Prop 8 Upheld

Per CNN: The 18,000 marriages performed will stand, but Prop 8 has been upheld. This is pretty much what was expected. More to come.

Update [2009-5-26 13:13:7 by Charles Lemos]: Having determined that none of the constitutional challenges to the adoption of Proposition 8 have merit, we observe that if there is to be a change to the state constitutional rule embodied in that measure, it must “find its expression at the ballot box.” (In re Marriage Cases, supra, 43 Cal.4th 757, 884 (conc. & dis. opn. of Corrigan, J.); see also id. at pp. 861, 878 (conc. & dis. opn. of Baxter, J.).)

To the ballot boxes, we must go it seems.

Update Lucas: The Courage Campaign has stepped up and been an incredible hub for leadership and organizing on this issue throughout the state in the wake of the November vote. They were out of the gate within minutes pledging to bring the issue back to the ballot box in 2010 after members voted 82.5% to aim for 2010 instead of 2012. Courage Campaign will be going up with this ad in the next 72 hours to help set the stage for the upcoming battle. (Update: Contribute to help air the ad here.)

It's a simple premise: Separate but equal is not actually equal, and minority rights cannot be voted away by the majority. It'll just take a little longer than many might have hoped.

It will also be interesting to see how the 18,000 upheld marriages function going forward in this newly-created legal space where these particular marriages are legal but the underlying principle which allowed them has been revoked. It would presumably test at some point the full faith and credit clause and the scope of DOMA as these married couples head to other states and seek to be treated as married.

But for today, it's the beginning of the battle for 2010. Day of Decision events will be taking place throughout the state and around the country. And on Saturday, activists for equality from all over with gather in Fresno to Meet in the Middle 4 Equality. I'd encourage everyone to get involved if you can- this is going to be expensive, long, and ugly before it's all over.

Update Lucas: I'll add commentary and statements on the flip as I get them, starting now with Speaker Pelosi and some early analysis from Calitics.

Statement from Speaker Pelosi:

"Today's ruling by the Supreme Court in support of Proposition 8 is deeply disappointing because this ballot initiative takes away individual rights. "I have long fought for equality for all of California's families and will strongly support efforts to restore marriage equality in California, so it can join the ranks of states such as Iowa and Vermont."

David Dayen and Robert Cruickshank are trading off at Calitics where Robert notes:

The decision is about as bad as it can get - the logic used to uphold Prop 8 is everything Ken Starr hoped it would be. Two key excerpts:

Contrary to petitioners' assertion, Proposition 8 does not entirely repeal or abrogate the aspect of a same-sex couple's state constitutional right of privacy and due process that was analyzed in the majority opinion in the Marriage Cases - that is, the constitutional right of same-sex couples to "choose one's life partner and enter with that person into a committed, officially recognized, and protected family relationship that enjoys all of the constitutionally based incidents of marriage" (Marriage Cases, supra, 43 Cal.4th at p. 829). Nor does Proposition 8 fundamentally alter the meaning and substance of state constitutional equal protection principles as articulated in that opinion. Instead, the measure carves out a narrow and limited exception to these state constitutional rights, reserving the official designation of the term "marriage" for the union of opposite-sex couples as a matter of state constitutional law, but leaving undisturbed all of the other extremely significant substantive aspects of a same-sex couple's state constitutional right to establish an officially recognized and protected family relationship and the guarantee of equal protection of the laws.

And the clear embrace of the Starr Doctrine:

Neither the language of the relevant constitutional provisions, nor our past cases, support the proposition that any of these rights is totally exempt from modification by a constitutional amendment adopted by a majority of the voters through the initiative process.

To the CA Supreme Court, voters can do whatever the fuck they want to via the initiative process.

CA is officially broken.

Update Lucas: Also at Calitics, Brian Devine notes that the Supreme Court created new law with this ruling:

Justice Werdegar, however, at least had the guts to call a spade a spade. She didn't hide behind the majority's false argument that California's law on revision/amendment distinction has always supported the decision to uphold Prop 8. Instead, she wrote her own concurring opinion specifically to point out what the majority hides: that the California Supreme Court had to make new law in order to reach its result of upholding Prop 8:

until today the court has gone only so far as to say that “a qualitative revision includes one that involves a change in the basic plan of California government, i.e., a change in its fundamental structure or the foundational powers of its branches.” (Legislature v. Eu, supra, at p. 509, italics added.) Today, the majority changes “includes” to “is,” thus foreclosing other possibilities.

* * *

The history of our California Constitution belies any suggestion that the drafters envisioned or would have approved a rule, such as that announced today, that affords governmental structure and organization more protection from casual amendment than civil liberties.

This is judicial activism. Today, the Supreme Court significantly narrowed the definition of what is a "revision" that has been California law since the 1894 case of Livermore v. Waite. They invented a new definition only because it would suit the result they wanted.



Display:


So I guess (none / 0)

it's back to the ballot box...people can vote to take away people's rights.


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:06:33 PM EST

Re: So I guess (none / 0)

As I have pointed at other blogs PEOPLE CAN AND COULD ALWAYS VOTE TO TAKE AWAY PEOPLE'S RIGHTS.

If we wanted, with enough of a majority we could amend the constitution of the United States to re-allow slavery or a specific class or in general. It's not easy and Proposition 8 does not meet this level of supermajority, but this idea that it's somehow un-American or illegal for a majority of people to take away the rights of a minority is just ignoring history or the reality of the system.


by MNPundit on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So I guess (none / 0)

Not really.

Yes, the Constitution can be amended to remove rights- it's happened in the past. But that is entirely a separate issue from the principles that are supposed to undergird the country.

Further, just because it's possible to end-around with a Constitutional amendment (which is what happened here), that doesn't mean that minority rights are supposed to be up for debate. In fact, it means that it IS illegal to take away minority rights- that's why it requires a Constitutional change.

All you're arguing is that sometimes the safeguards for minority rights don't work. Clearly nobody is going to disagree with that point today.


by Lucas O'Connor on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:55:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The principle that undergirds the country (none / 0)

Is the preference for the status quo - nothing more, nothing less.  

Given that the status quo has been racism, sexism, and homophobia, I don't see how anyone can believe that somehow that preference could be anything other than hostile to the rights of the minority.

Neither the Constitution nor the judicial system provide any inherent protection of the minority against the majority.  It's better to recognize that and prepare for it than perpetuate a myth that does nothing more than validate a bigoted system and decisions like this one.


by Drew on Tue May 26, 2009 at 03:33:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The principle that undergirds the country (none / 0)

If this is just going to be a discussion of who can be more cynically misanthropic, I'll just let someone else win.

Very little of what you said addresses the points I made, but I would note that if nothing else, the structure of the United States Senate protects the minority against the majority so you lose out of the gate.

I'd further say that while people often fail when faced with upholding the principles of protecting the rights of the minority from the majority, it doesn't mean that such principles don't or have not existed.


by Lucas O'Connor on Tue May 26, 2009 at 03:55:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The principle that undergirds the country (none / 0)

Lucas, your ignorance of history is astounding.

The filibuster has never been used to defend the minority.  In fact, it has most often been used to permit the racist status quo to continue in spite of the opposition of the majority.  The southern minority used it to prevent the passage of anti-lynching, anti-poll tax, and other civil rights legislation.

In fact, the filibuster exists to perpetuate the status quo - and, as I noted, to the extent that the status quo is racist, sexist, and homophobic, it exists to perpetuate bigotry.

Really, when DADT repeal, ENDA passage, or DOMA repeal go to the Senate, and the Republican minority uses the filibuster to stop one or more of them, do you think that would be an example of how the structure of the Senate protects the "minority"?

Or would it be an example of how the structure of the Senate protects the homophobic status quo?

Otherwise, if your principle does exist, how do you explain persistent institutional bigotry in the United States?  If the nation were, in fact, dedicated to the protection of the minority against the tyranny of the majority, then why does so much tyranny go unchecked?


by Drew on Tue May 26, 2009 at 05:09:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In these situations (none / 0)

the status quo IS the minority.


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Tue May 26, 2009 at 05:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The principle that undergirds the country (none / 0)

You miss the point dramatically again. I wasn't referring to the filibuster. I was referring to equal representation for each state regardless of population.


by Lucas O'Connor on Tue May 26, 2009 at 06:31:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Equal representation of every state (none / 0)

Does nothing to protect any minority, either, and it never has, and the evidence for that is the same as the filibuster.

Really, you want to pretend that the disproportionate power given to certain states is somehow comparable to a Constitutional guarantee of protection to racial or sexual minorities?  Really?


by Drew on Tue May 26, 2009 at 07:32:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Equal Representation (none / 0)

of each state was merely a compromise made with the small states in 1787 who were afraid Virginia and Pennsylvania were going to run everything.

One wonders why our founding fathers didn't tell Connecticut to STFU and deal with it?


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Tue May 26, 2009 at 07:43:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So I guess (none / 0)

I would say that the Constitution by definition contains the principles that undergird the country. But I still don't get why it's illegal to take away minority rights?

I'm a racial minority, and I don't think it's very different from sexual orientation in terms of what legal protections should be applied to it. It's not like I am blind to the situation.

But people can always choose to oppress the minority, legally. I simply cannot follow you saying that because it requires changing the constitution it is illegal. If you don't change it until you change the constitution, but then it becomes legal. Where is the illegality?


by MNPundit on Tue May 26, 2009 at 06:27:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sigh.... (none / 0)

An expected decision, and this was NOT about gay marriage, these were legal questions about the ballot process, etc.

Let me just take this opportunity to say a big F-you to the Mormon and Catholic leadership, polticial organizations masquerading as Spirtual Communities...Vicious old white bigots all...

Your days are numbered, as least for the Catholics, I pray the next generation overturns your intracted bigotry.


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:14:08 PM EST

Re: Sigh.... (2.00 / 1)

Bigotry?

From this 29-year-old African American originally from Detroit who voted for Prop. 8, I say: um, yeah.

Fine, you want to frame the Court's decision as a purely process issue, which it apparently was.

The Court's original decision on the issue was narrow to begin with (4-3), so it easily could have gone the other way, but the judicial activism displayed there likely galvanized many to vote for Prop. 8!


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Judicial Activist (none / 0)

I believe is the term my grandmother uses for Brown vs. Board of Education.


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Judicial Activism.... (none / 0)

Ah, yes...The bludgeon you conservatives use when a decision doesn't please you...

And, once and for all, NO ONE is buying your logic that because you're black, you are not capable of bigotry.

Being the music biz, I have seen many examples of black musicians I have worked with making racial and homophobiac statements.  

And, finally, the canard the Judicial Activism has much to do with this is crap...Swing a percentage of the Latino vote, mostly influenced by the Catholic Church, and prop 8 fails.


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judicial Activism.... (none / 0)

Did you just call me the c-word?

I mentioned race because you did in your original post.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:00:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh.... (none / 0)

Yes, bigotry.  Do you need it spelled out?


Howard Dean is my go-to guy
by lojasmo on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh.... (none / 0)

I am African-American. I am from the rural south. I grew up in a place where my first boss used to call me nigger. Yes, you are a bigot.

A stupid one at that. This same decision will come back to haunt minority groups in CA in the form of decision over immigration (they are already pushing now for such a ballot), race related matters and a wide variety of other topics.


by bruh3 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh.... (none / 0)

By the way, please stop pretending this is about your race. If you are going to be a bigot, stop hiding being race to do it. It's pathetic.


by bruh3 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:14:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh.... (2.00 / 1)

The only thing pathetic is your penchant for name-calling.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 03:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh.... (none / 0)

Yeah... you're a bigot.  You can dress it up all purty in Biblical quotes, or you can use your race to somehow inoculate yourself from the charge, but what it gets down to is seeing two men or two women together makes you feel icky... because you are a bigot.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:25:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh.... (2.00 / 1)

A symptom of bigotry is name-calling.

If anyone fits that apt description, it's you.

I upheld the best of our American heritage when I voted for Prop. 8: a belief that the Judeo-Christian principles from which a lot of our laws are taken should continue to undergird our laws and our decision-making, not be pushed aside in favor of chaos.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 03:59:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's good... (1.50 / 2)

wrap yourself in Religion...

Just like the Southern Baptists did in supporting Miscegenation laws a generation ago.

Funny how the irony just goes right over your head.


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's good... (none / 0)

No, it doesn't.

I appreciate what you're saying here.

But miscegenation and homosexuality aren't the same thing.

When this thing is brought back to the ballot box, it's gonna be harder for the "marriage equality" side to push an affirmative than it was for them to advocate for a negative in fighting Prop. 8.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:22:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who else do you dislike? (1.00 / 2)

Good lord, you're down on the Baptists now?

Honey, that's too many groups to assault in one day. You've now disparaged Mormons, "old people", Catholics, Baptists, and Southerners.

That must be some sort of MyDD record. Keep going....I'm sure you have something against Buddhists, Seventh Day Adventists, and a host of other religions and/or ethnic groups.


by BJJ Fighter on Tue May 26, 2009 at 05:53:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Southern Babtists, Baby Doll! (none / 0)

And, I just didn't start today, those patriarchial bigots have been on my radar for years.

Oh, get off it BJ, again, your record here is of a firebrand anti-Obama poster, you came down like a ton of bricks when ever possible.

Now, you're singing let's all embrace our Southern Babtist brethern.

Where do you think you logged into, MyKumbya.com?

Calling anyone a hater on the Left Wing Blog that has a problem with Southern Babtist?

You sure took a wrong term somewhere.


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Tue May 26, 2009 at 06:21:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You need to have a cocktail. (2.00 / 1)

Honey. Relax. Have a cocktail, or some good Washington State wine....tomorrow will be better.


by BJJ Fighter on Tue May 26, 2009 at 11:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pretty much anyone (none / 0)

who feels the need to shove their religious dogma and personal preferences down everyone's throats.

So yeah that's a lot of people.


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Tue May 26, 2009 at 06:48:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our laws aren't taken from (none / 0)

When is the last time you read Leviticus?


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:23:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What does Leviticus has to do with anything? (2.00 / 2)

Leviticus isn't the governing document of our country, so I don't see why that's relevant?

By the way, it's funny how none of you people ever complain about eating pork (Leviticus 11:8), shaving off beards of getting piercings (Leviticus 21:5), or why aren't you calling for burning at the stake any daughter of a clergyman who sleeps around (Leviticus 21:9).

Why is it you people are so ready to say you take your laws from Leviticus, but the only one you pay attention to are the laws about homosexuality. I want to you to defend whether or not we should burn prostitutes at the stake.

I've read the Bible four times, Leviticus five because before I read the Bible, I read the Torah. I've read the Quran, even the Upanishads. So my question stands, Zeit, why do you people seemingly enjoy ignoring the entire book of Leviticus EXCEPT the part about homosexuality? I think you should put your money where your mouth is and demand burning prostitutes at the stake and demand that those with problems seeing not be allowed in churches.


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What does Leviticus has to do with anything? (none / 0)

No response to this comment yet?  We're waiting...


by alamedadem on Tue May 26, 2009 at 05:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What does Leviticus has to do with anything? (none / 0)

Prepare for a long wait...Zeit gets asked reasonable questions like that all the time on this site, but never manages actually to address them.

Apparently, it's the nice thing about a religious-based position. Because it's based on faith, it doesn't have to be logically consistent.


by fsm on Tue May 26, 2009 at 06:04:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

bigots hide behind religion (none / 0)

It's so easy to defend bigotry when you can scapegoat God.

"It's not me, it's God"

But they NEVER respond to the other "laws" God has apparently made...just the one against the gays.

And until someone asks me why Leviticus is only important when we're discussing gays, I will continue to dismiss this stupid argument about the Bible.


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Tue May 26, 2009 at 06:42:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bigots hide behind religion (none / 0)

And since Jesus did away with Leviticus when dealing with the Law, Christians (if they are Christian) have no claim to cite Leviticus.


by Khun David on Wed May 27, 2009 at 01:55:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

they never respond (none / 0)

to these questions, which tells me all I need to know.


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Tue May 26, 2009 at 06:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our laws aren't taken from (2.00 / 1)

You're not serious, are you?

Ever have lobster or a shrimp cocktail?

Exodus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

Seriously, the morality of a desert-dwelling people who lived in caves 3,000 years ago who were afraid of thunder and herded goats has ZERO bearing on my life. Atheism, it's a non-prophet organization.


Follow me on Twitter.
by Charles Lemos on Tue May 26, 2009 at 05:46:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our laws aren't taken from (none / 0)

Hell, these people, who claim to defend "One marriage means one woman and one man" seem to forget that Leviticus mandates polygamy under some circumstances.


by Khun David on Wed May 27, 2009 at 01:57:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our laws aren't taken from (none / 0)

You people?


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:23:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, People that want to shove the bible (none / 0)

or THEIR version of Biblical reading down other peoples throats...

Those people.

Just like, as I said above, and you of course have NO real answer for, the Religious Southern Bigots tried a generation ago...

Those people, who sadly, would not feel comfortable with you showing up at their meetings.

A sad fact, your allies in this dislike you almost as much as they do gays?


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:28:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh.... (none / 0)

Mmmm. I would argue a symptom of bigotry is choosing to separate a class of tax-paying Americans and tell them that they cannot have the same rights or privileges that you have, simply because of a basically immutable trait such as gender or sexual orientation.  That's what you did, and that is what you are defending.

Name-calling is more a symptom of immature argumentation and sputtering anger, both of which I freely admit to engaging in on this sad, sad Tuesday. I think in retrospect my name-calling will be much more understandable to future generations than your shameful stance, bigot.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Wed May 27, 2009 at 01:44:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Any other groups you want to villify? (none / 0)

Let's see....in one post, you've spewed your bile at Mormons, Catholics, and "vicious old white bigots...." Any other people on whom you need to vent your hate?

Supporters of Proposition 8 were all ages (not just "old" people), all faiths, and all colors. Given that you worship at the altar of political correctness, I'm not surprised that you left African Americans out of your assault....but the LA Times'exit polls showed support for Prop 8 in the black community at approx. 70%. Not surprisingly, you're determined to overlook this inconvenient truth. Ah, but those awful Catholics and Mormons....go get 'em!

And I'm sure you also choose to overlook the fact that our President opposes gay marriage, taking the more sensible position is support of civil unions.


by BJJ Fighter on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:51:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He also opposed Proposition 8 (none / 0)


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BJ, we all remember you from the Primary (none / 0)

You calling ANYONE out about their comments is truly comedy gold.  

MyDD is collective holding it's sides and chuckling at you...

It's kind of like now listening to Rush Limbaugh talk about drug policy?

Oh, he doesn't anymore so much.

Take a hint from Rush, you have baked yourself on being just another conservative pretending to be a progressive on this board.

Wouldn't your biblical slant on Equality work better on Red State or Town Hall?


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Tue May 26, 2009 at 05:04:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh.... (2.00 / 1)

If this next generation Catholic has anything to say about it...

(I'm 42, which is barely adulthood by Catholic church standards given the average age of remaining adherents)

... this misanthropic homophobic idiocy will settle into that ol' dust bin along with medical bleeding, trial by ordeal, and the almost unforgivable heresy of thinking the Earth revolves around the Sun.

Let's compare & contrast... although I disagree, I really understand the fervent fight against abortion rights by those who believe that a fetus is a separate human life from the moment of conception. IF one takes that position and believes it wholeheartedly, then abortion to them is murder.

(Anti-abortion activists undermine themselves if they start throwing around exceptions for rape or incest, since neither of those have any bearing on whether the fetus is in fact a 'human life' and thus those supporting that line of thought reveal their opposition to abortion as nothing more than an attempt to be punitive for 'bad behavior' by the woman involved).

Anyway, for those who honestly feel abortions are murder, and demonstrate that belief with consistency in their positions, I can see where that'd be the biggest deal there is to them, as abortion is so common and murder is pretty much the most heinous crime one can commit.

On the other hand, some officious prick with a collar on recently expanded on abortion as the most important and vital issue facing our society... along with gay marriage.

As there are no lives at stake, AND seeing that gay individuals will reside with their partners regardless of religious or legal proclamations... the fight from the man-woman-only side boils down to our society being threatened by gay individuals getting tax breaks, insurance benefits, and rights of inheritance.

(At least from a legal perspective on the anti-gay-marriage side; obviously the issue is much more vital if you're gay and your rights are being violated)

Therefore, opponents of gay marriage have no legitimate argument on which to voice such strenuous objections (nobody dies, nobody is forced into a gay marriage, etc.). This fact displays a degree of bigotry and ignorance whose existence at this point in time is nothing short of stunning, and a sad commentary on how far our thinking has come over the last few years / centuries / millennia.

So they can kiss my ass.

And


by RecoveringRepublican on Tue May 26, 2009 at 05:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kudos for this Decision! (none / 0)

I love the smell of snark in the morning.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:29:18 PM EST

Re: Kudos for this Decision! (2.00 / 1)

Fan of discrimination?  Great!


Howard Dean is my go-to guy
by lojasmo on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:04:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kudos for this Decision! (none / 0)

Right. Brown v Board of Education was unconscionable. Why do we even have Supreme Courts when people can just vote?


by Lucas O'Connor on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:33:49 PM EST

Re: The differences between blacks and gays. . . (none / 0)

I don't actually see the difference.

But let's assume I do see the difference, and that racial bigotry embodied by Brown v Board of Ed is substantively worse than the religious bigotry embodied in laws like Prop 8 that deny my already valid marriage.

Given that difference, what's the point: we shouldn't try and fix the religious bigotry when we encounter it because somehow it doesn't measure up to the truly repugnant racial bigotry? What does it matter if they can be equated or not?


by fsm on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ok so if you were able to hide your race (none / 0)

then it would be ok to discriminate?


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The differences between blacks and gays. . . (none / 0)

So you should only be afforded rights for who you are when it's obvious by looking at you?

Besides which, your argument was that courts should not overturn the will of the people. Segregation was the will of the people in certain states and the Supreme Court overturned it. So either your position is that the Court should never overturn the will of the people in which case you're opposed to Brown v BoE or you think the court shouldn't overturn the will of the people in this case in which case you're arguing that certain groups have court-protected civil rights and certain groups do not.


by Lucas O'Connor on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Losing the Battle, Winning the War (2.00 / 1)

The forces of bigotry won this battle, but they're losing the war.  I believe the fallout of Prop 8 was a catalyst for the legislative branches in VT, NH, and ME taking the side of  marriage equality over this past Spring.  There's nothing quite like taking away existing rights to get people up in arms.

And regardless of today's decision, by allowing the 18,000 marriages to stand, the Supreme Court has fundamentally changed the way the State does business.  All forms, procedures, etc., on the state level will have to take same-sex couples into account, and the more that same-ex couples start to refer to each in everyday as husbands and wives, the harder it will be for the forces of bigotry to gain traction the next time around.

I feel for my friends in California who decided to wait until after Nov 4, but I am overjoyed for those who took the plunge between June and November.  This isn't over, it is just delayed.


by Dreorg on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:40:23 PM EST

Re: Losing the Battle, Winning the War (none / 0)

a) Their opinion was non-sensical. The logic of their own decison said they should have nullified the 18,000 marriages. that would have been legally consistent. It creates an equal protection mess that I will not go into here.

b) What this ensures is that there is no right can not be decided under CA con law at the ballot box. At least, it leaves that question now open becaue I doubt they will see things the same when immigration comes up.

c) For gay rights it means a continuing back and forth tug of war at the ballow box. We put a bill out in 2010. We win. The conserva-christians put one on in 2012. They win. This can yo-yo for years.


by bruh3 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:19:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Losing the Battle, Winning the War (none / 0)

I'm not a lawyer, so what the ruling means for the State of CA referendum process isn't something I'm qualified to render an opinion on.  

My interest is in the practical effects of the back-and-forth.  And it looks like the long run effect of the past year's debate in California will be to normalize the relationships same-sex couples while framing the opposition within public discourse as the unreasonable fringe.


by Dreorg on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:38:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Losing the Battle, Winning the War (none / 0)

I am not sure what practical means when discussing legal questions, which is what marriage laws are. The practical effect is that we will have to fight these ballots again and again at the ballot, wasting huge sums of money which could be going to other states and other battles.


by bruh3 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:47:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Losing the Battle, Winning the War (none / 0)

I've already said it, but I'll say it again.

It means that the experience coming out of the back and forth of Prop 8 helped move forward legislation in VT, NH, and ME.  It means that people more people in CA will be exposed to married same-sex couples.  It normalizes the idea of same-sex marriage in the minds of more people, and, generationally, solidifies the majority of Millenials against the bigots.

People really don't like to see rights taken away.  The more exposure there is to Bob and Joe down the street worrying about paying the mortgage and keeping their lawn mowed, the more marriage equality seems normative and opposition to it seems like the fringe position.


by Dreorg on Tue May 26, 2009 at 03:02:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Losing the Battle, Winning the War (none / 0)

resources are finite. We are wasting a huge some of money on a state that is not even the most difficult state to achieve marriage equality. I know peo want to look on the bright side, but let's call a duck a duck. thi si a set back.


by bruh3 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:39:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Losing the Battle, Winning the War (none / 0)

I didn't say it wasn't a setback.  Hence "losing the battle."  But it is short term, at best, and it has had the positive side effect of mobilizing GLBTs and allies across the country.


by Dreorg on Tue May 26, 2009 at 05:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Losing the Battle, Winning the War (none / 0)

I would prefer they were mobilize in other states that are more pressing like NY.


by bruh3 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 06:02:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Our President also opposes gay marriage (none / 0)

and I'd hardly accuse him of "bigotry". He takes the same reasoned position as many others in supporting civil unions.

The opponents of Prop 8 continue to use words like "bigotry", even as they villify Mormons. This is a pretty selective attack, given that several different demographic groups oppose same sex marriage. It's pretty cynical and craven to single out one which is at risk, having been much maligned throughout our history.

I don't see how you can say that those who oppose same sex marriage are losing the war, when voters in 30 states have spoken. I guess you're right, and the world is wrong?


by BJJ Fighter on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:31:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our President also opposes gay marriage (none / 0)

Why do peo think by saying the president does it, that some out makes it less bigoted? It means he 's contributing to teh same bigotry that's all. His status does not change what he is saying when he wants to discriminate by treating gays as separate but equal. Next you will be saying Jim Crow was not bigotry or the laws against interracial marriage was not bigotry. You make, and Obama makes the exact same arguments.


by bruh3 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 04:41:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He opposed Prop 8 (none / 0)

Ask those 30 states what they think in 20 years. You'll find it'll much much different.

I can't tell you how royally pissed my generation is about this. ESPECIALLY the ones who aren't gay.

You're losing the war.


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Tue May 26, 2009 at 05:02:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gallup says YOU'RE losing the war: (none / 0)

Latest poll from Gallup (5/27/2009):

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118378/Majori ty-Americans-Continue-Oppose-Gay-Marriag e.aspx

As many of us have been trying to tell you folks (ad nauseam) for quite some time, the results on this issue have changed very little since 2007, when support peaked at 46%. Now, support for gay marriage has declined to 40%.

The President has spoken, the people have spoken. Enough.


by BJJ Fighter on Sun May 31, 2009 at 02:36:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our President also opposes gay marriage (none / 0)

I don't have to agree with our President on 100% of his positions to support him and the current administration, and challenge it when I think it is incorrect.

I don't believe that you could find a single quote from me villifying Mormons.  If you'ld like to challenge my hypotheses, leave out arguments I've never made.  Pulling out strawmen undermines the credibility of your remaining arguments.

The tide is turning, slowly.  You conveniently ignore the trends in polling on the issue, all of which are favorable for marriage equality.  And the court and legislative results during 2009 as a whole.  On January 1, there were two states that recognize gay marriage.  Today, there are five.

The arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice.  That's something Secretary of State Clinton understands.  Too bad that one lesson of hers you've chosen to set aside.


by Dreorg on Tue May 26, 2009 at 05:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Since you mention trends in polling.... (none / 0)

Here's the latest from Gallup:

http://www.gallup.com/home.aspx

57% opposed to same sex marriage, 40% in favor. This one is dated 5/27/2009. What polls are you looking at?


by BJJ Fighter on Sun May 31, 2009 at 02:27:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Prop 8 Upheld (none / 0)

Join Repair California: http://www.repaircalifornia.org and lets write equality into a new state constitution!


by pleahy on Tue May 26, 2009 at 01:45:03 PM EST

come to Iowa! (none / 0)

Marriage equality is here to stay, and Iowa will recognize the same-sex marriages performed in California (so says my friend who married her partner in CA last summer--she's looked in to this).

Cost of living is lower than in California too...


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:01:04 PM EST

Re: come to Iowa! (none / 0)

On the other hand, I'd be in Iowa.


by Lucas O'Connor on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:06:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You got a problem with me and desmoinesdem? (none / 0)

...you wanna step out back into the corn?

(I've lived in Iowa for the past 3 years...)


by MNPundit on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

where you could buy (none / 0)

twice the house for half the money and have a very short commute. And we even have decent ethnic food now!


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Tue May 26, 2009 at 03:48:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: where you could buy (none / 0)

Not if I'm commuting to California. :)


by Lucas O'Connor on Tue May 26, 2009 at 06:32:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: come to Iowa! (none / 0)

The winters scare me though I do love Hy-Vee.


Follow me on Twitter.
by Charles Lemos on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:08:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hy-Vee (none / 0)

My sister has lived outside the state for 30 years and still stops at our local Hy-Vee right away whenever she visits--swears it's better than any grocery store near her (Maryland suburbs of DC).


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Tue May 26, 2009 at 03:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: come to Iowa! (none / 0)

I lived in Minnesota and North Dakota before Iowa. (I'm also Latino so you can't use blood as a way to weasel out of it).

Iowa winters are pretty mild.


by MNPundit on Tue May 26, 2009 at 06:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: come to Iowa! (none / 0)

Mild? Compared to Manitoba perhaps. Or alternatively you and I have different definitions of the word "mild."

I also don't own a car and that limits where I can live. I have been to Iowa several times to visit Hy-Vee in Des Moines. Great company. Employee owned too.


Follow me on Twitter.
by Charles Lemos on Tue May 26, 2009 at 08:45:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

have fun! (none / 0)

I've never been to Muscatine, but most Mississippi River towns have some interesting architecture and local history.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Tue May 26, 2009 at 03:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I do moderate (2.00 / 1)

when I am around. I chose to be around today. Bigotry is not welcomed.

If you are going to spout anti-gay rhetoric, get thee to Free Republic.

Human rights are not differences of opinion.


Follow me on Twitter.
by Charles Lemos on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:16:54 PM EST

On the plus side (none / 0)

From the LA Times:

Even with the court upholding Proposition 8, a key portion of the court's May 15, 2008, decision remains intact. Sexual orientation will continue to receive the strongest constitutional protection possible when California courts consider cases of alleged discrimination. The California Supreme Court is the only state high court in the nation to have elevated sexual orientation to the status of race and gender in weighing discrimination claims.


Follow me on Twitter.
by Charles Lemos on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:23:43 PM EST

Re: On the plus side (none / 0)

Which means absolutely nothing because all such actions can be overturn at the ballot box. What this guarantees is a continued battle over the issues at the ballow box- that's it. In saying that all rights are now overturnable by bare majority.


by bruh3 on Tue May 26, 2009 at 02:36:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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