MyDD :: Son Of Post-Debate Thread

Son Of Post-Debate Thread

by Todd Beeton, Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:26:20 PM EST

A few things of note:

Marc Ambinder reports on the results of a CBS News poll of Undecided voters.

40% of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Barack Obama was the winner. 22% thought John McCain won. 38% saw it as a draw.

Are we being too generous to John McCain?

Also, this was clearly Barack's moment of the night, worth re-watching:

Hillary Clinton's statement on tonight's debate:

"Tonight Barack Obama displayed beyond a doubt that he understands both the gravity of the financial crisis facing America, and the challenges we face in Iraq and around the world. Senator McCain offered only more of the same failed policies of the Bush Administration. America deserves better.

"I stood next to Barack Obama in 22 debates and tonight epitomized why millions are joining me in standing with him and working hard to ensure he is the next President of the United States."

What else are you reading? Hearing?

Update [2008-9-26 23:32:59 by Todd Beeton]:Holy crap. CNN's post-debate poll

Who did the best job in the debate?
Barack Obama 51
John McCain 38
Who would better handle Iraq?
Barack Obama 52
John McCain 47
Who would better handle the economy?
Barack Obama 58
John McCain 37

Wow man. Well, the people seem to be speaking pretty clearly tonight.

Update [2008-9-26 23:45:29 by Todd Beeton]:61% of CNN's focus group of 32 undecideds in Ohio said Barack Obama won the debate, 39% said it was McCain. But I think the most telling part of Soledad O'Brien's recap of the results of the focus group was this:

Barack Obama actually got more high marks from the Independents, Democrats and Republicans across the board, McCain, a strong Republican response but really not from Democrats or Independents very often.

Tags: barack obama, debate (all tags)

Permalink :: 124 Comments :: Post a Comment

CNN Shows 51-38 (2.00 / 1)

Obama win; if so, this election is close to over barring some type of total implosion/scandal.

by Blazers Edge on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:31:11 PM EST

Get real. (none / 0)

This ain't over by a longshot. Everyone thought that Bush got the answers from a wire in his debate, and he still won.

You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:32:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, it's close to being over (2.00 / 1)

b/c Obama is ahead by 3-5 points; Bush could afford to screw up because he was up over 5 on Kerry.

Obama has this thing won barring total gaffe/scandal.

by Blazers Edge on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:34:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Get real. (2.00 / 2)

Yeah but remember that Bush had a HUGE lead before that debate. Now Obama has the lead so a slight victory kills one of McCain's last chances.

But in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope.

by thezzyzx on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:36:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree (2.00 / 3)

I think this is over and we won.

Now what we have to do is work overtime to put it away big time.

Let's go for the landslide people.

The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.

by nrafter530 on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:40:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This could be a landslide (2.00 / 2)

McCain getting beat by Obama on a foreign policy debate? He has nothing left besides hoping for an October surprise.

As of right now, McCain is not a gimme in Missouri, Ohio, and Florida and will now need to pour serious money in Indian and North Carolina while trailing in Virginia and Colorado. That's simply too much for him to overcome barring some miracle.

This is starting to resemble Clinton's 1992 big electoral college victory.

by Blazers Edge on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

October worries me (none / 0)

I think that we are still in for some sort of surprise. Maybe not another Osama bin Laden video, but something more nefarious thought up by Cheney.

by gavoter on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:41:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: October worries me (none / 0)

Rs are done with stunts. As we saw this past week, Rs are willing to take the biggest crisis since 911 and play politics with it. I'd wager there is more to come.

by vinny on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:55:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: October worries me (none / 0)

correction.. Rs ARN'T Done with stunts.

by vinny on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: October worries me (none / 0)

Yeah, expect some more batshit craziness from their side tomorrow...

Their BS never ends...

"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"

by LordMike on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:28:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Whew (2.00 / 2)

When you said that it was over I almost freaked out. We don't want to get overconfident.

But then you said we need to fight for a landslide, and I'm cool with that. :)

Obama could really use a landslide to really get a true mandate.

You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:54:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We still have to bear (none / 0)

two weeks of Wright - you know it's coming. That's going to cost 1-3 points.

by Neef on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:31:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We still have to bear (2.00 / 1)

actually bringing up Wright when Palin has a pastor/jewish problem?

Florida is close enough, the only thing they want to to is force that fight out, sure they scare people from Obama some, but they lose Florida for sure.

Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.

by TruthMatters on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:36:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As long as Obama wasn't in the Pews (2.00 / 2)

on any days in question (or they don't catch him in the pews on video), I think we're fine if McCain chooses to go down that route and breaks the gentleman's agreement (don't use Wright, we don't use the affair). By fine, I mean we lose 2 points though, but we may be up by 5 so that may not matter.

They need video and as of this moment, they don't have at it (if they did, McCain probably wins).

by Blazers Edge on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:59:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If he'll gamble with the bailout (none / 0)

he'll break the unspoken compact. But I agree we should be able to eat 2 points by then.

by Neef on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:04:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, we'll hear a lot about (2.00 / 1)

the first Mrs. McCain if McCain decides to go down that route.

It's not a game-changer without Obama in the pews. It'll just be a smaller electoral college victory with Wright playing throughout October though perhaps the affair could get us back 1-2 points if we lose 2-3 for Wright.

by Blazers Edge on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:06:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I was at a watch party (none / 0)

The consensus was that McCain probably won, because Obama let him get away with all that condescending bullshit.

I'm not sure I agree, but it was obnoxious.

You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:31:34 PM EST

Re: I was at a watch party (2.00 / 2)

Partisan or mixed?

I personally thought Obama won by a hair - and thus far, it seems to be only me and the focus groups that were more impressed by Obama on foreign policy than McCain (unlike everybody, I didn't think Obama was that good for the first 30 minutes).

It's amazing... TPM, here, Dailykos, 538 - all the places I hit that were liveblogging -- everyone seems to say either toss-up or slight edge McCain-but he needed more.

Yet - the narrative is QUICKLY developing that Obama won this debate. ALL of the network flash polls are saying the same thing.

Have we jumped the Democratic shark? Are we so invested in worrying about our chances that we've gone off the tracks.

by zonk on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:38:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Interestingly (none / 0)

It was 100% Obama, actually, but some of them were think tank wonks.

You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:48:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Interestingly (none / 0)

Heh.

Well - that cinches it - it should be me, not David Brooks, who should speak for middle America

by zonk on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Interestingly (none / 0)

They wanted me to blog on their website, Minnesota2020, due to my commentary. I was flattered.

www.MN2020.org

You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (2.00 / 1)

the last few elections have conditioned us to nitpick the flaws in our own candidates, while glossing over the huge black hole of awful which follows the GOP around. It gives me hope if Inds aren't falling it anymore.

by Beomoose on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:10:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (none / 0)

Prbably. The liberal blogosphere seems to love being negative about its own chances.

by spirowasright on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:14:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (2.00 / 1)

I was at a 'watch' party myself and embarrassed myself by swearing into my clenched fists for the first ten minutes. Arrgh. How many of these have I watched now? But Obama found his voice and he actually mentioned Russia in the context of a diplomatic solution regarding Iran and that is a milestone. I don't recall him making that connection before but it is so obvious.

And the 'conspicuous China' remark was the pièce de résistance of the night. That sealed the deal with me. Any foreign policy junkie who heard that had no illusions about the national security credentials of our respective candidates. One is an unreconstructed Cold-Warrior, diverting our attention to old unsettled scores of the last century, and the other is a leader exposing us to the real challenges facing us in the new one.

by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:31:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

why were you swearing into your hand? (none / 0)

Obama was solid all night. Our man's first instinct is not to attack - he's a counter puncher.

On foreign policy, we're going to have to be content with our current minority viewpoint that foreign policy is Obama's strength. I actually think that Obama likes thinking and talking about foreign policy over domestic policy. Lots of nuance and sophistication in his foreign policy views. On domestic policy, we get pretty standard Democratic Party fare.

Our Moment Is Now

by mboehm on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:45:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why were you swearing into your hand? (2.00 / 1)

Oh, the first ten minutes were all my worst memories of last July. I will say this unequivocally, the first candidate to articulate credibly why we have to spend $700B dollars and make us grateful to make such a timely investment will be President. They both ducked and weaved on that one like a pair of varmints. But time and enough for that and I would probably be as nervous watching Obama taking a position on that as I was watching him wriggle.

And a call out here to Lehrer, I watched his show for years and this gig was like a Lifetime Achievement Acadamy Award but he aced it. Someone here has a sig line about placing a straight stick next to a bent one and all I can say is that the debate moderator shamed every network show-pony that we suffered through in the primaries. He and Cafferty get my 'real journalism' awards for the day.

But my most agonising moment was the Ahmadinejad preconditions exchange. Crikey:

"Well that would be a problem except as you should know, Senator, Ahmadinejad isn't the head of state of Iran but really just their minister of propaganda and if I met with the leadership I would expect to speak with Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei as Vladimir Putin did last year when he negotiated security and energy agreements..."

How hard would that have been? But I must admit my host hustled me home because, insisting on a liquid brunch, as your evening gigs are mid-morning here in Australia, I was most vocal about the proceedings throughout and commandeered the poor woman's laptop to follow the live-blogging on MyDD. I think I have a political 'virtual substance abuse' problem perception problem among my friends. I think she suggested 'compulsive.'

by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:04:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why were you swearing into your hand? (none / 0)

Compulsive? Us? Nahhh....

"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."

by vcalzone on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:08:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why were you swearing into your hand? (none / 0)

You ought to get out more. It's a shocker.

by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:14:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why were you swearing into your hand? (none / 0)

But I agree, foreign policy is clearly his strength, as you an I have noted for quite some time. And why shouldn't it be, it requires the most subtlety and agility of mind to see these combinations and react to them?

by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:05:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, but really, what can he do? Come back with something like, "You call me naive? Well what about when you did so and so..."? I don't think that kind of tit-for-tat would've made it better.

Let McCain get his shots in. The condescension only works if it re-enforces what the voters are actually seeing. Obama did absolutely nothing to indicate that he actually was naive, unknowledgeable, etc. Without that, McCain's taunts are just empty and petty. Only dimwits at RedState or the Corner would think those were point-scoring jabs rather than the uncomfortably angry mini-tantrums they actually were.

(Time's Karen Tumulty actually took the bait and called the naive/unknowledgeable insults a "theme." Shiny object, Karen, shiny object!)

Incidentally, I can think of only one past candidate who really COULD have thrown McCain's taunts right back at him with a mix of good-humor and political seriousness: the Big Dog himself.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (2.00 / 1)

Obama just needs patience, which he has.

This was McCain's best debate subject. He's got his best zingers out of the way and he'll be struggling next time.

You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:50:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (none / 0)

well, at least we learned that the way out of our economic crisis is to cut earmarks. Or something.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:53:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (2.00 / 1)

Actually, what we learned was the way out of our economic crisis is to stop studying bear DNA.

It seems so obvious now....

If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.

by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:56:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain's lucky (none / 0)

If he mentioned the I-35W bridge, the entire group I was with was going to reach through the TV and strangle his pretentious old ass.

You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (none / 0)

You're only laughing because you don't understand the difference between strategy and tactics.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:00:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (none / 0)

You're only laughing because you don't understand the difference between strategy and tactics.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:00:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (none / 0)

You can say it twice, but I'll choose strategery any day over your so-called "strategy and tactics".

If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.

by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 02:00:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No doubt (none / 0)

$18 billion!

You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:56:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (2.00 / 1)

It all depends on how it's perceived. If people saw it as Obama "letting him get away with it", then McCain might've won. On the other hand, if people saw it as Obama being the bigger person, Obama wins.

Condescension can be overplayed and boomerang. Similarly, going for the "bigger person" reaction is a risk; you might get that, or you might have people perceive you as weak.

In this case, my personal feeling (and fortunately for me, the polls so far support it) is that people overall saw Obama as the bigger person. My suspicion is that the people who were predisposed to perceive Obama as weak already were not voting for him and don't factor into who really won the debate or not.

No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!

by Texas Gray Wolf on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:43:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You may be right (none / 0)

On policy, Obama wins hands down... but... yeah.

I just remember some ridiculous frickin' reactions to debates by American citizens before; I don't want to bank on the Republicans spinning this one, no matter how seemingly incompetant they've been the last few weeks.

You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (none / 0)

I can't believe what I'm hearing here. Obama clearly won this thing. Perhaps I'm inclined to think that anyway, but McCain's goal was to make people think Obama was naive, and I can't imagine how anyone could get that impression from this.

This is a race, not tag, and McCain needed to pull ahead. He most certainly didn't. Obama never let him do it. He clung on until the end, and if you were watching CNN, you watched him win the highest numbers of the night when he spoke about America's place in the world. When it cut back to McCain and he went negative, he completely lost independents.

"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."

by vcalzone on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:26:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at a watch party (2.00 / 1)

There was only one barrier Obama had to cross tonight and it was both simple and profound, he had to pass the 'commander-in-chief' test. And every pundit's analysis which credits Obama's position with at least par credibility and substance as McCain's is a victory, and there will be plenty. That's all we need and Obama did that and to spare. He may also have even gotten a few people to go, 'Hmm...' That's always been our best shot.

by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:39:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

Great quote, Hillary.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:31:36 PM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

by the way, that was sincere, not sarcasm.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama wins by not losing. n.t. (none / 0)

Yawn.

by spacemanspiff on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:34:44 PM EST

I listened on the radio (2.00 / 1)

except for the first 20 minutes or so, which I watched on tv (what was with McCain's awful tie?).

I thought Obama did very well, especially considering that he is not typically a great debater. He sounded very poised and presidential, he didn't have a lot of vocalized pauses, and he made a lot of good points. The worst thing he did was to keep saying "I agree with John that..." But he didn't hurt himself at all.

Unfortunately, if I try to put myself in the place of an uninformed voter, I think McCain had a lot of simplistic messages that could get through. I didn't see the visuals, so I didn't get the sneering and condescension others have commented on.

I would have to say it sounded like a draw to me on the radio. And since McCain was having an awful week, a draw is good for him.

But if you consider that foreign policy is supposed to be McCain's strong suit and Obama's weakness, then Obama absolutely did what he needed to do. He was clearly well-informed and able to express a coherent point of view.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.

by desmoinesdem on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:36:05 PM EST

Re: I listened on the radio (2.00 / 1)

I tend to think that the vast majority of people don't understand much or most of what's said and don't really know who won. Public opinion is shaped in large part by what the pundits say.

So forget what could get through to the average voter, and just pay attention to what the pundits are saying. They're the ones who shape the post-debate conventional wisdom, which then gets incorporated into the lazy summaries of straight news articles, which then becomes accepted fact among the public.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:59:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I listened on the radio (none / 0)

I tend to agree, sadly, but on that playing field the McCain campaign couldn't have a bigger handicap, given their latest shenanigans. We'll see.

by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:41:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Halperin..... (2.00 / 1)

....who I think is a McCainiac, gave Obama an A-, McCain a B-, with Obama winning on all four categories--offense, defense, style and substance.

by esconded on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:37:07 PM EST

Re: Halperin..... (2.00 / 2)

Who the hell knows. I think he's trying to make up for giving last week to McCain.

When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?

by Jess81 on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 06:17:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

McCain's comments on the economy were a disaster. Ordinary Americans are worried about jobs, not the stupid earmarks! What a joke.

Jim Oberweis

by cilerder86 on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:38:44 PM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

obama makes me nervous in debates. this one was no exception. he needs more catchy soundbites. he has the lawyerly tendency to always play defense and "correct the record". i love him to pieces but sometimes i just want to say SPIT IT OUT!!

with that said...i don't know who won the debate. it feels weird that so much of the debate centered on Iraq and related issues, when that's just not what's on most people's minds right now. obama needs to polish up and absolutely blow mccain out of the water on the domestic and economic stuff in the next two debates.

let's hope mccain has a major gaffe in one of the next two that get across to undecideds what we already know-- mccain's batshit crazy and has no plan for the country!

by bluedavid on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:43:26 PM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

I agree that he needs to keep things simple and to the point. The law professor in him just seems to force him to set up an argument and make a case.

Sad actually, the candidate who can speak extemporaneously in paragraphs is the 'poor' debater.

If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.

by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:52:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

Yes, I was sort of expecting a gaffe from McCain tonight but didn't notice any. But considering the planned topic was foreign policy, I thought Obama did a good job at the end bringing the message back to what he'd do for the middle class and tying in how our present foreign policy is doing nothing to limit our domestic problems. That probably resonated well with people who stuck it out to the end.

by Mr DC on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:24:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

I find it funny that they don't have the guts to let Palin be interviewed. Nice to see Biden all over TV and no Palin... even better the nets Covering their asses by saying... "Hey we asked, they said no"

by yitbos96bb on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:47:59 PM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

O campaign should get Biden on the networks spinning from here till the VP debate. Screw stump speechafying. More people see him; the more they'll more wonder where Palin ran off to.

by vinny on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:09:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama won older voters (2.00 / 2)

50 and over according to the CNN poll 48-40; that's amazing.

58-31 over women and McCain just barely beat Obama among men.

by Blazers Edge on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:51:41 PM EST

I'm very worried about that focus group (2.00 / 1)

It looks like Dems are still having trouble getting on board with Obama.

I'm beginning to smell failure.

by Concern Troll on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:51:55 PM EST

Re: I'm very worried about that focus group (2.00 / 1)

????????????

by bluedavid on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very worried about that focus group (none / 0)

Just how many nom de plumes did you pick up, Stipes?

It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel

by Sumo Vita on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:08:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What are you talking about? (2.00 / 1)

I'm just concerned is all. I want Obama to win so bad. But it seems like it's all slipping away.

by Concern Troll on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:11:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are you talking about? (none / 0)

Just thought you were someone else, is all. Love the name - keep up the good work!

It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel

by Sumo Vita on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm very worried about that focus group (none / 0)

Check your trousers..could be failure of a different sort is the source of the odor.

Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.

by WashStateBlue on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:14:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I find that comment sexist (2.00 / 1)

by Concern Troll on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:23:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I find that comment sexist (none / 0)

Sexist? ¿Que?

by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:43:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

how disrespectful (none / 0)

by Concern Troll on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:07:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: how disrespectful (none / 0)

Certainly disrespectful, I think that was the point. But sexist? If we have muddied the distinction between sexist and disrespectful, for all their congruencies, we are headed for a bit of trouble.

by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:18:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

what's the matter with being sexy? (none / 0)

just like Sarah Palin. I admire her, is all.

by Concern Troll on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's the matter with being sexy? (none / 0)

Sexy is great, just ask Camille Paglia, she's been talking about it for years.

by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 02:25:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I find that comment sexist (2.00 / 1)

Well, I find you SEXY..you big troll you.....

Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.

by WashStateBlue on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:58:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We blew it guys (2.00 / 2)

I don't know how, but it's seemingly increasingly obvious that the country thought Obama did much better than we did.

by zonk on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:52:34 PM EST

Re: We blew it guys (none / 0)

Where are you, Utah or Alabama?

Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.

by WashStateBlue on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:15:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's what you get for being libruls. (none / 0)

You're too hard on yourselves. Chill!

It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel

by Sumo Vita on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:15:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Possibly the biggest concession of the night (none / 0)

McCain agreed that he would vote for the bailout. At least, he appeared to mumble that he would.

Will he renege on that too?

Voting against an unpopular bailout, especially if Obama votes for it, could help him tremendously.

If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.

by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:54:36 PM EST

Re: Possibly the biggest concession of the night (none / 0)

i agree. one of the scariest scenarios that i had been envisioning the past couple days is that obama goes along with the bailout, mccain stands against it and then people decide that they hate it right before the election. that could really be a gamechanger.

i'm glad to see that obama hasn't come right out and supported the plan yet, and also that mccain doesn't seem to be heading in the direction of opposition either.

although, personally, i'm starting to feel that the bailout is a pretty bad idea unless it's dramatically restructured...

by bluedavid on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:00:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

appearances can mean a lot. In the infamous Nixon/Kennedy debate radio listeners though Nixon won by a landslide, but the "appearances" on TV cemented the Kennedy win.

McCain looked.... ok, but had some bad body language, including refusing to look at Obama despite Lehrer's insistence. All Obama had to do was look good, answer safely and be confident. McCain was the expert here and he didn't shine to any extent.

McCain may or may not have eeked a small win on substance, but lost the expectations game and the image game.

He should have fired his PR people a long time ago.

by notedgeways on Fri Sep 26, 2008 at 11:59:50 PM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

i hate all the "body language" shit, but... in my experience, voters who decide late tend to be especially susceptible to that kind of stuff and tend to vote with their gut as opposed to on policy or substance. perhaps at this late stage in the game, obama racks up big bonus points for his composure.

by bluedavid on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:02:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

well that is why they decide late... by now all the policy stuff is known, or can be known easily, we are dealing with the more emotional-by-the-gut types now.

by notedgeways on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 03:25:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

The CW seems to be now, why wouldn't McCain look at Obama... hopefully, this meme goes viral and dominates the discussion over the weekend and beyond....

"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"

by LordMike on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:01:06 AM EST

At my watch party (2.00 / 1)

the consensus was: Obama did "fine", McCain eked out a win.

Then I come online to see unanimous polling in Obama's favor. And I note I'm not the only one to have this experience.

I can only assume we are victims of our partisan expectations? It's kind of baffling.

by Neef on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:10:23 AM EST

"John is right..." (2.00 / 1)

I wish Barack could hold back a little bit on the praise for McCain. There's already a McCain ad/VNR showing Barack saying "John is right about..."

by chiefscribe on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:13:20 AM EST

Re: "John is right..." (none / 0)

I disagree. McCain campaigns on bipartisanship, but then paints Obama as weak when they agree. He undermines his own message and ends up looking petty.

He's doing our work for us.

And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.

by thatpurplestuff on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 05:02:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

I disagree with your choice of "moment of the night."

I felt it was when Obama turned to McCain, looked him straight in the eye and said something to the effect of, "Tell me if I'm wrong but if bin Laden is in our sights, we take him out."

McCain is willing to follow bin Laden to the gates of hell, but won't take him out on the Pakistani border without permission? McCain didn't even address what Obama said!

John McCain smells like mothballs.

by asherrem on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:14:34 AM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 2)

I watched it...I thought it was a tie...

My girlfriend, non poltical, said McCain was awful.

I think we concentrate on the points, we ALL in our minds KNOW what Obama should say, or what we want him to say...

We KNOW when someone is lying.

McCain may have tied in our brains?

Obama seems to have won peoples hearts.

My girfriend say:

Obama looks like a President..

McCain does not....

Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.

by WashStateBlue on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:18:31 AM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

I cant believe that I used to have some kind of respect for McCain back in 2000. This guy is as big a moron as Bush is. He may not be as evil as Cheney or a bully like Bush with the loyalty oaths and supercronyism to fellow likeminded thinkers, but the guy is pitiful. I am embarassed to see the REpublicans put up back to back morons as President.

by Pravin on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:21:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think you're right (2.00 / 2)

we're like coaches watching our team, we see all the flaws.

Everyone else just sees the game.

By the way, watching the debate with the CNN audience tracker is fascinating.

by Neef on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:23:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think you're right (2.00 / 2)

Exactly.

I hear myself saying:

Say this Obama..Nail him...He just lied...

My girfriend made the same comment one of the pundits did...

McCain was always hunched over, never looked at Obama in the face..

She said...He is hiding something, he wont look at obama...

I didn't even notice it till I watched the rerun..

She is so right...

I completely missed the body language, cause I am so into the issues....

Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.

by WashStateBlue on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think you're right (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, I am not shying about bashing Democrats for wussing out. But Obama ( I am an hour into watching it) is hitting it out of the park so far. I dont think it's even close. When McCain took a shot at Obama about bombing Pakistan, I was hoping Obama would rmeember the Bomb Bomb Iran thing McCain did and he delivered his reponse to include that nugget. Obama's won this thing handily if the second half of the debate was like the first half.

by Pravin on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:59:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think you're right (none / 0)

Perfect analogy.

I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt

by fogiv on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:40:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think you're right (none / 0)

Yes! By watching that thing, I appear to be one of the few people to notice how poorly McCain did in several spots.

"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."

by vcalzone on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:58:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

EXACTLY. To people who go by feeling, not thinking, Obama kicked his ass. Oddly, that's who these debates are for. The people who don't want to hear policy.

"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."

by vcalzone on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:29:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I cant believe McCain calls himself sherriff (none / 0)

The audacity that the main proponent of Deregulation is talking about himself like he is a sherriff in charge of keeping Wall Street bad guys in check.

by Pravin on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:20:07 AM EST

Even Luntz says Obama won (none / 0)

Man, this is incredible; McCain couldn't even win on his own turf.

by Blazers Edge on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:24:41 AM EST

Obama won (2.00 / 1)

This is the reverse of Bush - Kerry, where Kerry outperformed Bush and a lot of people thought Bush won.

Obama ran even, or slightly behind McCain but that was a big win for Obama I think, given the major topic.

I think Obama is playing safe. I think he is up big, he knows it, and he isn't going to risk anythign that could blow it. He treated McCain tonight almost like a dumb coworker. He humored him.

by RichardFlatts on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:26:14 AM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

I am watching the replay. To me, Obama is looking clearly superior in the first half hour.

by Pravin on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:26:17 AM EST

Obama was much better against McCain (none / 0)

than against Hillary, thought the non-precondition thing really hurt, I think. That whole thing was just said to please the far left and make him more a "dove" as opposed to Hillary the "hawk." Obama seemed to be on defense a little more, but its not like McCain did anything groundbreaking.

by Lakrosse on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:31:09 AM EST

McCain screwed that up though (none / 0)

he should have crushed Obama on that point (I disagree with him slightly on the preconditions thing but I could be persuaded) by bringing up the fact that Biden, his own running mate, bashed him for making the comment. However, McCain didn't do that and started smiling weirdly and awkwardly.

McCain had his chances to blow Obama out of the water on preconditions and the surge and fell pretty flat on those two points. It seemed that McCain was more ginned up for the economy and seemed to underestimate Obama on foreing policy.

by Blazers Edge on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:34:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain screwed that up though (none / 0)

You know what killed McCain and what was clearly something his prep people didn't take into account? McCain's strongest moments... his jokes, his barbs, his emotional moments... have been playing to an audience. He threw out laugh lines and, by design, received silence. That seemed to really rattle him after awhile.

"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."

by vcalzone on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:40:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm surprised McCain didn't play (2.00 / 1)

the POW card more explicitly; I suppose that earns him points with me that he didn't go down that route but that is his strongest weapon, his own bio.

Unless Palin "beats" Biden (which is extremely possible unless we can somehow raise her expectations), McCain could be down 8-10 points by next Thursday.

by Blazers Edge on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:47:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

that's a good point... (2.00 / 1)

he's used to friendly town halls where he gets a lot of positive feedack to keep him going.

Our Moment Is Now

by mboehm on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:59:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

its no wonder why he wanted to skip (2.00 / 1)

the debate. They were unprepared, because all McCain does is talk about being a POW, never the issues other than pork barrel spending, which line he over used again

by Lakrosse on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:47:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

I didn't have a horse in this race. I thought that when each candidate talked about the issues they got a message across. When McCain called Obama names, he did not seem to help himself.

However, those early polls seem to have lost track of the core questions:

Who did you support now, before the debate?
Who did you support now, after the debate?

I am reminded of the "Who do you think will be the stronger leader?" question, while failing to ask "Do you think 'strong leader' is a desirable or an undesirable trait in a President?"

by phillies on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:37:09 AM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

Perception is reality.

If the headlines say in the morning

"Polls say obama won"

That is all she wrote.

We are all SOOOO damn close, too close.

We have ALL already made up our minds, which means that is where we judge.

Those who haven't are looking for something in their guts....

Congradulations to Barack Obama and his debate team.

They must know something I don't.

Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.

by WashStateBlue on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:37:57 AM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 1)

When McCain used his opposition to torture as a reason to back his maverick image, Obama should have told him :so why was your own VP pick and your speakers at your convention making fun of the DEmocrats for caring about torture?

McCain - Senile old fool.

by Pravin on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:39:41 AM EST

Boring (1.00 / 1)

2 lame candidates. Anyones else agree? Am I living in the twilight zone? Can't image how either won- both were seriously boring.

by easyE on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:43:24 AM EST

Am I living in the twilight zone? (2.00 / 1)

Yes, but not the classic 60s show written by Rod Serling...

you are stuck in the mediocre remake instead.

Which is kind of sad and tragic for you....

Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.

by WashStateBlue on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:46:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boring (2.00 / 3)

Gotta be hard for ya. Knowing that you're one month away from being proven irrelevant. Tell Larry Johnson and Alegre that the clock is ticking.

"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."

by vcalzone on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:51:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Surge bullshit (none / 0)

Michael Ware explains very clearly why the surge thing is bullshit.
All obama has to say is this " no shit, the surge works. But for how long? You can send 1000 cops and stop crime in most neighborhoods in the US. but is that going kill crime forever? NOO!!"

You send more soldiers, you get more results. But at what cost?

And even if you ignore that, would you trust the person who was possibly right on one little aspect of the war - the surge- over a guy who wouldn't take you into a stupid war in the first place? That's like preferring a manager who made one good move in one inning of a baseball game to a guy who had a brilliant game plan for most of the game.

by Pravin on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 12:47:05 AM EST

Obama Did Alright with Surge Issue (none / 0)

He explained his vote.

He cast McCain as living in the past.

He could have elaborated on the line "No one is talking about failure" explaining in more detail how he intends to provide the political means for Iraq to begin functioning independently.

He could have then called McCain out on having no plan for winning.

by vinny on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:21:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Very impressive debate peformance by Obama (2.00 / 3)

I dont know how some of you think Obama was just OK. Gore, Lieberman, Kerry or Edwards did not approach this level of excellence in any of their debates in 2000 and 2004.

Obama is a different man from the guy we saw in the primariy debates.

I give Obama an A- for this debate.

by Pravin on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:04:35 AM EST

Re: Very impressive debate peformance by Obama (none / 0)

As did Halperin. And he's one to keep an eye on.

"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."

by vcalzone on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:09:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very impressive debate peformance by Obama (none / 0)

I'm with you on Obama's 'most improved player' status. I don't nkow of many other posters here whom I'm confident has actually watched all twenty-something of the previous primary debates. It's taken us awhile but we've come a long way, and it shows.

by Shaun Appleby on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:22:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No Offense (none / 0)

O played a lot of D, and spent most of his time swatting things back, and he did a fair job at that.

by vinny on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:42:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (2.00 / 3)

I think we felt Obama didn't do as well as we hoped because we are mostly high-information people following the issues. Over and over again, I was saying "He needs to fight back on that statement with this killer comeback.!" but most viewers don't obsess about a lot of the details and don't even know those killer comebacks exist.

Apparently Obama did just fine at showing he knows the foreign policy stuff and wasn't afraid to challenge McCain on specifics. Also, despite what I thought at first, I think McCain hurt himself with his constant refrain about how Obama just doesn't understand a subject when the audience is watching Obama clearly demonstrate that he does know the subject.

by anoregonreader on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:09:43 AM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

Right. We would like Obama to come on as a fiery progressive, but this is aimed at undecideds and Independents. They hear strong disagreement, especially ideologically, as "politics" - which they view as bad. I don't understand their thinking, but that seems to be how it goes. Based on this debate, they should see Obama as knowledgeable, assertive to the right degree, and Presidential. I hope.

by DeanOR on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

and still...no Palin (none / 0)

yet Biden is everywhere. It's like they cloned the guy.

Look, even if you have a lame VP, you're not supposed to act like it. If she's THIS bad, that she can't be allowed to do her job, McCain is in a world of hurt - debates notwithstanding.

by Neef on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:10:29 AM EST

Re: and still...no Palin (none / 0)

Guess she's joined Fiorina and Rothschild in quarantine.

It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel

by Sumo Vita on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:21:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and still...no Palin (2.00 / 1)

Dare someone mention a bus?

by rfahey22 on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 02:10:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What I don't get (none / 0)

This "McCain Was Right" thing. Are people not allowed to agree anymore? Where I come from, refusing to find common ground makes you a stubborn ass.

I mean, if McCain says "I think we shouldn't bomb Nebraska", what is Obama supposed to say? Sometimes there are right and wrong answers.

"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."

by vcalzone on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:27:53 AM EST

Fox focus group gave the win to Obama too. (none / 0)

http://mccombover.wordpress.com/2008/09/ 27/fox-news-focus-group-obama-wins-debat e/

by Bush Bites on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 01:48:08 AM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

Important thing to remember:

A "draw" in a debate on foreign policy with John McCain is actually a win for Obama.

by bob5540 on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 02:03:17 AM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

I just wanted to add that maybe the coolest part of the night, from my computer speakers, was when Obama whipped out his dueling arm bracelet. Here McCain gives this big story about how we must achieve "victory" in Iraq, whatever that means, because he received a bracelet from a soldier's family and that's what they wanted him to do. At that time, I was sure that McCain would score a few cheap points and get Obama on the defensive. Lo and behold, Obama whips out a bracelet given to him by a different family, who asked him to end the war. That was just an amazing coincidence and totally defused McCain's anecdote.

by rfahey22 on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 02:08:31 AM EST

Obama wrong on Venezuela (none / 0)

Since when the phuk is Venezuela a rogue state.

They've had more free elections than we could ever dream of having.

BO hardly helps the cause of liberalism by adopting, wholesale, lies of the right.

Pathetic.

Obama was for single payer before he came out against it.

by neaguy on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 02:21:49 AM EST

Re: Son Of Post-Debate Thread (none / 0)

Yes, John McBush is a LIAR!! Almost all his adds are lies and If you watched the debate... you as I seen, that he lied about 12 times on his so called facts. That why he couldnt look Obama in the eyes, becouse he was lieing about him…. its a known fact that when a person lies to you they will not look at you. Also he never looked at the camera, not only was he lieing about Obama he lies to the American people. In Johns world its not America first its campaign first!! What a looser. As a Republican I can say this man is a bad pick! Im voting for the honest one, satan is the author of lies and he can be so convincing if you are blind.

by jtred31 on Sat Sep 27, 2008 at 04:23:07 AM EST

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