• on a comment on Newfound Respect for PUMA over 6 years ago

    There is no conflict of goals with PUMAs supporting John McCain.

    The only grounds on which the super delegates are empowered to vote for a nominee is to vote for the person who is most electable. If BO is collapsing in the polls because more and more people are either not going to vote, or will vote for John McCain, the SDs will have good reason to vote for Hillary Clinton as a substitute. So supporting John McCain is conditional, and is contingent on Hillary Clinton not being the nominee. As soon as Hillary Clinton is nominated, our votes, donations, and volunteerism returns to support her.

    Supporting McCain as our second choice, to roll back support for BO, is a tactic, not a goal. The goal is the same - elect Hillary Clinton as our President.

  • on a comment on Newfound Respect for PUMA over 6 years ago

    "They're working against what should be our common goal: Putting Barack Obama -- or, to be more generic, a Democrat "

    Wrong. PUMA wants to put a REAL Democrat in the White House - Hillary Clinton. Not a DINO.

    It's not over yet, until every last vote is counted.

  • There is nothing "right wing" about the very real and profound divisions between the two groups, and they won't be forgotten any time soon.

  • After Chelsea has seen what the vicious, unprincipled Right and the even more vicious, unprincipled Left have done to her mother and father why in the world would she be willing to run for any office? Voters and the Democratic Party don't deserve people of any reasonable caliber running for office, they treat them horrifically, and it reflects only on them, not the candidate.

  • All the charges against Obama are sticking, no matter how contradictory, because he has deliberately obscured what he really stands for, which is nothing. He will go down in flames in November, and for the right reasons. People won't vote for a nonentity they cannot believe in. Even the ardent supporters are waking up to the fact that he is a corrupt, unprincipled product of marketing overlaid upon corrupt Chicago machine politics.

    Your sarcasm only serves to reinforce the divisions already firmly in place, but you folks keep whistling in the graveyard to distract yourselves from what you cannot face in your vacuous candidate, empty of integrity, destitute of all meaning and hope.

  • comment on a post Hagel Needs To Come Off The List over 6 years ago

    This is a repost of a comment made on an earlier thread, but it is more appropriate here.

    Obama never promised strength and fight back. He always promised "post partisan", "talk with your enemy" (as though that hadn't already been tried countless times by people of good will, but no, his inexperienced arrogance has it otherwise), "it's not left or right, it's the past against the future...", he always promised weakness and capitulation on core Democratic Party principles like universal health care, so now you Obama supporters have him trashing MoveOn, trashing Wesley Clark, supporting the rape of privacy and civil liberties on wiretapping, and hiring fewer women and paying them less, etc., and you are stuck with your spineless candidate capitulating on everything you hold dear. Don't say we didn't warn you. True Progressives would have stood against Obama, but no, they rather indulge in a fantasy.

    Clinton was the true liberal/progressive candidate, and she proved it by saying what she meant and standing by it. So you twisted her arm behind her back, demeaned and denounced her with flagrant lies about who she is, and now you are stuck with buyer's remorse. What crap.

    You can TR me here, HR me here, ban me here. It makes no difference regarding the truth of the damnable, childish disregard for fact and wisdom that this insane American Idolatry over BO has been. You will have to face the consequences of that self indulgence when nothing you believe in is honored by BO, and you get trashed by him in the end. That's what you get for star worship, instead of honoring the quality candidate you had begging for your reasoned, mature support. Grow up. Obama told you all exactly what he would do, just look at his past. Now he is laughing at all your votes, donations, and slavish devotion.

    I don't bother to read any replies after I post here, so don't expect any continuation of a discussion. I've had too much of pointless responding to stupidity here. You know where I stand, and I know where you stand, and whatever bonds once united us as Democrats are long gone, those bridges burned forever. And every day that you Obama supporters slander Clinton supporters as racists (so many of us are lifelong civil rights workers who have sacrificed untold costs for the cause) sets that division ever more in stone. Trashing us  with lies and garbage reconfirms that in fact, we are enemies, and will never work together again.

  • Obama never promised strength and fight back. He always promised "post partisan", "talk with your enemy" (as though that hadn't already been tried countless times by people of good will, but no, his inexperienced arrogance has it otherwise), "it's not left or right, it's the past against the future...", he always promised weakness and capitulation on core Democratic Party principles like universal health care, so now you Obama supporters have him trashing MoveOn, trashing Wesley Clark, supporting the rape of privacy and civil liberties on wiretapping, and hiring fewer women and paying them less, etc., and you are stuck with your spineless candidate capitulating on everything you hold dear. Don't say we didn't warn you. True Progressives would have stood against Obama, but no, they rather indulge in a fantasy.

    Clinton was the true liberal/progressive candidate, and she proved it by saying what she meant and standing by it. So you twisted her arm behind her back, demeaned and denounced her with flagrant lies about who she is, and now you are stuck with buyer's remorse. What crap.

    You can TR me here, HR me here, ban me here. It makes no difference regarding the truth of the damnable, childish disregard for fact and wisdom that this insane American Idolatry over BO has been. You will have to face the consequences of that self indulgence when nothing you believe in is honored by BO, and you get trashed by him in the end. That's what you get for star worship, instead of honoring the quality candidate you had begging for your reasoned, mature support. Grow up. Obama told you all exactly what he would do, just look at his past. Now he is laughing at all your votes, donations, and slavish devotion.

    I don't bother to read any replies after I post here, so don't expect any continuation of a discussion. I've had too much of pointless responding to stupidity here. You know where I stand, and I know where you stand, and whatever bonds once united us as Democrats are long gone, those bridges burned forever. And every day that you Obama supporters slander Clinton supporters as racists (so many of us are lifelong civil rights workers who have sacrificed untold costs for the cause) sets that division ever more in stone. Trashing us  with lies and garbage reconfirms that in fact, we are enemies, and will never work together again.

  • on a comment on How Did We Not See This Coming? over 6 years ago

    If people think that any Democrat should "get used to" being trashed by another, that is really naive. The degree to which Clinton supporters are alienated will show very dramatically at Denver and in November.

    All it takes is a few good organizers to keep up the drumbeat of attack, and it can influence the election. It's a huge mistake to dismiss the alienation and anger of a huge, active, long established contingent in the party, and the effects will be decisive.

    I know that people like to believe their anonymous efforts on the internet are either anonymous, or that they will not be held responsible for them, but the responsibility ultimately does trickle down, in permanent schisms and in steadfast opposition.

    There are many people willing to accept that our progressive agenda will need to be put on hold to some extent, in order to prevent the undermining of our party.

    This odious charge of "racism" leveled at every person who opposes Obama is one of the fault lines between the two groups, and the more it is used as a blunt bludgeon against all Clinton supporters, the less any of us feel invested in maintaining any type of relationship, even a disharmonious one, with the other side. Soon we will regard that charge as a badge of honor, leveled at people who maintain principles in the face of outrageous assault. It is merely a sign that you have stood up for yourself with integrity, and have gotten smeared.

    Remember that you can harm people irreparably, as you have with Paula Abeles, and it will make martyrs out of them, and that process dissociates our two opposing groups even further. The deceit and arrogance of your position on this is stunning. Don't think for a minute that Clinton supporters haven't noticed the real  assaults, and don't think we will accept them.

    Even more threatening to you is the fact that countless Clinton supporters have discovered how much the Left lies, just outright lies in order to manipulate, and that really has moved a number of people toward the Republican camp. I believe the "middle" will be recreated once again, based on how many people now disbelieve both sides of the polarized media and electorate. Blind party loyalty is no more in many people's minds, so many dedicated Democrats no longer are. That is a crack, threatening to become a chasm.

    The smear efforts against us are backfiring, and the few of us who still even bother to communicate with you, like myself, are letting you know about it. There are far more who won't bother ever communicating with you ever again. We are real people, not internet fantoms, and the hard work of tenacious people does pay off in the end. Trying to demonize us will backfire on you.

  • on a comment on How Did We Not See This Coming? over 6 years ago

    You might be surprised at that is going on behind the scenes there.

    Unlike this site, Red State allows people to contact one another, and the conversation has been surprising. There are points where people can actually have a civil discussion when their needs intersect. Many of my posts at Red State have been dog whistles for cooperation where it is strategic to do so, and have been very productive. I couldn't care less about the occasional Hillary hater, there are far, far more vicious Hillary haters here on this blog, and DK.

    I can at least excuse the Red Staters, because they have ideological objections to Hillary, so their hatred serves their purposes, while I have nothing but disdain for the progressives who just eviscerated the most progressive candidate in the race. That is sheer idiocy, and self injury.

    I have been far more viciously, stupidly attacked on this site on a particularly asinine level, with zero merit, along with countless other Clinton supporters, and yes, we are "enemies" at this point. Real enemies, because I do not countenance the extensive, systematic threats of violence and death that have dogged Clinton supporters, especially high profile supporters, all over the country. If I ever track down any of the purveyors of these threats I promise there will be indictments and criminal charges brought against them. I am not fooling around here. Voter fraud and intimidation is no joke. That is how much of an enemy I am. We are not on the same side, I don't believe "the ends justify the means" and if I catch anyone who has been supporting the illegal efforts made to harm the Clinton campaign, they will face prosecution. I will not rest until those people are brought to justice.

    There is no way, ever that I will accept the things that were done to harm Clinton in this primary, and neither should any decent citizen of this country. I will never support Obama.

    It went way too far over the line, and those who I am addressing know who they are.

    Comments made against me here have zero effect on me, no more than RedStaters who hate. I laugh at them, if I even bother to read the drivel, which I have not for months, and keep to pursuit of justice.

  • FISA is only the start of the Obama roll back on Progressive values.

    You "netroots" Obama supporters did not support the genuinely progressive candidate, Hillary Clinton, who has the balls to fight for progressive values. and backed Obama while true progressives tried in vain to point out his center-right positions, advisors, etc., and his unwillingness to stand up for any articulated principles. It felt like shit to be verbally abused by you folks then, because our arguments went against your delusions about who Obama is, and it feels like sh#t to watch the screeching over Obama standing by his center right positions now. Progressive values are screwed now.

    The only difference in the landscape now for Democrats like me is that I am completely alienated from most progressive groups I formerly worked with, any trust in those relationships has been totally destroyed, we have a nominee who is bringing in the corrupt Chicago voter fraud machine into dominance over the Democratic Party, and I doubt there will be any way to get rid of them in my lifetime, given their penchant for fixing elections (and nominating contests...). Fatal mistakes, and there is no going back. It's like a bad dream from which there is no awakening.

    Obama hasn't "betrayed" you, you betrayed your selves, and your values, by indulging your fantasy about him, despite his clear signals about his center right politics. You indulged a silly revenge thing over Hillary Clinton's AUMF vote, and sold progressive values down thew river for your sick, unforgiving childishness. Now you can all scream, "Betrayal" while he goes right ahead and does what he has said he will do.

    I'm not talking to anyone in particular here, just the generic progressive Obama supporter who failed, over and over, to face the facts about their fantasy candidate.

  • Just considering Nunn costs my vote, that and about a hundred additional reasons.

  • "I submit that the reason you are finding such friendly faces on Red State and Freeperville is because you aren't interested in Democratic issues, but in bashing Barack Obama."

    Yes, not just "bashing" him, but completely destroying his presidential campaign. That is just about the only thing we have in common with the Republicans. BO's style of Chicago political thuggery and election fraud practices must not take over our party and the country. We feel it is a crisis.

    Our progressive ideological goals can wait another 4 years, and a President McCain would be completely obstructed by a Democratic Congress, so there is no danger of a conservative agenda making any headway. BO isn't a true progressive, anyhow, and is not sincere about health care reform or progressive economic reform, and is more likely to take the country in the wrong direction, than McCain, would, because a Democratic Congress would support his right wing economic proposals.

  • I am a 52 year old man in emergency medicine, on the board of directors of my local Physicians for a National Health Program, a life long activist, left wing progressive who believes BO represents, and will bring to power, the worst, most corrupt election fraud Chicago machine politics this country has ever known, at a time when our party will have control of both houses of Congress, and there will be no Congressional oversight, no investigative watchdog, and legislative and political appointment processes will be set into motion to promote election fixing for the indefinite future. The corruption that BO brings to government creates a crisis in our party and our country. Voter fraud, voter intimidation, and vote theft should be everyone's enemy, not an acceptable means to power.

    I will never be a Republican, but I believe in fair and free elections, otherwise we have tyranny, and whoever gets into control via election fraud will overrule the people. In this current election I and countless others will vote against our own ideology to prevent this corruption from taking over our party.

  • "it is a simple question with a simple answer, what do you want, and lets not play around, answer the question honestly so we can just move on"

    You cannot undo the past, and what has transpired has convinced the most involved Clinton Democrats that BO is a fatally flawed candidate who we must prevent from reaching the presidency for the greater good of the American people. And the DNC is fatally corrupted and should be overturned. This is our sincere conclusion and I do not see any remedy. This is not a snap judgement, and every step of the way we made it clear that the way the primary process was proceeding was unacceptable. That repeat warning was totally ignored and outrage after outrage was piled on. We do not want the corrupt Chicago machine taking over our party or our country, we fear it far more than we fear John McCain, who would be obstructed at every turn as president, and who is a trustworthy enough person that he was asked by John Kerry to be his running mate not long ago.

    Senator McCain invited us to his Arlington office and met with us in person, and while we disagree with his views, we like and trust him as a person. We distrust and deeply dislike BO, and no one really knows where he stands on the issues, or what he would really do as president, and we dislike his noncommittal record, it smacks of deception and unprincipled opportunism. We feel stabbed in the back by people we trusted as friends. When trust is completely destroyed, there is no relationship left.

    I know you disagree, and that's your prerogative. I'm not here to argue or change any minds, but just for the sake of closure between us, I thought I would explain it once again. There isn't anything left to say, that's why most of us don't return here any longer to communicate with you. It's done.

    Well, I only came back to this blog to see whether any old friends were still posting. See you in Denver, I will bo one of those on the outside this time, shouting at you and probably getting tasered or something...

  • " I'm also certain that some of these people are not actually Democrats.  They may have voted that way on occasion, but never fully owned it."

    Why do you BO supporters keep saying this crap? You are dead wrong. All the Clinton supporters I know who are now the new Democrats for McCain movement are lifelong Democrats of 30 years or more who are outraged and repulsed by the tactics and dishonesty of the BO campaign and DNC. It is our profound commitment to the party that has fueled our intense disgust with everything that has happened. If our commitment to Democratic Party principles had not been so intense and deeply ingrained, our horror at what has happened to our party would not be so great. Only  great love can provoke such a reaction as that which you are seeing.

    I don't see anything short of total capitulation and renunciation of the illegitimate Obama nomination that will bring us back into the party, the bridges have been burned, and likely will flip the election to John McCain this year.

    Want to hear something really funny? When I used to post here every day I would regularly hear BO supporters tell Clinton supporters that they would feel more comfortable posting their stuff on Red State or some other conservative blog. Well, I finally  went over there and what's AMAZING is that even as a far left liberal progressive I am far more respected and treated with more civility on their blogs than I ever was here or on Daily Kos or DU, etc. It's awesome to actually have an intelligent, respectful conversation and civil disagreement with people there. My first comments were prodded by many to post as diaries, and made their rec lists immediately. It feels so much more productive than this stupid wasteland of repetitve, ruthless and vulgar nonsense that goes on here, to the exclusion of anything positive or growthful. People who value intelligent and fair minded discourse will like it over there, so Clinton supporters, come on over to Red State! You really will like it there, no joke! And they do not insist you agree with them, just that you not be trollish and flaming, and debate issues fairly, without slimy personal attacks, racism, etc.

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