Do it at the Convention, and not before...

It's about respect for ALL Democrats, stupid!

The nerve of Hillary Clinton staying in the race--albeit perhaps with a suspended candidacy--until the Convention?!?!

The Convention. It's not a variety show. It's not a holiday weekend for senior Democrats. It's not that, historically. It's not that according to the rules!

Minor omitted detail throughout much of this blog and most of the blogosphere: This is the closest Democratic Primary in generations. Bar none! Forget about Clinton for a moment. Think of it this way: Don't disrespect half the Party!

And, to all those supporters of "the other brand," to signify otherwise by attempting to throw Hillary under the bus in a few days is to deny history; to signify otherwise is to deny the VERY PURPOSE of the Convention, itself; to signify otherwise is to put forth the very "entitlement" meme Obama supporters have attempted to shove down the throats of the media and my fellow Clinton supporters for the past few months, too.

Hillary deserves to not only share in the spotlight at the Convention. She represents half of the votes of the freakin' Party, folks! You want to bring the Party together--more divided between two great candidacies than it may have ever been--at the Convention? Well, then DO IT AT THE CONVENTION! Not before.  

The Party is best-suited to have an orchestrated coming together of the candidacies in support of one candidate. Neither side's supporters are going to be placated by someone waving a wand in a couple of weeks saying: "This is the way it is."

This will do little but disaffect many!

If one were to read the Obama supporters' comments on this blog--and I'll be one of them if he's the formal nominee of the Party too--we're supposed to believe that THE CONVENTION is not where the Party formally anoints its candidate for the Presidency?

Problem with that rationale is this: The Democratic Convention IS where the Party formally anoints its candidate for the Presidency. It's where we come together as Democrats to support OUR candidate. But, we select the candidate at the Convention, first!

This is history. This IS "the rules."

Live by the rules. Die by the rules. Change the rules. Break the rules. Scream when the rules are broken by one; say "tough luck" when it's your candidate doing the rule-breaking.

Hillary can do whatever she damn well pleases. It's her right. More importantly, she owes it to her supporters. She owes it to the Party. And, it's the SMART thing to do--gradually bring the Party together and to their senses over the course of the next 90 days, all supporting one candidate! (Whomever that candidate might be.)

As for folks referencing Ted Kennedy in 1980, like your sense of propriety about Democratic conventions, you have your history a little mixed up. Kennedy worked his ass off for Carter in in the Fall of 1980. Jimmy Carter was defeated by Ayatollah Khomeini. Nothing more. Nothing less. Read it. Learn from the past. Don't distort it to suit your rhetoric now.

Respect the rules, or change them. But, don't tell me one plus one equals three. It doesn't.

Hillary can do whatever she damn well pleases. And, to that I say: "RIGHT ON!" She will be heard.

The Party is split. It needs time to heal. Folks will be focused upon the Olympics for the next 12 weeks, anyhow. And, the real race doesn't heat up again until Labor Day.

Obama supporters, get over yourselves and your feigned indignation. Feigned indignation at what? Respect for the traditions and history and RULES of our electoral process. As f**ked-up as it might be, it's the set of rules we're using this year.

Get over yourselves. Move forward...with respect. It'll work itself out. But, it's going to take a little time.

Tags: 2008 Democratic Presidential Primary, clinton, obama (all tags)

Comments

154 Comments

Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

great diary.  rec'd.

by colebiancardi 2008-05-27 01:49PM | 0 recs
This is snark, right?

you can't be serious.

by TheFullBerry 2008-05-27 03:33PM | 0 recs
sour grapes

This might not go over well, but if Axelrod is Rove, does that mean we'll get at least 8 years of a progressive president?

I'll take it.

As if your boy Mark Penn was a beacon of transparency and decency.

Please.

Screwing rules?  Hasn't that what Bush-Cheney have been all about.  Screwing the biggest set of rules of all, the Constitution of the United States of America.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-27 05:02PM | 0 recs
YES!

Screw the rules!  Seat Florida and Michigan!

/snark

by bizzizz 2008-05-27 06:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

You know as well as any of us that if we wait until August to declare Obama the nominee he will not have enough time to wage a campaign. This is not about trying to push anyone out or disrespect anyone's followers. Its all about waging a campaign over the summer.

by wasder 2008-05-27 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

oh, what is stopping him?  He is doing it now, isn't he?

by colebiancardi 2008-05-27 01:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

He is clearly waiting until next week to make any kind of declaration of victory.

by wasder 2008-05-27 01:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

that isn't what I meant.  He can attack McCain at anytime

by colebiancardi 2008-05-27 02:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

He is already taking on McCain... Something I was calling for both of them to do for quite some time.

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-27 02:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Yes, he's been taking on McCain.... ineffectively and losing virtually every match up.

by KnowVox 2008-05-27 06:16PM | 0 recs
Come on, June 4th

He could use the bump that will surely follow after we have a nominee.

Clinton would have needed it too, had she been able to win.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-27 05:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Come on, June 4th

Obama needs more than a "bump" after getting creamed in the last several primaries. He's not winning now, and he won't win in November.

Clinton is the only candidate who can beat McCain.

by KnowVox 2008-05-27 06:18PM | 0 recs
please post another musclehead discussion video

Really, Universal, instead of coming up with something pretentious like KnowVox couldn't you have just done what others here have done and been like Universal1 or something?

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-27 06:25PM | 0 recs
Re: please post another musclehead

Are they the same person?  I thought I smelled a resemblance.

Come on Paul, I want to hear some ALL OUT WAR rhetoric!

by Koan 2008-05-27 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: please post another musclehead discussion

On second thought, nah, KnowVox for all his hackery seems to actually support Hillary Clinton.  Universal supports only his dreams of being a warlord.

by Koan 2008-05-27 07:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

The rabid Hillary supporters are stopping him, that's who.  They are seeking to demean and disavow his status as the presumptive nominee, to the detriment of the Dem party in general.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-27 01:59PM | 0 recs
As a Hillary supporter....

...I have no problem with:

1.) Hillary suspending her campaign until the Convention.

2.) Barack Obama being referred to as the "presumptive nominee" or "the likely nominee of the Party" throughout the Summer!

That's to be expected. That's the way it's been in year's past...when the Primary's were much less contested than they are this year.

What I've got a problem with is this foolishly-driven effort to do to Hillary--who's in the closest Primary race our Party's seen perhaps ever--to be pushed off the stage prematurely!

She represents HALF the votes of the Democratic Party. Maybe in your eyes it's the wrong half, but it's still half the freakin' votes of the Democratic Party!

by bobswern 2008-05-27 02:05PM | 0 recs
Re: As a Hillary supporter....

My problem is with the floating definition of "early". I have no doubt that even after the primaries are over next week there will be a significant group of Clinton supporters saying we shouldn't be pushing her out because the delegates can change their mind before the convention.

The fact of the matter is that Obama has been the presumptive nominee since NC/IN and yet the goalposts keep moving.

by Thadd Selden 2008-05-27 03:22PM | 0 recs
Re: As a Hillary supporter....

The fact of the matter is that Obama has been losing primary after primary by gigantic margins as Democrats have resoundly rejected him as the "presumptive nominee."

by KnowVox 2008-05-27 06:21PM | 0 recs
Thank you!

My sentiments exactly.

I'll get behind Obama once he has the magic number, but he doesn't.  The superdelegates could come out right now and end this if they wanted to, but they haven't.

Trying to get Hillary to quit because Obama hasn't won yet is unfair and disrespectful to Senator Clinton and her apartment.

by psychodrew 2008-05-27 07:11PM | 0 recs
Apartment? Huh?

Yeah, my friend was yapping in my ear about his stupid apartment while I was typing.

by psychodrew 2008-05-27 07:12PM | 0 recs
Thank you!

My sentiments exactly.

I'll get behind Obama once he has the magic number, but he doesn't.  The superdelegates could come out right now and end this if they wanted to, but they haven't.

Trying to get Hillary to quit because Obama hasn't won yet is unfair and disrespectful to Senator Clinton and her supporters.

by psychodrew 2008-05-27 07:11PM | 0 recs
It's not premature

It's way past time, but all are resigned to waiting till after Tuesday.

After that, she'd really be just in the way.  

by Garret 2008-05-27 08:32PM | 0 recs
"In the way?" LOL!

Yeah, Hillary and her 17-18 million voters...I'd say that's a wee bit more than "just in the way."

1/2 the Democratic Party in the way of whom? The other 1/2 of the Democratic Party?

Apparently.

by bobswern 2008-05-27 10:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Well excuse the democratic process, then.  Lets tell all those people who voted for her and have yet to vote that their votes were never really taken seriously.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

By June 4th, who will have not voted?

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-27 02:15PM | 0 recs
The SDs.

by JimR 2008-05-27 04:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...
Every four years their are states who votes end up not mattering. These are the states that didn't even matter in 1992:
April 28: Pennsylvania
May 5: DC, Indiana, North Carolina
May 12: Nebraska, West Virginia
May 19: Oregon, Washington [primary]
May 26: Arkansas, Idaho [primary], Kentucky
June 2: Alabama, California, Montana, New Jersey, New Mexico, Ohio
June 9: North Dakota
by venician 2008-05-27 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

If you have been paying attention they matter this year.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Thanks, Scotch, for providing a dose of reality to yet another O supporter.

by KnowVox 2008-05-27 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Bill Clinton didn't lock up the nomination until June in 1992 -- so, how do you figure that anything before June didn't matter?

by cuppajoe 2008-05-27 04:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

According to Bill Clinton in his autobiography, he was "effectively the nominee" on April 7th, 1992.

But what would he know about it?

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-27 04:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

HAHAHA! D'OH!

by astronautagogo 2008-05-27 05:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Effectively doesn't mean he was the nominee -- he didn't wrap it up until the CA primary in June.

Learn English.

by cuppajoe 2008-05-28 12:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

They WERE taken seriously.  They just didn't add up to enough to win the contest.

This happens EVERY TIME, yet you fellows are acting as if this is some sort of historical event.  It isn't.  There are winners and losers of every cycle, and the amount of attention paid to the supporters of the losing team is frankly not the most important thing for us to be thinking about at this time...

by Lawyerish 2008-05-27 02:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

A race this close does not happen everytime.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

There was a diary a few days ago that claimed, with regard to Hillary, "She's won the second half."

Overlooking the unusual definition of "half" for a moment, it seemed to me at the time - and still does - that the use of the past tense, "she's won," rather unfairly excluded the voters in the three jurisdictions who have yet to vote. (Especially, in this case, because once their votes are counted, it's likely that out of the 16 contests the diarist included in the "second half," Obama will have won at least 8 and possibly 9.)

The diarist, who has been one of the staunch supporters of the "count every vote" meme, has declined to answer questions about her use of the past tense, "she's won."

I seem to recall that you may have rec'd that diary (and I apologize in advance if my memory's faulty on that count) - can you offer an explanation for the apparent double standard there?

by ipsos 2008-05-27 03:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

That "she's won the second half" stuff makes me chuckle.  Even if we accept the validity of that analogy, winning the second half doesn't mean you win the game.

by sidwood 2008-05-27 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Bullshit. Utter bullshit.  Nobody's stopping him.  He's already acting like the nominee.  That's arrogant, imo, but arrogance appears to come easily to him and nobody calls him on it.

by Tolstoy 2008-05-27 03:25PM | 0 recs
Barack is the nominee.

it's over.
just like it was over for Jerry brown by march of 1992, even though he was still in the race until June, it was Bill Clinton who said he had it locked up in his autobiography.
as did the everyone else back in the day.

it's over people. barack followed all the rules.
the nomination is decided by delegates.
thems is the rules.
he won more.
she can't catch up. it's over.  

by TheFullBerry 2008-05-27 03:36PM | 0 recs
[sigh]

Look, staying in the race is within the rules, yes --- but that doesn't mean it's the RIGHT choice.  It's also "within the rules" for her to step down.

Shouting "she's within her rights and within the rules!" doesn't make her decision any less poor for the Democratic Party.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-27 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: [sigh]

it is the RIGHT choice for 17 million votes

by colebiancardi 2008-05-27 01:58PM | 0 recs
No, it's not

Don't pretend that all 17 million Clinton voters from the primary support the idea of fighting this to the convention.

While many of those voters still may strongly prefer Clinton, no doubt there is a sizeable portion (a majority? more?) that want the nomination process to end after the last primary race.  After all, the most important thing here is beating McCain in November, and we will only be hurting those chances by pushing this all the way to the Convention.

The RIGHT choice is a Democratic Party that can campaign as an undivided party the entire summer and avoid a floor flight at the Convention.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-27 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: No, it's not

well, they haven't done a poll yet on the convention, but over 60% of Democrats think Hillary should stay in.

by colebiancardi 2008-05-27 02:08PM | 0 recs
Look at that poll

"Stay in" until the races are complete.

That time frame ends soon.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-27 02:20PM | 0 recs
Didn't you get the memo?

Clinton supporters don't matter.  We're just a bunch of sheep who will vote for the nominee no matter what.  You need to subtract the Clinton supporters from the 60%.

by psychodrew 2008-05-27 07:23PM | 0 recs
Re: [sigh]

17,000,000 DO NOT want her destroying the chance of Democrats to take back the White House.

by rf7777 2008-05-27 04:23PM | 0 recs
Re: [sigh]

Duh! That's why over 17 million fellow Dem's have voted for Hillary to be President. She's the best chance we have of taking back the White House.

by KnowVox 2008-05-27 06:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Get over ourselves...?  Due respect but while we are fighting amongst ourselves, we are giving John freakin' McCain a free freakin' ride...!

Here's a tradition for you... by now, traditionally, the nominee is pretty much decided and we, as Democrats have decided to focus on the numb-nuts Republican...

It's time we did that this year as well....

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-27 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

John McCain is not getting a free ride anywhere.  He is not rising in the polls.  He is not gathering huge amounts of money.  He is not in great public demand.  However, we might be giving Bob Freaking Barr a free ride and I am all for that.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

The only people speaking out against John McCain right now are Obama and the DNC.  

I live in Ohio currently and just watched a campaign ad for him...!  It promised everything but someone to come in and clean my house....

He's getting a free ride.  It's past time that stopped.  Nationwide.

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-27 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

If he is running ads now, then he must be incredibly desperate.  He doesn't have and will not have enough money to keep that up until November.  Funny I live in PA on the border of Ohio and haven't seen a single ad from him. Besides the fact that OH and PA have proven to be beyond pandering and ads apparently don't sway them.  Ads this early are not going to cut it this year.  McCain is wasting his money.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Well, McCain may be wasting his money, but his ads are on....  I am in Columbus and have lost count of how many I have seen... He is already campaigning for the general.

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-27 02:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

I see McCain ads several times a week here in Akron.  And they're official McCain ads, not 527's.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-27 02:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Sounds like an Obama ad to me.  Kiss my robe and the maids of hope will not only clean your house but save your soul.

by Tolstoy 2008-05-27 03:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

I'm not familiar with the maid service promise or the soul saving.  I could use both, at least according to my mother.  Please tell me more.  If I could get the government to clean my house, that would be pretty cool.  As far as the soul saving, sounds more like a GOP promise.  Not sure I'd be too keen on that one.  I hear all the really fun people are going to be in hell anyway.

by Rick in Eugene 2008-05-27 05:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Not a believer in heaven and hell but have always thought that if such places existed I'd only be comfortable in the latter where all the interesting people would be gathered.  

The maid thing was a play on the previous post and the soul bit - mending America's broken soul - is an Obama campaign theme, usually enunciated by the wife.

Make your mother happy.  Clean the house.  

by Tolstoy 2008-05-27 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

"Get over yourselves. Move forward...with respect. It'll work itself out. But, it's going to take a little time.
"

What needs to get worked out.

When the contests are over, and SD's are pouring in, what needs to work itself out?

Its done, stop embaressing yourself, you also make it harder for her to end it.

If Hillary ended it tonite, would you respect her decision.
For some reason I think people like don't respect her decision, you assume her campaign speaks for her the person.

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-27 01:51PM | 0 recs
We're NOT the boss of her! n/t

by bobswern 2008-05-27 01:52PM | 0 recs
You are fighting an empty battle

You are not making a point of any value.  No one is saying "I am the boss of her."  You are fighting nothingness.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-27 01:54PM | 0 recs
Re: We're NOT the boss of her! n/t

She's a public servant as are all Senators and Congresspeople, so, yeah, actually we are the bosses of her... and the other 534....

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-27 01:55PM | 0 recs
Re: We're NOT the boss of her! n/t

No, we are not.  However, if Senator Obama clears even the incorrect number of delegates she says are necessary, when he clears it, if she wants to technically stay in the race, that's fine.  If she wants to spend nearly three months hoping he gets eaten by a bear, fine.

But when he has enough pledges, she needs to calm the fuck down and stop attacking our presumptive nominee.  She's cooled it a fair bit in the last few weeks.  Once he hits that number, she'll need to build on that.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-27 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: We're NOT the boss of her! n/t

Do not tell a woman to "calm the fuck down".  Do not say that to any woman and certainly not Hillary Clinton.  The only people who try that trash are ignorant beer-bellyed, undershirt wearing, wet-cat-ugly wife beaters.  I suggest if you don't fit that description you might want to tone down your rhetoric.  

by Tolstoy 2008-05-27 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: We're NOT the boss of her! n/t

Relax.  That language shouldn't be used with anyone.  It isn't a gender issue so stop pretending that it is.

by WadawutG 2008-05-27 04:24PM | 0 recs
Re: We're NOT the boss of her! n/t

ah, yes, using that language against a fellow human being who happens to be female is sexist?

I've used it on men as well.  Was I being sexist then?

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-27 05:11PM | 0 recs
She can suspend her campaign

on June 4th. I'm fine with that. Moving on.

by lizardbox 2008-05-27 01:56PM | 0 recs
Yes, respect the RULES

The RULES are that Florida and Michigan do not count and will not be seated.

"As f**ked-up as it might be, it's the set of rules we're using this year."

I could not have said it better myself.

by rf7777 2008-05-27 01:57PM | 0 recs
Just another week.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-27 01:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Just another week.

Amen, I just wonder if these types will put down there guns when it's over.

My favorite OVAH video (for smiles and giggles)

not a spike lee fan, but I can learn   :)

BTW> That is RJ Eskow and Cenk of Huffingtonpost

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-27 02:00PM | 0 recs
Until 1/2 the Party's disrespected? n/t

by bobswern 2008-05-27 02:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Until 1/2 the Party's disrespected? n/t

Until the party starts on the road to unifying behind our nominee.

by map 2008-05-27 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Until 1/2 the Party's disrespected? n/t

Disrespected?

What are 2 years old?

Did they not know that
A) there is only one winner as with most contests in life

B) Just because they like their candidate does not guarantee their nomination.

STOP insulting people who voted for Hillary, stop stereotyping them.

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-27 02:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Until 1/2 the Party's disrespected? n/t

Winning is not disrespecting.

Only one can win. That's always been the case.

When Obama secures the nomination next week, it won't be a slight against Clinton, anymore than it'll be a slight against Edwards, Dodd, Biden, Kucinich, or Richardson. They all had fervent supporters. They all lost.

by really not a troll 2008-05-27 02:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Until 1/2 the Party's disrespected? n/t

Well said,  a little logic never hurt anyone :)

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-27 03:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Last time I saw a count, OVER half of the party voted for her.  She has the majority of those registered as actual democrats.  The convention being the ultimate party gathering, is not going to be short on registered democrats as attendees.  The Obama people don't take this seriously, and well they should now, or else learn it at the worst possible of times in the fall.  We are not just playing games when we demand the respect we are due.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 01:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Respect is EARNED, and you Clinton supporters have done NOTHING to earn it.  Seriously.  

by Lawyerish 2008-05-27 02:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Go ahead, find it out in the fall, then.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Sure thing.  The vast majority of you will come around, and the rest will be defeated.

What, you think we're afraid of your threats?  Why would we be?

by Lawyerish 2008-05-27 02:35PM | 0 recs
Wow.

Now, there's the pot talking to the kettle.

Nearly very comment you've made in this diary has been disdainful.  That kind of attitude is definitely gonna heal the divide. Kudos to you.

by aggieric 2008-05-27 05:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

"The Obama people do not take this seriously"....

Ummm... he has run a very good campaign.  I have seen no evidence that they are not taking the convention seriously.  If you do, please provide it.

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-27 02:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

You might want to ponder the points made in the diary, specifically the demands that she drop out.  The convention is where the votes are cast, until then they are tallies in someones head.  The convention as the deciding factor in this race is not being taken seriously by the Obama people.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

And the calls for her to drop o are not coming from Obama... or his actual campaign.

David Axelrod is not the idiot that some on here would like him to be.  He is a very smart man and he understands what is going on.  He is taking EVERYTHING seriously.

That there is pressure on her to suspend her campaign has more to do with her actual chances of winning, which are slim, and the desire to focus on the next step for the Democrats, than anything else...

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-27 02:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

The calls are coming from high level Surrogates of Obama's campaign.  We are not so naive here to not know who is assigned the duties that would make Obama look bad.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

High level supporters of whose campaign?

The [Hillary Clinton] supporter, New York Governor David Paterson, said flatly on a local radio show that Hillary was starting to show "a little desperation."

"I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support and I'll support until whatever time she makes a different determination," Paterson told a New York radio station, clearly weighing his words very carefully.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsm emo.com/2008/05/top_hillary_supporter_sa ys_she.php

by mattw 2008-05-27 05:26PM | 0 recs
I'm so sick of debunking

Clinton's bogus metrics.

The contest will be decided by delegates.

This is how nominees are determined. Obama is winning this category and will have the majority of delegates secured shortly.

by Carl Nyberg 2008-05-27 02:03PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm so sick of debunking

There is nothing to debate.

You just got a site of dead enders here.

The race has been over for weeks and you got some of the HRC diehards, the newly minted McBloggers  and then people like me who are bored so we like to mess with said dead enders and McBloggers.

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-27 02:07PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm so sick of debunking

Stop calling Clinton supporters deadenders.  Stop with the namecalling.  Coming here to "mess" with people is something that will get you in trouble.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:23PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm so sick of debunking

While I agree that people should not be 'messing' with Clinton supporters... I hope you are not implying that your vote in November will be influenced by how some anonymous poster on a blog behaves.  I think the issues we are dealing with this election cycle are a bit more important than that.

Peace

by protothad 2008-05-27 04:01PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm so sick of debunking

then people like me who are bored so we like to mess with said dead enders and McBloggers.

you might want to rethink that:

Post as many comments as you like, but users that post comments that do nothing but name-call, denigrate the site users, or make inflammatory remarks will either be warned, or outright banned.

by colebiancardi 2008-05-27 02:28PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm so sick of debunking

Goddamn lighten up.

Whats wrong with messing with McBloggers.

Now messing with deadenders, bring it.

If someone wants to sit there and attack my party, its officials, it's member, it's organizers, it's shills and propagandists, and most importantly the citizens it serves then go ahead and report.

Last I heard doing the opposite of that is way kosher on this site.

PS. Would it make you happier if I used the word "troll" over deadender,  they are the same?

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-27 02:34PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm so sick of debunking

last time I checked, democrats were never shy about criticizing the democratic politicians.

So, why are you now?  Oh, it is Obama - of course.

by colebiancardi 2008-05-27 02:37PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm so sick of debunking

Wow, GOP101 debate tactics.

My operative word was ATTACK.

dont be such a tool, I know you can read.

Anyone who is a McBlogger, I give a full pass to, but Democrats, common we got to be able to read at least a 5th grade level (what our newspapers are written at, according to my 5th grade teacher :D   )

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-27 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

You might get your respect if you stop with the silly threats.

The Obama people don't take this seriously, and well they should now, or else learn it at the worst possible of times in the fall.

Frankly, I question just how strong a Democrat a person actually is when they make such threats.

And respect is a two way street, you know. Maybe look to your fellow Clinton supporters before demanding respect from Obama supporters.

by Artemis Jax 2008-05-27 02:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

It is not a threat, it's a fact.  I am not speaking for myself because I will not vote for a republican, but if you have any awareness at all you can see what the situation is.  It has been a constant news story that Democratic voters are deserting the party.  I believe that there was a front page post just today about that.  As for voting for Obama myself, he will have to convince me and my half of the party that he should get our votes.  Don't assume this year it will be automatic.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

If you want to vote for McCain or sit out, do so. Obama's not going to beg for your votes. If you truly feel McCain would be a better president than Obama, then do what you have to do.

by Firewall 2008-05-27 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Independents are the fastest growing affiliated political group in the U.S. and have been for quite a while...

The defections from the Democratic party have little to do with this primary.

by JenKinFLA 2008-05-27 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

And you know it has nothing to do with this campaign, how?  

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

You were the one who implied people were deserting the party due to this overlong primary. The burden of proof is on you, not Jen.

by Firewall 2008-05-27 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

In fact she is contradicting my statement so she needs to show how she knows this.  I want to know.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:48PM | 0 recs
People are leaving the Democratic party?

I thought the polls showed the opposite; the Dems are gaining voters and the Pubs are losing them.  The independents might be growing but probably at the expence of the republicans.

I know passions are running high right now and people are saying they will never vote for that 'other' Dem candidate... but primaries are often like that, and most change their mind by November.  Past polls show this over and over.  Yeah, some will take their bruised feelings and sit home or protest vote... but most will not.

Really, I think the Republicans are just trying to spin this whole 'Democrats Divided' story bigger than it is hoping it will actually become a reality.  That includes sending a freeper fifth column into the liberal blogosphere (heck, McCain has now even formalized the effort and is handing out trolling 'points).

Calm down everyone.  Take a deep breath.  The MI and FL delegations will be seated.  This game of political chicken will end, and the nomination will complete in June.  The party will unify.  We will win in November.

Peace

by protothad 2008-05-27 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Gravel will prevail!  NO PHEAR!!!

by guazatragicness 2008-05-27 01:58PM | 0 recs
Not in her role as a candidate! n/t

by bobswern 2008-05-27 01:59PM | 0 recs
will HRC supporters stop posting

digs at Obama and outright attacks?

Or is this one more attempt to insist what Clinton wants is reasonable and the Obama supporters just have to live with Hillary "my way or the highway" Clinton?

by Carl Nyberg 2008-05-27 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Well, just realize that most of us disagree with you because we believe that it would be a huge tactical error, not out of any bad will towards Clinton.

by rfahey22 2008-05-27 02:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Here's my take on June 4th or there abouts Barack Obama will be the presumptive nominee. Just as today John McCain is only the presumptive nominee. Neither Obama or McCain will be the official nominee until the convention.

This does not mean he shouldn't start campaigning for the GE.

Should Hillary share the spot light of course. Her performance has earned her that right. In fact I think she should give the Keynote.

by jsfox 2008-05-27 02:04PM | 0 recs
HRC has a right to stay in the campaign

And the New York Democratic Party and the people of New York have a right to replace her as U.S. Senator when she stands for election.

by Carl Nyberg 2008-05-27 02:05PM | 0 recs
Re: HRC has a right to stay in the campaign

Heh.  Yeah, that's going to happen.

by Scotch 2008-05-27 02:12PM | 0 recs
Me too
I overhear lots of angry conversations about her on the subway. It's not like she has a lot of loyalty build up since she breezed in in 2008.
by JJE 2008-05-27 02:47PM | 0 recs
All will be forgiven...

... when she throws her support behind Obama and helps him beat McCain.  She isn't stupid.  She is still working that last sliver of hope toward the nomination or perhaps the VP slot.  When Obama is finally over the top in delegates and the remaining supers swing hard his way, she will do the right thing.

Once Obama has the clear majority of all delegates, she will throw in the towel.  If she fought it to the convention under those circumstances, she would make herself a pariah within the Democratic party.      It won't happen.

I'm prepared to be wrong on this, and if by some weird fluke she lands the nom I'll vote for her, but my crytal ball says otherwise.

Peace

by protothad 2008-05-27 04:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

When Bill Clinton won the nomination calls for unity happened in March when he had only 991 pledged delegates:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht ml?res=9E0CE0DE1F3FF933A15750C0A96495826 0

by Piuma 2008-05-27 02:06PM | 0 recs
Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Sorry, but after FL and MI are settled and all primaries are completed, the SD's will move to push the leader over the required number and we'll have our presumptive nominee.  

This isn't going to be a cliffhanger at the convention, it's going to be known in June.

At that point, they will stop campaigning against the loser and will pivot to the GE campaign against the even bigger loser, McCain.

by map 2008-05-27 02:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

The more Obama supporters bully, use names like deadenders, make fun of Hillary supporters, the more the heels dig in.

you do realize that?  

by colebiancardi 2008-05-27 02:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

People who "dig in" past June 3rd are dead-enders. Unless your allegiance to the party begins and ends with Hillary Clinton, you'll need to start thinking like a Democrat again and get behind the nominee chosen by the Democratic party.

by Firewall 2008-05-27 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

unless she concedes, nope, not a deadender.

I AM a Democrat and quite frankly, based on exit polls, it the primaries were only for registered democrats, you know, the Democratic Party, Clinton would be the nominee.

so, no, Obama was not, imho, chosen by the Democratic Party.  

by colebiancardi 2008-05-27 02:33PM | 0 recs
At least you're openly admitting

your refusal to recognize the nominee of the Democratic party.

That's your choice. At least you're being honest about where your allegiances lie.

by Firewall 2008-05-27 02:34PM | 0 recs
Re: At least you're openly admitting

my allegiances lie with my moral obligation to elect someone who is qualified to be president and not a cult of personality.

I will not be voting for John McCain.  

by colebiancardi 2008-05-27 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: At least you're openly admitting

In other words, you will not vote for the nominee of the Democratic party.

Got it.

by Firewall 2008-05-27 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: At least you're openly admitting

so, you admit to the cult of personality?  Ok, got it.

by colebiancardi 2008-05-27 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: At least you're openly admitting

Call him what you want, but he's the nominee of your party.

by Firewall 2008-05-27 02:43PM | 0 recs
there's no such "cult"

grow up

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-27 02:44PM | 0 recs
Re: At least you're openly admitting

Boy, THAT was a profound and mature response.

by rf7777 2008-05-27 04:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Excellent point.  And I have a suspicion many of these young bloggers have no interest in the Party.  Their interest and loyalty are to Brand Obama.  If and when that brand is no longer "in", they'll probably move on to the next new thing.

by Tolstoy 2008-05-27 03:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

You keep on speculating... a broken clock is right twice a day.

by herenow 2008-05-27 04:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

You are an arrogant and condescending individual who has no understanding of this, only a caricature that you yourself have drawn in order to amuse yourself.

Enjoy, sirrah!

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-27 05:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Young?  You think I'm young?  Would you card me for beer?  That would be very nice.  I would just be flattered.  I haven't been asked for ID in SUCH a long time.  You're the bestest!!

by Rick in Eugene 2008-05-27 05:13PM | 0 recs
Good diary. Rec'd.

It has always been decided at conventions, even in 1996.

by catfish2 2008-05-27 02:29PM | 0 recs
bobswern, you have a point.

Suspending her campaign on June 4 is an okay idea.  If she doesn't want to campaign for Obama over the summer then at least she won't be campaigning against him.

Obama will have a couple of extra months where he isn't fighting a war on two fronts.

by GFORD 2008-05-27 02:38PM | 0 recs
Sound like a plan to me! n/t

by bobswern 2008-05-27 03:02PM | 0 recs
Tips!!

and onto the convention!!!

I hope she does not concede.  I hope she will run a GE against mccain also over the next 6 weeks making her poll numbers against BOTH mccain and obama go even higher.

You are 100% right.  She owes it to ME to go the convention. Since I'm not supporting BO anyway - she has to do this.

Thank you.

by nikkid 2008-05-27 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Tips!!

Me me me me!! It's all about ME!!!!

by map 2008-05-27 02:58PM | 0 recs
Suspend....

As an Obama supporter I can live with a suspended C campaign. As long as it is just that... not an active campaign, as of June 4th, or even a few days beyond that. So no behind the scenes manuveuring, just a campaign that is in abeyance on the unlikely chance a meteor strikes. It seems like a reasonable thing.

To me there is not much difference between a suspended campaign and a withdrawal. I have always assumed that candidates can re-enter the contest if something terrible happens to the presumed nominee. In fact that has been the basis behind why I, personally, have wished for a Clinton withdrawal sooner. I always saw it as a potentially powerful player in reserve in case of disaster.

To me, an active Clinton campaign past, say June 10th would just serves to polarize me in a way I have not been, and I sincerely hope it does not come to that as I hate that mixture of adrenaline and negative emotions.

by notedgeways 2008-05-27 02:53PM | 0 recs
You're kidding, right?

It's politics. People manuever behind the scenes in their sleep. It's programmed into their genes. That being said, people also get their asses handed to them for going over the line, too. So, I'm fine with this, as well.

by bobswern 2008-05-27 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Suspend....

Yes, and I imagine your mixture of adrenaline and negative emotions are the exact thing that Hillary Clinton is considering in her decision.

Perhaps Barack Obama will take my personal emotional state into consideration as well.

by markjay 2008-05-27 03:45PM | 0 recs
This borders upon troll-ish.... n/t

by bobswern 2008-05-27 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

we'll take it to the convention, that will give Barack a chance to show his stuff and reverse the dive he's been taking since the end of February.  It's a gentle dive, but it's still in the wrong direction.  We need the candidate who can win. When he's able to poll ahead of Hillary in a match up with McCain over electoral votes, I'll stand in line and support him, that's a promise.  

by anna shane 2008-05-27 03:18PM | 0 recs
And what about after the convention?

That will take us through August.  Don't we get a period of grieving, then for the Clinton family and their supporters?  Maybe the month of September could be devoted to retrospectives of their careers, testimonials from Obama about what great fighters they are, town halls and polls of former Clinton supporters to see how many of them are willing to vote for Obama after the terrible disrespect he showed Hillary by winning at the convention...  And of course, we will have announcements of book deals.

That could take up most of September.  But what about October?  Let's not forget, Bill and Hillary will offer to campaign for Obama to help him with those difficult white working class voters.  They'll go out there on the stump with him and hug him and tell people not to shoot him or vote against him.

That would take up most of October.  

That would leave Obama exactly three days in November to campaign against McCain.  And if he loses, so what?  We can do this all over again in 2012, Hillary vs. Obama to go up against President McCain.

by Dumbo 2008-05-27 03:19PM | 0 recs
Are you saying we're d-o-o-m-e-d?!?

OMG! Are you saying: "If we do this according to the rules, we're doomed?"

That would appear to be what you're saying here.

In fact, alienating people that cast half the votes in the Democratic primaries does not appear to be a wise move to sway Democratic Party candidates in the public's favor.

To some on these blogs, this basic thought is just an annoying concept. To me, it is perhaps the most important concept.

Second to that is the concept that this is not the closest, hardest-fought primary in our Party in a very, very long time...perhaps ever.

How does anyone discount this reality by pouring gasoline on that fire of support indicated by more than half the Democratic votes cast in this Party Primary to date? What logical, constructive excuse is there to just ignore these truths?

by bobswern 2008-05-27 04:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Are you saying we're d-o-o-m-e-d?!?

Everything will be done according to the rules at the convention.

I think you missed the point that we ought to go to the convention united, not to have a floor fight.

And really, I think many Obama supporters don't even mind if Hillary goes to convention and makes a case for her nomination.  I think what they are concerned about is the way Hillary is trying to change the rules at the last minute.  

by hienmango 2008-05-27 06:45PM | 0 recs
Is This Snark?

Serious question.

by turtlescrubber 2008-05-27 03:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

McCain is still called the presumptive nominee. The GE has already started. By the first week of June Obama will have enough delegates to be the presumptive nominee and the GE will kick into overdrive.

Hillary can get on board or not at that point but nothing will change at the convention.

by hankg 2008-05-27 03:34PM | 0 recs
Sorry, but beating McCain is more important to me

I would never have advocated Obama taking it to the convention if he had clearly lost well before that.

No matter what the rules say, the convention IS an infomercial. It is supposed to showcase party unity, and is supposed to market our candidate to the country with a few days of free airtime.

To suggest that giving up this opportunity does not tremendously help McCain is intellectually dishonest.

Talk about disrespect. To take this to the convention after clearly losing is extremely disrespectful to Obama, his supporters and the Democratic Party.

If he crosses the threshold of a delegate majority (and we will know the exactly threshold after May 31st), then he has secured the nomination. To challenge him on that is harmful to our party and the country.

by BlueGAinDC 2008-05-27 03:53PM | 0 recs
Get over it or get out of the way

She lost.  It is over.  

Either get on the Obama bandwagon or get out of the way.  There is too much at stake to wait for Hillary  die hards to get over the fact that she lost.

by Blue Neponset 2008-05-27 03:54PM | 0 recs
It's about respect for ALL Democrats, stupid!

Thank you for this diary. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

This should be printed on the front page of every newspaper and blog, read verbatim on every news cast and radio show, and shouted from every mountain top from sea to shining sea. This is a democracy not Obamaland or Obamanation or The World According to Obama! Cool your jets Obama fans and let this process play out. Half of the Democratic party would appreciate your patience.  

by grlpatriot 2008-05-27 03:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Hillary is free to take it to the convention and democratic party members, whether they be superdelegates or not are allowed to tell her that they dont think thats such a good idea in the interests of the party. I dont think anyone is saying that the rules dont allow it.

by gatti1 2008-05-27 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

"The Party is split. It needs time to heal."

So let's continue attacking & campgaigning against each other as part of the healing process????

by catilinus 2008-05-27 03:58PM | 0 recs
I Have the answer!

 Start the 2012 campaign for President much earlier - it will give the people enough debates, and the candidates enough time to sue.

by xdem 2008-05-27 04:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Wonderful post.  All we have to make sure of is that HIllary stays in the race because there are NO votes until August.  I hope that many delegates who say they support Obama will see that they have made a terrible mistake in the meantime.  I know SO many people who are sorry that they voted for him now that they are getting a peek at what is underneath the slick surface.

by The Smoldering Crone 2008-05-27 04:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

I am sure there are plenty of New Yorkers who would probably want to take back their votes for Hillary in 2006 after how she has behaved recently.

by rf7777 2008-05-27 04:28PM | 0 recs
Convention Floorfight = Self-Assured Destruction

A convention fight ensures a November loss. Either Barack Obama will have to fight off challenges from the right and from the left which will imperil his chances or Hillary will have won through backroom deals against the clear pledged vote winner.  In the first case, Barack loses the opportunity to bring back Hill's voters.  In the second, Hill would lose a significant share of Barack voters.  

Maybe you care more for Hillary than you do for enacting Hillary's priorities, but I don't

by zadura 2008-05-27 04:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

Fine,

then we lose in November. Floor fight = Dem loss in November (unless you are FDR and its the Great Depression).

by IowaMike 2008-05-27 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

And when Hillary concedes Jun 6th, do we still have to pretend it isn't settled?

by mattw 2008-05-27 05:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...
My question exactly. How many diaries will we have to endure after she drops out that will claim "It is not over" "She can come back in the race and sway the superdelegates".
It is one thing to reluctantly back Obama ; it is quite another to watch over his shoulder for the first difficulty he will expectedly encounter to try to sink the whole boat.
by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-27 06:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...
Yes! Let's divide the party right when we're supposed to sell our message to the whole country!!
Meanwhile the repubs will give their usual, ass kicking, united appearing convention.
by astronautagogo 2008-05-27 06:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Do it at the Convention, and not before...

So it sounds like you're saying "Shut up, then let's heal."

Interesting.

I prefer the more direct method: Fuck off, die, -then let's heal.

by Rationalisto 2008-05-27 07:07PM | 0 recs

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