Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I've been unsurprised to find that Senator Obama and his supporters are 'giving' Hillary their 'permission' to stay in the race, as long as she doesn't 'further diminish' Barack.  Some months back I wrote a diary about his strategy for winning the nomination that nullifies his reason to run in the first place - that he's a brand new kind of guy who represents change that is unifying and not divisive, but his strategy it to drive up Hillary's negatives through sarcastic and sexist character assassination. He's said he plays "Chicago Smack Down," and so he does.  Much of the media is now, and without apparent irony, blaming Barack's problems with the electorate on Hillary. I think that he's positioned himself to blame a GE loss on her, should he win the nomination and go down in flames.  

Outside the obvious conclusion, which is that he knows he hasn't won and his only real chance is to bully her out of the race before the voters have had their say and before the super delegates indicate which one they think will have the best chance of winning in November, it's clear that he's doing his best to shut the contest down, and anoint himself the 'winner,' so that he can claim to the super delegates that she'll never win the African American vote if she's seen as someone who has denied him his rightful destiny.   (Divide much lately?)  

But he has another plan as well, to keep Hillary from campaigning. His supporters are warning her (is it a threat, no, it's a warning?) to keep quiet on the campaign trail or risk being branded as the castrating woman who cost Barack his manly image.  I don't think there is much chance of that, he may be seen as elitist and effete, but he sure can be tough on girls and old people, as long as it's not face to face, and if that isn't manly I don't know manly. I'm very tired of this media bashing and Obama supporter bashing of Hillary, since I admire her and more than half registered Democrats also admire her. It now seems that he may 'give' us some token woman (we're all replaceable, right?) to appease us. Perhaps Nancy Pelosi, who comes from a politically connected family, will be 'chosen' for us by him, to appease us?  

I say to Hillary, keep on talking.  Keep campaigning, for us.  It's not over when the media tell us it is, it's not over when Barack crowns himself in his first (of many?) mission accomplished moments, it's over when all the votes are cast, when the super's have endorsed, and when one or the other gives up.  If neither gives up, it won't be over until the convention.  Democracy doesn't have a 'keep out the girls' sign on the door and voters get to chose their own girl, we don't need 'a man' to chose a girl for us, thank you, but no thanks.  

Tags: Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Primaries, projection (all tags)

Comments

323 Comments

Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Barack cannot be further diminished.

My bad his advisor just quit due to Hamas ties...

by DTaylor 2008-05-10 11:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Troll rated for shamelessly parroting right wing talking points.

by map 2008-05-10 11:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

This has 0 written all over it unless Taylor can find a credible news source that confirms what he is saying.

by mefck 2008-05-10 11:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I'm actually sympathetic to Obama on this one, but you shouldn't be troll-rating DTaylor on the quality of his sources. Here's a better one if you really care:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail /2008/05/09/obama_adviser_tied_to_hamas_ me.html

by Inky 2008-05-10 12:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Not exactly "Hamas ties" which makes it seems he was past of that terrorist group or sympathetic to them:

In reporting analytic reports he wrote for ICG, Malley would interview Hamas officials, as well as Israeli, American, European and other Palestinian officials. The reports, which made clear he had met with Hamas, feature recommendations for key players in the peace process. Malley said he informed the State Department before he met with Hamas and then briefed State afterwards on what he had learned.

"To do my job, I have to meet with savory and unsavory people," he said.

But Malley said that after he fielded a call this morning from the Times of London, which asked about the Hamas meetings, he decided he had had enough. "This was a distraction for me; this was a distraction for them," he said Friday night. "It is absurd, but that is what this campaign is about."

I stand by my "0" rating for now.

by mefck 2008-05-10 01:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Stay classy Nobama.  Certainly posting the text of an article that others were taking out of context is worthy of a troll rating.

by mefck 2008-05-10 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

More on the point of an article....if you negotiate with someone, that means you have ties to them?  So President Clinton has toes to Palestinian terrorists because he negotiated with Arafat?  And I guess Chamberlin had ties to Nazis because he negotiated with Hitler.

Just shows how wrongheaded and counterproductive DTaylor's initial comment was.  

by mefck 2008-05-10 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Seriously Nobama.  Read MYDD's guidelines.

by mefck 2008-05-10 02:25PM | 0 recs
Troll rated for unecessary troll rating

by lombard 2008-05-10 03:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

"Hamas" ties??? You have seriously gone off the deep end. Keep on Clinging.

by venician 2008-05-10 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

And for some reason, TeresainPA uprated this comment to a "@".  Color me shocked.

by mefck 2008-05-10 12:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Should read to a "2".

by mefck 2008-05-10 12:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

That 'advisor' (non-official, non-paid, one of among 100's of so called advisors to his campaign) you speak of, Robert Malley, met with Hamas as director of International Crisis Group, a conflict resolution org. He says he resigned, could have been fired.  VERY distant advisor.  However, he was a PAID ADVISOR to Pres Bill Clinton during his administration.

by mariannie 2008-05-10 07:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Stay and campaign, but stop tearing down the likely Democratic nominee.  That's the message.  That's what the remaining SD's are saying.

by map 2008-05-10 11:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

that's 'man speak' for castrating?  How weak he must feel to fear what she might say.  he's tearing her down all the time, who's going to tell him to shut up. Well, no one, not even her, she knows it isn't personal, he's trying to win the good old fashioned way, by making his opponent look weird and old.  She's making him look weak only in comparison to her own performance. But it's not about him, her strengths aren't there to castrate him, they're there because she's strong and capable and, well, rather wonderful.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

She isn't going to win. Sorry.  

I am really distressed that you continue spouting republican talking points, where all Democratic men are wimps and all Democratic women are ball busters.  KNOCK IT OFF

by map 2008-05-10 11:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I never knew the pugs were feminist. You could never tell by looking at them.  Actually, I think you're wrong.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I never knew feminism was grounded in characterizing men as wimps and women as ball busters.

by map 2008-05-10 11:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Only men and the women who defend them consider some women ball busters, I don't.  But that's what the shut up Hilary pundits are really saying, they use the word diminish, get it?  feminism is grounded in equality, that's legal equality and employment equality, and equality in medicine and justice. Feminism led to Title !X (did I get that right) which is why we have women's athletics in schools.  Women are now allowed into all graduate schools and most college kids are women these days but that was not always the case. Where women are severely underrepresented is in positions of power, in industry and in politics.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

And yet they have the right to run for public office, and have anti-discrimination laws in place to help fight against blatant workplace discrimination. Especially in the public office aspect, you have to realize that electing a woman simply because she is a woman is antithesis to the equality movement. Woman can be, and have been, extremely poor choices for a political candidate. They can also be fantastic ones. The point is that women have the right to run and be elected based not on their gender but on their abilities and qualities as an individual.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

you may think it's simply because she's a woman, why I don't know, have you been listening to the debates, do you know how qualified she is, how much preparation she put in before she threw her hat in the ring, but I see her as the most qualified and best candidate of either sex in my lifetime, and I'm in my sixties.  I see Barack running an old fashioned contest, beat up the adversary and it hasn't worked. And she may still win, isn't that great? A girl stood up to bullies and didn't blink, didn't complain, just got on with the work of campaigning.  Go Hillary!!

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

If its not because of her gender, then why have you spent this entire diary screaming about gender discrimination?

I have to say I'm a little shocked that someone in their sixties is still resorting to mockery instead of rational arguments. It does clarify your militant anti-male stance however.

I understand you've been through situations that many women younger than you haven't in terms of gender equality. What you fail to realize is that due to the contributions of your generation, the situation is vastly different for those that came after you. This antagonistic stance does more to harm than help the new wave of feminists, who work with extremely enlightened men of all stripes, and genuinely see equality in their every day interactions in work and home.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 01:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

you are such a know-it-all. I thought I was the biggest know-it-all but I've met my match.  I bow down to you.

There isn't anything mutually exclusive about supporting a candidate I admire and noticing that she's been told to shut up or she'll castrate some fellow.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

This kind of behavior is a little unseemly for someone with your life experience. And who, exactly, told her to "shut up" before she "castrates" someone?

I understand you have a lot invested in this personally and emotionally, I really do. I've had this same discussion with my own mother, who happens to be your age. And she also agrees that the environment surrounding gender equality is vastly different than it was 30 years ago when I was born.

There's no shame in understanding that progress has been made. There is a problem with refusing to see that progress and continuing to fight a battle that has long passed with tactics that were borderline unacceptable even at the start.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 01:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

the oft repeated talking point is that she can stay in the race as long as she doesn't 'diminish' Barack.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Yeah because we have to win in November and we can't do that if the party is divided.  Thus she has to think about the long term health of the party.  As for Clinton being the most qualified candidate in your lifetime...  Wow, just wow.  Kerry, Gore?  She barely has any legislative experience.

by Philoguy 2008-05-10 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

UpState Girl I was kind of curious.

What is your experience in politics. Just wondering.

As a woman in politics.

Also are you familiar with Carol M. Braun?

Who is the highest ranking political figure that you admire? Female that is.

Finally you are aware that we have only as of the last national election, found ourselves with a female speaker of the house.

When did women get the vote?

Sorry but I'm old enough to remember the bra burnings and life when the wife stayed home. That's a long tough road that Sen. Clinton has traveled to get to this point. Before you lecture Anne Shane in such a condesending manner.

Think.
Please.
Alot of those "older women" are reading this now. Lots of hard work to get you to were you can say so easily that things are different.

Really. :(

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Third generation liberal woman, third generation Democrat, daughter of a medical professional and granddaughter of one of the first women to graduate from Cornell University. I'm not sure what the rest of your questions have to do with my assertion that Anna is way off base with her militant hateful attitude and antagonistic demeanor and how its a poor reflection on the feminist movement.

I have no doubt that women of previous generations fought hard and well for the opportunities my generation of women hold today. But this attitude that because a hard line militant approach worked 20, 30 or 40 years ago it's appropriate today is just incorrect. Its the myopia of seeing things as they were, not as they are.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

So you don't know who Carol M Braun is? I assume that's the reason why you didn't answer.

You don't have a favorite female politian on the national level? Why? I maybe some old fart but I do have women in politics that I admire and those I don't.

How about Johnnie Carr? She died this year. Very active politically up until right before she died.

Do you know who she is?

This is very important to your credibility as spokes person for feminism here.

So what do you know about these women.

Before I listen to you, I'd like to know if you can answer these questions.

You see my mom. She always told me to make sure before I made a final opinion about someone that I should get an idea of who they are and where they are coming from.

Don't worry. I'll ask Anna Shane the same questions.

But they are important to me to get a handle on your feminist background.

Thank you for taking the time and answering quickly.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 06:47PM | 0 recs
um

what does carole mosely braun have to do with upstategirl's feminist creds?

not much i'd imagine.

by annatopia 2008-05-11 07:05AM | 0 recs
Re: um

I should think that a feminist would know Sen. Braun who was a contender in the 2004 presidential race. So should you. Do you know the woman? Who she is? HER accomplishments in politics?

I'm not trying to lecture here.

But wouldn't you be aware of a female who is running for the office of president?

If you are  going to lecture others about what feminism is or isn't?

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-11 03:44PM | 0 recs
Re: um

Annatopia said:

"what does carole mosely braun have to do with upstategirl's feminist creds?

not much i'd imagine."

12 dogs and a blog replied:

I guess it would depend on  how you define feminism.

How do you define feminism? Surely you must know the definition before you can put the word to use?

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-11 04:52PM | 0 recs
Re: um

you're sooo smart, and likable.  

by anna shane 2008-05-18 09:49AM | 0 recs
Re: um

"you're sooo smart, and likable."-Anna Shane

Bless your heart, Anna Shane, thank you so very much for the compliment. :D

Anna Shane. What is your opinion of the passive agressive anger that's been used on the internet?  With regards to this election? Would you ever use snark to express your displeasure at another poster? :D

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-18 07:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

"I have to say I'm a little shocked that someone in their sixties is still resorting to mockery instead of rational arguments."

Upstate girl. I'm no expert on the internet but well my limited experience has mockery about the number one type of argument on the internet.

I usually piss folks off because I tend to intentionally ignore it.

Sigh. Never could get with the program and be suitably chastised. I think it's because I'm just older than dirt and I don't have to put up with it.

LOL

Don't mock. On the internet? Hey I'm all for rational argument. Keep waiting to see substance over style from some candidates since this primary started.

Woo Hoo!

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 07:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Anna, great diary. Sorry that it gets OT so fast. I'm with Inky on the Hamas thing.

Nice of the Obama Camp to "grant" their generous permission.

/snark

by OtherLisa 2008-05-10 03:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I don't see GOP talking points.  I see an outstanding analysis by a good Democrat who supports Hillary.  All you "come to Obama" worshipers  want is praise, halelujah and another "amen" and if anyone dares critiques HIM, you go ballistic.  "Knock it off", indeed.  

by Tolstoy 2008-05-10 07:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

How pathetic.  You twist everything that everyone says to make it an attack or a put-down.  It's projection on your part.

Nobody is telling Hillary to quit or shut up from the Obama campaign; just telling her to accept her role as LOSER of this contest, and stop trying to tear Obama down.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-10 11:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

now I understand, she's supposed to accept that she's a loser. That's way different, not. But what if there isn't yet a winner, does that still make her the loser?  I mean, there are more states with more voters, and last I look the super's hadn't en masse rushed to Barack, since she's the loser what's keeping them?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

The fact that there are people like you who will use their support of Obama against them.  Like all politicians, they are looking for the easiest path out of their bind, and the animosity displayed by your bunch isn't helping.

Yes, she's supposed to accept that she lost this candidate in this election.  That's what happens when you realize that you cannot catch up and win.  Nobody's asking her to quit the game early, but cheap shots and fouls shouldn't take place - it's poor sportsmanship.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-10 12:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

you tell her lawerish, how dare she not accept your authority. The shameless hussy?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

You're really getting rather ridiculous.  Republican troll-like ridiculous.

It is not my authority, but the cold and sharp authority of Mathematics which has doomed Hillary's chances.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-10 12:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

of course, you're the voice of reason, and I'm simply ridiculous.  So, why haven't the super's all attended to your rationality? Could it be there is more than one way to look at it, more than one set of numbers, more to it than what you see?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

All the supers are not going to support one candidate. But increasingly they're endorsing Obama, with around 10 who have switched from Clinton to Obama.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 12:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

then what's the hurry ,why does she have to do her duty now?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

They are not a monolithic bloc; their own opinions and deals they have cut are as important as the popular vote totals to many.

But it's farcical to believe that by hacking away at Obama, using racial politics, you can change the minds of hundreds of them.  It is not going to happen.  Anyone who has paid attention to politics knows it isn't going to happen.  That's why the media declared the race over; they're not stupid.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-10 01:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

okay, the charge comes out, it's said, she said hard working white guys are voting for her meaning not hard working black guys. She isn't going to get the black vote, it won't happen while there is a viable black candidate. And why should black Americans not get to vote for a black candidate?  It does not make him the most qualified, it does not make that choice based on a clear eyed view of their policies and plans and solutions, but why shouldn't black Americans get to overlook their candidate's shortcoming because it would be great to have a president of color. But how's she going to talk about poorer hard working Americans voting for her when clearly a large group of poorer hard working Americans aren't?  How's she to make a case for her electibailty?  Were it not for Barack being in the contest, most all poorer hard working Americans would be for her.  And she's winning a group of fellows that normally vote for the pug, cause she's tough and she debates well and her solutions look good.  She can't speak about that?  That diminishes Barack?   That's what the NYT said.  Give it a try, tell me how she can phrase that in a way that Barack's team can't spin into fake offense.

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I don't think it's accurate to say that she's winning the group that votes Republican.  There are plenty of working-class voters who vote Dem, and plenty of them who are not voting in the Dem election this cycle.

She's winning the part of the working-class white group who vote Dem, yes.  There are many reasons for this and only some are related to the issues she champions.  

When you say 'hard-working people are voting mostly for me' you imply that everyone else isn't hard-working.  I'm not poor, and I doubt my job in front of a computer would count as 'working class'; but I bust my ass every day (and here on Saturday) to do a good job.  I work hard.  Is she saying I don't work hard?  My metric is not voting for her.

See, it's just a sloppy f'in comment on her part.  It's like Barack's 'bitter' comment.  We all know what he meant, but he said it in a dumb way.  Same thing here, and she's already apologized for saying it.  So why defend it?

by Lawyerish 2008-05-10 01:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

the reference wasn't to slacker white guys, it was because she doesn't have hard working black people, she knows that.  it's reported that those voters didn't vote for Bill, and did vote for George. The sort of democrats who haven't voted for a dem president, but do the down-tickets dems. Like a Democratic state that takes a Republican governor, or like NYC, totally dem but they vote for a pug mayor. It's amazing she's won this group of men.  Her phrasing was sloppy, but isn't that what you brought up? i was answering you, but perhaps I misunderstood?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

There's no evidence that what you posit is true; that those who are voting for Hillary didn't vote for Bill, or voted for Bush last time.  In fact, the Dem party usually carries around the same amount of white, lower-income voters as we are seeing this cycle.

It's hardly amazing that she's won the lower-income and lower-information group, for one reason only: name recognition.  Many voters pay absolutely zero attention to the process.  Those who don't are by far more likely to vote for the name they recognize.  She had an advantage to start with based on this alone.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-10 02:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

it's all over the news, the Barack counter claim is that Bill won without them so he doesn't need them either. Problem is that Bill won with the help of a third party spoiler, Perot.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

She wasn't saying you don't work hard, but I have to say that, as a person that has done both kinds of jobs, white collar jobs like ones at the computer are not nearly as difficult to do as the ones where you do physical work. I can't do those kinds of jobs any more, so am forced to work at the computer these days.

It's so much easier that many times I am astonished at the pay I get, while not breaking a sweat or hurting physically every day when I quit. It can be hard, but there really is no comparison.

That is one of the reasons that those that do the blue collar jobs don't live as long. They are expected to work through sickness, pain and without much health care. It's a whole different ball game compared to the white collar jobs.

by splashy 2008-05-11 09:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Anna,

Just curious to you too.

Have you see the little maps on the top most side of the myDD main page?

It's an electorial college prediction map.

It's continuously updated.

We've started watching it/

According to those little maps. In an electorial college matchup.

Sen.Obama v Sen. McCain?

Sen. McCain wins.

Sen. Clinton v. Sen. McCain?

Sen. Clinton wins.

Considering that the electorial college determines who's president. This is important information.

I asked about it earlier.

Supposed to be pretty acurate.

Just wondering if you'd seen it?

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

You know if she was a male candidate they would be saying the exact same thing. So if they would say it to a male candidate and a female candidate why is anything but equal treatment.

by jsfox 2008-05-10 12:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

ummmm Hart, Brown, Jackson and Kennedy to name a few recent men that had no mobbing calls to withdrawal or else be blamed for destryong the party. They were free to take things all the way to the convention floor.

by swissffun 2008-05-10 01:09PM | 0 recs
Yes, they did.

People were screaming at Kennedy not to continue to the convention.

by nklein 2008-05-10 02:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes, they did.

he didn't listen either? Neither stopped campaigning?  That means hillary is the new JFK?  (she's way better)  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:13PM | 0 recs
He's talking about Teddy Kennedy

And can't you please just make a distinction between campaigning and campaigning negatively?

by obsessed 2008-05-10 04:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

No you are wrong. This has never been said to any other candidate by the media folks, ever!

Read about it here:
http://mediamatters.org/columns/20080430 0001

It's pretty pitiful, and shows their misogyny. That kind of arrogance is only shown to women that dare to push the envelope.

by splashy 2008-05-11 10:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Why is she listening??  She could say the hell with it, I'm going to keep bashing Obama and let the votes fall where the may.  She isn't though, probably because she cares about the party and ultimately getting a Dem into the White House.  

by hootie4170 2008-05-10 12:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

she's never bashed him.  It's not her thang, some think however that campaigning on her own positives is a bash at his lesser qualifications, for some she can't do anything right, go figure.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

"Celestial Choirs"
"Change you can Xerox"
"Shame on you, Barack Obama!"
"I can win hard-working voters, white voters, but Obama can't."
"I've met the C-in-C threshold, and so has John McCain, but not Barack Obama."

Nope, she's never bashed Obama.

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-05-10 03:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

can't be trusted, do anything to win, her talons out, experience is as Clinton's wife, she's likable enough, most divisive figure, highest negatives, liar, in bed with special interests, it's all fair enough when it cuts both ways. They're each trying to win. I think he's said worse, but that's my opinion.  Only thing just said badly, of those you listed, was the hard working one, she's the only one so far who has received votes from working class white guys who are registered democrats but always vote for a pug president.  That's totally cool, but she said it badly and apologized.  I thought the others were funny.  None of it made me like him less.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Half of those quotes are made up or highly exaggerated, or taken out of context, or were said about Bill Clinton.

With this diary, you have lost all of my respect.  I actually thought we were on the same side - that this race was finally a chance to break a barrier for...  somebody.  But following Gloria Steinem's lead, you continue to pit the interests of black people against those of white women, instead of seeing a common cause.  So when Hillary Clinton uses racially charged language that is going to help no one, you're not allowed to call her out or you're only afraid of women.  Hillary Clinton is allowed to reach deep into Nixon's playbook, repeatedly, and it will either be explained or laughed away.  

Shame on you.  

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Uhm concidering what was said about her husband and his administration by folks like Rush Limbaugh?

Saying-

"Celestial Choirs"
"Change you can Xerox"
"Shame on you, Barack Obama!"
"I can win hard-working voters, white voters, but Obama can't."
"I've met the C-in-C threshold, and so has John McCain, but not Barack Obama."

Is nothing.

In the general election oh my no.

This worries me about Sen. Obama being in the general election. If this is what Team Obama thinks is terrible words. I'm not sure he'll be able to handle the likes of Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity. Those folks are tough.

And relentless.

Sen. Clinton has faced worse on a good day during her husbands administration. Not to mention what was said during the impeachment process. It wasn't just having to deal with the impeachment but also to have you husbands infidelities on the news 24/7. World wide. And yet she not only survived that and  protected her daughter,she also went on to become a Senator of New York.
Trust me all the time folks were bashing away.

That's a tough cookie.

Texas Gray Wolf,
She'd have been lucky to just have heard the things that you are saying are so terrible.

Seriously.

Oh and I'd like to add that there has been bashing. I know I've seen it here. Because of all things a fund raiser.

I couldn't for the life of me figure out why folks were so angry. There wasn't a bad thing said about Sen. Obama. Now I know it's fund raising and saying she should quit already.

Good to know.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?
Hillary Clinton had to endure a lot of ridicule and was continually bashed (Ken starr was a travesty)- but all those attacks were due to things she said and did (along with Bill).  She has played the victim forever and its getting pretty tedious, especially since she brings it to the campaign.  At this very moment there is a trial going on in Los Angeles (clinton vs paul)- NOTHING has been mentioned about that.  Obama has NEVER mentioned whitewater, monica, travelgate, failed health insurance, all the shady campaign contributions and associations....
Obama has been attacked for his associations - for the past few weeks continually and he is still standing.  He stayed with his pastor for 20 years, she stayed with Bill for longer - they're even on that.
who cares what the republicans bash him with in the fall - maybe, just maybe, he can take it, no?  
by mariannie 2008-05-10 07:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

"...who cares what the republicans bash him with in the fall - maybe, just maybe, he can take it, no?"  Marianne

From 12 dogs

Nope. Not if he can't take the "choirs of angels" comment. Nope he can't.

You asked my opinion.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-12 10:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

My point was in response to a previous comment that claimed that Clinton had never bashed Obama. Obviously that's not true. There's been campaigning back and forth on both sides. No less an authority than Bill Clinton has opined that the remarks made against either side have been minor at most.

No one's saying those are terrible words. A couple of those statements -- the C-in-C threshold one in particular -- are pretty regrettable, but they're not terrible. Nor is anything said by the Obama campaign against Clinton.

We all know things will be worse in the GE. Obama's proven himself far more than capable of responding.

And I'm not sure where you're going about your "because of all things a fund raiser". I can think of one person, who was a Clinton fund raiser, who said some truly despicable things about Obama, but I can also think of some other events that have been connected with fund raising. So, it's a little too hard to tell where you're going with that.

My point was: there's been bashing on both sides. As far as the campaigns and surrogates go, for the most part it's been pretty minor stuff, both ways (and yes there are examples on both sides of things that aren't so minor). Neither side is pure and neither side is overly evil. Claiming that Clinton has never bashed Obama is as silly as saying that Obama has never bashed Clinton.

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-05-10 08:52PM | 0 recs
Anna -

Hillary Clinton is not, in any way shape or form, acting or being treated any differently than she would be if she were male.

How can you not see that?

Sexism is very real and very bad and it's a long way from being conquered, but in Hillary's case, she has conquered it. She has transcended the gender barrier. That's something to celebrate. It doesn't mean that other future female candidates will be treated (and mistreated) with the same gender neutrality as Hillary is, but in her case, sexism is simply not germaine to the discussion.

It's time to "move on" from that issue in Hillary's case.

by obsessed 2008-05-10 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna -

gosh, I must be nuts?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna -

Can you cite an example of an attack on Hillary that's based on her gender?

by obsessed 2008-05-10 04:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna -

Are you new to this concept?  Even the pundits admit it.  I've been writing about his strategy since he first trashed her experience by joking about her experience being married to Bill. Since then she's grown talons, has become a monster, and one of his recent endorsers likened her to Glenn Close in some slasher flick.  Google it, you'll find many examples in many published articles. It's one reason women have flocked to her, like 60% of women vote for her, even pug women vote for her.  We see it, we don't like it. but he's won from it too.  I don't like it, but he can do what he likes, she's not quitting and she's not shutting up.  

by anna shane 2008-05-11 10:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Anna -

WAIT! Let's take Glenn Close.

When I made the same joke I used Rasputin. The point of the joke is to make fun of Hillary for not dropping out when, at multiple points in time, the conventional wisdom has been that she can't win.

I used Rasputin but Glenn Close is funnier because she looks more like Hillary.

The crucial key to separating real sexism from unfairly attributed bogus sexism is the underlying message. The message is that Hillary keeps coming and coming even though she should be vanquished. This is equally true of Rasputin and the Fatal Attraction woman, as well as thousands of other horror movie characters - whether they be male, female, animal or space alien.

I you want to make fun of Hillary (making fun of political candidates is "fair game", right?) you're going to choose a blonde female for your joke.

Conversely, is the infamous (but hilarious, no pun intended) "flocking to that dandy Obama like he's the second coming of Jimi Hendrix" line. Is that a racist joke?

NO - IT'S NOT RACIST. They could have said "second coming of Jesus Christ" or whatever, but it's funnier to use Hendrix because they're both black. Now "dandy" might be a legitmate gay slur, but at least we don't have to worry about that ... this election cycle! Wait til we get our first gay candidate if you want to see some fur fly. Sexism and racism are battles that are essentially already won. We just have to wait for a couple more generations to die off. "Homosexualism" has a ways to go.

But long after racism and sexism have been completely removed from our culture, black people will still have black skin and women will still look like women. These differences, if no negative stigma is attached to them, are perfectly acceptable. We don't need to outlaw the recognition that there are differences between the sexes and races - we just need to outlaw making value judgments based on those differences.

by obsessed 2008-05-11 02:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna -

not what you say, we're a lot of nobody's, who cares what any of us say, but a congressman who just endorsed him, in the usual way of basing his support for Barack on Hillary hate, made that comparison.  I don't know about you, but I thought it was sexist and I was offended. I really hate this stuff.  we had to come up with ways to mock Barack without in any way disrespecting his race, and I'd think it would be possible to mock Hillary without offending all of us (not speaking for all all of us, I mean those of us who really don't like it and who additionally always vote and who donate to the party and have been lifelong party members, and maybe like me, being older than HIllary?)  

by anna shane 2008-05-11 04:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna -

in the usual way of basing his support for Barack on Hillary hate,

What was the Hillary hate part?

Remember - in a truly sexism-free world, female politicians are going to be treated like their male counterparts - in other words, very rudely! The fact that Hillary is subject to the same harsh attacks as male politicians is an indication of how far she's transcended being defined by her gender.

There's no doubt that Hillary is attacked viciously, and often unfairly, but please let's isolate the sexist ones from the others to avoid unfairly inflaming women voters.

For example, Hillary is criticized for attacking Obama on such issues as guns and bowling. That's counter-gender, agreed? In the Odd Couple relationship of Hill & Barry, she's the one exhibiting traditionally male character flaws (rude, aggressive, macho) while he's accused of exhibiting traditionally female attributes (wants to "talk to" Iran, full of hope instead of rational problem solving, not tough enough, etc.)

Anna - the reason you're catching so much flack in this post is the irony of using sexism as an argument in the Obama/Hillary debate. They're turned the whole thing on its ear, so the sexism claims ring hollow.

I admit that a Hillary candidacy would be a huge positive for the war against sexism, but sexism has nothing to do with the success of her campaign to this point.

Let me put it another way. Hillary has received more support from female voters than she would have if she were male, but she hasn't lost any significant amount of support from male voters as a result of being female.

by obsessed 2008-05-11 04:45PM | 0 recs
Hey Anna

Have I got a thread for you!

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/11/1855 59/861

A truly legitimate target for you. Go!

by obsessed 2008-05-11 05:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna -

Hmmmmm I read this and the first thing that came to mind?

The "b" word. Calling Sen. Clinton the "b" word.

Not exactly polite calling a US Senator the "b" word.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 06:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

If Michigan and Florida can "count" without either candidate campaigning there, why not these last states too?

by Adam B 2008-05-10 07:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

That's what the remaining SDs are saying? You have a direct, attributed quote for that? How's this -- if the SDs really wanted this thing to be over and really thought that Obama was the better nominee for the GE, there is nothing stopping them from ending it. They have the power to do so. Per Craig Crawford:

If Democratic superdelegates truly want Hillary Rodham Clinton to quit the nomination race, why don't they just publicly endorse Barack Obama and get it over with? There are more than enough of them to make up the difference needed to give him the winning majority.

- snip -

Ever since losing the Ohio Primary two months ago, the Obama campaign has been fanning the vapors that a victory-clinching mass of superdelegates are waiting in the wings to endorse him. Now would seem to be the time to prove it -- before Clinton wins lopsided majorities in upcoming states like West Virginia next week and again revs up her momentum.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/200 8/05/superdelegates-can-end-this-no.html

The truth is that there are still a number of people who have serious doubts about Obama and his prospects in the GE -- his tanking numbers with white males isn't helping anything.

Obama's support among white male voters, the most tightly contested bloc over the primary season, has slipped. He did well early on in states such as Virginia, where he took 52% of the white male vote to Clinton's 47%. But this week, Obama lost, 58% to 42%, among white men in Indiana and 55% to 42% in North Carolina. He has won majorities of white male voters in 10 states since January, but Clinton bested him in 13 others, including the critical northern battlegrounds of Ohio and Pennsylvania.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la- na-race10-2008may10,0,5432711,full.story

Sorry, but this isn't over, not for the SDs and especially not for the voters. Wishing it won't make it so.

by Iphie 2008-05-10 02:13PM | 0 recs
Yes, the focus should be on McCain

That is what people have been saying.  As we get closer to November, we need to stop the circular firing squad and start going after the Republican nominee, otherwise we are doing Karl Rove's job for him.

by protothad 2008-05-10 04:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

You have some serious issues with men. I suggest you seek counceling.

by venician 2008-05-10 11:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Do I?  I wonder where that comes from. Is it possible we've never had a female president, or that only a tiny percentage of high paid power jobs are held by women, or that women still earn a fraction of men's earnings, or that more violence is committed against women and by men then any other demographic, or that legislation that men like isn't what women think is most important, for example I want universal pre-school and education is my priority and health care for adults who are sometimes parents as well as children, because I'm a mom?  There are some very decent men, but they aren't telling the women to shut up.    

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Clinton won't fix the historical problems between the genders. And a liberal, progressive male candidate will always do more for women than a conservative, right-wing female (and yes, there are some out there). This notion that men=bad and women=good is absolutely ridiculous and frankly offensive.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 11:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

no one will, they're not fixable. But isn't it great that so many working Americans have accepted that a woman can be a boss. In that why they're far ahead of their "more educated betters."  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

The huge logical problem with your statement is that you're assuming low-education voters voted for Clinton solely because she's a woman and they could see her in a "boss role", and people that voted for Obama voted that way solely because they couldn't accept a woman as President. That's beyond ridiculous.

Again, you're internalizing your own frustration and hate and projecting this singular factor of gender and making it the sole reason for everything. That's disturbing and it makes any other rational feminist look that much worse.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 11:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Yeah, I don't think they're racists if that's what you mean.  I think they are ahead of some of the more powerful Americans in that they can accept that a woman can be in charge. We've come a long way baby, but we have a ways to go.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

You're still doing it.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

OMG I'm still doing it, even after I've been instructed?  Oh, the shamelessness of me?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

If you want to bury your head in the sand and scream sexism over every imagined slight, that's fine. But don't pretend you're actually grasping what I'm saying.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

how could I, a brilliant mind like yours that can see right through me,  Unthinkable.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Your antagonism is showing. Its hard to fight for equality when you're randomly swinging against anything or anyone that doesn't fit your narrow mindset. Tell me how that kind of statement presents a positive, intelligent, rational image of feminism?

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I'm antagonist now? How bad of me, I mean, how dare I mock you, the very true all real voice for women (hey, we each get to speak)

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Keep proving my point, please.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

You're point? That I'm hurting women? Is that it?  I'm just making fun of you, upstate girl, you're funny.  My point is we're all allowed to talk and we don't need anyone's permission. But, go ahead, I won't mock you again, you can have the 'last word' now, go for it, make it memorable.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I don't really have anything to add, I've said it already and your repeated hysteria and antagonism only serves to prove my point. Your attitude sucks and its horribly detrimental to the feminist movement. Compound that with the fact you can't even back up your opinions with fact and have to resort to mockery presents you as a prototypical "angry irrational female" that misogynists have been trying to paint our gender with for years. But, if you'd rather be a stereotype, no one's going to be able to talk you out of it. You'd apparently much rather revel in your own anger than calm down and think rationally about an issue.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Obama and his brilliant, powerful, and articulate partner Michelle will be extremely effective in their advocacy of the feminist movement. I don't see how anyone could doubt that.

McCain uses the c-word in reference to his own wife and chuckled at the "how do we beat the bitch" comment from a supporter.

Is there a choice?

(and there won't be "choice" much longer after McCain is elected)

by obsessed 2008-05-10 04:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Anna Shane

Stop baiting this "baby girl" right this minute.

Upstate.

You're getting played. I'm reading this and mercy love. This girl is so getting played. It's okay. We all get played. I have. I'll bet Anna Shane has. But reading over your shoulders? LOL

Stop Anna Shane, whoever you are or is it whomever, it's just not nice.

LOL

Upstate, When I was little and stupid. We had this cat that was a fantastic mouser. One day out in the shed, we heard a commotion. Went out to find the cat looking in a old basket. One of those kind you see at produce stands. Anyway. That cat was looking intently in that basket. So we go look over in that basket. There was this field mouse tryin' to get out. Anyway the cat had been swatting at it with its paws. Playing with it. Then whosh. Cat ate it.

Been my experience that cats about always play with their food before they eat it.

I'm older now. Sometimes I'm thinkin' that cats and folks on the internet have alot in common. LOL

I don't know either of you but come on Anna Shane be nice.

Upstate seems to be  very passionate about feminism. Seriously. LOL

Mercy.

LOL

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Either you just outed Anna as a troll, or you really have a poor concept of feminism.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 07:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Have you answered my question about who Johnnie Carr and Carol M Braun is yet?

LOL.

By the by. Could you define feminism in a sentence? Or maybe two?

:D

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 07:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Civil rights advocate and Illinois State Representative, respectively. Do you have a point? Or having fun ignoring my comments in favor of pop quizzes, for some reason?

Feminism isn't this bullshit "men are evil, support women no matter what" nonsense, that's for sure.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 07:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Upstate girl you wrote:

"Civil rights advocate and Illinois State Representative, respectively. Do you have a point? Or having fun ignoring my comments in favor of pop quizzes, for some reason?

Feminism isn't this bullshit "men are evil, support women no matter what" nonsense, that's for sure."

My response:

That's all you know about these two women. You are a feminist correct? That's all you know?

Ms. Johnnie Carr,

She was a contemporary of Rev. King when folks called grown men boy and told women they had to stand if favor of men. A true feminist. She fought for equality for us all. She continued to work for the civil rights movement almost up until she died in her mid nineties.
"look back but move forward" I think I got that quote of her's right. I'm going on memory here.
And all you got was a "wiki quicky" that she was a civil rights activist. She was a female in the thick of things Upstate. As a feminist I thought you would like to know abit about Ms Carr.

And also know about Ms. Braun.

Ms. Braun was one of the 11 folks up for Democratic nominee in 2004's Presidential race. One of only 2 African American's AND the only female in the running. This was before Sen. Clinton. I had go looking for information about Ms. Braun because I wasn't going to be finding it on the news. Or from feminists or the Democratic Party. I thought that was ironic especially since she wasn't covered by feminist reporters. But you haven't looked very close. In addition to Ms. Braun being a US Senator from Sen. Obama's homestate of Illinois, she also has a first attached to her bio. If you had actually taken the time to read you would know this.

What did Carol M. Braun do that was historically important? I'll bet you can't tell me. Not right off top of your head or without another trip to wikipedia.

She is an  female and this was a big deal. I should think as a feminist you would want to know this.

Feminism is about equality. The feminist and the civil rights activist both fight for equal treatment under the law.

You go find out what it is Carol M. Braun was first at. Oh and  a quick question. You do know the difference between the Senate and the House of Representatives.

I have to ask. Ms Braun wasn't a Representative in the House of Representatives. She was a Senator in the US Senate. But you got the state correct. She is from the same state as Sen. Obama.

Now I hope you have a good day. Glad I saw this comment before I left. I didn't want to think I was being rude and ignoring your comments. It's just there are SO many of them to read.

Good night and happy reading.
Happy Mother's Day to your mother.

Don't forget to tell her that you now know more about history and famous African American feminists than you did the last time you talked to her.

Then get some sleep these boards are no place to spend all night.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 10:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Traditionally, conservative voters have never had a problem with a woman in power, as long as that woman belonged to a dynasty of rulers.

-- see Elizabeth I of England
-- see Catherine the Great

If you really want progress you ought choose a woman that made her own way to power -- a woman like Thatcher or Merkel or Tymoshenko.

by Aris Katsaris 2008-05-10 12:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Thatcher was conservative, no?

by mefck 2008-05-10 01:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Are you calling Hillary a "conservation right-wing female?"

by portia9 2008-05-10 12:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

yes, that what she called her, and it seems that I'm harming women's futures, according to her. Wild?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

No, actually I didn't. You guys really aren't that good with reading comprehension.

I said there are many women who are right-wing, conservative, etc. that would not make a good choice for a progressive Democratic elected position. This concept that a woman needs to be in elected position simply because she's a woman ignores her own intelligence, personality, and beliefs - in fact, it marginalizes them according to their gender, which is what I thought the equality movement was all about eradicating.

But hey, if you just want to see any woman in power regardless of her politics or her intelligence, then knock yourself out.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

like some sanctimony with your righteousness? No, got enough?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

The irony of your statement is astounding. Please, don't do the feminist movement any favors by touting yourself as an example.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 01:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

"And a liberal, progressive male candidate will always do more for women than a conservative, right-wing female"

Uhmm-mmm-mmm.  Well. This could explain why you couldn't tell me who Carol M. Braun is.

You were looking at "conservative right-wing" females.

I didn't know that Sen. Clinton has become a Conservative Republican. Fancy that. When did that happen? I knew she was a female but heck I thought she was a Democrat.

Mercy the things you learn.

My, my, my.

Now about who Braun and Carr are?

Do you know yet?

If you've been active politically for the last 6 years or come from a 3rd generation democratic family you should know who she is.

Here's a hint. Think presidential.

And ground breaking.

And firsts.

Yep.

And don't forget Ms. Carr. Her folks didn't graduate from Cornell and I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have been thrilled that you were rude to Anna Shane but she sure did put a mark on the world.

Keep looking. You can surprise your second generation Democratic mom with the knowledge tomorrow for Mother's Day.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I didn't realize I had to take a test. Here's Carol Braun's wikipedia link, if you're so inclined. And again, for the reading-impaired, I never called Clinton a right-wing candidate. She's not. But there are right-wing women who do not support reproductive rights, are pro-war, and otherwise hold non-progressive, non-female-friendly political viewpoints. And any progressive male candidate would be a better choice than those women for political office. Are you disagreeing with that statement?

I still fail to see exactly what point you're trying to make. You're certainly not contradicting mine - you'd actually have to address it in order to do so.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay ?

But Upstate.

I don't need the wiki link. I already know who she is. I know because I voted in the last presidential election. Heck I don't get my info from wiki either. I wanted to know what YOU knew about the woman. LOL You're funny.

Did you know who Ms. Braun was before you wikied her? How about Ms. Carr.

I know them not from wiki. If you read her bio you know that Carol M. Braun? Was one of the 11 posible choices for the Democratic candidate for president in 2004. Highly qualified African American female. She got no play. In 2004. You are an expert at knowing what feminism is? You don't know the only female candidate for the Democratic nomination in 2004? That's funny. You are a third generation Democrat? And you are going to again lecture me on what feminism is and it isn't? Aren't you?

You don't know a thing about me and yet you are the expert on what I know or don't know about feminism? Since I don't know you, I thought I'd ask what you know? See what kind of feminist you are. See?

You haven't told me who Johnnie Carr is either.

Hint.
Very famous in the civil rights movement.

Worked as an activist up until she was in her mid90's. Almost until she died.

A contemporary of Rev. King and Rosa Parks. Well thought of by blacks and whites in this country. You can find her obit any where on line. I imagine you can wiki that too. I think she passed on in February. I'd have to look it up.

These are women who help me define what feminism is. They are strong women who kept going even when the men folks told them to step aside. It was a man who told Ms. Parks she'd have to stand rather than sit on that bus. Yep.

But that's just me. Some long in the tooth old fart.

By the way that little bio came off top of my head. Didn't have to go to wikipedia.

I could have answered the question just as soon as I asked it.

Could you?

And you want to tell me what feminism is.

I'll take the answer from the lady who fought for her seat on the bus. Or the other woman who fought for her son's right to attend school.

Not asking more than their share but asking what was their right as a citizen of the United States. Black, white, rich, poor, man OR woman. We are all "...created equal and endowed by our creator with(I'm doing this off top of my head may have the word with wrong) certain inalienable rights. Among those rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."

I have this memorized UpStategirl. It's the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence. To me it is place, even if it took a while, that talks about feminism. Every time I recite it to myself, to keep my brain active LOL, I remember to include women in the statement even though in the original it just says the word "men". You see equality is about equal. Equal rights. Equal pay for equal work. If I'm qualified to be a fireman and I can do the job? I get paid the same with the same benefits. Anyway.

If you really knew feminism and respected it's past? You wouldn't have been so dismissive. Respect yer elders. Didn't you at least want to know my experiences "back in the day" ?  At least from a historical perspective?

LOL I'm an old dawg and I don't know everything but I do know that alittle respect for ones elders is never a bad thing.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here.
But on first reading you came off as rude and arrogant. But I'm sure I have done the same. So live and learn.

Just a thought.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 08:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay ?

Respect is earned, not granted due to age, gender, race, or anything else. Anna was extremely disrepectful and polarizing in her diary. I'll respect people based on their actions, not because they're claiming on an internet message board that they've been around the block - especially when they're as self-righteous and arrogant as you're acting.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 08:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay ?

lol

And yet I am polite.

I won't say,"Oh she's young"

I was taught to respect one's elders. You obviously disagree.

But I'll go with respect is earned and not a factor of age.

And I'll do the same. Why should I care what you have to say? Why should I respect you? You're right I don't know you. But here's a little secret. Now you know who Johnnie Carr is. Alittle. And who Carol M. Braun is. Alittle. Unlike you I have educated you. About strong African American women in politics. I have taught you about history. And I have improved your mind. All the while being insulted by you. And I kept my sense of humor too. Pretty good.

What have you taught me?

Well? You've taught me that you don't like me. Or Anna Shane for that matter. You don't know either one of us from Adam's house cat. Yet you know all about me and my view on feminism. You have taught me that you are probably quick to anger and quick to judge. Maybe. Could be a difficult night. We all have those.

As for your arguement that things have changed for women in politics. You might be interested to know what a family member just told me. About what they over heard about Sen. Clinton from two fellas at the video store just tonight. About how they were saying women were too emotional to become president. About how if they had that "time of the month" they might start a war. These were grown men saying this. In this era of enlighted men and women. I've heard it before. So guess there are folks who really do have a problem with women being president based on gender. I thought things were different in your world Upstate? If I had been there I would have reminded them that I think she's already been through menopause so I don't think that hormones are an issue. But I don't think I'd have called them sexist. You might have "enlighted". (that was sarcasm) I educate. That's the other thing I learned.

You gave my family a good laugh Upstate. My SO just hooted when he read what you wrote. Me not a feminist? LOL That's going to provide no end of amusement in my family for the coming days.

Hope you have a good evening and nice Mother's Day Upstate. Kiss your mom.

Don't forget to tell her that you know how to compare apples and oranges. And how to insult people you've never laid eyes on.

She'll be so proud.

Now I'm going to bed. Have fun.

12 dogs.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 09:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

"And a liberal, progressive male candidate will always do more for women than a conservative, right-wing female"

This conversation just gets funnier by the minute.

Upstate girl,

I want you to take this entire quote and show your mama tomorrow. Seriously. Show her. And then you with serious face ask her what's wrong with this quote.

Here's a hint. It's the "conservative right wing" = Sen. Clinton part.

Seriously. Go ask her. I'll bet she'll just laugh and laugh and laugh.

LOL

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 07:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

What did you say?

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-10 11:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

It's all the bizarre "castration" stuff.  

I'm reminded of Marcia Pappas' rambling and subliterate letter when the primary took a bad turn for Clinton, for good, that it was all a "gang bang", and that Hillary needed to stay in as a "sacrificial lamb".

It's at this point that you step away from the poster and realize that they are, at least at the moment, becoming unhinged.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

castrating woman and 'diminish' are one and the same?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Feminism does not mean keeping your boot on the necks of African Americans, no matter how much you wish it did.  

You second-wavers cannot pass into irrelevancy fast enough.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

wow, such a concept. If that's how you see things I don't think I'm going to change your mind.  

by anna shane 2008-05-11 10:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

his only real chance is to bully her out of the race

So, he leads in delegates and his only real chance at winning is bulling Clinton out of the race?  Really???

by mefck 2008-05-10 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

yes, his delegate lead isn't a win, he needs enough delegates and he hasn't reached that level.   by real chance I mean sure thing.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

What you say here and in your diary are two completely different things.  Which one is right?

by mefck 2008-05-10 02:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

explain the question? Which two things are different?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Having a "real chance" to win (which means to essentially have any chance) versus being a sure thing.

by mefck 2008-05-10 02:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

of course he has an actual chance to win, but he hasn't yet won, that's what they're claiming and it isn't true.  Real is in the here and now and that's only if she gives up, it's actual regarding when and if he wins more votes and/or gets more supers and/or crosses the line, but even then she'd have to concede, she'd have the right to take it to the convention floor. No one's sure if she would or wouldn't, we don't know, it'll depend on the outcome of the next primaries and what happens vis a vis Florida and Michigan. But he maintains his actual chance until he's either won or lost.  Real as in a bird in the hand not real as opposed to unreal, or no chance, that would be nutty. and I'll be glad to vote for him if he's our nom.  I think he's cool.  Sorry if that's garbled.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Can you provide proof that Obama's supporters (outside of some chowder heads on the blogosphere) are trying to prevent Hillary from Campaigning?

Otherwise, this diary is another Obama hit piece and Anna you should be A"shane"d of yourself.

by chewie5656 2008-05-10 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

you haven't noticed? There is the NYT editorial yesterday, and Bob Herbert's column today.  That's like two for you out of hundreds, try googling it,  it's all over cable news, she can stay if she doesn't further diminish him is the line, like what's happened so far is her fault, and she can prevent him from being diminished by not campaigning.  Two is enough though to make my case.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

You've misrepresenting both of those pieces of writing. I haven't heard a single person frame it that way, except for you.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 12:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

you're joking, right?  I'm breaking news here?  I don't think so.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

You're breaking something.  And please tell me what Bob Herbert has to do with the Obama campaign.

I am going to refrain from the obvious speculation with the quick note that you wouldn't, since this primary seems to be an exercise in pure symbolic performance art.

Barack Obama is on stage as a giant phallus attempting to bludgeon Hillary Clinton, represented as a pair of shears.  You'll let me know how it ends, won't you?

by Mostly 2008-05-10 03:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

it's my opinion that he's running as the great male hope. But he's better than that, although I don't credit Kerry or Kennedy with knowing when they recruited him to beat her, they could have given us a much worse guy than Barack. I like him, he plays down and dirty, but if we're to beat pugs in November and if he's the nom, he'll have to.  He's had his wings clipped with Hillary, cause she's a dem and a girl and so he's had to hold back.   He didn't invent misogyny, but I have yet to hear one of his high end endorsers just endorse him for his great qualifies, it's always about Hillary, bad bad Hillary, she did this or that. I imagine that isn't pleasing to him either he can't be liked just for himself, only in comparison to bad HIllary.  Now that he's lost his momentum and is polling more poorly and she's been at the same time gaining momentum and polling great, they're trying to shut it down, and if if they can't make her quit they'll try to make her shut up. Neither will work, she's in it to win.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

The Obama campaign is not trying to shut down the primary.  It isn't in their power to do so.

And who's kidding who?  Hillary Clinton's last, best, and most desperate argument is that she is the great white hope of the Democratic party.  That white people will not vote for a black man.  She's hinted at it, her campaign has hinted at it more strongly, Ed Rendell has actually said it, and a lot of her supporters would never have it any other way.

Anyway, I encourage you to read Ted Kennedy's endorsement speech.  It didn't mention Hillary Clinton in any way, except positively.  "She's a great candidate, Obama is better".  Then specifics.

Read it, if you have the courage of your convictions.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Helllooooooo!!!!!!!

by Mostly 2008-05-10 09:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I don't think Hillary is a racist. If someone were going to vote white, they'd vote McCain, most racists are also sexists.  But many sexists aren't racist.  I thought Ted's speech was offensive. None of his "big ticket" supporters managed to endorse him without basing in on how bad she is. If I were him I'd feel insulted, and he probably does feel insulted, but he's in it to win too, they're both trying to win.  Ted was his first backer, encouraged him with Kerry to run.  Their state went for her.  They backed him long before she was accused by them of playing to racism, Now ,why would she do that, to drive up the African American vote for her?  How could this have helped her, it helped him for her to be perceived this way though, no? I don't blame Obama for his ambition or for the way he's run his campaign against her, which he's still doing, I just heard his response to the oil problem saying, she's been in office for x years and this is the first she's said about it.  That's his campaign.  I can live with it, can you?  

by anna shane 2008-05-11 09:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

First of all, if you're going to write a diary like this, it helps to provide examples or link to evidence.

Second, said evidence (for example Herbert's column) shouldn't be misrepresented.  What Bob is saying to today is that Hillary is basically playing the race card, by saying "He's black, white's aren't going to vote for him."  In fact one of her surrogates Carole Simpson said this on CNN.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sBEz4k-VoVY

I agree with Bob.  These are basically Rovian tactics used in 2004, instead this time the wedge issue that's dividing the country isn't gay marriage.  Hillary is pushing race as an issue to divide the country.  If she continues to do this, she should drop out, because all this does is divide our party and our country.

Hillary should be a"shane"d!!!

by chewie5656 2008-05-10 01:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

and Bob agrees with you and neither of you is in charge of Hillary. She is being bullied, by Bob Herbert and not for the first time, but she's not paying attention to you, she's paying attention to the primary and to world issues and domestic ones, and she's running a tough campaign. She offered to debate Barack on the back of a flatbed truck so that he could both debate and connect with the people, wasn't that amusing? He ought to have done it, would have been a kick, he would have seemed like a fun guy if he'd taken her up on it.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Translation: Hillary has every right to race-bait all she wants.  She'll do it into her 80s and if anyone comments on it, they are governed by primal castration fears.

They are also thugs.

I personally think her quote was disgraceful.  Must be my castration fear.  Castration castration castration.  You'd never know I actually voted for her.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 03:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Hilary doesn't race bait.  She's not complaining either. I'm not either, I'm just blogging the truth as I see it.  You think I ought to shut up and go away?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Oh, you want to play that game.  Okay:

Why are you trying to censor me, Anna Shane?  I'm going to speak out no matter how you try to strong-arm me!

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Women have been told to shut up and stand by the man right or wrong for far too long. HIllary is giving us all an idea of how a woman can seek a power job, by working hard, knowing the most, making the most alliances, and keeping her eye on the ball. If Barack can't take the heat, he should drop out, not insist she shut up.  Today she released a policy statement on Lebanon. Has any one else noticed Lebanon lately, or Sadr City? Not to worry, Hillary has, and she's got our backs.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:33AM | 0 recs
Sexism?

Why are you trying to turn this into a sexism issue?  Our party doesn't want the person that came in second to contine attacking the likely nominee.  It's that simple, and it has nothing to do with her gender.

by map 2008-05-10 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

let's see, she's being bullied by the media and told to do her duty? If that's not sexist, I don't know sexism.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

Any candidate in her position would be expected to concede.  Just study political history. It's the norm for the candidate who is mathematically unable to catch up in delegates to quit.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 11:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

tell yourself that, one is ahead in delegates one is ahead in the popular vote, there are more contests, this is a first, and you think it's her duty to concede. Well, just look at the rest of the super delegates all flocking to him en masse. No, they're not? Maybe they think it isn't already over either. It makes sense for the smack down man to want her gone, but she's not going and she's not going to shut up either. IF he wants it he'll have to really win it, go out there and get more votes, start appealing to the demographic he'll need to win the GE, put a game plan forth that is more than "I won more delegates," that one isn't working, time to try something new.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

Sorry, but hillary is NOT ahead in popular votes.

by venician 2008-05-10 12:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

so you say, but there is no universal agreement and anyway not everyone's voted yet.  I guess that must be the hurry?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

Doesn't matter what the popular vote is.  The rule is to select a candidate based upon delegates.  That's why when you watch the convention, they say "the great state of Texas pledges its __ delegates to the next President of the United States...." and not "the great state of Texas pledges its 798,086 votes to the next President of the United States...."

by mefck 2008-05-10 12:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

at the risk of repeating myself, have you seen the remaining super delegates all rush to Obama and put him over the top? No? that's because they haven't.  He's still trying to get them, and he's working at it.  He knows he hasn't won. He knows he might not win if he's lost his momentum and polls badly against McCain and isn't seen as likely to beat him and if she has the majority of real votes cast by real people.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:19PM | 0 recs
Supers are rushing to him

He has gotten 21 supers in the past week.  And yesterday they came at a pace of 8.  They are rushing to him.  But go on with your point.

by nklein 2008-05-10 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Supers are rushing to him

both are getting more, he's got more than she and he's now ahead of her in supers, but by your reasoning we all know she's lost so there is no reason to endorse her and all of them would rush to him, as the purported winner. Since that hasn't happened, and both are still picking up endorsements, i'd say the race isn't over.  Sorry.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:57PM | 0 recs
This is the first time the press has call for it

It is not true that men have been asked to drop out by the press. Read about it here:
http://mediamatters.org/columns/20080430 0001

"Here's another first: the press's unique push to get a competitive White House hopeful to drop out of the race. It's unprecedented.

Looking back through modern U.S. campaigns, there's simply no media model for so many members of the press to try to drive a competitive candidate from the field while the primary season is still unfolding.

Until this election cycle, journalists simply did not consider it to be their job to tell a contender when he or she should stop campaigning. That was always dictated by how much money the campaign still had in the bank, how many votes the candidate was still getting, and what very senior members of the candidate's own party were advising.

In this case, Howard Dean, the head of the Democratic National Committee, said he was "dumbfounded" by public demands for Clinton to drop out last month. (He now wants one of the candidates to quit after the final June 3 primary.) Yet lots of pundits have suggested that in a neck-and-neck campaign in which neither candidate will likely secure the nomination based on pledged delegates, Sen. Hillary Clinton must drop out before all the states have had a chance to vote. "

by splashy 2008-05-11 10:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

Why is it sexist?  A man in the same position would be told the same thing: to know his role.

by Lawyerish 2008-05-10 11:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

would he?  Only if he'd been first 'feminized' and he'd know he'd been insulted.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:24PM | 0 recs
Anna
What nonsense this is. Is there something wrong with you? Do you teach your nieces and daughters this female-victimization male bashing fanatical garbage? And yes it does seem like you have serious issues with men.
There is nothing wrong with vehemently supporting a female candidate, but why do you feel the need to try and emasculate men in the process? Does it make you feel more female? Red lipstick does it for me. Does it make you feel like a tough girl?Well, you can be and feel rough, tough and aggressive all you like without having to be insulting and aggressive to others. Or is respect to 'girly' a trait for 'mature' hrc supporters? Pathetic.
by april34fff 2008-05-10 12:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna

this is funny, I write a diary about how Hillary is being told that she must not further diminish Barack by campaigning and most of the comments tell me to shut up.  Men can't be emasculated, they're men, no one has that power. They can feel emasculated if someone doesn't respect them, some can anyway, and then they can blame some woman who didn't show proper respect or whatever they wanted that would make them feel whole and complete. I mock people who think they're so smart they can tell me about me, or so powerful they can tell to shut up and i'd obey, because I think they are very funny and are perhaps asking to be mocked.  Maybe noticed I'd mocked someone else and wanted a turn?  I mean, who knows why.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna

"Men can't be emasculated, they're men, no one has that power. They can feel emasculated if someone doesn't respect them, some can anyway, and then they can blame some woman who didn't show proper respect or whatever they wanted that would make them feel whole and complete."

This statement is a classic example of why your brand of "feminism" is so distasteful. Equality does not depend on dragging down the other gender - period. If you want to fight your own private war, so be it. The rest of us - men and women - are learning to work together to be mutually respectful. This is a concept you may need to work on.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 01:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna

you're sooo funny. One piece of advise though - don't ever change?  For me?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna

What's amusing? The fact that equality can be gained without tearing down the other party? I'm sorry you find that funny, but its apparent if you think that statement is amusing rather than self-evident that you're still in a different era. The world has moved on.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna

your problem in reasoning is that you accept that she can tear him down. That's sexist, on the surface and actually. That's the castrating women meme, the woman who can't bear to let a man be a man and must diminish him and feminize him.  She's regularly accused of that.  But he's a manly man, and he  makes sure we all know he's a real man, and he's in no danger of being emasculated by Hillary, his wife maybe, but then he'd be glad about it.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna

What? Its sexist to say that a woman can say things that are derogatory and unflattering - and untrue? News to me.

This mindset that its us against them when it comes to gender is outdated and frankly ridiculous.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 03:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna

has he been accused of tearing her down?  Of course not, she's a woman already.  I fully understand that you don't get it and I appreciate your passion, even though you're quite wrong.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna

This doesn't even make any sense. Is your attitude really that women are automatically behind and cannot be "torn down" because they've already been torn down by virtue of being born a woman? That's a defeatist attitude at best and an outdated, us against them approach towards gender relations at worst.

I know its hard to believe, but the generation of women that have grown up with the opportunities afforded to us by previous generations just don't have this background of antagonism. Its not there. We thank your generation for that. But at the same time, we're not going to continue to perpetuate the same mindset because its not the same situation. I'm sorry if you feel like this is disrespectful, but its simply reality. Times have changed.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna

we're all torn down, it's a condition of life, it's often men who don't want to see that and some women who don't want them to either. It's not a girl concept, it isn't said about women, because guys don't tend to see us as whole to start with and we don't as often have that illusion either.  

by anna shane 2008-05-11 09:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Anna

Obviously, you are a bitter and hateful person who sees sexism and misogny around every corner. You can stay angry and loathesome and the rest of us (the wonderful males included) are going to go on with our lives. I for one am going to revel in my femininity on this Saturday nite, with a little black dress, Prada pumps and my long red hair flowing through the wind in my convertible.

Enjoy your miserable life..but stop trying to add a dose of misery to everyone else's.

by april34fff 2008-05-10 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Anna

And they said irony is dead. does this mean disco will be back too?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

It's called 'politics'.  Was it sexism when they told Huckabee to drop out?

by map 2008-05-10 11:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

I don't recall anyone telling him to drop out, but I'm quite certain he was never told to know his place, or to do his duty to the winner. And McCain actually won, he had enough votes all on his own. Barack hasn't passed that mark and seems he can't.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

He'll get there with KY and OR and like every other candidate who has clinched the nomination, he'll say that he's done so then.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 12:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

He'll win when and if he gets enough supers to take him over the line and if Hillary then concedes. Until then no one's won.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

Sorry but Huckabee wasn't even close to McCain in the Republican Primary. Really that's not going to fly.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 05:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

Quit playing the sexism card for something like this. She's expected to do what is best for the Democratic party, and that role is required for any second-place finisher, regardless of gender.

Honestly, as a woman, its frankly disgusting to see someone slap the sexism label on this situation. Talk about crying wolf. This kind of overreaction makes it that much harder for real problems of sexism to be taken seriously. You're not helping.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 11:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

oh, that lack of irony. She's expected to do her duty, to know her place.  He says she's lost so she's supposed to believe that and bow down before the master who tells her what she needs to know. And I'm disgusting for writing about it.  Isn't there a more offensive word you could choose for me, I'm disgusting? how bad of me, but that won't shut me up.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

No, you're clearly overreacting and its embarrassing. I didn't call you disgusting, I called your statement disgusting, and it is.

This isn't a matter of male oppression, for god's sake. There's more than enough legitimate examples of that globally. The fact that you're hyperbolic enough to even try and paint this situation as a male vs female power struggle is laughable, frankly, and when zealots of any stripe cross the line into that kind of situation that makes anyone else that subscribes to the same philosophy that the zealot claims to champion that much harder to take seriously.

If you're this inflamed about sexism and gender inequality, direct your efforts towards where they'll actually do some good. Quit blasting the sexism airhorn over issues that frankly have nothing to do with it.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

it's attempted power suppression and it isn't going to work.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

"Attempted power suppression"? What kind of evidence do you have for such a damning indictment? Its that kind of overreactive hyperbole that causes people to roll their eyes when feminist organizations correctly point out real issues of gender bias. You make a mockery out of the entire movement.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

the power of the anti-Hillary media and some Obama supporters, trying to make her quit.  She won't.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

"Anti-Hillary media" - opinion, no facts to back it up. No evidence whatsoever of some organized or even perceptual opposition to a Clinton presidency based on her gender.

"Some Obama supporters" - completely vague statement that could cover anyone from a single blog poster to the highest superdelegate. Again, no proof.

If you're going to wave that kind of accusation around, you'd better come with some proof.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 01:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

oh, I better, huh, or you'll do what?  (you're so funny). By the by, there have been thousands of pieces on anti-Hillary media bias, it's at the level of received wisdom now, it's, like, accepted?

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Sexism?

Then it shouldn't be hard for you to find proof to back up your statement, especially one as serious as implying there's a serious organizational effort behind keeping Clinton from the nomination because of her gender.

My statement of "you better" solely referred to the fact that people that make hugely broad and ridiculous statements tend to be seen as irrational at the very least if they don't provide proof to back up their statements. However, since you've already shown that you're eager and willing to jump to conclusions and take every statement in the most personally offensive way possible, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised you latched onto this one as well.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 01:53PM | 0 recs
Here's proof that there is an organized

Effort to get her to quit, by the press.
http://mediamatters.org/columns/20080430 0001

Read and learn some history.

by splashy 2008-05-11 10:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

As a woman, your gender identification with Clinton has severely damaged your ability for rational analysis. Please quit dragging the gender that you and I both share through the mud like this.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 11:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Gosh you know all about me, how can you see into me so clearly and know me more than I know myself? What a brilliant person must you be, and not at all sanctimonious and hectoring.  Thanks.  We all get to speak for ourselves, or haven't you heard?  But you must think my words are very powerful if they can 'drag down' my sex.  Hint: dragging down my sex is soooo over.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 12:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Anger: the next step in the grieving process

"Whenever one's identity and social order face the possibility of destruction, there is a natural tendency to feel angry, frustrated, helpless, and/or hurt. The volatile reactions of terror, hatred, resentment, and jealousy are often experienced as emotional manifestations of these feelings.

by venician 2008-05-10 12:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

charming, but I'm actually having fun. If barack really wins I'll vote for him, but he'll have to actually win, not win by media coup.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

If you need a number for a good therapist, just ask.

by venician 2008-05-10 01:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

No, but you're making anyone else that subscribes to feminist ideals look like an idiot by your claiming this as a legitimate gender discrimination issue.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

where did I make that claim?  Did you read my diary?  She isn't quitting so the power plays aren't working.  They're ineffective, if unpleasant.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

What power plays? The math is severely against her and she holds an extremely, extremely unlikely chance of regaining the lead. For all intents and purposes, the campaign is over.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 02:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

so let's bully her out, call her names, tell her she's can't campaign, she'll diminish Barack and if he can't win it'll be all her fault?  Flash: no one's won.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Who's bullying? You keep confusing talking heads and internet posters as Obama's campaign, so its better I ask again for you to clarify your statement. Who's calling her names? I'm certainly not and neither is Obama - who, again, has never said that she needs to drop out. Not once. You're attributing random things that anonymous people say online with Obama making personal attacks.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

well, I guess you told me!!!  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

There are lots of women who have had power jobs - Look at the Chancellor of Germany, Golda Meir from years back, Iron Lady Margaret Thatcher.  HRC is hardly the first example of a strong political leader.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 11:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

lots?  Look at the senate, look at the house, look at fortune 500 companies, lots?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I believe what Anna is saying is that women, by their very nature, are weaker and more fragile than men, and therefore need special consideration. We need to be very careful not to let them feel bullied. After all, they're victims. We don't want to victimize them more. They might get the vapors.

Or course, we could treat everyone with equal measures of respect or disdain based on their accomplishments and behavior. Just saying.

by Rationalisto 2008-05-10 01:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

do I?  Quite the opposite, thought it was obvious, I say bully away, it won't work.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:45PM | 0 recs
Gender is not an excuse

Look, we're agreed about a few things. Sexism is alive and well. It's long past time for there to be a female president.

But none of this excuses Clinton attacking the presumptive Democratic nomineee, especially an attack on such spurious grounds as we've heard recently.

by jaiwithani 2008-05-10 06:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Unreal.  Please. Die.

by map 2008-05-10 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Thanks for the HR TeresainPA.  Shall I take that as your agreement with the original posters comment?

by map 2008-05-10 12:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

"Democracy doesn't have a 'keep out the girls' sign on the door and voters get to chose their own girl, we don't need 'a man' to chose a girl for us, thank you, but no thanks."

Why is this always about gender for you?  I supported Clinton until January and I'm a woman and feminist and I switched to Obama.  

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 11:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

it's the elephant in the living room, I happen to see it. You don't?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

No, I don't see it. I've been involved in politics for 35 years and any candidate in Clinton's position is expected to concede.  It has nothing to do with her chromosomal make-up.  

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 11:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

BTW, I teach women's studies in college and college aged women think this sort of argument is a big joke -- And these are women who are self-identified feminists, some of whom are women's studies majors.

You have no idea what harm you're doing to women candidates and feminism by pressing this absurd gender-victimism case.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 11:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Now I'm supposed to shut up too?  My goodness, how powerful must i be if I needs shut up to save future women candidates. I think those women will be quite capable of saving themselves, we're not children you know. We can all speak, not just me, not just Hillary.  Isn't that great?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Women are asking you to drop it because you're so far gone that you're a parody of feminism. Not to mention the victim complex. Actually stopping to think about what you say before you say it is apparently "silencing" your voice. If you're so selfish that you simply don't care about making the rest of the feminist movement look bad, that's your choice. Its a free country. But don't expect women that aren't as far gone as yourself to applaud you while you make a mockery of everything we've fought for.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

women are, all seven of you?  (or are some of your rec's guys)  I guess you want her to shut up to, for risk of emasculating Barack? He'll be glad you're sticking up for him?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I want her to quit the nasty divisive tone of her campaign because she's not doing anyone any favors - the Democratic Party, feminists in general, or even herself, apparently, according to the polls. I want her to conduct herself civilly so people who claim women are spiteful, sniping, lying and manipulative can't point to her for an example. If she can manage that, she can campaign as long as she wants.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 06:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

that's what the diary is about, he's called her divisive and his minions are telling her to shut up. This isn't going to work, she's in it to win and she's not out yet.  Even the gamblers are giving her better odds. She won Indiana, which he'd projected would be his and would make him the winner (it would have, again he failed to close the deal).  She's got new momentum and he's losing momentum. Why? cause she's running a positive campaign and she's upbeat and cheerful and not depressed, and she's not whining about the rules, she's rolling with the changes and she lands on her feet with a smile. Get used to it, she can't be shut up and she's going to  win both the nom and the GE.  

by anna shane 2008-05-11 10:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

As a strong supporter of free speech, I'd be the last to tell you to not speak. That's our greatest right.

But I'm also perfectly fine with telling you how young feminist women see this line of argument and also letting you know that these kinds of arguments hurt women candidates.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 12:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Of course, just because you have the right to speak doesn't always mean you should. My mother always told me that.

by Rationalisto 2008-05-10 01:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

only not enough times?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I teach Women's Studies too. Most of my students happen to be really enjoying and backing what Clinton is doing. So there.

by Soitgoes 2008-05-10 12:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

"So there."  

Is this is the sort of argumentation you teach your students?

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 12:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Perhaps it's a kindergarten class?

by Rationalisto 2008-05-10 01:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

little kids can be very smart about a lot of stuff.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:38PM | 0 recs
Re: What harm is she doing to feminism?

Please explain, and can you substantiate that claim?  You're entitled to disagree with the diary but you are basically trying to shut someone up with a combination of ridicule and guilt.  

I didn't pick up on sexist overtones in these recent events but sexism has permeated the coverage of Senator Clinton's campaign. Sadly, many people who purport to be progressives have been willing to turn a blind eye to it and even to propagate it, because it was politically expedient.  It's been bitterly disappointing to me, because I expected better of progressives. So much for defending democratic values.  

by half nelson 2008-05-10 01:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Is Andrea Dworkin still on the reading lists?

All this castration talk made me think of her.

Maybe you could send Anna a syllabus from one of your women's studies 101 classes.  She might need an update.

She seems stuck in an outdated paradigm, and maybe she didn't even truly grasp some of the theory way back when.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-10 02:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

oooh, you put me in my place.  That's a lot of larnin' for this little ms to take in. I need to go bake cookies now, and find a good therapist. Gosh, I'm so out of touch with my own sex, who knew?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Yes.

Go bake some cookies.

I bet you really enjoy that.

You get to roll the dough up into BALLS and then smash it.

Maybe you could find a book-on-tape version of one of Dworkin's masterpieces to listen too while you're smashing and baking.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-10 05:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

yeah right

by TeresaInPa 2008-05-11 07:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Anna Shane, triple mojo.  Thank you.

by TexasDarlin 2008-05-10 11:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Why Darling, thank you very much. I guess you don't like the bully the girl stuff either. Make the little lady shut up? She'll end up castrating him?  What's funny is they don't realize how much power they attribute to her.  One girls voice can 'diminish, irreparably harm,' the man?  He needs to learn how to lose and then maybe he can figure out what he needs to do to win, that's what I think. I don't trust anyone who's never been defeated, and hasn't shown how to be big in the face of defeat.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Then I guess you don't trust hillary, because until lnow she has never lost either.

by venician 2008-05-10 11:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

oh, she's lost many times. She lost big on her universal health care, but she kept trying and got coverage for children. She doesn't whine, she just gets going on the next project. She's soooo stand up.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Then why don't you take a lesson form her about not whining?

by venician 2008-05-10 11:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

you mean not mocking?  some people just beg to be mocked, how can I disappoint them?  That would be so wrong.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

And that's why your behavior is a horrible reflection of the feminist movement. Behave with some dignity if you're going to tout yourself as an example of feminism.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I'm not a reflection of the woman's movement, I'm just one woman, and no one has the right or the ability to make me shut up. And no matter how many pundits claim Hillary is harming Barack by staying in the race, she's not, and they make him look like a wuss when they jump in to protect him from Hillary.  He doesn't need protection and she doesn't need to protect him.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Then you should probably remove all this "us" and "we" language in your diary as you're obviously not shying away from speaking for women as a whole.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 06:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Tell me when a male candidate who couldn't clinch the nomination wasn't advised to concede? It's the norm to do so and it has nothing to do with gender.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 11:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

like never.  People who can't clinch the nom give up when they want to or they stay as long as they want to. So far neither can clinch the nom and both are staying.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:49PM | 0 recs
People who can't clinch the nom give up or stay ..

Edwards in 2004 ... when it became apparent he couldn't win, he conceded and endorsed Kerry.  Scroll down to March 3, 2004.  

by DailyKingFish 2008-05-10 06:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Darlin, grow up. T.R. ing comments just because you don't like them makes you look silly.

by venician 2008-05-10 11:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I never mind looking silly. Life isn't a funeral, it's fun.  I guess I'm not alone, which is cool. do you hate looking silly?  That would be sad, silly comes with life.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 11:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Look silly? This diary has flown straight through silly into Huh?

by Rationalisto 2008-05-10 01:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

you're addicted? It's possible to make a point without having to cry about it.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 01:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Did you just call me a dick?

by Rationalisto 2008-05-10 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

ohmygod MALE POWER OPPRESSION sirens

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 02:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

You caught me red-handed.

by Rationalisto 2008-05-10 02:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

that's cute, funny. Someday if we happen to be both agreeing and blogging at the same time we should tag team and drive the sober sides nutty.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:43PM | 0 recs
Hillary does not need permission...

but Obama demonstrated again he is the idiot with no judgment

by engels 2008-05-10 12:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary does not need permission...

Really, wasn't it hillary's stupid judgement that has now killed over 4000 Americans?

by venician 2008-05-10 12:11PM | 0 recs
the blame belongs to bush/cheney

try to save your hatred HRc and put it squarely on the people who did this.  And how many of OBama's congressional and senatorial endorsers voted for the war?  EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

Stop misrepresenting what happened.

by 4justice 2008-05-10 06:00PM | 0 recs
Re: the blame belongs to bush/cheney

Ted Kennedy didn't.  Just off the top of my head.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 09:55PM | 0 recs
No, it was Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld

And all the other idiots that wanted to make a bundle off the blood of innocents.

Why you folks insist on blaming people that DIDN'T give the orders to invade is beyond me. Put the blame where it belongs, on the NEOCONS.

by splashy 2008-05-11 10:54PM | 0 recs
Wow. The level of reasoned

analysis, cogent thinking and rational discourse in this comment is beyond my meager comprehension skills.

by UrbanRedneck 2008-05-10 12:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary does not need permission...

The idiot with no judgment is also going to win the Democratic primary against the unholy Clinton machine.

by Rationalisto 2008-05-10 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary does not need permission...

Yah.

He dumb

He barely no how to rite english

Lotsa idiots at Harverd law and learnin kids at nwestern law school

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-10 03:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary does not need permission...

I think that guy engles you're taking issue with was being sarcastic, I think he meant the opposite, I think he's pro-Obama.   Your comment sounds a little strange, though, are you okay?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary does not need permission...

engels pro-Obama?

Please look up a few of his comments.

We've got a few real peaches as well, but he is one of yours.

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-10 03:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Here's a quote from you from April 29th.

"I think that whenever he'd realized he'd lost, he'd do the stand up thing, congratulate the winner and campaign for her, as she would have for him had he closed the deal."

Please, someone tell me, I'm not the only who sees the irony on the wall.

by RollinsMan 2008-05-10 12:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

But apparently now because its Clinton in second place, expecting her to concede gracefully is sexism of the highest order and an affront to women everywhere.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 12:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

And, in fact, it's sexism if you don't treat Clinton in the same way every other losing candidate has been treated.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 12:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

wow that's so well phrased. I except either would once either realizes it's lost. The point is that it isn't lost, to either, not yet anyway. He started calling on her to give up right after Texas and Ohio and then he later took it back, kind of, gave her his permission to stay in until she's ready to leave.  It's his style, when it's about someone I don't like I think he's funny.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

He's never called on her to drop out and has specifically stated that she should stay in. Quit being disingenuous and claiming what media talking heads say is what he's said. In other words, you're lying.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 02:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

senator clinton has the right to say as long as she likes?  She should thank him for giving his permission?  It's his campaign that was calling for her to drop out and now they're calling for her to quit campaigning.  Watch TV much?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

More than you, apparently. Show me where his campaign has said she needs to drop out. Not a surrogate, not a supporter - his campaign.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 06:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?
By the way, if you're looking for superdelegates to flock to Clinton -- today it's 3-0 Obama.  I guess the two women who endorsed Obama - one of whom switched from Clinton - must support sexism in all its forms and are against women in politics.
http://thepage.time.com/2008/05/10/satur days-super-battle-2/
by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 12:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

not looking for either, neither has locked it up.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Correct me if I'm wrong but your figures are a little ascue: you say "more than half the party prefers HRC", Barack Obama is leading the popular vote. Once all the "Super Delegates" are in. Man you Hillaryites have been clinging to that while you had the lead. Tahe once gigantic lead has dwindled down to a negative. So much like her campaign money, her Super Delegates are at a defecit also.

by johnny sexton 2008-05-10 01:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

she won Indiana, which he said was the deciding state, but she's having some rough patches now. I expect her next two big wins, if she wins them big, will revive her campaign. Meantime she just needs to hang in there and remind voters of her qualifications and her solutions.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:18PM | 0 recs
I don't think so

I think she should stay and keep campaigning.  There aren't many states left and those voters who want Clinton or don't want Obama should have a chance to voice their opinions.  But, I don't think continuing to campaign will change the outcome.

The calls for her to drop, though, are typical of the imperious but thin-skinned attitude of the Obama movement.  She was embarrassed in state after state of his type of states but now she has a chance to do the same to him in two places that are her types of states.  It's OK for her to be ridiculed like last year's loser floozy but none should dare to do anything that could diminish the shining prince.

by lombard 2008-05-10 03:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Clinton had a 100+ superdelegate lead before a single vote was cast.  At that time, the media proclaimed her inevitable.  Her entire strategy was to soundly defeat all other candidates by Super Tuesday.  If that's not trying to shut the process down early, I don't know what is.

This isn't about gender.  If Obama (or Edwards, Dodd, etc.) were in Clinton's position, exactly the same situation would present itself.  Indeed, there would probably be even more pressure on the runner-up because of the strength of the Clinton name in the Democratic Party.  The rest of your diary is vitriolic hyperbole.

by rfahey22 2008-05-10 01:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

not the same thing. If she'd won big early it would have been over and if he'd won big early it would have been over. A commanding lead that would be insurmountable early one would have ended it. But they've been virtually tied, so it'll go on.  This attempt to bully her at this point is counter productive, not only will she not cave to bullying, less than me and you can see that I'm not a quitter either, it'll distract from the issues. If he wants a real win he'll need to sell his own policies, and he'd best get started, there isn't much time left for him to close the deal.  If he can't close it, she'll probably get it, her demo's are more likely to carry downtickets, or so says many in congress. he won't win by making her give up because she wont give up. He wont win by declaring himself the winner before she's conceded either, that will just piss off a lot of people who already think he might be arrogant.  Best to wait it out, let them both speak.  She will anyway and so will he.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Who will iron O's shirts?

Obama guys are sloshed on their kool-aid if they think Dem women are going to "iron his shirts".

by moevaughn 2008-05-10 03:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I agree with you. Hillary should continue campaigning. It is her right. She doesn't need anyone's permission.

And if she manages to take Obama down a few notches in the meantime, even better.

by Pagan Power 2008-05-10 03:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

When did  feminism and civil-rights become at odds with each other?

God I loathe second-wavers.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 03:55PM | 0 recs
"even better"...

for the GOP.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-10 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: "even better"...

He's a well-known NoQuarter nazi.

"Let's Call a Spade a Spade" was his opus dei.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:22PM | 0 recs
Few are saying "Don't campaign"

Many are saying "don't campaign in a way that further divides the Democratic party."  See, e.g, "hardworking white people".

Try to address people's actual objections, rather than ones that you make up.

by JJE 2008-05-10 03:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Few are saying "Don't campaign"

this has been brought up twice although one of those was denied after the fact. That was poorly stated and she apologized for stating it poorly but her point was right on. She's managed to get the votes of working class white guy Democrats who always vote for the pug for prez. Even Bill couldn't win these guys and probably no other other Democrat, not just Barack, could win them. It's a great point for her eventual candidacy cause the last dem to win was Bill and he couldn't get this group, but he had the advantage of a third party spoiler, so he didn't need a majority to win the first time.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Few are saying "Don't campaign"

We're talking about white-democratic PRIMARY voters.  Someone always gets them in the democratic party.

Obama got them early on.  Then when the campaign took a swing through appalachia, Hillary got them.

It was a really ugly thing to say.  She's saying there's something unusual that would keep Obama from getting voters that EVERY OTHER DEMOCRAT gets.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Few are saying "Don't campaign"

no, she's talking the GE, she's making her entire case about the GE now.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Few are saying "Don't campaign"

But she's talking about Democratic primary voters.  She does not win white male independants.

And, she's saying that Obama cannot win white people.  As much as that will undoubtedly fill you with joy and show you that the universe is ordered as it should, decent people who believe in equality were, and are, horrified.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Few are saying "Don't campaign"

are you purposely misunderstanding? He's won lots of white people, in many states. But there is a group of working class white men who never vote dem for prez, and she's winning them, and this is amazing. Her husband didn't win them, they've been for pugs up until her. She said it badly, and she sure isn't winning working class black men (or that many women either). This is a cause for celebration. he can't win them, Edwards can't win them, somehow she's winning them. Somehow they appreciate her abilities and her stamina and her way of just going forward, doing her best to get the job done.  It's great.  We need a dem prez, and those votes not going for McCain and going for one of ours is a great thing. She's running a great campaign and she's picking up momentum day by day.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Few are saying "Don't campaign"

Someone always wins the working-class democratic whites who vote in the democratic primary.

I am not misreading you - you're being obtuse.  She is saying that the working-class white voters that her husband won, that she won, that a democrat needs to win, Obama will not win.  Because they're not voting for him now.  She is talking about DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY VOTERS.

Go to her surrogates like Ed Rendell and Sergio Ben Dixon and they'll be a little more explicit about the reason why.  It's not pretty.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Few are saying "Don't campaign"

you don't believe me, you 'know' what I'm saying? the Obama camp response was that Bill hadn't won that group of voters either, the group of working class white guys who are local Democrats, but who vote for the pug for prez.  But, if you assume I'm lying ....

by anna shane 2008-05-11 10:03AM | 0 recs
Setting the record straight on Obama & Iraq

Much has been made of the fact that Obama was not in the senate to vote for or against the war and that all he has to show for himself is yet another empty speech from the pied piper in the empty suit. Listen to the content of a short except from that "empty" pre-war speech and see how empty it sounds to you now:

Barack Obama - pre-war: What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

This type of talk is boilerplate cliché progressive rhetoric to us now, but when these words were spoken they opened the speaker to the most severe ridicule and contempt.

Think back to the Oscar ceremony of 2003. When Michael Moore tried to slip in an anti-war comment he was roundly booed by arguably the most liberal crowd in the nation. For James Carville to denigrate Obama's courage is beyond laughable.

Here's a larger post from Daily Kos on this subject.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/10/ 163233/227/209/513370

Friends, it may be time to end the strike and get back to what's really important to us.

by obsessed 2008-05-10 03:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Setting the record straight on Obama

he should talk more about his exit plan. Does he really plan to keep Bush's no bid contracts and Blackwater protecting them? Does he really plan to keep 60,000 to 80,000 troops there, or very nearby? What is his exit plan?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 03:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Setting the record straight on Obama

I'm sure that his exit plan, like his plan for maximizing delegates won in caucuses, will be well-thought out and executed. He obviously saw the situation more clearly in 2003 than McCain sees it now.

And we know what McCain's non-exit plan is.

Now, John Sydney McCain, there is a man who is fully worthy of your wrath ... and then some! He calls his wife the c-word, and when a supporter asked how he was going to "beat the bitch", he just chuckled.

To say nothing of sullying the good name of Bar-bar-bara Ann!

by obsessed 2008-05-10 05:59PM | 0 recs
Let's just drop everything and forget the voters

by NewHampster 2008-05-10 07:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Setting the record straight on Obama

Cute, but she's still a contender and she has the most complete exit plan backed by the most retired diplomats and military officers. He needs to beat her on this one, not McCain, who has no plan at all.  

by anna shane 2008-05-11 10:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Setting the record straight on Obama

McCain's vile and overt sexism is "cute", but Obama's non-existent sexism sends you on the warpath, eh?

I'd say you're a troll who's eaten all of our lunches and is rolling around on the floor laughing as we try to "talk you down", but the history of your comments goes back so far that it doesn't make sense.

by obsessed 2008-05-11 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Setting the record straight on Obama

no, he's a creep, you're cute.  

by anna shane 2008-05-11 03:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

My favorite part of this post is where anna shane sneeringly refers to Nancy Pelosi as someone from a politically connected family.

Why must Hillary always be disadvantaged from her lack of family connections?

by alvernon 2008-05-10 04:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

You liked that? I like the part about how he must think we're all interchangeable if he thinks he can appease us by throwing us some other girl, any would do?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I like the part where you think Nancy Pelosi has no independant will of her own.  

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

did I say that? Sure didn't mean to. We all have wills of our own, each and every one of us.  I do suspect our Nancy of wanting to be vice president and serve Obama coffee though.  Maybe light his cigarettes for him.  She wants to be condi to his geo in my opinion, but I'm probably wrong, just looking at body language. What do you think she'll do with her free will?  I mean, he's cute, for sure.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Haha, I actually did not expect you to come out and confirm it.

>Slowly< - many, MANY women prefer the idea of an Obama presidency to a Clinton presidency.  A good portion of them, like Nancy Pelosi, are anti-war.  Others, like you, want to see a president from an oppressed group that they share in their lifetime.  Others, like my family, are basing their votes on Hillary Clinton's Senate record, and how it bears no resemblance to her campaign promises.

None of them want to serve him coffee and submit to him.   Your rhetoric is as ugly as your candidate's.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Come on, now, Mostly. Her rhetoric isn't THAT ugly. It's not like she implied Nancy Pelosi is a slut or a whore.  Oh, wait...

by alvernon 2008-05-10 09:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Hill wasn't too proud to fetch coffee when she was a junior on some committee.  i just think Nancy has a crush on him that's all.  I think a lot of his supporters have a crush on him. I suppose that's more of my ugly rhetoric?   My goodness, I am a terrible girl, aren't I.  I should shut up?  

by anna shane 2008-05-11 10:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?
This diary gets the award for Car Wreck of the Day.
You drive by it and you try not to look but once you get one peak you just can't take your eyes off. Poor diarist, I think she's wounded. Can someone call an ambulance.
by venician 2008-05-10 04:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I'm okay but thanks for the concern. It's fun.  Got some amusing comments here, no? Maybe someone will print it out for a class on feminism.  It'd get a fairer reading once the GE is over, probably.  Passions are running high?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:46PM | 0 recs
Another day,

another diary filled with personal attacks on our presumptive Democratic nominee hits the rec list.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-10 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Another day,

personal attacks? I don't think so, I'm exposing his strategy, and letting him know it won't work.  We've come a long way, baby? Anyone can call us names, did you read any of the comments about me, rather personal were some, but, hey, we don't care, let them run their mouths, she'll take it all the way.  She's in it to win.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:50PM | 0 recs
ha

The fact that you don't see the personal attacks in your own diary speaks volumes about you and your approach.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-10 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: ha

Apparently they're not personal attacks if they're coming from a woman, directed at a man. This is the double standard that she claims she's against when women are at the receiving end. I honestly have no idea how people can live with a double standard like that, no matter how poorly previous generations have been treated.

by upstate girl 2008-05-10 06:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Let me see if I can sum this up:

Barack Obama is a sexist and is driven not be real election concerns, but by a fear of a castration ceremony.

Black 'journalists' - who are we kidding? - the Obama campaign in thin disguise, are acting like the bullies that they've always been.  It's the only way they can keep from going down in flames.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

who are you summing up?  I'm saying the new talking point isn't to  make her go away, but to make her shut up, with the claim that she'll diminish Barack with her loose lips. I think it's transparent what I'm saying.  She won't and Barack isn't so permeable that he can so easily be diminished, and if he could, he'd never beat the pug diminishing machine. Did you know McCain hired the swift boat team about four or five months ago?  If he can't stand up to Hilary?  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

An attack from a democrat amplifies anything to come later.  As you should know.  They can say almost anything they want now, and preface it with "even Hillary Clinton says...." and there's a long list after that.

A lot of people don't know that the Willie Horton ad originally came from the Gore campaign.  When it was contested as being inaccurate, the Republicans simply replied that they weren't saying it, Gore was.

I was watching a cable show, and a Republican operative said - and this is almost a direct quote - "it would have been difficult to have run an ad showing Osama bin Laden, after ads like that were given a bad name in 2006.  Well, not any more, because Hillary Clinton has already done it.  It would have been difficult to link Barack Obama with Hamas.  Well, not anymore, because Hillary Clinton has already done it.  It would have been hard to attack his character credibly.  Well not anymore - Hillary Clinton has already done it".

Don't you get it?

by Mostly 2008-05-10 05:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

If he can't stand up to Hilary?  

He did stand up to Hillary.

To me, an Obama supporter, I thought he stood up to her with restraint and class, but obviously not enough restraint and class for you, Anna. You're furious enough at him now - think how furious you'd be if he'd been more aggressive in rebutting Hillary's attacks on him.

When the attackers are John Sidney and the swiftboat morons, I think you'll see the gloves comes off a little more.

by obsessed 2008-05-10 06:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

hey, I like the  man. he's trying to win, this time by trying to shut her up, but since it isn't working, who cares? I've put him on notice that it isn't working.  

by anna shane 2008-05-11 09:35AM | 0 recs
Slate Delegate Counter

Anna, take a deep breath, relax and head over to the Slate Delegate Counter to better understand why Hillary has no mathematical chance to win.  She needs essentially 100% of the vote in every state except Oregon, Montana and South Dakota where she needs 75% of the vote in order to even be tied in the number of delegates.  If she only wins WV by 40%, she becomes further behind...

I won't tell her to drop out but if you or she cares a bit about Democratic politics or feminist principles, I would recommend you lower the level of your rhetoric.  You are not helping.

by zadura 2008-05-10 04:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Slate Delegate Counter

of course she has a chance, that's a Barack talking point to bully her out.  Take  deep breath yourself, it isn't over.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Slate Delegate Counter

Anna, are you oblivious to reality?  Explain how she has a chance using math rather than anger.  If you can come up with a realistic scenario, please describe it.  Otherwise, you just sound hysterical and unhinged.

by zadura 2008-05-10 04:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Slate Delegate Counter

that's the talking point. Let's say her momentum holds and she wins most of the remaining states with a big majority and if she loses any it's by hardly anything?  Okay and let's say she's within 100 pledged delegates? And then she's polling ahead of him, he's lost his momentum and Florida and Michigan get seated? She could of course win in this scenario, she'd then be the clear choice.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 05:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Slate Delegate Counter

Bet me.  If you have confidence that she's going to win, put your money where your mouth is.  

by zadura 2008-05-10 11:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Slate Delegate Counter

LOL She sound hysterical and unhinged?

Nope she's just disagreeing with you on the how to read the facts.

Disagree on that fine but leave the armchair psych. exam to someone else.

Personally considering the number of folks she's responded to she's holding up okay.

You ever tried it?

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-10 10:15PM | 0 recs
This pretty much sums up my feelings.

While I don't agree with 100% of what she says and how she says it, she comes close to expressing where I'm coming from:

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/10/ let-me-explain-to-obamazoids-why-we-dont -care-to-hear-from-you/#comments

Let Me Explain to Obamazoids Why We Don't Care To Hear From You
By Uppity Woman

Recently, No Quarter has had a rash of Obama supporters who have been dispatched to Make Nicey-Nicey. To add insult to injury, they are really bad at it. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Then we have those who don't bother to hide their disdain, thrilled to stalk us after maliciously driving us away from other forums dedicated to their Messiah. These are the things the campaign of Barack Obama is really made of-and this is why we have no use for Barack Obama or them.

I was reading an article this morning about how one of Obama's advisors had to resign because of his connections to Hamas. Pretty serious stuff, wouldn't you think? I mean, considering his other Middle Eastern affiliations of dubious intent and criminal status, you would think that an Obama supporter would at least be somewhat alarmed. Nope. Here was an Obama supporter's comment:

All I have to say is keep crying like broads on a rag. You all lost face it...Cowards.....

Posted by: The Oracle in MD May 10, 2008 10:24 AM

This is just one of scores of messages I have read and captured from Obama pigs-with links captured for posterity, deleted or not. I do hope that young women who swoon for this man at least understand that self-respect demands respect from others. I shall be using these comments well throughout the election season.

On behalf of millions of Clinton supporters who have made it very clear that we will vote for a cockroach before we vote for Barack Obama, I would like you pieces of Obama crap to know that you can kiss our asses. We will collectively do everything in our power to see to it that you and that mysogynist, bigoted, race-baiting pig you worship, the fraud who has already set gender and racial relations back thirty years, goes down in flames in a big way. And there are millions of us. Millions. The kind of millions that brought his type down before from the voting booth.

Our goal is to make Barack Obama lose by an even bigger margin than George McGovern, and he got 38% thanks to his ill-behaved savage followers. And you guys are worse! And George was actually a gentleman with some brains, unlike Barky Obama. He didn't even do the rap on camera and give people the finger. His nutcase followers didn't even have the internet where they could make comments about slitting Hillary Clinton's throat and tossing her into a river like you guys do at my.barackobama. But, there is one huge simlilarity. Like his crackpot followers, you folks are the reason that the Democratic Party has only elected only two Presidents in thirty years. And only one of them served two terms. Guess why? Because he was a moderate instead of a crackpot Marxist hanging off some radical cliff.

So who are all these people who will bring Barack Obama and you down?

They are The Women who fought for rights and recognize sexism and misogyny when they see it; women who will fight you with every fiber of their beings.

They are the Italians who would like you to know that their Garlic Noses are going to shove it up your asses in November.

They are the gays and lesbians who understand why Barry Obama refused to have his photo taken with San Francisco's Mayor. The people who remember that a blank white page occurred in a magazine in the area that was supposed to contain Obama's interview.

They are the Irish who watched that raving, crazed maniacal America-despising, white-hating "reverend" insult them on national television.

They are the Catholics who love Hillary Clinton and have a huge allergy to people who go to churches with preachers who act like whackjobs.

They are the Latinos who have received the same kind of unfair treatment from African Americans that African Americans have long resented themselves.

They are in Michigan. They are in Florida. No sense of hiding it. They know.

They are the Seniors, who are old enough and wise enough to recognize an empty suit peddling bullcrap when they see it.

They are the "Hicks" with guns and blue collar and service workers in those badly needed Swing States.They provide your smug arrogant asses with silly things like food, products and services you would be screaming about if they weren't there. Now, Barry might pick himself a Vice Presidential candidate from one of these states, God knows he has plenty of swing states to choose from where he needs help badly. As a matter of fact, he needs to pick about four VPs to run with him. I'm sure if it can be done, they will allow Barry special dispensation to do it, right?

They are all the marvelous feminist men, the real progressives among you imposters, who are horrified at your behavior toward women.

They are the elderly and disabled who couldn't caucus. They are the working people, including nurses and police officers and firefighters on shift who couldn't caucus and tell you what they really think-because they were too busy keeping your arrogant asses safe.

They are the Baby Boomers who aren't still on the bong, who recognize exactly what Recreate68 means. They won't let you force us back to that vile time. They remember Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn too. Get it?

They are the Jews who recently had to hear Hamas say on the Day of Mourning for those killed in the Holocaust -that the Holoucaust was created by Jews to get rid of their own weak people. That was right after they had to hear Hamas endorse Barack Obama with a wink-wink.

And most of all, they are people who recognize ability, experience and knowledge as easily as they recognize an empty-suited media creation with a resume the size of a postage stamp, who is handing out Needful Things ala Leland Gaunt.

That's who they are folks. Good luck with that.

So kindly don't bother trying the Nicey-Nicey. We are not your wives you can beat the crap out of and later come back and get back together with. You are so vile you give yourselves away by the third comment, so really it's a waste of time. You don't even know you are offensive because it's in your DNA or something. So really, there's no sense of stressing yourselves trying to hide your disdain for us. It's not necessary. We hate you even more than you hate us and all of you only serve to solidify our resolve. And when Barry Obama goes down in November, kindly remember why. Or don't remember why. Nobody cares.

by Soitgoes 2008-05-10 04:20PM | 0 recs
Re: This pretty much sums up my feelings.

Quoting No Quarter says all anyone needs to know about the poster.

I can't imagine anyone playing nice with them.  Drive them into the Republican party or out of politics - I don't care which.  There's no room under the tent for people who "call a spade a spade, tee hee".

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:24PM | 0 recs
Re: This pretty much sums up my feelings.

That is pretty weird stuff. Obama's a Marxist and a woman hater? Based on what evidence?  

Lots of free floating anger in that post, along with no sense that who is in the WH makes a difference in people's lives and affects our life chances.  It's more important to defeat Obama than to prevent damage to the nation?  

And because he won against Clinton -- which he did without once mentioning some of the very nasty things she was involved me, the women who Bill harassed and maybe even raped.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 04:42PM | 0 recs
Re: This pretty much sums up my feelings.

Seriously, for me, when someone links to NoQuarter it's like finding a white hood in their closet.  Usually it makes everything fall into place.

by Mostly 2008-05-10 04:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

After months of saying that the superdelegates should make the decision and use their own judgment, they are.

Yesterday Obama netted 7 superdelegates
Today Obama netted 5 superdelegates

Many of those superdelegates are women. They aren't sexist.  They want a strong, unified Democratic party.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 04:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

never said they were. Obama gets voters who like him and also like her but prefer him. His sexist ones are the ones that can't help smearing her when they're ostensibly trying to support him. It's funny it's like 5% Obama is great, and 95% I hate Hillary. If I were him I'd feel insulted.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

The sad thing about this nomination campaign is that it seems to have driven a wedge between two groups that should be allies. Blacks and women both have suffered a history of mistreatment, and now the two groups seem alienated from each other. That isn't good. I don't think it will last long, but if it does it will be a tragedy.

I think that supporters of both candidates owe something to the supporters of the other candidate this cycle. Clinton supporters need to realize that, despite their disappointment, we still have a chance to break down a major barrier this election, and they should get on board with that. Likewise, Obama supporters, and Obama himself, need to realize that their victory, though won fairly, has ended the dreams of many women in this country, and so should try to work harder for women's issues and the advancement of women within the party while they are in power.

by Mustapha Mond 2008-05-10 04:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

half of all black people are women, you know.  This isn't affecting the relations between blacks and girls, it isn't affecting anything, it's just rhetoric. Campaigns can get a little heated up, but is isn't personal, both want to win, that's all.  He's using his best moves, and since she's stronger overall his best moves are to take her down a few pegs, and it's worked pretty well, up until recently anyway and her's is to be the smartest and bestest and most on top of all the issues.  Don't worry, it's just politicks.   He hasn't won and she could pull it off, and that's the truth.  HIs move is to make it like a fait accompli, and hers is to show that she's a great candidate, who can best all of them in the GE.  

by anna shane 2008-05-10 04:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

I suppose you are somewhat right about it being politics, but I wish you would be a little more respectful of Obama. In may ways he isn't that different from Clinton. They are both decent, respectable candidates who represent change in their own way. Why the need to stick in sentences about Clinton being "smartest" and "she's stronger overall" etc. etc. Obama is a smart guy, and he is winning this election in a very respectable manner. Should he act differently toward the Clinton campaign? Maybe. But I think its silly to claim Obama is only winning by preventing Clinton from proving herself. Americans are very familiar with Clinton, she has had her chance to sell her message.

by Mustapha Mond 2008-05-10 05:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

He has a mix of supporters, my family mainly backs him, they want a new face in washington and they think he's a bright guy who can figure things out soon enough.  I mock him, yes, but he mocks Hillary and he has a bigger stage than me, and mocking is legitimate political discourse, especially if you're like me a nobody.  My main point is that it isn't over, and that shutting her up isn't an option.  She's smarter than all of them, not just him.  And he's a very bright guy.  

by anna shane 2008-05-11 09:27AM | 0 recs
I'm reporting you right now.

by 4justice 2008-05-10 06:02PM | 0 recs
Um, yeah, it's not his supporters saying that

It's Democratic leaders who said that it should play out so long as she doesn't restort, again, to trying to absolute destroy him.

by jaywillie 2008-05-10 07:33PM | 0 recs
I don't think anyone's said don't campaign.

What should happen at this point is that Hillary should show that she knows that in all likelihood Obama is the nominee, and consequently instead of negative campaigning focusing on him, it's time for her to focus on herself, and advocate for the issues she cares about, and direct any comparisons against McCain.

This is actually a good time for her to advocate for he main issues and continue to direct the discussion in important ways.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-10 07:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?

Of course she can still campaign!

BTW, Democratic Convention Watch has changed its graph so it's now tracking the Obama lead in superdelegates. It used to track the Clinton lead.

http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/02/ superdelegate-history-tracker.html

I'd embed the picture if I knew how.

by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 07:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Stay if You Must, but Don't Campaign?
According to http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/02/ superdelegate-history-tracker.html
a week ago Clinton had 21 more superdelegates than Obama. She is now behind Obama by 3.5 superdelegates.
by politicsmatters 2008-05-10 07:48PM | 0 recs
Hey PM I found a present for your bedroom wall

by NewHampster 2008-05-10 08:55PM | 0 recs

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