House health care deliberations thread

Bumped.

The House of Representatives is debating HR 2962, the Affordable Health Care for America Act today. In a nice touch, Representative John Dingell (MI-15) is presiding over the chamber. He was one of the architects of the original Medicare bill. President Barack Obama went to the Capitol this morning to urge House Democrats to pass the bill. The final vote is expected this evening, and most observers believe 218 votes will be found.

I'm not watching the House proceedings, but from what I read on Twitter and the blogs, House Republicans are heckling Democrats and making their usual outlandish claims about the bill. Representative Steve King (IA-05) organized another rally at the Capitol today to "kill the bill." Side note: King and other wingnuts blew off a House Judiciary Committee hearing on Thursday to attend the "House call" wingnut rally against health care reform. Their absence doomed some Republican amendments to the PATRIOT Act reauthorization bill.

This thread is for any comments about the health care reform debate. I am upset that Representative Anthony Weiner (NY-09) was asked to withdraw his single-payer amendment from consideration, but Bart Stupak (MI-01) will be able to further restrict women's access to abortion services. That amendment would be a very bad deal for women. Now it's not just progressives, but half the population who will "take one for the team" so House leaders can pass a bill. I'm with Angry Mouse: this is not okay.

Meanwhile, a new poll from Virginia suggests opposing the public health insurance option was disastrous for Creigh Deeds.

According to Jane Hamsher, the AFL-CIO may cut off contributions to Democrats who vote against health care reform. A lot of Blue Dogs rely on organized labor to fund their campaigns.

What's on your mind?

Update [2009-11-7 16:27:3 by desmoinesdem]: The future of the State Children's Health Insurance Program is uncertain. As fairleft2 notes in this diary, the House bill moves children either to Medicaid or into private plans. It's not clear whether this provision could pass the Senate.

Update [2009-11-7 17:13:32 by Charles Lemos]:

Via the New York Times:

The House approved the rule governing debate of the big health care legislation by a vote of 242 to 192, suggesting but not guaranteeing that Democrats would have the votes to pass the bill itself later on Saturday.

Fifteen Democrats joined all 177 Republicans in opposition. One Democrat did not vote.

As a result the Democrats seemed to have a comfortable margin, with 24 more yes votes than they need for final passage of the bill.

The speaker pro tempore, Representative John D. Dingell, Democrat of Michigan, announced the tally.

The Democrats currently control 258 of 435 seats in the House, and with 218 votes needed to approve the bill, they can afford to lose 40 of their own caucus members and still win passage.

A final vote is expected on Saturday evening, but the process could take longer.

Update [2009-11-7 20:14:26 by Charles Lemos]: Via Politico:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi took to the House floor about 6:30 p.m. to say, “Today we will pass the Affordable Health Care for America Act.. . .We will make history. We will also make progress for America's working families."

In response to a question about whether the bill would pass when she brought it up, Pelosi told reporters Saturday night, "That is our expectation."

Thirty-two Democrats have publicly declared their opposition to the bill, giving party leaders the narrowest possible margin to push the bill across the finish line. But numerous sources said Democrats believe they do have the votes after a day of intense lobbying of wavering Democrats.

The vote is expected to take place around midnight eastern standard time.

Update [2009-11-7 22:31:5 by desmoinesdem]: Stupak amendment passed 240-194, gaining 64 Democratic votes. That's almost a quarter of the House Democratic caucus. Disappointing. Supposedly Obama told progressives this morning he will try to have the provision removed in conference. I would not bet money on that happening.

Update [2009-11-7 23:0:3 by desmoinesdem]: Click here for all roll call votes, including the Stupak amendment. An embarrassing number of Democrats who aren't even in the Blue Dog caucus voted for it. (I was proud to see that my own Blue Dog Representative Leonard Boswell (IA-03) voted against the Stupak amendment, though.) As Natasha Chart tweeted tonight, the Stupak amendment is exactly the kind of thing a Democratic majority was supposed to stop from coming to the floor. The DCCC won't get a dime from me this cycle.



Display:


Re: House health care deliberations thread (2.00 / 1)

Stupak's amendment may be almost a turnout killer
as failing to pass a public option.  A lot of pro-choice women may stay home next year.

Hoping this gets killed in conference.


by esconded on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 05:14:29 PM EST

it may get killed in conference (none / 0)

but what would progressives need to give up to get it killed? Very worrying.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 05:21:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it may get killed in conference (none / 0)

It won't die in conference. The anti-abortion crowd will watch it like a hawk. The best we can hope for is that it includes an exemption for woman's health.

Either it can be changed later - face it eventually democrats and liberals are going to confront this issue. If we want single-payer or medicare for all, this will be a big hurdle there. Or it dies in the courts (unlikely with the current SC).


by vecky on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 07:00:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shadegg... (none / 0)

....and four or five Republicans will vote "present" on the Stupak amendment.  Could this be a ploy to sink the bill, as Pelosi could lose just enough Dems?


by esconded on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 08:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it may get killed in conference (none / 0)

I'm trying to figure out what an exemption for women's health would look like.  The public option will cover abortion... but only if you need one for health reasons?  You can use your subsidy to buy insurance that covers abortion... but only if the coverage is limited to abortions for health reasons?  Hmm.

Public option covering any abortions at all seems like it would run afoul of the Hyde Amendment... not that I have any problem with weakening the Hyde Amendment, if we can get away with it.  The subsidy thing, that would probably be easier.  Just thinking out loud.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it may get killed in conference (none / 0)

Between the seven-month old ventriloquist's dummy and the false equivalence between women and smokers I'm guessing it's fair to say the Republicans have a tough row to hoe with the majority demographic in 2010.  The most significant take-away from the recent elections is that Owens ran on heath care reform in a Republican district and won.  Read it and weep, I say.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:21:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it may get killed in conference (none / 0)

And yet it still only passed by 219, and this was the weaker version of the potential house bill.


by bruh3 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:23:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it may get killed in conference (none / 0)

Is that the final tally?  Crikey.  That seems to suggest the 'art of the possible' is being finely tuned indeed.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:33:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it may get killed in conference (none / 0)

Please don't quote me something that is not proveable. It is like saying this is the best he could have gotten because this was the best he got. We have no idea whether a different strategy would have worked. We know from people like FDR and LBJ that certainly other strategies in DC are possible. And, let me remind you, that because it passed with such a tight number (and includes the odious bargaining chip of the anti women rights amendment), this means the House will now be weakened in its negotiation with the Senate. I am happy something passed in the House because it is still the better bill of the two parts of congress, but touting this as great is wrong. It's adequate. if that's your standard in life, that's wonder. It's not mine. It never will be.


by bruh3 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:38:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it may get killed in conference (none / 0)

Ya' gotta' judge these outcomes on your own subjective merits at the end of the day.  Who knows?  The fact that the vote was close at least suggests a daring attitude.  Whip counts suck at best and we won this one.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 12:14:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it may get killed in conference (none / 0)

Amen, brother.


So once again, we find that evil of the past seeps into the present like salad dressing through cheap wax paper, mixing memory and desire.
by thatrangeofshadesbetweenredandbluestuff on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 05:47:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it may get killed in conference (2.00 / 1)

Health care would not be a dealkiller for any of these "moderate" Dems in their districts... certainly not in the struggling blue-collar districts that need help like Owens'.  You've seen the polling... even the "left of the left" public option is quite popular.  I'm convinced the vast majority of the Blue Dogs use "moderation" as a cover when what they really care about is raking in the lobbyist cash (although Bart Stupak is in fact more anti-choice than the Pope).

Even a skeptic like me has been pretty certain for a couple months now that health care would get done in some form.  Obama's confidence has a trickle-down effect and this morning's meeting with the caucus was emblematic of that.

With a majority like this, you have to use it or lose it.  I'm pretty sure the Dems will be better off having a major accomplishment to run on.  But sometimes they need a kick in the ass to realize that!


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 12:48:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it may get killed in conference (none / 0)

The problem for dems going forward is who to support and who to ditch. As the vote showed our democratic majority is only @ 219. In fact I would say smaller by 1 because one member only voted for it because he was sure it would be changed.

We're gonna loose seats in 2010, but we can't afford to loose any, not one, progressive.


by vecky on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 12:57:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it may get killed in conference (none / 0)

Well, you have to also include the liberal Democrats who purity-trolled this vote.  Kucinich, Massa, were there others?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 01:09:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Use It or Lose It (none / 0)

Agreed.  I'm thinking we need some varsity practice for initiatives yet to come.  Climate change and energy issues next cab off the rank?


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 01:26:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Use It or Lose It (none / 0)

I have my doubts that cap and trade will make the cut, obviously.  It doesn't have quite the same constituency.

For now let's just get this one into the end zone.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 01:36:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No Argument There (none / 0)

But if the 'holy grail' is home and hosed what isn't on the agenda?  Everyone likes to be on the winning side.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 01:41:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: House health care deliberations thread (none / 0)

I am curious with these numbers whether the Medicare Plus 5 could have passed or whether this was designed to present a higher number than necessary to win to show Democratic strength. If the later, I would have a really big problem with the 242. I don't care if this passes by 218 or 242.


by bruh3 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 05:23:08 PM EST

Re: House health care deliberations thread (2.00 / 1)

According to accounts there are 23 firm nos. And another 9 nos who declared late last night. That's 32 nos. That leaves Pelosi only with a buffer of 8. It'll be close...


by vecky on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 08:16:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: House health care deliberations thread (none / 0)

George Miller says it will pass at 225. So that's a 7 vote margin only.


by cmpnwtr on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 09:02:17 PM EST

Re: House health care deliberations thread (none / 0)

Some think it passes with just 221 votes.  That doesn't give a lot of leverage with the Senate if it gets to conference.


by esconded on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 09:08:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: House health care deliberations thread (none / 0)

That would make the Republican house losses recently pretty hard to explain, eh?


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 09:32:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: House health care deliberations thread (2.00 / 1)

Yup, if the GOP had only won a couple of the contested special elections it would be razor thin.

But they didn't... so there ;p


by vecky on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yikes! (none / 0)

Sounds close.  From the Hill:


Though leaders feel comfortable, the margin is narrow. Aides said leaders are confident they have the 218 votes they need, but at the very least they want to find a 219th vote so that no one member can be considered the decisive vote.

Mike Soraghan and Jared Allen - Dems: 'We have the votes' 7 Nov 09 9:22 PM ET The Hill

If the margin for passage of this bill is so fine as to engage the votes of our two newly elected Congressional Democrats one might be forgiven wondering if, on the grounds of acuity, timing, daring and legislative finesse, the mythos of '11th dimensional chess' might yet be enshrined in the cheerful folklore of the present Obama administration.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:28:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yikes! (2.00 / 1)

According to reports there are 34 firm nos. Now with abortion effectively banned, what's their excuse?

When Owens was elected i said, in jest, that HCR would pass with 219 votes. I thought I was joking...


by vecky on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:38:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: House health care deliberations thread (2.00 / 1)

" I would not bet money on that happening."

I wouldn't either. But these are Democrats. Fool them once, fool them a thousand times, it does not matter, they will fall for it like Charlie for Lucy. Prediction, I now expect something similar to now pop up on the Senate side as "bipartisan."


by bruh3 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:38:38 PM EST

Re: House health care deliberations thread (none / 0)

In the senate there are slightly different dynamics, since just 40 pro-choicers can stall legislation until their demands are met. And the only GOP vote being remotely considered is also pro-choice.

I havn't read the amendment but does anyone know if it exempts a womans health? Bit silly to call it "health insurance" if not...


by vecky on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:46:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: House health care deliberations thread (2.00 / 1)

this is not my issue so I have not followed it closely enough to have read the language. OT: gay rights is my issue and I am only recently discovering how this bill continues the federal government process of screwing gay couples over.

I appreciate the Senate has different rules, but I also appreciate that DC narrative and bubblethink trumps all.

That Democrats, for any reason, even on the promise of it being stripped would pass this is a testament to how out of touch they are with their own base.


by bruh3 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:52:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stunned (none / 0)

that 64 Democrats would vote to pass the Stupak amendment.


Follow me on Twitter.
by Charles Lemos on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:44:13 PM EST

Re: Stunned (none / 0)

Why are you stunned?


by bruh3 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stunned (none / 0)

I'm stunned too. I had thought it would be closer to 30.

But what I'm really interested is in what dems vote for the amendment and vote against HCR.

And Cao from New Orleans... in summer in he had said he would vote for HCR if it didn't cover abortion. Well not that it ever did, but now it doubly doesn't, what's his excuse?


by vecky on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stunned (none / 0)

Cao may be a yes after all.

While I still think this abortion provision could be a turnout killer next year, keep in mind that government funding of abortion is unpopular--always has been.


by esconded on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:58:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stunned (none / 0)

This does not involve government funding of abortions. It involves from the generally read that I have seen of the issue a major expansion beyond that into private insurance.


by bruh3 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stunned (none / 0)

The argument is that if you get government subsidies to buy insurance, and you use them to buy an insurance policy that covers abortions, that's government funding of abortion.

Next up, I suppose, is that people will have to surrender their federal student loans if they want an abortion.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:05:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stunned (none / 0)

Don't give them any ideas. I like how these Democrats claim to be "moderates." Their definition of the word clearly has nothing to do with only using government power when necessary, and, everything to do with some Orwellian definition.


by bruh3 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:14:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stunned (2.00 / 1)

I think the problem here is that you and Charles trust these people. I don't. I think they are so caught up in the DC Bubblethink that once that bubble says something they believe it over all other reality.

OT: here's example of some financial bloggers discussing the DC reality here for politicians:

"My bottom line is that the people we met are very cognitively captured, assuming one can take their remarks at face value. Although they kept stressing all the things that had changed or they were planning to change, the polite pushback from pretty all the attendees was that what Treasury thought of as major progress was insufficient. It was instructive to observe that Tyler Cowen, who is on the other side of the ideological page from yours truly, had pretty much the same concerns as your humble blogger does."

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/11/c urious-meeting-at-treasury-department.ht ml#comment-63618

So if you don't like DC Bubblethink, you can always just call it cognitive capture. Outside of money in politics, it is one of the biggest issue with pushing a reform agenda.


by bruh3 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:58:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: House health care deliberations thread (none / 0)

Anti abortion Democrats.......why do we have those idiots with us?


by bsavage on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 10:51:41 PM EST

Perhaps because otherwise there'd be (2.00 / 1)

Republicans in those same seats?  On average, that wouldn't be supportive of the things Democrats support, I would think.

Sematically speaking, I think everyone is anti-abortion.  It's "anti-choice" that is the problematic position politically.


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:00:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perhaps because otherwise there'd be (none / 0)

What do you mean everyone is "anti-abortion"? Sometimes it's medically necessary. I know people who have had abortions... it's a decision not made lightly, and not made any easier by complete strangers moralizing over circumstances and conditions they don't know.


by vecky on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 12:53:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perhaps because otherwise there'd be (none / 0)

99.9999999% sure he's talking about elective abortion, not medical necessity.

I know people who have had abortions... it's a decision not made lightly...

That's the point.  Nobody celebrates abortion.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 02:18:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: House health care deliberations thread (2.00 / 1)

Climate change?  Foreign policy?


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Famous anti-abortion Democrats for $500 (none / 0)

Dennis Kucinich until 2003


by ND22 on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 08:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yea! The bill passed the House!! (none / 0)

??

Isn't anyone going to say it?

Is this the only place where there aren't progressives/liberals/dems at least voicing temporary pleasure at some progress being achieved?

Bueller?


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:30:04 PM EST

Hooray! (2.00 / 1)

So much for the narrative that the Obama administration has not accomplished X or Y in their first n months.  Dare I say, 'This is the day they said would never come.'

Ha, ha, ha.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hooray! (none / 0)

Many o fyou are showing your priorities. While I am thinking about how this will affect the ability to negotiate a better final bill in conference, you are touting how great this is for Obama.


by bruh3 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:39:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sir/Ma'am, (none / 0)

You have no idea what my priorities are.  

I haven't spoken to you much (ever?).  I've read a few of your comments and I have my own opinions, but I don't really know what your priorities are, either so I won't suggest that I might.

I won't even suggest what you are best served by as far as using your words.  Maybe what you do works for you, and maybe it helps the overall debate.


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:45:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sir/Ma'am, (none / 0)

I am making a simple point. Do the congrats after we get the bill out of Congress. Right now, we have only moved half way to the goal.


by bruh3 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:48:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm Thinking... (none / 0)

First down, ten to goal.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 12:16:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hooray! (2.00 / 1)

Some of us are complex enough to do both.  


Howard Dean is my go-to guy
by lojasmo on Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 12:41:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Iowa's Braley (2.00 / 1)

It was nice to see him stand up for the good things trial lawyer's do.

A doctor screws up and the GOP wants to blame the lawyers who help they/their families get some compensation.


by alamedadem on Sat Nov 07, 2009 at 11:55:45 PM EST


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