Education, Bravery and the Hideousness of Fanaticism.

(cross posted at kickin it with cg and motley moose)

Several news outlets are revisiting the heinous acts that occurred back in November when 15 Afghani schoolgirls and their female teachers were viciously attacked by men on motorcycles in Kandahar.

One morning two months ago, Shamsia Husseini and her sister were walking through the muddy streets to the local girls school when a man pulled alongside them on a motorcycle and posed what seemed like an ordinary question.

"Are you going to school?"

The men squirted the acid from water bottles onto three groups of females and the act was meant to terrorize them into staying home. A literal violent attempt to expunge any element of free will in their minds, to burn or sear obedience into them. These despicable acts are an apt expression of the medieval thinking that characterized the rule of the Taliban from 1996 to 2001 in Afghanistan and at which times girls were banned from schools.

For a few days after the attacks, parents kept their children away from the 5 year old Mirwais School for Girls built by the Japanese government. Then the headmaster, Mahmood Qadari - a man - reached out to the parents, and promised them greater police protection. "If you don't send your daughters to school, then the enemy wins," Qadari told the New York Times. "I told them not to give in to darkness. Education is the way to improve our society."

And then an amazing thing happened, they began to come back. Today most of the school's 1,300 girls, including nearly all of the wounded ones, have refused to be cowed. "My parents told me to keep coming to school even if I am killed," Shamsia, 17, told The Times. "The people who did this to me don't want women to be educated. They want us to be stupid things." The girls' have learned to be brave -- and are providing an inspirational lesson in defiance.

Eduction is integral to any constructive future Afghanistan might have. Of the 5.7 million students enrolled last year, according to Afghan government data, 35% are girls. About 800,000 of the total were new students, and 40% of them are girls. The high schools graduated 69,000 students, of whom 25% are girls.

During Hillary Clinton's confirmation hearing last Tuesday, Sen. Barbara Boxer, of California, said"no woman or girl should have to grow up and face persecution for having being born female", and referred to acid attacks common against women in Pakistan. Clinton said the issue is "central to our foreign policy."

"It is heartbreaking beyond words that, you know, young girls are attacked on their way to school by Taliban sympathizers and members who do not want young women to be educated." Clinton responded, "This is not culture. This is not custom. This is criminal. And it will be my hope to persuade more government ... that we cannot have a free, prosperous, peaceful, progressive world if women are treated in such a discriminatory and violent way."

Some people disfigure little girls because of religious fanaticism. Some people deny Israel the right to exist because of religious fanaticism. Some people deny Palestinians the right to sovereignty because of religious fanaticism. Some people deny women the right to abortions because of religious fanaticism. Some people deny gay people the right to marry because of religious fanaticism.

In my humble opinion, the world could do without religious fanatics.

Tags: acid attacks, Afghanistan, Bravery, Education, girls, Taliban (all tags)



tips for the Mirwais School for Girls...

by canadian gal 2009-01-26 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: tips for the Mirwais School for Girls...

Well done, CG.  With HRC installed at state, perhaps our foreign policy will begin to take women's rights and human rights seriously again.  When moral obligation meets political opportunity, history can get going again.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 04:01AM | 0 recs
Re: tips for the Mirwais School for Girls...

"the world could do without religious fanatics."

Here, here. Who cannot agree with this statement. And if Hillary can do just a modicum of what we hope she can do, most people will be satisfied. Fortunately, most Muslims around the world have a distain for the extremists, who would turn the world back to the middle ages.

Extremists, whether they be Muslim or Christian or Judaic, should not be premitted to control the world.

by MainStreet 2009-01-27 10:00AM | 0 recs
Thanks, cg...

Great diary. The women of Afghanistan... Hell, the women of the world shouldn't be forgotten!

by atdleft 2009-01-27 05:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Education, Bravery and the Hideousness of Fana

I really like the tone of this diary. We have to protect human rights around the world and get angry when these fanatics try to get away with murder. Highly Rec

by Politicalslave 2009-01-26 07:46PM | 0 recs
how Zionists use liberalism as a weapon

Why is it that Israel's staunchest defenders--the people who can justify bombings that kill 1,000 Palestinians--engage in the most hand wringing about Muslims who engage in bad treatment of women and homosexuals?

Doesn't it seem inconsistent to fret about the niceties of Muslims accepting gays and feminism at the same time your willing to kill the people en masse?

This is a longstanding propaganda campaign by liberal Zionists. These liberal Zionists take stories that are often true and bang the drum to prove that Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians are bad people. This propaganda then is used to emotionally justify Israel abridging the human rights of Palestinians.

Liberalism is not supposed to be a test where if people fail to be sufficiently liberal people with guns come to take away your rights.

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 02:58AM | 0 recs
Re: how Zionists use liberalism as a weapon

I find this comment completely inappropriate.  One could just as easily flip the question and ask why people whose moral passion burns in such sympathy with Palestinians somehow often fall mute in the face of brutality practiced by other Muslims, particularly against Muslim women.  Or for that matter, anyone's brutality against women.  I don't find this to be a particularly true, fair, or relevant claim either.

Throwing acid at women who teach girls and the girls who seek to learn from them hardly qualifies as a nicety in my book.

Furthermore, though CG doesn't need anyone to speak for her, her support for Israel has never precluded sympathy with Palestinian suffering, even if she may understand that situation differently from you or me.

Finally, CG raises an important issue here and does so appropriately.  Your implicit accusation that she wrote this diary simply to deflect attention from Gaza seems shot through with extremely bad faith.

Let's keep this thread about how American foreign policy, particularly with HRC running state, can address the plight of women and girls around the world.  Women's rights are human rights, not just because women are human, but because there is a demonstrable correlation between the status of human rights and the situation of women and girls.  Where women and girls are fully respected, human rights in general tend to be respected.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 03:59AM | 0 recs

when you view the taliban atrocities vs islam itself it would seem that we get the balanced outlook above.

perhaps some view muslims in as much as they are not more or less obliged to condemn the behaviour of violent extremists than anyone else. moderate muslims are no more co-religionists with the taliban than grannies sitting in anglican pews are with the ku klux klan.

there are an estimated 30,000 taliban/al queda operatives trying to secure control over the 33 million afghanis, most of whom are muslim . these cowardly acts and their justifications are beyond comprehension.

by canadian gal 2009-01-27 06:27AM | 0 recs
You miss the point

No one has the right to to torture and kill, beat and take away the freedom of others.....not a country and not some paternalistic religious nut.

Just because a bully does it in their own country, in their own community and bases it on religion makes it no less horrid than when governments do it to each other.

Blaming Israel to justify some idiotic torture by some men who think they have the right to tell women and girls how to live seems counterproductive and sick.

by Jjc2008 2009-01-27 04:03AM | 0 recs
Re: You miss the point

Jewish institutions and Zionists seem to relish in fanning the flames of stories that depict Muslims as culturally backwards.

Then Zionists argue that the United States should back Israel because of "shared values".

Picture a MyDD contributor who argued the horrible things Blacks do and posted half his threads about Black men raping "White" women and half his threads defending segregation.

Would you see the threads about Black men raping "White" women as disconnected from his support for segregation?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 04:35AM | 0 recs
Re: You miss the point

Stop trolling this thread.  I find your analogy both ridiculous in form and completely anti-ethical.  The diarist is not the agent of a conspiratorial institution.  You are seriously compromising your credibility here.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 04:48AM | 0 recs
Re: You miss the point

Is the author a Zionist?

Of the Zionists at MyDD, is Canadian Gal further to the Right than most?

Is the author peddling a story that casts Muslims in a bad light?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 06:42AM | 0 recs
Re: You miss the point

1. Seems so.

2. Not necessarily.

3. No.  The author is presenting a story that shows the plight of particular Muslims at the hand of other Muslims in an area of the world that our country currently administers.

You are not responding to the diary.  You are responding to your necessarily fallible and ideologically over-determined reading of the author's motivations.  Given that she registers opposition to Jewish religious fanatics alongside Palestinian religious fanatics, it seems quite clear that she is taking care not to make this a blanket attack on Islam in general.  I don't see that you have adequate grounds to question her sincerity.  

If CG had raised this in comment on your diary about the I/P conflict, you could fairly accuse her of obfuscation, and I would support your accusation.  But that's not what is happening here at all.  Given that your comment impugns her motives without grounds, and not the content of her diary, your comments in this thread are nothing more than an ad hominem attack.  

Don't you think this is a event that warrants attention?  Don't you register it's timeliness given the change in administration and HRC's appointment as SOS?  

This very morning, my wife left to teach three classes at a local university and shortly afterward I took our daughter to school.  The women and girls described in this diary have no less of a right to teach and learn than my wife and daughter.  Opposing what is being done to them by Taliban agents seems as controversial as opposing rape or forced prostitution.  By attacking the messenger without cause you demean this message and appear both coarse and cynical.  

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 06:55AM | 0 recs
Re: You miss the point

How does one create the propaganda campaign to go to war?

How does one create the propaganda to implement segregation? Apartheid? Or the perpetual oppression of Zionism?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 07:22AM | 0 recs
Re: You miss the point

In many many ways.  This diary does not participate in that.  In your view all Jews who have opposed the genocide in Darfur are merely propagandists.  Indeed, such claims have circulated in the Arab press.  It's ridiculous.  So is this entire trollish line you are pursuing here.  

I've answered your questions.  Now perhaps you will be so good as to return the favor and answer mine.  Does the content of this diary seem relevant and timely to you or not?  

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 07:46AM | 0 recs
Re: You miss the point

Having been involved in human rights issues in the United States, I don't think Zionists fretting about human rights abuses in Afghanistan is useful.

There are plenty of human rights abuses in our own country. I think going halfway around the world to pick a human rights violation is suspicious.

Is this diary relevant? Relevant to what?

I think the subject is less important than other issues that should be raised.

Timely? Sure the diary is timely in that Israel just slaughtered a 1,000+ Palestinians, peace is further than ever, and Zionists need something to remind Americans of why they are bigoted against Muslims.

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 08:09AM | 0 recs
Re: You miss the point

Having been involved in human rights issues in the United States and in Israel, I think anyone drawing attention to human rights abuses is a positive contribution.

Your ascription of conspiratorial motives reeks of bias.  Your attempt to place this diary in a different context simply to attack this diarist at the expense of raising a valid subject positions you, not her, as the propagandist.

Here's a sincere and constructive suggestion.  Compose a diary of your own on the question of whether anyone who identifies as a Jew or a Zionist can sincerely address any other issue, whether and/or when they should be called out for obfuscation, and whether we should permit them to speak about anything.  How do we know who to take seriously and when to take them seriously?  But do not do this here.  In this context, you are the one obfuscating.  Stop it now.  Raise this issue in your own diary and I will discuss it there and then.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 08:17AM | 0 recs
Re: You miss the point

No offense, but you're really coming off like a fucking lunatic.  Maybe take the crazy and warped logic down a notch.  Try responding to the content of the diary.

by fogiv 2009-01-27 08:02AM | 0 recs
Get over yourself

and take your biases and hate elsewhere.

by Jjc2008 2009-01-27 04:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Get over yourself

I'm not the one who argued that killing 1,000 Palestinians was justified.

That's the person who is supposedly wringing her hands about these poor victims in Afghanistan.

Do you see how a reasonable person might doubt Canadian Gal's sincerity?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 06:44AM | 0 recs
You are not

seemingly a reasonable person. You see one side and resort to labels and nastiness against a diarist who is arguably one of the most fair and compassionate posters I have ever read.

You are blinded by hate and bias and that gets us nowhere.

by Jjc2008 2009-01-27 07:48AM | 0 recs

Are you seriously saying it's OK to men in Islamist societies to abuse women because the Palestineans are attacked by the Israelis? How is that different from the radical Likudites saying that the Holocaust gives them "carte blanche" to attack Palestineans? Perhaps instead of playing some "Who's the worst oppressor?" game, shouldn't we work to end any type of oppression that's killing people?

by atdleft 2009-01-27 05:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Huh?

How does this diary work to end misogyny or oppression in Afghanistan?

The following MyDD accounts feel this diary is noteworthy enough they recommended it:

Steve M
the national gadfly

How many of these accounts have recommended a diary about human rights violations in the United States in the last three months?

Human rights violations in Iraq? Israel-Palestine?

I can buy that some feminists feel the need to jump on this kind of story.

But the peddling of stories of rape and other atrocities is the war propaganda game.

I'm gonna call out stuff that looks like anti-Muslim propaganda.

BTW, how many of the people recommending this diary supported or made excuses for Israel killing 1,000+ Palestinians in Gaza? Doesn't it seem odd that Zionists who rationalize killing Muslims are outraged by misogyny among Muslims? How many of those 1,000+ Palestinians were women and girls?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 08:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Huh?


by spacemanspiff 2009-01-27 08:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Huh?

Oh no!  We've been exposed!  We're all propagandists on the Zionist payroll and depend upon our secrecy to wield our diabolical influence.  I'm pressing the big red button in my basement to summon the Elders of Zion to rectify this immediately.

I am humiliated that my opposition to savage violence against women educators and their students has been brought to light.  But I confess, I indeed "feel the need to jump at that kind of story."  Please forgive me for caring about this.

For Carl: SNARK!!!  The rest of us get that.

Carl, you seem to be the ONLY one here who reads this story as an attack on Arabs and/or Muslims or an attempt to divert attention from Gaza.  Based on prior experience with the diarist and the balanced and careful presentation of content in this diary, the rest of us think you've been sniffing glue.

I'll say it again.  Write your own diary on this conspiracy.  Make sure it contains as many unfounded accusations and slimy aspersions as your present comment.  

Crap like this does nothing to help Palestinians.  Rather it undermines the credibility of the peace movement, which many of us on this list actively support.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 08:35AM | 0 recs
My question in turn is: Are you using

I/P conflict to divert attention from gender apartheid that are been practised in some countries using religious justification?

by louisprandtl 2009-01-27 09:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Huh?

Damn, I remember when it used to be okay for liberals to talk about human rights violations.  In this country AND around the world.

I remember as a kid, reading the releases from Amnesty International, and thinking what a great organization this is, calling attention to so many horrendous abuses.

I dunno if it's the fault of Bush and the neocons for fucking with your brain so much that now when you hear someone talking about human rights abuses, all you can think is that this person must be trying to trick us all into going to war, the same way Bush did by talking about liberating the people of Iraq.  But long before Iraq ever happened, liberals used to talk about human rights because it's the sort of thing liberals talk about.

I doubt that anyone here will deny that Israel has done and continues to do some pretty rotten things.  The problem is that you appear to think that any discussion about human rights abuses around the world ought to go something like ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL... oh yeah, and then maybe a little more about Israel to top it off.

Suggesting that CG wrote this diary as part of a campaign to inflame hatred against Muslims in general is just deranged.  Even people who generally take a pro-Palestinian view are starting to see you as a nut for ranting on about this.  And if CG and all her recommenders, including myself, really had some secret Zionist agenda, you couldn't be helping us more with all this frothing at the mouth.

by Steve M 2009-01-27 09:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Huh?

"I'm gonna call out stuff that looks like anti-
Muslim propaganda."

No it's anti-fundamentalist propaganda.  For you to categorize it as anti-muslim, means that 1) you miss the entire point of the diary and 2) you yourself believe that muslim = fundamentalist islamic male that throws acid on girls faces.

Don't be anti-muslim, support the moderate women and children.

by KLRinLA 2009-01-27 11:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Huh?

Well said.  And it's not even propaganda at all.  It's reporting on violent abuses by maniacs in an area of the world administered by our own armed forces.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 11:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Huh?

yes, it is not propaganda, I was just having fun with Nyberg's words.  I hope he responds - I need a drink.

I also appreciate being called a Zionist, especially when I have kept out of the I/P debates as I am not informed, nor emphatic, enough about either side to voice an opinion, except that it appears to be bad, should stop, and hopefully results in a truly equitable agreement.

by KLRinLA 2009-01-27 12:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Huh?

Cheers to all of that!

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 12:05PM | 0 recs
I dont know about the rest...

but I regularly recommend diaries on Gaza.  I myself had a diary on the Israel/Gaza conflict a few days back.

I haven't been registered here too long, so I cannot comment on your other topics.

I also know that this particular diarist has a history of being fair and reasonable.  She has written diaries on women's issues dating back to the primary wars, so this particular diary is entirely consistent with her previously described concerns for female welfare.  

I do not agree with her on some of her diaries, but I do know that she is not a raving lunatic.

And that is more than what I can say about you!!

by Ravi Verma 2009-01-27 12:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Huh?

Wow.  What a dick.

by SpanishFly 2009-01-27 12:41PM | 0 recs
Re: how Zionists use liberalism as a weapon

I think the point is that fanaticism of any kind is bad, and that HRC as SOS has indicated this will be dealt with is good.  

by KLRinLA 2009-01-27 06:16AM | 0 recs
Re: how Zionists use liberalism as a weapon

I am a frequent critic of Israel and especially the AIPAC influence on US foreign policy. But this comment is ridiculous. Let's face it. There are some serious human rights problems in many Islamic countries. Palestinian misery doesn't mean other Islamic countries are off the hook.

by Pravin 2009-01-28 04:41AM | 0 recs
Great diary

Canadian girl.

Years, decades, centuries of women and girls being beaten and torture because of some paternalistic sadism based on religion is as unacceptable now as it should have been in the 1980s when in Afghanistan the rise of violence against women and children based on extremist views was coming to the attention of the world.  We stood by silently, our governments, in the name of what?  Tolerance for a those who believe the have the right to beat, kill, enslave women and girls because of religion?  

It's hard to believe that in this millenium there are still so many societies that tolerate this kind of violence against women.

by Jjc2008 2009-01-27 04:07AM | 0 recs
Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Dude you are so fucking predictable I could recite your line.

You've only got 1.

by spacemanspiff 2009-01-27 07:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Zionist! blah blah blah Jews blah blah blah

by fogiv 2009-01-27 08:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

I h'rated all of you posts Carl. Get your flame on somewhere else asshole.

You have crossed the line from debate to hate.

by spacemanspiff 2009-01-27 08:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Zionists using their power to squelch criticism of Zionism. How original!

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 08:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.


Dude you are so over the top.

Stop embarassing yourself.

by spacemanspiff 2009-01-27 08:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

You being worried about me embarrassing myself while hiding my posts seems analogous to....

Canadian Gal fretting about mistreatment of Muslim girls while advocating the IDF be allowed to kill Muslims girls.

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 08:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Insert sound of cuckoo clock here.

by fogiv 2009-01-27 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Do you support hiding criticism of Zionism?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 08:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

You offer no criticism of Zionism here.  You are unfairly attacking someone who is trying to raise a relevant issue in a clear and fair manner.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 08:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Yes, as an atheist from a family of Irish Catholics, I feel Zionist Jews should kill all Muslims with impunity, and eventually rule the globe via the World Bank.  Additionally, I think the Pyramid of Giza was constructed by aliens, and I know for a fact that Elvis Presley works in an upholstery shop four blocks from my house.

Is that what you want to hear, you crazy bastard?  Will you go away now?  Hurry, "Jew" is contagious.  Wouldn't want any of that getting on you.

by fogiv 2009-01-27 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Pure Poetry!  Just what I would expect from a mick.

Well played.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 08:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Heh.  I prefer you're style of anti-trollery, but am happy to be of service in my own small way.  ;)

by fogiv 2009-01-27 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

So, you have no concerns that the people who stand by Israel slaughtering a 1,000+ Palestinians might be motivated by bigotry when criticizing Muslims on human rights?

You think that position is equivalent to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

Do you see a connection between propaganda and war generally?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 08:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Rrrinnggg...  Time to make this case your own diary.

Ascribing conspiratorial motives in the way that you do and suggesting that someone who supports Israel is acting as an agent of its propaganda does indeed resemble the perspective on Jews in the Protocols.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 09:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

You don't think Israeli Jews or American Jewish Zionists have an issue with bigotry toward Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians?

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 09:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

You don't think that this question represents a crude and ridiculous homogenization of Jewish and Israeli opinion?  

The very form of your question reveals your bigotry.  My answer: as with any other group, some are bigots and some are not.  I am convinced that this is not the case with this diarist and don't believe you have ANY credible grounds to make this accusation.

Why are you so afraid to actually try and make your case in your own diary?  If you think it's so important, lay it out there for us.  I would be grateful if I had the ability to divine who is sincere and when, especially among my conspiratorial and duplicitous fellows.  If you've got the key, please lay it out there for us.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 09:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Do you see a connection between propaganda and war generally?

I see all sorts of things.  Werewolves mostly.  They live among us.  Generally they work as enforcers for the Elders of Zion.

Sorry, you're not to be taken seriously.  You're a detriment to the cause you would have us all believe you support.

by fogiv 2009-01-27 09:04AM | 0 recs

you leave a diary for a few hours and it goes into crazyland....  

how the issue of throwing acid into little girls faces and education in afghanistan became a contentious issue is both amusing and troubling at the same time.

by canadian gal 2009-01-27 10:05AM | 0 recs
Re: heh.

The people who threw acid at girls in Afghanistan did it because they believe in an ideology and want to intimidate girls and their families into acquiescing to their ideology.

The people who threw bombs at girls in Palestine did it because they believe in an ideology and want to intimidate girls and their families into acquiescing to their ideology.

The chief difference is you agree with one ideology and disagree with the other.

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 12:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

MyDD has its own Blago.

Give a big hand to Carl "Unhinged" Nyberg!

by spacemanspiff 2009-01-27 08:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Name calling! Wow! That's a powerful argument.

Your Zionist peers standby while you hide my post and engage in name calling.

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 08:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

-Roger Alan Wade

by fogiv 2009-01-27 08:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Right now I am concerned with how you are undermining the credibility of the peace movement and thus harming Palestinians with this imbecilic behavior.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 08:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.


Well, I suppose it would be interesting to see if a Palestinian thought I was the one harming the cause of human rights or not.

The Zionists clearly don't like criticism of Zionism or Zionist bigotry against Muslims, Arabs and Palestinians.

But something tells me the path to peace involves offending some Zionists along the way.

by Carl Nyberg 2009-01-27 08:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

The fact that you think your behavior here appears to anyone but yourself as "criticism of Zionism" or of "Zionist bigotry against Muslims, Arabs, and Palestinians" is the problem.  It's not.  But I guess you have no other avenue to justify the stupidity and bigotry you display here.

Has even one other reader of this diary recognized the validity of your comments?  

I guess that means that either you are wrong (and perhaps deranged) or the rest of us are Zionist patsies.  Given the list of recommenders you pasted into your comment, the former has much more credibility.

Come on.  Prove your point in your own diary.  Can you do it?  Or is your concern for Palestinians just a cover for anti-social shenanigans?

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 08:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Hey everybody, I've an idea for a new drinking game:  every time Carl uses some form of "Zion", have a chug!  This last comment alone is worth four drinks!

Let's get ripped!

by fogiv 2009-01-27 08:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

A noun.

A verb.


by spacemanspiff 2009-01-27 09:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

Oh yeah?

The Zionists clearly don't like criticism of Zionism or Zionist

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

by spacemanspiff 2009-01-27 09:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

That depends.  A Jewish woodchuck lends money to other woodchucks and charges interest.  Then the woodchuck Jew uses those profits to increase the number of other woodchucks indebted to him.  Finally, the Jewish woodchuck purchases political influence to promote the interests of Jewish woodchucks worldwide at the expense of anyone and everyone else.  So Jewish woodchucks actually chuck no wood at all.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 09:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Carl Nyberg craps all over another diary.

What's worse: all that chucked wood resulted in the deforestation of Palestine.  Sure, it's mostly desert now, but before the Zionists came that was all rain forest, baby.

by fogiv 2009-01-27 09:19AM | 0 recs

Important diary, CG.  Thanks.

by fogiv 2009-01-27 08:03AM | 0 recs
Nyberg's comments

Nyberg's comments highlight an important point that I learned about when I lived and worked in Egypt or three years: If the Muslim world did not have Israel to blame their problems on, they would have to create it.

Israel has been such a foil for deflecting and blaming legitimate criticism of actors and events in the Muslim world for decades.  Any criticism was deflected, because of one of the following:

  • Israel was supposedly the real source of that problem
  • Israel was supposedly the source of other problems, that dwarfed that problem or caused that problem
  • Zionists were supposedly behind the criticism in order to weaken the Muslim world

Thus any issues of poverty, underdevelopment corruption, violence, male-female relations, economic failures in Egypt (and presumably in many other Muslim countries around the world) were deemed unworthy of discussion.  And people who tried to raise the criticisms were attacked as Zionist agents.

A sad state of affairs.

by markjay 2009-01-27 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Nyberg's comments

Sad indeed.  The problem is that at the same time we must attend to the way Israel does indeed cause massive harm to Palestinians.  (I don't mean to imply that you agree or disagree with this point).  In other words, just because some anti-Zionists are anti-Semitic doesn't mean that Zionism and Israeli policy should be shielded from valid criticism.  Futhermore, one should not make the mistake of believing that settling the I/P conflict will eradicate anti-Semitism.  And as you correctly note, it will not offer a panacea for all of the injustices throughout the world.  Nonetheless, we must continue to pursue a just peace.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 09:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Nyberg's comments

That is true, but there are many well intentioned anti-Zionists who are in the same bed with some pretty awful people (anti-Semites) and are not aware of it.  For the anti-Zionists to have more credibility they need to do a better job of acknowledging that there are anti-Semites among them and ridding them from a valid dialogue.  I am a Zionist who can be critical of Israel like many other Zionists, that is not uncommon.  I used to call myself an anti-Zionists, but couldn't stomach the 'partnership' with the anti-Semites.  Overall the the Zionist/anti-Zionists titles don't mean a thing.  How many augruments are summarized by in the comments by just calling someone a Zionists - pretty empty.

by oc 2009-01-27 10:31AM | 0 recs
totally agree.

but the same can also be said for zionists as well - hanging with the hagee's of the world to bring on the apocalypse isn't shall we say my point of view.

by canadian gal 2009-01-27 10:36AM | 0 recs
Re: totally agree.

True, but Hagee and his gang stand out as nuts, they are not embraced by the 'left'.  The anti-Zionists are part of the dialogue of the left (as are Zionists), so in my mind it's much more important to clean shop among the anti-Zionist crowd because it's so easy for the anti-Semites to slip on in and derail progress or discussion within the left/progressive/democrats/whatever...

Also, I don't see any Hagee-ites(?) posting or commenting on left wing blogs.  I could be wrong though!

BTW, I really enjoy your writing, call me a groupee.

by oc 2009-01-27 10:47AM | 0 recs
What about Netanyahu?

What about Perle, Krauthammer, Kristol and the "Pop a Pali for pizza/Rachel "pancake" Corrie" crowd?  The idea that the Zionists are in better company is ridiculous.

by JJE 2009-01-27 12:17PM | 0 recs
Re: What about Netanyahu? Huh?

You didn't read my comment, I am refering to anti-Semites who hide in the crowd of the anti-Zionist left.  The Zionists and anti-Zionists of the left play an important role in discussing I/P policy and events.  The anti-Semites hiding in the ranks of well intentioned anti-Zionists should not, don't you agree?  Nowhere is Perle, Krauth or Kristol part of the left.  Or Netanyahu.  I do not agree with them, but I would not rank them as comparable to the anti-Semites just because of policy differences.  That is ridiculous.  They support Israel (blindly perhaps), but I have never seen any quote by them insulting Muslims or calling for Arab genocide or blaming all the world's wars and financial crisis' on the Arab (or Persian) world or Arabs baking pita with the blood of Jewish children.

One should not be accused of being an anti-Semite or a racist casually.  To accuse the men you listed of being equal to the hatemongers is wrong, despite their political leanings.

However, if you show quotes that prove otherwise I'll agree.  I also agree that any Zionist whose position is based on Arab hate is just as bad as any anti-Semite. I just don't see that on the left.

by oc 2009-01-27 12:41PM | 0 recs

the left doesn't play much of any role in I/P policy and events, except to occasionally provide rhetorical cover to people like Perle, Krauthammer, and Kristol, who actually do play a role.

Which anti-semites are where are they on the left?  At some protest?  It is difficult to meet your quote challenge without knowing what you are talking about.

by JJE 2009-01-27 01:39PM | 0 recs
Re: actually

I'm sorry - I thought Carter, Clinton and Obama are part of the left.  Remember the Carter, Egypt, Israel love fest?  That was somewhat I/P based.

It may be difficult to meet the 'quote' challenge because you can't find any.  You accused Perle, Krauthammer and Kristol of being the Zionist equivalent of anti-Semites.  You agreed that anti-Semites exist among anti-Zionists, but then said the Zionists have their version in the people (P, K and K) listed above.  I disagree.  All I ask is that you provide a link or something to support that accusation, that's all.

by oc 2009-01-27 02:52PM | 0 recs
And we all know

how successful Clinton, who would be in the center-right anywhere but America, was.  Obama will meet the same failures.  He'd be wise to leave the situation well alone.

Here's Krauthammer: "By a landslide, the Palestinian people have chosen these known stances: rejectionism, Islamism, terrorism, rank anti-Semitism and the destruction of Israel in a romance of blood, death and revolution."  I guess accusing Palestinians of being a death cult is just a policy difference.

Continue to ignore the "pop a pali for pizza" crowd and focus only on people who get published in the WaPo.

by JJE 2009-01-27 04:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Nyberg's comments

The lack of a solution to the I-P conflict does, of course, detract from our credibility to address other issues in the region because of our non-negotiable role as a partisan for Israel.  In other words, they use this deflection ploy because it works.  So that's just another reason why we need to take the I-P situation head on.  Heck, even Khadafi is talking about constructive solutions!

by Steve M 2009-01-27 10:00AM | 0 recs
Stupid muslims

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity.

by JJE 2009-01-27 10:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Stupid muslims

So you ascribe to Ann Coulter's solution?

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 10:42AM | 0 recs

Subscribe to it, even.  

Clearly the ignorance and backwardness of the Muslim world, as described by famed Middle East expert markjay, precludes any other solution.

by JJE 2009-01-27 11:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Indeed

Oh right.  Subscribe.  Thanks for catching my diction error.

I don't think your characterization of his comment here is fair.  It's structurally similar to screaming "anti-Semite" at anyone who questions Zionism.  

Just because there is anti-Semitism in the Arab press (and yes, I believe there is) and just because some manipulate the I/P conflict to draw attention away from other ills does not mean that the I/P situation does not require redress.  At the same time, recognizing that we must act to resolve the I/P conflict does not mean that these phenomena are not problematic.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 11:18AM | 0 recs
I disagree

his comment would be structurally similar to someone saying "If Israelis didn't have the holocaust, they'd have to invent it."

by JJE 2009-01-27 11:21AM | 0 recs
Re: I disagree

People argue this all the time.  Some argue they did invent it.  Books have been written...  

But I don't think it's the same thing.

The cynical manipulation of the I/P conflict and the exaggerated explanatory capacity it has in the Arab world is a problem.  I think it needs to be addressed.  But I think it needs to be addressed in ways that do not diminish the necessity of addressing the real injustices there.  Hence my response to him.

by Strummerson 2009-01-27 11:30AM | 0 recs

But of course markjay-style Muslim-bashing isn't going to help address it.  I'm glad you recognize that but not everyone does, as you can see by the three endorsements.

by JJE 2009-01-27 11:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Good

Actually, what hurts people around the world is patronizing them political correctness that glosses over problems.

I have spent decades organizing against, marching against, and fighting against what's wrong with my own country.  I have also fought against and marched against Israeli's actions that I opposed.  I spent three years working hard, at the invitation of the Egyptian Ministry of Education and Ministry of Higher Education, assisting Egypt in improving its educational efforts.  The teachers, students, and parents I met there didn't want me to ignore challenges that Egypt faces.  They wanted me to work with them to help identify and overcome them.  And that's what I did, and I earned a good deal of respect for my expertise and efforts.

To point out that serious problems in the Muslim world that need to be addressed is not Muslim-bashing, just as pointing out serious problems in the U.S., Israel, or other countries is not bashing those countries.

by markjay 2009-01-27 12:19PM | 0 recs
clap clap

Good for you for taking up the white man's burden.  Doesn't redeem your blanket Muslim-bashing.

by JJE 2009-01-27 12:26PM | 0 recs

is just another version of the other attempted hijacking and trollery done in this thread its just being executed in another style.  i did not take your comment to be bashing muslims and neither did anyone else who is sincere.

by canadian gal 2009-01-27 01:37PM | 0 recs
oh get over yourself

Not everyone finds your maudlin self-congratulation that compelling.

by JJE 2009-01-27 01:40PM | 0 recs
that's an interesting characterization,

of this diary.  but whatever floats your boat.  its just that by my count that is your 8th comment in a diary that you so eloquently describe as not compelling.  none of which address the contents written, as they say if it walks like a duck...

by canadian gal 2009-01-27 02:30PM | 0 recs
all these comments

responding to markjay's comment.  you have an odd definition of hijacking.  The diary as a whole is fine, aside from the little passive aggressive trollbait.

by JJE 2009-01-27 03:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Education, Bravery and the Hideousness of Fana

I assume CG and Carl Nyberg both care about children around the world. That CG takes the time to remind us of this injustice is important. I also believe we should understand that Carl Nyberg is passionate about helping the people of Gaza. Calling him names is wrong, as well as hiding his comments even though the people of Gaza were not brought up. Rec

by Politicalslave 2009-01-27 05:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Education, Bravery and the Hideousness of Fana

You are probably right, but Nyberg has gotten out of hand, and it is is obvious; i.e., all the reccers of this diary have been labeled by Nyberg as part of a zionist scheme as part of an effort to promote the eradication of Palestine.  I was quite offended by that and that is a trollish comment, deserving of a lower rating.  

Sometimes well meaning people can lose it for a bit and there is nothing wrong with letting them know that unacceptable behavior is unacceptable with the tools you are provided.  

But you make a fair point about the likely qualities of Nyberg and it should be considered in future comments and hopefully his more histrionic comments today do not cast a permanent label in this community

by KLRinLA 2009-01-27 06:43PM | 0 recs


Advertise Blogads