Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Well, the results are mostly in and it appears that Prop 8 will end up passing, relatively comfortably.  With 99% of all precincts reporting, we're down by about 500,000 votes.  

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results state#CA

Even with rumors of up to 3 million outstanding absentee ballots, it's not realistic to believe that kind of deficit will be overcome.  

Given an LA Times poll showing whites rejecting Prop 8, Hispanics tying, and Black Californians supporting it overwhelmingly, there has been some pushback from the gay community and venting about the unfairness of us having gone to the polls to overwhelmingly support the first AA President, while they, in essence, defecate on our rights.  One diary from Big Orange embodies this view at its most raw:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1 1/5/42455/4177/57/653884

Viewed in that light, it does seem piercing and unfair, but I'm writing this diary because I want to help contextualize the voting results and reframe our perspective.

1. The "enemy" here is not the African American community.  The enemy here is the Mormon church that wasted unprecedented gobs of money attacking California families.

2. A vote against marriage equality should not be read as underscoring some deeply held hatred for gays and lesbians, even though being on the receiving end of it can feel that way at times.  

3. In general, the African American community is a deeply caring and compassionate community that would espouse traditional marriage for the "right" reasons, rather than for the "wrong" reasons.  While I thoroughly disagree with the viewpoint, the motivation here is tradition and a genuine respect for a religious doctrine with which I happen to disagree.  I cannot stress how dramatically different this is from people who oppose marriage equality for the "wrong" reasons.  A vote against gay marriage is a vote of hate when it comes from the eternally tortured inferiority complexed Evangelical or sludge whites populating Appalachia, or the reigning queen of all hate states, Missouri.  Missouri was the first state to "proudly" amend its constitution to ban gay marriage, in the wake of the 2003 Massachusetts legalizing it.  It passed with a margin of victory that disgusted me, and clued me in on the fact that something was not right with that state.  (Look at last night's results for instance and see how far in the gutter Missouri has gone, compared to the nation's average.  It's +7% GOP, and much like Arkansas, Kentucky, and West Virginia, I promise you this isn't because there are droves of well-meaning anti-tax Republicans populating the place--it's the HATE vote.  Please let us write that state off in 2012.  Please.)

In a place like rural Missouri, derelict whites (esp. males) have fallen behind in the game of life.  They resent their urban peers who have trumped them in areas of finance, in education, in love, in happiness, in health, and everything.  They resent women who have gotten ahead of them.  They resent minorities who have gotten ahead of them.  Their GOP votes have nothing to do with foreign policy or pecuniary self-interest.  It's their valve of expressing just how much they envy and hate American cities, American progress, and every accoutrement of it, be it a vibrant artistic community, powerful women, true love, thriving universities, flourishing entertainment industries, unoppressed gays and Black Americans smiling and enjoying the day.  It drives them nuts.  Make no mistake--these are not happy people.  They hate life and the unapologetic delight in all it has to offer.  

By contrast, this is not what motivates the African American community in places like Los Angeles.  For Black Americans, the belief in "traditional" marriage is genuine; it is not a pretext used to guise a seething hatred for gays or for American life, as it is in rural Arkansas.    

4. Gays lashing out at African Americans is hurtful to progress.

On the losing end of every trend now and for the foreseeable future, the GOP will have no choice but to attempt to fracture the progressive coalition into factions.  Wounded as we may be as GLBT's, attacking African Americans won't help anything now or in the long term.  "How dare you!  After how we supported Obama!  How dare you!" Yes, it's tempting.  But don't go there.  This was not a vote of hate and an intra party rivalry will work against us.  A vote of Yes on Prop 8 is a vote of adherence to tradition and some confusion thrown in there by the Mormon church.  Whatever homophobia there may be in the culture, Black Americans do not have a fundamental HATRED of GLBT's.  Whatever belief in tradition held by the black church community, these are not people who would knowingly vote to subject other Americans to the hate of oppression.  

5. Reach out and educate.  We need to be working with Black leaders, not against them.

The oppression of Black Americans was the most egregious civil rights abuse in our country.  Don't ever try to deny it.  Sometimes people like to fight over whose tragedy was bigger or worse.  Don't play the game.  Acknowledge the deep centuries long scars of oppression AA's have experienced.  Be gracious.  Yes, it sucks that the government has been in our bedrooms a lot recently, have been messing around with our rights, and society tried to keep us "hush hush." But we were never publicly and openly enslaved.  We were never publicly lynched in numbers as disgustingly high as AA's.  We were never actually denied the right to vote (if we were white and male), and if we were, it wasn't on account of sexual orientation.  We were never constitutionally 3/5's of a person.  Black leaders naturally become very defensive about attempts to compare civil rights abuses against gays to those against AA's.  Let them have that claim.  Acknowledge it.  But from that point on, it's time to point out COMPARISONS between the civil rights struggles of minorities, women, and GLBT's, rather than CONTRASTS and come together to fight it in unison.  

Please, I urge everyone not to read too much into the results of Prop 8.  Do not misconstrue it as a hate vote; it isn't.  

These votes are ripe for change.  These are not the entrenched hateful rejections of American progress that stem from the jealous bowels of abandoned nowhere-villes.  We need to engage Black leaders and encourage them to speak to their communities about the importance of equality for all.  We need to remember that Black Americans are fundamentally GOOD people with whom we have much more in common with than in contrast.  Reach out and integrate.  We have a long battle ahead, but time is on our side.

Thank you for reading.  

Tags: Prop 8 California (all tags)

Comments

43 Comments

Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

what I don't get is that Obama beat McCain 60-37 in California, but Prop 8 got passed. This is a major silver lining for the GOP in 2010 and 2012. They'll say "even the most heavily Dem states don't like gay marriage." Somehow, we can't win on this issue. Tho MA did decriminalize weed, which is good

by Lakrosse 2008-11-05 02:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

In a long term trajectory, this is a victory for us.  

8 Years ago, California passed Prop 22, which did the same thing but at the non-constitutional level (a difference without a distinction for most voters).  

Prop 22 pastted 61.4 to 38.6

In 2008, even with the "real threat" of gay marriage, Prop 8 barely passed.  52% to 48%.  And this was with an admittedly disorganized campaign on our side v. the well funded well organized fundies on the right.

23 point spread down to a 4 point spread in 8 years, with only an anemic effort on our side and the most progressive segment (activists) in the state not in California, but rather helping GOTV and phone bank, Colorado, New Mexico, and Nevada.

While the sting is fresh and an outright win would be great, the trajectory is incredibly on our side.  Think of it as a blood red state now on the verge of turning blue.  In 4 years, maybe 2, we'll get there.  

This shit (pardon my Turkish) will probably end up back on the ballot in 2010.  You bet it will have high profile support on our side and a much SMARTER campaign.

by BPK80 2008-11-05 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Thanks for the comparison to Prop 22. I'm still very pissed about the results, but knowing that we did much better this time takes a bit of the sting away.

by LakersFan 2008-11-05 03:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Don't read too much into it.

We can't forget this has always been an uphill climb, and a marginal setback is a vast improvement from a major setback, as we'd have had 8 years ago.  Even what looks to be awful numbers in Florida are a big improvement from similarly situated states just 4 to 6 years ago, where these things were regularly passing with 75%, 80% and even more disgusting percentages of the vote.

Civil unions are mainstream and have great support.  Marriage was always the biggest one, and we're actually getting there.  In the 1990's, this was unforeseeable.  Now we have shattered tons of barriers both for us, for women, for people of color, and have just installed a president who will set the judiciary for progress for decades.  Keep the faith.  

by BPK80 2008-11-05 03:21PM | 0 recs
P.S. Blacks and Gays

Loving Vs Virginia 1967 ended all race-based legal restrictions on marriage in the United States...that is pretty recent history. Within 40 years of that decision that was also based on religion and custom two states allow marriages between partners of the same gender. I agree the change is happening too slowly but change is slow.

by Ida B 2008-11-05 09:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Agreed, we've come a long way, if this had happened five years ago it wouldn't have even been close.  Every ballot initiative can be repealed.  We will make this right again.

by Skaje 2008-11-06 09:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

And don't forget, Californians gave chickens more rights.

Doesn't that just make you feel less than livestock?  Now where have we heard that before in American History?

by emsprater 2008-11-05 07:49PM | 0 recs
Tips or Flames

Flames for the flamer?  :-D  Go ahead, kindle.

by BPK80 2008-11-05 02:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Bite my Ass and keep your 5-10 point bullet bullshit to yourself I know why this happened and so do you!

by tpagy 2008-11-05 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Tell me then, why did it happen?

by BPK80 2008-11-05 03:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

That's exactly how I feel today. I shant be making the same mistake again ever. I think it's time for gays and lesbians to leave the party and go about our own business. We sure aren't getting much out of this arraignment and I am frankly being tired of being used a wallet.

by JasonMoreland 2008-11-05 03:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Given that today is the first day you actualy post
here, not sure which mistake you refer to....

You think McCain would be a better choice to vote for? Would that change the CA results?

by lolo08 2008-11-05 04:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Actually, I can recall an effort to prevent gay men from voting. It was in Chicago in the early 70's, Daley Machine registrars were refusing to register unmarried men from certain neighborhoods. Almost went to court.

Having worked on outreaches to the Black community on AIDS issues and services, I am not so sure that: 'Black Americans do not have a fundamental HATRED of GLBT's' is a true statement. My AIDS activism ran into a lot of Black people with blind prejudice. And white people with acceptance of gay people. BTW, this was in rural Arkansas. My late partner was told by a Black AIDS worker to leave a board meeting as the presence of gay people was inherently offensive to Black people.

I have personally witnessed Black people blocking gay AIDS health workers from the home of a Black PWA on the grounds that they didn't want no faggots near their relative. I have personally witnessed Black PWA's refuse to receive any health or social services from established HIV agencies because of teh gay. I have personally witnessed Black activists demand AIDS monies go directly to Black organizations even when there was no demonstrated expertise at such agencies. And I have heard these stories from other AIDS activists all over the place.

And I was an AIDS activist in rural Arkansas in the early and mid 90's. Your description of motives and outlook strikes me as utterly unrealistic. I personally think we need to make this a major issue.  

by DaleA 2008-11-05 03:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Thank you for sharing.

A few bad anecdotal experiences does not make an evil race.  I'm sorry, but it doesn't.

Call me a Clintonista-turned-Obamaniac but I see a lot of hope for strong relations between the gay and AA communities.  Aside from some church figures, AA politicians have been extremely gay friendly (even Barney Frank has said so).  If prominent black leaders would engage their communities and speak out against homophobia, we will see a change take place.  Appeal to the good.  Waging a gay v. black war is um... definitely not going to advance civil rights for anybody.  

by BPK80 2008-11-05 04:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

As a Clintonisto who held his nose to vote for Obama, I don't have a problem with Blacks on most issues. But I do have a problem with them on gay issues. Almost all Black elected officials are good on gay issues when it comes time to vote. Many of them are excellent, like Harald Washington.

Black leaders have been speaking out to their communities on these issues for years. I have been out for about 35 years and have seen the effort. Correta Scott King spoke for us over 30 years ago and continued to the end. Jessie Jackson also has addressed the issue many times. Black leaders have been doing what you advocate, and doing it well, for decades. It has not worked. Their audience will not buy this. If Maxine Waters can't get her voters to support us, nobody can.

The only thing I have ever seen do even a little is for gay contributions to liberal groups to stop. Particularly any money that goes anywhere near a Black church. That usually results in a slight improvement for a while.

What you reccomend has been going on for years. To little or no avail.

by DaleA 2008-11-05 05:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Thank you for your input.  It's food for thought.

by BPK80 2008-11-07 02:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

#2. A vote against marriage equality should not be read as underscoring some deeply held hatred for gays and lesbians, even though being on the receiving end of it can feel that way at times.

So if the language read that blacks, asians, latinos, etc.  shouldn't be allowed to marry would that also not indicate hatred?

Please. This was hatred pure and simple.

by sinclair 2008-11-05 03:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

I think you're oversimplifying and not looking at the factors behind a vote like that.

It means we have work to do in the AA community.  Blacks and gays are not oil and water.  We have the basis for a very symbiotic political relationship, and frankly, these anecdotes above about a few black homophobes don't sway me.  My experience with Black Americans has been positive overall, as a young out gay while man.  Sure, there's homophobia, but I don't find it to be the maniacal irrational sludge that comes from Evangelicals and downscale whites.  

This is the kind of gap we can bridge.  It's not a bridge to nowhere, like trying to get along with the homosexuality-obsessed Westboro Baptist church.

I'm saying we need to appeal to the good in people, and Black people have a lot of good in them.  Evangelicals?  Eh, not so much.  

by BPK80 2008-11-05 04:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Black people have a lot of good in them.  Evangelicals?  Eh, not so much.

And what about the Black evangelicals, which is how I'd categorize the majority of that section of the black population that voted against us? They have good in them that white evangelicals don't have?

I just don't buy the whole "black religious people voted against us out of deeply felt religious belief, unlike white religious people who voted against us out of hate" meme.

The fact is that there are still a lot of people of all colors who feel free to vote against us on these issues due to their own personal prejudices, misguided religious feelings, and so on. In California, this time, a majority of them happened to be black.

It's not about race: I agree with the point that the results in CA don't mean we should generally be at odds with the black community as a whole. Neither does it mean that we must treat that part of the black community that rejects us any differently than we treat that part of the white community that rejects us.

by fsm 2008-11-05 04:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

One of the tensions between Blacks and Gays, in eastern cities, has been the role gays play in gentrification of neighborhoods. Gays are frequently viewed as the force driving Blacks from their traditional neighborhoods as we move in, fix up old buildings, raise property values and displace Blacks. This is one source of the friction between the two groups.

I feel you need to know about the history of the two groups. What you call 'anecdotes' can be found throughout the history of the AIDS epidemic, all over the country. The two groups have a long record of friction and discord, smoothed over somewhat by the needs of our coalition.

Gay Black men my age and older always told me that there was a choice that they had had to make. To be Black or Gay; they could not be both. So, the Gay ones moved out of Black neighborhoods. And started living a Gay life. Many never saw their friends and family again. One friend of mine hopped a freight train to Chicago from Detroit in the 1930's. He was young and uneducated; 20 years later he was a High School principal.  

by DaleA 2008-11-05 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Black or Gay?

Anti-gay blacks, at least in California, appear to represent a very large percentage of total California blacks.

African Americans make up about 7% of California's population but were 10% of California's electorate on Tuesday. According to CNN 70% of those African Americans voted to ban gay marriage in California, a far larger percentage than any other ethnic group.

This should not surprise anyone, Obama himself has pointed out this progressive failure within the black community. It does us no good to deny the problem.

by souvarine 2008-11-06 04:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Not denying the problem

The Obama campaign has consistently disrespected lesbian and gay people going back to McClurkin over a year ago. I have yet to see a positive outreach to us that deals with this. AFAICT there is still no well known out person in Obama's inner circle.

What I would stress is that blacks and gays are in a coalition. One requirement of a coalition is mutual respect and support. Once again, I see the black community failing to hold up their end of the agreement. Some posters at gay blogs have suggested that gays need to get behind Ward Connerly's anti affirmative action in a really big way.

by DaleA 2008-11-06 05:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Dan Savage has doesn't share your perspective, diarist:

http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/11/blac k_homophobia

by ChitownDenny 2008-11-05 04:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Dan Savage is wrong.

And you're bitter.  Over what I can't begin to guess.

by Jess81 2008-11-05 11:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Bitter about what?  And stop trolling my comments!

by ChitownDenny 2008-11-06 11:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Thanks for the cite and the link, but at the risk of sounding immodest, it's pretty obvious to me that whatever celebrity status he may have, my pro-integration diary is more thoughtful, more "big picture," better written, and more meaningful than his half-a-page-long rant.  

by BPK80 2008-11-06 12:02AM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans

The reason you give is why I was a Clintonisto till the bitter end and only reluctantly voted for Obama. Hillary would have been much better for gay people. To elect Obama, I have to accept that I have less rights than a chicken.

It is not just religion that drives this. Black Gays I have known point out something interesting. As a group, Gay men and Lesbians tend to be better educated than the average. This is particularly true for Black Gays. So, in response, Black culture has a very strong interest in keeping Gay opportunities down for Black Gays, to keep them in the community contributing to Black life. Which is why there is a down low, a secret gay life for married Black men. It is in the interests of many Blacks to make life as miserable as possible for Gay people to keep Black Gays in the closet.

There's a lot more than religion involved here.

by DaleA 2008-11-05 06:13PM | 0 recs
Black homophobia
I'm a straight black female who is an ally to the GBLT community and I am sorry that this has happened to you as an individual and to my GBLT sisters and brothers.I am committed to working for full equality.
I dont see the logical leaps you make from HRC would be good for you as a gay person to BHO cares less for your rights than for the rights of a chicken to Prop 8 would have been stopped ...if Obama hadn't been the Democratic candidate(?)
Unless you are suggesting that having HRC as the Democratic candidate would have suppressed the black vote. And therefore the vote on Prop 8 would have gone differently.
 To your second point black homophobia is as multidetermined as white,Asian or Latino homophobia. And just ask Larry Craig and Bob Allen there are plenty o' white guys on the 'Down Low'. The way you have framed your argument you make it seems as though black life is monolithic,gay life is monolithic. Black lesbians and gay men contribute to the black community as well as the GBLT community...
by Ida B 2008-11-05 08:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Black homophobia

Thank you, Ida.  

by BPK80 2008-11-05 10:40PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans
Where are you getting this from? I'm a Black, straight male and I would have voted for Prop 8, not because I wwant to make life miserable for Gays, but because it's inconsistent with my Christian beliefs.Period.
Now, I'm not so naieve to believe that me supporting my beliefs don't infringe on how you want to live your life, when I  vote. That's messed up, and I think it put every person who voted against  Prop 8 in a very tough spot. But you can't be naive enough to beleive that every person that voted for Prop 8, hates gays and want to keep you down. That's narrow-minded and does a disservice to most striaght people who struggle to come to terms with the conflicts that  homosexuality presents.
As far as the Black community vs. homosexuality issue, the rabbit  hole goes deeper. Homosexuality affects each racial community different, and I'll explain why. In the Black community there is a serious lack of Black role models. Many fathers leave early and many Black children grow up not knowing firsthand what a Black man looks like, acts like and how a Black man is supposed to treat Black women.
Openly gay Black men are largely flamboyant/queens. Thier behavior is frowned upon because they are not seen as filling the void in the community as role models. Ironically, it is usually these same openly gay black men, who rush to become teachers and volunteer in  mentoring programs but are often rejected by the communities that they try to serve.
Add the AIDS phenomenom, the emergence of the 'Down-Low' Black men in the closet, the  undisputable fact that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible,  and the dirty cloud of pedophilia that is loosely associated with homosexuality, and you see where the Black community gets it's views from. It's interesting to note that Black Lesbians usually fare much better, for various reasons.  Whites have less problems with gays because there are no shortage of strong , white, male role models to choose from
In closing, this is a multi-sided issue. Democrats can spend time fighing about gay marriage, or we can quickly push for civil unions and move on.
For gays not to try to understand how their  exsistence impacts society, is short-sighted and doesn't move our Party/Country forward.
by xodus1914 2008-11-07 08:56AM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans

Nice try! its not my fault Maybe you should look in a mirrior for the lack of men in your race look at yourself not at gay people its your fault stop trying to use us gay people as scape goats be responsible for once in your peoples life!

by tpagy 2008-11-08 11:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

I think what many people seem to be missing is what the real reason was for this passing. Yes, it may be easy to say "Oh, well since Obama was on the ticket...and African Americans wanted to come out and vote for Obama, then the reason why this didn't pass was because of their increased turnout based on exit polling."

That doesn't fly, mainly because of the #'s. There aren't enough African Americans to really hold sway over the vote. Yes the exit polling may show 70-30, but take this for an example. Say you have a group of people you poll, but there's only 10 people in that group. They voted 7-3, yes 70% voted that way...but was those 7 votes the difference maker? No. Same thing happened here. There just weren't enough votes for them to make the difference.

Where this campaign turned was when the deceitful ads came out saying that if it passes, schools will have to teach your kid to become gay or whatever spiel they were trying to throw. That's when the polls started changing and unfortunately, the No on 8 side was just way too underfunded to counteract it.

by werd2406 2008-11-05 08:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

What if the 10% of the electorate that was black voted 70-30 No on 8, like the white Democrats did instead of Yes on 8?

That takes away 400,000 Yes votes, and adds 400,000 No votes.  The end result is that No on 8 prevails if black Democrats voted the way white Democrats did.

If I was gay and in CA, I'd be pissed.  As a black man, I'm ashamed at my communities views towards gay people.  Homophobia is as strong in the black community as you'll find.  There are exceptions.  But 70-30 speaks volumes.

A gay person has every right to feel betrayed by the black community.  I would.

by reggie44pride 2008-11-05 09:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

the bottom line is that it was the liberal, democratic black vote that teamed up with the republicans to make this pass.

obama now has a chance to become a real agent of hope, change and equality.  he can ask/teach his community to not persecute or deny rights to others.  he can pass laws that make all people equal.

or he can do nothing.

we are about to find out if those speeches came from his soul or he was just reading awfully well.

by latina 2008-11-05 09:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

I believe he does.  At any rate I've never seen a politician mention gay rights as routinely in his stump speeches as Obama does.

But this kind of tribalistic thinking is a problem - you're going to hold it against one man of a group if that group as a whole doesn't accept gay rights overnight.  I'd rather spend my time in outreach and organizing than assigning blame.  

I'll also observe in passing that you sound like you're looking forward to blaming Barack Obama if African Americans remain more homophobic than the population at large, as they undoubtedly will for, say, the next four years.

by Jess81 2008-11-05 11:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Virtual mojo!

by Jess81 2008-11-05 11:11PM | 0 recs
Thank you!

Muchas gracias, amiga.  

by BPK80 2008-11-05 11:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Thanks for approaching this from a level-headed perspective.  We've got a lot of work to do on reaching out to other Democrats who have been brought up to dislike gays and lesbians.  The answer is education and exposure, not hate.  People's opinions change over time.  We can make this right again, and it should actually be easier to reach out to fellow Democrats than to try to convince Republicans.  Young African-Americans I know are entirely fine with same-sex marriage, it's the older ones that we need to focus on, as it is with the entire population.

Good diary

by Skaje 2008-11-06 09:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Thank you.  It seems time is on our side then.

by BPK80 2008-11-07 02:57PM | 0 recs
Another way

Reaching out to African American leaders is definitely the correct approach.

"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood,"  (Coretta Scott King)

by KateG 2008-11-08 08:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

"I cannot stress how dramatically different this is from people who oppose marriage equality for the "wrong" reasons"

I couldn't believe what i was seeing when i read this. Just because AAs are part of the Democratic voting coalition you give them the benefit of the doubt, but the evil evangelicals who vote Republican must have had evil motives.

Any one voting for Prop 8, Mormon, AA, white, hispanic.... was voting for bigotry.

Obama himself has talked about the problem of homophobia in the black community, it isn't just a white evangelical thing.

by liberalj 2008-11-08 10:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

Thank you KateG.

This quote is worth re-posting:

"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood,"  (Coretta Scott King)

We need leaders in the AA community to move their followers to see that the line between "hating gays" and denying fundamental rights is pretty fine.  

The GLBT community has every reason to be enraged.  Not because we supported Obama, but rather because the AA community supported discrimination.  Remember...the law regards CIVIL marriage, not RELIGIOUS definitions.  Besides, for how long was the BIBLE used to DEFEND SLAVERY.
Please, let's call b=s when we see it.  For all the reasonable points made by BPK80 in his/her diary, nice words don't change the facts.  Homophobia in the AA community is a clear and major problem.  The numbers don't lie!

That said, we in the LGBT community must (for practical matters) take a deep breath and recognize the need for outreach and education.  That is the only option, and why, as I said above, leadership from the AA community itself is critical.

by borlov 2008-11-08 10:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Blacks and Gays, Prop 8

I am upset about this erroneous finger pointing at African-Americans regarding Proposition 8.  Why are you so quick to believe whatever you hear?  If someone told me 70 percent of gay people voted against Obama my first thought would be, excuse me Jesus, that is crap! I don't believe it!   This political year was fraught with right wing lies. Bear that in mind.

"Religious organizations that support Proposition 8 include the Roman Catholic Church], Knights of Columbus, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) a group of Evangelical Christians led by Jim Garlow and Miles McPherson, American Family Association, Focus on the Family[and the National Organization for Marriage Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, California's largest, has also endorsed the measure. The Bishops of the California Catholic Conference released a statement supporting the proposition. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has publicly supported the proposition and encouraged their membership to support it, by asking its members to donate money and volunteer time. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter read in every congregation. Latter-day Saints have provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California. About 45% of out-of-state contributions to Protect Marriage.com has come from Utah, over three times more than any other state."

Still, even though gays were fighting to preserve a basic right, it was the anti-equality side in California that seemed to have the most fervor. A symbolic low point for the gay side came on Oct. 13, when the Sacramento Bee ran a remarkable story about Rick and Pam Patterson, a Mormon couple of modest means - he drives a 10-year-old Honda Civic, she raises their five boys - who had withdrawn $50,000 from their savings account and given it to the pro-8 campaign. "It was a decision we made very prayerfully," Pam Patterson, 48, told the Bee's Jennifer Garza. "Was it an easy decision? No. But it was a clear decision, one that had so much potential to benefit our children and their children."

This is your real enemy. Don't trust exit polls. I think they are pitting one group against the other. African-Americans are less than 7% of the state population, do the math.  Many more Whites voted and they put this over, not Blacks. What are the total numbers of each group that voted. Someone dug into the data and found that we're just now learning is that the exit poll was based on less than 2,300 people. If you take into account that blacks in California only make up about 6.2%, we get roughly 224 blacks who were polled. 224 blacks to blame an entire race! The original percentage of black voters who were expected to say yes to Prop 8 was only around 52-58%. Anytime you get a vote that much higher over the projected vote, something went wrong.  

I know someone who watches C-Span and they said most Blacks did not even address the question at all. And they do not have the money to fund a tens of millions of dollars Proposition 8 campaign. Note that they also targeted affirmative action for eradication in another state.
I cannot believe that these groups get a pass and Blacks are being targeted for the blame game. Rather than be upset at the phantom African-American menace, fight like hell. There is no right wing black conspiracy against gay Americans.  When you tried to align your struggle with that of Blacks you inherited their enemies. These same enemies are now trying to pit one against the other because they fear the combined numbers of both.

How many gay activists supported the civil rights movement in the 1960's?  Then how do you automatically expect support in return?  Have you asked Blacks to support you or did you just assume?

No one gave Obama anything and they will not give gays anything either.  Obama stands on the shoulders of a lot of brave people who gave their lives for him to stand on that podium last night.

Never trust exits polls because in all my years of life, no one has ever been seen at a polling place asking anyone anything when they left.

Don't fall for the lies.

by thelea 2008-11-09 10:28AM | 0 recs

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