Breaking: China calls for replacing $ as world currency

The lead story in the world press tomorrow will be this:

(Remember, this is from the Wall Street Journal, so, to say it's biased is an understatement. This is very bad news for Americans, anyway you slice or dice it. It also throws a massive wrench into the Obama administration's efforts--or anyone's efforts for that matter--to get our economy up and running again. More on this below.)

"China Takes Aim at Dollar"

China Takes Aim at Dollar

BEIJING -- China called for the creation of a new currency to eventually replace the dollar as the world's standard, proposing a sweeping overhaul of global finance that reflects developing nations' growing unhappiness with the U.S. role in the world economy.

The unusual proposal, made by central bank governor Zhou Xiaochuan in an essay released Monday in Beijing, is part of China's increasingly assertive approach to shaping the global response to the financial crisis.

Mr. Zhou's proposal comes amid preparations for a summit of the world's industrial and developing nations, the Group of 20, in London next week. At past meetings, developed nations have criticized China's economic and currency policies.

This time, China is on the offensive, backed by other emerging economies such as Russia in making clear they want a global economic order less dominated by the U.S. and other wealthy nations.

The implications of this move are, in a word, stunning. Regardless of whether this occurs in the immediate future, or not, it's not good.

Fed Chair Ben Bernanke just poured over a trillion dollars into supporting our government debt in the world marketplace.

The already-greatly-diminishing demand for U.S. debt means that the buyer of it, of last resort (that's us, in case you didn't know this), will have to come to the table with more, sooner, than projected.

Our bailout just became much more costly than most here may now realize.

Think of it this way...let's say the Euro becomes the new global currency. This means that things like oil are bought, primarily, with Euros (once that happens), as opposed to dollars, which is what's used (primarily) today.

As the dollar continues it's rapidly-increasing devaluation against the Euro (and most other currencies), that means we have to pay much, much more for goods, commodities and services that are produced outside of our borders.

So, if gas increased this coming Summer like it increased this past Summer, and our currency is devalued at, say, 50% against the Euro, that means we'd have to buy $8.00 worth of Euros to buy that $4.00 gallon of gas that we bought last Summer in the upcoming Summer season.

Get the picture? And, that's just a part of how inflation goes through the roof.

With the dollar as the world's currency, we've been living in a world full of benefits that come along with that.

At best, that's going to diminsh greatly going forward, from now on. At worst, we could see massive hyperinflation unlike anything this country's ever witnessed. The end result, hopefully, will be something in-between...but we don't know what we don't know, do we?

And, we sure as hell no longer control our own destiny like we did in decade's past, either.

Perhaps that's the scariest reality of all.

We truly are witnessing the twilight of our country's power on the world stage. Tonight's announcement in Beijing is a major milestone.

More on this, from a perspective of almost a year ago (which I find quite interesting, from a chronological standpoint), is available from an article by Felipe Larraine from April 29th, 2008, via economist Nouriel Roubini's website: "The Future of the Dollar."

I'm expecting many good diaries from our resident expert on all this now! (Yeah, that's you, Charles!) Tell us (much) more about what this all means, please! (And, yes, we're lucky to have you here during this time; perhaps much more than some here might realize, too!)

Go for it!

Tags: china, depression, devaluation, Economy, global economy, Recession, Tim Geithner, U.S. dollar, world currency (all tags)



Tips: Save 'em for Charles Lemos. Preach it! n/t

by bobswern 2009-03-23 07:26PM | 0 recs
Didn't Saddam suggest that too?

Right before we attacked Iraq.

Its there, buried in the historical record.

Not important. Move along now.

by architek 2009-03-24 04:39AM | 0 recs
Replacement currency?

What currency would replace the dollar right now? I don't see it. The Euro? Don't they have their own problems? I beleive what you say is a big problem given China's relationship to the U.S. But, I am also trying to figure out how big a threat is it in practical terms?

by bruh3 2009-03-23 07:47PM | 0 recs

Guess we dodged a bullet there eh, Bruh?

No need to stock up on those zlotys

by architek 2009-03-24 04:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Whew!

How does this answer my question?

by bruh3 2009-03-24 06:19AM | 0 recs
Why don't they use blood?
Human blood...
Or some digital "equivalent"
by architek 2009-03-27 06:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Breaking: China calls for replacing $


China can bloviate all it wants... if the dollar's value drops significantly, all their production will return to where it started... right here... especially if we get some sort of decent universal health care...

This is posturing... nothing more! China loves to do that...

by LordMike 2009-03-23 07:48PM | 0 recs
Exactly so.

The Chinese can complain all they want, but supporting U.S. debt is what keeps their factories churning out all the stuff they make and we buy. It's like bitching about what your mom made for dinner...whine all you want, but you'll either have to eat it or leave hungry.

by Spiffarino 2009-03-23 09:36PM | 0 recs
US investment in manufacturing infrastructure

The Great Obama will wave his hand, and the factories will be rebuilt, modern and gleaming. Green jobs for everybody, digging holes and filling them up again for $20/hr or more.

A New Washington will emerge from the Beltway, gleaming, and clean.


by architek 2009-03-24 04:44AM | 0 recs
Re: US investment in manufacturing infrastructure


by Spiffarino 2009-03-26 07:28AM | 0 recs
Even the article downplays this...

Bob, you're the king of the MyDD financial studs, but gotta disagree with ya here at bit:

However, the technical and political hurdles to implementing China's recommendation are enormous, so even if backed by other nations, the proposal is unlikely to change the dollar's role in the short term.

And, in the short term, the Chinese hold so many dollars, tanking it is committing suicide.

I think this is a bit of bluster on their part, chest pounding, but no one is going to panic or are we going to see a world dollar collapse.

Let's see what the market does tomorrow, but, I think this maybe not the bombshell you think it is.

by WashStateBlue 2009-03-23 07:50PM | 0 recs
WSB, what markets do means nothing!

This is at the heart of the misinformation of our dysfunctional MSM, at least as far as the economy's concerned.

The stock market's performance has no rational relationship to what's happening in the economy. It's a totally false meme, but it's exploited for political reasons by all politicians, and the Obama administration is no exception in this regard.

How the markets move may have significant political implications, but these political responses to market moves are often-times completely at odds with the real situation as far as the economy's concerned. And, the public--who's only looking at their 401k balances--doesn't understand this.

It's hugely frustrating for many to understand how difficult it is for others to understand these truths.

The stock markets are Venus. The economy's Mars. They have nothing to do with each other's gravitational pulls...except in instances like the Weimar Republic in the 1920's, etc., etc.

I don't know what the U.S. index futures are for tomorrow...should be interesting...but, it's very likely that they'll have nothing to do with reality.

Today's performance, for instance, is a perfect example.

The markets are driven by only a few basic things, with one of the biggest of those forces being: news. And, as we all know, the MSM is a perfect reflection of the world's realities, right? LOL!

by bobswern 2009-03-23 08:13PM | 0 recs
Case-in-point...about 10-12 days ago...

The Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB), the folks that write the guidelines for the accounting industry in the U.S., under pressure from folks like totally-in-the-tank-for-the-financial-se rvices-sector  Rep. Kanjorski (D-PA), is in the process of concluding it's effort to "redefine" the meaning of the term: "NET INCOME."

In a nutshell, from now on, when you see it on a set of corporate financials, it'll no longer have any bearing in reality. (No need to go into details. I'm just citing an example relating to something else.)

Around the same time, CEO's from Citi, BofA, and JP Morgan Chase announced that "this quarter" their banks would show a "profit."

Citi and BofA, no matter how you slice or dice it, are zombie banks. Plain and simple. (Chase is still hanging in there.)

Bank stocks went through the roof. The public sucked-in the story and went crazy.

Look at Enron's stock in their lead-up to their bankruptcy announcement! (All based upon bullshit.)

Well, bullshit has just been sanctioned as the "American way" when it comes to corporate financials. (Not that it wasn't before.)

The numbers we hear about this in the news these days are totally, totally, totally, incredible. Yet the markets are manipulated on a sound bite, aren't they?

But, it has nothing to do with reality.

by bobswern 2009-03-23 08:21PM | 0 recs
I have recced

But I was significantly underwhelmed by the news.

The Chinese have called for an examination of the process by which the dollar could be replaced as the currency of choice.  They have not called for the dollar to be replaced. (At least that is how I read it)

Obviously, if the US does not get it's house in order, then the Chinese will act to replace the dollar with something else...but we are not at that stage yet.

by Ravi Verma 2009-03-23 08:11PM | 0 recs
LOL! It's okay, LB....doubting me is a pastime!

LOL! (Again.)

But, read what Charles Lemos has to say about all this...and there'll be plenty of other commentary coming out on all of this over the next few days, too.

The G-20 meeting should be quite interesting...and, remember, we're not just talking about China...Russia called for the same thing just the other day.

There've been major stories and blog posts over the past year predicting what's playing out now.

Personally, I didn't think it was inevitable...but, it was always very possible...and it's definitely happening.

The WSJ piece is very biased...consider the source.

by bobswern 2009-03-23 08:27PM | 0 recs
As a matter of policy...

I do not read the wall street journal.

But here is the original essay (you will have to click on the speeches link, and then click on the 3-23-09 link, for some reason the link does not appear to work properly)

Reform the International Monetary System

Zhou xiaochuan

The outbreak of the current crisis and its spillover in the world confronted us with the long existing but still unanswered question, i.e., what kind of international reserve currency do we need to secure global financial stability and facilitate world economic growth, which was one of the purposes for establishing the IMF? There were various institutional arrangements in an attempt to find a solution, including the Silver Standard, the Gold Standard, the Gold Exchange Standard and the Bretton Woods system. The above issue, however, as the ongoing financial crisis demonstrates, is far from being solved, and has become even more severe due to the inherent weaknesses of the current international monetary system.

Theoretically, an international reserve currency should first be anchored to a stable benchmark and issued according to a clear set of rules, therefore to ensure orderly supply; second, its supply should be flexible enough to allow timely adjustment according to the changing demand; third, such adjustments should be disconnected from economic conditions and sovereign interests of any single country. The acceptance of credit-based national currencies as major international reserve currencies, as is the case in the current system, is a rare special case in history. The crisis called again for creative reform of the existing international monetary system towards an international reserve currency with a stable value, rule-based issuance and manageable supply, so as to achieve the objective of safeguarding global economic and financial stability.

I. The outbreak of the crisis and its spillover to the entire world reflected the inherent vulnerabilities and systemic risks in the existing international monetary system.

Issuing countries of reserve currencies are constantly confronted with the dilemma between achieving their domestic monetary policy goals and meeting other countries' demand for reserve currencies. On the one hand��the monetary authorities can not simply focus on domestic goals without carrying out their international responsibilities��on the other hand��they cannot pursue different domestic and international objectives at the same time. They may either fail to adequately meet the demand of a growing global economy for liquidity as they tries to ease inflation pressures at home, or create excess liquidity in the global markets by overly stimulating domestic demand. The Triffin Dilemma, i.e., the issuing countries of reserve currencies can not maintain the value of the reserve currencies while providing liquidity to the world, still exists.

When a national currency is used in pricing primary commodities, trade settlements and is adopted as a reserve currency globally, efforts of the monetary authority issuing such a currency to address its economic imbalances by adjusting exchange rate would be made in vain, as its currency serves as a benchmark for many other currencies. While benefiting from a widely accepted reserve currency, the globalization also suffers from the flaws of such a system. The frequency and increasing intensity of financial crises following the collapse of the Bretton Woods system suggests the costs of such a system to the world may have exceeded its benefits. The price is becoming increasingly higher, not only for the users, but also for the issuers of the reserve currencies. Although crisis may not necessarily be an intended result of the issuing authorities, it is an inevitable outcome of the institutional flaws.

II. The desirable goal of reforming the international monetary system, therefore, is to create an international reserve currency that is disconnected from individual nations and is able to remain stable in the long run, thus removing the inherent deficiencies caused by using credit-based national currencies.

1. Though the super-sovereign reserve currency has long since been proposed, yet no substantive progress has been achieved to date. Back to the 1940s, Keynes had already proposed to introduce an international currency unit named "Bancor", based on the value of 30 representative commodities. Unfortunately, the proposal was not accepted. The collapse of the Bretton Woods system, which was based on the White approach, indicates that the Keynesian approach may be more farsighted. The IMF also created the SDR in 1969, when the defects of the Bretton Woods system initially emerged, to mitigate the inherent risks sovereign reserve currencies caused. Yet, the role of the SDR has not been put into full play due to limitations on its allocation and the scope of its uses. However, it serves as the light in the tunnel for the reform of the international monetary system.

2. A super-sovereign reserve currency not only eliminates the inherent risks of credit-based sovereign currency, but also makes it possible to manage global liquidity. A super-sovereign reserve currency managed by a global institution could be used to both create and control the global liquidity. And when a country's currency is no longer used as the yardstick for global trade and as the benchmark for other currencies, the exchange rate policy of the country would be far more effective in adjusting economic imbalances. This will significantly reduce the risks of a future crisis and enhance crisis management capability.

III. The reform should be guided by a grand vision and start with specific deliverables. It should be a gradual process that yields win-win results for all

The reestablishment of a new and widely accepted reserve currency with a stable valuation benchmark may take a long time. The creation of an international currency unit, based on the Keynesian proposal, is a bold initiative that requires extraordinary political vision and courage. In the short run, the international community, particularly the IMF, should at least recognize and face up to the risks resulting from the existing system, conduct regular monitoring and assessment and issue timely early warnings.

Special consideration should be given to give the SDR a greater role. The SDR has the features and potential to act as a super-sovereign reserve currency. Moreover, an increase in SDR allocation would help the Fund address its resources problem and the difficulties in the voice and representation reform. Therefore, efforts should be made to push forward a SDR allocation. This will require political cooperation among member countries. Specifically, the Fourth Amendment to the Articles of Agreement and relevant resolution on SDR allocation proposed in 1997 should be approved as soon as possible so that members joined the Fund after 1981 could also share the benefits of the SDR. On the basis of this, considerations could be given to further increase SDR allocation.

The scope of using SDR should be broadened, so as to enable it to fully satisfy the member countries' demand for a reserve currency.

   Set up a settlement system between the SDR and other currencies. Therefore, the SDR, which is now only used between governments and international institutions, could become a widely accepted means of payment in international trade and financial transactions.

   Actively promote the use of the SDR in international trade, commodities pricing, investment and corporate book-keeping. This will help enhance the role of the SDR, and will effectively reduce the fluctuation of prices of assets denominated in national currencies and related risks.

   Create financial assets denominated in the SDR to increase its appeal. The introduction of SDR-denominated securities, which is being studied by the IMF, will be a good start.

   Further improve the valuation and allocation of the SDR. The basket of currencies forming the basis for SDR valuation should be expanded to include currencies of all major economies, and the GDP may also be included as a weight. The allocation of the SDR can be shifted from a purely calculation-based system to one backed by real assets, such as a reserve pool, to further boost market confidence in its value.

��. Entrusting part of the member countries' reserve to the centralized management of the IMF will not only enhance the international community's ability to address the crisis and maintain the stability of the international monetary and financial system, but also significantly strengthen the role of the SDR.

1. Compared with separate management of reserves by individual countries, the centralized management of part of the global reserve by a trustworthy international institution with a reasonable return to encourage participation will be more effective in deterring speculation and stabilizing financial markets. The participating countries can also save some reserve for domestic development and economic growth. With its universal membership, its unique mandate of maintaining monetary and financial stability, and as an international "supervisor" on the macroeconomic policies of its member countries, the IMF, equipped with its expertise, is endowed with a natural advantage to act as the manager of its member countries' reserves.

2. The centralized management of its member countries' reserves by the Fund will be an effective measure to promote a greater role of the SDR as a reserve currency. To achieve this, the IMF can set up an open-ended SDR-denominated fund based on the market practice, allowing subscription and redemption in the existing reserve currencies by various investors as desired. This arrangement will not only promote the development of SDR-denominated assets, but also partially makes the management of the liquidity in the form of the existing reserve currencies possible. It can even lay a foundation for increasing SDR allocation to gradually replace existing reserve currencies with the SDR.

by Ravi Verma 2009-03-23 08:49PM | 0 recs
And as I read it,

I took it to be a gedanken experiment, rather than an actual excersise.  Notice the verbage on "gradual processes" that must be "win-win" for all, etc. etc.

And so, no... I am not doubting you; I am sure you interpret it (and the WSJ article) the way you have described in your diary.  I am just saying that the original essay does not give me the same sense of panic as your diary does!!

by Ravi Verma 2009-03-23 08:52PM | 0 recs
How does the growing US debt figure into $ worth?

Do we still need those 1500 bases, for example.

Or perhaps Japan or Korea could afford to defend themselves now?

Or is that off the table, like universal healthcare?

by architek 2009-03-24 04:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Breaking: China calls for replacing $ as world

wow - but IMO bloviating and posturing.  its not as if china has any credibility on currency matters.  people better versed on these matters can explain - but china has a huge role in the world economy shake down from playing around with their currency.

by canadian gal 2009-03-23 08:30PM | 0 recs
I say raise interest rates

and kill inflation as the economy recovers at the same time. I think a recovery is on its way, if the plan for toxic assets really works out for the banks. The markets rallied on it today. The Euro would be a piss poor idea given that all of those countries are in economic disarray, and their economies do not necessarily go in sync. If they want a world market crash, go ahead. Adopt the Euro. We will come back stronger than ever, I promise you.

by Lakrosse 2009-03-23 08:37PM | 0 recs
US assuming 85% of toxic exposure

The banks WILL default on those loans.. But it will be spread out over time.

Why not let the increasingly moldy abandoned houses be sold at their real values?

Prices that reflect the new economic realities.. i.e. real salaries.

by architek 2009-03-24 04:55AM | 0 recs
Well at first glance

it means the Chinese, and this guy is the Chinese central bank's governor, so akin to Bernanke, are worried that in order to finance our deficit the Federal Reserve will resort to printing money. Given that the Fed is going down this route, it is a fair worry for the Chinese. They worry that as soon as the economy recovers, the Fed is going to have a hard time pulling all that excess liquidity out of the system and thus inflation will rear its ugly head and in turn diluting their dollar holdings.

More importantly it does seem to suggest a shift in the global balance of power in terms of a China that speaks its mind increasingly candidly. I'm a China hawk and I agree with the statement that the winner of the Iraq War is primarily . . . China. The costs of strategic distraction. The Chinese want us kept busy and bogged down.

This suggestion has been floated before here and there. Even at Davos there was talk of a second Bretton Woods.

I have to read the actual essay first though. But the other point to keep in mind is that China has its own set of problems, political and economic. The CCP isn't out of the woods. Their export model is under stress. 20 million migrants have lost jobs since the start of financial crisis. For China, that's not just an economic problem but a political. The system that China has created is extremely bifurcated and uneven.

by Charles Lemos 2009-03-23 10:20PM | 0 recs
Going by your rationale...

the winner of the Afghanistan war (or the GWOT, or whatever you call it) will also primarily be... China!!

by Ravi Verma 2009-03-24 08:25AM | 0 recs
China ain't doing nothing yet


I highly recommend your diary.  But I disagree with you that the problem is imminent. Let me explain:

1. The stimulus package --> while a LOT smaller than what should be in place, it will help money moving in the marketplace.  Not that the stimulus package is a save all end all process.

2. The Geitner plan --> While "Phase II" of the Geitner plan (using taxpayer dollars to bailout banks holding toxic assets) in a supposed private-public ownership structure that enriches only the private while totally bankrupting the public is completely out-of-whack with reality at this point, I expect big changes.  Right now, its a Democratic led administration, and whatever checks and balances will hopefully be spelled out by congress... so far, I would say the Netroots have been like a hawk over the administration in being outraged by this plan.  I have confidence in the Obama administration not to 'backtrack' but to fill in their 'lack of details and specifics' with good ideas that I expect the Libertarian Netroots and Progressive Netroots will share on the topic.

3. The Global economy --> which has tanked far worse than the American economy.  Europe is in dire straits, China does not know what to do regarding its huge unemployment, and without high oil prices... Russia has not much to offer in terms of economic clout.

Given the 3 options above, I expect any current attempt to dislodge the dollar as highly unlikely.

The only way for the dollar to totally tank, and for the US to suffer from Hyperinflation is a perfect storm similar to the following:

1. There is a simultaneous housing boom in Brazil, China, India, and Europe.  In other words, 'good' money will not go invest in 'toxic assets' but rather go and purchase good assets in these other countries.

2. Consumerism grows exponentially in the domestic markets of developing nations.

3.  There is widespread panic against the United States that gets most countries decide to pull out sovereign wealth funds and all their assets to stay clear of the American market.

In my opinion, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.  For these 3 to simultaneously happen, they would have to be a large paradigm shift in forms of revolutions happening in many parts of the world almost at the same time.  This is because the current sets of 'the elite' in global societies are not willing to restructure the world that actually builds market based societies that will make them reduce their power.  Right now, the US-centric consumerism works for "everyone" (meaning the collection of elites).

As such, confidence building measures and the application of the Stimulus and many re-edits of the Geitner plan and its variations will go through.  If the Geitner plan fails, then we know there is a plan 'B' that will involve much more Krugman-style intervention into the markets (good or bad, who is really to judge at this time?).  Its only if and only if all these were to fail within the next 3-5 years (or maybe even more) that we should start hitting panic buttons on the demise of the United States as an economic powerhouse.

Now, this is a debate with many opinions and is on-going in the public sphere.

My opinion is that there is no need to hit any panic buttons yet, and work with the Geitner main-frame for now and call it quits only after it has been proven bad.

by Dickie Simpkins 2009-03-24 12:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Breaking: China calls for replacing

I heard a theory years ago that the real reason we went into Iraq was to keep Saddam Hussein from putting the oil market on the Euro. If any currency replaced the dollar as the world currency it would be the Euro, no?

by Todd Beeton 2009-03-24 02:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Breaking: China calls for replacing

Not necessarily.

by bruh3 2009-03-24 06:22AM | 0 recs
As recently as 1849,

the Chinese GDP was about 25% of the world's total.  The Euro (adding up all the currencies within the Euro) was around 10%.

Going by the long march of history, the dominance of the dollar (and the Euro zone before it) is a transient phenomenon.  And going by that, the currency that will replace the dollar is the Yuan.

by Ravi Verma 2009-03-24 08:23AM | 0 recs
The end of the Dollar

100 years ago the British arrogantly thought that the British Pound would forever be the foundation of the world economy. Many in the US display the same hubris about the dollar's reserve status today. Before the Republican ascendancy the US was the world's largest creditor and largest exporter of manufactured goods. Having gutted our income producing economy and replaced it with a vast Ponzi scheme we are now the world's biggest debtor. We have been maintaining our living standards despite declining real middle class income by borrowing money from the rest of the world with our number 1 creditor being China.

The collapse of the credit bubble means the end of the US consumer as the engine of the global economy. US consumers now must focus on saving and repairing their balance sheets which means a lower standard of living and less consumption. This process has already begun in earnest as we have gone from a negative to positive savings rate in the last few months.

The exporting nations are already being forced to develop local and regional consumption to replace dependance on the US consumer. There is less incentive going forward for the leading exporting nations to subsidize our consumption only to be repaid in devalued dollars.

If we survive the current crisis and avoid a deflationary collapse the price we will pay will be raging inflation. Good for creditors like us but bad for the lenders. At that point it is reasonable to assume that the world will tire of financing our living standards at the expense of their own and some scheme involving a basket of currencies or some new pan-asian or global currency will supplant a collapsing dollar.

by hankg 2009-03-24 06:08AM | 0 recs
This is alarmism

It's ok to be concerned, but china cant' do this of its own accord, yet this  diary treats this as a fait accompli.

by Mayor McCheese 2009-03-24 12:05PM | 0 recs
"Fait accompli ?"


Regardless of whether this occurs in the immediate future, or not, it's not good.

Generally speaking (there are exceptions) external pressure on devaluation of our dollar is bad news, regardless of whether or not the dollar's replaced as the world's currency.

Inflation is difficult enough to control when you're enabled to truly control it.

But, when forces outside of your control affect your own efforts to modulate inflation--no matter what the reason--that's a pretty bad thing.

And, ironically, that's the saddest thing about the situation this country's in right now, in general: We don't control our own destiny like we used to, as far as all of this concerned.

by bobswern 2009-03-24 01:12PM | 0 recs
Re: "Fait accompli ?"

You said whether it occurs in the immediate future or not,implying that it will occur at some point.

by Mayor McCheese 2009-03-24 01:15PM | 0 recs
I vote for the Canadian Dollar!

It's much pretty then ours, and we can make trades in Loonies and Two-nies!

Come on CG, get on the bandwagon and sell this one to Ottawa!

by WashStateBlue 2009-03-24 02:28PM | 0 recs


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