The Return of Fairness in America

The budget proposals seek to reverse the rapid increase in economic inequality over the last 30 years.

That was the byline in the New York Times story by David Leonhardt entitled Obama's Budget Plan Sweeps Away Reagan Ideas. I had to take a moment and cry when I saw the byline. Sweet tears of pure joy. For the past ten years of my life, as my friends can attest, this has been my oft-repeated charge - the United States is headed for disaster if income equality continues to rise. I've been invited to parties on the condition that I don't talk about income inequality and gini co-efficients. And so to read this, my thoughts ran so this is what it feels like to win and it is truly sweet. Even as I write, the tears continue to stream down but I don't care because this is post that I have been waiting to write in celebration and one that I can write off the top of my head for my one issue is restoring fairness in the distribution of wealth. Reversing income inequality in this country and then beyond our shores is that which matters most. Undoing neo-liberalism. Undoing Reaganism. Undoing Thatcherism. This is why I am progressive because income inequality needs to be reversed. Fairness in America matters.

The budget that President Obama proposed on Thursday is nothing less than an attempt to end a three-decade era of economic policy dominated by the ideas of Ronald Reagan and his supporters.

The Obama budget -- a bold, even radical departure from recent history, wrapped in bureaucratic formality and statistical tables -- would sharply raise taxes on the rich, beyond where Bill Clinton had raised them. It would reduce taxes for everyone else, to a lower point than they were under either Mr. Clinton or George W. Bush. And it would lay the groundwork for sweeping changes in health care and education, among other areas.

More than anything else, the proposals seek to reverse the rapid increase in economic inequality over the last 30 years. They do so first by rewriting the tax code and, over the longer term, by trying to solve some big causes of the middle-class income slowdown, like high medical costs and slowing educational gains.

Just how far have we fallen during that three-decade era of economic policy dominated by the ideas of Ronald Reagan and his supporters? Well, a UN report last year on urban poverty found that out of the world's 120 major cities New York was found to be the ninth most unequal in the world and Atlanta, New Orleans, Washington, and Miami had similar inequality levels to those of Nairobi, Kenya and Abidjan, Côte d'Ivoire. In western New York state nearly 40% of the black, Hispanic and mixed-race households earned less than $15,000 compared with 15% of white households. The life expectancy of African-Americans in the US is about the same as that of people living in China and some states of India, despite the fact that the US is far richer than the other two countries. Is this right? Is this America? It is the America that Reagan has wrought and that President Obama seeks to undo. Undoing Reagan, how sweet the sound.

"High levels of inequality can lead to negative social, economic and political consequences that have a destabilising effect on societies. They create social and political fractures that can develop into social unrest and insecurity." United Nations Report on Urban Poverty, 2008

Unequal societies have throughout history been prone not just to social upheaval but also to economic turmoil. Beginning in the 1970s and accelerating after 1980, the US began undoing a series of policies that dated to FDR led to what historians call the "Great Compression" a flattening of income so that by 1964 the ratio of CEO pay to average worker pay was 24:1, the narrowest in the nation's history. Before the financial meltdown the ratio was around 400:1, or back to levels last seen in the late 1920s. And this is actually down from a high of 525:1 in 2000 (the reason is that executive compensation is largely paid in stock). In 1970, the top 1% of Americans controlled 8% of the nation's wealth, by 2000 they controlled 15%. In 1973, the income of the top 20 percent of American families was 7.5 times that of the bottom 20 percent. By 1996, it was 13 times. By 2006, it was 18 times.

In regard to inequality, over the past few decades it has risen more in the US than in most other advanced industrial countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, or OECD, a group compromising the world's wealthiest countries. Indeed, by most measures, the US ranks near the top (some might say the bottom depending on your perspective) in terms of household income inequality. The inequality gap in the United States is associated with higher levels of overall and child poverty relative to a majority of OECD countries and even some developing countries.

This high and growing level of relative inequality in the US reflects, in part, differences in the "social safety net," which is an array of "social insurance" programmes. Among the 30 OECD countries, the US ranks above only Mexico, Korea, and Ireland in gross public social expenditures as a share of GDP spending, and it does the least to target government taxes and transfers towards moving families out of poverty. Not surprisingly, social measures such as infant mortality and life expectancy are worse in the US than in most advanced industrial countries and in fact worse than in some developing countries. Infant mortality for African-Americans ranks higher (that is worse) than in Cuba, Colombia or Brazil. The poverty rate among America's single mothers is also the highest in the industrialized world, with 59 per cent raising children on incomes which are less than half the typical national income.

On almost every measure, Americans grew apart over the past 30 years. The chasm between rich and poor is not just wider but also deeper. As Paul Krugman noted at height of the market turbulence this past month "we are a banana republic with nukes." These results aren't by accident. In 2009, the US is far poorer as a collective society than we were in 1964 despite our many technological comforts. The Reagan economic model gave us cheap imported electronics but at a cost of being able to send our kids to college. The harsh reality is that the United States is a cleft nation as a result of the Friedmanistic economic policies pursued by Republican and Democrat alike since 1968 and cleft nations have a propensity to fail. It is not, I think, a coincidence that 2008 saw an economic meltdown when income inequality in the United States reached the same levels in 2008 that we last saw in 1928.

The history of the United States economy over the last 70 years can be roughly divided into two periods: the decades immediately after World War II, when inequality plummeted, and the past three decades, when global economic forces and government policies caused it to soar. Mr. Obama is setting out to begin a third period that looks more like the first than the second.

That agenda starts with taxes. Over the last three decades, the pretax incomes of the wealthiest households have risen far more than they have for other households, while the tax rates for top earners have fallen more than they have for others, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

As a result, the average post-tax income of the top 1 percent of households has jumped by roughly $1 million since 1979, adjusted for inflation, to $1.4 million. Pay for most families has risen only slightly faster than inflation.

Before becoming Mr. Obama's top economic adviser, Lawrence H. Summers liked to tell a hypothetical story to distill the trend. The increase in inequality, Mr. Summers would say, meant that each family in the bottom 80 percent of the income distribution was effectively sending a $10,000 check, every year, to the top 1 percent of earners.

Mr. Obama's budget reflects that sensibility. Budget experts were still sorting through the details on Thursday, but it appeared that various tax cuts and credits aimed at the middle class and the poor would increase the take-home pay of the median household by roughly $800.

The tax increases on the top 1 percent, meanwhile, will most likely cost them $100,000 a year.

"The tax code will become more progressive, with relatively higher rates on the rich and relatively lower rates on the middle class and poor," said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center in Washington. "This is reversing the effects of the Bush policies," he added, and then going even further.

It is a moral imperative to reverse Reaganism. As John Edwards noted back in 2007, there are two Americas. And the differences between them are startling in very surprising but totally predicable ways. Let's look at the impact on one measure of health, life expectancy. The US ranked 38th in life expectancy in 2008. In 1964, the US ranked 10th. In 1964, the ratio of CEO to average worker pay stood at 24:1. That was the zenith of fairness in America. And our decline in broad measures of health and well-being is tied to rise of income inequality. But let's dig a little deeper.

On average, US life expectancy rose by three years (from 73.7 to 76.7) between 1980 and 2000, but the largest gains were made by the most affluent layers of the population, leading to a growing gap in life expectancy between the lower and higher income groups.

In a study for US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), Dr. Gopal Singh and Professor Mohammed Siahpush measured social and economic conditions in every US county by examining 2000 census data on education, income, poverty, housing and other factors.

The report said in 1980-1982, people in the most affluent group could expect to live 2.8 years longer than those in the poorest (75.8 versus 73 years). By 1998-2000, the difference in life expectancy had increased to 4.5 years (79.2 versus 74.7), and it continues to widen.

"Life expectancy was higher for the most affluent in 1980 than for the most deprived group in 2000," he said. "If you look at the extremes in 2000," Dr. Singh added, "men in the most deprived counties had 10 years' shorter life expectancy than women in the most affluent counties (71.5 versus 81.3 years)."

Nancy Krieger, a professor at the Harvard School of Public Health, has found that trends in life expectancy have paralleled the decrease or increase in social inequality over the past 40 years. Kreiger found that the rate of premature mortality--dying before the age of 65--and infant death from 1960 to 2002, shrank between 1966 and 1980, but then widened over the next 20 years.

"The recent trend of growing disparities in health status is not inevitable," she said. "From 1966 to 1980, socio-economic disparities declined in tandem with a decline in mortality rates." She said the creation of Medicaid and Medicare--the two major federal programs for the poor and elderly--along with health centers, the social programs of LBJ's "war on poverty" had contributed to a narrowing the earlier inequalities in health.

And so it is a matter of extreme historical importance tonight that we stand to ready bridge the chasm between exceedingly wealthy and exceedingly poor. To be one nation again, a nation that boasts a large and prosperous middle class. A nation that can afford health care for all and that can afford to send its kids to college. These are American values. This is what the journey of America is all about. It is a journey we take together as a people. As long as one American is left behind then we have not lived up to the vision of the Founding Fathers of a country where there is equality of opportunity for all. I want to thank the President and his team for living up to his comments of October 13th 2008 when he promised to "spread the wealth around."



Display:


I must confess (none / 0)

that I was impressed by the budget too... (I have been somewhat sceptical of the hope so far)

The things that impressed me were the moneys set aside for health care reform, and the reduction in mortgage tax deductions!


by Ravi Verma on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 01:28:19 AM EST

He told you.... (2.00 / 1)

This is not a time for small things....

I will ALSO state, at the risk of opening old wounds, THE MOMENT I truly believed he was going here was a moment when many ripped him.

It was when he spoke about Reagan way back in the primaries.

He did it in the context of a Generation Change, and of Framing of Ideas and of Moving the Country.

Right then I truly believed, IF he got elected, his intention was nothing less then undoing Reaganism....

So, in that context, when he did things that infuriated many on the left, reached out to Evangelicals, kept talking to the right, I truly believed he was looking at how Reagan did it, HOW did he pull the country to the right as he did.

So, IF I was an Obama kool-aid drinker, that probably was the moment I took the brew.

Yes, I WANTED our Ronald Reagan, I wanted someone to reverse 30 years of pulling this country to the right.

I didn't need to cry tonight, Charles.

I cried the night he won the nominated, because I truly believed this day was coming then.

On Election day, Obama ended the Southern Strategy, the political schema that Nixon birthed and Reagan perfected.

And, when this Budget Bill passes, he will begin undoing 3 decades of Reaganism.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/0 2/27/obama_budget/?source=newsletter


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by WashStateBlue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 02:49:09 AM EST

Yeah (2.00 / 2)

people didn't understand that he was referring to Reagan as someone who was effective in getting the electorate to support his vision of what America should look like.  They took an observation about Reagan's rhetorical and political strategy as an endorsement of his policy agenda.  


by JJE on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 03:52:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (none / 0)

There is a difference between being impressed by Reagan's political skills/ability to move the electorate and his policies.  I was impressed by the former but hated the later.


by jmnyc on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 10:54:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

Undoing Reagan, how sweet the sound


by devil on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 06:30:38 AM EST

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

It's a good first step, but it doesn't go far enough in undoing Reagan--you compare Reagan's first budget to this, you will see Reagan's as far more radical in its departure from the past.

Obama is simply restoring the status quo pre-Bush, which means Clinton vis-a-vis tax rates. Tax rates for the rich ought to be much higher than the 39.6% he'd be taking them to, especially considering his massive $700 billion +  permanent tax cut for everyone else (which I think is misguided) which obviously creates a $700 billion + hole in the budget that the increase in taxes for the rich won't come close to covering.


by need some wood on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 06:57:54 AM EST

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

Not true. Robert Reich said this is the most progressive budget in over 40 years.


by Lolis on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

I agree.

It doesn't dengrade Bill to realize he was hamstrung with a Republican congress and a country that was still in the grips of the Republican meme.

Remember "This is the end of big Government"...

The mood was DLC, NOT New FDR or Great Society.

Also, Obama HAS a moment Bill did not.

This is a generational moment, the shift in voting power from the Boomers to the Millenials will only accelerate.

Bill was stuck with that moment of peace and prosperity, so it was easy for the Republicans to demonize the push toward Universal Health Care.

In this moment, Obama has an audience that has seen the NIGHTMARE of what NOT having U Health Care has done.

Change needs a moment.

It's not a knock on Bill Clinton that the cards are more in place for Obama.

Sorry, to disagree with the original poster, THIS is WAY more a sea change then anything Bill sent to congress....


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by WashStateBlue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:29:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

Excellent diary Charles!

To NSW one has take the first step. Trying to undo Reagan in one fell swoop would probably end up with nothing happening. The push back would be greater than the push forward.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 08:12:26 AM EST

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

I'd save tears of joy for what, if anything progressive actually gets signed. There is a Grand Canyon hoking wide gap between proposal and any law passed by Congress. There are the richest, most powerful vested interests in the world aligned against everything Obama's proposal seeks to do. Also, remember that Obama 'learned his lesson' on Stimulus: aim high so you have lots to chuck overboard...I mean room to compromise. Whatever, if anything that gets passed will hardly resemble what has been proposed.

What is well worth the tears of joy is to just have such notions on the table. No democrat with access to the limelight for 40 years has been bold enough to state them. republicans and their corporate media enablers have been fighting tooth and nail for 30 years to keep these ideas of equality, community, opportunity for all away from the people because their truth and wisdom are so very self-evident. And the opposite of these ideas, i.e., republican/conservative plutocratic greed and corruption are so very self-evidently poison to the average citizen when contrasted against notions of equality, community, opportunity for all.


by gak on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 08:18:38 AM EST

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

Excellent essay. The sooner people understand that Reaganomics, which Bush implemented in the extreme, is the cause of our current economic failings, the better.


by MainStreet on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 09:06:34 AM EST

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

tho' I have not cried tears of joy - I am so utterly impressed by Obama and his extremely Bold and Progressive politics that I am actually stunned. I told my partner to slap me in the head to see if I'm dreaming!!! It's everything we have all been waiting for. Now if he will just move this boldly with progressive social agendas (ie LBGT issues) - that would bring me to tears of joy!!!


by nikkid on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 10:29:50 AM EST

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

Right on!

The sorry state of the Republican party and the GOP-created massive economic crisis shaking America to her core has given us a window of opportunity to undo almost all of their folly and bring about a fair progressive system in regards to taxes, health care, wages.  Seizing the day and pushing forward with bold progressive initiatives and plans in such short time and with such breath taking speed only works because these visions are entirely populist and are therefore likely to have mass appeal and broad voter approval.

We catered too long to vocal loudmouths and self-proclaimed economic architects and gurus from the right when the key to freeing ourselves from the grip of voodoo Reagonomics always has been to provide fairness to the 90% of Americans who are not partaking in the riches of this country.

Of course, for too long too many were blinded by some of the skill and displayed strong conviction on the part of the trickle-downers, but the shameful results of such tomfoolery have become clear to most, the economic theories that created this mess have now been thoroughly discarded and disproved, opening the door for bold action and strong progressive initiatives.


by devilrays on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 10:57:35 AM EST

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

I agree with NSW.  We need much more taxes on the rich.  90% top rates.  It would be nice if handled incrementally, but will that be done?  Did Clinton ever increase taxes upon the rich, after the first increase, in 1993?  I don't think so.

Also, much as I like the basic trend of Charles Lemos' thought, he is waxing too much over this modest tax increase.  It is not the greatest thing ever, it is more like "the end of the beginning."  As well-and like so many progressives-he is emphasizing minority aspects too much.  He fails to realize-or, prehaps, does not want to realize-that it was concentration upon programs that help only certain people, instead of everybody, that really got this country and it's cities into such a mess.  Add to that the divisive policies pursued by so many progressives, and you have a recipe for disaster.
Finally, what about pro-labor proposals?  That would help inequality a lot more than anti-poverty programs would.  


by demjim on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:01:49 AM EST

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

The money set aside for health care is a tremendous help to labor and all working class Americans.


by Lolis on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:03:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

Just curious, how do you think the country would benefit from a top income tax rate of 90%?


by tpeichel on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:11:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

It was 91% under Eisenhower on incomes over $400,000. LBJ brought that down to 70%.


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by Charles Lemos on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 07:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

OK, the past 50 years we have had lower income tax rates and we have grown to be the powerhouse economy in the world. I'll ask again, how will raising the top rate to 90% help our economy and create jobs?


by tpeichel on Sat Feb 28, 2009 at 12:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That will never happen.... (none / 0)

Hell, I want the tax rates high on the rich, but even more, we need to eliminate the loop-holes they use.

If you put the tax rate at 90%, they will just avoid it by never making huge incomes.

Read "Perfectly Legal" by David Johnston. You will see how the rich game the tax code.

But, to go for something as radical as 90% will give the Republicans AMMO to Scream Socialism, and Sweden, etc...Right now, they seem like they are just obstructionist. If Suddenly something as radical as 90% top marginal rate were to even be floated, you would give them some actual live ammo, instead of the blanks they are shooting at the base right now.

You can't just grab a pendulum and yank it to the other side, you might break the clock...

You need to slow it down, and start it swinging to the other side.

Basic physics, and basic politics as well.


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by WashStateBlue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:36:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That will never happen.... (2.00 / 1)

Actually, Sweden's top income tax rate is now 40%.  They might scream "Sweden from the mid-1980s," though.  :-)


by devilrays on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:49:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Unfortunately, the Republicans are SOOO good (none / 0)

at creating memes, 90% of the public are not going to know that...

It's like the crap about "Do you want a medical system like Canada" to shoot down U health care.

Well, no, I want something better, but in fact, Canadians have it better then us in many cases...


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by WashStateBlue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 12:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

The truth is that you would be hard pressed to find many Canadians who would trade their universal health care system for ours.  On the whole they are very satisfied with the system they have in place.  The same is true for all European nations and all other industrialized countries.  Universal health care is highly popular everywhere it has been implemented.

On a side note, the thing that makes me giddy like nothing else about the upcoming health care bill is that once we implement universal health care, and it looks to be more and more likely to pass, the Republican's goose is cooked for a long time. They know that quite well, which is the reason they have become increasingly shrill and virtually incoherent with their complaining and whining.  They are afraid that all this "big government" will actually be very popular with the American people, because it ends up benefitting them for a change.   For once I agree with them:  Once implemented people will find a lot to like in a universal health care system that covers virtually everyone, and shortly after implementation they would not dream of letting anyone reverse or abolish it. The program would quickly gain untouchable status like Medicaid and Social Security.   That is why the GOP tries so fervently to stop the train from rolling, they try to keep that Pandora in the box, because once let out it will be yet another nail, nay, an entire battery of nails in their collective coffins.  


by devilrays on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 12:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Newt said exactly that... (none / 0)

He is about the only bright bulb left in that crew, it's not like Joe the Plumber is going to lead this crowd out of the wilderness.

At CPAC, Newt was preaching the obstructionist mantra, they can't afford to have Obama succeed, even in the short term, but in the long term, it's as you say, the nails in the coffin of Reaganism.

IF Obama starts down the road and it starts to work, it starts to disolve their entire underlying structure.

BUT, one caveat, and you can already hear in Obama's tone.

This has to be AN EFFECTIVE solution.

People will not mind paying for it, but if it is an overally complex flop like Bush's Medicaid drug package (which, I believe, they kind of wanted to fail anyway...)we hand the Republicans a knife on a silver platter.

Hell, no one said this would be easy!


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by WashStateBlue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 12:39:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

http://cthealth.server101.com/why_doesn' t.htm

Moreover, a poll of the people in the top ten industrialized countries shows that Americans are the least satisfied with their system, that Canadians are the most satisfied, and that all of those other more satisfied peoples enjoy either socialized medicine or national health insurance.
...
At least since the 1940's, massive majorities of the American people (70 to 75%) have voiced their support for a universal health care system, even at the cost of an increase in taxation.


by devilrays on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 12:34:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

The country is ready for a more progressive tax code, but something approaching 90% on the top earners will not happen anytime soon, most likely never.  European countries which had up to 90% top tax rates in place for a while until the late 80s (i.e. UK, Sweden) had seen those top earners set up residence abroad in tax-friendly countries in huge numbers, taking away the entire income tax base and removing huge chunks of wealth from the domestic economy.

Country after country saw themselves forced to revise the top tax code, and in virtually every European nation the top income tax rate is now capped at around 40%.  I suppose the logical idea behind it was that 40% of "real" tax income taken into the public till is better than 90% of "virtual" tax income going elsewhere.  


by devilrays on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:43:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Eactly right (none / 0)

It's viserally satisfying to think we can go back to 1947, but international monetary systems make it too easy for them to game it.

A much better scheme is what I suggest below, a radical change to the capital gains tax system.

This is about WEALTH, not income anyway.

A different game altogether.


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by WashStateBlue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:58:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

Did Clinton ever increase taxes upon the rich, after the first increase, in 1993?

Since Clinton was running surpluses, why would he increase taxes? Taxes are not supposed to be punishment. Sure there were additonal things to get done, but with the $200 billion plus annual surplus Clinton ended up with the last couple years, universal healthcare could have been implemented and still not raise taxes.


by gak on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 01:54:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

It's not the specifics per se that have me excited it is the decision to embark in a different direction altogether. This does mark a turning point but no doubt the battle for fairness will continue.


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by Charles Lemos on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 08:33:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not sure Clinton could even if he wanted to (none / 0)

after 1994, raising taxes on the rich was completely out of the question with Congress.


Keep Yelling, Nobody's Listening -SallyCat
by DTOzone on Sat Feb 28, 2009 at 12:21:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

We had that in 1935-64, and that was the period of "the great compression."  Also, does not such rates involve taxing away the fortunes of the rich and bringing about equality, which is Lemos (supposedly) wants.  It would be a great step in the direction of wiping out both wealth and poverty in favor of a truly middle-income, middle-class society.


by demjim on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:23:10 AM EST

Look, a better solution to this, is change (2.00 / 1)

the capital gains tax structure.

As I said above, the Rich have too many ways to avoid the income tax rates.

This is about WEALTH, not income.

We need an extremely progressive capital gains tax structure.

Right now, big money is encourage to FLIP everything, short term gains, drive up the stock price.

What we need to is to ENCOURAGE long term investment, and discourage flipping.

So, Capital Gains tax should both have a high ceiling (you don't want to punish the little people) but you should have a progressive rate, that if you have HUGE capital gains in year one of an investment, we tax the living CRAP out of it...

Five years less...ten years even less.

That we, we encourage business to REINVEST and grow the networth, instead of gaming the system and using the capital gains as their personal casino.

THE ROOT CAUSE of this meltdown is, everything kept getting flipped, transaction fees at every step, and short term gains were cashed in.

Slow DOWN the ability of the rich to keep short term gaming the economy.

Essentially, TRY to turn them all into Warren Buffet instead of John Thain.


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by WashStateBlue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:44:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look, a better solution to this, is change (none / 0)

Interesting idea, so if a venture capitalist funded a biotech they would get better tax treatment the longer they kept their capital invested in the company.

Short-term capital gains are already taxed much higher than long-term capital gains, how high were you thinking of going on short-term capital gains?


by tpeichel on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 12:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look, a better solution to this, is change (none / 0)

I'm no economist, but I bet you put Roubini and Stiglitz in a room, and let them fight it out for a structure.

I'm sure there would be some other things besides a progressive rate, it would also matter what class of investment it was how progressive you could be....

But, I think VERY steep at first, then gradual, then to make this more palatble, very low down the road, say 5-7 years...you need to be able to go the folks that are going to hate this, the CATO crowd, and have a counter argument.

As you said, investment in basic research needs to be encouraged, flipping CDOs and Credit Default Swaps need to be looked at for what good that does for the economy at large...

The problem will be pushback, too many folks like Summers and Geitner are tied to people who became billionaires NOT so much from salaries, but from buying and selling of assets in a very quick market.


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by WashStateBlue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 12:13:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look, a better solution to this, is change (none / 0)

Great comment.


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by Charles Lemos on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 08:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Return of Fairness in America (none / 0)

The strength of our economy is the ability of our people to innovate. Take away the incentive to innovate by taxing 90% of income and you will fundamentally change our economy.


by tpeichel on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 11:54:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice beginning, but we need to go much further (2.00 / 1)

Great post Charles

I am heartened by most of Obama's budget (though not by his increase in the budget for the military). Changing the tax code and creating universal healthcare will really help poor and middle-class folks.

But eventually we need to go much further. The amount of wealth accumulated by the super rich is obscene. Bill Gates makes more money in a few days from interest on his accumulated wealth than most people make through working hard all their lives. And most of this is blood money: gained from slavery, robber baron exploitation, exploitation of addictions (cigarettes, alcohol, rum running, gambling, prostitution), vicious monopolies (Microsoft), or financial manipulation (subprime loans, payday loans), etc. To rectify this horrendous exploitation, we need something that will actually take these ill-gotten gains away, something like a wealth tax on all family wealth exceeding $5 million and an estate tax rate closer to 90% for wealth above $10 million. And to prevent wealth from being moved to the Cayman Islands or secret Swiss bank accounts, we need strong international enforcement.

Obviously, we're nowhere close to this now, but this is what we need to push for and eventually enact.


by RandomNonviolence on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 12:24:02 PM EST

Can we maybe pick on someone besides Bill? (none / 0)

I know he is an easy and a well known visible target, but (sorry, this the NW speaking) his family is pretty much what you want if someone has to be at the top of the pile.

We can debate the Monopoly thing some other time, but there are PLENTY more eggregious monsters then Bill out there...(BTW, never worked for MS, but have plenty of friends that have...)

For example, search on Bill Gates Sr, and some of the talks he gives about the inheritance tax.

He agrees with you for the most part?

I get your point, but Bill and Melinda are going to give 95% percent of that wealth away...

How about you pick on the Nestle Family, or the Coors or the other UBER-wealth that fund the right wing machine...


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by WashStateBlue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 12:46:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can we maybe pick on someone besides Bill? (none / 0)

I guess we think alike, just saw your post after I made mine.


by tpeichel on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 01:11:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can we maybe pick on someone besides Bill? (none / 0)

I just used Bill as an example of someone with vast wealth (the richest man in the US), much of it ill-gotten. As you say, his father agrees with me (somewhat) that his wealth should be taxed away.

Bill is not the worst example of robber baron. In fact, like Carnegie, he is giving away much of his wealth. That is very commendable. My beef is not with Gates, but with a system that allows him to keep his ill-gotten wealth, in fact, that rewards him for his technology monopoly games.

See my comments below for more.


by RandomNonviolence on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 03:13:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice beginning, but we need to go much further (none / 0)

Yes Bill Gates is wealthy but he brought to market a product that has increased business productivity worldwide. He has shared that wealth by employing countless people and in turn some of those people have left Microsoft and gone on to use their wealth to create even more businesses that have fueled economic growth.

In addition, Bill Gates, has used his foundation to spend hundreds of millions to help people throughout the world. Is he perfect? No, but there certainly a lot more wealthy people that have lied, cheated, and stolen their wealth that you could take a shot at.

Finally, do we really want to create an environment that discourages entrepeurs so the next Bill Gates comes from another country?


by tpeichel on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 01:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gates not worst (none / 0)

Bill Gates is not the worst of the breed by any means. And his giving away much of his wealth is very commendable.

But talk to people who know about the development of the personal computer industry and you will discover that Microsoft did little to actually advance the technology. What they were good at doing was buying or copying good ideas and then doing a great job of marketing/developing monopolies to become the dominant player, enabling them to overcharge for their software. Gates was often quite vicious in his crushing of rivals.

If Bill Gates had never formed Microsoft, the personal computer industry would still have grown and would still have produced the technology we have benefited from. It just would have been done by other people in another way. And it might have resulted in more money being spread to more people (and less being taken out of the pocket of the poor).

We don't have to have multi-billionaires in order to have entrepreneurs. There are lots of people who will work very, very hard and do a very good job for $1 million or $10 million. And those folks are likely to be a lot less vicious and beneficial to society.


by RandomNonviolence on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 01:48:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As I figured, a MicroSoft Denier... (none / 0)

Hell, all my MS buds have switched to Apple, you win by default anyway..

But, your historical revisionism, that SOMEHOW the world of Digital Computers would have different without MS is a speculative fantasy...

You claim it would have been different?

Hell, it might not have happened AT ALL without Bill, IBM might have remained dominant, You might have a WANG on your desk instead of a Dell?

Yes, IBM and Wang, two tremedously socially relevant companys.

And

And, not to hijack this thread but:

Ok, DEFEND THIS STATMENT FOR A START

It just would have been done by other people in another way. And it might have resulted in more money being spread to more people (and less being taken out of the pocket of the poor).

Ok, GIVE ME A candidate for someone that would have spread the wealth more?

Micheal Dell?

Larry Ellison?

John Chambers?

Woz?

Gary Kildall?

Personally, I think ALL of this talk is mudled up, because of the Myriad of technology sins that MS did...

I agree, in fact, most of my buds that left MS agree with the premise that the wheels came off MS right after NT, and since then, their technology sucks....

But, with the exception perhaps of Intel, I have a lot of trouble finding a company that has done MORE for the social good of a region (where I live) and of a wealthy person more dedicated to social good now...

Please, seperate your dislike for MS the Technology Monopolist, and Microsoft as some kind of third world sweat shop that crushed the workers.

They are not the greatest, but I believe the animosity has a lot to do with people disliking Windows, not that Bill is the worst of the worst Corporate pigs...


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by WashStateBlue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 02:07:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, you've mischaracterized my argument (2.00 / 1)

I'm not saying that Bill was more evil than Michael Dell or Larry Ellison (Bill Gates is just the richest of these folks and the name that most people know). I'm arguing against our economic system that rewards people like Dell, Ellison, and Gates who engage in technology monopoly to reap vast rewards for themselves. If we didn't have such a system, then, perhaps the folks who created the CP/M operating system would not have been crushed in by Gates hooking up with IBM and establishing the "IBM compatible" DOS operating system as the standard that everyone had to follow. Perhaps Apple would not have been crushed (and almost put out of business) by the Windows rip-off of the Macintosh interface (which Apple stole from Xerox PARC, which was built on work done by SRI International under government contract).

A different system might have led to more competition, more entrepreneurs, and less domination by the big companies: IBM in the 1950s through 1970s, then Microsoft in the 1980s and 1990s, and now, perhaps Google taking over. I argue it would have been better not to allow the concentration of money in the hands of a few people and then hope that they do something socially beneficial with it. It would have been better to stop the technology monopolies or to have taxed away the ill-gotten gains with income and wealth taxes directed at the rich. And if the government had taxed this money, it might have taxed the poor less and given us all healthcare a long time ago.


by RandomNonviolence on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 03:03:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, we can go down the path of urban legend now (none / 0)

and discuss did Gary Kildall REALLY blow off IBM the legendary day or...It's endless fun to speculate, but there are as many people that contend Gary had all the money he wanted, and he didn't have the drive to make CP/M the dominant OS...

Now, Bill and Ballmer, THOSE GUYS had drive (some would say, manically too much...)

And, many folks don't know, that although Bill and the crew HATED the Netscape guys, Bill always respected Jobs and the Apple crowd, never wanted to drive them into the ground.

And, as you said, Jobs just stoled the WIMP idea from SRI?

Suppose you have read "Dealers of Lightening" and "Fumbling the Future" about Zerox-PARC?

Great stuff, love the stories of the times.

Funny you mentioned Google, because right now, if you want a monster sucking the life out of the tech land, it is them.  Right now, I have good friend whos partner is a big research scientest there, and it sounds like the heyday of MS?

70 Hours work weeks, death marches, TONS of money and stock...

Hell, have the folks at MS these days have Google envy. Talk about buying up the world.

Oh well, Capitalism IS by defination a balls out competition.

But, though I see what you are talking about, I can't see any idealized solution to what you are suggesting, trying to balance the tendecies of really smart people running companies to try to blast the competition?

Really, even my favorite of the Tech companies, Intel, played MASSIVE hard ball with the competition....that are the rules of the game.

So, I guess I don't know HOW you distribute the fairness inside the business sector, to me, you do what Obama is trying to, balance it with fairness in Government.

Even if Business favors the rich, Goverment should try and balance, and help the rest of us?

So, I will again defend these tech companies a bit, I mean, MS is a pretty forwarded thinking crew, they have always supported partner rights for example, it was always known here in Seattle that MS was very gay friendly-it was a meritocracy, if you could do the work, they could care less who you slept with....

And, though I complain about the current Paul Allen blight down by Lake Union, we really have benefited from a bunch of MicroSoft wealth doing good things for the community.

I guess you pick your poison, and I have always said, if we have to pick the two wealthiest guys in the country, we could have done a lot worse then Warren Buffet and Bill Gates.


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by WashStateBlue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 04:39:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But the point is... (none / 0)

I haven't read much about the development of the personal computer, but I met many of the people who were in the Home Brew Computer Society (where Wozniak first introduced his Apple I computer), I had a housemate who helped develop SmallTalk at Xerxo PARC on a $100,000 Altos computer, another housemate who worked on the Lisa for Apple, and a friend who suggested the idea of the MultiFinder to Apple. And I heard Doug Engelbart talk about developing the mouse, hypertext, graphical user interfaces, and ARPAnet (precursor to the Internet) at SRI in the 1960s and 1970s.

So way back when I heard first-hand much of the gossip of how things developed.

As far as benefits from folks like this: I attended Stanford University which was blessed with the ill-gotten wealth of robber baron Leland Stanford and I now live in Cleveland which has been very blessed by John D. Rockefeller and his fellow robber barons in the 1910s and 20s. Our MetroPark system and half the government and most of the cultural buildings in town are gifts from them.

But the point is not that these guys are personally nasty or not and it is not that we shouldn't have entrepreneurs or that we should not reward our entrepreneurs somewhat. It's that we shouldn't reward people for being at the right place at the right time or for being vicious monopolists or for being nasty robber barons. We shouldn't reward them with multi-billions of dollars which they can use or misuse at their own discretion. And we shouldn't let them pass their ill-gotten gains on to their children who are not entrepreneurs and did nothing for the money. That is what wealth and estate taxes are all about -- to prevent the ill-gotten gains of capitalism to be siphoned off by government for socially beneficial purposes. And hopefully, to discourage a little of that vicious capitalism which is not really very useful to society.


by RandomNonviolence on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 06:43:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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