UPDATE: Afghanistan Decision Time

I've read the speculation about the planned troop increase that Obama is supposedly going to propose, but who knows who is telling that an increase is going to happen on the order of 20-80,000 more troops in Afghanistan.

I sure hope not. What a disaster this is becoming.

I came across The Afghan Trap by Saul Landau today, and what's remarkable about this article is how easily is shoots down all the nonsensical ideas for why we are warring in Afghanistan.

The argument for more troops because of its destability:

President Obama can leave, reduce, maintain or increase troop strength. Escalation proponents omit Bush's original mission: to get bin Laden. Then he talked himself into war in Iraq and forgot bin Laden.

Max Boot banged war drums then. Now he wants more war in Afghanistan. Boot wants to escalate because "Afghanistan's corruption problem, like its security problem, can be best addressed by additional troops." Marines bayoneting corruption in Kabul?

"Only by sending more personnel, military and civilian," he concludes, "can President Obama improve the Afghan government's performance, reverse the Taliban's gains and prevent Al Qaeda's allies from regaining the ground they lost after 9/11." (NY Times, Oct. 21, 2009) Wow! How about using the Air Force to fight global warming?

The rationale that we are there to defeat  al-Qaida:
Boot omits the original Bush myths justifying invading Afghanistan. The Taliban government did house al-Qaida's training camps, as Bush claimed, and Al-Qaida operatives perpetrated the 9/11 deeds. But these facts did not relate to the actual 9/11 deeds. Bush's impulse to make war in Afghanistan quickly turned to actual zeal in March 2003. Iraq became his focus of the terror war. Most Tallies had escaped to the safety of neighboring Pakistan - a loyal U.S. ally.

The 9/11 fanatics, however, conspired in apartments in Germany and used U.S. flight schools to learn how to steer large aircraft into larger buildings. Box cutters cut throats as well as cardboard. Fifteen of the 19 terrorists were Saudis; no Afghanis. Jihadists later hit Spain, France and England, their countries of residence. The July 7, 2005, bombers of the British public transportation system learned their "skills" on the web, not in Afghan training camps.

By 2009, no more that 100 suicidal jihadists remained in Afghanistan, according to National Security Advisor General Jim Jones. "As we disrupt [al-Qa'ida], they will seek other safe havens," explained CIA Chief Leon Panetta. "Somalia and Yemen are potential al-Qa'ida bases in the future." Imagine the headlines: "U.S. troops to Somalia and Yemen; deficit mushrooms."

Boot and other escalation advocates equate Afghan Taliban fighters with al-Qaida. A U.S. intelligence study, however, concluded that 90 per cent of the Taliban belong to "a tribal insurgency." "Their opposition derives from the U.S. `as an occupying power'," wrote Bryan Bender. According tothe intelligence report, the Afghan Tallies have no cross-border ambitions. (Boston Globe October 9, 2009)

And the idea that the US military is going to be be nation-building:
Those proposing escalation on human rights grounds have invented their own Afghanistan. In the 1980s, the CIA paid warlords to fight the Soviets - because they represented Western culture. Some of these brutes now support President Karzai, who turned election fraud into comic opera. Karzai's brother, a suspected narcotrafficker, is reported to be on the CIA payroll (NY Times, Oct 28). Do we commit to such "democratic" allies in Kabul?

More humanitarian aid -- schools and hospitals -- at a time when the U.S. can't take care of its own needs? Such incongruities inspired Nick Meo: "trying to defeat al-Qa'ida with hundreds of thousands of occupying troops and Predator jets is like trying to treat cancer with a blowtorch." (Telegraph, Oct. 18, 2009)

After eight years of war, bin Laden remains free. Drones have killed supposed chiefs and number twos along with countless innocents. Their deaths dramatize the obvious downside of occupying armies.

Since 1945, the U.S. armed forces have failed to prevail in conflicts where locals resist.

The price tag is $4 billion a month for our troops being in Afghanistan. And toward what end or what timeline (Friedman units it "a 20-year project at best")!?!?



Display:


Re: UPDATE: Afghanistan Decision Time (none / 0)

I am struck how Rep. Ike Skelton is so concerned about the deficit that he can't bring himself to provide 46 million Americans with healthcare but his concerns for adding to deficit are AWOL when it comes to endless wars.


Follow me on Twitter.
by Charles Lemos on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 09:28:39 PM EST

Re: UPDATE: Afghanistan Decision Time (none / 0)

Yea, me too. It shows where there priorities are.

That excuse, and the bs about how a gov't run healthcare system is the worst thing possible, without giving it a thought that they themselves use one quite well, thanks to taxpayers.

What a messed up gov't we have.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 10:17:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well... (none / 0)

How do we leave...if that is what your propose we do ?


by Ravi Verma on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 09:42:18 PM EST

Re: Well... (none / 0)

You are asking me the procedures for how a military leaves its occupying posts? Isn't that obvious?


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 10:19:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No... (none / 0)

I was asking you a different question.

How do we leave politically ?  How does Obama, specifically, leave politically...after making the defeat of AlQuaeda, and a renewed focus on Afghanistan the centre piece of his campaign ?


by Ravi Verma on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 10:24:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No... (none / 0)

al-Qaida isn't there any longer, and as he points out, that base wasn't used for 9/11. The Taliban, we are going to fight that decades?

"the center piece of his campaign"

Are you joking?


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 10:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Okay (none / 0)

So maybe it wasnt the centerpiece, but it was a very important part of his foreign policy credentials...

He had good judgement on Afghanistan, which was evidenced by his opposition to the Iraq war, and he was going to use that good judgement to focus on Afghanistan.  That was a very big argument, specially during the primary...but also during the general.

ANd so, yes...he cannot just pull out of Afghanistan without paying some price for it politically.  I also understand that the polls are turning against the mission, so the price may be small...but it will be a price.

I am in general support of your broader thesis that the US mission in Afghanistan is not doing too well, and needs to be rethunk.  If the US is going to stay, then I would like to see a shifting of focus... absent that, I would rather see a pullout than the current drift.

However, one cannot just wish for something without acknowledging the price.

You can make the argument that the 9-11 hijackers were trained in Europe, and al Quaeda isnt there anymore.  Those are all valid points.  I am also sure that those arguments will quickly get lost.


by Ravi Verma on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 10:50:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay (none / 0)

The price will be huge not small. The Repubs have gone silent on 9/11 recently, probably shamed by their overuse of it for Iraq (unlikely, possible it's just a fluke), but if Obama withdraws with A'stan they'll trot it out again. Names of victims and all.

And if someone brings up the point that AQ isn't in A'stan, but in Pakistan, the calls will be for an invasion of Pakistan next.

And don't forget our allies - lots of countries have troops in A'stan. And unlike Iraq only very few are pulling out.


by vecky on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 02:14:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay (none / 0)

Politically, I believe the deeper price will be paid if we grow our ME political presence. That's a roadmap to shattering the progressive alliance that elected Obama.

You have to remember that Obama was elected in the primary under a anti-war premise. He was right about not going into Iraq. Yea, he gave off tough language on Afghanistan, but that's what gets quickly lost.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 09:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

On al Qaeda and the Significance of Afghanistan (none / 0)

From testimony before the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee:


If the Taliban did come back to power in Afghanistan, of course they would give safe haven to al Qaeda. Despite all the pressures military and otherwise exerted on them over the past decade, giving safe haven to al Qaeda has been at the heart of the Taliban project; first in the five years before 9/11 when they ran Afghanistan, and since then in the areas of Pakistan's tribal regions that they now control. Taliban leader Mullah Omar was prepared to lose everything on the point of principle that he would not give up Osama bin Laden after the 9/11 attacks. And he did lose everything: after 9/11, the Taliban were swiftly removed from power by U.S. forces. This does not suggest a talent for realpolitik. Foreign policy "realists" often take the view that everyone else is also a realistic and rational as they are, but history does not provide much comfort in this matter.

In a speech in August, President Obama laid out the rationale for stepping up the fight in Afghanistan: "If left unchecked, the Taliban insurgency will mean an even larger safe haven from which al Qaeda would plot to kill more Americans. So this is not only a war worth fighting. This is fundamental to the defense of our people." Obama's `Af-Pak' plan is, in essence, a counter-sanctuary strategy that denies safe havens to the Taliban and al Qaeda, with the overriding goal of making America and its allies safer.

This is a sound policy. If U.S. forces were not in Afghanistan, the Taliban, with its al Qaeda allies in tow, would seize control of the country's south and east and might even take it over entirely. A senior Afghan politician told me that the Taliban would be in Kabul within 24 hours without the presence of international forces. This is not because the Taliban is so strong; generous estimates suggest it numbers no more than 20,000 fighters. It is because the Afghan government and the 90,000-man Afghan army are still so weak.

Peter Bergen - Confronting al Qaeda: Understanding the Threat in Afghanistan and Beyond New America Foundation 7 Oct 09

This notion that since al Qaeda attacked New York from a cell in Hamburg that Afghanistan and Pakistan are not central to their operations or objectives strikes me as fallacious.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 02:19:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree (none / 0)

The Taliban (or whoever that would fill the vacuum in the event of the collapse of the central government in Afghanistan and a US pullout) would be a breeding ground for all kinds of undesirable elements.  They would likely try to take over the nuclear assets in Pakistan as well.

That is a strong argument for staying put and fixing the problem.

At the same time, one must also have a realistic plan for solving the problem, beyond an admonition that leaving would result in a disaster.


by Ravi Verma on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 12:35:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree (none / 0)

So, which disaster would you rather have?  Staying at an unsustainable cost, and eventually having to bail, or leaving now?


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 01:20:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Honestly.. (none / 0)

I don't know.  

Clearly, if the choices are as you presented, then the obvious choice is to leave now.  If, OTOH, the choices can be expanded to include one that involves staying and fixing the problem, then one should stay.  

I am not sure the latter can be done... but I would like to hear someone propose a realistic plan (and both the Biden plan and the McCrystal leave me unimpressed).

A 2nd angle to it is identifying the underlying problem ~ some people claim (with solid arguments and some facts backing it up) that the presence of foreign troops is an underlying problem.  If that is the case, then one should leave right away (as I recall, Shaun believed in this argument wrt Iraq).  The common rationale for this is that the mere presence of troops inflames the local population.  A 2nd angle is that more troops = more closed borders, which results in reduced trade and a higher driving force for strife.

All in all, I would really like to have someone propose a realistic plan for success.  Absent that, I would rather see a pullout.


by Ravi Verma on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 01:34:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Honestly.. (none / 0)

8 years going, if there were one, it would have come forth by now. I don't see anything but slog debt and losses ahead with the choices being offered.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 02:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Honestly.. (none / 0)

You may be right.  But I would like to wait and hear from the C-in-C himself.


by Ravi Verma on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 02:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree (none / 0)

It seems to me that if 'leaving now' is clearly a disaster then any other possible outcome must be considered and probably explored.  A Commander-in-Chief confronted with certain disaster on the one hand and a potential, and arguably more costly, disaster on the other doesn't have a lot to choose from, does he?


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 05:15:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE: Afghanistan Decision Time (none / 0)

As uncomfortable as this is to support I'm not sure that the commitment of additional US troops is a mistake, at least in the short term.  We tend to look at the confict in Afghanistan through the prism of the Soviet experience there, if not that of the British in the 19th century, and yet there are a number of indications that economically, socially and politically the frame of reference has shifted in the broader region, if not in the Taliban sanctuaries we hear so much about, and seemingly will carry Afghanistan relentlessly along with them.  We need to look at the region from that perspective.

The whole notion of an economic miracle for South Asia is predicated on a mutual prosperity of India and Pakistan.  Any advances by the former at the expense of the latter will merely exacerbate tensions and mistrust.  Afghanistan forms a symbiotic relationship with Pakistan in many respects.  For the US to abandon its presence in Afghanistan bodes ill for any advantage we may have won, by accident or design, in Pakistan over the past year.  And the advantages are potentially transforming, if nascent.

We must think carefully about this, with our globalist hats on, and not merely respond with reflexive progressive antipathy to conflict, military power projected overseas and domestic policy considerations such as lost causes due to cost.  This is a nexus, a turning point, and my instinct is to agree with the Obama administration that weighty considerations are due.  I am inclined to believe that the Obama administration's decision will be to give the lion's share of the additional resources McChrystal has requested, at least two or three brigades and perhaps more, but for a finite period of time.

The weakest link in the chain of outcomes, clearly, is the disreputable civilian government with which we must engage in this project.  The outcomes of the election and its aftermath have been disappointing and problematic.  This is the terrain the Obama administration must negotiate and it will not be easy.  But given the range of possible outcomes, which including Pakistan's security are onerous, it seems to me there is little merit in exercising an expedient exit strategy precipitously.  And many dangers.

It seems to me the Obama administration has a policy of looking for the long term impacts of its decisions instead of short term gains.  They even seem willing to take a bit of heat to shepherd their objectives through the gamut of media criticism and the dire prognostications of the punditry.  I earnestly hope that is true in this case as it appears to be one of the most sobering choices which lies before us, blood and treasure notwithstanding.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 10:45:45 PM EST

I have great respect for your opinions.. (none / 0)

you may remember me as LotusBloom, we had some stimulating exchanges (if not, that is quite allright too.. I am sure you have many memorable exchanges)

I am writing to quibble about some of your underlying assumptions:

(a) An economic miracle in S. Asia can occur without it being mutual between India and Pakistan.  India is a large enough internal market that it does not "need" good relations (and thus trade) with Pakistan.  Unfortunately, Pakistan and Afghanistan need trade a lot more.

(b) After 8+ yrs of conflict, the trade routes have barely been dusted off.  Afghan trade with India (which used to be a big market for Afghan goods before borders took hold) has been negligible.  Afghan trade with Pakistan is now confined to guns and drugs.  And Afghan trade with Iran is mostly illicit gasoline.  Poppy remains the only source of income for most Afghans.  Under the circumstances, the Karzai government is the logical outcome and not the "weaklink".

Any plan for Afghanistan that has a realistic chance of success must include a plan for opening up the Silk roads, so that the people have a real alternative.  Unfortunately, I dont think that is being considered.


by Ravi Verma on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 11:03:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have great respect for your opinions.. (none / 0)

Certainly I remember our previous discussions, thanks for identifying yourself in this virtual landscape.  Interesting to note the laborious history of the Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline in this context, and India's relatively recent abandonment of this project.  Yet the pipeline goes ahead.  A 'silk road' of the 21st century.

Your points about the trade among Afghanistan, Pakistan and India being hindered by security issues and local politics is precisely the point I am making.  Absent the Taliban and the Kashmiri insurrectionists and the prosperity of all concerned would be enhanced.  We don't see this because for one reason or another these trade routes have been interdicted for decades.  And yet they thrive as illicit and unacknowledged conduits.  Bottom line is the insurgent clients of both democracies are costing them lakhs of lakhs of rupees in revenue.  It is clearly unsustainable for Pakistan, as you point out, while India is not so discomfited.  But in the long run Indians must realise that a fragile and failing Pakistan is among their worst perils.

From where I sit the resolution of Kashmir is the real issue in the region, the Taliban in Afghanistan is almost a sideshow.  Pakistan's ambivalence toward Islamic guerilla insurgencies, regarding which they are now having to reckon the 'butcher's bill,' would hardly be credible without understanding their focus almost exclusively on the conflict with India.

Should the US try and resolve this confict?  Of course and no.  In the short term it is a bridge too far.  But any policy of the US in South Asia which is not part of a larger vision of a brokered negotiated peace between India and Pakistan, resolving all of the outstanding issues of 1947, is probably misguided.  And any policy which ignores it is doomed to failure.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 01:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Regarding Kashmir (none / 0)

A common viewpoint, which you seem to agree with, is that a resolution of the Kashmir conflict (and other miscellaneous conflicts) would enable peace and prosperity in the region.  

Respectfully, I would urge you to think this through some more.  Kashmir, in my opinion, is just a symptom of the problem.  Even if it could be "solved" (by which, it is generally meant that Kashmir be handed over to Pakistan), it would not change the fundamental India-Pakistan dynamics.  For instance, the need to carve out a Pakistan from within India was felt before Kashmir even became an issue.  All those millions that died during partition ~ all that was before Kashmir became an issue.

In my opinion, a solution to Kashmir can only be found once the fundamental issues have been addressed (by which time, the problem would become immaterial anyways).  Any any sane person would agree, upon a moments reflection, that the only real solution is to make the borders irrelevant.

I think most people.. at least most sane people...in INdia realize that an unstable Pakistan would be a nightmare for them.  At the same time, one is helpless to prevent that.  One cannot simply hand Kashmir to them, in the hopes that this would prevent collective suicide.


by Ravi Verma on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 01:29:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Regarding Kashmir (none / 0)

I didn't suggest that Kashmir be 'handed over' to Pakistan.  As you point out is an unresolved issue, not a forgone conclusion.  And not an easy one, to be sure.

Having said that, however, I don't see that there is a deeper enmity between Pakistan and India which an equitable settlement, a relaxation of military tension and a few good years of mutually beneficial trade couldn't resolve.

You seem to accept that an unstable Pakistan is not in India's best interest.  Perhaps a stable and prosperous Pakistan would be a benefit.  Without going into the pre-partition history, with which I am passably familiar, or even the countless mutual injuries and outrages which remain unresolved since, it seems to me that it is the interests of both nations to move on and leave their respective fundamentalist idealogues behind.  Surely India must consider her conflict with Pakistan as a restriction on her economic development, a burden on her revenues and a threat to her citizens.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 01:54:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Regarding Kashmir (none / 0)

That is true, India would prefer a stable and prosperous Pakistan to one in which militants might possibly get their hands on nukes. However India also can't forget the real (or imagined) terrorist attacks launched on them based from Pakistan. While the actual attacks such as the Mumbia Killings last year are bad enough, even purely domestic Islamic violence are linked to Pakistan in some way for domestic consumption. Such attacks demand a 'tough' line with Pakistan.

Pakistan in it's turn can't take too tough a line with militants because that would be seen as doing India's bidding. Even attacking militants which are a threat to Pakistan is tough enough as it's generally labeled 'doing America's bidding'. Demonizing India in Pakistan has gone for so long that cracking down on cross-border militants is not something the Pakistani authorities want to push too hard on.


by vecky on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 02:25:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Regarding Kashmir (none / 0)

It's worse than that.  The 'man in the street' in Pakistan has difficulty believing that the recent horrific suicide attacks around the country are not the work of some external agency intent on subverting their sovereignty.

And sure, they also believe that India is arming the Balochs and inciting them to insurrection, but are we so confident that they aren't?  In the wake of the Mumbai attacks, and after numerous false starts and much posturing, the heads of the respective intelligence branches exchanged information about the attack.  Whether this was ceremonial or substantive it is hard to discern but this is the kind of thing which needs to be given more oxygen.  I don't think the Pakistani leadership was thrilled over Mumbai, frankly, whomever plotted and trained the perpetrators.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 02:40:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The deeper problem.. (none / 0)

is that the underlying assumptions of state (a poor choice of words to describe what I want to describe, but that is the best I can do) for the two states are radically opposed to each other.

India was formed as a secular nation with equal rights for all and special protections for minorities.  Pakistan was formed under the assumption that minorities (specifically the Muslims) would always be subjugated, and no secular nation is possible.  

Only one of these assumptions is true.  They cannot both be true.

It is true (and ironic) that the father of Pakistan was a secular person himself, and it was probably his intention to create a secular Pakistan with a Muslim majority.  He was quickly pushed aside (naturally!).  Since then, Pakistan has only reverted backwards...all the way to the 11th century.  

Under the circumstances, one can only hope to survive without a major disaster...one cannot look for a solution.


by Ravi Verma on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 12:30:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The deeper problem.. (none / 0)

I think within this notion that Pakistan is a 'failed' state lies the seed of defeat.  If one thing is clear regarding the chequered history of Pakistan it is that it has been the target of manipulation and covert alliances on the part of external powers for whom the virtues of democracy and civilian leadership were incidental or even counterproductive.

Throughout the Cold War and beyond the Pakistani military and intelligence establishment was a willing participant in geopolitical maneuvering which empowered the organs of state security and lined their pockets.  It is arguable that Pakistan has rarely had the opportunity to develop the kind of democratic, civilian-led stability that India enjoys.

What can you say about a nuclear capable state that has recently arrested fifty-seven air force officers on charges of collusion with terrorists?  It's definitely a problem.  On the other hand it seems clear to me from the recent targeted attacks on the Pakistani military and intelligence establishment, including the assassination of specific general officers who were involved in the planning of the Waziristan operation, that the long-standing alliance between the Pakistani military and militant Islamists is 'off.'  This has always been among the more intractable problems in dealing with the Pakistani state, for India and the US as well.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 05:00:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The deeper problem.. (none / 0)

I do not subscribe to the "Pakistan is a failed state" notion.  That is far too simplistic a description, and somewhat inaccurate.  

I do believe that Pakistan is an artificial state without any positive basis for it's existence ~ by which I mean that the people of Pakistan have not reached a collective agreement on what constitutes Pakistan.  You may argue that the people were never given this opportunity because of external influences, but that misses the point.  Such opportunities are created from within, often in the face of external influences.

And my belief is that, absent this definition, Pakistan will meander along from one disaster to another.  My recollection is that you are familiar with Urdu ~ Quayamat se Quayamat Tak.  


by Ravi Verma on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 07:02:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

From One Calamity to the Next (2.00 / 1)

I'm guessing, in that event, we actually agree about a lot.  There's no question that Pakistan is still struggling with 'a collective agreement on what constitutes Pakistan,' and that absent this definition Pakistan is a problematic state.

I'm suggesting, as I described elsewhere in this thread, that there are reasons to be hopeful this process is now underway with a civilian leadership, however fragile, the reappointment of Chaudhry and a military which seems willing to get on with asserting the 'writ of law' of the government with the majority support of the general population.

Better late than never, the 'day of judgement' is upon them, it seems.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 07:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hope (2.00 / 1)

I certainly hope you are right.  However, I have had my heart broken many times... so I am not holding my breath.  

In any case, it appears that Zardari is on his way out.  Pity that, kinda ironic that after 60 yrs, Mr 10% is the best leader they have ever had.  


by Ravi Verma on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 08:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hope (none / 0)

The notorious National Reconciliation Ordinance is causing understandable ructions in the Pakistani government and Zardari is vulnerable if it is repealed.  It's kind of a lose-lose for Zardari as the public loathes the legislation and the chief justice has ruled that unless it is upheld in parliament by 30 November it is null and void, exposing Zardari to criminal prosecution for past crimes.

This may be a crisis, of sorts, but it is all being handled with what passes for due process in Pakistan and within the 'writ of the law.'  Ironically it is the suspension of this measure which precipitated Chief Justice Chaudhry's dismissal almost exactly two years ago.  And Sharif is waiting patiently, staying well out of the fray but in front of the public.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 09:54:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have a reading recommendation (2.00 / 1)

A set of lectures by Allama Iqbal... one of the foremost thinkers behind Pakistan (and ironically, the author of one of the most cherished songs in India)

It is called the

The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam

and can be read over here:

http://www.allamaiqbal.com/

I am myself digesting it over again.  It is interesting in light of this perspective from the Dawn blog

http://blog.dawn.com/2009/11/09/the-drea m-of-reality/

I would love to compare notes and thoughts with you on it, if you have the time (but I am kinda slow on anything that does not involve equations, so it will be a while before I finish it).


by Ravi Verma on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 11:34:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have a reading recommendation (2.00 / 1)

OK, I will.  I noticed that on Dawn this morning.  The News had a story on Dr Allama Muhammad Iqbal as well, apparently Monday was his 132nd birthday.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 11:42:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE: Afghanistan Decision Time (2.00 / 2)

Shaun,

Pakistan is a state whose elite has a mentality of a feudal lord. Pakistan is not India. Hell, it is not even Bangladesh. Name a Pakistani export other than people. The Bhuttos and the Sharifs run the country as if it were their estates.

India's advance has not come at the expense of Pakistan. Pakistan's failure is solely the responsibility of its elites.

The Afghan problem is no doubt complex. But more troops is precisely the wrong tactic. It is the presence of additional troops that is fueling the insurgency.

Here's one view but there are others:

Russia's ambassador to Afghanistan has some advice for top NATO commanders fighting the Taliban based on the Soviet Union's bitter experience battling Islamist insurgents here in the 1980s: Don't bring more troops.

"The more troops you bring the more troubles you will have here," Zamir Kabulov, a blunt-spoken veteran diplomat, told The Associated Press in an interview.

In 2002, he noted, there were roughly 5,000 U.S. soldiers fighting in Afghanistan and the Taliban controlled just a small corner of the country's southeast.

"Now we have Taliban fighting in the peaceful Kunduz and Baghlan (provinces) with your (NATO's) 100,000 troops," he said this week, sitting on a couch in the Russian Embassy in Kabul. "And if this trend is the rule, if you bring here 200,000 soldiers, all of Afghanistan will be under the Taliban."

Kabulov served as a Soviet diplomat in Afghanistan from 1983 to 1987, during the height of the Kremlin's 10-year Afghan war, when Soviet troop levels peaked at 140,000.

The Soviet war here, which is estimated to have cost the lives of 14,500 Soviet soldiers and hundreds of thousands of Afghans, ended in 1989 in a humiliating withdrawal.

Kabulov has little sympathy for the U.S. or NATO. He said the U.S. and its allies are competing with Russia for influence in the energy-rich region.

But the 55-year-old envoy speaks from experience, and NATO leaders have sought his advice.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the new top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, asked Kabulov a number of "precise" questions about the Soviet war at a diplomatic function last month, the Russian envoy said.

McChrystal is supervising the expansion of U.S. combat forces to 68,000 and is likely to soon request thousands of more troops. Forty-one other NATO countries have another 35,000 troops here.

Air Force Lt. Col. Tadd Sholtis, a public affairs officer assigned to the NATO commander's staff, said: "Gen. McChrystal is a voracious student of Afghan history and welcomes any opportunity to learn from people with experience in Afghanistan or perspectives on our situation here. That certainly includes the Russians."

While Kabulov called raising troop levels a mistake, he said he approved of McChrystal's overall strategy, which includes holding and clearing Taliban areas, training more Afghan security forces and better-coordinated intelligence efforts.

But he said the NATO commander faces daunting challenges.

"Gen. McChrystal is trying to do his best to make this mission a success and to reduce the number of casualties of his soldiers, which is very noble and normal," Kabulov said. "But I'm afraid at this stage it will be very difficult for him to change the direction" of the war.

The Soviet war here was by most accounts a brutal one, with Soviet forces mounting indiscriminate attacks on civilians. But in Kabulov's view, the war effort was successful overall, though crippled in the end by the decline and fall of the Soviet Union.

The U.S. and NATO, he said, made the same fundamental mistake the Kremlin made after its December 1979 invasion, when Soviet special forces killed President Hafizullah Amin and Moscow replaced Amin's Communist regime with another judged more loyal.

"We should have left Afghanistan as soon as possible after the job had been done," Kabulov said. "It should not have taken more than six months. Same as you. You came and you stayed. And all the problems have started."

The other point, I think important to remember is that both Afghanistan and Pakistan are artificial states. Pakistanis may rally around a cricket team now and then but there is really little else to hold them together. The conflict in Afghanistan is increasingly a Pasthun one. We have a Pasthun nationalism problem that few outside academia seem to talk about. You are seeing a convergence of an Af-Pak problem because Pasthuns on both sides of a border that may exist in Western maps but not in Pashtun minds are uniting in opposition to control from either Kabul or Islamabad. The Taliban has become a vehicle for Pastun nationalism but it is being misread as an Islamist one. It clearly has Islamist overtones but the Pashtun character of the conflict is there if you look.


Follow me on Twitter.
by Charles Lemos on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 11:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have to mojo this simply.. (none / 0)

for the cricket reference.

And yes, I agree with the Bangladesh reference...Bangladesh is much mroe of a nation than is Pakistan.  The nation is defined by a shared culture and language (and religion, too).

Pakistan is not a natural nation... and neither is Afghanistan.  That does not mean it cannot be one ~ but that requires some nationbuilding from within, where everyone (including the Sindhis and the Baloch) is given a stake.  Currently, the only stakeholders are the Punjabis and Mohajirs that are pissed off at India.


by Ravi Verma on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 01:09:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE: Afghanistan Decision Time (none / 0)

Yeah, it's a tough call, no doubt about it.  But I think we need to careful about what prism we see this issue through.  It's kinda' like the five blind men and the elephant, you know?  One feels his flank and thinks it is a wall, one feels his tail and thinks it is a rope and so forth.

Sure, our presence there is part of the problem.  And so is the warlordism of the ever-changing cast of poojabs from whom we seek to wring some local political leverage.  And the 'coalition' is fragile and eroding, not to mention our own will to make good on our emphatically stated intentions in the wake of September 2001.  But the stakes are literally enormous.  I cannot overstate this point.  If there was one arena overseas in which we could err so grievously it would impact our children's lives this would have to be it.

I have been diligently reading the punditry on this issue over the last few months and the range of opinion is all over the dial, even among foreign policy and military professionals.  There is no lack of short-sighted, superficial, polemic idiocy on the subject as well.  It seems no surprise the Obama administration is conflicted on selecting a specific strategy.  If one thing is clear it is that ambivalence is failure.

To put it simply we dare not go but are unwilling or unable to stay with the kind of resource that guarantees success, assuming one could foresee a clearly defined strategy which would achieve even our most limited sustainable objectives.  But that doesn't mean such a strategy doesn't exist, we just haven't divined or executed it yet.

The increasingly fickle and self-absorbed public opinion domestically is not a big help, especially at this juncture.  One thing seems clear to me, if we bail now we are in for a world of hurt.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 01:40:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE: Afghanistan Decision Time (2.00 / 1)

I appreciate your globalist worldview, but I have to disagree on what decisions "a world of hurt" would result from. Its the current path that results in the most damaging (physically, financially, ethically, long-term) consequences.

So what will happen if al Qaeda reestablishes a presence in Afghanistan? I fail to see how their geographic location (they are in Pak now) matters.

You can call Mearsheimer defeatist, but point out where he's wrong.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/node/68820? print=yes&hidecomments=yes&page= full


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 09:08:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE: Afghanistan Decision Time (none / 0)

The crux of Mearsheimer's argument, it seems to me, is as follows:


The Republicans and General McChrystal claim that it is absolutely necessary to win the war in Afghanistan for the simple reason that a Taliban victory will allow al Qaeda to re-establish a sanctuary in Afghanistan. And we all know what happened the last time Osama bin Laden was free to scheme and plot against the United States from Afghanistan: September 11. The fatal flaw in this argument is that al Qaeda has a sanctuary next door in Pakistan from which it has been operating since it was driven out of Afghanistan in Dec. 2001. It does not need a sanctuary in Afghanistan.

[...]

But what if the Pakistani army eliminates al Qaeda's sanctuary in western Pakistan? Isn't its current offensive in South Waziristan a major step toward that end? Unfortunately, no. Pakistan has no intention of rolling up al Qaeda, in good part because it does not have the capability to police those areas where the terrorists are hiding.  The offensive in South Waziristan is not even aimed at the Afghan Taliban, much less at al Qaeda. This means that al Qaeda will have a sanctuary in Pakistan no matter what happens in Afghanistan, which means that the American military cannot win a meaningful victory there.

[...]

The United States should accept defeat and immediately begin to withdraw its forces from Afghanistan.

John J Mearsheimer Hollow Victory Foreign Policy 2 Nov 09

Two years ago this argument would have been arguably sound, ironically, just around the time Obama was running on the 'good' war.  But since then there has been a sea change in Pakistan regarding their ambivalence toward the Pashtun militants operating from the FATA and NWFP.  I don't see the contemporary evidence for Mearsheimer's assertion that Pakistan has 'no intention of rolling up al Qaeda.'  Things have changed.  The constitutional crisis surrounding the dismissal of Supreme Justice Chaudhry, Bhutto's assassination and Musharraf's resignation, not to mention the horrific acts of indiscriminate domestic terrorism only recently, have had a significant impact on public opinion, the political framework and the aims, operations and allegiences of the Pakistani state.  With the rise of domestic terrorist attacks and the concerns about a spreading Pashtun insurgency, dismantling the al Qaeda network in Pakistan strikes me as a matter of survival for the ruling elites we all acknowledge are running the show there.

The recent operation in South Waziristan, which Mearsheimer dismisses, does involve the kind of tacit alliances with Taliban groups which have been problematic in the past:


In the time-honored tradition of the mercurial relationships in the tribal areas, the military has sealed alliances with two Taliban commanders of the Waziri tribe, winning deals that they would not attack the army on their southern and eastern flanks.

The two Waziri commanders, Maulvi Nazir and Hafiz Gul Bahadar, control territory that surrounds the lands that are home to the rival Mehsuds and that form the Taliban stronghold where the army has begun its push.

It is an expediency that may serve the Pakistani Army, but that could work against American forces in Afghanistan. Both Mr. Nazir and Mr. Bahadar are allied with Sirajuddin Haqqani, who along with his father, Jalaluddin, runs a good part of the insurgency battling American and NATO forces over the border in Afghanistan.

Jane Perlez - Pakistan Finds Local Allies Against Ferocious Foe NYT 20 Oct 09

However it doesn't follow to me that 'this means that al Qaeda will have a sanctuary in Pakistan no matter what happens in Afghanistan' as Mearsheimer asserts.  It just means it will take a little more time.  The Pakistani military were equally concerned that as their Rah-i-Nijat offensive was beginning US forces apparently pulled back from border outposts on the Afghanistan frontier.  This is why I think this whole issue needs to be carefully considered, there is a lot of conflicting evidence and a subtly changing political landscape in the region.

I totally agree with Mearsheimer on one point, however, that the Afghanistan and Pakistan regions must be dealt with as a whole.  And that is the crux of my argument, that abandoning Afghanistan at this point would likely throw Pakistan into a flat spin from which they are unlikely to recover in time.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 04:36:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.