Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

I was going to write this as a response to a blog that was calling for Democratic Unity and once again for Sen. Clinton to quit. But as I began to write the comment I realized that it was more complicated than a simple sentence or two. I doubt if anyone will read this anymore than anything else that I've written here at myDD. With a few exceptions you have shown from the beginning that you don't think this old Southerner counts for much. Here I was looking for representation folks. Here I was looking for answers. And you showed me none.

Now you want me to forgive and forget and happily vote for Sen. Obama? You would call me and other Southern Democrats racist but not call him on his choice of spiritual leaders? Hmmm.
Let's be friends???

Sorry ya'll. But the hypocrisy in this primary has been amazing. I can not over look it.

Ah sure. Let's all join hands and sing, "We are all Democrats now." After this primary? Nope we are not. And that isn't Sen. Clinton's fault. Nope. She just did what she promised her supporters she'd do. Stay in the race until all the folks had a chance to be heard. I admire her for that. No quitter this woman.  

I've tried to be balanced in watching the two candidates for Democratic nominee. I really have. It's been difficult to watch. I've asked what the two sides strategy was for the South. And was told we didn't count enough to rate a stategy. I heard some mean thing directed toward southerners. When Mississippi voted in strong numbers for Sen Obama, Democrats came out and said that these were just Republicans in Democrats clothing. I was told that Southern Democrats were just old racists. Yep. Old Racists. Oh basically? I was told my vote didn't count. From the party who stopped a presidential election in 2000 in order for the vote to count. Was told that the Demcratic Party could chose their nominee any dang way they wanted too and they chose to disenfrancise the voters of two states.  

Well guess what. During the General Election? My vote very much counts. I can vote for whomever I dang well please too. Just thought you should know. While you are busy telling me I don't count. :o! My vote does too count. :D

Yeppers it sure does.  

I'm not trying to attack anyone here. We all are entitled to our beliefs. And I mean no disrespect to anyone here at myDD. I just respectfully disagree with the folks who say every thing is all fine and dandy. It is not.

From the Michigan/Florida dispute? From the constant media barage of she's lost from the beginning?  From the constant call from the Obama folks for Sen. Clinton to quit before Super Tuesday! This entire proceedure has been an embarassment. Not easy for Democrats in a majority Republican State. In a state where not only the national vote but also the state offices have trended Republican. And the state is doing VERY WELL under the Republican leadership. Difficult to point to this primary and say, "Let's all Vote Democrat! We'll be better off." After this primary they don't believe that for a minute. And trust me you had the chance to change that in our state. Instead  the Democrats in our state were told loud and clear, "Your vote doesn't count." Can you imagine how that plays to Southern Democrats. Who are Democrats by the way. I guess you'll go find one who's fine with it but good luck with a majority..

I'm sorry. Actually better for a Southern Democrat in my state to vote for Senator McCain. Yeppers I said it. Because the Democrats backing Sen. Obama haven't given the Southern Democrat a safe harbor. You didn't in the 2004 election when Sen. John Kerry said he didn't need the south to win. He did. And he lost in the national election. With Republicans and Southern Democrats looking for another choice besides President Bush?  With all the negatives coming out about Iraq? You're telling them that you don't need their vote?? What happened to we're all  Americans and welcome.

In our state we have more than just lip service involvement with the war in Iraq. In our state there is a significant number of folks fighting in Iraq. They're going to need more than just the lip service support to bring them home that I'm seeing from Sen. Obama. And they're going to need healthcare when they come back. At least I'm pretty sure Sen. McCain will do that. Obama, for all his promises to bring the soldier home soon, well let's just say his actions indicate he'll do otherwise. Neither Senators McCain or Obama will bring the soldier home. At least with McCain, my fellow citizens will get the healthcare and support that they need. They won't from Sen. Obama and he'll be making excuses about it.

Again I am not trying to "pot stir" or be disrespectful to the other bloggers here at myDD. You're probably going to ignore this anyway. Just like you ignored it when Sen. Obama's spiritual leader used the "N" word. A word I consider so offensive that I won't have said in my house. By anyone. Ever. Not even my mama on Mother's Day.  And you're on the frontlines of the fight for racial equality? And yet you say it's fine to use that horrid word? Yeah right.

Oh and just so we're all on the same page. Not a wild eyed crazy person here. Not going to go out and vent my flustrations by some stupid act. I'm a grown up. I don't handle my life that way. Instead I exercise my right to free speech.

I just respectfully disagree with you.

Which is more than some folks here have done for me.

Let the ignoring begin. I don't care. I can ignore you too. In the voting booth. Where it counts. I'm just going to say I told you so now. Don't do that normally. But after this primary I earned the right to say it.

Peace and love from ole 12dogs. Woof.

ADDED LATER Thanks to the people who took time to respond to this post. Far from being ignored, there were alot of comments. Some were abit cheeky. But most were really good informative comments. I have tried to ask everyone who posted to come back at a future time (maybe this weekend) to continue this discussion. If you have anything for me to read like some posters did. Post in comments and I will definately do my best to read them so as to be prepared for comment. To folk who are just finding this diary posting welcome. I'm out of my DD for the afternoon 5/7/08 But I will certainly try to be back in tonight and certainly during the weekend. If you can be here at a certain time post it in the comments. I will try to organize a group discussion on this issue. Learning alot here. I must say after all the fussing between the Obama and Clinton camps I was just sick of the whole election and frankly ready to be either ignored for this post about McCain or stomped on because of it. But I'm praying really hard that the folks who have stayed and responded to this post will come back and discuss further. Again I'm learning. At least I hope so. I am an old dawg but unlike the canine variety I can learn new tricks. :D Thank you so much. I am sorry that I had to leave so soon. Best regards, Come back, 12 dogs.

Tags: McCain Clinton Obama (all tags)

Comments

74 Comments

Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

Yes I said it.

And I meant it too.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 04:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

well if you really believe McCain is better on the issues, that is your right to believe.

you are on a democratic site, we will all well mostly all disgaree,

Obama's health plan may not be as good as Hillary's but its better then McCain, Obama will get troops home about 80 years sooner then McCain, he will put better judges on the courts, and he will roll bac the bush tax cuts

and if you are old enough you should have known way before now, that this was NOT that negative of a primary compared to ones in the past.

by TruthMatters 2008-05-07 04:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

Love to believe that but haven't seen the leadership of Senator Obama on the issue of leaving Iraq. He had the ability to do so. Especially during the budget talks. He didn't lead. All he's done is tell us what he would do. I was waiting patiently to see his leadership in his actual job  in the US Senate.

Sorry no he won't.

I am seeing what he has done.

No he won't.
I'm well aware this is a Democratic site. I saw Sen. Obama during the 2004 primary. Was very interested in this man. Was also interested in Sen Clinton as well. So I've come to a Democratic site to learn. No troll. But I am not a slave. I do have a brain. And I can't make my own decisions based on what I observe. Just so you know. And before you start calling me a troll or trouble maker. There you go making assumptions about a person whose name you don't know. How about I won't make ASSumptions about you. And you don't make ASSumptions about me.

But being president is more than pretty speeches.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 04:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

um.... did I call you a troll? jeez a bit defensive there maybe?

There you go making assumptions about a person whose name you don't know.

simply pointed out that most people will decide on the issues, and on a democratic site a majority will side with Obama because he is better then McCain.

by TruthMatters 2008-05-07 04:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

To comment on two things Truth Matters.

"well if you really believe McCain is better on the issues, that is your right to believe.

you are on a democratic site, we will all well mostly all disgaree,"

"um.... did I call you a troll? jeez a bit defensive there maybe?

There you go making assumptions about a person whose name you don't know.

simply pointed out that most people will decide on the issues, and on a democratic site a majority will side with Obama because he is better then McCain."

During this primary? Sure I would wonder if disagreement was going to result in being called a troll. Why wouldn't I. Folks have been called trolls simply by stating they would chose Clinton over Obama. Those are BOTH democrats. Good mercy, why shouldn't I be apprehensive about being called a troll for saying I would consider voting for Sen. McCain over Sen. Obama.

I'm not a troll by the way. Not trying to cause trouble. Actually here for debate and to learn. Not easy when most of the postings between the two Democratic front runners supporters on the internet have devolved into pizzing matches and accusations that to disagree was simply to be causing trouble. If you read further you'll find I've aready been accused of subversion for the mere mention that I'd might rather vote for the Republican nominee than Sen. Obama. Yes subversion. For disagreeing. They haven't read my diary entries if they had they'd know just how hard I've tried to be fair to both candidates and really want to hear  the issues NOT the spin.

So far from what I've read. Only one, only one commenter has mentioned a specific bit of legislation that addressed my concern. A real concern since I live in a state with a high military population. By the way I could be in the military and support withdrawal from Iraq. And be concerned over healthcare. And wonder what actual things these Senators have done in the case of Iraq. It is possible that I don't believe that Sen. Obama could bring us out of Iraq no matter waht he says in his statements. Either because he doesn't have the power to do so or the inclination. I could suppor Sen. Clinton over Sen. Obama because I might feel she actually could pull us out of Iraq either due to desire or ability.
Thing is do you know enough about me the voter to know?

The questions asked were abrupt in tone. You weren't finding out about me the voter. I felt as if folks were being combative. Telling me how dare I believe what I believe. Read the post. See how many of the comments are alot defensive towards me.

I dare what I believe because I am a voter and I act in what is my best interest.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 06:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

I CAN make my own decisions. Yes darlin, I CAN!!

And I just don't see the leadership in Senator Obama. Nor to I see him bringing the US out of Iraq.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 04:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

First of all, "darlin" is a misogynistic and secondly, I could personally give fourteen different fucks who you vote for.  Don't forget, Bob Barr is on the ballot, too! Spend that vote wisely.

by Rumproast 2008-05-07 06:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

"First of all, "darlin" is a misogynistic and secondly, I could personally give fourteen different fucks who you vote for"

Lol Rumproast, I'm shaking my head here.

"darlin" is a slam but not a misogynistic one.

It's a southern thing.

Like this

Bless your heart Rumproast I am sorry that you don't care who I vote for and that you will take the time to come into my blog and insult me but not be polite to answer my question.

See.

Buy the way. NOW I have truely sent an insult your way. Please feel free to leave my diary in a huff and truely know that I have just in my own Southern way insulted you.

Now why are you still here. It will just make you angry. Raise your blood pressure and elevate your cortisol. This isn't healthy for you.

You should leave.

I have insulted you. I am fixing to do it AGAIN! Bless your heart rumproast,  inorder for me to be misogynistic I would have to know what gender YOU are. I don't. And inorder to say I was being misogynistic, you would have to know what gender I was. You don't.

Have a nice day.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 07:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

On second thought Rumproast.

Come back in an visit. i am asking folk who responded to come back for future discussion. I have to leave at the moment.

Please come back to visit. Why am I asking you?

Well you see perhaps we have miss understood each other or the meaning of the word. I would hate to lose a political sparing partner over a missunderstanding.

Come back anytime. Just don't be slinging words around like that. People might be insulted.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

As a fellow southerner (and a fourth generation  Democrat descended from an abolitionist Republican politican- yes there were abolitionist polticians in Kentucky in the 1850's- and yes, once upon a time the Republican party was the liberal one- that didn't really change until the 1920's- around the time the descendants of that politician switched parties- voting enthusiastically for Roosevelt and Truman in the 1930's and 40's. My liberal Democratic parents voted happily for Kennedy and Johnson, going  for McCarthy in 1969, McGovern in 72, and happily for Carter in 1976 and 80. I cast my first vote for Mondale in the 1984 GE, I enthusiastically supported and voted for Jesse Jackson Sr. in the 1988 primary and we all voted lukewarmly for Dukasis in the GE, we all voted enthusiastically for Bill Clinton in 1992 and 1996, and Gore in 2000. Kerry we were lukewarm about but we liked Edwards -and Edwards proved the better of the two when he wanted to fight and have the election fraud investigated but Kerry just caved- that lost Kerry any respect he had in south... he'd already disgusted the majority of southern Democrats by his arrogant dismissal of us. Now we see the same pattern from the Obama campaign but toward any white, latino or asian Democrat who makes under 50k a year. Not just in the south but all over. Hillary has and does fight for us, she and Bill came from our classes of people. Obama is from the privileged class and it shows in his contempt. I sure as heck won't vote for Obama, he's arrogant, elitist, and bigoted, plus his voting record shows he's a much weaker Democrat than Hillary.

I won't vote for McCain, but if Hillary doesn't get the nomination I will not vote for Obama. On women's and children's issues he's hardly any different than Bush. I'm writing in Hillary.

by K1966 2008-05-07 07:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

"I'm writing in Hillary."

I'd like to talk to you.

I'll tell you my experience when I tried to write in a candidate.

I'm not discouraging you. I am telling you to ask ahead what the proceedure was.

In may case the machine when nuts.

I am interested in follow up to see if you were successful

Seriously no joke

Right now there is only one of me and lots of commenters.

so I'm going to flag the folks that I would like to talk to in future.

Thanks you are not being ignored. I haven't been able to read you post to give it consideration so I don't know if we agree yet.

but the write in part caught my eye and I didn't know if you were serious or not.

It is an option. Kind of difficult.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 07:45AM | 0 recs
I AM a Democrat and I will NEVER vote

for Obama because he was willing to use racism to gain black votes.  He is too dangerous to be President of anything.  I will vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee.

I will vote for Hillary if she is not the nominee and if she will consent to start a third party.  

Obama does not have any desire to unify this country much less this party.  He has shown what he is and what he can do by his years in Chicago politics and by this campaign.  He is dangerous not just to our party he is dangerous to our country.

by macmcd 2008-05-07 07:35AM | 0 recs
We won't. But we won't vote for Obama, either.

by CoyoteCreek 2008-05-07 04:28AM | 0 recs
Re: You may not but I just might.

There is always a choice. Sorry but staying home won't do a durn thing but waste your vote. I'm a long time voter in all kinds of elections. There have been times when neither candidate was my choice. But I did vote. There was alway something the turned my vote.

In this case, one reason is the large population of military vets that are going to impact our state in the area of health care. I'm 99% sure that neither Senators Obama or McCain is going to bring folks home from Iraq. One, Sen. McCain, will at least say this outright and then provide social services for them on a national level. The other, Sen. Obama, will give lip service to bringing folks home but in reality won't do poop. If I'm wrong say so. As I've said from the beginning I'm here to learn.

But if you think I'm just going to just sit here and vote your way just cause you said so. Without debate? You'd be wrong.

Teach don't preach. I'll just vote Republican other wise. Easier in my state since I've been told that as far as Sen. Obama's statergy is concerned? I don't count.  Why would I want to vote for folks that say I don't count. To me THAT IS wasting a vote!

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 04:46AM | 0 recs
Re: You may not but I just might.

One, Sen. McCain, will at least say this outright and then provide social services for them on a national level.

You're kidding, right? I suggest you study your "preferred" candidate's positions before making such a statement, because McCain does not support any kind of veteran's funding, and has never supported additional funding to care for our Iraq and Afghanistan vets.
DAV gave him a 0% score on voting on veteran's issues in 2006.

by skohayes 2008-05-07 04:59AM | 0 recs
Re: You may not but I just might.

Well howdy,

Am I kidding. Well that's a fine way to treat a voter.

Now I am looking for answers. Specific legislation. Not this generalized food fight that has been passing as debate.

Now them. I am an old dawg but I certainly can learn new things.

Let's get past the talking points and let's examine the issues. One by one.

Might be refresning.

You might get a vote or two. Not because of regurgitating talking points. But because of real discussion.

I am a voter. I vote in my best interest.If you come telling me I'm an idiot for voting for what I believe, mistaken or not, is in my best interest this old dawg will turn off her political hearing aid and vote Republican.

Got it.

Good.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 06:19AM | 0 recs
Re: You may not but I just might.

nrafter530,

Right now there is only one of me and lots of commenters.

I am busier than a cat in a room full of rocking chairs OR lawyers in Dick Chaney's dove field.

Not sure which just yet.

However-

I'm going to flag the folks that I would like to talk to in future or the parts of this comment thread that I would like to continue further.

Thanks. You are not being ignored.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 07:50AM | 0 recs
Re: You may not but I just might.

In other words, can you come back in later and continue this discussion.

I would love to continue it.

I have to leave though.

Not ignoring, avoiding or trying to insult.

Just have to leave for bit.

Come back.

Post time here if there is a specific time you can come back.

Thank you. Thank you for responding to my post and asking the question.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:54AM | 0 recs
Youre misinformed

You state:

I'm 99% sure that neither Senators Obama or McCain is going to bring folks home from Iraq. One, Sen. McCain, will at least say this outright and then provide social services for them on a national level.

You prove your ignorance of Sen. McCain and Sen. Obama and their respective records on Veterans affairs.

One supports the Webb GI Bill, the other doesn't.  One votes for phased redeployment and an exit strategy, the other continually votes against our troops and a clear mission.  One opposes actions towards Iran, the other saber-rattles constantly (Kyl-Leiberman).

Youre entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.

And youre sure as hell not entitled to any sympathy on a Democratic site for open subversion to this party, its presumptive nominee, and its principles.

by BWasikIUgrad 2008-05-07 05:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

Well you see. To peacefully disagree AND to come to learn has never been open subversion. An interesting thing too, since I remember being told that to peacefully disagree about the war in Iraq before it happened was also subversion.

I like debate. If I'm wrong call me out. But to say that disagreeing with you anywhere is subversion. Wow. Better wrong than still free speech. Otherwise how will we know we are wrong.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 05:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

Funny the folks who have been saying,"Don't disagree with me just do as I say?" Have been coming from Senator Obama supporters.

Sorry that just makes hims look like the Democratic version of George Bush.
That doesn't make me anti Democrat or Anti Obama.
Just makes me wonder what his supporters are thinking.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 05:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

OK, then let me simply say that you are categorically wrong on the issues.  McCain does not support expanding veterans benefits because...wait for it...he thinks giving such benefits will hurt rectruing, and therefore preclude him from continuing the war in Iraq for "100 years."  Obama supports expanding veterans benefits, and will get us out of Iraq a hell of a lot quicker than McCain, even if not quick enough for my tastess.  

Those are facts my friend.  If you're going to support McCain, then at least provide some empirical evidence as to why.  If you're actually against the war and support expanding veterans benefits, there's a clear choice.  And it's not the guy running for GWB's third term.  

by HSTruman 2008-05-07 06:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

"OK, then let me simply say that you are categorically wrong on the issues."

by HS Truman

You know HSTruman. I was talking to sko hayes and BWASIKIUgrad here.  

I'm glad that you are entering the discussion. But let's not answer as if we are  skohayes or bwasikiugrad.

Okay.

And if we can keep the astonishment to below a deafing roar that would be good too. I realize this in an emotional issue for some. But guess what, this is entering general election territory. People are going to be your friend. They are going to vote on the issues that affect them. And just so you know. They aren't going to like being told what to do. I'm not on your diary your are in mine. This is my diary home. Keep the calling of complete stranger somewhere else. Find out who I am before you start calling me an idiot.

Thanks

Now about the FACTS of this part of the discussion. Yes I am very interested in what the candidates have to say on this. You have my attention. What specifics do you have? To many talking points. What's yer actual understanding of the issue. Otherwise I might think you nothing more than a political parrot.

Got my attention. Give me something informative to read. Then follow up with an offer to help should I have questions. okay?

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 06:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

First, I didn't insult you or pretend to be someone else.  I responded to one of your posts that I believe is factually incorrect.  That's not an insult, so settle down.  It's a conversation.

As far as facts go, here's an article from the Hill that notes McCain's opposition to Jim Webb's GI Bill.  Both Obama and Clinton support the bill, as do raging "liberals" like John Warner and James Inhofe.  The bill recently got 56 votes in the Senate, so it ought not to be controversial.  Except that McCain thinks it will prevent him from having enough recruits to fight an endless war in Iraq.  Here's the link:

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/webb -urges-mccain-to-sign-onto-gi-bill-2008- 03-19.html

by HSTruman 2008-05-07 06:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

Hs Truman. Settle down there's more folks in here asking me questions than when I go home for holidays. :D

First, I could just, with your permision, hug your neck for providing for me something to read.

You are going to follow up?

I hope so.

Give me until the weekend to discuss.
If you would post best times here incase we miss each other. Thanks.

Would you check in here before incase I can't find it or I need to ask a question.

Thank you.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 07:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

And if we can keep the astonishment to below a deafing roar that would be good too. I realize this in an emotional issue for some. But guess what, this is entering general election territory. People are going to be your friend. They are going to vote on the issues that affect them. And just so you know. They aren't going to like being told what to do. I'm not on your diary your are in mine. This is my diary home. Keep the calling of complete stranger somewhere else. Find out who I am before you start calling me an idiot.

I left a very important world out of the above sentence. Sorry.

The word is NOT.

As in "...this is entering general election territory. People are NOT going to be your friend. They are going to vote on the issues that affect them..."

And may I add, affect them personally. Voting local.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 06:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

You did indeed keep the astonishment below deafing roar. Make all the difference. I can now "hear" what you are saying.

Not insulted. Happily awaiting chance to discuss.

Very happy indeed.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 07:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

"Obama supports expanding veterans benefits, and will get us out of Iraq a hell of a lot quicker than McCain, even if not quick enough for my tastess"

This is a bone of contention with me. Senator Obama has been portrayed as the man who will get us out of Iraq. If he won the election in 2008, he only has 4 years guarenteed to do this. Truthfull from my knowledge he only really has two years. The first year is a get yer administration set up. The fourth year is running for reelection.

Only two years tops.

Since he's spending his first time as Senator telling us what he's going to do as president, when he could have shown us what he would do by leading in the Senate. I'm not sure how he's gonna bring us out of Iraq at all.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 06:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

You don't need 60 votes in the Senate to start reducing troop levels if you're president of the united states.  He won't get everyone out immediately, as some of us would like, but every indication is that he will start a draw down within the first six months he's in office.  I can't prove that's the case, since it's a future event, but there's no evidence to the contrary.  The question, really, is simply how many can come home and how soon.  Not whether that will happen.  

by HSTruman 2008-05-07 06:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

"You don't need 60 votes in the Senate to start reducing troop levels if you're president of the united states.  He won't get everyone out immediately, as some of us would like, but every indication is that he will start a draw down within the first six months he's in office.  I can't prove that's the case, since it's a future event, but there's no evidence to the contrary.  The question, really, is simply how many can come home and how soon.  Not whether that will happen."

President Bush has "brought home troops" too. We are still in Iraq.

"The question, really, is simply how many can come home and how soon.  Not whether that will happen."

Yep and I don't know that Sen. Obama won't get into office and say sorry I just didn't really appreciate the magnitude of the problem. I can't bring home the troops like I thought.

I heard a Representitive say that to his constituents. After he got into office by promising to stop the war in Iraq. Now with a Representative you can vote him or her out of office in 2 years. Interesting to see if that Representative survives. Anyway. Representative can be out of office pretty quick if you have buyers remorse. Plus they are only one of many. A president is one of one. There are checks and balances to be sure. But not like Representative.  The statement, the question,

"...The question, really, is simply how many can come home and how soon.  Not whether that will happen...."

is a true one but one that can be deceptive. I want more guarantees. He is in a position to be questioned on this and give guareentes. Both he and Sen.McCain could easily do so. A realistic answer though is what I'm looking for.

Oh yeah.
You do have to fund this war in the mean time. Very expensive this war is. Really. Then there are the accusations of graft and corruption in this war. What has Senator Obama done about this. In this particular time where money is tight in the nations house. I would think this would take up much of his time. Specifically.

What has Senator Obama been doing to position himself to withdraw troops by drawing allies in the Senate who will help him move legislation throught to completion?  Has he learned about the passages of bills so that he can effect change. Just cause he says so don't make it so does it? Or does it?

As I mentioned most of the first year is setting up your administration. Someone was telling me this weekend just how many  positions that is. It's not just the basic cabinet. Plus there is the veting processes. Just what has Senator Obama been doing now to make that an easy task?

On a constitutional note.
Folks got hot an bothered when President Bush said he had the authority to unilaterally wage war when ever he wanted to.

According to President Bush, it was in the constitution.

Alot of anti war folks or folks who didn't think that to invade Iraq thought he was wrong.

Where in the constitution does it say that the President had the power to start and stop wars.

I'm asking to see if you're fixin to tell me that the president has the ability to use what was called "the doctrine of premptive strike"?

Lots of questions I have. That is why I am here to learn, to learn. I hope you will be as determined to educate me as you were to call me an idiot.

Thank you.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 07:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

I have no idea why you think I called you an idot.  I disagreed with you.  That's different.

As far as Iraq goes, the central pillar of Obama's candidacy has been that he showed the proper judgment leading up to Iraq and that he will ease us out of the war when elected.  Again, I can't prove to you that he'll do what he says, because that's impossible.  If you perceive that as a reason to vote for the guy running on a platform of keeping us in Iraq indefinitely, so be it.  

Similarly, I don't understand your preemptive strike question.  By all accounts, Obama -- as a former law professor -- actually thinks that separation of powers exist.  He's not a unitary executive proponent, and was highly critical of Bush's use of force in Iraq.  So I don't see any indication that he subscribes to the Bush doctrine.  He's the only candidate who opposed the war from the start.  

by HSTruman 2008-05-07 07:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

HS Truman,

hello again.

there are alot of posters here commenting at one time.

I state this on the thread with the recommended reading. I believe that is you.

Would you arrange to talk with me about theses issues this weekend.

I would like to have a serious conversation with you then. I can't at the moment. And I don't for the life of me wish in anyway to offend someone who has gone to the trouble to talk to me.

Thank you.

If there is a time in future and you don't mind. Let me know here.

This isn't very politically correct. But I try to be myself annd since,I have already been accused of being mysogynistic for saying darlin which where I'm from isn't gender related at all, please don't be insulted but this.

But hugs to you. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me.

I am grateful.\

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

I'll check back over the weekend.  I'm always happy to discuss issues.  Seriously.

Cheers

by HSTruman 2008-05-07 08:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Thanks.

Thank you.

I circled back in to make a quick comment and saw this response.

Two things I know.

Reasonable people can and do disagree all of the time.

It is at it's best what America is all about. I love being American. I am proud of the privedge and glad I was born one. Dunno if I could have survived to process to become one. Don't know that I would be smart enough.

Two
We'll probably be disagreeing on somethings so I don't want you to feel snake bite when it happens. It will.
This isn't some trap. This what I love. If you will accept this. And not try to make me believe something just because you do, I will do same.

And I might not get things on the first go. Like I said not always the smartest kid in the room. But I will do my best.

 I certainly will be delighted for the discussion regardless of the outcome.

Thank you again.

12 dogs.

Now I have to go or I'll want to stay the entire afternoon which I can not.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 10:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

Checked back but this was a really difficult weekend. Mother's Day and Birthday.

Will try posting on your blog in the coming week.

Regards

12 dogs

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-11 10:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Youre misinformed

For got to add I wasn't asking for your sympathy I was asking for your opinion.

Different.

Second I am asking folks to please come back to continue this conversation. I have to leave and hope to be back in to night or sometime this weekend.

Can you continue?

If you have a particular time preference would you post it here.

I am grateful that you took the time to respond to my diary. Thanks hope you will come back.\

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:57AM | 0 recs
Re: We won't.

Coyote Creek

I have reconsidered my response.

Normally this is how I view the process. But this is an exception.

Here's why. (I posted this to another person who also said they would sit out the election. It's the same answer to the same question)

"You know I came back on purpose to check to things. I'm not here to chat or to lurk I really do have to leave.

But seriously, I have said that there is always a choice even between two I didn't care for. Compromise. But in this case it might be the best thing that the Clinton supporters ever did if they said, "Hey we'll just sit this one out."

There has been much to much a clear divide between Senator Obama's supporters and Senator Clinton's supporters.

I have read on myDD about the exodus of Senator Clinton's supporters from Dkos and have heard Sen. Obama supporters say in no uncertain terms that they want nothing to do with Sen.Clinton on the ticket. This was not an offer of a  safe harbor to Sen. Clinton's supporters if Sen. Obama were to get the nomination. Call it the "step kid syndrome" in politics. You can give us your vote but we don't have to give you a place in our party. At least not the first choice or the second or the.... You get the idea.

Maybe the threat not to vote at all is a wise choice. So that the Clinon supporters would feel valued.

Maybe a good way to get folks attention.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Independants.
Cross your arms and learn to say no. Tis the only way to get a politician's attention.

Gave me something to ponder. Thank you.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 10:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?
I'm afraid that you haven't explained why you're voting for McSame.
You say you're concerned about Iraq, but John McCain has no intention of leaving Iraq until we win, "whatever it takes" is exactly how he put it in one speech.
You say that Democrats haven't given southern Dems a "safe harbor", I'm not even sure what that means.
I'm a Hillary supporter, but I'm a Democrat first, I would crawl over broken glass to get Obama in the WH, if he wins the nomination.
It's not about me, or you, or any of us as individuals, it's about starting this country back on the right path.
Voting for John McCain, as a Democrat, is simply voting against your own interests, in the guise of getting some sort of revenge against Obama supporters. It will hurt a lot more people that just Democrats, if we have four more years of Republican rule ("bomb bomb bomb Iran").
by skohayes 2008-05-07 04:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

Oh horse hocky.

I sure did say why. Go back and read and then I'll be more than happy to discuss.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 05:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?
I read the diary the first time, I have no problems with reading comprehension.
You said that McCain would offer safe haven for southern Democrats, I asked what that meant. You think McCain would end the Iraq war, when anyone who's been paying attention knows that's wrong.
You can debate this rationally or not, but don't insult me.
by skohayes 2008-05-07 05:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

sko hayes,

Have I insulted you? Really?

I'm sorry.

I felt insulted first. I said why. But if you would like for me to expand on my comment or my diary that makes sense.

Since we both have started this section of the thread feeling abit insulted. Perhaps we should take a moment and both appologize.

That way we can continue this discussion without the burden of feeling insulted. It will make this discussion easier. Don't you agree.

I will continue this part of the conversation after we have --rationally -- dealt with the obvious emotional distress.

Although I must say, my response--

"Oh horse hocky.

I sure did say why. Go back and read and then I'll be more than happy to discuss."

Did you actually find that offensive?

I'm sorry. Had no idea.

Interesting though.

Using what we call the "N" word isn't offensive.

But using the word "horse hocky" and I might add using the term "darlin'" in another post is offensive.

Interesting.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 07:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

Great Wealth? Stupidity? Bitterness?

by Lefty Coaster 2008-05-07 04:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

"The vitriol and hatemongering toward Hillary from Obama and his camp has divided the Dem Party. And after Donna Brazile notified the public last night on national TV that the Dem Party hates white people, there will be more division."

The vitriol  has been be aweful all over the place. I have been trying not to be apart of it. To be fair. I want to say first,

I am not here to bash Ms Brazile, not in the least. She has worked very hard in the Democratic Party and has been involved in the national politics for a while. I'm surprised that she would say that the Democratic Party hates white people. I would like to see what she said for myself. I did not hear her speak last night. I'm going to look for her quote. In the mean time if you can point me in the direction of her quote I would be grateful.

So that I could see for myself.

Thank you.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 04:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

Does anyone have the quote from last night. The one that Ms Brazile is supposed to have said.

I didn't hear her speak last night

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

I have to leave now. I am asking folks to please come back and continue this discussion at at future time.

I hope that you will.

Thank you for responding to this diary entry.

I am interested in discussing this topic further.

If you have a particular time you can chat post it here.
Thanks.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 09:00AM | 0 recs
plenty of reasons

- they LOVE the Iraq War and want to wage it forever

- they hate the concept of universal healthcare

- they embrace the idea of continued GOP politicization of the DOJ, the State Department, etc.

- they can't get enough of McCain's fake straight talk

- they want Roe v. Wade overturned

- they are Republicans

Dumber than all those reasons: they hold a grudge against a fellow Democrat.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-07 04:59AM | 0 recs
Re: plenty of reasons

Look if you would like to provoke tis your choice. Just as it is mine to not take the bait.

Folks stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I actually gave the reason why.

As for loving the war. Nope.

I just don't see Sen. Obama bring us out either. He had alot more leadership opportunites in his day job as Senator. He didn't.

Show me where I'm wrong.

Oh and leave Sen. Clinton out of it.

You guys have been making mighty big ASSumptions about a person whose name you don't know.

Oh and Roe v Wade. Am I a woman or a man.

The BS that's been spun out in other blogs won't hold water here. I'm a grown up that has actually had to deal not pontificate. So grow up or go somewhere else. You'll only get pissed off her and that's not good for your heath.

Otherwise tone down the retoric and we'll discuss.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 05:04AM | 0 recs
Re: plenty of reasons

heh, your response was fairly incoherent.  For example, what do you mean by "Oh and Roe v Wade. Am I a woman or a man."?  That makes no sense.

I answered your question and listed reasons someone would vote for John McCain.  When it comes to POLICY, Obama is a thousand times closer to Clinton than McCain.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-07 05:07AM | 0 recs
Re: plenty of reasons

"You guys have been making mighty big ASSumptions about a person whose name you don't know.

Oh and Roe v Wade. Am I a woman or a man."
 they LOVE the Iraq War and want to wage it forever

- they hate the concept of universal healthcare

- they embrace the idea of continued GOP politicization of the DOJ, the State Department, etc.

- they can't get enough of McCain's fake straight talk

- they want Roe v. Wade overturned<<<<your comment</p>

- they are Republicans

Dumber than all those reasons: they hold a grudge against a fellow Democrat.

Why did I make the Roe v Wade comment? Because you did. In the comment above.

I state that I feel that you've made assumptions about what I think or don't think. If in haste I have unfairly judged I am sorry.

I have seen folks jumped on for mentioning they would vote for either democratic candidate not because of a discussion of the issues, but for breathing they would choose one candidate over the other. They didn't even get a chance to get to the nuts and bolts of the issues. Not even a chance. Alot of assumptions made of these folks.

My comment was to prevent that from happening here in this diary discussion.

I wanted you to think. There is a person here on the other side of my computer screen. Who is that person. What are their experience that would cause he or she to vote for a candidate of a completely different party?  I did give a big reason. And to my knowledge only one person so far had commented on it. I am going to happily talk to that person about the issue. Because the reason given was a concern.

Oh and I also mentioned Roe v Wade for a very good personal reason. I do have an opinion on that issue. You brought it up. Do you want to talk about this issue. Be glad too. But you might want to ask a few more questions before you start with the "on target message" spin stuff. Stop and find out who you're talking to first. What they think. Especially since you will be courting Independents in the General Election.

Just a thought. Lol Nope. It's MORE than just a thought. I'd like your opinion please. Thank you.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 05:50AM | 0 recs
Re: plenty of reasons

The "Am I a woman or a man" comment is what made no sense.  What does that have to do with anything?

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-07 06:55AM | 0 recs
Re: plenty of reasons

Alot has been made in this primary about relating issues to gender.

Especially on the issue on abortion. (Roe v Wade)

I think that it is a people issue. But there is the  fact that it is the woman that physically gets pregnant and physically has an abortion.

It is thought of as a woman's issue within the Democratic party.

We could talk about this later if you like.

Right now there is only one of me.

Many good conversations at one time and I must leave in short order.

I am inviting folks to come back at a later time so that we could talk on the issues at hand.

There is only one author of this diary. Me.

And alot of ya'll.

Please come back this week end when we can converse.

Let me know if you can.

You are not being ignored.

Thank you.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:10AM | 0 recs
Re: my answer

I won't vote for McCain but I also won't vote for Obama. I will vote in all my state and local elections but leave the top slot blank.

by ricardo4 2008-05-07 05:03AM | 0 recs
Re: my answer

Then you will have wasted your vote.

There is aways a choice other than none of the above.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 05:06AM | 0 recs
Re: my answer

You know I came back on purpose to check to things. I'm not here to chat or to lurk I really do have to leave.

But seriously, I have said that there is always a choice even between to I didn't care for. But in this case it might be the best thing that the Clinton supporters ever did if they said, "Hey we'll just sit this one out."

There has been much to much a clear divide between Senator Obama's supporters and Senator Clinton's supporters.

I have read on myDD about the exodus of Senator Clinton's supporters from Dkos and have heard Sen. Obama supporters say in no uncertain terms that they want nothing to do with Sen.Clinton on the ticket. This is not was to offer again a safe harbor to Sen. Clinton's supporters if Sen. Obama were to get the nomination. Call it the "step kid syndrome" in politics. You can give us your vote but we don't have to give you a place in our party.

Maybe the threat not to vote at all is a wise choice. So that the Clinon supporters would feel valued.

Maybe a good way to get folks attention.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Independants.
Cross your arms and learn to say no. Tis the only way to get a politician's attention.

Gave me something to ponder. Thank you.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 10:20AM | 0 recs
Re: my answer

If you agreed with Clinton's policy positions, it's clear that you should vote for Obama.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-07 05:08AM | 0 recs
Re: my answer

Ah well now here is the difference. I might actually believe that Clinton would act on her beliefs. Not sure Obama would. So they are not even.

Does that make more sense to you?

Even if they said the same thing. I have doubts that Sen. Obama will actually act on them.

Your response?

I'm going back to read the original exchange between us. To be fair. BRB

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 05:22AM | 0 recs
Re: my answer

Well, you might not "be sure" that Obama will act on health care and other issues like the Iraq war, but you can bank on the fact that John McCain will NOT be acting on universal health care, he will not be bringing the troops home from Iraq, he will not be fixing the mess in the DoJ or the EPA or the FEC or any other government entities Bush has screwed up over the last 8 years.

by skohayes 2008-05-07 06:04AM | 0 recs
Re: my answer

sko

I have mentioned this up thread.

I have to leave for a bit.

Would love to chat with you further. So if you could come back I would be delighted to chat further. Many good discussions.

If you have a particular time to chat post it in comments.

Otherwish I look forward to chatting with you.

I especially didn't want you to think I was ignoring or avoiding or being rude.

Please come back. Perhaps you will be able to teach this old dawg a new thing of too.

Thanks 12 dogs

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 09:06AM | 0 recs
Re: my answer

Nafter,

I would like to continue our conversation but I will have to leave here soon.

So I am asking folks if they would come back at a future time.

There are good conversations here and only one me.

If there is a good time to come back could you list it here.

I don't want to be rude and you are not being ignored.

Please come back.

Thanks,

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone

a lot of "centrist" voters liked McCain in 2000.  Had the Repugs picked McCain in 2000, we could have avoided President Knucklehead altogether.

I am a centrist Democrat.  I am now undecided who I will support in November.  Maybe McCain's day is past.  maybe 2000 was his big chance.  OTOH,  Obama is too much of an unknown to most Americans.

maybe experience DOES matter.  

by WolfmanJack 2008-05-07 05:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone

McCain is not a centrist.

If you liked Clinton's policy positions, Obama is the clear choice.

by Slim Tyranny 2008-05-07 05:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone

LOL Since you were happy to ask my reasons for the mention that I would support Senator MCCain in the general election.

Perhaps you could list your reason for voting for Senator Obama.

Thing is I have questions about wheither Senator Obama will actutally follow throw on his campaign promises.

I really do. And I'm not the only one.

By the way, I will reply to our original "conversation" in this diary entry. You asked and I will reply.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 05:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone

Here our some of my reasons for voting for ANY Democrat over John McCain:

* Iraq

  • Iran (mark my words, Mccain will start a new war there too)
  • Health Care
  • Social Security (which McCain wants to privatize)
  • Fiscal Responsibility (McCain has proposed even more sweeping tax cuts for the wealthy)
  • The Supreme Court (and for reasons other than abortion rights too.  I actually give a shit about all civil liberties)

Those are some pretty powerful reasons to vote against McCain my friend.  Other than "Obama is lying and won't really do what he says," I have yet to hear you explain how a rational left-leaning voter could nonetheless prefer him to Obama.

by HSTruman 2008-05-07 06:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone

HS Truman

read up stream

Want to continue excellent convo but must leave.

Please read previous have asked if you'll come back. Thanks 12 dogs

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone

Voting for President is complex.  It isn't just based on policy positions.  There is the likability factor (which doomed Kerry).  There is the "who is more genuine" factor.  There is "identity" politics, not just for blacks and women, but for all/most of us.  Veterans might prefer McCain.  White blue-collar males might prefer McCain.

If policy positions were the determinant, Gore and Kerry would have  won.  Bush looked like an idiot in the debates, and yet he still won. Democrats assume that all voters are rational.  But in fact the choice (for many Americans) is not entirely rational, but rather more based on "gut feeling".

by WolfmanJack 2008-05-07 05:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone

Slim Tyranny

I have to leave soon

So I'm asking folks if they will come back maybe this weekend or future date to continue conversation.
Many wonderful conversations. I am thrilled.

You aren't being singled out or ignored.

Many people asking questions only one diary author.

Please come back and thank you for engaging in debate.

Thanks.

Post time here so I will see it when I come back.

Thanks.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone

Wolfman Jack, would you come back and discuss this at future time.

I have to leave in a bit.

These are wonderful conversations and I am happy to engage them all

Only one diarist here and lots of ya'll at one time.

I have already extend this invitation to HS truman and sko hayes in previous parts of the comments.

I hope that you will please come back. Lots to think about.

Post time here so I will know and won't miss you.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:17AM | 0 recs
I'll Be Voting ...

... for the candidate who isn't itching to add Iran to the list of countries with whom we're at war, who won't be nominating Scalia-clones to replace Justices Stevens and Ginsburg, and who doesn't support the continued massive erosion of various Fourth Amendment rights that have taken place over the last seven years.

Of course, your priorities may differ.

by Collideascope 2008-05-07 06:11AM | 0 recs
Re: I'll Be Voting ...

Right now there is only one of me and lots of commenters.

I am busier than a cat in a room full of rocking chairs OR lawyers in Dick Chaney's dove field.

Not sure which just yet.

However-

I have to leave for a bit. I was wondering if you could come back at future date and continue this thought. I hope so.

Thanks. 12 dogs

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

I'll not vote for a cheater.  The mayor of Gary County helped me made my decision.

For me there will be 2 options. It's either President Clinton or President McCain.

by JoeySky18 2008-05-07 06:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

Joey I have to leave right now.

Will you come back at future time and discuss.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my blog.

12 dogs.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:24AM | 0 recs
If only someone else...
In my heart I realize that Obama may prevail (I really never thought so before--I thought Rezko, Ayers, Wright, his razor-thin expereince, that his hope and change comes from Axelrod's playbook and not his own fast rise from playing with the slime in Chicago would finally catch up with him).
Lots of feelings here now, but it comes down to this:  So do I vote for McCain (whose service I admire)and his awful policies or a modern-day Elmer Gantry?  Not an easy choice.  If it were Biden or Edwards left standing, I would not be in this dilemmma--just sad that my gal may not make it.  But these two--in troubled times?  It's scary.  Very scary.  I am older, but I look at my little grandbabies and it's hard not to cry.  What will their world be like?
by The Smoldering Crone 2008-05-07 07:46AM | 0 recs
Re: If only someone else...

I hope you aren't offended, lol someone called my misogynistic because I used the southern word darlin, but hugs to your comment.

I have to leave for a bit but I will be back.

Would you come back at future time to discuss. I hope so.

Again hugs to you. This can be a scarey world we live in. That's why this election is important.

come back and post anytime. I would just love to have a chance to chat more real time than on delayed response.

Thankyou for you post. Read and apreciated.

12 dogs.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-07 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Why would anyone vote for Senator John McCain?

You ask why would anyone vote for McCain. The answer is: when his opponent has no real governmental experience except for dealings with crooks.

by LA 2008-05-07 11:53AM | 0 recs

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