he said was insulting, mean-spirited, and truly stupid.  I gladly reject and denounce what he said.  I'm glad he apologized as quickly as he did, though that obviously does not undo what he did.

But do I reject and denounce this man for that remark?  Not on your life!  I knew of him prior to this, and I know of his works.  I am not a man of faith, and I am skeptical of the good that it can do.  This clergyman has effected positive change for those who need it.  His faith, and his character, have served his parishioners well.

We've got to get out of this cycle of anger, aggression, and attacks.

If Jesus could have imperfect and flawed cohorts, why can't the rest of us?  Why do we have to hold our friends and acquaintances to such high standards?

And, no, I am not comparing Jesus to Obama, or vice versa.  I just want to make the point.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 09:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Great work. I really don't know what he was thinking when he made that comment, he should have known better. But its such a shame to see a man who's life work has helped so many people get judged the first time most people ever hear him speak.

by BlueGAinDC 2008-05-30 09:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

We don't have to let people like this get Swift Boated.  Dems are supposed to be better than this, and I don't see why we don't.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:30PM | 0 recs

He should have.

However, I think most Chicagoans would tell you that Father Pfleger is very much a firebrand, and making points 'artfully' isn't his strong point.  He makes his points passionately - and that passion sometimes comes at the expense of common sense and common courtesy.

Father Pfleger is easily one of the most recognizable community leader in Chicago - he's been at the forefront of all sorts of causes.  Immigration reform, community violence, affordable housing --- if there's a cause of the downtrodden and forgotten in our society, you can be sure that Father Pfleger will be leading a rally for it.

His passion - his mouth - has gotten him in trouble before.  

Some time ago, he led a rally for new state gun control legislation (I believe Daley was present, too).  Pfleger's neighborhood is one of the many that's facing a crisis of kids being shot.   At this rally, he made some very, very wrong statements about the owner of a gunshop that had apparently supplied an inordinate number of the guns that were being used to murder schoolchildren.   He essentially... well... he suggested the gun shop owner deserved some of his own medicine.

It was awful - Pfleger was chastised (to put it lightly) by the archdiocese.  He apologized.

It was less than a shining moment for him.

Pfleger made two mistakes...

As I said, the first is that he once again let his passion get the better of courtesy, respect, and common sense.

The second, though, is that Barack Obama is NOT one of the downtrodden and forgotten.  He doesn't need a lion like Michael Pfleger 'defending' him, especially not in the awful way he did.

by zonk 2008-05-31 08:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Uh, I guess I'm not an intelligent Democrat or something, but saying the part about Hillary was just a parable strikes me as a little absurd.  The fact that there's arguably some larger point to be made about "white entitlement" doesn't change the fact that he most definitely was talking about Hillary.

Now, if it's really the considered opinion of the diarist and all the people who are cheering this diary that Hillary really did feel entitled to the nomination BECAUSE SHE IS WHITE, well then, I'm a little stunned but everyone has a right to their opinion.

I believe it is political reality that Obama could have scored some points with female voters if he had specifically defended Hillary from this attack instead of just issuing a generic statement of disappointment.  This is true whether you think he  "should have to" or not.

by Steve M 2008-05-30 09:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Well no- that's the point.  I think Hillary felt entitled, but not because she was white.  I think he was talking about white entitlement to a black church, and decided to use an easy example- Hillary.  But it's inelegant and not wise to do so- and that's my only complaint with Pfleger.

Sometimes it's not about scoring points- but doing what's right.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Nobody here, that I've seen anyway, thinks that she feels entitled because she is white.

Some of us think she feels entitled because she's Hillary.  That's not hate speech, that's just experience.  You don't have to like or agree with that, of course, but call a spade a spade.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-30 09:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

I think the claim that she felt entitled because she was white was pretty darn inflammatory, to a degree where it's not really cool to say "okay, maybe it wasn't because she's white, but there's a deeper truth there."  The whole point of the diatribe was racial, and if you agree that the racial point is unfair as it pertains to Hillary, then he shouldn't have said it plain and simple.

The point about Obama needing to reach out to women voters is more pertinent.  This diary takes the easy out by hiding behind "he's under no obligation to say something."  Obligation is not the point.  The fact that McCain gets to come out of this episode looking far, far more gracious than Obama is the point.  Frankly, it sucks.  Extending an apology to Hillary really wouldn't have killed anyone.

by Steve M 2008-05-30 09:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

You know, honestly...this is such a catch 22.

Certain Clinton supporters have called for Obama to speak out about sexism, apologize for derogatory things said by supporters directly referencing Clinton...but what if he actually did?

I can see those same supporters saying things like "she doesn't need a man to speak for her" etc.  

The same goes for the "unity" stuff.  Clinton has also called for unity, but Obama is the one who gets the crap for it.  What do these people want to hear, "Screw ya, I don't need your vote."?  Really, in all of this, he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

by asherrem 2008-05-30 09:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

I think the subset of Clinton supporters that consists of dead-enders is really not the audience you need to worry about.  Let them feel whatever they feel.

There's an awful lot of Clinton supporters, particularly women, who would have thought it was really classy of Obama if he had apologized to her.  Set aside whether he was under any obligation or whether the same courtesy has been extended to him or whatever, the fact is that he's going to be the nominee and he could have scored a free point with these people whose votes he's going to want.  What, exactly, would have been the downside of an apology?  What group of people would it have hurt him with?

by Steve M 2008-05-30 09:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

You are right in that Obama apologizing to Clinton wouldn't have hurt anything.

But really, why does he have to?  He isn't the one who said it.

Remember the "sweetie" stuff?  Obama personally called the reporter and apologized to her.  That was necessary--he said something to the reporter that offended her.

Had Obama apologized to Hillary for this pastor's remarks, to some it would have been the same as acknowledging he feels the same way.

by asherrem 2008-05-30 09:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Again, "why does he have to" misses the point.  This is now the third time I have said so.

I may not know much about politics, but when you can do something that scores points with an important group of voters, and not lose points with anyone at all, refraining from doing it "because you're not obligated to" strikes me as quite foolish.

This is not about people who think less of Obama because he didn't apologize to Hillary directly.  This is about people who could have had their opinion of Obama improved, but didn't because he figured he was under no obligation.  A missed opportunity, in my book.

by Steve M 2008-05-30 10:18PM | 0 recs
You're right

He definitely could have.

But here's the thing - Father Pfleger isn't the 'caricature/crazy man' to Obama that we've seen on TV.   No, I don't know their relationship, but I do know that Pfleger is a long-time activist, relatively well-known in Chicago.  He'd certainly be well known to someone that was once a south side community activist and then state senator.

It's a tough line to tread - on one hand, for better or worse, Obama has shown a stubborn/obtuse/stupid/courageous (you pick) aversion to using people as political pawns.  

Now - that doesn't mean he couldn't have more strongly addressed the substance of what Pfleger said, but I'm sure there was some balancing between not wanting to throw Pfleger himself under the bus.

by zonk 2008-05-31 08:09AM | 0 recs
Nice work! /eom

by Liberal Monk 2008-05-30 09:29PM | 0 recs
He doesn't have to do anything. Or win.

He demands unity, that's his choice. It's our choice not to cede his demands.

by catfish2 2008-05-30 09:29PM | 0 recs
Re: He doesn't have to do anything. Or win.

That's true.  But as requested, please, do it out of the way, or go ahead and sign up on McCain's site.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:33PM | 0 recs
OK what about the other voters

who do not blog at MyDD and feel the same way?

by catfish2 2008-05-31 03:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Thats right. You have the choice to help continue the next 4 years of Republican rule by voting for McCain or staying home instead of voting to put a Democrat in office.

But I've been told you're basically a troll around here anyway, so  oh well.

by wiscogirl101 2008-05-30 09:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

For the record this was directed at catfish2, not the diarist.

by wiscogirl101 2008-05-30 09:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

no worries- i figured!

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag?

Thank you for educating me about the important work done by Father Pfleger that I am too busy/lazy/stingy to do. May God bless him and thank you for this diary.

by Roberta 2008-05-30 09:42PM | 0 recs
Obama's denunciation was forceful

One thing we've learned during this campaign is that Barack Obama uses a measured tone. It was his "failure" to crucify Louis Farrakhan in the debate that got Hillary Clinton to challenge him to "reject and denounce" the man.

But when he does denounce somebody he uses a specific frame: divisiveness. His Philadelphia race speech castigated Jeremiah Wright primarily for the divisive nature of his remarks. Moreover, they were "backward looking," stuck in a cynical world shaped and defined entirely by Jim Crow. Obama's entire candidacy is premised on moving beyond that backward-looking divisiveness, even when it comes from those on his side.

So that's why Obama, again, criticized Father Pfleger's comments as "divisive" and "backward-looking." To some, those are tame and generic terms. But to Obama, they define what is at fundamental odds with his whole character and candidacy. It was as forceful a denunciation as you'll ever see in public from a man who still respects much of Fr. Pfleger's life work.

by elrod 2008-05-30 09:44PM | 0 recs
Agree, but he missed an opportunity

First off, I do not believe he owes Hillary an apology. But it would have been a smart political move, and gone a long way toward improving many of Hillary's supporters' opinion of him, if he had simply (but forcefully) said something to the effect that he does not agree with what Pfleger said about Hillary feeling entitled and/or entitled because she's white. The generality of his statement did not in any way address that with specificity. Is that because he believes what Pfleger said is true? If he does not believe that, he should say so straight out or he will get no chops from the Hillary camp.

Remember during the early debates when he stood up firmly to say that he did not believe Biden is a racist? That got him kudos in my book.

But he has never done the same with Hillary. Instead, he has allowed "the Clintons are racists/race baiters" meme to grow in this campaign. He has done nothing to stop it. That has deeply offended Hillary supporters who know that meme is untrue. During one of his recent interviews he was asked directly if he thought the Clintons had engaged in race baiting and he said "No", but you'd be hard pressed to find any reference to that in the MSM or any of the blogs. I wonder how many even of us die hard political junkies know he said that?

That is a divisive issue which he has done little to correct, and it is not (or at least is no longer) to his benefit to allow it to continue. This is one reason that when he makes complimentary statements about Hillary her supporters do not believe he is sincere.

He wants unity and an end to divisiveness in America? He should start by trying to end it within his own party. There is a basic contradiction there: He talks about reaching across the aisle, but fails to reach across within the Democratic party when he has the opportunity to do so.

by Swedie 2008-05-31 01:20AM | 0 recs

Obama certainly doesn't owe Clinton an apology for this, except in the manner the best of us express our regret and "apologize" when we see others hurt or defamed in ugly ways and wish it were not so.

Obama has a problem -- a big problem -- bringing Clinton supporters into his fold and uniting the party behind him.  When this sort of trash talk gets air time it behooves the leader of the party to address it head on and in no uncertain terms like a true unifying leader.  If the race is truly over (and it is) Obama needs to see these opportunities for outreach moving beyond adversarial distance from all things Hillary towards inspired leadership of her supporters.

To be honest, sometimes it feels like Obama resents the support Clinton has recieved from certain demographics in how he seems to ignore the diviseness that got us here.  He now needs to go strong and long against ageism, sexism and hatred against white people if he hopes to unify the party and win in November.

I read alot of rhetoric about how I'm supposed to "unify behind our candidate" but I'm still waiting for Obama to make his first real effort to speak to me.  It's HIS JOB to unify the party and earn my trust, not the other way around.

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-05-31 02:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Exactly

You make good points, but I take issue with the idea that unification is "HIS JOB".

Correction: it's OUR job, if we want a Democrat in the WH come November. Stop buying into the entitlement being peddled on this site that your vote has to be bought by unilateral surrender or groveling by the nominee. That won't happen, and it should not happen. This is about the kind of life you want for yourself, your loved ones, your country, and your planet over the next 4 years and beyond.

by Sumo Vita 2008-05-31 05:28AM | 0 recs
If you tried real hard

do you think you could have come up with a worse choice of words to use than "entitlement", "surrender" and "grovel"?

I don't recall asking for any of the above, and your choice of words does nothing to further your main point.

Yes, it IS our job to unite behind the Democratic nominee, but Obama could make it easier for the 17 million+/- people who voted for Hillary if he tried a little harder. So could you.

As it says in the Bible, "A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."

by Swedie 2008-05-31 08:05AM | 0 recs
Point taken

I never claimed that you asked for either surrender or groveling. I did claim that this sense of entitlement is being peddled on this site. Noting the tenor of argument on this site over the past several months, I must conclude that my choice of words were sadly appropriate.

However, your scriptural quotation was well received. Political posturing does arouse the passions, not always to the desired ends.

by Sumo Vita 2008-06-01 09:42PM | 0 recs
As a Clinton supporter,

I dislike the tone of certain parts of your diary. I find some of it to be unnecessarily harsh.

On the other hand, reading the last few paragraphs intensified my own yearning for unity. I miss 2004, too. I miss the way we came together for Kerry, even though many of us preferred Dean. I remember all the hard work I did, which was more for the sake of the country than Kerry himself. I miss that unity -- that "oneness" with like-minded people. I can't wait to feel that way again.

So... recommended, despite your less than favorable portrayal of Hillary.

by sricki 2008-05-30 09:57PM | 0 recs
Re: As a Clinton supporter,

Well, thanks... I appreciate it.  Frankly, I was pissed when I started writing- Alegre's ridiculous diary sent me over the edge.  But those feelings are fleeting, as they should be- the goal is fixing this country after 8 horrible, horrible years.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 10:06PM | 0 recs
Yes, our anger is usually fleeting,

and I believe unity will come easily enough. Once the primary ends, one good, hard look at the country will remind everyone why they can't afford to sulk in November.

by sricki 2008-05-30 10:10PM | 0 recs
Free Cookies!

Can't we all agree that labeling any person, any where,a racist, scumbag, or anything of that ilk based on one thirty second sound clip is absurd? Especially when balanced all the good works that this man has done in his life?

by JENKINS 2008-05-30 10:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Free Cookies!

I agree. Not even the MSM is biting that hard on this. It's ridiculous.

Some people need to get out more.

by spacemanspiff 2008-05-30 10:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Part of this problem is a cultural divide.  Most white people, and other non-black groups for that matter, have no idea what goes on inside a black church.  So, for many, their entire glimpse into an actual black church consists of two inflammatory soundbites.  And so people wonder, is this what goes on every Sunday?  Is it all about "down with white people?"  Is it all about "God damn America!"  

So, a lot of misconceptions and assumptions are floating around, and of course, the MSM and Fox reinforce these fears and beliefs by replaying the same two clips over and over again, and demonizing Wright and Pfleger, reducing the sum of their ministries into two 30 second youtube videos.  

Ultimately, this reflects back upon the continuing racial separation between whites and blacks, and specifically, the racial segregation of churches.    Back to what Michelle Obama said the other day, what's driving the obsession over Obama's pastors is fear, pure and simple, fear of the Other.  

I hate that Pfleger's character and reputation has turned into an election issue, but, we should see it as an opportunity to address the issues continuing to divide this nation on the basis of race, issues that were left unfinished in 1968, when we saw the assassinations of two of our most important civil rights leaders, Martin Luther King, Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy.  40 years later, here's hoping that we, along with Obama, can help to continue the unfinished work.

by ProfessorReo 2008-05-30 10:19PM | 0 recs
The apology demand

I wish Wolfson hadn't done that.  

Hillary came out looking a lot better with the Auschwitz gaffe when she said nothing at all.  She should have just ignored this issue.  In all fairness, she never apologized to him for the RFK thing (not that she "had" to but, she could have).  He doesn't need to apologize to her specifically.  She scores no points by parsing his general apology and lambasting it for not mentioning her by name directly.  

by BPK80 2008-05-30 11:43PM | 0 recs
Re: The apology demand

Mojo to you - I think this is a first!

by interestedbystander 2008-05-31 01:50AM | 0 recs
Re: The apology demand

Are you the 28 year old who asked for a link the other day?  I sent you the info.  

by BPK80 2008-05-31 03:27AM | 0 recs
Re: The apology demand

In my dreams - 50 this year.

by interestedbystander 2008-05-31 03:59AM | 0 recs
Re: The apology demand

Ok, it was someone else who had a long username that started with a lower case 'i.'

by BPK80 2008-05-31 04:07AM | 0 recs
Hoooold on one minute

I agree that Obama isn't responsible for the rhetoric of a priest applauded in his church.  But for a moment let's take a look at another humanitarian and spiritual leader.  Through his leadership and the foundation he founded and promotes --
children are receiving hearing aids and cleft lip surgery in Nigeria.
at risk kids in Brooklyn have after-school programs with classes in musical instruments, art and computer literacy
Cambodian children are recieving their first pairs of shoes
Villages in Niger have clean water and AIDS counselling
The "forgotten children" of Somolia are receiving nutritious meals, healthcare and their only chance at an education
I could go on an on with the work of Operation Blessing, the life's work of ... Pat Robertson.

So the next time Old Pat says something ridiculously jingoistic, hate-filled, homophobic or ugly,  I'm going to remember this diary and remind myself I have no business condemning the man's entire life or the backward destructive evil bullshit that comes out of his mouth because, hey, he's not s scumbag, Pat Robertson is actually one hell of a great guy.  

I trust everyone else here will do as well.

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-05-31 01:47AM | 0 recs
Exactly, dude

All of this moral relativism going on here is sickening.  Big freaking deal that he's involved in "good works".  He's a priest, for crying out loud.  What exactly SHOULD he be doing if not good works??

The road of history is littered with individuals that can point to "good things" on their resumes yet still be held to account for the malevolent stuff they've been involved in, too.

I'm sure you can find dictators or war lords who can lay claim to doing something good for people.  What's the famous line about Mussolini?  He made the trains run on time, right?  

Now, before some dolt takes me out of context and says the idiotic "are you comparing Pfleger to Mussolini???", don't waste your time or mine.  I'm making the stark point that just because people can do "good" things in their lives doesn't mean they can't be held to absolute account for the other side of the coin.  

At the least, this church should be investigated for its political sermoninzing.  That means a potential loss of tax-free status.  

Obama doesn't "need" to apologize for Pfleger or Trinity.  But this is just one more example of why many white voters are going to be suspicious of Obama.  Aside from what Pfleger was saying about Clinton, he was also going on and on about what was tantamount to REPARATIONS.  Do people here honestly believe in the reparations concept?  If you do, I'm out of here.  

My ancestors emigrated here in the 20th century from a country that in no way was ever involved in the slave trade, and to a state that never engaged in slavery or Jim Crowism.  So I'm supposed to contribute my tax dollars to some family that lives in total freedom today --quite possibly at a greater standard of living than I'm enjoying-- for the sins of others? Not a chance.  Yet, Pfleger is the type of person that's invited to sermonize at the church Obama calls his own.  

At what point is it fair to question Obama's judgment or true feelings on matters such as these?  It's all about perception.  If I were to attend --just attend, mind you-- the preachings of some white separatist, what do you think people would say about ME? You know the answer to that.  

Trinity Church is an albatross for Obama.  He's pretty much boxed in, too.  He can only distance himself so far so as not to alienate his base, but not far enough to assuage the doubts of many white voters.  

His only hope in November is that the economy stays bad (high gas prices, etc.) and that Iraq is unstable.  If oil turns out to be a big bubble like I suspect it may, and Iraq stays fairly quiet until November, he's going to have problems.

Let's face it, the undeniable truth is that Bush, with a sub-30 percent approval rating, should make this a cakewalk for ANY Democratic nominee.  Yet Obama is running fairly even with McCain, lower in some polls and higher in others.  But fairly even.  Why is that?  This should be the biggest landslide year for Dems, ever.  But right now, it's not shaping up that way.  

I guess that's Hillary's fault, right?      

by DaTruth 2008-05-31 04:21AM | 0 recs
Back atcha, brother

Moral relativism.  Amen to that.  We could clog this stream for weeks with examples of despots and demons that prided themselves on their charitable works.  That doesn't make Pfleger a demon or a scumbag, but it does point out the irrelevancy of his good works to the ugliness of his recent rhetoric.

And if you ask me, it's almost as if Trinity is doing it's damndest to derail the election of Obama.  WTF with yanking the chain of people you need to WIN OVER?  Can't Obama do something to SET A DIFFERENT TONE in that church at least while the spotlight is on it?  Hell's bells, there are at least a million ways to honor the moment, inspire the congregation and stand proud and loud without going fire and brimstone on "white entitlement" right now.  Can't we revisit the subject in December or something?

I do disagree that Obama can only go so far without alienating his base.  I think Obama could go halfway to China without alienating his base and he doesn't seem to really grasp that quite yet.  Sometimes it's unclear to me if he's more interested in getting elected or reengineering American society.  The first is totally doable, the second is a prescription for November disaster.

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-05-31 04:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Exactly, dude

Yet, Pfleger is the type of person that's invited to sermonize at the church Obama calls his own.

That is pretty disturbing, isn't it? Also, Pfleger's apology was somewhat half-assed - more of an "I'm sorry you heard me say it" kind of thing.

I don't believe that the man would have said what he said if there wasn't at least some part of him that believed the words.

Trinity Church is an albatross for Obama.

Ya think? I know it's not fair to judge people by a youtube snapshot, but it was quite evident in this video and in the Wright videos that there were many congregants who were enjoying the sermons. I keep hearing that this was an isolated incident, but how many isolated incidents does it take before you start calling it a pattern?

No, Obama does not need to apologize for Pfleger's words, but I think he needs to explain how he has remained a member of this congregation.

by NJ Liberal 2008-05-31 05:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Hoooold on one minute

You hit exactly what I was thinking. Doing good works doesn't erase the the horrible things that come out of one's mouth.  And for the diarist to be calling this guy's statements "inelegant" strikes me as deeply disingenuous.  Call it what it was - racial pandering that goes against everything that Obama stands for.  

Now, I am not of the opinion that Obama was required to apologize for someone else's statement.  I think Obama statement was just fine.  He may have missed an opportunity to score some very easy points (as Steve M made clear above), but that's not my main issue with this diary.

I find it ridiculous to say that this pastor was using Hillary as a parable, and therefore that takes some of the venom out of his words.  He may have been making another point also, but he was most certainly using Hillary Clinton as a prime example of his point, and I find that abominable. His comments were far more than "inelegant", they were deeply offensive, and he doesn't get a free pass because he's done good works.  We are responsible for the totality of what we say do, not just part of it.

by Denny Crane 2008-05-31 07:11AM | 0 recs
You're right

And without going through 5 years of blog comments, I feel relatively certain that while I've often attacks the words of a Robertson or a Falwell or whatever, I've never bashed the person.

Now... I would point out a difference between Pfleger (and Wright, for that matter) and the more famous televangelists.

Pfleger and Wright have never sought and built what have become marketing empires - they've stayed rooted in their communities.

by zonk 2008-05-31 08:15AM | 0 recs
Help me understand "entitlement"

because, like Hillary, I'm a white woman and the sainted Father Pfelger has opened my eyes.  I'm concerned now that when I expect equal pay for equal work, a fair shot at advancement and opportunity and true gender-blindness, that's just my sense of white woman entitlement showing.  And the next time )of many) when I EXPECT to be promoted above the less qualified, less experienced male standing next to me, (who happens to be a person of color)  I'll actually be manifesting my sense of white entitlement.  
I'm shamed to realize that all this time I was supposed to be graciously stepping aside when I thought my  time had come, that I had all the right stuff and the credentials I needed, because my belief in myself was actually my racist mindset demanding what I believed my white skin entitled me to.

My only question is this -- when a person of color expects to succeed or triumph because of their life accomplishments...are they acting "entitled" as well?  Or does that entitlement thing only work for white folks?

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-05-31 02:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Help me understand "entitlement"

I mojo'd your earlier comment - and it was well deserved. This one, I have trouble with. It's replete with hyperbole and innuendo.

Gender bias is a legitimate grievance, but no one has ever suggested that you, or Hillary, or anyone else "graciously step aside" and give in to it. A lot of us do expect Hillary to graciously step aside as it becomes clear that the nomination battle is heading for a close, instead of stirring up fury and resentment among her supporters as she has been.

Finally, the issue isn't that she stepped up to this contest, or that she (and her supporters) believed that "her time had come". The problem is the overt resentmen, accusations of sexism, and downright hatefulness displayed against anyone that dares thwart her path to the nomination.

by Sumo Vita 2008-05-31 05:46AM | 0 recs

Glancing again at the diarist's title --

Stop making demands?  Short answer?  Hell no.  I intend to support Obama in November, vote for him and campaign for him.  In return?  I get to make demands of my candidate and my president.  And I won't stop demanding he meet my standards for both.

Obama is not about to become my guru next week or my king, I'm am not his acolyte or servant.  HE IS ACCOUNTABLE TO ME, not the other way around.

I would expect, or at least hope, that all those who contribute to his election (and even those who don't) will hold the man's feet to the fire, DEMAND he live up to both his promises and the needs of this country, make no excuses for him and hold him to the highest unforgiving standards.

All of us deserve nothing less.

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-05-31 02:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Yor concerns...

are noted.

by xdem 2008-05-31 03:06AM | 0 recs

Well said.

But what is the point of the diary listing Pfleger 's charitable activities? Even despots and dictators have their charitable causes, it certainly does not mean they should be welcome in civilized society. Clearly Pfleger relishes his role as the head wigga in charge. He gets the thrill of working out his own superiority complex under cover, while feeding the poor and hungry, not to mention the revenge fantasies of Trinity Church's congregation. What a gig Pfleger has got, even Eminem must surely envy.

What is unforgettable is the glee in the faces of the majority of Trinity's congregation. The same sort of pathetic revenge one imagined the crowd had at the guillotine show during the French revolution. There is something chillingly unenlightened about the gleeful Trinity congregation in their vengeful trophies netted each Sunday. I suspect average Americans can't get over the glee and laughter. Its the troubling thing that remains. The glee.

by superetendar 2008-05-31 03:15AM | 0 recs

I had a friend who's father had liberated death camps at the end of WWII.  He told her that they were instructed to, upon freeing Jewish prisoners and disarming the guards, turn their backs on what would happen next and allow the fury to run it's ugly course.  In a similar sense, I can see how the black community is more than entitled to it's glee at the mockery of white people.  For so long they have had so little else.

That said, Obama is purported to be a unifying leader.  I would hope that means he challenges his "crazy uncles" (and aunts) to rise above the understandable inclination to blame all whites for the actions of a minority and to absolve innocent white persons for the sins of their fathers.

Do I benefit from the color of my skin?  Of course.  But my ancestors were not slave owners and white tycoons -- my ancestors were potato picking peasants disadvantaged for their station and poverty.  My ancestors in this coutry struggled against ethnic profiling, illiteracy and crushing poverty.  

My point is this -- the bigger enemy is classism, not race or gender bias  -- the have's against the have not's regardless of skin color.  It's the battle that has gone on across continents and skin colors through the millenia and racism is the tool employed to keep the have not's divided.  

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-05-31 03:34AM | 0 recs

off to work on a GD Saturday with my entitled white ass swelling up in a car seat for 12 straight hours to make house calls to primarily black folks with the intent of empowering them to effect change in their lives.  And no, my good works don't entitle me to otherwise be an asshole.

So don't take a lack of response on my part to your next comment as any sort of concession.  It' just thst if I'm late?  My black male boss will rip me a new one, justafiably.

Enjoy your day.

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-05-31 04:53AM | 0 recs

LOL. A pre-emptive strike. Okay you're off the hook.

I definitely  understand your friend's story about the emotional blood letting of Holocaust survivors upon immediately being release from their captors. I can understand the same visceral emotion of revenge immediately after Lincoln declared emancipation and certainly during and shortly after the civil rights era. But still? The unrestrained and perpetual glee visited upon sacrificial white victims (mostly Clintons) at Trinity Church is bizarre. I don't really see such gleeful dramatic re-enactments of revenge fantasies in synagogues (although I've only been to mainstream ones), nor on the reservations of Native Americans. Especially with Native Americans there is a mature, wise, enlightened religious philosophy that upholds personal dignity and nurtures. Are African-American's in a different class of perpetual victimhood from which they are to be excused from all norms of behavior?  The "first among victims" status is getting harder to sustain, especially as the 21st century progresses. Condoning the unacceptable behavior at Trinity Church is the most condescending thing anyone can do. Ironically Pfleger was being condescending to his African-American flock, he was saying we do not expect anything better or more elevating of you, you are perpetual victims and the Pflegers of this world get to reinforce their superiority on the sly by helping African-American victims at Trinity  to forever re-live and re-enact their victimhood. The master/slave nightmare narrative cycle is never broken, each only reinforces the other and luxuriates in their assigned roles and the enldess loop of superior/inferior runs. Trinity Church is the groundhog day of victimhood. Even Barack Obama knows it, but then I note he has no slave heritage, he has the luxury of escaping the victim/oppressor narrative while watching it all passively from the pews, like an anthropologist.

Its time to move on from all this. I do agree with you this is about class, which is why these racial victim/oppressor passion plays at Trinty Church are so destructive, they distract from issues like healthcare, education and predatory lending practices, which have more to do with African-American oppression than anything else.

by superetendar 2008-05-31 06:38AM | 0 recs
I wish I could give you a hundred recs.

For this outstanding, wonderful diary. Thank you so much. I did not realize all the good this man did. I fell into the trap of watching him and going oh what the hell. He's inspiring beyond belief.

I hate not being able to rec diaries diaries and comments at times like this, but Jerome can't stand me and took away all my special powers.

by TheFullBerry 2008-05-31 03:16AM | 0 recs
Re: I wish I could give you a hundred recs.

Check out Operation Outreach.  Pat Robertson is equally inspiring.  (snark)

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-05-31 03:35AM | 0 recs
you're comparing this good man to Pat Robertson??

Disgusting, vile, ugly comment made by you. I would expect no less though.  You should hang your head in shame and misery for having the nerve to compare the two. But you won't. It's all about Hillary, and not one other soul on this planet who is suffering or in in need or needs help and some compassion. You have no shame...none at at all.

by TheFullBerry 2008-05-31 03:55AM | 0 recs
Re: you're comparing this good man to Pat Robertso
explain the difference to me.  check out Operation Outreach and explain the GD difference to me.  Hate speech is hate speech, I don't care which side of the aisle it's coming from.  I don't absolve one kind of hate speech and allow another based on the pole it's coming from.
The good works are essentially equal.  good works don't excuse either of them their offensive hate-filled rants that foster division instead of true Christianity.
by grassrootsorganizer 2008-05-31 04:14AM | 0 recs
Re: you're comparing this good man to Pat Robertso

Are you actually claiming that the priest does not have a point? He was not just talking about Hillary and you know damn well know it. He was talking some attitudes amongst white people. Or are you claiming, like Ferraro, that black people are just so damn lucky to be black. That slavery, jim crow, lynchings, and racism are a wonderful thing that they are blessed with. Yeah....african americans. They had a cake walk. And they still do. White people are just so victimized. And persecuted. And we've had it so damn bad. Now we are the ones who had it so damn bad. Whatever. You are blind to their pain and suffering. And only seem to support HIllary's suffering. That of course is SNARK. Give me one example how she has suffered i her life. Oh yeah...she only earned 109 million in the past few years. Not 209. She is so downtrodden and so persecuted that you feel the need to sympathize with her, and not those who truly were beaten and lynched and murdered.

by TheFullBerry 2008-05-31 04:26AM | 0 recs
Re: you're comparing this good man to Pat Robertso

WTF dude.  Where is this even coming from?  What I'm SAYING is good works don't excuse hate speech.  What I'm saying is what the good Father said was hate speech.  IF you're asking me why I consider it hate speech, here's the short answer --

None of the very real horrors you describe are the fault of Hillary Clinton's "white entitlement" or any one individual's sense of who they are or what they deserve.  The damages you describe are the result of INSTITUTIONALIZED racism brokered and bought into by all of us.  I didn't invent racism nor did Hillary Clinton.  It's a tool used to keep us divided and working against one another instead of the institions that rely upon it.

Example: there are as many black guards and administrators as whites profiting and depending upon the unfair incarceration of black men.  Its the system that's f$cked, not the people emeshed in it.

The success of any one white individual is irrelevant. Casting an entire race as oppressors is as hate-filled, destructive and divisive as the worst flaming racist assumptions out there.  

Racism will only END when white folks buy-in to the reality of it and that's not going to happen as long as anyone, black or white, is promoting resentment and core difference.  Our experiences may be different, our value and level of responsibility is not. White, black, all color has to come to mean NO DIFFERENCE.

by grassrootsorganizer 2008-05-31 04:49AM | 0 recs
Re: you're comparing this good man to Pat Robertso

Excellent comment, but don't you know that you are not going to convince some people.  Take solace in knowing that folks like the poster--who speaks as if he/she is part and parcel of the Obama campaign--will be irrelevant and cast aside once the campaign heats up.  There will be no room for technical lefties who make good arguments but don't connect with and would even alienate most voters during the general election campaign.  It is an election of all of the people rather than a scrum between real and fake lefties in the blogosphere.

Take solace also in knowing that nobody is going to distance himself more from Father Pfleger  than Obama himself.  Obama knows Pfleger has now become a liability and he is therefore disposing of him as we write.  So folks like the poster are left defending Father Pfleger's good works to like-minded folks who must always, regardless of politics, look through the racist comments of myriad morons to see their inner good (hee), and in the meantime Obama has dropped the guy under the bus as soon as this happened, and has even done the old Bolshevik thing of erasing all references of the good Father from the Obama website.  You really cannot make this stuff up.

Obama is a politician; he wants to win the election so Pfleger is toast.  The poster wants to win an argument about Pfleger and his integrity.  Wow man.  I'm with Obama the eminent politician on this one; throw the bastard into Lake Michigan.

by bslev22 2008-05-31 05:22AM | 0 recs

The last sentence sounds way too harsh.  Didn't mean that at all.  My reals point is that, in the real world campaign, nobody will be defending Father Pfleger.  

by bslev22 2008-05-31 07:39AM | 0 recs

Stop the "but Mussolini made the trains run on time stuff".  Really, just stop it, and particularly when you're writing a unity article.  It doesn't fit, dig?  

by bslev22 2008-05-31 03:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag?
Sorry, I have no use for the type of priest or preacher that uses the pulpit to promote hate speech.
Whether it's Pat Robertson or Pfleger, neither man will ever have my support and I don't make excuses for them.
That being said, I don't blame Obama for it.
He's certainly not the only person to have supporters saying hateful things, is he? I guess it all depends on who the supporters support.
by skohayes 2008-05-31 04:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Man, you'd have to be a &&^( to believe that this makes any %$&^& sense, you #@^%$ @%#@(#!!!

(Hey, don't complain about my language -- it was meant only as a parable!)

by frankly0 2008-05-31 04:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag?

There is no shortage of hateful, racist, sexist and stupid people on the planet!  I don't hold Senator Obama responsible for the idiocy of a Pastor or Congregation that praises the ugly side of humanity!

by orionwest 2008-05-31 04:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag?

But, do you hold Obama responsible for associating so closely and for such a long time with the Pastor and congregation?

by NJ Liberal 2008-05-31 05:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag?

Not at all because we all have toxic relationships!  I'm not an Obama supporter.  

by orionwest 2008-05-31 03:39PM | 0 recs
The diarist ignores important facts

The diarist provides a short list of very minor achievements and initiatives that are more than overwhelmed by Pfleger's audacity in pointing out whites benefited from slavery and that many refuse to acknowledge that.

by Trond Jacobsen 2008-05-31 05:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag? Another apology? STOP MAK

Am going to leave the computer today.
Helping my-son-in-law build a deck.
My wife will be watching(and holding a lot no doubt)
our 4 month old grandson Calvin as his mother/our daughter Keile is off to her RN shift at Denver's Children's Hospital. I leave you with something we can ALL agree is special and true.. EM

by nogo postal 2008-05-31 05:48AM | 0 recs
Reading this diary did nothing to make me consider

voting for Obama in the general.

Just sayin'.

by PJ Jefferson 2008-05-31 06:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger a scumbag

What I blame Obama for it his less than adequate acknowledgement of the assaults on Clinton made in his name.  He could at least say her name when denouncing disunity, because it was all about Clinton.  It was not a parable.  It was an attack on her.  He burries his head in the sand whenever this happens by someone who has strong support for him.  It is the perfect example of non leadership, something that people are waiting to see from him and something a president should have.  It doen't show up many times when it should.  Your effort to excuse it as a parable is laughable.

by Scotch 2008-05-31 08:12AM | 0 recs

you want unity and yet you have the temerity of posting shit like this. Maybe the kool-aid fried your brains but very early on when Bob Kerrey said something which he thought was complimentary to Obama but somehow offended the kool-aid kidz, what did they do? they demanded and apology from Hillary Clinton. When Bob Johnson (who is black) said something unsavory about Obama what did you guys do? you wanted an apology from Hillary Clinton. When Geraldine Ferraro said something which was being echoed by both John Kerry and Claire McCaskill what did you do? you wanted an apology from Hillary Clinton. When Drudgereport posted a fake picture attributing to Clinton campaign, what did you do? You wanted an apology from Hillary Clinton. When DailyKos made a fake story about a Clinton ad what did you do? You wanted an apology from Hillary Clinton. When the Obama campiagn took Bill Clinton's words twisted them and played the race-card on him, what did you do? You wanted an apology from Hillary Clinton. When Sen. Clinton gave a historically accurate account of LBJ and MLK what did you guys do? you wanted an apology.

Yes Barack Obama and his fans has seemingly patented the victimhood strategy. So you can say any sexist or racist crap without any accountability. This is just an extension of the same "I am always the victim and I cannot be held accountable" bullshit. Obama's friend and pastor says something demeaning and wrong and he cannot apologize. And you guys and your hero now want unity? It's like degrading unity to a bumper sticker or a t-shirt. Just another word that Obama likes to throw around. Goodluck with that.

by tarheel74 2008-05-31 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Hypocrites

yes, the kool-aid must have fried my brains.  because i don't remember obama's campaign chair asking for an apology from bob johnson, drudge, or Daily Kos.  i did remember wanting an apology because Ferraro and Clinton WERE INNER CIRCLE CAMPAIGN MEMBERS SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE CAMPAIGN, not peripheral people speaking to unrelated crowds.

nobody's claiming victimhood here, and that's a bold statement from someone who supports a candidate who's been whining about sexism for the past three weeks.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-31 10:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Hypocrites

super comment, what i've noticed is they judge bloggers by the company they keep, only Barack isn't judged that way. Quite a few good old friends he spent much time with are racists and or sexists, and although I don't judge by the company anyone keeps, his silliest supporters to, yet give him an affronted pass. Its weird. Irony may not be dead  but logic seems to have died in a few burnt out minds.  

by anna shane 2008-05-31 01:08PM | 0 recs
Two main disagreements

1) I disagree that Hillary was used as a parable. That attack was intensely personal, spiteful and a disgrace, and the enthusiastic response from the congregation was equally disgraceful. There is a reason that Obama's favorability rating among white women has dropped from 54% to 43% since February, and he had better figure out how to stop that bleeding if he hopes to "unify" the party-- much less the country.

2) I disagree that Obama gained the nomination because he is a better candidate. If you had said that he ran a better campaign, I would agree with you. Semantics?

by Swedie 2008-05-31 08:40AM | 0 recs
Pfleger is a scumbag.

Anyone who would accuse Hillary Clinton of being a white supremacist -- and a die-hard white supremacist at that -- is a scumbag.

Hillary wasn't just picked out of thin air as the "typical white person" in a parable about entitlement. Not in Obama's home church ... not with the  preface about not doing politics, and the epilog about getting Obama's church into trouble again. This was a vile, unfounded political smear.

Pfleger has not apologized ... except for embarrassing Obama. He has not recanted. He is a dyed-in-the-wool scumbag.

Good works do not give anyone license to do evil. That's not a tenet of any Chirstian faith. To varying degrees in different traditions, such sanctimony is a sin, not a virtue. It's the refuge of scumbags.

And he is Obama's scumbag. Obama's "divorce" from Rev. Wright leaves Pfleger as Obama's closest known spiritual advisor.

It's up to Barack Obama to do the right thing. Reject and denounce Pfleger's specific allegations. Divorce Pfleger as he did Wright (with Pfleger acting as relationship counselor). Leave TUCC, whose current pastor Rev. Moss closed with "we thank God for the message, and we thank God for the messenger", and find a new spiritual home.

Or wear everything that rubs off from rubbing elbows with scumbags.

by RonK Seattle 2008-05-31 09:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Pfleger is a scumbag.

White supremacist?  Link pls?

Not everyone that disses Clinton is a scumbag.  It's not all about her.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-31 11:09AM | 0 recs
Go to the tape. btw, BO resigns from TUCC

... per unconfirmed reports this hour.

by RonK Seattle 2008-05-31 02:11PM | 0 recs
With Barack Obama, you're not only waiting for

the other shoe to're following a centipede.

While I agree with your observation that the political blogospshere is a bit of a bubble, you're mistaken if you think that voters aren't already responding negatively to Rev.Wright, or this latest round of bile from "Father" Phleger.Your crack that Rev.Wright "worked SO well in derailing" Obama during the primaries is ignoring reality. At this point--in the worst GOP year imaginable (maybe in history?)--your man is running no better than even with John McCain in trial heats. Often he runs BEHIND!!! Are you even aware that at this point in the 2004 and 1988 cycles, Kerry and Dukakis led their respective Bushes by +15 points? Newsflash: your guy's friends (and his grim wife, for that matter) are not helping him.

Not to pile the bad news on you, but the Rev.Wright issue couldn't have derailed Barack in the primaries, because it was NEVER USED! One GOP ad was pulled in NC, but now that Obama has said on Fox News Sunday that his associations are a "legitimate campaign issue", the GOP slime machine and 527's are going to beat him like a rented mule this Fall. A black minister shrieking "God Damn America" is like a gift to the GOP slime-masters. And who knows what other creatures like Phleger will crawl out of the closet? You folks think that President and Senator Clinton were mean to you??? You have no idea what's in store.

Back in 2004, Kerry supporters assured me that the "Swift Boat" stuff had already been thrown at him in his Senate races, to no avail. The ensuing GOP ads--which were met with the Bob Shrum strategy of "staying above the fray" and going windsurfing--were devastating. Kerry's 15-point lead vanished fairly quickly.

If the Rev.Pfleger helps to open the public's eyes about the enigmatic Obama, he will have done an awful lot for the people of this country.

by BJJ Fighter 2008-05-31 09:46AM | 0 recs
Re: With Barack Obama, you're not only waiting for

It's not the Hillary crying & entitlement comment that will send voters to the polls to vote for McCain.  It's the comment that they need to send their 401K's (which is all anybody has these days in lieu of a pension) to be used for slavery reparations.  

by LIsoundview 2008-05-31 11:01AM | 0 recs
Obama doesn't need to apologize for, or denounce,

remarks made by Pfleger.

On the other hand, no one can demand that voters refuse to associate Obama with certain allies.  Voters have the right to do whatever they want.  You can scream about how unfair or illogical that is, but your rage won't change anyone's mind.

Pleger a scumbag?  Hardly.  But I don't think anyone would suggest he is.  Rather, I think most people who reject him would do so on the basis that he propagates views they believe are appallingly wrongheaded.  

I am familiar with Pleger's career and understand his passion and determination for social service activism.  But, let me ask you something, can't someone share those noble attributes without propagating the absurd notion that white people all have trust funds and walk into lush corporate jobs?  As you go throughout urban and rural US , I think you can point to numerous individuals who share Pleger's admirable traits without sharing his harmful ones.  

by lombard 2008-05-31 10:42AM | 0 recs

yeah I know dissenting view is not allowed against "big brother" Obama, but if you write crap like this diary when you guys have a history of playing the victim over and over again with no accountability you can kiss unity goodbye.

by tarheel74 2008-05-31 10:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Hypocrites

this reads like something i'd find on free republic.

"when you guys have a history of playing the victim over and over again"

you this?

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-31 11:07AM | 0 recs


Advertise Blogads