What Makes People Vote Republican?

(cross posted at kickin it with cg)

Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies?  Jonathan Haidt, an associate professor of moral psychology at the University of Virginia, examines why.  With the seemingly return of the culture wars and general hate being flung from across both sides of the aisle in recent days, this essay might be intriguing to some.

For my dissertation research, I made up stories about people who did things that were disgusting or disrespectful yet perfectly harmless. For example, what do you think about a woman who can't find any rags in her house so she cuts up an old American flag and uses the pieces to clean her toilet, in private? Or how about a family whose dog is killed by a car, so they dismember the body and cook it for dinner? I read these stories to 180 young adults and 180 eleven-year-old children, half from higher social classes and half from lower, in the USA and in Brazil. I found that most of the people I interviewed said that the actions in these stories were morally wrong, even when nobody was harmed. Only one group--college students at Penn--consistently exemplified Turiel's definition of morality and overrode their own feelings of disgust to say that harmless acts were not wrong. (A few even praised the efficiency of recycling the flag and the dog).

This research led me to two conclusions. First, when gut feelings are present, dispassionate reasoning is rare. In fact, many people struggled to fabricate harmful consequences that could justify their gut-based condemnation. I often had to correct people when they said things like "it's wrong because... um...eating dog meat would make you sick" or "it's wrong to use the flag because... um... the rags might clog the toilet." These obviously post-hoc rationalizations illustrate the philosopher David Hume's dictum that reason is "the slave of the passions, and can pretend to no other office than to serve and obey them." This is the first rule of moral psychology: feelings come first and tilt the mental playing field on which reasons and arguments compete. If people want to reach a conclusion, they can usually find a way to do so. The Democrats have historically failed to grasp this rule, choosing uninspiring and aloof candidates who thought that policy arguments were forms of persuasion.

The second conclusion was that the moral domain varies across cultures. Turiel's description of morality as being about justice, rights, and human welfare worked perfectly for the college students I interviewed at Penn, but it simply did not capture the moral concerns of the less elite groups--the working-class people in both countries who were more likely to justify their judgments with talk about respect, duty, and family roles. ("Your dog is family, and you just don't eat family.") From this study I concluded that the anthropologist Richard Shweder was probably right in a 1987 critique of Turiel in which he claimed that the moral domain (not just specific rules) varies by culture. Drawing on Shweder's ideas, I would say that the second rule of moral psychology is that morality is not just about how we treat each other (as most liberals think); it is also about binding groups together, supporting essential institutions, and living in a sanctified and noble way.

When Republicans say that Democrats "just don't get it," this is the "it" to which they refer. Conservative positions on gays, guns, god, and immigration must be understood as means to achieve one kind of morally ordered society. When Democrats try to explain away these positions using pop psychology they err, they alienate, and they earn the label "elitist." But how can Democrats learn to see--let alone respect--a moral order they regard as narrow-minded, racist, and dumb?

In today's New York Times, In No Laughing Matter Judith Warner adds:

Haidt has conducted research in which liberals and conservatives were asked to project themselves into the minds of their opponents and answer questions about their moral reasoning. Conservatives, he said, prove quite adept at thinking like liberals, but liberals are consistently incapable of understanding the conservative point of view. "Liberals feel contempt for the conservative moral view, and that is very, very angering. Republicans are good at exploiting that anger," he told me in a phone interview.

Haidt also explores the meaning of morality and describes his experiences in a Hindu community in the early 90's, in which a he witnessed a hierarchical society with clearly defined gender and class roles. This gave him insight into why some in his own country might be attracted to similarly ordered social structures.

It really is a good read and I think helpful to framing the conversation in the upcoming weeks.



Display:


tips for a great read? (2.00 / 15)


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:49:41 PM EST

Re: tips for a great read? (2.00 / 1)

Great article - a timely and relevant read. Rec'd.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:49:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why do they vote GOP? LIES.. (2.00 / 1)

Millions of lies, built one on another, into a somewhat convincing, but extremely fragile alternative reality. The best thing we can do is puncture the lies with truth.

Show them the unvarnished ugliness of the GOP - that their leaders are really stabbing them in the back every chance they get. That the America they are voting for is one that WON'T include them.


public option=not affordable for middle. It cant cover all affordably, google adverse selection for why
by architek on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:20:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tips for a great read? (none / 0)

This was diaried at DKos several days ago but the diary was deleted. I don't know why.


by MNPundit on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 05:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tips for a great read? (1.00 / 2)

What makes people vote Republican?  In 2008, it is Obama and his divisive politics.


by trixta on Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 01:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 1)

Nonsense. If cons could think like liberals they'd BE liberals.

What do they lack in order to do so?

Liberal
a.  Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded

Cons can't think like liberals any more than earthworms can think like humans.


GOP=9/11TM
by ObamaBiden on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:01:03 PM EST

i think you may have proved the... (2.00 / 5)

point of the article.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 3)

Considering roughly a third of this country to be sub-human for their beliefs isn't exactly "tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded"


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 2)

So much for the ridiculous notion that cons can think like liberals but liberals can't think like cons.

I've just demonstrated that I can be intolerant and narrow minded toward them at will. But I defy any con to be tolerant and open minded toward liberals at any time. It just doesn't fit what they are.....

Thinking like a con is always effortless because all it takes is kneejerk hostility. Thinking like a liberal oftentimes takes patience and perseverance.


GOP=9/11TM
by ObamaBiden on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:33:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 4)

I think most self-regarded liberals approve of tolerance, acceptance and broad-mindedness in principle. In practice, a more visceral reaction takes over, to those thoughts that threaten the foundations of our beliefs.

Try questioning the merits of any long-regarded or fondly held mainstream liberal or progressive beliefs, and you'll hear several jaws hitting the floor at once - on this forum alone. I did. I've emerged sadder but wiser for it.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sumo. (2.00 / 1)

another one of my favourite comments ever here.  and i TOTALLY agree.  you just whip them off, dontcha?


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sumo. (2.00 / 1)

Thanks, CG. You know, I wonder if the one defining difference is the kind of open introspection we're engaged in here. Something tells me you'd be hard-pressed to find this on redstate.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:20:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What's interesting though (2.00 / 4)

is that liberals question themselves. We can have this discussion about liberal narrowmindedness because we're liberals. Conservative conversation, in my opinion, is not nearly as open to criticism of the group.

It's not hard to talk like a conservative. I have conversations every day with people who think Bush is getting a bad rap. None of them would suspect I am a liberal (although they'd probably assume it). Praise family. Praise America. Praise hard work. Police? Doing a great job, the cities have become disgusting. Soldiers? wow, easy one, WE NEED TO WIN. And so on. There's a list, and once you know it, you need only repeat it. I do it out of social necessity, not out of any inherent contempt for the viewpoint, but speaking conservative is not some ethereal undefinable task.

Thinking like one, is beyond me. And I'd seriously question if conservatives can think like us, or whether they just talk like us.


by Neef on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:22:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good point (2.00 / 2)

To see if it is right, one could post a similar diary at Red State asking the members to consider Conservative narrow-mindedness, and see if it generates the kind of thoughtful discussion you see here. (My guess is it would be troll rated into oblivion.)


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:32:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

More nonsense.


GOP=9/11TM
by ObamaBiden on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:09:22 PM EST

I personally think (2.00 / 1)

that people get too caught up thinking all Democrats are flag burning non pledging anti-patriots. While the radical side has a few of those, they fail to realize that most Democrats honor America. Its that the Republican party seems to have a monopoly on what patriotism and dissent is. Unfortunately, Democrats haven't always been able to crack or, or aren't able to crack it, in today's case. There's a reason why McCain uses the word "American" wherever he goes: he's doing what Mark Penn told Hillary to do. Obama isn't the only target of this, as Dukakis got slammed for vetoing a bill which mandated pledging allegiance.


by Lakrosse on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:11:53 PM EST

Re: I personally think (2.00 / 1)

It's very, very scary, the way the GOP has chosen to frame us. Just look at that guy who massacred a church. That isn't isolated, it's going to happen again. Because the people trying to stay in power never thought it would harm anything to foster hate as long as they didn't advocate violence.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:46:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think overlook (2.00 / 1)

the distinct possibility that most Americans ARE actually fascists to some degree.

Today I was talking around here about what happened in Texas with the prisoners in Galveston. My cousin shook his head and said; "that's terrible, that sounds like something Mussolini would do."

Back home though, I was trying to outrage my friends (all liberals) by sending them the news via e-mail and it just didn't work. A cuople of them e-mailed me back. One of the most shocking was;

"Good, some good can come from this disaster"

People who vote DEMOCRAT, people voting FOR Obama, are thinking that.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:01:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 3)

Highly recced
Highly Mojo'd

(Full disclosure, if a diary doesn't concern what's-her-name, I'm reccing it with abundant mojo)


Dunno about the rest of you, but I'm only a little ways through this bowl of popcorn.
by QTG on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:23:04 PM EST

Great point. (2.00 / 5)

It's the same type of thinking that can (rightly) condemn terrorists for killing 3,000 innocent civilians, but excuse the U.S. military's much higher death toll of innocent civilians because "they weren't targeting civilians" and it is "collateral damage." The same thinking that talks about a "culture of life" but supports the death penalty. The same thinking that condemns Bill Clinton for lying about sex, but will excuse John McCain for lying about Obama supporting "comprehensive sex education for kindergartners," because John McCain was a POW and they just KNOW he's honest. The same type of thinking that just KNOWS gay marriage is wrong but when asked to explain why they can only suggest it threatens "the very institution of marriage." etc. etc.


by Mystylplx on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:29:41 PM EST

its a refreshing change no? (none / 0)

and thanks for the rec/mojo.  

ive found that empathy goes a long way in life - no if we could find a way to harness it...


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:29:44 PM EST

Easy! (2.00 / 1)

A desire for small government, corny patriotism, and conservative culturalism.


by CommentsOfReason on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:35:10 PM EST

Re: Easy! (none / 0)

Eh - I am not buying the small gov't part anymore. They are gonna have to prove that one before they can claim it.

On a higher level, what seems to drive Conservative thinking is intolerance to change, insufficient empathy, and indifference to inequality and injustice.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As my republican coworkers put it (none / 0)

They just want government to go away, they don't want homosexuals flamboyantly running romped, and they don't think Obama is enough of a patriot because he didn't hold his hand over his heart when the nation anthem was being played.
You got to understand 80-90% of people are rather simple, and they cling to simple concepts.
Issues such as gays in the military, universal health care, tax hikes for corporations that ship jobs overseas, and Stem Cell research are just too much for them to comprehend.    
by CommentsOfReason on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:27:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 2)

It also has a lot to do with what Obama put so stupidly earlier this year. They don't believe government will help them. They genuinely don't think that government has any effect on their life. Most of the people who espouse this worldview tend to be baby boomers or slightly younger, and I think most of it can be directly attributed to the combo of Nixon and Carter. Both people who promised change, but disillusioned tons of Americans.

So, again, hate to bring up such a painful point of the campaign, but they DO focus exclusively on moral values and security at that point. When you genuinely think government ain't gonna do shit to help you, you just want a government that doesn't even try.

Making people believe that we can help them is the only way to get these folks back. Obama ALMOST did it. So close.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:42:12 PM EST

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

You sound like you think it's over.


by Mystylplx on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:44:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

In deep red states? Hell yes! Those polls in GA and NC are not flukes! We can still take FL, OH, CO and NM, though, to name a few. We'll keep PA and MI when all is said and done. I really think in the end, Florida will be the key to the puzzle. Colorado and New Mexico will be the safeties.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:49:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

Look, Palin's already flaming out. She'll keep the base super-excited (unless Obama is smart enough to scare the shit out of people with a Daisy-style ad), but everyone else is going to realize she's a very cool person that is nowhere near ready to be VP or President.

And Obama's new tough message, if repeated daily in tandem with the Clintons, Biden and anyone else he can get on board, will succeed. That lobbyist ad is good, and this new "liar" label is the kind of thing that wins elections. It's a rare convergence of smear tactics and truth.

But it all will hinge on the debate. He needs to study John McCain during the Saddleback forum. Make sure that he is in battle mode, not "take a knee, boys" mode.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:55:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

I agree. Truth be known, I'd like Obama to come right out and say, "John McCain is a liar." He'd catch a lot of flack for it, but it would certainly put the media spotlight back on him and his "defense" of his statement would be further, more specific, attacks on McCain.

But I suspect that anyone who hasn't already realized that Palin is nowhere near ready to be VP just isn't ever going to realize that. Some people just aren't rational thinkers. (see the diary above)


by Mystylplx on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

To be fair, as George Lakoff points out, NONE of us are rational thinkers.  Ask yourself your reaction to potential restrictions on abortion, if that's a really important issue to you (it is to me).  Do you reject partial birth abortion bans because you really want women in the 3rd trimester getting abortions, or is it because a restriction represents the possibility of a slippery slope?  I, for one, have a visceral emotional reaction to just about any restrictions on abortion.  It's not rational, it's not reasonable, it just is.

If I was going to be really rational about it, I'd espouse infanticide up until age 3 or 4 (or whatever science would tell us), because I define "valuable human life" as conscious and self-conscious.  That's the same reason I'm fine with doctor-assisted suicide and I am ok with pulling the plug on coma patients.  But I have a visceral emotional reaction against infanticide, so I have to make up a post-hoc rationalization around the "likely potential of consciousness" or some such thing.  Not rational, just is.

Let's not pretend like we are somehow super-rational and all conservatives are irrational.  


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:43:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Different take (none / 0)

I take Lakoff as saying we are rational but that what is labeled rational by liberals regarding political deliberations is not what occurs in the real world.


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:55:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Different take (none / 0)

We are perhaps both right.  I'm reading his book right now.  He argues that 98% of our decision-making is unconscious, so that even if the other 2% is supremely rational, we are primarily instinct-driven beings.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:50:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Different take (none / 0)

I'll be interested to hear about your conclusions when you have finished reading the book.

In a sense, what he and we mean might turn on the sense of rational we adopt.  For instance, I do not equate unconscious to not rational.  Quite the contrary, as I alluded to in this comment on Armstrong's recent diary about Lakoff:
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/9/12/6 842/84682/24#24

Highly self-reflective deliberation is not required for decision-making to be rational, especially given that so much of our decision making is a function of (or heavily influence by) mental modules that operate across a large number of social and environmental regularities we confront as human beings, including unpredictability and limited information.  While I am not wholly on board, my view is influenced by the works of Cosmides and Tooby and other evolutionary psychologists.


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:57:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Different take (none / 0)

Interesting.  I tend to believe that instinctive actions are not rational, though not necessarily irrational, either.  Perhaps "unrational."  But my point is that however we define "rational," we (as progressives/liberals/humans) need to realize that appealing to conscious "self-reflective deliberation" (as you eloquently put it) is not enough.  We need to realize, as Lakoff states, that conscious thought is a very small part of how we make decisions.  We need to appeal to empathy and a sense of fairness, without also appearing weak and whining.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:56:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Amelie for President (none / 0)

If you have not seen Amelie, a charming French film, I urge you to see it.  Or in the alternative, you can watch Sarah Palin's campaign for President.

The only thing about Palin is that, though she is cute and naive, she is far from innocent.  She can weave a little tale that may seem harmless (ok, so the plane wasn't sold on Ebay, but it's still a cute line).

I think that Sarah Palin as Amelie would make a very nice movie.  All of the self-important, highly educated scholars who advise the President would be out.  All of the scruffy moose hunters from Alaska would be in.

They would face some terrible crisis in Central Asia or the Middle East and the scruffy moose hunters would find some completely bizarre solution that confounds America's enemies and saves the world.  We then get all the oil that we need.

Isn't that a nice story?  I hope someone makes the movie.

Now, please call your local Obama campaign office and volunteer to call or walk beginning tomorrow. On the screen its a comedy.  In real life it's a disaster.


by smoker1 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:05:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

She is not flaming out. Notice that the Xian right rhetoric is toned down.

People in the midwest believe she is pro-choice because she let her daughter make "her own decision". To a rational person that sounds pro-choice. The hard core women-haters who long for stacked bodies of women and old-fashioned wards filled with "bad girls" slowly dying of toxic side effects know she opposes contraception and abortion.  They are excited. But the Republicans are communicating to the low information voter that they are pro-choice. Notice her nomination coincided with a startling decline in discourse about religion in public life.

People vote republican because they believe the lies: small government! (not gov't in your bedroom), good economy! (hah!), efficient healthcare from the market (double hah!).

Or people vote republican because they are fascist. But the second group cannot win without the first.

The base votes republican because they get red meat and real policy change. The base on the left  fails to vote because we get, well Nancy Pelosi giving Mr 27% everything he asks for.


by redwagon on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:31:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

Well, what exactly can we do about that? Look, this would have been an issue no matter what. If you're going to argue that people are going to refuse to listen to her actual positions, that's really irrational. Voters vote low-info until the election. And they only believe Palin is pro-choice unless we talk about it. If we raise the question and force them to answer, then we answer the question.

This whole business about "people can flat out lie and nobody gives a shit" isn't true and it never has been any more than "negative ads don't work". Republicans have used lying against us in every single election since 1994! Why would that not be something we should pursue?


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 03:37:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

If she's playing herself as pro-choice, then we attack her for being a liar. If she highlights her strong record of being anti-abortion, then we win. What's so hard about that?


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 03:38:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 2)

Yeah. Had a discussion over at Zogby forums about the possibility (not serious) of splitting into two countries. Since blue states pay most of the taxes anyway, and subsidize red states, the Blue states would have less taxes. We could even let them in to do our low-paying jobs, go to our schools, get medical care, and give them drivers licences... just so long as they were not allowed to vote. Of course since there are blue people in red states and vice versa, we might want to organize a housing exchange program. Do you suppose we'd have to build a fence to stop illegal immigration?


by Mystylplx on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Build a fence (none / 0)

like the berlin wall?


"There have existed, in every age and every country, two distinct orders of men - the lovers of freedom and the devoted advocates of power"
by Classical Liberal on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:49:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

There have been times that I wouldn't mind this.  The real logistical problem is how do you get California, Washington, Oregon, and probably Nevada and New Mexico (and Colorado?) connected geographically to the Northeast?  In reality, you'd probably have to split into 3 countries.  Or we could just join Canada!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbfuckist an


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:46:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

yep, the "United States of Canada" and "Jesusland"


by slynch on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I wonder (none / 0)

Do you think the common people will ever have a desire to trust and be excited about government again?
Most people just want to watch TV, and pretend that there is nothing to worry about.
The Republicans have always made it easy for the common American; vote for us, we'll chant USA, and we won't raise taxes.
People have to care what it happening in their neighborhoods before they will ever vote Democratic.
by CommentsOfReason on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:53:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

I do. Polls are backing me up, trends continue to show Obama losing.


by MNPundit on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 05:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 2)

I'm afraid I don't buy Obama's reasoning here. It's a charitable (and politically correct) view, but not quite accurate. Admittedly, I have nothing but MY gut to back me up on this claim.

I loved the "Reason is slave to the passions" line, and I think it's probably one very good explanation of the rural vote phenomenon. Further, the conservative-leaning mindset is more likely to choose the rural setting to begin with; is more likely to prefer the company of like-minded peers over the diversity of urban living.  

Factor in the power of societal influence on those ideas and principles that shape ones philosophies, and it should be no surprise that the rural voter is conservative. It's the gut and the passions that are at work here, not reason.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:48:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

You're starting from here and moving backwards in logic, not trying to start from the past and moving forward.

Ask any rural voter about what they think government will do to improve their lives, they will LAUGH IN YOUR FACE. The fact that they live with people who have the same worldview and haven't expanded is beside the point. The question isn't whether they have a socially conservative point of view, it's how that view became the entire basis of their vote.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:53:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

An insightful and revealing take (2.00 / 2)

One of my friends is...well...a wingnut is the best way to describe it. We still have heated conversations about whether Bush sucked. This is a highly intelligent young man, well educated - he just has that moral core that makes him believe in things I think are comic books.

For example, when I say "A True American Hero", it implicitly has quotes around it. I believe in many forms of heroism, and find that particular strain to be more caricature than fact.

My friend says True American Hero without quotes. He means it, he knows it sounds a little silly, but he means it.

This is going to sound harsh but - I don't think we can ever "win over" people like that. I don't really want to. True American Heroes are a myth to me, and I can no more believe in them than my secular friends can suddenly believe in Jesus. I can't imbue my view of the the flag with religious symbolism, anymore then I can emulate a Catholic's reverence of Mass.

The two groups see the world in fundamentally different ways, and as I am quite happy with my world view, I'm fine with simply co-existing. If elections didn't require their cooperation, we would never be having this conversation. We need them, now, but that's as far as I go.


by Neef on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:02:06 PM EST

Part of the problem (2.00 / 1)

is at leas 47%-48% of the country thinks like your friend, so if we can win them over, we are going to always have a hard time winning.

It's not a coincidence a Democrat hasn't won the majority of the popular vote since 1976 and only once before since 1944.

If Obama does win this year, he'll probably have to do be than any Democrat since Roosevelt except Lyndon Johnson.

I saw something recently that said conservatives can think like liberals, and thus know how to beat them, and liberals don't know how to think like conservatives. I think we do, we just don't want to, because we laugh at conservativism and dismiss it as crap. We refuse to admit it's strength and power over the American people.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part of the problem (2.00 / 3)

because we laugh at conservativism and dismiss it as crap. We refuse to admit it's strength and power over the American people.

I think the problem goes deeper than that.

We treat the fundamentals of our thought processes as absolute and indisputable truths. And we react with disgust to conclusions that aren't based on these. We may not frame our opinions in religious terms, but there's plenty of prejudice and moral opprobrium to go around.

Sounds familiar?

If there's one thing I've learned from the primaries, it's that we're not all that different from the "other" side when it comes to narrow-mindedness and prejudice (no, this is not about race). Reason is indeed the slave of the passions!
 


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:12:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part of the problem (2.00 / 1)

> We treat the fundamentals of our thought processes as absolute and indisputable truths.

Yes! Liberals have thought this way for over 200 years. Here is an example:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes (2.00 / 1)

and guess what, despite the fact that you just quoted the founding document of our nation, like 48% of the country think it's some sort of wussie liberal commie talking point.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:16:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part of the problem (2.00 / 3)

Yet conservatives could lay claim to these just as easily. From the religious basis to our founding tenets:

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

to small government, and lower taxes:

that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

From the Iraq war as a moral imperative:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,

to the Focus on National Security:

as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Finally, the constitution is clearly neither absolute nor indisputable, as evidenced by the amendments.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:17:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part of the problem (2.00 / 2)

Of course they will claim it, but their claims are bunk.

> religious basis to our founding tenets

Did you notice, the use of "Creator" instead of "God" or "Jesus"? That is not accidental. The Declaration uses terms of Natural Law, not religious terms per se, and certainly not Christian terms. Jefferson and many of the other founders were Deists, Unitarians, and agnostics. In a world immersed in religious dogma, they were steering away from a dogmatically religious society. After all, they were breaking away from a country that believed in the divine right of kings.

> small government, and lower taxes

First, I am not convinced Conservatives really believe in small government. Second, you seem to be saying that lower taxes is the equivalent of Liberty, which would probably surprise the founders. They were not opposed to taxation, just to taxation without representation.

> Iraq war as a moral imperative

Wow, that is a totally dishonest reading of that passage. The passage would justify the Iraqi's overthrowing Saddam by themselves if that had happened, and it probably justifies the insugency against the American occupation forces. It sure as hell does not justify the invasion.

> Focus on National Security

Conservatives do not own national security as an issue. That is just their spin, aided by a willing media.

> constitution is clearly neither absolute nor indisputable

I am not sure what this has to do with my comment, which did not even quote from the Constitution, but from the Declaration of Independence.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:27:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part of the problem (2.00 / 1)

Of course their claims are bunk - and clearly I need a lesson in civics - but my point is that most people don't derive their feelings based on the intentions of our founding fathers. Ergo, waving the Declaration of Independence is unlikely to make them come to a sudden realization of the error of their ways.

Further, rarely do they have the desire, need or ability for the kind of introspection required to develop opinions beyond the gut instinct level. Which is why you're more likely to hear about the 2nd amendment than civil rights from the wingnut gang: the conclusions are reached first, the justifications follow.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:14:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part of the problem (2.00 / 1)

Mojo for your civics humility. We could all benefit from a civics refresher once in a while.

Your point about the Conservative gut-level approach to thinking about these issues is well taken. As Mark Twain said, most people take their politics and religion second hand, and with little reflection. Truth to tell, a distressingly large portion of people with Liberal leanings do the same thing.

On a larger level, what I see in the American political journey, from the mid 1700s straight through to the present, is a struggle between enlightenment and pre-enlightenment thinking. It is disturbing to read diaries like this one, and the recent one that discussed Lakeoff's latest musings. They seem to almost validate the unenlightened point of view, or at least accept it as an inevitable part of human thinking. But our entire nation is an experiment to see if that kind of emotional thinking can be overcome by rationality.

At the risk of piling on too many civics lessons, here is this from our first and greatest Republican President:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.


OK, we are not in a shooting war at the moment, but the stakes are the same. Are we at the tail end of a short experiment with enlightened, democratic, republican government? Or is the long, long history of domination by a hereditary elite finally coming to a close?


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:54:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part of the problem (none / 0)

We treat the fundamentals of our thought processes as absolute and indisputable truths. And we react with disgust to conclusions that aren't based on these. We may not frame our opinions in religious terms, but there's plenty of prejudice and moral opprobrium to go around.

With all due respect, I must disagree.  I always considered the Republicans success, in part, due to their rigid adherence to a simple, conservative orthodox: More government bad, less government good.  Evil must be confronted and defeated at all costs.  Taxes bad: they take money out of your pocket.

Democrats, on the other hand, allow for much more nuance and gray area on both social issues as well as the role of government.  We don't have a clear message to sell, and I think we are going to find one (or reframe one) if we are going to hope to be consistently successful at the presidential level.


by MMR2 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:16:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well they could have just as easily (2.00 / 1)

rejected  those simple conservative orthodox values, but they don't. People like less government, evil to be confronted and less taxes. What's our orthodox; big government, lots of taxes and talk to enemies? It may be a smart policy, but it's not going to sell out there.

Like I said earlier, it's entirely possible Americans ARE actually at least a little fascist, and the only way to defeat it is for the GOP to defeat themselves.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:25:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part of the problem (none / 0)

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. My comment was an observation - we're not as pure and unbiased as some of us believe. I do agree that that simplicity sells better than nuance. We don't have a clear message because rarely has there been any single principle or set of principles binding us - other than our opposition to the conservative world view. I'm not sure that's going to change anytime soon.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:22:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part of the problem (none / 0)

I was disagreeing with your original assertion that "we treat the fundamentals of our thought processes as absolute and indisputable truths."  As your reply seems to indicate, unlike Republicans, we actually don't operate under any absolute and indisputable truths--and our thought processes tend to disavow fundamentals, while favoring nuance.  If anything, the ONE thing that has become absolute/fundamental, as you imply, is our rabid partisanship and opposition to anything conservative.


by MMR2 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well said, my friend (none / 0)

That's why after years of proudly calling myself a liberal I no longer identify as one.


by lombard on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:34:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Honestly? (none / 0)

I think we have as much chance of winning them over as <insert religion here> has of converting you. The difference is that fundamental, in my opinion. The premises and tenets are wildly different for both sides. A religious conversion isn't a terrible metaphor for it.

Now, conversions do happen, lots of them, all the time. But not to populations en masse, and certainly not on demand.


by Neef on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:29:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part of the problem (none / 0)

Clinton's reelection and Gore's "loss". That is twice I know of. You are completely making shit up

Popular vote     47,402,357     39,198,755
1996 Clinton wins

Totals      50,456,062      50,996,582
2000 popular  vote, Gore wins.

Bush won in 2004, when Kerry was a polite even gutless  whiner  who made it clear to women that he would throw them under a bus to get elected. He refused to rally the base. He kept talking 'bout jesus and hunting and playing to the hard right instead of connecting with his own base. deja vu.


by redwagon on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An insightful and revealing take (2.00 / 1)

The good news, in my opinion, is that religiosity continues to decline in America.  So while people still claim to be a part of a specific religion (we have a hard time using the word "atheist"), they don't go to church or synagogue and they don't believe religious texts any more.  The next generation might be the first to at least call themselves agnostic.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:48:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Blue states vs red states (none / 0)

In red states, the south and the states of the Great Plains, the cost of living is rather low, where as the cost of living in Blue States, the west coast, New England/tri-state region, and the Great Lakes states, the cost living is much higher. Also Red States are typically mostly rural or filled primarily with small towns, where as most Blue States typically center around big cities.
People faced with high costs of living or the typical problems of big cities are usually going to vote Democratic.
by CommentsOfReason on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:27:03 PM EST

Don't miss what you never had (2.00 / 1)

A friend explained it to me this way; as long as people have a roof over their head and food on the table, they are OK living in poverty. That's because they don't miss what they've never experienced. "Values" or social issues may be more important to them. If it gets really bad where they can no longer feed their family or have a roof over their head, then they'll vote economy.


by soyousay on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:47:53 PM EST

Maybe the death of the economic left? (2.00 / 7)

Before the communist witch hunts of the fifties, and the Cold War of the fifties and sixties, it used to be possible to be a "regular guy" and a left wing populist.  Again, think Roosevelt's era.  
When that changed and anything leftist became a synonym for anti American, treasonous, I believe the former left of the Democratic party and of the country (yes Virginia, there used to be a viable left wing in this country, now where did that go to?) made a point of embracing social liberalism rather than economic populism, which was seen as too close to socialism, too close to Communism, and really bad.  

Now, if you are an economic populist you get to be left and "of the people," since you are fighting for economic equity.  However if you are a liberal fighting mostly for social causes you tend to be disruptive in a less threatening to the power structure way, but in a way that is more threatening to those very people who you would be fighting for as an economic populist.

The social issues needed to be addressed, the substantial ones certainly, civil rights, women's rights, but now, with the fear of attacking the economic status quo, we have been reduced to avoiding the big picture altogether for fear of being labeled anti American, and in the process portraying ourselves as simply gutless but socially more accommodating, Republicans.


by mady on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:55:29 PM EST

its funny... (none / 0)

but i know that the word liberal in some circles is considered dirty.  even the coinage of the term progressive reflects this IMO.  but here in canada, we have Liberal party.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:00:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: its funny... (none / 0)

Because of my background, born into a family of lefties, I've always had a problem with the word liberal.  I'm finding though that today to younger people it means left.  I don't think it ever will mean that to me, and it is not a term I will ever be that comfy with.

What also puzzles me is that many people embrace what they see as liberalism in terms of social issues, and rightly so, but are died in the wool pure hard edged pro capitalists economically.  Not sure where they fit on the political spectrum to tell the truth, and there are many.


by mady on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: its funny... (none / 0)

Progressive is essentially code for liberal among pretty hard-core lefties, I've found.  Liberal also has connotations of the first 19th Century, pro-market liberals that couldn't be more different than today's progressives.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:55:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Could not agree more (none / 0)

If I could rate this comment up a dozen times I would.

Sadly, many in our own party have played a role in the purges, then and since.  All of us in the party and progressive movements more broadly have to fight for every desirable change and defend every major achievement we can, but I do feel that major success on the economic front would open up major progress on other issues.  From the other direction we get a little of latter and almost none of the former.  The last sentence in your second paragraph is the reason and a profound summation of the dynamics.

You expressed the essence of my view on this question better than I could.  

Except that we are not all dead.


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:48:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I've been trying to say this (2.00 / 1)

and I could never explain it as well as you have.

I've seen a lot of older Republicans back home arguing that Obama will bring us "socialism"

If it makes us feel better, the response among our generation has been; "so? why is that bad?"

We're removed from the Cold War. While my earliest memory is the Challenger disaster, for many of my friends, their earliest memory was the Gulf War or the fall of Berlin Wall. We're removed from that world where anything economically left is bad.

Eventually we will be able to take back the economic populism mantra, but maybe not yet. I see this election as the point where the Cold War anti-left movement is on the cusp of being dropped out. You can tell by looking at the generation gap in this election. McCain is doing about the same or better than Bush among older voters, but Obama is running away with the youth and is doing slightly better than Kerry among those in their 30's and 40's (where I think Clinton may actually have been quite strong)

If Obama win this year, I think right wing economic principles will be dead forever and populism will begin to make a comeback...not at first, but over time.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:25:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have some issues with your (2.00 / 1)

generational frames.

I am over sixty, and overwhelmingly the people in my world, friends, colleagues, relatives are left, are life long democrats.  They may not be as left as we were in the sixties, but not one has gone to the right.  But more than a few our kids (thirty and forty somethings) and many of our younger colleagues were "Reagan" lovers.....and while some  suddenly found being independent or libertarian a way to justify their former support of right wingers, they are the people whom I think put W into office.

A few of my much older colleagues (in their seventies) are more to the right.  But my peers (fifties and sixty somethings) are hardly dominated by  the right wing mentality. Yes, I understand that you see W as one of ours....well so were Bill and Hillary my peers.  More of us are like them and maybe you see them as to the right, most of us see them as having learned some life lessons.  Our generation sanctimoniously refused to vote democratic in 1968 because we did not get our way.  So we bit off our nose to spite our face and got Nixon.  We learned the hard way.  In 1980, I was 35 and I was appalled how many younger voters (first time voters) rallied and worked for Reagan. The college near my home, where I taught courses, has a huge OBAMA coalition.  Back in 1980, we could barely get a handful of kids out to protest apartheid, to protest Reagan or his policies. Those college students are now the forty somethings.

My friends and I were disgusted.  We couldn't believe it. We were stunned. I do not know one person in my close circle of friends and relatives who voted for Reagan....and in fact to this day we blame those younger and older by a decade for his popularity.  

And while many bloggers love to blame "old white women" for Obama's failure to jump ahead, I hardly think that is anything more than spin for talking heads looking for some drama.  

None of us, unless we are pollsters, can give a view except that which comes from our own circle of friends, colleagues, co workers, relatives.  Overwhelmingly those in my circle supported Hillary and now will vote Obama, if not totally enthusiastically....still a vote is a vote.  
On my block alone, in a conservative city, six out of seven homes are supporting Obama.  Five out of those six were former Hillary supporters.  All of them are households headed by older women.  Across the street the die hard McCain supporters are one older couple (seventy plus, and three younger (fortyish couples).  Up the street there are several really elderly widows (80s, and they remember FDR).  ALL wanted to caucus for Hillary but could not (due to age).  All are voting for Obama. I know because I was precinct chair and have contacted them for voting, for support etc.

Economic populism would help us a lot....and so would universal health care.  This myth that retirees are living high on hog of our riches cracks me up.  Few of my friends have that and they only have it because they came from money and inherited it.  The rest of us, who have been working steadily since we were teens, thought we would be happily retired and enjoying our later years.  Most of us have gone back to work, at lower paying jobs, just to make ends meet.  
So, to imply that boomers support the free market does not resonate for me.


by Jjc2008 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:13:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have some issues with your (none / 0)

I am of your generation, a 60-year-old woman, but when I look at the history of this country in the twentieth century through the Roosevelt era, of political movements and what was said, then look at what has been going on since the fifties, things have skewed wildly to the right.

I did not consider the anti-war protests of the sixties to have much to do with anything other than the self interest of those threatened by the draft.  When you saw working class guys whose kids were having to go off and fight, then looked at a bunch of snotty college students trying to figure out every conceivable way to avoid being drafted, (and I was a college student at the time) it exemplified exactly what I am talking about as far a ths schism between economic populists and the social left. I was not too crazy about my peers during the 60s, they seemed remarkably self involved and self indulgent.


by mady on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:25:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have to disagree with this (none / 0)

I did not consider the anti-war protests of the sixties to have much to do with anything other than the self interest of those threatened by the draft.

as a blanket statement.  It certainly may have been true of some but not all.  A lot of us got involved in the anti war movement as an outgrowth of the anti segregation movement, the Freedom Riders whom we saw as heroes, and the anti poverty marches.  
My first protest was actually about stopping the tearing down of inner city homes to make way for condos....and my first memories of political activism was watching television in our area showing people protesting a black family moving into a white neighborhood in Chester PA which was not all that far from where I grew up.

And out of the anti war movement, grew the women's movement.  
So perhaps your statement applies to some but, imo, not to all. I was on strike twice while in my twenties and have done union organizing. I came from a family that was basically quiet about their political leanings because my father's job was a government one (cop) in a county that was very republican.  Any city or county job opportunities were connected to your political registration.  My mother worked in a textile factory, a virtual sweatshop and I can still remember fears and tears when the mostly female workforce talked to union organizers.

I am an economic populist in many ways but I wear the word liberal proudly.  To me it means being open to accepting other ways of life, to accepting that people in the world, not just in the USA, matter and that democracy only works when people speak out against injustice, including economic injustice.


by Jjc2008 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:52:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have to disagree with this (none / 0)

REASONS TO THANK A SECOND WAVE FEMINIST:

IF YOU ARE A WOMAN AND YOU HAVE EVER--

...had a credit card in your own name, rather than a man's name.

...used safe birth control.

...worked in a field once considered male or that is still predominantly male.

...worn pants to school at any time during your academic life.

No really. Jobs were listed as "White Man Wanted" or "Black Woman Wanted". Go look at a paper from 1951.

http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2008/0 5/thank-second-wave-old-feminist.html

But yes, boomer men are mostly useless backlash Reagan-voting fools who were all for war once it wasn't their asses on the line.


by redwagon on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:41:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

By "older" (none / 0)

I really meant our parents, like the 35-55 age group.

Actually, I found that the eldery were more intrigued by Obamam than my parents...and if they weren't, it was usually because of race.

My Democratic grandmother thinks he an intriguing guy, but is concerned about an African-American president. She can't really explain why, but I gather because it's from years of "black people are bad" being endless hammered into her head when she was younger.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That makes a little more sense... (none / 0)

I think a lot of elderly (over 75) have issues with race on a level even they don't get. I told my 85 year old Aunt who gets frustrated for even feeling that way (discomfort with people of color or gay people...even though she loves my gay cousins and interracial cousins) that it is the tapes in her head from her childhood.

Even my neighbor (who is 83) who in the beginning was concerned about Obama because of race told me she is voting for him because she cannot stand phony McCain, and despise Palin (she whispered to me..."I know I shouldn't say this but 'what is a woman with infant thinking about taking a job like that now?'")

I do believe most of the older boomer that I know are voting for Obama, but would have preferred Hillary.  I was talking to my cousin just now and she feels what I feel...Obama would have been fantastic in eight years.  Now, he comes off as unsure and unsteady. I think he could have learned a lot from Hillary and we would all be better off.
That will not change for me.

And when I hear people say, "the boomers are over, they had their chance," I see red.  BOOMER MEN had their chancer...we, the women, were cheated AGAIN.  I will take that to my grave.


by Jjc2008 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:40:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe the death of the economic left? (2.00 / 1)

Well put. I've been doing a lot of reading/listening/watching about Woody Guthrie recently.

His economic populism was definitely left of what many could get away with today, but was shared by most workers and farmers in the country at the time.

He didn't pull his songs out of the ether; he lived amongst the workers and farmers and his songs told their stories honestly, which is why he was so loved by "regular guys."


by vadasz on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:07:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 1)

Trauma in childhood.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:11:53 AM EST

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 2)

You remind me of a funny point in one of my favorite musicals, Woody Allen's "Everybody Says I Love You".

SPOILER ALERT

The oldest son of two bleeding-heart liberal democrats is a passionate conservative, much to the shame and chagrin of his parents. Towards the end of the film, he's rushed to the hospital with the discovery of an arterial blockage that was restricting the flow of blood to the brain. With normal blood flow restored, he goes back to espousing liberal principles, to the delight of his ecstatic parents.

We were rolling in the aisles!


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:27:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 2)

The funny thing is that I wasn't kidding.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:32:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 3)

morality is not just about how we treat each other (as most liberals think); it is also about binding groups together, supporting essential institutions, and living in a sanctified and noble way.

The author has just summarized the central tenets of Obama's campaign.  What makes him different than Republicans is that he cares about how people treat each other.  


by ProfessorReo on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:08:19 AM EST

This is a great diary, Canadian Gal (2.00 / 2)

And a positive service to any Democratic site.

As you may gather from reading many comments above, though, your efforts are completely wasted on some people here.  They aren't interested in questioning anything about their own assumptions.  They'd rather just engage in snark.    

I read the whole article and took the test.  Although I scored highly on the Millian dimensions, I also scored in the "conservatives" range on the Durkheimian dimensions.  Maybe that explains my frequent viscerally negative reactions to some of the things I read on the left netroots.


by lombard on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:45:38 AM EST

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 3)

"Liberals feel contempt for the conservative moral view, and that is very, very angering. Republicans are good at exploiting that anger,"

Let's make two lists, shall we:

List 1) Things of which Liberals are intolerant:

- Bigots

List 2) Things of which Conservatives are intolerant:

-

  • Gays
  • Lesbians
  • Bisexuals
  • Transgendered people
  • Anyone who uses birth control
  • Anyone who wants women to have the choice to have an abortion.
  • Anyone who has sex outside wedlock (exempting themselves of course).
  • Blacks
  • Asians
  • Hispanics
  • Native Americans
  • Muslims
  • Jews (unless they are "for Jesus"
  • Wiccans
  • Seikhs (sp?)
  • Animists
  • Atheists
  • Agnostics
  • Most Catholics
  • Poor people who ask for help
(etc. I could go on and on and ...)


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:00:06 AM EST

If only that were true.... (2.00 / 3)

the so called liberal blogs, I fear, disproved your theory. I saw and was shocked by the amount of ageism and sexism on these blogs....as well as elitism.


by Jjc2008 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:28:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If only that were true.... (2.00 / 1)

..not to mention, a serious amount of UsVsThemism. But maybe these weren't truly liberals!


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:56:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

On the other hand (2.00 / 2)

A photo snapshot of the Dem Convention versus the GOP Convention would tend to bear out itsthemedia's point.

It's natural for libs to self-police (self-hatred some might call it), but the idea that we aren't more diverse AND welcoming than the GOP is just unrealistic.

Again, put a picture of those two conventions side-by-side, and explain the difference.


by Neef on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:37:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 1)

There are political conservatives in all the groups you have listed.  There are people who just vote Republican because they see them as a marker of stability.  As I wrote up-thread, there is no economic left in this country anymore and all of this crap is  basically bread and circuses to distract us from the fact that most of us are  being stolen from.

You break that, you create a leftist continuum in this country of which the Democratic party is part, is the most moderate part but still part of that continuum, it starts to work again.  The party is totally chicken, totally scared to be called socialist, it's the dirtiest word in this country.

The cold war left huge scars, we're not over that yet and will  not be probably until things get so bad people are ready to listen with an open mind.  Meanwhile, the Democrats will continue to tie themselves in knots trying to be all things to all people when their main goal should be advocating for those at the victim end of the economy, which is most of us.


by mady on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:16:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 1)

Yes. The first (and very difficult) step is dramatically higher taxes on wealthy people. The bigger the rich-poor gap gets, the more control the rich people have on the political discourse. It is a viscious cycle, which unfortunately has only been broken in the past by a major economic disaster. In the throes of the Great Depression, FDR was able to massively increase marginal tax rates on the wealthy, ushering in a healthy middle class that had not been seen since the early 1800s. That middle class renaissance started to crumble in the 1980s, when Reagan was able to massively cut the top marginal rates. Coincidence? I do not think so.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:09:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 1)

As a progressive, there are quite a few more things than bigotry that I will not tolerate.  I tend to think that the things I don't tolerate are things no one should, but I imagine conservatives think the same thing.  

I don't tolerate religious fundamentalism, homophobia, uncritical belief in marriage, a flat tax, racism, ageism, sexism, ableism, pedophilia and Ayn Rand.

Now, some of those are related to bigotry, but not most.  There are surely lots more that I don't tolerate, but that's off the top of my head.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

big·ot      ˈbɪgət -noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.  

With the exception of the flat tax and maybe Ayn Rand, everything you listed boils down to the fact that you don't like bigots. And good on you.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:00:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 1)

I'm not arrogant enough to say that I am somehow never sexist, racist, ageist, or ableist, so I don't want to make myself seem perfect, but I try not to be.

I would say that pedophiles are not necessarily intolerant of other beliefs.  They have their beliefs, and they practice it without regards to the laws.  But I don't think they hate people that are not pedophiles (at least not uniformly).

The Ayn Rand comment was (mostly) a joke, though I think you can easily argue that her philosophy encourages selfish action, though not necessarily bigotry.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:07:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My bad (none / 0)

I missed the pedophiles part. OK, maybe we can add "People who prey on the innocent" to the Liberal intolerance list. To cover Ayn Rand and the flat tax, we can add something like "Economic ideas that don't work."


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:14:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My bad (none / 0)

Nicely done.  Though I think the flat tax (and Ayn Rand?) can also fit under "people who prey on the innocent."  The flat tax is one of those ideas that is just so eloquently simple that it is easily believed at first, until the data proves otherwise.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:53:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 2)

The psychological analysis is overthinking. Better to look at who votes Republican and go from there. Income over $50k? 3 out of 5 vote R, taxes, small govt. Evangelical? 4 out of 5 vote R, abortion, marriage, civil rights. Attend church more than weekly? 2 out of 3 vote R, same reasons as Evangelical. Own a gun? nearly 2 out of 3 vote R, second amendment.

People vote Republican because Republicans represent their interests, as they see them, better. If we persuade them to reorder their interests (jobs over taxes, for instance) then we win a greater share of those votes. That's how we went from splitting the union vote with the Republicans in the 80s to winning 4 out of 5 votes from union households in this century.


by souvarine on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:08:57 AM EST

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 1)

Excellent read


by mztower on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:45:09 AM EST

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

Just plain old dumbness. I talked to a guy the other night who voted twice for Bush and said it was a big mistake. But he plans on voting for McCain this time. He was going on about how McCain suffered as a POW and when I said that it didn't qualify him to   be president he repiled, "How so?"

The conservative thought process is actually the absence of a thought process.


"There's a crayon in my brain?"


GOP=9/11TM
by ObamaBiden on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:46:03 AM EST

I certainly like parts... (2.00 / 2)

...of this analysis but it certainly strikes me that  there are ways in which Democrats will not override their own gut feelings of disgust.  Democrats will not run absolutely out of bounds negative ads with the goal of gaining power.  Even though gaining power could be seen as a means of promoting justice etc. the "eww factor" of running the sorts of negative ads against Republicans as R's run against D's.

I actually think the Freudian analysis works better.  Republicans are tapping into the id and the Dems are tapping into the superego.  The Dems need to be more like the ego: "Here's how you can satisfy your id given reality and moral constraints".

Overall this is a great diary that at least gets us talking on some theoretical level.  I just happen to respectfully disagree with the particular analysis.  Darn Philosophy grad school, I wish I could shut it off at some times.


Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.
by AZphilosopher on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:13:11 AM EST

I disagree. (2.00 / 1)

Republicans overall need an external imposition of order because they have a negative view of humanity including themselves.  They consider a persons who is struggling to be personally at fault.  This causes them to respond better to negative narratives and attacks.  Democrats are the opposite, with a basically positive view of humanity.  This causes them to make appeals that are based in the positive, something Republican voters are less able to connect with.

This is oversimplified black and white ignoring the shades of grey inbetween.  Democrats can also be motivated by negative messaging, but I would say the more effected people are by negative messaging the less liberal they really are.  The Democratic Primary divided between shades of positive and negative messaging.  One candidate pushed a message of change and hope, while the other convinced people that those things couldn't be trusted.  And I think that this shows in the more blatant and loud demands for negative messaging from people that were supporters of Hillary Clinton.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 05:58:03 AM EST

Re: I disagree. (none / 0)

I think you are close, but I believe it is much more about the role of social processes.  For example, I grew up as the Alex P. Keaton of my family, both socially and fiscally conservative in a moderate/lean Democratic family.  I would have voted for Bush in 2000 if I hadn't had to do absentee ballot (thankfully).  But things were already changing for me by then.  I was a history/English major in college, and I began to see how social processes (education, job opportunity, economic system, gender) affected one's ability to succeed.  Most conservatives believe that everyone can, and should, succeed, no matter how many obstacles are in the way.  I no longer believe that.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:10:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree. (none / 0)

But what you wrote doesn't contradict what I said.
Your seeing it as positive that conservatives believe that everyone can and should succeed.  But what that amounts to is a belief that a failure to succeed is an individuals fault. The liberal belief is that people will succeed but they at times need some help, that an individuals problems arn't always because of a personal failure.  It still comes down to a conservative view of people as negative and seeing the worst in people, and a liberals view of people as postive and seeing the best in people.
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 06:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

sorry... (none / 0)

but your insightful comment is completely undermined by a myopic view of what occurred during the primary.

and i think you would be hard pressed to find a clinton primary supporter that would agree with you that obama's message was positive and clinton's negative.  in fact - i would wager a guess that most would say the opposite was true.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sorry... (none / 0)

But they'd be wrong. Of course his message wasn't purely positive, but it was more positive than Clinton's for the simple reason that he did not descend to the levels she did against him.


by MNPundit on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 05:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sorry... (none / 0)

CG, I don't think you are looking at this very clearly.

Hope cannot be seen as anything but a positive, and was one of the main foundations of the Obama campaign.  Hillary tried to argue that Hope wasn't anything to put your faith in which is negative.  Did you forget her mocking "The sky will open up..."

Now change could be perceived as an implied negative because in this case it implies moving towards something that is more positive.  But Hillary's main argument against this was to say that change cannot be trusted, which was a more overtly negative message.

Hillary was asking people to fear Obama's lack of experience, 3 a.m. ad ect, which was a negative message.

I wasn't saying the primaries were a black and white situation, but shades of grey. But Obama's messaging appeal was based on a more positive message than what Hillary used.  I was trying to establish the understanding of a more positive message the more liberal the candidate, since I thought it was accepted that between Hillary and Obama, that Obama was the more liberal, and that the guy pushing "Hope" was also the more positive.

That said do you really think I am the one being myopic here?  Or are you just offended that I included an example you didn't like seeing?


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 07:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

now... (none / 0)

is neither the time or place to refight the primary.  and i could certainly bring up examples of highly negative tactics used against clinton, the politics of personal destruction, etc, but what good would that do?

but as i said above - your perception of what occurred during the primary is quite different than those who supported clinton (roughly or more than half of the primary voters) and that should probably say something to you about what the reality is.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 11:05:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 3)

Let me try an explanation based on Ken Wilber's theories.  Disclaimer: this is all my understanding of the theories and attempts at interpretation.

Ken Wilber talks about levels in worldview development (individual, societal).  At a certain stage (~age 8) people have a "rule-mind" worldview, where they believe that the world is governed by rules that should be obeyed.  At the next stage, their worldview is rational i.e. logic dictates what is right and wrong.  The following stage is an "integral-aperspectival" worldview that focuses on tolerance and integration of opposing viewpoints.  For example, such a perspective would allow people to find abortion objectionable without forcing the issue on others.

Progressive positions stem largely from the integral worldview, while conservative positions stem largely from rule/rational worldviews.  It is too strong to correlate perfectly, because it is possible to appreciate issue positions from different worldviews e.g. the rule "tolerance is right", or rationally questioning which issue position would result in desirable outcomes.

Each person's development plateaus at one of these levels, so a society has mixes of people at different levels.  Over generations, more and more people tend to reach higher levels, so there is long-term hope - the current progressive positions will be the conservative positions in a few generations.

A very interesting thing is that positions on binary issues can (and in fact tend to) alternate between levels.  So a rule-mind person may support socialism because "the Bible says so", a rational person might oppose it because "it doesn't work", and integral worldview might support it because "everyone deserves opportunity".

This last holds a very important lesson.  There are 4 more levels beyond the integral in Wilber's model!  Of course, most of us never reach them.  But if you did, you might change your mind on all those issues that you passionately believe in now - but for entirely different reasons than the ones advanced to you now.  For example, you might oppose socialism because it is condescending to those that would otherwise be disadvantaged and inhibits their spiritual development (just made this up as an example, no idea if it really makes sense).  This is not to be conflated with the reasons given from the rational perspective (what Wilber calls the pre-trans fallacy).

The lesson is that it is a REALLY BAD IDEA to believe in the absolute rightness of positions, however obvious and "right-thinking" they seem to us.  It is normal for people at higher stages to have contempt for those whose thinking is at an earlier stage (as a "rational" child might have contempt for the "rule-minded" child), but that itself is a sign of immaturity and intolerance.  We are NOT superior to another human being because we managed to reach a different developmental level (and by the way, Wilber's model of development is much, much, more complex, so reaching a higher level - itself a fuzzy concept - does not mean we are necessarily smarter or "more developed" overall).

OK, now that we have all that theory out of the way, what does it mean for the original question, how can we understand Republicans and talk to them?

First, we need to stop believing in the absolute rightness of our viewpoints, and instead realize that it is simply that we passionately believe something and are trying to reach agreement with other people who have different beliefs.  This alone, not believing we are "absolutely right", will get rid of the elitism meme all by itself.

Second, we need to be centered in the other person's worldview, because otherwise they will interpret everything we say in their own language, and there will be a big disconnect between what we say and what is heard.  It is, of course, extraordinarily difficult to do that, not least because every individual's worldview is unique - level characterizations are huge approximations.  For our own family and friends, we might be able to do that - which is one reason why we are likely to have most success with those we know best.  Those who are very strong on empathy, and/or have excellent inquiry skills (good at drawing people out and listening to them)
are likely to be much better at convincing others - those of us who are not so strong in these areas may want to develop them as best we can.

Third, we need to remember that everyone understands tradeoffs and sees the world as complex (even those we think of as rural/insular/fundamentalist religious/stupid).  No one expects that they will agree with everything in a candidate.  So all you need to do is to show the person why, even with their worldview, concerns and prejudices, Obama may be the better choice for them.  In this election, that task is relatively easy, because in fact he is better for everyone.  The trick is to find the best way that is convincing to the other person.  Once we look at it that way, we will be centered in their viewpoint and concerns, not ours.

Finally, we need to remember that politics is about finding agreement among people with different viewpoints, not about somehow converting everyone to the same viewpoint.  You might actually have a lot of success with arguments of the form "I can see why you think Obama and Democrats are wrong on many issues, but here is why his approach could be useful for America at this point (e.g. we desperately need to address energy/global warming).  After so many years of being on the wrong track, we need to try something different, and it would probably not be a big risk.  We will hold him to his promises, and if he keeps his promises, you won't be worse off, because here are ways in which he will benefit you.  Once we solve this problem, you can continue to push for other issues which are important to you".  Accepting the legitimacy of their discomfort with various wedge issues would give us a lot of credibility with them.

Obama has carefully made sure to be non-threatening on a variety of wedge issues precisely for this reason (compromising to facilitate consensus on the important stuff).  Roe vs. Wade is the big exception - evidently he made the calculation that it would be a net gainer overall.  His entire campaign seems to be based on an understanding of and tolerance for different worldviews, hence his willingness to kowtow to gun rights.

Sorry to have gone on for so long.  Can you tell that I am really convinced about the "absolute rightness" of my point of view? :-)


by swaminathan on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:38:57 AM EST

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

"Over generations, more and more people tend to reach higher levels, so there is long-term hope - the current progressive positions will be the conservative positions in a few generations."

The problem is we no longer have generations. We have 2 (at most) before the planet becomes uninhabitable.


by MNPundit on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 05:23:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fascinating thanks n/t (2.00 / 1)


by duende on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:48:32 AM EST

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 2)

Sorry. Post above is for swimathan. On your post CG... A lot of what Haidt says is very relevant to the culture wars, and very interesting. But here we are again focusing on culture wars, and identity lifestyle politics. That is exactly what happened in 2000 and 2008. In fact McCain was a direct victim of it in South Carolina, and the Rovian smears about his adopted daughter cost him the nomination. I'm amazed he is now working with the same people who smeared him. You might say 'well that's politics'. But it is a UNIQUELY cynical moment in US politics.

Whatever your position on guns, gays or moose, LYING is on of those universal moral wrongs that most cultures recognise.

And for the religious right, its the one commandment they never remember

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS

There must be a private part of hell reserved for evangelical politicians who break this commandment


by duende on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 06:57:11 AM EST

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

My reaction when I read the blog title was, "Is this a trick question?"


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:09:40 AM EST

I really don't think it is (2.00 / 3)

simplistic. Or can be shown in one way or the other.

I grew up in a poor family, mostly first generation immigrants.  My father and all his brothers gladly fought in WWII. WHY?  They had been raised by immigrants who escaped poverty and fascism and religious bullying from southern Europe.  So their parents emphasized to them over and over how lucky they were to be Americans...to have the chance at education, a better future.

It shocked my parents when we, their children, protested the actions of our government in Vietnam.  But my cousina and I were lucky.  Our parents worked in union factories, worked hard, long hours but over the years were able to do things their parents could not do...give their children an education; buy a small home.  
Neither of my parents graduated hs, yet my siblings and I all have college degrees.

So we essentially became the left....while many from my old neighborhood, who did not get to college, went to work in the factories of our parents, veered right, especially after those factories, those jobs died.  Now their children face an uncertain future, with parents who lost jobs, lost retirements, lost a lot.  These people worry more about whether or not they can pay for a sick parent or child's health care than about the Iraq war.  

And the younger people? While some here want to depict all the younger people as going left,  in the poor schools where I taught up until I retired three years ago, many of the young parents were military and many of them were first generation Americans or Mexican nationals. I was shocked at how many supported Bush and the war.  The military offered opportunity.....and the notion of fighting for America was a good thing.  I was stunned at how many of these people voted republican...or talked like they did.   Maybe they have changed now.  This notion that the young are left and the old are right does not fit at all in my world.

Now until after Katrina did I see some of these people looking like they too had issues with the Bush administration.  
It's complex, it's tribal, it's community and it is an us against them mentality.  When I was a little kid, during the cold war, I remember reading a scifi book about how when aliens invaded the earth the Soviets and the Americans came together to save the world.  I was fascinated with the notion that the cold war could end because of a common enemy.  

I think in our complex world, we sometimes forget how people put those closest to them first, and that there is more to the notion of the "enemy of my enemy."


by Jjc2008 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:46:46 AM EST

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

Frank Rich also wrote another On the money article in todays(Sept14th) New York Times,which also pretty much sums up the fear that prompts people to vote Republican.

http://www.nytimes.com:80/2008/09/14/opi nion/14rich.html?th&emc=th


by Lodgemannered on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:57:11 AM EST

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 1)

Perception.  The GOP wins the perception game & people don't have time and/or the intellect to educate themselves beyond the soundbites.  


by jrsygrl on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:30:11 AM EST

You're making the same old partisan mistake (none / 0)

Isn't it obvious to you by now that there are millions of people on the GOP side you are intensely interested in politics and do take the time to educate themselves, too?  Or are you assuming that all of these people have the unfortunate mix of being intellectually curious but dimwitted?


by lombard on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I take your point (none / 0)

but you risk the fallacy of assuming both sides mirror each other, when they do not.

The most obvious example is given by a photograph of the GOP convention versus a photograph of the Dem convention. The difference in diversity is astounding, and has been much commented on.

You could just as easily examine the religious makeup of both sides, and find that they are not an exact mirror. These differences go deeper than just seeing different solutions to the same problem, they speak directly to worldview.

Given the very obvious macro differences, why do we immediately assume intellectual similarity? I'm not calling them morons, but I am asking on what basis we assume intellectual patterns mirror each other? Would similar levels of education, introspection and perspective lead to such wildly divergent party compositions?


by Neef on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I take your point (2.00 / 1)

Comparing the racial composition of the conventions in a year when the Democratic nominee is the first African American candidate to win the primaries is misleading. Yes, the Republican party is much whiter than the Democratic party, but this convention is poor evidence of that point.

We all know the historical reasons for the difference in convention, and party, makeup, so there is no reason to draw deep worldview conclusions when interest arguments are obvious from specific actions leaders took.


by souvarine on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:31:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama definitely muddies the comparison (none / 0)

However, the "historical differences" are not tangential to the discussion, they are intrinsic to it. As you point out, the divide existed before Obama (although he has exacerbated it).

We're positing that the two electorates are equally educated and intelligent. That would be supported if the parties merely differed on how we should solve problems - there are many solutions to any problem, after all.

However, the electorates have split into groups with radically different ethnic and spiritual makeups. More importantly, one group has emphasized homogeneity in identity and behavior, while the other takes reconciling difference to an extreme.

The comment I was responding to makes the point that it's fallacious (or condescending) to assume that the electorates are different. Yet we do see that they are, at least in ways that extend beyond intellectual factors.

How then, do we support the strong assumption that the two sides are intellectually identical? It's been said before that this very thread would be unlikely on a conservative site, and yet we are to assume that they are as prone to intellectual discourse as we are?


by Neef on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:10:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I take your point (none / 0)

Find some videos of the conventions since the mid-'70s. I don't think they would be too different - on either side - from what we just saw in Denver and St. Paul.


by royce on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're making the same old partisan mistake (none / 0)

There are 2 factions - those that vote GOP because of some sort of zealotry who don't know or don't care about residual repercussions OR those that vote GOP based upon ignorance & their manipulated perceptions. Some people that are ignorant have the intellectual capacity to be educated (aka they aren't necessarily idiots).  But the GOP campaign has based a very successful strategy on manipulating the perceptions of these 2 factions. Hell I worked for somebody for years who was not stupid, but watched O'Reilly and always wound up voting GOP. His only argument to me in the face of facts was "but that isn't the perception."  And he was right about that.  

However there is NO possibility that someone who doesn't have some sort of zealot reasoning (ie the homophobe movement) could possibly vote GOP if they TRULY had a grasp on the facts.


by jrsygrl on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:48:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, with an attitude like that (none / 0)

you'll never persuade anyone and, unfortunately, there are too many in our party with the same attitude.  In some ways I liked our party better when we were losing regularly.  At least fewer of us seemed to be so vocal about their own intellectual infallibility.

Your last proposition is at best hyperbolic but if you find that certainty comforting, by all means, carry on.


by lombard on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:44:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, with an attitude like that (none / 0)

No it is taking an honest assessment of the situation and realizing what we have to work from.  The GOP wins because they manipulate people better and they studied HOW to do that & use some very identifiable tactics.  Look I have some points of view where I an admit there is another legitimate side to the argument or that I could be wrong. In this situation though there is no legitimate fact based point of view, only one based in some sort of emotional or psychological manipulation. It just is what it is.  So let's identify the issue and solve the problem.

And I say this as someone who grew up around many Republicans and have people who were very important in my life at various times who were/are GOP voting individuals.  They aren't going to change and it is b/c while they are NOT stupid they have been manipulated psychologically and are also less well informed then they believe themselves to be (aka ignorant).But b/c of the psychological manipulation in place the odds of changing them with a rational argument is low.  The odds of over time working on manipulating them in a grander scale, is however more possible. But I'm not an expert in that.


by jrsygrl on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 09:50:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:Very interesting. (none / 0)

Thomas Frank, in his book "What's the Matter with Kansas?" argues that working Americans have turned to the GOP because the democratic party is no longer the party of labor.  Hence, Because the democratic party is only marginally better than the GOP on economic issues, the party is vulnerble to wedge issues.  This essay sheds some light on the reasons that those wedge issues matter.to values voters.    

I would be curious to know if Haidt (or any other researchers) looked at the link between political beliefs and level of education.  Personally, I feel that higher education had a huge impact on my values and by association, my political beliefs.  


by half nelson on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:22:48 AM EST

Re:Very interesting. (none / 0)

But his book's premises have been thoroughly debunked by Larry Bartels.  The fact is that working class voters who supposedly vote against their interests in fact tend to vote Democrat.  Frank has based his argument on conventional wisdom that is simply false.


by slynch on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:34:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:Very interesting. (none / 0)

How do any republicans get elected then?


"There have existed, in every age and every country, two distinct orders of men - the lovers of freedom and the devoted advocates of power"
by Classical Liberal on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:14:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:Very interesting. (none / 0)

Again they win the war on controlling perception.


by jrsygrl on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:49:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:Very interesting. (none / 0)

middle and upper middle class voters have become more Republican.  The working class (indeed, the bottom third of the income distribution) has become more democratic.  Bartels says that only the very very bottom of the income distribution, and even then, only in the deep south, have become slightly less democratic.


by slynch on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 05:15:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You were doing fine until the end (none / 0)

When you revealed yourself as another self-congratulatory liberal.  I'm amazed at how many in our party simply can't help themselves when given the opportunity to express this urge.  Speaking of higher education, I have a Ph.D. but my own opinion is that higher education "should" enable enough wisdom to avoid saying something so blatantly and obviously condescending in mixed company.


by lombard on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:39:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You may notice... (none / 0)

...I merely said that higher education impacted my values and political beliefs.  Period.  I did not say it was necessarily for the better, nor did I imply that my values or beliefs are superior to anyone else's, so don't put words in my mouth.  I'm well aware that I have my own biases and blind spots like everyone else.  


by half nelson on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You were doing fine until the end (none / 0)

And by the way I am not discussing formal education either when it comes to being knowledgeable (although that CAN be an indicator).  However I know people who have advanced degrees that fancy themselves to knowledgeable on the political process/current events while they tune into Fox News everyday. And I know others that don't have advanced degrees who do get it.  


by jrsygrl on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:51:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As Reagan would say, there you go again (none / 0)

"However I know people who have advanced degrees that fancy themselves to knowledgeable on the political process/current events while they tune into Fox News everyday."

You're assuming that one would have to be dimwitted to prefer Fox News even if that person is educated.   One could recognize the bias of Fox News and still prefer the network to some others.  In fact, that was exactly the case with many Hillary supporters over the primary season.  At least they didn't have to put up with MSNBC's almost constant Hillary bashing.  Compared to Keith Olbermann, Bill O'Reilly is a model of objectivity.  At least he is willing to engage many from the other side and sometimes come to a reasonable consensus or disagreement with them.  Olbermann, on the other hand, is a relentless propagandist (even if I frequently agree with him) and the guests on his show are designed to be his echo chamber.    


by lombard on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As Reagan would say, there you go again (none / 0)

I didn't watch either during the primary & I lost alot of respect for Keith Olbermann.  Also only an idiot would suddenly decide that O'Reilly is somehow on their side b/c he is trying to exploit how badly Hillary Clinton was treated (much of the foundation having been laid by his cohorts).  And once again I have known people who had intellectually capable minds but who had very ignorant thoughts.

Anyone AT ALL who votes for the GOP is operating from a place of ignorance or some severe emotional issues (ie religious zealots). It is no longer a question of different ideologies.  Now it is a situation where the facts are black and white.  Once again ignorance should not always be confused with intelligence level.  Somebody who is not very intelligent will of course be more likely to be ignorant; somebody who IS intelligent though can be very ignorant about many things, even subjects they think they are knowledgeable on b/c they have successfully been manipulated. And generally human beings are not that difficult to manipulate.


by jrsygrl on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:59:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

im guessing... (2.00 / 1)

you didnt give the article a read?  


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:08:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: im guessing... (none / 0)

No I read the article & I get it BUT what it seems like people are ignoring is the answer for how to deal with the problem. The bottom line is the GOP is better at manipulating people through the use of basic persuasion techniques.  We sit here and mull the implications over when the answer is that if we would simply employ some similar base levels of persuasion we would actually win the election.

THAT is my point.


by jrsygrl on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 09:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

One of my friends at work, an older woman, always votes Republican - her and her husband. She told me that she "hates Bush" and was seriously considering voting for Obama (her husband was not) BUT - they are about to retire with all their money tied up in stock portfolio, etc. They want the lowest taxes possible. They are concerned about the inheritance taxes for their children, they have home(s) and want to keep the exemptions - so their reason is 100% MONEY.

I would not consider them wealthy - by any means - but here in CA - many houses are worth $1-$2 million that would be worth far less elsewhere. They are concerned about the 2010 inheritance taxes and the changes they believe Obama would make in capital gains taxes.

So, consequently, they will both vote republican (again) even though neither of them like McCain!!


by nikkid on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:14:47 PM EST

You should tell them why they won't be impacted (2.00 / 1)

Only a very small portion of retired people are in the income range that would be impacted by Obama's tax proposals. Distributions from retirement plans are not taxed as capital gains (for the most part).  Finally, a reformed estate tax (rather than a return to the pre-2001 one) is likely to occur, making it even less likely that they would be covered (only a very, very small percentage of the population pays estate taxes).  Finally, the $500 K exclusion for gain on the sale of a principle residence for a married couple should remove even the substantial majority of Californians from taxation of gain on the sale of a home particularly now that the state has experienced some significant deflation.


by lombard on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:32:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 1)

And what you described right now was a vote based upon ignorance. They perceive that financially they & their children will be better off if the GOP remains in office, when in reality the opposite is true.


by jrsygrl on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 04:53:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (2.00 / 1)

Great diary, except for the first line.  This notion that working class voters vote Republican has been debunked by Larry Bartels, first in "What's the Matter with What's the Matter with Kansas," and more recently in his 2008 book "Unequal Democracy."  Working class voters do not tend to vote Republican.


by slynch on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 01:36:43 PM EST

Re: It is the CREDIBILITY, stupid !!! (none / 0)

The only politician from the current Democratic Party who people believe in Presidential politics is BILL CLINTON.

The Audacity of Obama to criticize BC Presidency and then not selecting Hillary as VP and then not embracing BC's moderate fiscal policies is appalling.

Obama is going to loose the GE in a landslide.

After seeing NJ light blue, I predict California WILL be in play next week.


by Avistan on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:22:25 PM EST

The diary is talking macro, not micro (2.00 / 2)

so you're making the case that only one Democrat in the past 30 years has been credible? Gore wasn't? Kerry wasn't?


by Neef on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:25:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, they were only Barry Manilowes (none / 0)

To Clinton's Elvis.


by lombard on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 07:51:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, they were only Barry Manilowes (none / 0)

I was a strong Kerry supporter.  He was to the left of Clinton and my beliefs were much more in line with his.  I am not sure I understand why this idolizing of BC; I see Hillary as much more talented and capable and more in possession of progressive values than Bill.  I don't know what I'm missing here but it seems to me Bill's huge strength was in his personal ability to reach people, not in his actual beliefs or anything he did with that ability.


by mady on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:45:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good stuff CG (2.00 / 2)

Provoked a lot of good discussion, too.  I get pretty bored of rah-rah diaries and troll diaries and troll-hunting diaries and start panicking diaries and stop panicking diaries.  This was a good thoughtful read.

Rec'd, tipped.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:42:44 PM EST

I just thought of this (none / 0)

Lehman is declaring bankrupcy, how could we lose on this issue?

Well how can a government handle the economy? They could raise taxes, cut spending, or print more money.

Well given the choice, most Americans choose cut spending; cut welfare, etc. Basically cut any spending they don't need. Most Americans are not on welfare, or do not need Medicaid or Medicare.

The truth is most Americans are not willing to sacrifice for other Americans. They give donations during natural disasters, but whatever they decided to give; $10, $25, and call it a day...but taxes are government's way of FORCING them to take responsibility to each other. They don't like to be forced.

I suspect that the only way for people in this country to begin taking responsibility for each other is for us collectively as a country to suffer, like we did during the Great Depression.

What brought out socialism in Europe? Well, when everyone up to the royal family saw bombs falling on their houses, when every Frenchman saw Nazis marching into their towns, when every German suffered at the hands of Hitler.

People vote Republican because they don't think they'll ever need what the Democrats offer them.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:45:25 PM EST

Lehman (none / 0)

We can lose the same way we were losing as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were taken over. The reactions of Obama and McCain were indistinguishable. If Obama can't articulate a clear policy around Lehman, and can't clearly distinguish it from McCain's position, then Lehman and the continuing chain of investment bank failures will do nothing to help us.

If he drowns out a clear message related to Lehman with liar liar lobbyist lobbyist change change, then this crisis will do nothing to help us win.

The worst case is that McCain does articulate a coherent approach, uses it to reinforce his reform and experience argument, and Obama hops on board.


by souvarine on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lehman (2.00 / 1)

Obama has articulated a clear message, very different from McCain's - see his Cooper Union speech.  He just doesn't politicize disasters, as has been seen time and again.

Some people may think that is a losing strategy, but only time will tell.  It is definitely resulting in a clear and huge contrast between the candidates that is obvious to everyone, and is likely to matter at decision time.


by swaminathan on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lehman (none / 0)

My alma mater and a great speech, really great speech.  Thanks for posting it.


by mady on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:28:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lehman (2.00 / 1)

I covered my issues with Obama's Cooper Union speech back in May. But you are quite right, Obama doesn't "politicize disasters" or have any interest at all in advocating for strong liberal solutions to economic problems. Obama is an economic moderate, and it is hard to distinguish the solutions he does propose from those McCain proposes. This puts Democrats in a difficult political position, since we can't win unless voters can distinguish Obama from McCain on economic issues.

Even if he did believe in liberal solutions he would be constrained from advocating for them because so much of his funding comes from executives of companies like Goldman Sachs.


by souvarine on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lehman (none / 0)

Thank you for the link to your diary - definitely an excellent discussion.  Apologies for the late response.

I guess I do agree with Obama's approach, from a systems thinking perspective.  I agree with the market-based approach, because it is self-organizing - but it is clear that a total "free market" is not a fair market.  The role of the government (IMO) is to prevent "tragedy of the commons" patterns - situations where what is good for individual players is not good for the system as a whole.  Interventions should be the barest minimum to prevent tragedy of the commons patterns, because government behaviour is very low agility (slow response times) with respect to self-organization.

Sorry to be so theoretical.  If you are interested, I would love to have a discussion on the philosophy.  I know relatively little about economics, but am a systems researcher, and would learn a lot from such debates.


by swaminathan on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 01:32:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

A simple reason: if you grow up in a home where bigotry and racism are accepted, where you hear that "others" (Democrats, Jews, blacks, women, Catholics - whatever) are bad and the cause of all the problems in the world, it is very hard to separate from that. It becomes as much a part of who you are as anything you do regularly (brushing your teeth, hanging out at the local bar, etc.). You don't have to think about issues; you've had a lifetime of being trained to know what words are good (Victory in Iraq!) and what words are bad (pro-choice). It's why appeals to emotion (and lies) help Republicans win.


by royce on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:51:59 PM EST

Re: What Makes People Vote Republican? (none / 0)

In my experience there are 3 reasons people vote Republican. Either:

Ignorance
Fear
or Greed


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 10:54:30 PM EST


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