• on a comment on Dishonoring Hillary [UPDATED] over 6 years ago

    "But Hillary is bigger than they are, and she cares about the well being of this country as much as anyone I have ever seen on the public stage. Hillary inspires me now, no less than she did throughout the entie campaign, because  unlike so many of her so-called supporters, she will do the right thing."  - Linfar

    There are very different roles that politicians and their supporters play, and each is essential, and complementary, not contradictory.

    According to the latest ABC News/WAPO poll, a total of 37% of Clinton supporters will not vote for Obama, and we have a perfect right to our positions, which vary in their basis.

    What Hillary decides is "right" for her to do is not "right" for anyone but her, and everyone has both the right and obligation to examine what is right for them. Hillary is a public servant who has both obligations to her constituents to preserve the political power they need her to maintain in order to serve them best, and her own personal vision and dreams to fulfill. She has her understanding of where her obligations and responsibility lies. Her supporters also have our rights and responsibilities to stand up for our beliefs, truths, special personal mission in life, and responsibilities to voice those views.

    Hillary could not have gained the opportunity to run for the presidential nomination without being a "team player", and that is one of her gifts. It has severe limitations, which need to be complemented by the dissent of everyone who is not restricted by responsibilities and constraints on their ability to speak truth to power.

    Society needs both team players and dissenters to function, and both positions deserve dignity and respect, along with vigorous debate.

    Trashing either Hillary, or any of the tremendous number of her supporters who disagree with supporting Obama and refuse to do so, avoids dealing with the issues at hand and offers only a segue into meaningless vitriol. No point to it whatsoever, except to derail an otherwise important discussion.

    People have a variety of reasons we will never support Obama, and they will not be changed at all by trashing us, which only alienates us further.

  • No way will I ever support Obama.

  • "Thought the whole health care debate during the primaries (here talking about the marginal debate between the candidates, not their general focus on the issue) was kind of stupid, actually, because it didn't concentrate on what the Dems would need to get any plan passed."

    Only people who don't understand the first thing about health care reform think the debate on this issue is stupid. What is the point of getting something passed that will fail horribly in practice?

    The problem with health care is skyrocketing costs, and the only way to control costs is by getting everyone into the system (mandates), invested in making it work and be affordable, and then getting the regulations passed on industry that will insure that patients and the public good are served, as it have been done in Europe.

    Without the first step of mandates, all else will not occur. As long as people can opt out of the system, there will never be the political will to accomplish the needed reforms. Only mandates will lower costs for everyone, and even then we will need many futher measures to make health care affordable again.

    The question of political viability is another issue. if you say mandates are not politically viable then you are saying we cannot reform health care and we will do nothing to lower costs or create universal coverage, because only mandates can create those great goods.

  • "the end of her campaign signals the end of proposals to mandate the purchase of products from for-profit insurance corporations."

    Clinton's proposal never mandated the purchase of products from for profit health insurance. That idea is still alive, in the bipartisan "Healthy Americans" Act, poised to pass the Senate and really mandate the purchase of insurance from private industry.without the option Clinton included of a Medicare for All program.

    So much more  died with the destruction of Clinton's candidacy, it was really the end of the hope for single payer.

  • "Isn't single payer also "mandated"??"

    Yes, single payer is mandated, and all taxpayers would have to  have to pay for it as part of their tax burden. All the same arguments apply as to the mandate in question.

    Of course, if we had a national single payer system in place, and no more employer based health insurance as it takes it's place, then as soon as the political pendulum swings and  tax cutting Republicans take over again, they immediately start playing "starve the beast" as with all entitlements, they will cut the coverage down to the bare bones and then some, and the only alternative will be ghastly expensive private health insurance for people to try to buy on their own, or go without health care. People see the wide swings in government services, and do not trust the same people who brought us Katrina bringing us our open heart surgery.

    At least with the Massachusetts mandate they do exempt people who cannot afford to buy insurance plans.  When was the last time you tried to tell your employer or the IRS that you "couldn't afford" to pay your taxes?

    Of course, Nurse Schrum, you are brutally misrepresenting the Clinton health care mandates, which would cap costs at 6-10% of family income, and subsidize the rest, so people would not be "forced to buy plans they could not afford".  And you misrepresent the Clinton plan also by saying that people would be forced to buy private insurance - Clinton strategically included a public program modeled on Medicare that people could buy into as an alternative to private or employer based insurance. That program was the seed of a single payer national health insurance program, but had you the eyes to see it.

    Hillary was the last candidate standing  who cared enough about giving single payer a chance to offer that option, even though it opened her to new political attack on the "no new bureaucracies" front. She also vowed to fight the insurance and drug companies to regulate them on their high priced snake oil and usurious rates, and swiss cheese coverage, so we could have mandates that made sure everyone was in the system and covered, with the health insurance industry heavily regulated much like it is in Europe, where the insurance and "sickness funds" are technically private entities, but function essentially as public services. Little functional difference between that and true single payer, as they are "private" insurance in name only.

    Did progressives and single payer advocates support Clinton for her progressive health care plan? No. You are still stuck in the denial that American voters want a single payer system and it is only the big bad money interests that are preventing it from being passed. Wrong. Far too many Americans have lived under nationalized governments and do not want that here. I somewhat disagree with them, but I assure you it is the VOTERS who do not support single payer that remain the obstacle to it, not industry. Kucinich supported single payer, and got 2% support from voters.

    Hillary Clinton listened to her constituents and devised a plan that they asked her for, not business. She was never "bought out" by the insurance or drug companies, there is no quid pro quo with her, she does what she believes in and honors what her constituents ask for.

    You have to win over the hearts and minds of the American public to win single payer. And Hillary knew the people would need to see PROOF, to see it working well for them, so she included the Medicare for All option in her plan so the American public could see it working with their own eyes, and be convinced it is a good thing. They might have flocked to it in droves, making it the new "Medicare for All" program we have needed for generations already.

    Now Clinton's candidacy is destroyed, and all hope of that is gone. Instead of cynically attacking and destroying your best candidate, you progressives should have been behind her all the way.

    Now how happy will you all be with the "bipartisan" Obama/Biden/Bennett "Healthy Americans" Act? The free market will be unleashed to solve all our health care woes [not]. You have only your blindness to thank.

  • " And if you won't vote Obama, who the hell is left? So people are going for McCain. It is nutz."

    No, it's not at all nuts. We had to sit and watch at the RBC meeting as the corrupt Chicago voter fraud/election fixing machine stole votes from Hillary and gave he nomination to Obama. We watched caucus fraud, and attempted voter fraud in many other states. As someone who believes in both democracy and the Democratic party, I cannot countenance the takeover of my party by it's most corrupt wing. Especially not when both Houses of Congress will be controlled by the Democratic Party. There will be no oversight, no watchdog, no enforcement against our own, and that is the stuff of nightmares for our democracy. They could fix elections for the indefinite future, and then, if you disagree with them, you are silenced and destroyed, the way Hillary was.

    They couldn't control Hillary, so they destroyed her and have anointed someone they can control, who has no experience, hasn't done anything important in his entire political career, has no political capital of his own, and is completely dependent on them.  They will pull his strings and he will do what they say.

    Don't think for a minute that any of us prefer John McCain, that's bullshit. But we cannot allow the destruction of our democracy by our own party's hand, and we will do everything necessary to see that these thugs do not take over our party. If there is no Democratic party we can believe in, then there is no hope left. Our only choice is to fight.

    Drivel about the policy positions of Obama vs. McCain is irrelevant, you are wasting your time discussing it. The Democratic fish is rotten at the head, and the stench permeates all the rest. McCain getting in is the collateral damage we will have to tolerate.

  • "you can't call yourself a Democrat if you refuse to support Democrats and you can't call yourself a progressive if you won't support progressive candidates."

    We sure as hell will call ourselves Democrats and Progressives, because we are. We don't want anti progressive Obama "bipartisan" cave ins to the right wing free market approach, we don't want Chicago style voter fraud, vote theft, and voter intimidation thugs taking over our party. We will fight this anti-democratic coup till you are defeated.

    You don't get it:

    I can live with another 4 years of John McCain in the White House, with what will likely be a veto proof Democratic Senate and majority in the House. I can be patient and wait another 4 years for a more progressive agenda to move forward. I cannot live with the takeover of my party by it's most corrupt, bought out wing. Then I lose all hope, there will be no "good guys" left to believe in. We will never give up.

  • "We know she'll support Obama, we understand, and we're not going along."

    Right on, Ron. We aren't going along, and PUMA is all Hillary supporters. There is an incredible upswelling of Hillary supporters organizing volunteer cadres, fundraising to retire her debt and create new PACs to support primary challengers to the people who betrayed Hillary. We are fighting back against this takeover of our party by the corrupt Chicago voter fraud machine.

    We aren't going along because we don't want corruption dominating our party, and because Barack Obama is not qualified to be president or commander in chief at a time of war. He is a danger to our country, and we are fighting to save it. He is not the legitimate nominee of the Democratic Party, if you count all the votes Hillary won on both delegates and the popular vote. He was selected, not elected. We will never support Barack Obama.

  • You people really DON'T get it , do you? We told you all along we wouldn't go along with Obama, or the DNC, after the horrific and disgusting way Senator Clinton was treated, and now you act surprised? And you continue to hurl demeaning insults? Forget it, you are digging yourselves in even further, if that were possible. We haven't heard one apology to Senator Clinton from Obama and his cohorts, and Clinton supporters are still threatened and abused. You even had the nerve to crash our concession day gathering with your creepy "Yes we can" crap that completely creeped us out. Stay away from our meetings, you aren't wanted there. We have one answer for you - Party Unity My Ass. You will be hearing a lot more about PUMA in the days to come, we are organizing. You wanted to play hardball, well, you've got the game you wanted.

  • on a comment on It's Been One Week over 6 years ago

    That's disgusting, cowardly crap that Obama supporters are going to continue to whine and blame Hillary Clinton for the fact that their candidate is unelectable. You managed to steal the nomination with Chicago voter fraud, vote theft, and voter intimidation at caucuses, then in cahoots with the DNC Rules and Bylaws committee disenfranchise the voters of Michigan and Florida and even steal 4 delegates from Clinton, and you want to whine even in November that you are her victim? What kind of childish crap is that?

    Plenty of us are not supporting Obama. You will see. That's what you get for stabbing friends in the back.

  • comment on a post The Details On Michelle Obama's Alleged Whitey Rant over 6 years ago

    " Real dems don't let Republicans attack our folks. Period."

    How hypocritical. After the Obama folks have been sliming Hillary Clinton with the right wing smear campaign for so long. You must be joking now?

    By your definition, there are almost no Obama supporters who are "real dems".

  • "My guess is that a challenge to the fraudulent caucuses and the June 1 voter-stripping decision is in the works."

    Yes, I hope she isn't taking this lying down. It was infuriating to see them hijack delegates and transfer her win of 4 to Obama. The Chicago voter fraud wing of the democratic party cannot be allowed to take over and dominate our party. We have seen it first hand, and we do not want this corruption overwhelming our party, especially with no checks and balances or Congressional watchdogs to guard the fort.

  • "What does "martyred her, and moved beyond her" mean?"

    It means that we understand that she has to endorse BO because she will be destroyed politically if she doesn't, and we will actively work to defeat BO, while defecting to McCain in huge numbers, so that she will have another chance in 2012.

    That's the deal.

  • on a comment on A Message from Hillary Clinton over 6 years ago

    "stay in race until convention and try to get nominated, because she is much better candidate and she has better chances in November;"

    I said almost exactly the same things in my email to her, which I sent along with my largest donation to date.

    We will be demonstrating against Obama and the DNC at their high ticket ($28,500.00 per person) fundraiser in manhattan today, in opposition to the theft of delegates and disenfranchisement of voters in FL and MI. This isn't over.

  • I don't believe all these Obama supporters care about the country, or the 50% plus of Democrats who voted for Hillary Clinton because she reflects our values and addresses our concerns. She WON THE POPULAR VOTE, and that gives us all the time we want.

    All you care about is your guy winning, it's power, pure and simple. All the cynical and mercenary attributions you project onto Clinton reflect your own agendas and manipulativeness. The bullying, thuglike tactics aren't working, and in fact are backfiring, they are exactly what is inspiring the defiance and anger and rejection you see from Clinton and her loyal supporters. We can hold those delegates until Denver. Sweat it out as long as you like. Spin, squeal, and bluster all you like

    That ugly tactic of stealing 4 lousy delegates from Clinton's Michigan winnings has probably done more to harden our defiance into steel, and drive this thing all the way to Denver. Spit in our faces again and it is guaranteed. The more you threaten, insult, and try to intimidate, the fiercer our resolve becomes.

    Oh, and save the pretty speeches, we go by people's actions, not their words, the fake Hollywood air kiss doesn't fly here.


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