Executive vs. Legislative Experience

Adapted and expanded from an original post at The Wayward Episcopalian.

I'll be voting for Barack Obama, but I've made no secret about my own hesitations regarding the Illinois Senator's resume. That being said, he does have more leadership experience than Governor Palin. She was mayor of a town of less than 7,000 people for six years; he was a member of the state legislature that helped govern the nation's third largest city for seven. Come January, he will have been a member of the US Senate for four years; she a Governor of a state with 1.2 people per square mile for half that. The Republican response is, predictably, that her experience is EXECUTIVE and his (like McCain's) merely legislative. McCain surrogate Carly Fiornia, who was ousted as CEO of Hewlett Packard, has made that argument and insists that anyone who dares disagree with her is sexist:

I am appalled by the Obama campaign's attempts to belittle Governor Sarah Palin's experience. The facts are that Sarah Palin has made more executive decisions as a Mayor and Governor than Barack Obama has made in his life.

Because of Hillary Clinton's historic run for the Presidency and the treatment she received, American women are more highly tuned than ever to recognize and decry sexism in all its forms. They will not tolerate sexist treatment of Governor Palin.

I wonder, would Fiorina call herself a racist for ignoring Obama's work on ethics reform, death penalty reform, and nuclear proliferation? But I digress. The Republican spinners and conservative bloggers who take their marching orders have widely missed the mark about Palin's inexperience. I can only think of two possible reasons one would argue that executive experience is better than legislative experience, and neither makes sense.

The first is that the President, as head of the "Executive Branch," runs the government - but what's in a name? The President doesn't handle the nuts and bolts of management. He or she's got a Chief of Staff to run the White House and a Cabinet to run the various departments and agencies. Whether we acknowledge it with a Constitutional label or not, the President's legislative role is just as expansive and important as his (or her) management role. The State of the Union address largely sets the legislative agenda. The White House battles with Congress over every law and nomination, sending staffers and Cabinet members to the Hill for negotiations. And when it comes to those nominations, Senators have plenty of "experience" suggesting nominees to the President, so are just as qualified as a Governor to make such decisions. (That's part of what helped me quell me on Obama's inexperience after Biden and Dodd dropped out - the early and enthusiastic primary endorsements of former Majority Leader Daschle and former Majority Whips Kennedy and Durbin suggest he'll be able to navigate Congress. Palin can't claim that.)

Yes, perhaps being Governor does prepare a person for a small part of the Presidency, but not for the whole thing, and the same can be said of the Senate. So let's stop trying to suggest one is better than the other - especially since there are at least 16 American cities with larger populations than Alaska. You could even joke that Joe Biden gained more executive experience running the Senate Judiciary and Foreign Relations committee staffs (as well as his personal staff) than Sarah Palin gained running the village of Wasilla and its 53 employees - a job Palin herself said was "not rocket science," Fiorina's insistence to the contrary notwithstanding.

The second argument for executive experience is that four of our last five Presidents were Governors - but this just means Governors make good candidates, not good Presidents. Their resumes may have helped these four men reach the White House, but they didn't necessarily help them do a good job once they were there. Jimmy Carter was, well, Jimmy Carter - God love `im for his heart, but he couldn't negotiate with Congress and he couldn't rally the American people. Ronald Reagan knew how to inspire and helped speed up the end of the Cold War, but also left us with a then-record deficit and was either complicit or negligent in Iran-Contra. Bill Clinton botched health care negotiations with Congress and left office with no major second term achievements. George W. Bush appointed hacks like Michael Brown, Alberto Gonzalez, and Don Rumsfeld, mismanaged Iraq and Katrina, and will leave both the Constitution and America's reputation in tatters. Just what about these four Governors is supposed to fire me up about executive experience? I'm left yearning for the days of SENATOR John F. Kennedy, when responsibility was taken for mistakes (the Bay of Pigs), tax cuts were manageable, and cooler heads prevailed during the most perilous moment in our nation's history, or SENATOR Lyndon Baines Johnson, who (Vietnam aside) made for one heckuva domestic President.

Given Obama's short resume, Democrats shouldn't hammer Palin on her lack of experience - although he has been quick to point out that his campaign has a larger staff and budget than does Wasilla. At the same time, Republicans should drop the experience attacks on Obama and the line about executive experience. When they don't, let's clobber them for the hypocrites they are.



Display:


Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (2.00 / 1)

Look here's my POV - Obama is not ready to be president but he is our nominee. I hope I am wrong but I fear I am not.  I also believe that the GOP allowed McCain to be the nominee as a throwaway b/c they knew Clinton was  a much more inevitable win (ala their Dole nomination).  Now McCain is actually in play.  I mean GMAFB "Republicans for Obama" was an organization set up during the primary by the GOP.

But here we are.  Palin & Obama's experience aren't really comparable BUT we do have a history of unqualified VPs & even Presidents getting in office(just ask W). So at the end of the day I pray to God I'm wrong - I pray the DNC has not been split between 2 factions & that the good advisers Obama should use (if I am wrong & he actually wins) will be those that Clinton would've appointed.

It is a travesty b/c this election should've been inevitable. And now we are screwed so many ways around it is scary. I just keep voting the SC & pray I am wrong.


by jrsygrl on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 06:14:40 PM EST

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (1.00 / 2)

It shouldn't come down to experience - at least not totally. Capability and competence and hard work (especially the hard work that helps others and is not seen or used for talking points) are more important.


by Marjoriest on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:32:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Sorry, if you are woefully over your head (i.e. not enough experience), no matter how capable, how hard you work or how competent, you will fail.

Believe me, I am capable, competent and work very hard, but I would fail miserably as an air line pilot when I have only flown a single engine Cessna.


by anya109 on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:32:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Hi JG:

IMO experience is not a legitimate issue at all, and I think I can prove it (perhaps my claim is a little strong but here me out:-).

The argument for experience is that the President with it has a better understanding about how the complex world works and would be better able to deal with the problems that might come across his desk. But for everything the President will have to deal with there are lots of people who have tons of knowledge and understanding of the relevant issues. If there is an objectively right response to those issues there will be a consensus as to how we should respond and a President who is smart and listens to all sides will know that and respond accordingly.

Most of the time there isn't a consensus though; most of the time even people who know all about the issue disagree about how we ought to respond. In those cases, understanding the issues obviously doesn't tell us what we ought to do since every option has experienced people who advocate for it. What the President needs is intelligence, judgment and leadership to take the government in direction the people want. If you ask me Obama satisfies all those criteria. He is smart, he listens to all sides. In fact, that's cost him politically because his willingness to negotiate helped fuel the earlier criticism that he was cynically abandoning his principles for political purposes. We have no reason to think that Palin has any of those criteria, and McCain's dependably economically and socially right wing voting record means he shares the blame for the failure of the last 8 years Republican policies.

This whole experience thing is just a political tactic, nothing more.

your friend
Keith


by keith johnson on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:55:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

There is no job in the world (unless it is entry level) that one would argue against experience being necessary.  Our country is in a horrific state of affairs right now; we need someone with the well honed experience to deftly drive us back on course., more then ever. We see what McCain will do & it is more of the awful crap that got us here.  So our only hope now is to vote Obama; but it is a toss up at best if he is going to be able to handle the job b/c of his lack of experience.  No a candidate with more of the right kind of experience would of course be better. However that is not what we have now so this is our only hope & we need to go with that instead of deliberately allowing more of the same crap to continue.


by jrsygrl on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Hi JG:

You wrote: "There is no job in the world (unless it is entry level) that one would argue against experience being necessary.  Our country is in a horrific state of affairs right now; we need someone with the well honed experience to deftly drive us back on course., more then ever. We see what McCain will do & it is more of the awful crap that got us here.  So our only hope now is to vote Obama; but it is a toss up at best if he is going to be able to handle the job b/c of his lack of experience.  No a candidate with more of the right kind of experience would of course be better. However that is not what we have now so this is our only hope & we need to go with that instead of deliberately allowing more of the same crap to continue."

It doesn't seem to me you addressed my argument, you just asserted the opposite. In most jobs the reason experience is important is that there is some skill or skills one needs to learn. What's the skill that Obama lacks that (let's say) McCain has, or Hillary has? I would say that history doesn't support the idea that experienced Presidents tend to be better Presidents than inexperienced ones: the great Millard Fillmore had more experience than Abraham Lincoln--more also than Bill Clinton--but arguably Lincoln and Clinton were much more effective leaders. I think my argument shows WHY Lincoln's experience gap didn't disdvantage him relative to Fillmore.

your friend
Keith

your fr


by keith johnson on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:49:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

No it didn't support your post at all.  Honestly these types of posts are a bit circular in thought and convoluted in their logic. When one has a raw base skill set one needs to set out getting progressively accelerated levels of EXPERIENCE to hone said skill set. Obama has not had the EXPERIENCE to hone the skill set that people are asserting they think he has.  There were people who he ran against which did. He hasn't had a chance to refine said skill set in certain settings. There were people who he ran against that did. I have alot of skills and raw potential which I am in the process of honing over the past 10+ years. And I bet I'd run alot of larger corporations better then the idiots they have in charge in some of the places. But there are other people who have my skills, who are in line with those roles but ALSO have the experience demonstrating those skills in certain roles & who have also had a longer duration to hone them.  And they'd be in competition with me (if I even got a second glance) for those jobs. And they would rightfully be given greater consideration for very sensible reasons.


by jrsygrl on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 08:14:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And why not? (none / 0)

You may argue that Hillary had more experience overall, and therefore was more qualified, but that in and of itself doesn't mean Barack is not ready to lead.


"Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
by molly bloom on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 06:23:43 PM EST

Re: And why not? (2.00 / 2)

That is a key point.

Experience is ONLY valuable in that it tends to assist judgment and gives us a record by which to measure somebody's judgment.

But it is JUDGMENT not experience that makes a good leader.


by dMarx on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 06:55:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And why not? (1.00 / 2)

I wouldn't go there. Choosing your friends and mentors wisely, the judgement to understand and help those in difficulty, having strong wise opinions and standing up for them in the face of disapproval proves good judgement - hmmmm.


by Marjoriest on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And why not? (none / 0)

Where does judgment come from - the aether, is it innate in some people but not in others? Or, is it experience that makes judgment along with the capacity to understand and learn, so you can use your experience to make good decisions?


by anya109 on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:43:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And why not? (none / 0)

Uhh judgment tends to become more refined & well honed WITH experience. One starts out with potential which is then honed over time with EXPERIENCE. Having a base instinct & intellect are great tools that are REFINED with experience. If you move too soon then you aren't working at your best.  There is a reason why a new grad from college isn't regularly hired to run a large company - he/she may have great potential but they need to develop themselves & hone their judgment with increasing levels of experience that expands their capabilities. I can't believe I am having this conversation - isn't this basic common sense?  Regardless, we have what we have time to move forward.


by jrsygrl on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:16:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And why not? (none / 0)

Experience refines ones judgment capabilities & also demonstrates how one executes judgment under certain similar types of circumstances.


by jrsygrl on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 08:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

All you got out or the Bill Clinton years was that he "botched healthcare"??

Yes, while he began most of his accomplishments in his first term, what good president didn't??

My history book on Bill Clinton shows he stewarded over the lowest unemployment rate in modern times, took a budget deficit to largest post-war surplus, the lowest inflation in 30 years, the highest home ownership in the history, dropping crime, and reduced
welfare roles.

Belittling Bill Clinton's accomplishments because he came from the Executive branch doesn't further your argument.


If you had everything, where would you put it?
by wasanyonehurt on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 06:25:49 PM EST

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (2.00 / 1)

I don't think Clinton was by any means a bad president, I just don't think history will judge him as an exceptionally good one. The surplus was great, but Bush 1 gets some of the credit for that. And the President only has so much control over the economy, so while I tip my cap to Clinton for the inflation and home ownership numbers, I don't fully credit him for them, just as I don't fully blame him for the stock market drop and recession that came at the end of his Presidency. Yes, the welfare roles declined, but that's because we changed who's on them, not because we took a massive bite out of poverty. All in all, I'd say Clinton was one of the best caretaker Presidents we ever had, but his time as an executive didn't set him up as a great leader.


The Wayward Episcopalian
by Transplanted Texan on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 06:37:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bush I gets NO CREDIT (none / 0)

as the deficit, even with his tax hikes on the middle class as opposed to the rich, was projected to be over $600 billion by the end of the '90s at the rate he was going when he left office.


by Lakrosse on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 06:50:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bush I gets NO CREDIT (2.00 / 1)

I don't think it's fair to deny Bush I any credit for the budget improvements, as the legislation he signed into law did increase revenue.  I also think Clinton's lack of legislative experience did hurt him in getting his 1993 budget passed (and in other dealings with Congress).  Clinton's good judgment, however, helped assure the 1993 budget package was a very smart one that led to the huge surpluses later that decade.  
I agree with dMarx, it's judgment that makes a good leader.
by Mr DC on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bush I gets NO CREDIT (none / 0)

Your crediting BUSH 1 with Clinton's achievements?! GMAFB.


by jrsygrl on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bush I gets NO CREDIT (1.00 / 1)

His tax hikes were to balance the budget, and eliminate the budget.  The Democrat controlled Congress refused to give him the tax increases without some spending increases, he had wanted to eliminate programs but Congress forced him to increase them.  That is the irony  Bill Clinton succeeded by continuing  Bush  policies with a Republican Congress that forced him into the kind of cuts Bush wanted but was unable to get from a Democrat Congress.  Extroidinary Rendition and Regime change in Iraq was started under the Clinton Administration rather than our current President.

Bill Clinton was H.W. Bush's second and third term with a more favorable Congress.  While the first Bush and Clinton were conservatives at their best, the second bush and what McCain is running as is the crazy Right at its worst.  Bill Clinton did a good job of planting the Democrats ontop of the reasonable conservative right.  The problem is the people with loyalty to the name Republican are now supporting the crazy right which now owns the party and can no longer be identified as conservative.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:14:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

go back to fucking Free Republic (none / 0)

if you wanna give felatio to the Republican party and spout unsubstantiated myth bullshit about extroadinary rendition. Bill Clinton contained Saddam, which WAS at one point necessary which is why he wasn't a threat when W. came to office. Clinton probably never dreamed of invading Iraq. show some honor. Bush I gets no credit for jack shit.


by Lakrosse on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: go back to fucking Free Republic (none / 0)

Your very dogmatic.  The extraordinary rendition information comes from the ACLU, something Republicans tend to run away from.  I never said Bill Clinton wanted to invade Iraq, he did bomb it for 4 days at one time though, and his administration did come up with the idea for regime change in Iraq but that does not mean he wanted to send US troops to pull it off.

Thank you for proving that just because 99% of people on the Right have their head in the sand does not mean that type is not present on the Left.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:04:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (2.00 / 1)

We disagree then, Bill Clinton's years saw unprecedented Peace and Prosperity that history will acknowledge him as a great leader.

And if we give credit to GHWB for the surplus in Clinton's 8 years in office, why don't we give Clinton the blame for W's record deficit now?  8 years is a long time, too long to give GHWB any credit.  There have been plenty of bad presidents that took a good situation and screwed it up. One could argue that the recession that began to take hold in his last month in office would have been corrected by him with stimulus etal. had he still had more years of his presidency too.

20th century saw, hot wars turn into Cold War then into Bill Clinton's years then into the neverending War on Terror.  Yes, Clinton has some military scuffles but he won them and got us out, and yes he tried to get Bin Laden and did warn W about Bin Laden and was ignored.

Compare Bill Clinton's years to any others in the past 40 years - on balance economic/foreign affairs/militarily there is no comparison.


If you had everything, where would you put it?
by wasanyonehurt on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 06:58:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

I'm not bringing Bush 1 into it merely because hew as Clinton's predecessor, like Clinton and Bush 2, but because of specific actions he took. Bush raised taxes that set the table for making it easier to balance the budget (although I was unaware of the figures in the above comment and will have to look more into them). Clinton certainly gets most of the credit, but was not the only key player. Additionally, I see balancing the budget not as some great feat but as a basic tenant of good governance. If you balance the budget, you're hitting par, but I'm not going to call you great just because you didn't blow it like Bush or Reagan.

You are absolutely right that Clinton is one of the best, if not the best, Presidents of the past 40 years, I won't argue with you there - but that's not exactly stiff competition, given the other occupants of that period.


The Wayward Episcopalian
by Transplanted Texan on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:03:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (2.00 / 1)

My letter to the Oregonian today:

Editor:

Primed with their GOP talking points, many of Sunday's letter writer's dutifully point out that Sarah Palin has more "executive experience" than Obama and Biden combined. Of course she also has more "executive experience" than John McCain. This does not seem to be a disqualifying factor for him, however. If I'm clear on the rules, it's OK not to have "executive experience" if you're the Republican at the top of the ticket. For that matter, I'm sure it won't be long before we hear that even questioning Mr. McCain's "executive experience" would be wrong because he was a POW 40 years ago which automatically makes him an expert on "executive experience".

Have I hit the mark?


by mouse on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 06:30:17 PM EST

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

It is generally considered that the best experience for President are in the following order.

President
Vice-President
Governor (or mayor of a large city)
Senator or Congressman.

So that is it.  Obama compares his campaign budget to Wasilla but the more relevant comparison would be his campaign budge to the budget of Alaska, which is about $ 11 billion.

It seems to me the big difference between Palin and Obama is that Obama has been involved in the national debate regarding foreign policy and other issues for the last four years and Palin has not.

One last thing.  If Obama had made Hillary his VP, we would not be having this discussion.


by dMarx on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 06:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Yes, we'd still be having this discussion if Senator Clinton were on the ticket. Biden can hold his own on the experience front just as well as she, although I do admire her resume and accomplishments. But if Biden doesn't wipe out Obama's deficits, neither would Clinton or Richardson or anyone else. Obama stands on his own merits; there's no melding him and the VP into one.

I would agree with you about the campaign/Wasilla comparison, except that she's been Governor of Alaska for less than two years. The bulk of her public service, and the resume item her party kept pointing to at the RNC, was her time as the village mayor.


The Wayward Episcopalian
by Transplanted Texan on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Palin has been Governor of Alaska longer than Obama has been running for President.  So it is a total non sequitur to say that Obama's running a campaign counts as executive experience but Palin's tenure as governor does not.

And yes, if Obama had nominated Hillary we are not having this discussion because Palin wold not be McCain's VP pick.  Obama left McCain an opening to pick a female VP and he took it.  


by dMarx on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:38:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good Christ! (2.00 / 1)

So, all of the problems of the world really started when Obama decided to run for office.  Ever other problem in the world stems from that, right?

(d)

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Ah, I misunderstood your point about Senator Clinton. Apologies, my bad. You're no doubt correct, there'd be no point going after disaffected Clinton voters if they weren't disaffected. We'd probably see a McCain-Pawlenty ticket in that case, true true.


The Wayward Episcopalian
by Transplanted Texan on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:42:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's all speculation (none / 0)

but if you qualified your remarks a little bit, I think you would be accurate (e.g. Palin would likely not be McCain's running mate if HRC were Obama's running mate).  It's all in the past, it's probably not worth dwelling on.  If things don't work out, then that time it will be worth revisiting why he didn't make a different choice.  Until then, I get the sense that you only trying to stir stuff up.

But I agree that I'd rather have Mitt Romney and Tim Pawlenty following their terrible convention speeches on the ticket, rather than their female version of Obama.


by Blazers Edge on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:42:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Agree totally with this.


by anya109 on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:04:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

spend your time going after the Rep (2.00 / 1)

ticket or please just shut the fuck up.

Attack Palin as an inexperienced whackjob Creationist book-burning hypocritical pork-barrel trough-swiller who was lucky enough to walk into a state in the middle of an oil boom and "cut" spending with the largest state budget ever.

Attack McCain as an undisciplined mealy-mouthed trigger-twitch who only got his wings because Daddy let him and only has money because his second trophy-wife's Daddy gave it to her.

One last thing.  If Obama had made Hillary his VP, we would not be having this discussion.

And if Obama had picked God Him/Her-self as VP we would be having exactly this same fucking disucssion, moran.  God was not a President, VP or Governor, either.

Take a half-hour in the Jerome Armstrong "My Candidate Didn't Win" pout corner and don't come back until you can read a fucking caldendar.

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:35:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: spend your time going after the Rep (1.00 / 1)

Yes of course, how intellectual.

In fact, instead of having objective discussions about political realities and strategy lets just recite talking points according to the world as you see it.

Please ignore my previous post objectively contrasting Palin with Obam in regards to experience, even though I give favorable approval to Obama, because I have dared to criticize his VP pick and after all Sarah Palin is a "an inexperienced whackjob Creationist book-burning hypocritical pork-barrel trough-swiller."

Clearly, this is the kind of discussion that wins elections and is the reason people come to MyDD.

Oh, and one last thing,  is it just me or does it smell like Kool-Aid in here?


by dMarx on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:46:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She is: (none / 0)

"an inexperienced whackjob Creationist book-burning hypocritical pork-barrel trough-swiller."

And blaming her on Obama's VP pick is not unlike blaming a rape victim.

Get past the primaries.


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:06:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She is: (none / 0)

Think of it like a chess game blasky.   One player can predict another player's moves based on the response to his moves. It is called "strategy."

When Obama nominated Biden instead of Clinton, McCain saw an opening to try to attract disaffected female voters and so he went for the best female VP he could find.  All things considered, Sarah Palin is short of experience but McCain calculated it was the best he could do.

That is why Palin is on the GOP ticket.  It was a very predictable move on McCain's part.

Now I don't know if Palin is Obama's "fault" as you put it but he for sure made a  decision to leave that strategic opening to McCain when he nominated Biden.  Obam decided that he needed foreign policy bonafides on the ticket more than he needed a "female" vote.

If all that is too much brain damage for you, you can just go with Palin raping Obama with a Bible or however you put it.


by dMarx on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 02:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If it's chess (none / 0)

then as you know, every move has fractal ramifications.

What is being proposed is that Obama had no choice but to choose a woman and must therefore make his choice enitrely on gender.  If you believe that being forced into a gender-pander position and allowing all of your actions to be predicated on that bit of sexism, then I want to play chesss against you.

And all of you, if you think that decisions should be made based on the gender of the individuals involved, then we know who the sexists are.

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 10:13:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hammer the crap out of the lame Palin (none / 0)


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:26:22 PM EST

Re: Hammer the crap out of the lame Palin (none / 0)

Did you see what Jon Stewart did with this Rove clip?

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index. jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-pal in-gender-card


The Wayward Episcopalian
by Transplanted Texan on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:32:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He's doing more good (none / 0)

than MyDD...


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:42:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's doing more good (2.00 / 0)

Are you reading these threads blasky? did you see the one before this one? Singer and Jerome make great points and the comments section is just pure filth and garbage. This one is worse. The trolls officialy outnumber the users who care about this place. This is so fucking sad.
Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:45:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm just fed up with it (2.00 / 0)

There is no sense of logic in this place, and while I may take it out on Jerome in undue proportions to his commentary, as a sole proprietor his support for (or lack of opposition to, which is largely the same thing) the trollwork puts it at his feet.

You see the shit passing for commentary, right?  "Obama is responsible for Sarah Palin" etc.   What sort of twisted logic is that?  "If she hadn't dressed like that, she never would have had a problem..."... - arrgghhh, I'm debating theoretical physics with fire hydrants...


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 12:00:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hammer the crap out of the lame Palin (2.00 / 1)

CHRIS THESE CLIPS HAVE AD WRITTEN ALL OVER IT!!!


by nzubechukwu on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:50:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ya' think? (none / 0)

Checkout the link in TT's reply below.  Jon Stewart has already ripped a new one with them.

Repost, email to your Undecided friends...

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

"Given Obama's short resume, Democrats shouldn't hammer Palin on her lack of experience..."  T.T that's why dems loose GE because we play by the rules.  America needs to know about her lack of foreign experience.


by nzubechukwu on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:44:27 PM EST

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

But nzubechukwu, she lives near Russia!!!! (snark)

Given that Obama sits on the Foreign Relations committee, I'm perfectly willing to hit her on her lack of foreign policy experience. I don't play by the rules, I play by the truth, and her foreign resume is fair play.


The Wayward Episcopalian
by Transplanted Texan on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:58:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Does Carly have standing to criticize someone's executive experience?


by smoker1 on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:47:30 PM EST

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Who is Carly?


by nzubechukwu on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:48:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Carly Fiorina is the former HP CEO (2.00 / 1)

who sold off all the company's core value and fucked it up royaly.  Now McCain advisor.

In Silicon Valley she's widely respected as one of the worst CEOs ever to sip a latte in Palo Alto...


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:03:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Carly = the Sarah Palin of CEO's (none / 0)

Carly Fiorina was the CEO of HP from 1999 to 2005. She had no background in technology. Her background was in marketing. Her biggest accomplishment was probably laying off a lot of employees, something that arguably had to be done. However,like many marketing executives  who try to run technology companies, she was not very successful.

Carly's reign at HP was bad for the stockholders. When she  was CEO in 1999, HP stock was about $50. When she left in 2005, HP stock was about $20, where it had been languishing for about 3 years since the dot com bust. Since Carly left, HP has become profitable again and is back at $50.

I view Carly like Sarah Palin. She has a strong personality and does well in press conferences, but she does not  have sufficient expertise or leadership to pull a company/country out of the mud.


by erlin on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 12:03:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

She's a former CEO of a major corporation (HP), which for all I know is larger than some small states. Take that for whatever it's worth.


The Wayward Episcopalian
by Transplanted Texan on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:59:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Thanks for the info T.T and Chris.


by nzubechukwu on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:21:03 PM EST

Experience vs Experience. (2.00 / 1)

In this campaign season we have overwhelmingly accepted name recognition and time in job title as a substitute for experience.  You can be mayor, governor, and senator without ever gaining any real knowledge from the job.

I look at Senator McCain's and Governor Palin's record and I do not see the type of people that excel at knowledge aquisition and the type of participation that gives people experience or judgement.  Obama on the other hand has excelled at everything he has done, and has shown himself to be the type of person that learns, grows and achieves.  Experience is not how long you have been around but what you know, and what you have done, and how those two things help you to make the right choices.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:44:12 PM EST

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

  The one example I have of Obama's executive experience is the way he's been running his campaign.  And that has to be taken positively--he shot past Hillary the Inevitable due to his (or his staff's) good strategic thinking.  There's been no  circus acts like those that have plagued the McCain campaign (How many lobbyists can fit in the Straight-Talk Express?  And what's with Walter Reed Middle School?).  So he's had successful executive experience--Sarah not so much.


by whomever1 on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:57:27 PM EST

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

This is one fucked up thread. Just like the other frontpage post. ( the comments section I mean, not the post)
Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:42:54 PM EST

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Par for the course, sadly. I appreciate the Netroots' passion, but read fewer and fewer comment section severy day. Commmmme onnn January!


The Wayward Episcopalian
by Transplanted Texan on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:31:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thank you (none / 0)

I learned from your diary, and want to say I gave you mojo.  Is that the correct term?


by bzzz on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:56:03 PM EST

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

Kysen, cut it out with the ratings abuse. None of the comments you gave a "0" to were worth hiding - none were worth the mojo I gave them, but your damage had to be undone. That's very petty of you. Stick to 1s if you must, but 0s were waaay over the top - or below the bottom, as the case may be.


The Wayward Episcopalian
by Transplanted Texan on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:35:15 PM EST

Re: Executive vs. Legislative Experience (none / 0)

I saw no ratings abuse. What I have seen throughout this thread is the sad and terminal abuse of a once great progressive blog.

If you want to argue whether a note was sharp or flat, that's fine. But Rome is burning. Or maybe I should put a Je before that city.


by duende on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 09:21:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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