McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Ok correct me if I'm wrong here - but hasn't Sen. Obama said all along that a McCain presidency would be equal to a third term for George W. Bush?

So why is he suddenly saying that McCain would be a better president than Bush?  Sure, he's played up to republicans and independents in the past whenever there was an open primary or caucus coming up (remember those "be a Democrat for a day" flyers in Nevada) but I'm pretty sure he knows that Pennsylvania's primary this Tuesday is closed.  We saw report after report of his campaign playing up to independents and republicans in the lead up to the registration deadline on March 24th, urging them to register in time to vote for him on the 22nd of this month.

This doesn't make any sense - it really doesn't.

Ahh well, either way Hillary's came up with a brilliant reply to his latest misstep - take a look...

Hillary Clinton Responds to Sen. Obama's Suggestion that Sen. McCain Would be a Better President than George Bush

Hillary Clinton responded today to a statement made by Sen. Obama suggestion that Sen. McCain would be a better President than George W. Bush.

In Reading , PA , Sen. Obama's said:"You have a real choice in this election. Either Democrat would be better than John McCain...And all three of us would be better than George Bush." Read more.  

Hillary Clinton's response from Johnstown, PA (For an actuality of the audio, click here):

"Sen. Obama said today that John McCain would be better for the country than George Bush. Now, Sen. McCain is a real American patriot who has served our country with distinction, but Sen. McCain would follow the same failed policies that have been so wrong for our country the last seven years.

"Sen. McCain thinks it is okay to keep our troops in Iraq for the next 100 years. Is that better than George Bush?  

Audience: No!

"Sen. McCain will continue the failed economic policies of George Bush that have brought us deficit and increasing debt. Is that better than George Bush?

Audience: No!

"Sen. McCain does not have a health care plan that will cover every American. In fact, we will have more and more uninsured Americans. Is that better than George Bush?

Audience: No!

"Sen. McCain has no plans to end the housing foreclosure crisis or cut the cost of gas at the pump. Is that better than George Bush?

Audience: No!

"We need a nominee who will take on John McCain, not cheer on John McCain, and I will be that nominee."

Now I won't speculate as to his reasons for making this insanely stupid claim but I think we can all agree that given the effed up state of our economy, a third term of Bush (ie a McCain presidency) would be far worse than his first two terms.

Bush may have allowed the housing crisis to reach the boiling point - but if McCain got in it would bubble over to cause immeasurable suffering for millions of families.

Bush's greed and cronyism where gas & oil are concerned may have allowed prices to skyrocket to the point where gas will likely reach $4.00 a gallon this summer and food prices are putting a lot of things out of reach for working families, but a McCain presidency (and his lack of attention to this crisis) could send prices through the roof.

A McCain presidency will not only continue those failed policies far into the future, but given the state of the world right now, if he got in things will spiral out of control at an exponential pace.

Bush hasn't even begun to address our health care crisis and McCain thinks the current system is acceptable won't do a damn thing about it.  Without a universal health care reform plan we'll see far more than 47 million without access to healthcare.

We have GOT to get a Democrat into the White House this year.  No two ways about it.  And not just any Democrat - we need someone who'll take on McCain with everything she's got.  

Bush's policies need to be reversed and they need reversing now.  We can't wait another 4 years to undo the damage so I can't possibly see how any Democrat could claim that McCain would be better than Bush.

We have GOT to get a Democrat into the White House this year.  No two ways about it.  

And not just any Democrat.

We need someone who'll take on McCain with everything she's got.  

Hillary Clinton.

Tags: 2008 elections, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, John McCain, president, Recommended (all tags)

Comments

199 Comments

Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

No way McCain's anything other than a third term for BushCo.  And that's totally unacceptable.

by alegre 2008-04-20 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Do you really want to bring up the HRC innuendo that McCain and HRC had passed the Commander-in-chief test over Obama?

by Veteran75 2008-04-20 05:14PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold. I believe that I've done that. Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that . . .

by Veteran75 2008-04-20 05:19PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

P.S. - I DO NOT AGREE with HRC's opinion that McCain has passed the Commander-in-chief threshold!

Does Alegre think McCain has passed that threshold?

by Veteran75 2008-04-20 05:27PM | 0 recs
I've never seen a diary from her on it

So I think it's safe to assume that Allegre thinks that Mcain has passed the commander in chief thresholds. Which means that Hillary thinks that only she and MCcain deserve to be president.

I think Obama was being a bit too generous in offering Hillary any distinction from John Mcain. After all she's been doing what she can to tie herself to the neocons.  When Obama wins the presidency, Hillary and Mcain will be the only ones under "the umbrella of nuclear awesome-ness" or whatever ridiculous and jingoistic name she came up with.

by Tenafly Viper 2008-04-21 10:28AM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Cute.  But you know?  A surgeon's spouse is going to know a buttload more about surgery than someone who is married to, say, an attorney.  

The only way to get presidential experience is to BE  president.  There's only one POTUS.  But the best way to learn about being POTUS is to hang out with one on a daily basis for eight years.  

If I watched while a surgeon performed surgeries for eight years, I'd still need the actual hands-on experience, but I'd have learned an enormous amount about what is involved in surgery.  And if you were stuck on a desert island with only an attorney and me, who would you rather have do your emergency appendectomy?  The attorney?

by Montague 2008-04-20 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Dayum... well said Montague.  Well said!

by alegre 2008-04-20 05:41PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Proximity to power is not experience.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 05:46PM | 0 recs
Proximity to power PLUS experience

is a whole lot better than squat which is exactly what Obummer has.  If I am not mistaken, he said he has not been able to convene his subcommitte because he has been too busy running for president.  No kidding.  Between that attitude and voting present instead of taking any stand is not much of a recommendation for the highest office in this country.

by macmcd 2008-04-20 07:07PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

True.  It is education.  

Incidentally, non-proximity to power is neither experience nor education.

by Montague 2008-04-20 07:07PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Uhh, as a nurse, and having seen surgeon's wives, I'd say absolutely neither, and your analogy is bunk.

;)

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

I'm a nurse too, and I would pick the attorney:-)

by Roberta 2008-04-20 05:56PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

lol

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

You'd be dead.  But since the only attorney around had caused your death, your chance of having a lawsuit of wrongful death brought would be minimal.

All in all, probably a win.

by Montague 2008-04-20 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Funny!  :)

by ChitownDenny 2008-04-20 07:40PM | 0 recs
Yeah

I may just be a med student, but the doc's wives I've seen don't have much experience with the doc's job unless they too are a doc.  It is like asking the spouse of a nuclear physicist to be able to do the research of the nuclear physicist.

As someone who dated a physics major for a while I'd disagree with it being transferable like that.  shudders physics was hard for me.

by Student Guy 2008-04-20 06:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah

Twinkle twinkle little star, power equals I squared R.

by ragekage 2008-04-20 06:44PM | 0 recs
When I say physics

I am referring to quantum mechanics.  The maths are scary!

by Student Guy 2008-04-21 10:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah

SPOUSE is actually a crappy analogy.  What Hillary did in the WH was dissimilar to being a surgeon's wife.  It was more like being an observer in the operating theater on a daily basis.  I don't know any surgeon's spouse (unless that surgeon is married to another surgeon) who observes his/her spouse at work.

Physics is hard for me, but my sister is a physics genius and she talks about physics all the time, and it has rubbed off on me.  I can answer questions about physics that the ordinary citizen never could, and it's because I spend a lot of time around her.

by Montague 2008-04-20 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Hillary is, of course, not at all like a surgeon's wife, more like a surgical nurse in this analogy.  And I would take the surgical nurse over the attorney any frikkin day.

by Montague 2008-04-20 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Er... no? (on the surgical nurse thing) Well, we disagree; so be it, I suppose, eh?

by ragekage 2008-04-20 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

What kind of attorney and what does the spouse do for a living?

by RLMcCauley 2008-04-20 06:53PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Valid questions, showing that the cutesy caption is incorrect.  Hillary was not the equivalent of a surgeon's wife.  I'd say most surgeon's wives (and husbands) don't work at the spouse's office.  A better analogy would be a surgical nurse or a long-term observer in the operating theater.

by Montague 2008-04-20 07:14PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

A surgical nurse has some surgery specific training.   What if I just watched a lot of surgery on TV?

by RLMcCauley 2008-04-20 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Again, the analogy isn't quite right.  But it's hard to know what the best analogy is, of course.  If I had my choice between someone who had watched surgery shows on TV and someone who never watched any surgery shows, I'd chance it on the person who had observed.

Quite seriously, I always thought I was too squeamish to be a doctor or a nurse.  I felt I could never ever stick a needle in a living creature, even if it meant death.  Within a few seconds, I found I was totally wrong, when the moment arose.

Anyway, this is all getting rather silly. :)

by Montague 2008-04-20 07:25PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Heh. How about a doctor's receptionist?

by RLMcCauley 2008-04-20 08:41PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

To suggest Hillary was the equivalent of a doctor's receptionist is to suggest that Obama has spent his career as the equivalent of a butler.

by Montague 2008-04-22 07:40PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

you are kidding, right?

by trubble 2008-04-20 08:30PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

So you'd allow the spouse of a surgeon to do your open-heart surgery on the theory that they had experience by osmosis? I'm just gonna have to disagree with you here.

by fugazi 2008-04-20 08:36PM | 0 recs
Great maybe they can ask this at the next debate

since stupid hypotheticals are now considered rational and reasonable debate tactics.

The real issue with the whole proxy experience idea isn't whether or not Hillary could obtain experience in that way. It's more the issue that she can't take credit for being part of the administrations successes without also taking credit for it's failures.  Everytime she denounces one policy and takes credit for another it looks like dishonest pandering - it fails miserably.

by Tenafly Viper 2008-04-21 10:49AM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

TD needs to be reported for zero abuse.

A 1 is fine, but 0 gets reported.

by McTrollop 2008-04-20 05:39PM | 0 recs
OMG the hall monitor is going to tell!!!!!

You poor little things.  So you tell the teacher.  What a pitiful life.

by macmcd 2008-04-20 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: OMG the hall monitor is going to tell!!!!!

The troll ratings are there for good reason and serve a useful purpose.

Try to be a little bit less combative, please.  You are only hurting our candidate.

by Trickster 2008-04-20 07:44PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

That was NOT an innuendo. It was an explicit statement made in a very demeaning way. Hillary Clinton actually passed a threshold that day. The lower threshold of acceptability as the Democratic nominee.

by hania 2008-04-20 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Obama said it'd be acceptable?

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

no, alegre said it unacceptable. you can tell who made the comment by looking at the last line.

by campskunk 2008-04-20 06:16PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Its funny, the headline made me think that alegre had taken a break from the relentless trashing of Democrats to actually take a shot at a Republican.  So I was about to say kudos, only to find, nope, yet another shot at Obama.  

Seriously, alegre, the Clintons sang McCain's praises so much that it seemed like they were arguing for his canoization.  The C-I-C test thing, Bill's comment that IF Hillary faces McCain there would be 2 candidates who are patriots, etc.  

by bosdcla14 2008-04-20 05:30PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

You are correct Alegre. McCain is TOTALLY unacceptable. His crap may stink less than Bush's . . . but it is still crap. I don't fault Obama for admitting the obvious there.

HECK - Bush SR was better than Bush JR. That didn't stop me from working for Bill Clinton's campaign in '92.

I just can't wait for these last 10 contests to end, so you and I can keep writing on McCain.

I already wrote my two diaries for the day, but plan to write a "temper" diary on McCain this week.

by FOB92 2008-04-20 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

I think you're doing a great job keeping your eye on the ball.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 05:49PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

I think we all would have been keeping our eye on the ball after FEB 5, if Carville was running HRC's show instead of Penn.

Carville was the man when I worked for Bill in '92.

by FOB92 2008-04-20 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Why wasn't he running her campaign?  I'm not saying I'm a fan, but he would have probably seen all this shit coming.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 05:58PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

The honest answer?

I think Carville rubbed her the wrong way after he confronted her on the self-oppo. research done on their marital history.

I suggest watching Thornton's character in 'Primary Colors.'

That movie is fiction, but I can vouch for some similarities.

by FOB92 2008-04-20 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Just as a disclaimer, I'm an Obama supporter, but I don't deny that she would probably be even or ahead had she had a different primary strategy.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 06:11PM | 0 recs
Hillary said that McCain has passed the

Commander in Chief threshold!

She handed the GOP a HUGE talking point!!!

HOW STUPID of her.

WHY WHY WHY did Hillary say that?

by OhPlease 2008-04-20 06:26PM | 0 recs
Obama said that Hillary is

dishonest and do anything to get elected!

He handed the GOP a HUGE talking point!!!

HOW STUPID of him.

WHY WHY WHY did Hillary say that?

by psychodrew 2008-04-20 08:43PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Someone recently told me McCain had passed the commander in chief test, but they weren't sure about Obama.  It stood out, because a Democrat was heaping this praise on McCain.  Now Obama has compared McCain favorably to President Bush, and as Democrat interested in taking back the White House we should  say he'd be worse though it's difficult to imagine. If I'm concerned about Obama's statements, can you imagine precisely how unacceptable it would be for say, Hillary Clinton to tell me that she and McCain had passed the commander in chief test but we'd have to ask Obama about whether he'd passed it?  Feign outrage, demand Obama renounce the statement, reject McCain as evil after telling me Clinton and McCain get along well and what a civil race it would be.

EVERYTHING has to be an issue when you feel you have nothing.

by niksder 2008-04-20 06:47PM | 0 recs
What?

Commander-in-chief threshold ring a bell? The Clintons didn't just say that McCain would be a better President than Bush, they said he'd be a better President than Obama.

by MBNYC 2008-04-20 05:16PM | 0 recs
false.

find me a link with those words as a direct quote of hillary and i'll believe you. the problem is, you can't.  that's not what she said- that's the misinterpretation of her words you choose to argue with.

by campskunk 2008-04-20 06:19PM | 0 recs
Sure.

Carpetbagger Report:

Over the last week, as the Clinton campaign has ratcheted up its praise of John McCain in relation to Barack Obama, the candidate and her team have offered themselves just a little bit of wiggle room.

Hillary Clinton, for example, told reporters on Monday, "I have a lifetime of experience I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience he will bring to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he made in 2002." On Wednesday, addressing what she described as passing the "commander-in-chief threshold," Clinton added, "I believe that I've done that. Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that and you'll have to ask Sen. Obama with respect to his candidacy."

Now, if pressed, Clinton could point out that she never explicitly said Obama came up short, she simply praised McCain's and her own background. The implication was overwhelmingly obvious, but Clinton came just shy of saying Obama isn't ready for the presidency.

It appears the campaign has since dropped the pretense.

Chief Clinton strategist Mark Penn told Ryan Lizza that independents and Republicans who had supported Obama are beginning to "get more of a sense that he's not ready to be Commander-in-Chief."

Clinton spokesperson Howard Wolfson, in a conference call this morning, added, "[W]e continued to believe that Senator Obama has not passed the key commander-in-chief test at least at this point."

This is more than a little tiresome. But as it turns out, none other than Bill Clinton came up with an interesting perspective on all of this.

Stepping back for a moment, the issue of the Clinton campaign's criticism of Obama's commander-in-chief abilities have taken on increased salience lately for a few reasons. First, Clinton inexplicably keeps praising John McCain's background and abilities, needlessly undermining party unity and messaging. Second, if Republicans attack Obama on his commander-in-chief abilities, it's predictable. But when a Democrat does it, the attack has a different kind of credibility.

And third, it's rather awkward for the Clinton campaign to keep insisting that Obama is unfit to lead while at the same time arguing that Obama would make a great addition to Clinton's presidential ticket.

Wolfson tried to thread the needle.

He said that the possibility of Obama as veep is not something that she is "prepared to rule out at this point," adding: "At the same time we continued to believe that Senator Obama has not passed the key commander-in-chief test at least at this point."

A bit later in the call, Wolfson was pressed on this question, and said:

"Senator Clinton will not choose any candidate who has not at the time of choosing passed the national security threshold. But we have a long way to go until Denver, and it's not something she's prepared to rule out at this point."

So, Obama can't meet the threshold in March, but he might be able to in August? How's that exactly?

Bill Clinton's answer was more helpful.

[G]iven the Clinton camp's implicit argument that Obama is not ready to be commander-in-chief or handle a 3:00 am phone call, [Bill] Clinton was asked why then would she consider Obama for the No. 2 spot. "That's politics," Clinton said.

It is, indeed. It's also the first subtle admission that the Clinton campaign doesn't actually mean all this talk about Obama and the "commander-in-chief threshold," but they're making the attack anyway because they think it might work.

So you're technically correct, in that Clinton herself only danced up to the edge. Her husband and chief aides went further. So the distinction is meaningless.

by MBNYC 2008-04-20 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Sure.

i see. you can't find the quote. so you raise a peripheral issue.

that's what i figured.

by campskunk 2008-04-21 12:08PM | 0 recs
What do I win?

In a Cabinet-style setting, surrounded by retired military leaders, Sen. Hillary Clinton said the public should ask whether Democratic presidential rival Barack Obama has met the criteria needed to become the nation's commander in chief.

"I think that since we now know Sen. (John) McCain will be the nominee for the Republican Party, national security will be front and center in this election. We all know that. And I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold," the New York senator told reporters crowded into an infant's bedroom-sized hotel conference room in Washington.

"I believe that I've done that. Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that and you'll have to ask Sen. Obama with respect to his candidacy," she said.

Calling McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee a good friend and a "distinguished man with a great history of service to our country," Clinton said, "Both of us will be on that stage having crossed that threshold. That is a critical criterion for the next Democratic nominee to deal with."

http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/p olitics/blog/2008/03/clinton_ive_crossed _commanderi.html

by OhPlease 2008-04-20 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: What?

The Clintons didn't just say that McCain would be a better President than Bush, they said he'd be a better President than Obama.

Do you have a source for that accusation?  I've never heard Hillary say that McCain would be better than Obama.  When Bill was being accused of racism, he emphatically stated that he would campaign for Obama were he the nominee.

by psychodrew 2008-04-20 08:47PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

"We need a nominee who will take on John McCain, not cheer on John McCain, and I will be that nominee."

It would be funny if weren't so transparent and dishonest. When, exactly, is she going to stop cheering on John McCain. I guess when you're Hillary Clinton, consistency and honesty are pretty much expendable. We've seen that on NAFTA, pride/shame, Iraq, Joe Lieberman, guns....

Hillary Clinton has been talking about McCain's qualifications for two months now. Bill called him a "moderate" and can't stop talking about how much he and Hillary like him.

So now you're going to bring your day's supply of phony outrage to the faint praise that he'd be "better than Bush"?

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-20 05:18PM | 0 recs
Nice diary

I think McCain will be the same as Bush.  Also your diary is very well written.

Good job!

by Student Guy 2008-04-20 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Nice diary

I must applaud that she is taking on McCain . . . it is just too bad that the diary is another hit-piece on our probable DEM nominee.

Don't worry Alegre . . . we are nearly neighbors in the Beltway, so I look forward to knocking on doors with you to defeat McCain this Fall. I just hope those leaflets we pass out say Obama/Clinton instead of Clinton/Obama.

:o)

by Veteran75 2008-04-20 05:23PM | 0 recs
It slams Obama

but she does attack McCain in it and the writing is her own words (which people raised holy hell about last night).  I am willing to admit that the attack on McCain and the use of her own words outwiegh the attack on Obama as most people can see that both sides have praised McCain.

by Student Guy 2008-04-20 05:38PM | 0 recs
Re: It slams Obama

Obama has never said that McCain is better than Hillary.  If you believe he has than please provide a link.  Clinton has said that McCain is more prepared to be President.  Would you like a link or didn't you already know that?

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 05:52PM | 0 recs
I know that

but Obama has praised McCain's vast amount of service to the country (some 35+ years).

The Clinton's have praised McCain too.

All I said is that both sides praised McCain and downstream I said that there was hypocrisy due that very fact (see my response to RageKage).

by Student Guy 2008-04-20 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Nice diary

Thanks StudentGuy - much appreciated!

by alegre 2008-04-20 05:26PM | 0 recs
I've said before

You are a good writer and I appreciate reading good writing.  Also thanks for the attack on McCain,  he is bad (for multiple reasons that would make this post a diary due to the length).  I think all democrats can agree on that.

by Student Guy 2008-04-20 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: I've said before

Absolutely - and thanks for the kind words ;o)  THey're much appreicated given the way the trolls have hit this discussion so quickly tonight.

by alegre 2008-04-20 05:32PM | 0 recs
Re: I've said before

Trolls? So anyone who comments on your diary and doesn't agree with you is a troll???????????????????????????????

by venician 2008-04-20 05:49PM | 0 recs
Re: I've said before

Is that a rhetorical question?  I wouldn't expect an answer if I were you.

She just wants praise, no discussion, just praise.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: I've said before

When you write the diary, apparently you don't have to address substantive criticisms.

by rfahey22 2008-04-20 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: I've said before

People who disagree with you, or want to put your tendentious posts in some perspective, aren't trolls.

Really, such abusive rhetoric... I may just go on strike!!

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-20 05:57PM | 0 recs
Are you f-ing kidding me

"We need someone who'll take on McCain with everything she's got."

The Clintons have produced several soundbites for the Repubs...on experience, commander-in-chief, and finally patriotism (remember Bill's moment questioning patriotism).

You should delete this diary. Hillary should apologize for being disingenuous - and lets get back to the primary.

This diary is crap.

by Newcomer 2008-04-20 05:19PM | 0 recs
COL! Oh Wait - You're Serious?

Right - never mind.

by alegre 2008-04-20 05:28PM | 0 recs
It is kinda funny
ya'll jumpin all over Obama when for a week solid Bill and Hill had nothing but nice things to say about McCain.
CiC threshold, Mac and Hillary love their country and such.
by Drewid 2008-04-20 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Are you f-ing kidding me

I don't remember Bill's moment questioning Obama's patriotism.  I do remember some people performing valiant labor to interpret him that way when in fact he said something entirely different.

by Trickster 2008-04-20 07:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Are you f-ing kidding me

You are perhaps the only person on the planet with that view. He said it, he meant it, and he should be ashamed as a former POTUS.

by Newcomer 2008-04-20 09:30PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Hold on.

First of all, here you are again quoting large portions of text, having ignored our concerns from yesterday. I can understand being tired once or twice; again, I'm raising an infant all by myself; but really.

Second, are you going to reconcile this with Clinton's own statements about McCain and the CIC threshold? Are you going to ignore that Obama said, flat-out, Clinton would be far superior than McCain?

Come on, alegre, let's be a little honest here. Your reputation is at stake- I want to hear you address these serious concerns!

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:19PM | 0 recs
From what I can see

she only quoted a speech, she put the concerns about a McCain term in her own words.

The whole hypocrisy thing from Sen. Clinton is something to point out, but the author wrote out a decent part of the diary.

by Student Guy 2008-04-20 05:22PM | 0 recs
Re: From what I can see

Be that as it may- not a hit piece solely directed at Obama, which I will concede your point to- still, there were concerns that were never addressed.

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:30PM | 0 recs
Don't Hold Your Breath

waiting for me to address your "concerns" RK.  

Tell ya what - you guys stop spamming my posts and I might - MIGHT take your "concerns" even a little bit seriously.

by alegre 2008-04-20 05:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Don't Hold Your Breath

Sorry, Alegre, but I don't consider this spamming; spamming would be threadjacking in an attempt to focus the topic you're bringing up elsewhere. Here, we're trying to address a shortcoming or other fault we see in your diary.

If you can address it, and soundly put down our supposed "shortcoming", it makes you a better writer; even if you can't address it, perhaps it will give you better insight into your own work in the future. Experience is a harsh mistress, so to speak.

I'll reemphasize you have more writing talent, by far, than I. But this just strikes of disingenuity.

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:39PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Seriously RageKage - after the way you've trashed me and my candidate on these pages do you honestly think I'm going to take your "concerns" to heart?

by alegre 2008-04-20 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

What, when I said you could write circles around me? When I empathized with raising your kids and shared a personal story about my troubles doing so? When I rec'd and kudosed you in that discussion on the pregnant healthcare lady awhile back? And exactly when did I trash Clinton personally?

How about all the other people who voiced concerns? Come now, Alegre, even the most obvious one- you're ignoring the fact Clinton's engaged in the behavior you are apparently appalled at from Obama.

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

The fact that you've repeatedly spammed Alegre's diaries with accusations that Hillary supporters are trolls from freeperville doesn't give your "concerns" much credibility.

by KnowVox 2008-04-20 05:38PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Well, sir, other than the fact your statement there is a bald-faced lie, and that you share as much blame in that "spamming" as anyone else... well, heck, that's all there is. If you want to keep from "spamming" Alegre's diary, let's take this discussion elsewhere- or drop it entirely, since you cannot engage in it without misrepresenting my statements entirely.

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Spamming by ragekage

Well, here's a half dozen of your spam comments in just one recent diary. The names of the falsely accused have been deleted to protect the innocent. Your ability to rate comments and make recommendations was suspended that same day.

There's a XXXXX at Free Republic... seems to be active over there. That's not you, is it?
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/4/7/22 468/09790/66#66

So you are aware, I noticed there is a XXXXXX posting frequently on Free Republic. When I non-accusationally asked our XXXXXXX about it, he hide-rated the comment. So you may be talking with a Republican troll. Just FYI.
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/4/7/22 468/09790/101#101

Hey Jen- I noticed there was a XXXXXXX who posted frequently at Free Republic; I asked XXXXXXX if he was one and the same, and he hide-rated my comment. Interesting. Might want to take a look at that one.
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/4/7/22 468/09790/83#83

Jen, we've got someone here hide-rate abusing my comments. You might want to take a look in the hide-rate bin.
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/4/7/22 468/09790/91#91

Hey, dude, do me a favor and check out the hide-rate bin. We've got an abuser. You'll want to see why.
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/4/7/22 468/09790/92#92

Hey, hootie, check out the hide rate bin. Have some abuse going on. You'll see what I mean.
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/4/7/22 468/09790/93#93

XXXXXXXX why the zero ratings?
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/4/7/22 468/09790/98#98

by KnowVox 2008-04-20 05:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Spamming by ragekage

I'm sorry, sir, but you get a troll-rate for spamming the thread. This discussion should be held elsewhere or not at all.

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Spamming by ragekage

Sorry, but you're the one who falsely claimed you never made any of the comments above. BUSTED.

by KnowVox 2008-04-20 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Spamming by ragekage

"Repeatedly spammed alegre's diaries"

1) your post didn't prove that he spammed.  He called you out as a freeper, but he didn't spam.

2) You didn't prove that he repeatedly did this on multiple diaries.  All the comments were him complaining about your HR.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Spamming by ragekage

Sigh.

Sir, I never denied those comments; indeed, I explained them on the last comment of mine that you zero-rated. You zero-rated it, so you obviously ignored it, and so you're again you're not only lying, sir, but spamming the thread. Please desist in doing so.

by ragekage 2008-04-20 06:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Spamming by ragekage

That's not spamming.  It may have been a site violation, but it has nothing to do with spamming.

And I thought you said "diaries."  You only posted comments from one diary, where the majority of the comments were a complaint about HR usage.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 06:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Spamming by ragekage

These dairies likewise contain the same ragekage B.S.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/19/2331 59/671#182

http://mydd.com/comments/2008/4/19/22159 /4623/96#96

by KnowVox 2008-04-20 06:27PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Why do I always get the sense that Clinton's talking points are solely intended for low information voters?

by rfahey22 2008-04-20 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Low information voters?  Dude - you just earned a 1.  Hillary's supporters are just as informed as you guys - stop insulting us with this BS talking point.

by alegre 2008-04-20 05:30PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Really, so how do you explain today's talking point with all of the accolades Clinton herself (as well as Bill) have given to McCain so far?  I'll list them for you:

1) Commander-in-chief threshold;

2) Numerous praises about his patriotism (and BC's subtle dig on Obama's patriotism: "I think it would be a great thing if we had an election year where you had two people who loved this country and were devoted to the interest of this country,");

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/arc hives/14978.html

3) Bill Clinton praising McCain's stance on global warming and torture: "He said McCain was on the right side of issues like being against torture of enemy combatants and global warming, which 'just about crosses the bridge for them (Republicans).'"  

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/ 2008/03/clinton-praises.html

So yeah, I do stand by my words - according to Bill Clinton, who is working for Hillary's campaign, John McCain does sound a lot better than Bush.  Please explain to me how Clinton's new talking point makes any sense unless someone is just waking up from amnesia, if you can.

by rfahey22 2008-04-20 05:40PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Yeah - you may not have noticed this but Bill's not on the ballot this time.

Hillary is.

As for your BS talking point are low information voters I really have to thank you - you've provided me with a bit of motivation for my next diary.

by alegre 2008-04-20 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

So I take it that you agree with #1 then, which was Hillary's doing entirely.  Also, is Bill Clinton not an official campaign spokesperson?  Please don't make me go digging about for one of your diaries where you take an Obama surrogate to task.  

You're avoiding the issue, again.

by rfahey22 2008-04-20 06:11PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

By the way, before you get too worked up, I said that her talking points are aimed at low information voters, not that those comprise her entire constituency.  Both have such inviduals as supporters, but I find that Clinton's talking points tend to be more intellectually dishonest.  A perfect example are the dueling C-i-C/"he's qualified to be VP" memes that were trotted out earlier in the primaries.  The two memes are mutually inconsistent and were clearly targeted for two different audiences.  Unfortunately for the campaign, the media connected the dots.  This supposed gaffe involving McCain is just the latest instance where the words sound good when you don't consider anything that's been said or done before, but when you do, they make absolutely no sense.

by rfahey22 2008-04-20 06:25PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Oh, so it's perfectly ok to slam anything that Michelle Obama says, but not Bill. You people are full of double standards, all of you!!!!!!!!!!!!

by zep93 2008-04-21 08:20AM | 0 recs
Well there goes the flimsy leg

his GE campaign had to stand on.

Barack and his campaign have told us that McCain is more honorable than Hillary, that he isn't a warmonger and that he's not like Bush jr.

What's the reason to vote for Barack again?

by LatinoVoter 2008-04-20 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Well there goes the flimsy leg

And Clinton told us that Obama could totally whomp McCain up one side and down the other. Why vote for Clinton again?

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:24PM | 0 recs
She said that?

Her sentences usually have better words and structure than that.

by LatinoVoter 2008-04-20 05:34PM | 0 recs
Re: She said that?

Tee hee. Of course I was paraphrasing, but really, sir, she did say that.

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:40PM | 0 recs
Re: She said that?

You didn't deny his comment.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 06:15PM | 0 recs
Why would I?

He/she interpeted Hillary's answer one way and I interpreted it another. When Hillary said he could I noticed she didn't say he will or that it is a sure bet. Also make note of the fact that Hillary said she'd do anything in her power to get a Dem in the WH. So if he were to win against McCain it would be because Hillary reached out to her supporters and asked them to hold their noses and vote for Barack just so McCain wouldn't win.

by LatinoVoter 2008-04-20 07:41PM | 0 recs
This is how he begins his

run to the center-right.  He is appealing to republicans here, certainly, not to democrats. Since he cannot win all the democrats, he's signaling the republicans that he is a viable alternative.

Once again, I guess "mangled" words.  He could have said both dems would be better, McCain might be different than bush, but clearly not better.

"Unilateral disarmament".  Great.

by 4justice 2008-04-20 05:23PM | 0 recs
Re: This is how he begins his

He did say both Democrats were better than McCain. Feel free to correct yourself, sir.

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:25PM | 0 recs
like, duh

he didn't have to equate himself with McCain however, and didn't have to disarm himself.  It weakens him further in trying to draw distinctions from himself and the republicans in the general.

by 4justice 2008-04-20 05:30PM | 0 recs
Re: like, duh

Then I'd like to know if you're judging Clinton's CIC/Experience comment under the same light?

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:34PM | 0 recs
Re: like, duh

I really don't think it matters.  It may or may not be true, and it's not going to hurt Hillary Clinton or help John McCain, or really change the rhetoric surrounding what the general election is going to be about in any way.

On the one hand, John McCain is going to continue GWB's policies, but on the other hand, George W. Bush set the bar lower than anyone thought possible.  He's outside the normal stupid:evil:corrupt ratios that every other lousy president has lived under.

by Mostly 2008-04-20 05:37PM | 0 recs
Re: like, duh

True.  Bush set the bar lower than even I thought possible, and I had a lousy opinion of him from the start.  McCain sucks, but it's hard to believe he could be WORSE than the chimperator.

by Montague 2008-04-20 05:39PM | 0 recs
Re: like, duh

Unless he turns out to have serious apocalyptic invade Iran/restore the draft policies.

But everyone once in a while I just reflect on GWB, as if I was an observer who hadn't had the frog in the boiling water experience of actually living through it and I'm just blown away.

by Mostly 2008-04-20 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: like, duh

Right. The fact is, McCain WOULD be better than Bush... that's because just about any person alive today would be better than Bush!

by ratmach 2008-04-20 08:01PM | 0 recs
Re: This is how he begins his

Do you have any clue what you are talking about?

This is from alegre's diary:

You have a real choice in this election. Either Democrat would be better than John McCain...And all three of us would be better than George Bush."

Please engage brain before typing...

by bawbie 2008-04-20 05:28PM | 0 recs
Re: This is how he begins his

   He did say both Dems would be better. Are you deaf?
by southernman 2008-04-20 05:46PM | 0 recs
And another thing...

A cucumber could be a better president than GW Bush...so I dont the statement is all that crazy.

by Newcomer 2008-04-20 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: And another thing...

But the question is - do you think a cucumber loves America as much as you do?

by Mostly 2008-04-20 05:30PM | 0 recs
Re: And another thing...

And does the cucumber wear a flag pin?

by politicsmatters 2008-04-20 05:34PM | 0 recs
Re: And another thing...

You know for some strange reason that's making me cross my legs and wince.

by Mostly 2008-04-20 05:43PM | 0 recs
OH CRAP!!!

Look he just formed an exploratory committee for a third party bid!?

by Obamanaut 2008-04-20 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: OH CRAP!!!

Is that cucumber supposed to look like Bill Clinton?  Because it kinda does.

by Mostly 2008-04-20 05:58PM | 0 recs
Re: OH CRAP!!!

Larry has the right-wing vote locked up!

This could be very good for the DEMS!

;o)

by FOB92 2008-04-20 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

I really should stop thinking Clinton hypocrisy can't sink to a new low, I keep being proved wrong.

After "Sen. McCain has a lifetime of experience, I have a lifetime of experience, Sen. Obama has one speech in 2002" she has zero credibility in this area.

by Obama Independent 2008-04-20 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

jinx!

by Mostly 2008-04-20 05:30PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

"I have a lifetime of experience.  John McCain has a lifetime of experience.  Barack Obama has a speech he made in 2002."

by Mostly 2008-04-20 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

"At a rally last night in Harrisburg, though, Obama said that's not a very high standard. "Senator Clinton will be vastly better than George Bush would be, but that's a very low bar; that's not good enough," he told some 9,000 at a rally on the steps of the state capitol."

Ouch.

by edmandspath 2008-04-20 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

if Obama stated that, then I guess that nulls out the CIC thresh-hold comment that Clinton made a while back.

That was just as uncalled for as her statement was.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-20 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

No, it really wasn't.

He's not elevating John McCain above either himself or Hillary Clinton in any way.

by Mostly 2008-04-20 05:39PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Cole,

He said "vastly."  He was denigrating with the low bar.  He said Bush set the low bar.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Oops.  I meant "He WASN'T denigrating her with the low bar."

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

by ragekage 2008-04-20 05:36PM | 0 recs
The thing is

when he says stuff like this, he is defining himself as the "anti-clinton".  That's not enough for me in a President.  Why can't he talk about his plans?  Instead he just trashes HRC, does his snobby thing by "the bar is set too low", but gives us not one iota of what the bar should be.  

I don't think this is a particularly inspiring or graceful remark.

by 4justice 2008-04-20 05:39PM | 0 recs
Re: The thing is

I've definitely heard better from him.

by Mostly 2008-04-20 05:44PM | 0 recs
Re: The thing is

you do realize that his speeches are longer than one sentence, right?

He talks about his plans.  That just doesn't get reported.  

He's been talking about his plans for 15 months.

by bawbie 2008-04-20 05:48PM | 0 recs
Re: The thing is

Yes, you have to go outside of mydd if you want to see his speeches about policy.  I suggest youtube, user BarackObamaDotCom.  You can find speeches from 1 minute to 60 minutes on all of his policies in speeches across the country, including PA.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 06:22PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

I agree with Obama , Mccain would be better than Bush.

Bush is a numb skull.

Hillary Clinton should let it go , it is very disingenous .

by lori 2008-04-20 05:35PM | 0 recs
Who's zooming who?

"I think that since we now know Sen. (John) McCain will be the nominee for the Republican Party, national security will be front and center in this election. We all know that. And I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold," the New York senator told reporters crowded into an infant's bedroom-sized hotel conference room in Washington.

"I believe that I've done that. Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that and you'll have to ask Sen. Obama with respect to his candidacy," she said.

Calling McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee a good friend and a "distinguished man with a great history of service to our country," Clinton said, "Both of us will be on that stage having crossed that threshold. That is a critical criterion for the next Democratic nominee to deal with."

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-20 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

My cat, Fred Hollywood, would be a better president that George W. Bush.

Right now he's licking plastic.

by Mostly 2008-04-20 05:40PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

My three-year-old nephew would be a better President.  But sadly it's unconstitutional.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

if this diary makes the rec'd list im gonna throw up

by aaaa05 2008-04-20 05:40PM | 0 recs
...and heeeeeere's Bill:

"He paid as high a price as you can pay to serve this country without getting killed, and we have to honor that," Clinton said. "[And] he has some redeeming qualities for a Republican: he doesn't believe in toture, he supported campaign finance reform and he doesn't think global warming is a myth...

He's cheating on his own CFR, and has rarely ever voted to protect the environment, just talks about it.

The most morally important factor: McCain doesn't believe in torture, he just votes for it. Several times.

You'd think a Democrat might be interested in highlighting McCain hypocrisy and the hollowness of the "principled maverick" MSM myth about the GOP nominee.

Whatever could Bill Clinton's interest be....?

by BlueinColorado 2008-04-20 05:43PM | 0 recs
Re: ...and heeeeeere's Bill:

I totally forgot about that - when the Big Dog just started praising him effusively and undeservedly with no particular point.

Different than Hillary and Obama's standard formulation of "We honor John McCain's service.  But...."

by Mostly 2008-04-20 05:46PM | 0 recs
Alegre


    Hillary has said that McCain has passed the Commander in Chief threshold. That he would be a better CIC than Obama.

   Do you agree with that statement? If you don't, then shut up and quit complaining about Obama. If you do, well then forgive us yellow dogs for questioning your Democratic credentials.

by southernman 2008-04-20 05:44PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Speaking of potentially damaging soundbites, here's what Obama said on November 8, 2004 (he was sworn into the US Senate on Jan 4, 2005) when asked if he'd consider running for President:

OBAMA:
I am um... a believer in knowing what you're doing when you apply for a job and I think that if I were to seriously consider running on a national ticket I would essentially have to start now before having served a day in the Senate. Now there are some people who might be comfortable doing that but I'm not one of those people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK1M5Ioh_ Lo

How's he going to explain that away against McCain? Honest question Obama supporters, how will he rebut that? What happened between then and now to change his mind? Hopefully he'll come up with a better response than he has on some of his other tight spots.

More and more Obama seems like an open-mouth-insert-foot novice. You can blame Hillary Clinton for holding his feet to the flames, but he's the one lighting these fires that he continually needs to dose.

by twinmom 2008-04-20 05:46PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Obama: "Either Democrat would be better than McCain."

Clinton: "I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold. I believe that I've done that. Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that."

Clinton: ""I have a lifetime of experience.  John McCain has a lifetime of experience.  Barack Obama has a speech he made in 2002."

The purpose of Obama's quote was to promote the Democrats over McCain. The purpose of Clinton's quotes was to promote herself over Obama.

by jdusek 2008-04-20 05:48PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

ok.... and I can remember that other candidates past & present do the same thing - promote themselves over the others.

look - I believe her statement was tacky, but my god, this is primary season.  This is nothing, really, when you look at previous seasons - just saying.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-20 05:52PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

That is why I liked Alegre taking on McCain . . . but it is hypocritical to tear Obama down for a comment that was less charged than HRC's CIC threshold comment.

I just wish Alegre would at least acknowledge that point. She would earn mega-kudos.

by FOB92 2008-04-20 06:06PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

http://www.attacktimeline.com/

The biggest myth of this entire primary season is that Obama has run a clean, positive campaign and has not engaged in personal attacks against Hillary Clinton.

By repeating his mantra he has convinced the media and his supporters that he is a new kind of politician, but many of us know the truth. I'm not saying Hillary is beyond reproach, just that they have been equally tough and attacking.

by twinmom 2008-04-20 06:07PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

I'm not saying Obama is beyond reproach either. I'm saying Obama's comments about McCain elevate BOTH candidates above the Republican nominee. Clinton can't make the same claim, so I don't get the point of this diary.

by jdusek 2008-04-20 06:15PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

And where is the diarist? She writes a hit piece and when people start to make comments she doesn't agree with she calls us all Trolls and runs away. This is the same behavior that she exibited over at kos. We were trying to have a discussion while she just wanted to Attack Obama and not have to defend her own words. In my book she has now lost all credibility.

by venician 2008-04-20 05:58PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

she was posting not too long ago.   It may be late in her timezone - it is 10 pm on the east coast now and it is a work day tomorrow.

Algere is not one to back down - I don't go to kos, so I can only speak to what I have noticed here.

by colebiancardi 2008-04-20 06:01PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

I don't agree with either of them giving McCain any room.  Obama should get himself a pin made up with that picture of McCain with his arms wrapped around Bush's torso, and not say another word about McCain being better than Bush.  Bush is McCain.  That should be the slogan.  He must not have seen the McBush Commercial using that picture and interchanging McCains head with McBush's.  That's the way to go.

by Scotch 2008-04-20 06:01PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

You may be right.  It's a tactical question as opposed to a political question.

Here's a counter-argument: if you base your entire campaign on Bush=McCain, you open yourself up to being undermined everytime McCain pays lip service to global warming.

I think either Democrat can run on the war and run on the economy and whomp John McCain.  Haven't made up my mind on the best way to frame it yet.

by Mostly 2008-04-20 06:25PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

I think it is pretty clear that Obama thinks what I think on this which is, yeah, McCain would be better than Bush.

That doesn't speak well of McCain, necessarily.  My dirty underwear would make a better president than Bush.  

That is because in the long history of this nation, there has never been anyone worse in the role than Bush, and yes, that includes Buchanan.  I used to think Buchanan still had a shot at retaining the Worst president Ever Sash, and then we destroyed habeas corpus and then he had a gathering round yon table for a fun and friendly discussion of exactly when and how we would waterboard the shit out of detainees who may or may not (or may not) been al Qaeda operatives.

Pardon my French, but my poo would make a better President than Bush because my poo, being a mostly inanimate substance, would not have the ability to veto stem cell research or issue signing statements.  Thus would my poo be a better Chief Executive than Bush.  

I think about 90% of Americans understand what he was saying, alegre.  But perhaps he said it with his middle finger extended at a Bill Ayers Weatherman meeting.  Whatever you want to believe.    

by LarsThorwald 2008-04-20 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

obama has lots of nice things to say about republicans. they're the party of ideas, according to him. i guess that is why he's attacking universal health care from the right.

by campskunk 2008-04-20 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Well, one of our party leaders told Obama that McCain has passed the CIC threshold. He is speaking accordingly.

by lizardbox 2008-04-20 06:17PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Did you get that from HRC's anti-Republican Party playbook?

Tell me, is it left or right when a leader wants to garnish your wages for something that you can't afford.

Because it could be fascist, but it could also be communist.  It's hard to choose.

by The Distillery 2008-04-20 06:27PM | 0 recs
You know where else you see entries

with a whole lot of quotes and little original content? hillaryis44's front page. Just an observation.

by lizardbox 2008-04-20 06:16PM | 0 recs
McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

It seems that this is a glimpse to the general election, that he was ignoring Hillary.  He's playing those cordial politics that he and McCain have "temporarily agreed" to.

by venavena 2008-04-20 06:22PM | 0 recs
Thank God she posted another diary this weekend.

by OhPlease 2008-04-20 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

OH HELL NO. Are you so blind that you don't see the tv ad this will spring? All they have to do is juxtapose Hillary saying McCain is better than Obama alongside this. And BOOM. Instantly loses more credibility.

At the very BEST, what this statement means logically is that she thinks Obama would be worse than Bush. And that is a very stupid thing to say.

Hillary is losing it. Between this and MoveOn, I wonder if she's even trying anymore.

by vcalzone 2008-04-20 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

And, of course, Obama is right, McCain WOULD be better than Bush. He just would have Bush's disastrous policies, that's all. If you want to run on the meme that McCain is just as pig-headed, ignorant, deceitful and narcissistic as Bush, feel free. But everyone will see through it, and THEN guess who looks dishonest once again?

by vcalzone 2008-04-20 06:43PM | 0 recs
I used to get upset ...

with points like this one by alegre. I mean some people have nerves. This is Hillary Clinton we are talking about. The one that has passed the threshold. The threshold that Barack Obama has not. You know what alegre? You can say whatever you want. I am not getting upset anymore. I'll just go to Obama's site and donate another $10 and $20. Keep doing what you are doing. It won't last long anyways. Here is the bottom line. It will be the will of the people. Directly (pledged) or indirectly (super). I suggest that you get used to the idea. IT IS OVER.

by hania 2008-04-20 06:48PM | 0 recs
Clinton said McCain has passed the CIC

threshold. Does she think GWB has as well or something?

by RLMcCauley 2008-04-20 06:50PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

I wish there was another debate to discuss this issue, the Obama "bird", whether or not the Easter bunny exists, etc.  You know.  Important stuff.

Seriously, Clinton folks.  This grasping at straws stuff is doing absolutely nothing to get a democrat in the white house.

Clinton is going to win by 5-10 points on Tuesday and gain 15-20 delegates on Obama.  Then people (and the supers) are going to look ahead and see that Hillary is 120+ delegates down with little chance to make them up.  They're also going to see the current tone of the primary and start/continue to move towards Obama.

We need to start focusing on McCain.  

by chewie5656 2008-04-20 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

The even better news is that with a 10 point win, at least one analysis says that it would only produce a 9 delegate swing.

If this is what the HRC campaign is coming up with now, then their polling must put the race as tightening up as well

by xenontab 2008-04-21 05:59AM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

You know what, I think McCain would be better than Bush. I also think that argument is pretty flimsy. I think most of us can agree that saying someone would be better than Bush is kind of like saying I'd rather have one knee broken instead of having both broken.

Furthermore, I don't see how Senator Clinton can make this kind of attack after the way she treated McCain earlier--saying that Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience and Obama has a speech he made in 2002.

I find her argument both hypocritical and specious, and, frankly, algere, I find your diary on it a cheap shot.

by shef 2008-04-20 07:31PM | 0 recs
Alegre has officially jumped the shark

You are complaining that Obama said McCain would be better than Bush when he ALSO said that both he and Clinton would be better than McCain...

Where was your outrage when Clinton TWICE made comments that alluded to the idea that McCain would be a better Commander in Chief than Obama?

Your vitriolic, inane, and divisive tone has been annoying up until now. But you have now passed annoying into laughable.

The fact that you wrote this diary and got all of your friends to recommend it shows just how much you care about the Democratic party...not at all. You care about Clinton getting elected and thats it... I am so sick of the absurdity of the recommended diaries here...

Its a joke.

by JDF 2008-04-20 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

OH MY GAWD!

Don't you realize that this is the kind of stuff that makes people even more disgusted with your candidate.  At least I can admit it when Obama says something lame or takes a cheap shot, when Hillary does it you broadcast it as widely as you can so that everyone can know just how petty she has been.  I am so freaking tired of this bull.

by Renie 2008-04-20 07:44PM | 0 recs
McCain Better Than Bush? I agree

I am 100% for Hillary. I will vote for Obama if he is the nominee. But I think that McCain is better than Bush too. Not that that's saying much.

McCain, although I realize he comes from a priveleged background, has at least accomplished some things on his own in his life. Bush is, was, and will always be a big, fat nothing. Without his Daddy's name, money, connections, and legacy, Bush would have been an obvious, complete, and total failure at everything he tried--school, business, and politics. Bush also had his Daddy pull strings so he could avoid going to Vietnam, while at the same time pretend that he is a veteran. He chose the easiest, and the sleaziest, solution to the dilemma facing many young men in the 1960's. The contrast here with McCain is too obvious to mention. While McCain's policies might be just as bad, or even worse, than Bush's, I still think that McCain is a better person, and would be a better President, than Bush.

by freemansfarm 2008-04-20 07:49PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? I agree

Wow. An Obama supporter agreeing with a Hillary supporter? Yep. I'm with you 100%. Even though, policy-wise, McCain probably wouldn't be much better than the slime who goes by the name of George W. Bush, there's no WAY can he be as fundamentally evil.

by ratmach 2008-04-20 07:56PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? I agree

Yeah, it would be pretty hard for someone to be worse than or equal to Bush.  He's in a category all by himself.  I wonder if people felt that way about Grant or Harding.

by rfahey22 2008-04-20 08:12PM | 0 recs
Grant and Harding

Bush couldn't hold a candle to Grant. Grant made his reputation as a great general all by himself. And, while there was corruption in his administration, Grant was not personally corrupt. As President, Grant refused to sell out the African Americans in the South. Grant's personal memoirs about the Civil War are excellent (so good, in fact, that some speculate that his friend Mark Twain either wrote or helped him write them). He wrote them so his wife could live in comfort after he died (he had cancer from all the cigar smoking), and got, I think, like $75k for them--a fortune in those days. Soon after completing them, he died.

Harding, on the other hand, I've never heard anyone make a case for.

by freemansfarm 2008-04-21 04:59AM | 0 recs
He's right. McCain WOULD be better than Bush

And Nixon or Reagan would also be better than Bush.

So would Donald Duck.

Same for Britney Spears.

And my 9-year-old nephew.

Got it now? What Obama said about McCain is NOT necesarilly a compliment. In fact, it can just as easily be interpreted as, "No one, even John McCain, could possibly be as bad as George W. Bush."

By the way, that's a FAR cry from Hillary's comments about McCain being better than Obama... or haven't you figured that out yet?

by ratmach 2008-04-20 07:53PM | 0 recs
Echo chamber? Are you kidding me? Start

at the beginning of this thread and read through to the bottom. If you think that's an echo chamber then you are hearing things!

by Rumarhazzit 2008-04-20 08:00PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?


"I think that since we now know Sen. (John) McCain will be the nominee for the Republican Party, national security will be front and center in this election. We all know that. And I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold," the New York senator told reporters crowded into an infant's bedroom-sized hotel conference room in Washington.

"I believe that I've done that. [b]Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that[/b] and you'll have to ask Sen. Obama with respect to his candidacy," she said.

Calling McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee a good friend and a [b]"distinguished man with a great history of service to our country,"[/b] Clinton said, "Both of us will be on that stage having crossed that threshold. That is a critical criterion for the next Democratic nominee to deal with."

...

"I think that I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. [b]Sen. John McCain has a lifetime of experience that he'd bring to the White House.[/b] And Sen. Obama has a speech he gave in 2002."

She has to be joking, right?

by Grant Caesar Peters 2008-04-20 08:00PM | 0 recs
Kidding - Right?

You know what - as a Clinton supporter I am really not into this diary.  Honestly, Barack is right: McCain would be better than Bush imo.  At least he seems to acknowledge that the environment exists.  I see him running a somewhat cleaner shop.

Is it a sin to say so?

I think Hillary was clever to pick up on it and take a shot at McCain and Obama in one swipe.  So, definitely clever.

But why make an issue out of this, really..

I prefer we talk about how our candidate has a smarter tax policy and better healthcare plan.

by bobbank 2008-04-20 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Kidding - Right?

Not that clever since she has praised McCain before.

by RLMcCauley 2008-04-20 08:45PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

No not kidding, it's referred to as regression to the mean.  Bush is waaaaaay out on the distribution, a pile of steaming crap would do a better job!

These comment sections on the other hand don't appear to regress to the mean.  They seem to follow the rules of entropy more closely.  Very depressing to read.  I have to say Alegre, your diaries have really degraded into what appears to be intentionally inflammatory, from positive pieces about Clinton, to this.  I really think you are trying to bring out the worst in Obama supporters.

by jontabb 2008-04-20 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Alegre, I'm glad you've written a diary highlighting Hillary's hypocrisy.

This is the first of your diaries I'm recommending!

by gcensr 2008-04-20 08:18PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

We need a nominee who will take on John McCain, not cheer on John McCain, and I will be that nominee.

And when will she start doing that?  

Piecing together what we've heard from her so far, in Hillary's world I guess it's Bush > McCain > Obama.

by freedom78 2008-04-20 08:22PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

This diary is a joke.

1.) Hillary and Bill Clinton have effusively praised John McCain over the last couple of months, even elevating John McCain above Barack Obama with the CIC threshold nonsense.

2.) Nobody could possibly be as bad as George W. Bush, the worst president in the history of the United States.  To say that John McCain would be a better president is like saying "John McCain is a human."

It's impossible to be honest with yourself and actually believe that Obama's statement is a gaffe.  I can smell the desperation.

By the way, Allegre -- if John McCain will be as bad or worse than GWB, will you be voting for him in the fall when Obama is the Democratic nominee?

by chinapaulo 2008-04-20 08:28PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Chinapaulo,

I wonder if you've found a nugget of zen strategy in Obama's "off-message" statement about McCain.

After all, something like a quarter of Clinton supporters say that they will defect to McCain rather than vote for Obama.

This could be a rather sly way of addressing that problem in a hurry before the nomination contest ends: Get Clinton supporters to commit to the idea that McCain really is a stinker. Channel that animus where it belongs, so that when the game changes, we're all on the same side.

Maybe. Just maybe.

by baudelairien 2008-04-20 08:49PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

A clever thought, if that is Obama's strategy...  but I doubt it.

I kinda like the idea, though.  Obama tricks Hillary into raising the specter of a McCain presidency to get her supporters over firmly on the Democratic side before the nomination is entirely sewn up.  Not too shabby...

by chinapaulo 2008-04-20 09:10PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

If this is one of the worst comments that Obama has said, he's clearly a better orator than I ever imagined. For one, it's true. Anyone who's as bad as Bush is in jail, the only reason he's not is because he's the president. For two, it elevates the party, not the candidate. He wants a Democrat over a Republican. Clinton seems to want herself over anyone else.

As for Clinton's response, I disagree with her audience on all points. McCain may not have a plan, but he's not actively undermining the country. McCain wants us to stay in Iraq for 100 years, Bush wants us to stay in Iran for 100 years. McCain won't try to get our economy out of the hole, Bush dug the hole himself. McCain is clueless on healthcare, Bush wanted to end social security by privatizing it. McCain doesn't know what to do about the various crises that Bush caused, but at least he didn't cause them.

Either Democrat is better than the terrorists winning and McCain getting elected.

by Okamifujutsu 2008-04-20 08:47PM | 0 recs
I am calling bullshit - for a second time.

I knew when I returned this shite of a diary would be on the list.

You can cut and paste your gung-ho diaries backing HRC - but this is ridiculous and should be deleted.

Just to recap:

1) "I think that since we now know Sen. (John) McCain will be the nominee for the Republican Party, national security will be front and center in this election. We all know that. And I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold," "I believe that I've done that. Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that and you'll have to ask Sen. Obama with respect to his candidacy," she said. Calling McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee a good friend and a "distinguished man with a great history of service to our country," Clinton said, "Both of us will be on that stage having crossed that threshold. That is a critical criterion for the next Democratic nominee to deal with."

2) "She said she and McCain had traveled to Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan together as she repeated a line that surfaced from the campaign trail. She and McCain "bring a lifetime of experience to the campaign, Clinton said..."

3) ... on the campaign trail today in Charlotte, North Carolina, the former president said a general election matchup between his wife, Sen. Clinton, and Sen. John McCain would be between "two people who love this country" without "all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."

Finally - what exactly is incorrect about Obama's statement? He says the 2 dems are better than McCain (something HRC would never do) and then says McCain would be better than Bush. Not that much of a stress considering (as I pointed out above) a cucumber could improve on the Bush Admin.

Say anything, Do anything.

by Newcomer 2008-04-20 09:09PM | 0 recs
And about your Dems for a Day

You are being quite naive if you think HRC's victories in OH and TX were without a little push from Operation Chaos. I know you want to rail on indies and repubs who actually want something/someone different...but HRCs non-dem votes are certainly not coming back in Nov. We have been (and are still being) bamboozled by the right.

by Newcomer 2008-04-20 09:12PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

So, lets get this straight...

Clinton thinks that McCain is the same as Bush
(McCain = Bush)

Clinton thinks that she is much better than Obama
(Clinton >>>> Obama)

Clinton thinks that McCain is better than Obama
(McCain > Obama)

Therefore, Hillary's view is:
Clinton>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>McCain/Bush>Obama

Obama's view:  Obama > Clinton >>>>>>>>>> >>McCain>Bush

by smoothmedia 2008-04-20 09:46PM | 0 recs
I won't beat the dead horse

but all I have to say is lol

Shark...Jump...Pot...Kettle

lol

by Sychotic1 2008-04-20 10:14PM | 0 recs
Obama loves to shoot his feet

he is a virtual gaffe machine. First, "typical white person," then "they're bitter...they cling to guns and religion" and now basically fucking over the case against McCain. MCCAIN IS BUSH. Obama speaks his fucking mind too much. McCain is no improvement. McCain will fall asleep in the Oval Office more than Bush actually day dreams. McCain is gonna use this. its not like, if Obama's the nominee, he can brush it off, as he would with Hillarys "CIC test/MCCain" comment in which he could say "that wasn't me," now, McCain will use Obama's own words. This guy is Jimmy Carter. says too much shit he shouldn't say, and could morph himself right into Michael Dukakis, who should have beat his opponent, and snatched defeat form the jaws of victory. If we thought Dukakis looked good in a tank, and his answer on the death penalty was just swell, even tho his opponent was lagging in the polls, I wonder what Obama is gonna do. Will he do something dumb enough to launch McCain like Dukakis launched Bush in the polls to an election day landslide? Bush and Dukakis were close before the debates in 1988. This race could just be 1988 all over again.

by DiamondJay 2008-04-20 11:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama loves to shoot his feet

All Obama said is that McCain is better than Bush. That's not a compliment. If McCain tries to use that, Obama can just point out just how badly Bush screwed over America, and that McCain is on the same level as him. If anything, McCain is going to quote Hillary's commander in chief threshold comment, or her lifetime of experience comment, since she won't be there to defend herself.

You don't need to worry about Obama, he can take care of himself.

by Okamifujutsu 2008-04-21 12:29AM | 0 recs
but he said McCain is better than Bush

and why even give him "being better?" Why not McSAME? If McCain quotes Hillary, at least its not out of Obama, the actual candidate's mouth.

by DiamondJay 2008-04-21 05:58AM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Wait, nevermind the hypocrisy, are we actually debating whether this is true? John McCain is a big improvement over Bush; anyone is a big improvement over Bush.

by amiches 2008-04-21 12:46AM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

No, this is one of algere's diaries, not a place for debate. Clearly you're a Obama[insert silly word here] troll.

by Okamifujutsu 2008-04-21 12:57AM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Ummm...nothing could be as bad as Bush, outside of Dick Cheney.  We all know McCain will be a slight improvement on disastrous...it still makes him terrible.  Get a clue.

by gorebeatbush2 2008-04-21 01:46AM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Of course McCain would be better then Bush, why is this even up for debate?  We can say that and also say that he will be bad for America.  Why is Algere trying to hit Obama so hard for telling the truth?

by Bobby Obama 2008-04-21 04:50AM | 0 recs
In his defense.....

my left testicle would be better than Bush.

by IowaMike 2008-04-21 05:58AM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

To review facts now.  Obama has just said that Hillary is better than John McCain.  In the CIC speech, Hillary said that John McCain is better than Obama.  So one Democrat is saying the other Democrat is better than the Republican, and the other is saying that the Republican is better than the Democrat.

So all she is doing is reinforcing the negative impression of her.  If the CIC speech is played again the media will have a field day.

No wonder the campaign is in trouble.  Between this and acting as if the Trib endorsement is a big deal they are giving fresh evidence of a dysfunctional campaign

by xenontab 2008-04-21 06:06AM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

From last Survey USAPoll

"A large shift of support occurred in the Philadelphia area and other parts of Southeast Pennsylvania, which includes most of the state's African-American population. The poll found that Obama finished strongly, ahead of Clinton by 14 points within that demographic. Among liberals, Obama began 18 points behind Clinton but finished 11 points ahead of Clinton. Among those who have not graduated from college, Clinton led by 28 points last week, but by 15 points Monday.

Among voters under age 50, Clinton had led by 8 points last week and trailed by 8 Monday."

http://www.nbc10.com/politics/15943088/d etail.html?dl=mainclick

by nogo war 2008-04-21 06:12AM | 0 recs
Shaking my head

I was shaking my head in disbelief when I heard that statement from Obama.  What could he possibly be trying to accomplish by saying McCain would be better than Bush?  How incredibly foolish and unnecessary.  It will stick too.  That statement will come back to haunt him, a la ... " Even Senator Obama thinks McCain would be an improvement over Bush "

In the last couple months, I can just see the Republican campaign ads creating themselves with the some of the statements by Obama and with some of the things coming out of his closet.  What a nightmare.  

How the heck did we go from having a whole slate of good candidates against a panel of fools in the Republican primary, to the situation we're in now, where it's unclear whether we can even win the election in '08?  How did this happen?

There are days when I feel like Obama is simply going to hand them the election.  There are times when I feel like he's taking every misconception about Democrats that Republicans have capitalized on over the years, and every smear they've used against us, and after all the work we've done on these issues to turn things around, he's handing them back to the Republicans as weapons.

by joanneleon 2008-04-21 06:16AM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

Yeah McCain will be better than Bush, Hillary will be better than MCcain and Obama will be better than Hillary. Deal with that fact or maybe go and have a life. All these three don't give a hoot about any of you spending so much energy worried about all this... when you think about it, is that the purpose of our lives?

by er1975 2008-04-21 07:15AM | 0 recs
A rock would be better than Bush.

Can we have just a little honesty here, instead of inane politicking?

by grasshopper 2008-04-21 08:10AM | 0 recs
Re: McCain Better Than Bush? He's Kidding - Right?

George W. Bush has already been declared by the majority of historians as the worst President in U.S. history. A chimpanzee would literally be a major improvement. I don't think it's much of a compliment for Obama to say that McCain would be better than GW.

by dmc2 2008-04-21 09:38AM | 0 recs
Um...yeah

I'm not sure how much weight or credibility Hillary's response carries, seeing that she has also praised McCain as having pass the mythical "presidential threshhold."

by jaywillie 2008-04-21 11:05AM | 0 recs
So tell me:
Are you just cataclysmically unself-aware or are you cataclysmically untruthful?
Either way, it doesn't make you look good.
After the way Clinotn has been systematically and cynically tearing down Obama for months--even to the point of praising McCain to Obama's detriment--how can you seriously write this crap?
I feel sorry for you.
by Mumphrey 2008-04-21 11:08AM | 0 recs

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