Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Even she is suspending her campaign:
in latest CBS Poll, see
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/may08b -GENERALELECTION.pdf
Hillary outpolling Obama against McCain:

IF THE CANDIDATES WERE CLINTON VS. MCCAIN WHO WOULD YOU VOTE FOR?
(Among registered voters)
Clinton 50% McCain 41 Undecided 6

Obama does less than that:
IF THE ELECTION WERE TODAY, WOULD YOU VOTE FOR...?
(Among registered voters)
Obama 48% McCain 42 Undecided 6 Won't vote 3.

DEMOCRATS: CHOICE OF OBAMA VS. MCCAIN
(Among registered voters)
Among Clinton supporters: only 63% planning to vote for Obama,
22% will vote for McCain, 7% undecided, and 8% will not vote.

Poll said that 37% of Clinton supporters are not ready to vote for Obama.

Tags: clinton (all tags)

Comments

121 Comments

Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Barack Obama is our nominee.

Enough with these diaries.

by neonplaque 2008-06-05 10:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

How is engels still around?

Oh well.

Unintentional comedy at its finest.

by spacemanspiff 2008-06-05 10:49AM | 0 recs
The latest

in greatness from our buddy engels:


my yesterday's Diary about
"Clinton supporters switching to McCain"
was banned and I was warned and somebody with administrative privileges called me a "linkwhore" right inside warning message.
This site will be overrun soon (or is it already?) by dkos types. I am not blogging on dkos for ages.
I have a similar history: Gore, Dean, now Hillary.
I guess I can follow you, but my reasoning is different.
Good luck to you with your magical power.
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/6/4/23 5057/7984/79#79

by Student Guy 2008-06-05 11:03AM | 0 recs
Good one

You're really working hard trying to win over Hillary supporters for Nov. aren't you? :D

FYI...I think the way you're going about it, is not helpful.

by soyousay 2008-06-05 11:07AM | 0 recs
engels

did McCain advocacy and calls Obama supporters Cult, These actions don't garner respect from me.

I mean even in over half of his comments he calls Obama supporters as a whole a Cult.

by Student Guy 2008-06-05 11:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Good one

And this diary helps the dialogue.  Jesus, you guys need to go be bitter eleswhere.

by LtWorf 2008-06-05 11:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Good one

And this diary helps the dialogue
It could if you we're willing to take it in that direction. Example: How to improve poll numbers.

Jesus, you guys need to go be bitter eleswhere.
Jesus doesn't have anything to do with this...That being said, this is a political forum and IMO, polls should be a good topic for discussion.

by soyousay 2008-06-05 11:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Good one

From King Bitterman, no surprise.

by LtWorf 2008-06-05 12:44PM | 0 recs
Re: The latest

Good to see Jerome and Todd cracking down.  Things have gotten much much more reasonable since Tuesday.

by yitbos96bb 2008-06-05 01:34PM | 0 recs
CBS poll is proving my banned diary

by engels 2008-06-05 01:53PM | 0 recs
Re: CBS poll is proving my banned diary

What do you expect when you write troll diaries promoting voting for McCain't?

by Lefty Coaster 2008-06-05 04:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

You find polls funny? I think all politicians examine polls and I don't think Obama will take them as lightly as you do.

by soyousay 2008-06-05 11:04AM | 0 recs
engels

is why we find them funny, we can't take him seriously anymore after calling us 'Cult" and cancer for so long.

We just laugh at him.

by Student Guy 2008-06-05 11:06AM | 0 recs
Re: engels

If I judged every diary on my opinion of the diarist, I wouldn't have much to read.

What I'm trying to say is that engels diary is a valid source of information. Whether you like the diarist or not is irrelevant.

by soyousay 2008-06-05 11:14AM | 0 recs
Re: engels

I wonder how Edwards or Biden are polling against McCain? How about Gore or Kerry? How would engel match up with McCain? We need more such polls to remain informed about this important information.

by ImpeachBushCheney 2008-06-05 12:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

agreed  

comedy because engels is a clown  

by wellinformed 2008-06-05 11:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

an ASS CLOWN

by wellinformed 2008-06-05 11:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

These are the facts; I'm sure Obama has seen them.

by soyousay 2008-06-05 11:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Maybe in Second Life, the Hillary vs. McPain poll results matter, but not here.

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem 2008-06-05 11:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Maybe you should ask: why does Clinton do better than Obama and how can Obama improve the numbers?

by soyousay 2008-06-05 11:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

"Maybe you should ask: why does Clinton do better than Obama and how can Obama improve the numbers?"

I really don't care.

The Clinton vs. McPain poll results are a meaningless benchmark now.  She. Is. No. Longer. In. The. Race.  

Hypothetical matchups with candidates who are no longer running, are meaningless. Period.  It's not useful data.

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem 2008-06-05 11:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

I really don't care.
That's your right.

The Clinton vs. McPain poll results are a meaningless benchmark now.  She. Is. No. Longer. In. The. Race.
Well I'm sure Obama's campaign has examined all the poll numbers because he wants to win in Nov. It's a good thing you don't work for Obama.

Hypothetical matchups with candidates who are no longer running, are meaningless. Period.  It's not useful data.
Let's just hope Obama doesn't do worse when the polls are no longer including Clinton data.

by soyousay 2008-06-05 11:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Listen, I know that this may be a little tricky to understand:

These two hypothetical polls have the same relevance in the real world:

1) Spiderman vs. McCain
2) Clinton vs. McCain

Why?  Because both have a ZERO chance of happenning.  

I'm not trying to be flippant here.  Asking someone's preference for an impossible and imaginary event has no relevance in the real world.

Trying to take meaning from data derived from the polling of these types of imaginary events, is also worthless.

I'm sorry, but your basic methodology is flawed.

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem 2008-06-05 12:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Listen, I know that this may be a little tricky to understand:
Not for me it isn't.

These two hypothetical polls have the same relevance in the real world:
Apparently they're worth something or the media wouldn't have them so conveniently available.

1) Spiderman vs. McCain
Was spiderman running?
2) Clinton vs. McCain
Clinton does very well against McCain, Obama not as well...Why?

Because both have a ZERO chance of happenning.
FYI; Spiderman isn't real, therefore irrelevant. Clinton was and polls say that she does better than Obama. What you should be asking yourself is why did Clinton do better in this poll than Obama?  

I'm not trying to be flippant here.
IMO, you are.  
Asking someone's preference for an impossible and imaginary event has no relevance in the real world.
Maybe you ought to learn something from it rather than ignoring it because you don't like the outcome. I'm sure Obama is trying to figure out how to improve poll numbers.

Trying to take meaning from data derived from the polling of these types of imaginary events, is also worthless.
I'm sure those who do the polls know about this business more than you do.

I'm sorry, but your basic methodology is flawed.
It's not mine, it's the pros.

by soyousay 2008-06-05 12:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Reposting my explanation from below, for your convenience:

I was all over the place in my candidate preferences when this primary race started, even with Hillary for a while.

I like her.  I admire her.  This is not a question of preference, but of statistics, methodology, and human psychology.

If you ask someone to choose between two imaginary options, the results are very different, than when you ask people to choose between two real, possible options. This difference exists, regardless of the content of the question.

Pollsters understand this phenomenon.  This is the basic problem with reading too much into this type of data.

In order to really tease out his weaknesses among the electorate, you have to remove the personality question, (Hillary), from the poll, and look specifically for demographic behavior...completely divorced from name recognition.

Obama's campaign already does this type of internal polling.  They already have much more accurate and precise data on his weak areas.  This poll is completely useless for this purpose.

I don't think I was very clear in my first post, but it requires a detailed explanation.

Cheers  ;-)

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem 2008-06-05 12:45PM | 0 recs
FYI; It's called resistance

I think the poll is actually a warning sign for Obama. A large portion of Democrats still prefer Clinton regardless of Obama's win. The media was claiming that Obama was the winner long before the primary was over....Clinton was still winning and still doing well in the polls. It's called resistance.

Remember; the general election doesn't have caucasus.

by soyousay 2008-06-05 01:18PM | 0 recs
Re: FYI; It's called resistance

"I think the poll is actually a warning sign for Obama."

Okay, I spent some time trying to give you a detailed and rational explanation for my point:  This poll is worthless for what you're trying to read into it.  It's just not the correct vehicle.  

Can you design a poll to find his demographic weaknesses?  Yes

Is this poll useful for that purpose?  No

This is my point.  

I'm not ignoring his weaknesses.  I'm not sticking my head in the sand.  

I'm trying to tell you this: What you are trying to do with this poll, is NOT valid.  This really has nothing to do with Hillary.

Would you, at least, acknowledge this point?  Because, I'm not seeing signs that you're getting it.

Cheers.

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem 2008-06-05 01:26PM | 0 recs
Well....There ya go! :D

I'm not ignoring his weaknesses.  I'm not sticking my head in the sand.

by soyousay 2008-06-05 03:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Well....There ya go! :D

This was an incredibly unproductive exchange.

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem 2008-06-05 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Well....There ya go! :D

by soyousay 2008-06-05 04:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Well....There ya go! :D

I bow to your superior density.

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem 2008-06-05 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

It's important in the sense that "Pro-Hillary defectors" are a key target for Obama in the coming months.  

Most of these people will come around as long as Obama makes some nods to them and the Obama surrogates/supporters/pundits stop constantly criticizing Hillary every time she opens her mouth because I think it's the treatment that Hillary has gotten (largely from the media, blogosphere and anti-Hillary punditocracy) that has embittered so many of her supporters.

I know for me personally, I'm 100% for Obama and I've always like him and admired and respected him and thought he has an even higher upside (and lower floor) than Hillary.  But the way Hillary has gotten trashed just like it was coming from Rush Limbaugh and Pat Robertson has made it hard for me to be excited about Obama yet.  I know I'll get there.

And I know I wouldn't show up in this poll because there is no chance in hell I won't work for and contribute to and support our (good) nominee.  But this poll isn't meaningless because it shows us a demographic we need to win over.

by dcg2 2008-06-05 12:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

I was all over the place in my candidate preferences when this primary race started, even with Hillary for a while.

I like her.  I admire her.  This is not a question of preference, but of statistics, methodology, and human psychology.

If you ask someone to choose between two imaginary options, the results are very different, than when you ask people to choose between two real, possible options. This difference exists, regardless of the content of the question.

Pollsters understand this phenomenon.  This is the basic problem with reading too much into this type of data.

In order to really tease out his weaknesses among the electorate, you have to remove the personality question, (Hillary), from the poll, and look specifically for demographic behavior...completely divorced from name recognition.

Obama's campaign already does this type of internal polling.  They already have much more accurate and precise data on his weak areas.  This poll is completely useless for this purpose.

I don't think I was very clear in my first post, but it requires a detailed explanation.

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem 2008-06-05 12:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Hate to break it to you... doing better by 1 point really doesn't mean anything.  Its statistical noise.

by yitbos96bb 2008-06-05 01:35PM | 0 recs
PLEASE DONT FEED THE TROLL
Please read this diary;
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/6/5/15195 1/2590#2
and recommend it if you are able.
by awobbly 2008-06-05 11:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Denial and ignorance is bliss!

Really, you Obamatans need to face reality.  Obama can now be added to the pantheon of liberal candidates like McGovern, Dukakis, and Kerry and as such will ensure a McCain victory in November.

"I'd love to vote for an African American for president--but just not this one" (sound familiar?)

by trixta 2008-06-05 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

I think this diary says a lot. Plus he's NOT quite the nominee yet, is he.  It says that Obama is in a lot of trouble come November.  The CBS poll has always been favorable to Democrats. If you consider the hoopla around Obama and the extraordiary press that he gets, to have such a small lead over McCain doesn't bode well. Remember Republicans usually close stronger than we do. I remember in '96 Clinton had a 20 plus lead over Dole at this stage and only won by 8.

by handsomegent 2008-06-05 11:47AM | 0 recs
False

It doesn't say he's in trouble come Novmber.  It says he's up by 6 (just that Hillary runs 3 points higher, but that's not the same as meaning Obama is in trouble).  

And Obama hasn't even gotten his victory bounce yet.

by dcg2 2008-06-05 12:20PM | 0 recs
Re: False

According to Gallup Tracking O got virtually NO bounce in interviews conducted after Tuesday's victory.  Also Clinton's on the ticket gives him a 5 point lead.

by handsomegent 2008-06-05 01:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll


Hmmm...just doesn't look like the realignment election Obama supporters were talking about even weeks ago.  And just how good does his slipping toward center feel?

The real problem in the numbers is not the margin, it's the perceptible shrinking of mandate to his election.  If he wins.

by killjoy 2008-06-05 11:51AM | 0 recs
Oh yeah, the true Democratic Liberals

that you claim don't care about social issues, vote on "security", and are uneducated.

What did you call those educated liberals?  "Classic leftists" that have more to do with Howard Dean.

Hmmm, methinks you pontificate too much.

by Regenman 2008-06-05 01:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh yeah, the true Democratic Liberals

Dude, you seem confused.  And sound pretty sore or bitter.
by killjoy 2008-06-05 01:54PM | 0 recs
i wonder how she does against mitt romney...

or, heh, ronald reagan?  did they happen to ask?

curious minds and all...

by bored now 2008-06-05 10:49AM | 0 recs
Superman 76% Lex Luthor 20%

4% undecided.

by Dracomicron 2008-06-05 10:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Superman 76% Lex Luthor 20%

Lex Luthor suffers from some REALLY high negatives.

by fugazi 2008-06-05 10:52AM | 0 recs
True enough

His "honest and trustworthy" is in the midden heap.

Don't discount his "will destroy world if not elected" numbers, though.

by Dracomicron 2008-06-05 10:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Superman 76% Lex Luthor 20%

If not for his support from the kryptonite industry, he wouldn't have a chance!

by Firewall 2008-06-05 10:55AM | 0 recs
Don't let Big Kryptonite steal this one

The Big Kryptonite lobby has held us hostage for far too long.

No, really, they've literally held me at gunpoint for like two days now.  HELP SUPERMAN!

by Dracomicron 2008-06-05 11:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Superman 76% Lex Luthor 20%

It's the rampant anti-baldism of the media.

by looty 2008-06-05 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Superman 76% Lex Luthor 20%

For those who don't know, Lex Luthor WAS PRESIDENT in the DC Comics.  He made Bush look moral and uncorrupt in comparison.  

by yitbos96bb 2008-06-05 01:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Superman 76% Lex Luthor 20%

For that matter, there was a Superman issue where SUPERMAN was President as well... but it isn't Canonical.

by yitbos96bb 2008-06-05 01:37PM | 0 recs
by yitbos96bb 2008-06-05 01:57PM | 0 recs
Let Go

I feel your pain, but... come on.

by Hatch 2008-06-05 10:51AM | 0 recs
This diary

is what you get when you cut funds for education.

by awobbly 2008-06-05 10:51AM | 0 recs
Hilarious

the comedy keeps coming today.  See if you can find a poll that gives us the stats of Joe Biden vs. McCain because they are about as relevant to reality as the ones you provide.

by gchaucer2 2008-06-05 10:52AM | 0 recs
Obama beating McCain by 6

Clinton (Bill or Hillary), Edwards or Gore might or might not be able to do better.  

Doesn't matter.  We're Democrats and we have our candidate.  His last name is Obama.

As to the Hillary supporters who are still on the fence?  It was a long campaign and it just ended.  I'm sure Senator Clinton is going to be able to pull a lot over to Obama with her when she throws her support to him this weekend.

by mijita 2008-06-05 10:53AM | 0 recs
Hillary didn't even let Obama know she was

suspending her campaign and endorsing him on Sat. He found out from the media.

Yes, she will endorse him but she is not happy with the way she was treated so I like many of her supporters will not be voting for Obama regardless of her endorsement.

She can put up with the abuse but we don't have to.

by mmorang 2008-06-05 12:50PM | 0 recs
Your vote is your own, of course.

I've always known I was going to vote for the nominee.  I hoped it would be Edwards, I voted for Obama, I would have voted for Clinton.

For me, the issues are too fraught this election (the war, the Surpreme Court, Gitmo, torture, and on and on and on) to think of voting third party.  I truly believe this election is a battle for the soul of our country.

by mijita 2008-06-05 01:11PM | 0 recs
engels

I see your McCain advocacy diary got pulled down, you certainly are a professional troll to get back on the horse after that.

by Student Guy 2008-06-05 10:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Excellent.  It looks like Obama doesn't have an electability problem.  Thanks for the poll.

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem 2008-06-05 11:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Actually, he has a huge problem. He is up by about 6 points right now. Taking the Bradley Affect into consideration he is about even or slightly behind McCain.

His hardcore support is concentrated in a few states.

He has performed very poorly in the swing states losing nearly all of them.

He lost big in SD even though he was already the presumtive nominee and was up big not that long ago.

Many of his high-ranking supporters hate the Clinton's so we'll see what happens as far as the V.P.

I'm already looking forward to 2012

by mmorang 2008-06-05 01:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Shakes head sadly...

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem 2008-06-05 01:10PM | 0 recs
Cause South Dakota is going blue this fall?

Nice strawman example there.

by Regenman 2008-06-05 01:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Cause South Dakota is going blue this fall?

A strawman argument is when someone responds or argues against an argument that their opponent didn't make because it is easier than arguing against the argument that was made.

I did not such thing. I responded to the argument my "opponent" made pretty directly.

by mmorang 2008-06-05 01:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Actually, I never like to do this but it's "Bradley Effect" not "Bradley Affect".

http://www.yvcc.edu/owl/effectaffect.htm l

Oh, and, nice Kreskin play on being able to determine the Bradley Effect through a snap-shot poll?

I think Mark Penn has an internship (non-paid, he's not going to have too many paying clients in the future)for you to do some micro-trend polling?

by WashStateBlue 2008-06-05 02:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

So, it's the Bradley Effect that will cause the Obama supporters to think their guy is winning when he is actually behind. Ok, got it.

by mmorang 2008-06-06 11:08AM | 0 recs
well, Obama is not the nominee until August

and I hope the supers remember that. This is because the supers can change their minds, and when things come out about Obama, or they see how poorly he does in polls against McCain in this type of political environment, they can come home to Clinton.

by DiamondJay 2008-06-05 11:01AM | 0 recs
time in a bottle?

And Obama won't be the President until January even though he will be elected in November.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-06-05 11:05AM | 0 recs
Re: well, Obama is not the nominee until August

Poorly against McCain?

He;s beating him by 6 points...if that's poor, may I never be rich! :)

Give it up already...it's over.

by FlashStash 2008-06-05 11:11AM | 0 recs
Re: well, Obama is not the nominee until August

bradley effect, this is not a Democratic primary with 30 percent of the electorate black, this is the general electorate. Blacks are only 12 percent of it overall. Obama's lead is actually really small if you factor the bradley effect

by DiamondJay 2008-06-05 11:12AM | 0 recs
Oh God!

Here we go again.

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem 2008-06-05 11:22AM | 0 recs
Re: well, Obama is not the nominee until August

So......all the states he won had 30% or higher African American turnout?

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-06-05 11:47AM | 0 recs
Re: well, Obama is not the nominee until August

I was talking about THIS COUNTRY, not liberal democrat primaries, either where in states like Idaho, where the few Dems who exist there are voting for the new guy, or in southern states where we won't win where most of the Democrats are blacks but most whites vote Republican. Idaho will never go dem, and neither will Alabama.

by DiamondJay 2008-06-05 12:06PM | 0 recs
Re: well, Obama is not the nominee until August
you think it is possible something will come out?
you meant Obama is not vetted yet?
by engels 2008-06-05 12:08PM | 0 recs
I submit these quotes


I also noticed that DKos people often (like ancient normans or mongols or like cancer cells) trying to invade other blogs and made them insane too.


Chicago's Number One media analyst, Obama expert and Internet columnist Andy Martin will hold a 4:00 P.M. New York City news conference today, April 15th, to condemn Senator Barack Obama's latest prevarications and "lapse of memory" as reflected in the Tony Rezko trial.


my yesterday's Diary about
"Clinton supporters switching to McCain"
was banned and I was warned and somebody with administrative privileges called me a "linkwhore" right inside warning message.
This site will be overrun soon (or is it already?) by dkos types. I am not blogging on dkos for ages.
I have a similar history: Gore, Dean, now Hillary.
I guess I can follow you, but my reasoning is different.
Good luck to you with your magical power.

One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong...?

by Student Guy 2008-06-05 11:01AM | 0 recs
We need more Obama Experts

Seriously, it's an under-analyzed field of study.

by Dracomicron 2008-06-05 11:09AM | 0 recs
I think engels

is applying to be one, but the Obama expert entry is what doesn't belong as engels didn't write it.

by Student Guy 2008-06-05 11:10AM | 0 recs
Re: I submit these quotes

why you so indecisive? pick one!

by engels 2008-06-05 12:13PM | 0 recs
Jesus beating McCain by 80%

Jesus is having trouble with the atheist and agnostic voters. They say his holier than thou attitude comes off as being too elitists.

It could become a problem in November.

by hnic357 2008-06-05 11:01AM | 0 recs
How does it feel?

Hey Engels,

Last night you made it clear, if Hillary drops out, or doesn't run as in independent, you were voting for McCain?

You sent a letter to her stating that?

So, now that we are all clear, I have to ask you...

How does it feel to be a Republican?

And, a conservative Republican at that, since a lot of moderate Republicans will vote for Obama?

Did you wake up this morning disliking poor people?

Did you wake up this morning thinking bout all those "Cadillac driving Welfare Mothers?"

Did you wake up this morning hating those Illegal Mexicans?

Did you wake up this morning whining about how much taxes the rich people pay?

Did you wake up this morning yearning for MORE deregulation?

Did you wake up this morning thinking

"WOW, I can't wait till MY CANDIDATE John McCain send Orrin Hatches name up to replace John Paul Steven's on the USSC!"

Did you wake up this morning supporting Bush's endless war in Iraq and yearning for a new one in Iran?

You see Engels, since I have been a democrat since my mom dragged me around as she was door-belling for JFK, I just can't seem to think like a Republican?

You conservative Republicans just are such a mystery to me.....

by WashStateBlue 2008-06-05 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: How does it feel?

actually i like your questions:

1. "How does it feel to be a Republican?" I am not a republican, i am a socialist (see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engels )

  1. Define poor. I feel I am poor. I don't hate myself.
  2. Mexicans are as good as other people, why i have to hate them?
  3. I am not familiar with whining, i heard dkos people whining a lot. If whining means blogging on dkos, than I don't whining.
  4. Define MORE "deregulation"?
  5. McCain is not my candidate, Hillary is.  McCain is an unfortunate option (you forcing me to pick one).
  6. I do not support war in Iraq, you know that.
  7. Conservative, liberal and progressive are all very stupid empty labels. You either socialist or not. I guess you are not a socialist, at least you afraid to say it publicly.

by engels 2008-06-05 12:28PM | 0 recs
Re: How does it feel?

And Clinton, the quintessential DLC candidate, is acceptable to a socialist?

But, McCain is MORE acceptable then Obama?

There is some serious cognative dissonance at work here.....

by WashStateBlue 2008-06-05 12:49PM | 0 recs
Re: How does it feel?

Clinton = Universal Health Care
McCain = no Cult

I see perfect logic here

by engels 2008-06-05 01:47PM | 0 recs
Too Bad

Too bad it simply dosen't matter anymore.  Clinton endorses Saturday.  Game Over, Over.

by NewOaklandDem 2008-06-05 11:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Whooooo! We're up by 6%!

by terra 2008-06-05 11:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Jerome,  Where is that housecleaning that was being talked about?

by rf7777 2008-06-05 11:07AM | 0 recs
This is a Vichy blog.

MyDD clearly accomodates McCain supporters by refusing to ban even the most obvious trolls.  Engels isn't even the worst.

I cannot help but conclude at this point that this is deliberate.  I wonder what Jerome really wants to happen in November.

by McNasty 2008-06-05 11:42AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a Vichy blog.

Honestly I used to think this place was out of hand, but recently I realized that the "trolls" actually do us all a favor.  They come to our forum and argue their points.  Thus we get to see what we are up against, and also it helps us solidify our positions on things through open dialogue.

Also, anyone reading these posts can form their own opinion.  Given the arguments and methods used, and the often lack of facts, anyone with any common sense can see what is the truth.

So in the end, the trolls are only posting info that other trolls will rec up and agree with.  The rest of us see it for what it is.

by herenow 2008-06-05 11:59AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a Vichy blog.

Out of hand: means not in Obama's kingdom?

by engels 2008-06-05 12:30PM | 0 recs
Re: This is a Vichy blog.

Hate to ask the obvious question here... but..

What???

by herenow 2008-06-05 01:01PM | 0 recs
Engels "intelligent design" quote

Ah come on Engels, we all know that you believe that our ancestors frolicked with the dinosaurs.  Why don't you go ahead and admit that you're a closet evangelical and keep us amused a few more months.

by Regenman 2008-06-05 01:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Engels "intelligent design" quote

you confused me with somebody. i know that god does not exist, how i can be evangelical?

by engels 2008-06-05 01:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

How does she do against Romney?

by Twin Planets 2008-06-05 11:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

I bet she'd really kick Huckabee's ass!

by Same As It Ever Was 2008-06-05 11:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

by jsfox 2008-06-05 11:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Engels,

While I agree that Hillary Clinton was more likely to beat John McCain, at this point it really is pretty pointless - the party leaders and other voters in our party disagree - and that's that.  

I'm impressed just because she is out of the race and she still does better - but I think it speaks volumes that the Democrats have not 1, but 2 (and possibly many more) candidates that would be favored.  The Republican party is bankrupt of ideas, and we could run Mike Gravel and win the White House these days.  Overall, I'd say that's pretty damn cool!  

Looking forward to electing Democrats in November.

-Mike

by mikes101 2008-06-05 11:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll
poll said among other thing that only 63% of Clinton supporters willing to vote for Obama.
You can ban me, but you cannot ban poll, can you?
And I disagree with you point that Obama is a nominee.
He is a presumptive nominee and this state will be for another 10 weeks or so?
10 weeks in politics like 10 centuries, i am not convinced that "party leaders" engrave their decision into stone.
by engels 2008-06-05 12:36PM | 0 recs
I would hypothetically vote for Capt. America over

Clinton or Obama.  But alas that has about as much of a chance of happening as being able to vote for Clinton in the fall.

Anyway the people who took this poll seem really confused.  They would vote in higher numbers for Clinton over McCain in GE but yet Obama beats Hillary in every other category that would determine a good president:
1.Who would make a more effective President?
25% Obama     22% Clinton
2.Who cares more about the needs of People?
38% Obama     31% Clinton
3.Who is more in line with my values?
62% Obama     58% Clinton
4.Who would make an ineffective President?
35% Obama     39% Clinton

And the oddest thing of all:
Who would you like to see as the nominee of the Democratic Party?
45% Obama      41% Clinton

So a quick analysis of what may have been on voters minds: it may be that now that Obama is officially the nominee, his voters are being diplomatic in saying they would have hypothetically voted for her if she were the nominee.  Otherwise I couldn't say why voters would vote against the person they think is most fit for the Presidency.

by Tenafly Viper 2008-06-05 11:12AM | 0 recs
You got it Right

You have it exactly right.  At this point, more Obama supporters would have been willing to support Cinton, than Clinton supporters would have been willing to support Obama--according to this snap-shot poll.  I'm not sure characterizing Obama supporters as diplomatic is accurate--but I agree it's easier to say you'd vote for the other candidate when it's clear yours will win the nomination.

That said, talk to me in a month, and let's see where the Obama/McCain metrics are with a solid Democratic nominee and the media focused squarely on the walking gaffe machine that is John McCain, standard bearer for party that is intellectually vacant and void of any new ideas, policy, or strategy to help the vast majority of Americans.  Obama's message of hope and easy contrasts in policy and leadership style will net nearly immediate dividends.

I am not at all concerned.

by AK Democrat 2008-06-05 11:23AM | 0 recs
Re: You got it Right

I agree with your assessment.  I only meant a possible attempt at diplomacy by Obama supporters, which of course is much easier when you have nothing to lose.  

I think it's easy to see that the 3% boost for her came directly out of Obama's numbers.  That is unless the entire poll is flawed.

by Tenafly Viper 2008-06-05 11:45AM | 0 recs
Spot-on n/t

by AK Democrat 2008-06-05 11:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Poll said that 37% of Clinton supporters are not ready to vote for Obama.

As long as they will be ready to vote for him five months from now, we're OK.

Democrats preferred Obama to Clinton by a 45-41 margin, so the 22% of Clinton supporters who allegedly plan to vote for McCain comprise about 9% of the electorate.  If two thirds of this group, the undecided (41 * 7 = 3%), and those who do not plan to vote (41 * 8 = 3%) eventually vote for Obama, Obama's lead over McCain balloons from 48-42 to 58-36*.  The truth is probably somewhere between those two figures, but it is definitely encouraging.

Obama:  48 + 6 + 2 + 2 = 58
McCain:  42 - 6 = 36

by KTinOhio 2008-06-05 11:14AM | 0 recs
engels

Let the Party run our weaker candidate (Obama) now when the Repub brand is at its weakest confidence level in years; and run Hillary in 8 years.

by Zeitgeist9000 2008-06-05 11:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

by thatpurplestuff 2008-06-05 11:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

I think the wild card is, sure, a bunch of really angry older white people (perhaps Engels falls in this group) are going to vote McCain (to their undying shame, I might add.)

But, what I think is the wild card is, Obama has built this HUGE ground team, and is going to run a 5 month "sign up to vote" campaign.

My best bud here at work's daughter came home from college, and he said, her roomate is suspending fall school, and has joined one of these teams for Obama to register the hell out of young people.

How is THAT showing up on the polls?  

Cell phone packing, college kids, always on the move?

Now, the conventional wisdom is, they don't vote in any great numbers?

But, what if they do?

It's sad folks like Engel have so identified personally with Senator Clinton they are going to leave the party, but, it may be a fact, a lot of them are going Harriet on us?

So, Obama needs to bring in enough new democrats to make up for those who have decide to jump of the cliff into McCain's Grand Canyon of Stupid!

by WashStateBlue 2008-06-05 11:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

I'm signing up people this Saturday.

Of course, I live in California, so hopefully my efforts will not be necessary, but still.

by bosdcla14 2008-06-05 11:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

I'm signing people up this Saturday in Tennessee.  I'll probably do some events in Atlanta over the coming months as well--I can reasonably conceive of Georgia falling into the blue category.  Tennessee probably won't, but down-ticket support is always nice.

by BishopRook 2008-06-05 11:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Look Obama is the nominee. I'm a Clinton supporter but I'm going to vote for him. That said, I wish the Obamanauts would get out of denial whenever an issue like this gets raised. It's a potential problem for OUR candidate. What is the matter you people. I'm going to be watching the polls over the next few weeks and they should start to move in Obama's favor and I expect them to. If they don't he's going to have consider his position relative to her on the VP matter. Politics is not set in amber. It's a squash game, fast and furious, and you have to be prepared to move according to the cirmcumstances so for godsake all you Obama fans, grow up.  

by ottovbvs 2008-06-05 11:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

How is being up 6 points a problem?

by thezzyzx 2008-06-05 11:31AM | 0 recs
It's Not

Per CBS, Obama currently leads McCain by 6% and Clinton currently leads McCain by 9%.

Hardly a surprise.  Both Obama and McCain have been focusing on each other for the past several weeks.  It's easy to poll 3% better than someone else when:
a) That someone else is getting attacked by someone (McCain) who never bothers to attack you, and
b) That someone else is not bothering to attack you and has long since turned his attention to his general election opponent (again, McCain)

by Collideascope 2008-06-05 11:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

What's amazing is that Obama is beating McCain by six points even with all of the supposed defections.  This will be the last time I ever say this: never thought it was a great calling card for Clinton that her supporters were so willing to tell pollsters they'd vote for McCain (that's a badge of honor?).  But enough.  The silly season is over.

by IncognitoErgoSum 2008-06-05 11:32AM | 0 recs
Um, so?

Why is anyone even doing this kind of polling anymore?  The voters have spoken, so who cares?

by jarhead5536 2008-06-05 11:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

As long as we are discussing also rans, how did John Edwards do?

by Lefty Coaster 2008-06-05 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Pablano did an interesting story on this phenomenon the other day.  Basically, his argument is that, if Clinton took the steps necessary to win the nomination at this point (i.e., have a floor fight in late August at the convention), the resulting animosity would likely knock her down to whatever level Obama is currently polling at, if not well below that line.  

Anyway, Obama is also beating McCain, so I don't see what the big deal is.

by rfahey22 2008-06-05 11:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

The big deal is this shows us that the state of the Democratic party is strong.  Maybe that was not the diarist's intent, but I will take it as a good sign that we have any number of candidates that could beat the Republican nominee.

by mikes101 2008-06-05 11:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

Clinton party is over, go see her on Sat for the farewell.

now STOP, you are embarrassing yourself.

by notedgeways 2008-06-05 11:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

I'm Nicolas Chauvin and I have approved this message.

by amadon 2008-06-05 12:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

How's Gravel doing?

by nightsweat 2008-06-05 12:06PM | 0 recs
Re:

i bet frank zappa would poll well against mccain,

but unfortunately he is dead.

by citizendave 2008-06-05 12:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

who cares?

hillary clinton is now an also-ran, an irrelevancy, the wendell willke of her time.

done.
gone.
finished.

and soon enough, forgotten.

by rabidnation 2008-06-05 12:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton beating McCain by 9 points in CBS poll

oh yeah, why obama met with forgotten lady in secret meeting yesterday? just to tell her that she is gone?

By the way you comment above is very good as an unification effort - good luck with that.

by engels 2008-06-06 01:38PM | 0 recs

Diaries

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