Clinton not VP?

Yes, it would seem that's the case. First, you've got the announcement for when Clinton is speaking at the convention, "Tuesday night is Hillary night," said one supporter. Second, VoteBoth.com is shutting it down, saying, "Regretfully, this means that Senator Hillary Clinton is no longer under consideration as Senator Obama's running mate."

I was never a big fan of Clinton and Obama teaming up, either way, though I do get the idea. Successful VP picks tend to go two ways. First, a very competitive primary candidate that represents another wing of the party is joined to the ticket in order to combine forces. The 'shotgun marriage' type of ticket. The 1980 Reagan-Bush ticket, or the 1960 Kennedy-Johnson ticket, is a good example of this type of ticket. Certainly, an Obama-Clinton ticket would have fit this bill.

The second successful ticket combines simpatico candidates, who work together well. It overlooks things like geography and the primary. The best example of this ticket is Clinton-Gore in 1992, and Bush-Cheney in 2000.

Then there's the overt political choices, that have mixed results, like Gore-Lieberman in 2000, Dole-Kemp in 1996. I'd stick the 2004 ticket of Kerry-Edwards here too, and you could argue that Bush-Cheney is here as well. Its a ticket based on polling mostly, but also on filling voids and, in the case of Bush-Cheney, reassurance.

Where does that leave us with Obama? The choice of Biden is not a simpatico move, but a calculation, a reassurance move. As, ultimately, is the choice of Reed, or any other Sentor. The choice of either Sebelius or McCaskill is a move of simpatico, but it's very difficult to believe that Obama is going to have Clinton speak on Tuesday, and a different woman as VP on Wednesday. The comparison will be the story, which is not good.

Edwards, Clark, Richardson, none of those seem in contention according to the leaks. And the best choices, Warner, Strickland, Webb, are out of the running. Out of the leaked candidates, we are left with Bayh and Kaine. Bayh, obviously a calculative move, and Kaine, a simpatico choice.

Who knows, maybe its someone else, but I wouldn't be surprised if Obama makes his announcement just prior to going on vacation (sometime during the Olympics), so that the press focuses on the VP candidate. Lets say its Kaine.

In the last poll results here, Sebelius (42%), Kaine (41%) and Bayh (15%), he did pretty well. In the follow-up poll, the question is whether Kaine is a good choice, or Obama should choose someone else.

Update [2008-7-31 12:2:55 by Jerome Armstrong]: Jeralyn is wondering whether Kaine is a smokescreen for Sebelius. I highly doubt it, but maybe for someone else.


Poll
For Obama's VP
Kaine is good
Someone else

Votes: 51
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

I believe he would pick Evan Bayh.

Why not give yourself a shot at indiana among other positives.

Kaine and Warner should be able to help you off the ticket in Virginia.

Warner is already somewhat on the ticket.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:42:57 AM EST

Re: Clinton not VP? (2.00 / 4)

If it isn't going to be Clinton, then it's going to be someone who will inject no excitement into the race.

Sounds like a pretty ho-hum list to me.  


by Radiowalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:44:19 AM EST

Re: Clinton not VP? (2.00 / 1)

I really, really, really want him to pick Clark but some are convinced he blew that chance when he went after McCain (I disagree).

As for Kaine, I have no problems with that pick. The only pick I would have trouble with (I'd be really pissed) is if he chose a Republican as his running mate. Other than that...

I trust Senator Obama.


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:46:57 AM EST

At some point the denizens of this blog (none / 0)

will come to terms that it won't be Hillary, as I have firmly stated many times.  That is absolutely the correct decision on the part of the Obama team.  
I don't understand why Wes Clark isn't getting the nod, he's a far more compelling pick than this remaining bunch of milquetoast Dems, but that's my party, I guess.  At least we got the right guy for the number one spot this time, which is a rarity.
by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

I agree.  Just no Republicans please.  My fantasy is Gore; I think Clark would be great; I'm OK with Hillary; I think it'll be Sebelius (whom I like also)


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:19:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, certainly (2.00 / 3)

The choice of either Sebelius or McCaskill is a move of simpatico, but it's very difficult to believe that Obama is going to have Clinton speak on Tuesday, and a different woman as VP on Wednesday.

You know, those women do seem to be getting a bit presumptuous lately.  They really shouldn't expect to have more than one prominant role these days.

I'm going to write the DNC and demand that all women be taken off the speaking docket besides Clinton.  Then I'm going to get married so I can force my wife to do laundry and make my dinner while pregnant.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:52:35 AM EST

Re: Oh, certainly (none / 0)

I'm also going to write the DNC to demand this and then I'll quit my job, focus on housework, and start going barefoot.  (Getting pregnant now would be a step too far.)


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:59:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (2.00 / 2)

The sacarsm is somewhat amusing .

However Jerome would probably be backed up by the Obama campaign .

He won't pick Sebelous .

While she has accomplished great things and most would respect her , on a political level she is ruled out.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:06:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why? (2.00 / 1)

Can you please explain why? I've heard tons of people say it. I've just never heard an explanation as to why.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:11:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (2.00 / 2)

How about if Hillary Clinton wins the nomination after the long contested primary .

Do you think she would want to give herself more political headaches if she has no intention of picking Obama by going ahead and picking Harold Ford  even if her intentions for picking him was purely for innocent/genuine reasons ? ....

She would have to be explaining the move for weeks , talk less of voters who would read several meanings to it.

Some would think it is insulting , others would think it is patronizing , some others would be angry , the media would be asking questions etc.

No matter what her intentions , it would be a headache she doesn't need.

I think the Obama campaign would see it that way .

Even leaving that calculus out of it , Sebelous doesn't do much for him electorally that I can see .

Infact she would serve to remind the public of the inexperience on the ticket.

If she is a benefit electorally , i haven't heard anyone articulate how she is .

Obama is still losing Kansas by about 20 points , so what is her electoral use ?


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:26:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bad example (none / 0)

Harold Ford isn't nearly as qualified for the vice presidency as Sebelius.  The case doesn't track.  You need a different example.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bad example (2.00 / 1)

That is your personal opinion , right ?

Really has no bearing to the bottomline.

She might pick him for whatever reason she deems fit , it would be interpreted whatever ways each voter wants to like you just did.

The symbolism is the issue ,

Thats the point .

In terms of experience , I don't know how many voters who would think Sebelous brings experience to the ticket .

I respect an admire her but I don't see how she is not a headache for Obama and I don't see what she does for him electorally .

He is better off with Kaine or Bayh , even if those are far from Ideal .

At least their electoral significance is clear.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:38:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's objective reality (2.00 / 0)

Your example doesn't make sense.  Sebelius has 22 years of public service, in equal or higher offices than Ford.  The only way your example makes sense is if you cross your eyes and say "Oh, Clinton could choose a younger black guy if Obama could choose an older white woman!"


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:59:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's objective reality (2.00 / 1)

Again your response has nothing to do with my point .

You surely can continue expressing your personal opinions of his qualifications , that has very little to do with the point .

I am not comparing the experiences of both candidates . ( although I have my personal opinion on that ).

My initial point is if Clinton won the long contested primary , do you think she would want the headache of skipping Obama as a VP pick and picking Harold Ford no matter what are intentions are ( whether experience , sympatico etc or whatever ) .

Thats a VP pick that would give her headache and she would have to be explaining .

The reverse goes for Obama with Sebelous .

The argument over the experience of Sebelous and Ford is irrelevant.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sebelius (none / 0)

If you're trying to have an informed opinion on someone, you should spell their name correctly.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:36:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bad example (2.00 / 1)

Your response/comment is a good example of why I don't take political conversation very seriously here.


by soyousay on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:41:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How so? (2.00 / 0)

Harold Ford, Jr.: Legacy candidate, 10 years House of Representatives relatively unopposed in a favorable district, lost Senate bid in Democratic landslide year to the widely criticized Republican mayor of Chattanooga.  Appointed to head of DLC.

Kathleen Sebelius: 8 years in House of Representatives, 8 years as first Democratic Kansas State Insurance Commissioner in 100 years, 6 years Governor of Kansas (60% approval rating).

She has, literally, over twice the experience and vastly more impressive achievements. I stand by my assessment.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:56:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bad example (2.00 / 1)

Personally, after George W. Bush was elected, the American people have a different criteria of determining who is qualified for the position or not. If you ask me, Obama's campaign message largely benefited from George W. Bush's inept presidency. So, it has to be a personal preference on your part, Dracomicron, to disqualify Harold Ford.

I believe, now, the president is just a trumped-up Spokesperson with some added benefits. The person who can win the excitement (charm) factor is the president. It's truly rare when we can get a "charmer with results."


by Check077 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That hasn't stopped Obama yet (none / 0)

allowing the floor vote at the convention seemed like a no-brainer, but they wouldn't allow it.

While a lot of Hillary supporters will see Sebelius as a slap, a lot will not. I could see him picking Sebelius, who I see as Hillary-LITE.


by catfish2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That hasn't stopped Obama yet (2.00 / 0)

Sebelius ran a state. The largest thing Hillary has run was her campaing and look at how disapointing her management of that endeavor turned out. TWENTY MILLION in debt!


by venician on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:00:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's the largest thing Obama has run (2.00 / 3)

too. In fact, has Obama run ANYTHING besides his voter registration drive as a community organizer? And did he RUN the drive, or was he just a team player?

Hillary ran one while she was still in college. She also taught law made partner at a law firm. She was the Indiana state field organizer for the McGovern campaign in 1972. Served on Nixon's impeachment staff, she tried cases and published briefs, expanded access to healthcare for children in Arkansas and veterans from New York. Obama tried no cases and published not a single brief.

Hillary won the second half of the primary, and she's very close to paying off the entire thing. McCain's campaign went into debt, as did John Kerry's, before they came back to win them.


by catfish2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:20:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the largest thing Obama has run (2.00 / 1)

HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC HRC... it's always and forever all about.... HRC!!!!


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

I'd be against Ford because he's a horrible Democrat. I don't really see the Obama campaign giving anything but support.

Sebelius may not help out electorally, but it is unclear that Kaine would help much at all in Virginia. I also don't think Bayh would put Indiana in play.

If having experience is bad, then shouldn't we only look at House members, since Obama is a single term senator? That's just ridiculous. Every name mentioned has more political experience than Obama. That is just reality.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:37:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

" If having experience is bad, then shouldn't we only look at House members,..."

- I didn't make that argument , infact I made the opposite .

If Obama is trying to reassure voters on experience which is trying to do with his tour etc picking Sebelous doesn't help that case in my view.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:43:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

Sorry, I misread. The attack doesn't make sense the other way, though. Sebelius certainly has more experience than Kaine and about as much as Bayh, so I don't get it.

Jerome lays out her case as a simpatico politician in the main post. She has similar positions to Obama and would bolster the outsider/work across the aisle/change meme that his campaign is all about.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

No need to apologize .

Sure your point is well taken and I agree .

All 3 candidates don't really bring much in terms of experience , but my initial point was that you could see the electoral significance of Kaine and Bayh in terms of VA and IND .

But the significance of Sebelous is a headscratcher apart from the headaches she would likely bring for Obama , I don't really see what she does for him electorally .

If it is about sympatico , change and friendliness which doesn't really mean much on the ground electorally , why not go with Kaine.

Sebelous brings only headaches in my view.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:14:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (2.00 / 1)

The difference for me is that Sebelius has worked across the aisle to enact mostly progressive policies (e.g., anti-coal, education funding) whereas Kaine has worked across the aisle to sell out progrssive values (e.g., pro-coal, anti-stem cell research, anti-estate tax). Obama may prefer the Kaine model, but I certainly don't. It's more of the capitulation as compromise.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:24:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

Don't use Harold Ford as an example: he's just not a credible VP pick.  There's no planet on which Hillary - or anyone - choosing him would make sense.

But sure, if Hillary Clinton picked someone who she worked well with, who brought their own stature to the ticket and who happened to be African American there would be no problem with it.


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:21:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

Hey he is from my homestate , so back off.

Sure you might feel its okay , but there would be a lot of voters who won't see it that way.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:26:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

Such as?


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:35:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is spot on, despite what those (2.00 / 1)

who want to give Obama a free hand want to say.   The quality of the candidates don't matter.   The fact is, Clinton's more than qualified to be VP AND she got 17M+ primary votes.   The choice of another woman for the ticket brings all of the problems that Lori mentions.   The apt analogy is not that of Ford to Sibelius but of Obama to Clinton.  Both Obama and Clinton are top drawer candidates clearly qualified to be VP (or Pres).   Passing them over for a historic nomination and giving that historic opportunity to another member of the same racial or gender minority who happened to back the nominee is not worth the trouble.


by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (2.00 / 0)

Sorry, but you are looking at these candidates from only on angle: their minority status. That's the only thing that makes them comparable. Sebelius is a two term popular progressive governor in a red state.  Ford is failed candidate for the Senate and DLC chairman. Though Obama won't win Kansas, Sebelius would be helpful in other Midwest states.  Also, she has executive experience.  Ford would bring nothing.

By reducing these candidates to their demographic you are perhaps saying more about yourself than them or Obama.  It's ridiculous (and sexist) to argue that only one woman is allowed to be VP in this election.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:27:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (2.00 / 1)

What Jawis said? What is it about an accomplished, two-term governor from the midwest that excludes her from consideration?

Other than the histrionic, transferred-narcissism of people like Lanny Davis and 'alegre'?


by BlueinColorado on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:18:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (none / 0)

Clearly, Obama should only pick a woman to placate hysterical women who won't vote for him because he beat Hillary Clinton. Since the goal is to placate hysterical Clinton supporters, he has to pick Clinton herself.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (2.00 / 1)

Hardly just women: Will Bower, Lanny Davis, a certain prominent blogger....

Of course, it's about the Hillary Cultists, you know that and I know that and everybody knows that. But since they don't acknowledge that, I was just wondering if they had come up with some pseudo-rational explanation of why independent, accomplished people like Sebellius, Napolitano and McCaskill (none of whom are necessarily my first choice) should be excluded.


by BlueinColorado on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:32:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't see what accomplishments (none / 0)

she has, at least not any that would add to the strength of the ticket.  As far as I know, she has no international experience, no particular experience on the national scene.  Plus, she is largely unknown to the country.

She would be a very weak choice, in my view.


by Radiowalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't see what accomplishments (none / 0)


As far as I know, she has no international experience, no particular experience on the national scene.  Plus, she is largely unknown to the country.

That's because she's a governor.  What she does have, and what Obama and Clinton both lack, is executive experience.


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't see what accomplishments (none / 0)

But Obama lacks national security experience and foreign policy experience and I think this is a far greater deficit than the lack of executive experience.   She can't help him in this arena at all.  

His best choice would be Biden or Clinton.


by Radiowalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 05:48:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What? No baby? (none / 0)

We're going to have a serious talk about who wears the pants in this household, missy. :P


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:19:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you! (2.00 / 0)

Yeah, having two prominent women in the party would be such a bad thing. Sebelius isn't a popular red state governor who was against the war from the begining or anything. Fuck that bullshit. She doesn't have a penis, and that's what matters. Since Hillary Clinton also doesn't have a penis, so we CLEARLY can't choose Sebelius.

They aren't different politicians with various experiences and policy positions. They are just non-men, so you have to choose the non-man who won the most votes in the primary.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's the politics of it - (none / 0)

In fairness, if there were a woman of comparable stature and accomplishment to Clinton, then selecting a different woman would make sense.

I agree that these sort of "profiling" considerations shouldn't matter in an ideal world.  But in the real world, they do.  Obama doesn't need to pick a woman to make history.  And there is no female candidate who stands out as head and shoulders above the male candidates (I'll include Clinton in this as she would bring a unique set of issues to a ticket).


by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (none / 0)

You should seek out a job at the RNC, with that type of parsing ability.

The rest is the context: "Obama is going to have Clinton speak on Tuesday, and a different woman as VP on Wednesday. The comparison will be the story, which is not good."


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (none / 0)

The comparison will be the story, which is not good.

The media would have loads of fun with this one.


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (none / 0)

Why is that a problem? The media is going to do the whole "Why not Clinton?" thing anyways. Why would it matter that she's a woman too. You've keep repeating it without explaining it. There are multiple prominent women in the Democratic party. That is a good thing. Having two speak at the convention is not a big deal.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:13:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (none / 0)

Why would it matter that she's a woman too.

Are you kidding? Have you seen the way the media has behaved during this election season?

Of course it would matter to them. They would create some faux controversy, take some quotes from the Clinton camp out of context and overshadow the convention with their crap. In the real world this is how the media works. It would be great if they weren't such assholes but they are.


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:20:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (2.00 / 0)

I really don't see it. The Clinton response would be nothing but supportive of the nominee. Sebelius herself would probably also give Clinton some credit for helping to put those cracks in the glass ceiling. Please, explain why the media won't do this with a male nominee? Can't/won't they do the exact same thing?


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would be disappointed in Clinton (1.00 / 0)

If she didn't tell Obama to stick it up his A$$ if he chose another woman for the ticket.   I think that she has some self-respect.   Sibelius will make a fine Secretary of Agriculture in the Obama Cabinet if she wishes to come to Washington.  


by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:50:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (2.00 / 1)

Agreed.

I don't know why people think the media will ever take the high road. Think of the most ridiculous, painful, and ludicrous thing to harp on during the convention and that will be the media's focus.

Like when Al Sharpton spoke in 2004 - it wasn't what he said but the fact that he went off script that the news cycles focused on.

C'est la vie...


by Babloo328 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (none / 0)

Who's being naive about the media her? The non-Clinton female crowd apparently thinks the media will be nice if Obama doesn't pick another woman. The media is going to do it's thing. They'll look for dissent and maybe even create it out of whole cloth, but picking a man won't make things better.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (none / 0)

I'm actually a big Sebelius fan by the way. I just agree with Jerome that picking a woman who is not Clinton is already making the networks drool. It WILL overshadow the convention. As far as saying the media will react the same way if it's a man....who's being naive about the media here?


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (none / 0)

Their reaction will be clearly different, but it won't be any more negative. The media can make any Obama move look bad in numerous ways. Trying to defend against one possible attack out of dozens is just silly.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Alternatively (none / 0)

We could be beyond that horse hockey by the time the convention rolls around.  How much coverage is the Hillary Clinton-inspired "rift in the Democratic party" getting in the last couple weeks?  Go ahead and check.  I'll wait.

Unlike some here, the rest of the country has moved on from the primary wars.  Somebody might make the connection you just made, but it won't be to their credit, just as this isn't to yours.

Hillary Clinton, to her credit, would doubtless be overjoyed that more women are getting prominent roles and that her candidacy truly made lasting history by making it unremarkable that more than one woman could rise to prominence within one political season.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, certainly (none / 0)

Been there (pregnant-), cook too much already,
getting more presumptuous by the day...

Looking forward to Hillary speaking at the convention, however, she is not the problem!
Her handlers ran a horrible campaign, Bill opened his mouth way too much, (did he have a TIA around that stent operation?) In the long run though, it was Hillary that allowed the horrible campaign managers to keep on keeping on with bad mistakes and kept thinking they would end up different-duh?
It is hard to come to terms with the above different excuses? or is she "old politics"?
She is "old politics", simple as that.

I think the country is so ready to get rid of Bush, that they want change, change, change, (is that a song?)  anyway, I am now happy with Obama, and will trust him to pick a good VP.  Webb was my choice first, seems he is out.  Kaine does not have the recognition and seems too eager openly.
Biden-would be fine, any other woman would make Hillary voters go beserk (believe me that is true). I really have a hard time getting excited anticipating the right wing machine attacks from that day forward.
Just hope Obama responds to everyone of the Faux lies!


by lja on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kaine too obvious at this point (none / 0)

Only reason I don't think it's Kaine is all the speculation that it IS Kaine. On the other hand, the Obama campaign has been very disciplined except they tend to announce things before the do it, they're not into the big surprises. During the primary it was announced he was going to start being more aggressive. That cracked me up - show us, don't tell us. Just saw it as Marty McFly saying he was considering taking a swing at that bully.


by catfish2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:52:40 AM EST

just no Nunn (2.00 / 1)

Nunn is the only person that I would have to say absolutely No to.

The truth is that this really needs to be his decision.  I think he needs to pick someone he feels absolutely comfortable with and that he can work with.

For the most part, I don't think those Unity tickets really work out in the long run.  Kennedy-Johnson only worked because Kennedy died.  Reagan-Bush only worked because Bush completely sold out his principles.   I think this showed a lot in 1992 when he just didnt have the energy to keep running as something he truley wasn't.

I think a major reason for Gore's loss in 2000 was Lieberman.  While it seemed like a good choice at first, the two of them never really clicked.  Lieberman did absolutely nothing to shore up any perceived weaknesses of Gore.

Clinton-Gore worked so well because I think that back in 1992 they really respected each other and could work well together.  Neither one added any strength to the other or closed out any gaps.

I think Obama would be smartest to pick someone more like him and someone who he really likes.   I think he really needs to pick someone genuinely wants to work with as a team.  


by gavoter on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:56:31 AM EST

Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

Why would there be any more comparison between Clinton and a woman/vp pick and Clinton and a male/vp pick? I just don't buy it. Either way there will be contrasts to their speeches and their receptions' in the hall.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:57:47 AM EST

So there are couple of questions for you.... (2.00 / 2)

  1. Now that there is no Unity Ticket do you think there'll be two power centers in the party? Is that detriment to the progressive movement? Note I'm not arguing that all would have been hum-dum if there was an Unity Ticket especially in the Administration. There was definitely a possibility that the "shot-gun" marriage (as you put it) may not have worked.
  2. The progressive movement expecially in the Blogosphere have definitely splintered. Does that reduce it's influence and effectiveness over the future of the party's and national polity. Does that give an opening to the rightwing to fill in the gap?

by louisprandtl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:59:08 AM EST

Re: So there are couple of questions for you.... (none / 0)

Actually I disagree that the progressive movement in the blogosphere has splintered. It is strongly, strongly pro-Obama.  There are very few true progressives who are not supporting Obama.  There are plenty of faux Democrats trashing Obaha - but that's not the same thing at all.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:01:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So there are couple of questions for you.... (2.00 / 4)

I think you may want to believe this, and are trying to force yourself to believe this, but it's simply not accurate.  The Progressive movement is splintered and I would go as far as to say shattered.

Are most behind Obama, sure.  Would they be behind any DEM candidate, obviously they would.  So, to say that they are behind HIM is not simply accurate.  They are supporting the DEM candidate.

To simply insinuate that there are faux Democrats trashing Obama is simply bone headed and wrong.  You are not help progressives or Obama's campaign with this type of rhetoric.  And with the race as tight as it is, we need all the help we can get.

If you want to support Obama and say progressives in your opinion are behind him, fine.  But let's lay off the trashing of Democrats just because they're not as manic about Obama as you.


Well I guess that's one way to say things have 'changed'.
by TxDem08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can progressives ever be united? (2.00 / 1)

I would say no.  Unfortunately people are the left seem to get more focused on single issues and will never unite.

I agree that there are a lot of 'progressives' (for whatever that really means) who are not supportive of Obama.  I don't expect that all of them will vote for him either, I just don't accept them if they say they will vote McCain.   If they were really supportive of those causes, they would vote McKinney or someone else on the left.

My issue is people who say the are Democrats, but will still vote McCain.  There is nothing about McCain that has anything to do with Democratic policies of the last 30 years.


by gavoter on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:16:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can progressives ever be united? (2.00 / 1)

I agree.  If you want to vote McKinney or even Nader or just not vote in the Prez election, that's your right.  Not smart, but your right.  However, crossing over to give McCain your vote out of spite is really, really wrong, just based on personal beliefs if they were DEM's.

Vote anyone, but McCain if you're not voting Obama.

So at least on this single issue we are in complete agreement.


Well I guess that's one way to say things have 'changed'.
by TxDem08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So there are couple of questions for you.... (2.00 / 3)

The Progressive movement is against McCain. I personally think that doing everything in my power to ensure that McCain is never president is a noble goal in and of iteself.

To say the progressive movement shattered is ridiculous, it's just not as powerful as many had hoped. We weren't able to get a progressive nominee, but that isn't earth shattering. Most progressives realize our hope lies in Congress. Obama won't obstruct progressive legislation and if we can enact some popular progressive policies (e.g., universal healthcare) then we can push Obama to the left.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So there are couple of questions for you.... (2.00 / 1)

We weren't able to get a truly progressive nominee because there was not a legitimate progressive in the field. It isn't like we backed one and lost. There was not one to back.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed. (2.00 / 2)

That's why this shouldn't be a big deal at this point. Edwards was the most progressive, but he had to be converted, and a lot of progressives didn't trust him because of it.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:54:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So there are couple of questions for you.... (none / 0)

Are most behind Obama, sure.  Would they be behind any DEM candidate, obviously they would.  So, to say that they are behind HIM is not simply accurate.  They are supporting the DEM candidate.

Sure, but that would be true of Clinton as well, and probably moreso.  Neither one of them were the progressive's choice.

But to argue that the progressive movement is shattered into warring pro-Obama or pro-Clinton factions is silly.  Why would the left wing of the party be feuding over which non-left-wing person to back from two very similar choices?


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:28:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where's Bob Graham? He's perfect! (2.00 / 2)

Bob Gramam's Wiki Bio underscores the heading of my comment!

Here's just one paragraph from it:


As Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Graham opposed the War in Iraq for fear it would divert U.S. attention from the fight in Afghanistan. After carefully reviewing information and meeting with military leaders in February 2002, he decided the war would be a "distraction" that would end poorly. He continues to oppose the Iraq War today.

And, as far as age is concerned, IMHO, it's an awesome counterbalance to Obama's youth.

Frankly, it's the lack of discussion of Graham that leads me to believe he may be the real dark horse in this race.


by bobswern on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:02:52 PM EST

Re: Where's Bob Graham? He's perfect! (2.00 / 1)

Wow, I hadn't thought of him at all.  That would be great.


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where's Bob Graham? He's perfect! (none / 0)

The only problem with Graham is that he's as old as McCain is. So for that reason I don't think he'll be the choice.


by Angry White Democrat on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:36:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton not VP? (2.00 / 1)

I don't buy the notion that Obama would only choose Bayh out of purely "calculating" motives, while sugar, spice, and all things nice motivate the selection of Kaine. There's no evidence that Obama and Bayh don't get along; in fact that the preponderance of evidence is that they get along just fine and share many things in common, especially consensus-building political instincts. Bayh is also someone with an ample amount of political and governing experience. Bayh's been a two-term governor. Bayh's studied national security issues fairly in-depth through his Senate committee work. Bayh widely acknowledged to be a plausible president, sidestepping the issue of whether you'd actually want him to be President. A very large factor driving a Kaine selection would be the desire to win Virginia. Bayh is not expected to deliver Indiana in the same way Kaine would be with repect to his state.

I like Kaine, and think he quite possibly may be the better VP pick over Bayh, given the circumstances. But it's not fair to treat Bayh as if there's a little horned devil sitting on Barack's shoulder naughtily whispering Evan Bayh's name into his ear.


by blueflorida on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:03:20 PM EST

Please, explain why not Sebelius? (2.00 / 1)

She's an ultra-popular red state governor who was against the war from the start. She has executive experience and would help the whole outsider/change meme. I think she's the best pick left regardless of her sex.

Why shouldn't she be considered because she is woman? Isn't that blatant sexism?

I'm sorry I've read your bullshit "Two prominent female Democrats is unthinkable." line too many times. You do realize the majority of voters in the Democratic primary were women, right? They aren't a special interest group. They're half the population.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:10:38 PM EST

Family issues, maybe (none / 0)

I don't know the details but her son got into some serious trouble after she was elected.


by RandyMI on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:39:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Family issues, maybe (none / 0)

I hadn't read that before. That may be a legitmate reason, but I still don't buy the "no woman, but Clinton" line. I think it's just a threat to help push Clinton into the #2 spot. It's also disturbing because of the blatant sexism.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please, explain why not Sebelius? (none / 0)

"I'm sorry I've read your bullshit "Two prominent female Democrats is unthinkable." line too many times."

What bullshit are you making up this time?


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please, explain why not Sebelius? (2.00 / 0)

This bullshit was all yours, I'm afraid.

The choice of either Sebelius or McCaskill is a move of simpatico, but it's very difficult to believe that Obama is going to have Clinton speak on Tuesday, and a different woman as VP on Wednesday. The comparison will be the story, which is not good.

It just doesn't make sense, and you've repeated it endlessly. The media will play the "Why not Clinton?" angle even if a man is picked. They will look for/manufacture controversy either way.

Why shouldn't there be multiple prominent women in a party that is majority female? It's just sexist to say Sebelius must wait her turn because we already have one woman in the upper-echelon of the party.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:51:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please, explain why not Sebelius? (2.00 / 0)

Jerome likes the fact that Sen Clinton broke the glass ceiling, but wants a new glass ceiling right below her.  "No females allowed except for Hillary" I guess.


I voted for Hillary!
by deepee on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:03:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please, explain why not Sebelius? (2.00 / 0)

That is certainly how it appears. I think it would be great. I'm sure both women would litter their speeches with praise for the other. The media will do it's thing no matter what. We've read for over a month about how polls showing Obama leading are good for McCain, so should we really worry about how the VP pick will play in the media.

Kaine and Bayh will be painted as complete pander picks for Virginia and Indiana respectively. The media will tell what is wrong with the choice no matter what. Go with the best choice.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:07:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Liar (1.00 / 0)

Just cause Markos creates a red herring doesn't mean you need to repeat it.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Liar (2.00 / 0)

It actually appears to be the best explanation. You're whole argument seems to be that it's some evil plot to snub Clinton by choosing someone else of the same sex as her. That only makes any sense if the only reason for choosing a woman candidate is their sex. The whole thing is just stupid and sexist.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:18:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Liar (2.00 / 0)

Do you apply your rule to men as well, or just women?  Were you upset that Carter chose a male (Mondale) for VP after a close primary with another male (Hart)?

This has nothing to do with your blogger wars with Markos btw.


I voted for Hillary!
by deepee on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not this time (none / 0)

But if Clinton's not the first female President, her run has made it easier for other women to succeed, and I am sure that she would wholeheartedly support them*.  But not this year.  She is the history-making woman of 2008.  

*Unless they were fervently campaigning against her in the primary.


by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:55:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not this time (none / 0)

But if Clinton's not the first female President, her run has made it easier for other women to succeed, and I am sure that she would wholeheartedly support them*.  But not this year.  She is the history-making woman of 2008.  

Unless they were fervently campaigning against her in the primary.


by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:55:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please, explain why not Sebelius? (2.00 / 1)

"you've repeated it endlessly."

You've struck out again bullshitter, would you care to find where I've said it "endlessly"?

I haven't been convinced that it matters either way, but within the context of Tuesday night Clinton and Wednesday night Sebelius, it's bound to create a lot of bad stories. How?

Both from Clinton haters that will come out saying "Sebelius-- she has many of Hillary's strengths....but none of the baggage". And from Clinton lovers we will hear the endless "she's not near as good" stuff. It will be the story out of the convention.

Mostly though, I get the sense that Clinton haters just want Obama to twist the knife one more time into the Clintons, so they want Sebelius.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please, explain why not Sebelius? (none / 0)

The use of "endlessly" was hyperbole, and not meant to imply that you have literally continously made this argument without stopping.

Here's the rub:

Mostly though, I get the sense that Clinton haters just want Obama to twist the knife one more time into the Clintons, so they want Sebelius.

That is just plain paranoid. I agree with Bower's Sebelius by elimination argument. But, Bowers is probably just a hater like everyone who didn't support Clinton in the primary.


The truth about John McCain.
by Jawis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:15:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree - the "isn't it sexist" (1.00 / 0)

not to support another woman is just the veil that Clinton haters use in their gleeful hopes that Obama twists that knife and throws salt in the wounds.  For what?  A small-state governor who ran with a Republican and has no foreign policy experience?


by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:57:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please, explain why not Sebelius? (2.00 / 0)

"I get the sense that Clinton haters just want Obama to twist the knife one more time into the Clintons, so they want Sebelius."

Maybe, just maybe, Obama might pick her because 1) he likes her and thinks he could work with her personally 2) she endorsed him early on 3) she's a pragmatic progressive 4) she has executive experience 5) she's from a red state 6) she's actually not a bad speaker (Democratic response aside)

Why is it always about Hillary?  


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 05:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well Tim Kaine was on Charlie Rose yesterday.. (2.00 / 2)

Did a good prop for Obama. But didn't impress me with his nuanced passive anti-choice posture. He supports "partial birth" abortion ban, wants to impose parental notification for teens (doesn't matter if the parents are the ones who are abusing the kid, I suppose), wants women to listen to alternatives and other things about the procedure before undergoing the operation (Did Kaine underwent ever a long moral lecture before he undergoes a critical surgery which required a lot of emotion to agree to..). He didn't want anything that would criminalize abortion.
But then his resume about his missionary days in Guatemala, his work with both sides of the aisle in Richmond is surely laudable.
by louisprandtl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:13:23 PM EST

Sebelius is the best choice, gender (2.00 / 1)

excluded as a factor.

The only people who will gripe about it being her instead of Clinton are the same-old deadend whiners.  


by Geekesque on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:17:39 PM EST

She's not even the best choice among women (1.00 / 0)


by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:59:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's not even the best choice among women (none / 0)

"even"


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 05:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, as there are half as many women (none / 0)

as human beings overall.


by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:30:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton not VP? (2.00 / 1)

Just a couple of observations from me.

First the Clinton/Gore combo was a purely political "shotgun" arrangement, also the same for Bush/Cheney.

I don't think she'll be the VP choice, however as some are pointing out, Tue. night will be the anniversary of women getting the right to vote.  Both have declared their candidacy as ground breaking and not the same old usual politics.  What better way to  continue the theme, if he does select her as VP, to have her give the speech on Tue. night after chosing her and breaking tradition.

Just my $.02


Well I guess that's one way to say things have 'changed'.
by TxDem08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:18:47 PM EST

Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

Clinton/Gore, no, Gore ran in '88, Clinton in '92. It was very much of a reinforcing ticket.

I think you misunderstood it.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:46:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We have a history of not fielding the strongest (none / 0)

team don't we?..Whereas Republicans will twitch their nose, bent their lips but would field the strongest team...


by louisprandtl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:57:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

If he gives her the tuesday speech AND picks her for VP that would be showing a lot of class on his behalf and would be LEAPS LEAPS LEAPS and bounds towards making her folk love him.  It also would be a pretty astute political move.

I don't think thats what is happening at this point but there is a thread of Clinton for VP actions starting with her girl going as VP assistant.

If she was wanting to mend fences with her girl Patti what better way than to send her on to a job that will fix any damage to her resume created in the primary.

If the Clinton-Obama talks (the first one) included a commitment for Clinton to be VP this would all make sense.

Again I don't think Obama has the political touch to see outside his bubble and realize its still going to be a VERY close election.  And as such I believe his isn't picking Hillary.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

Good argument.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:30:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Completely off the wall (none / 0)

What if he goes completely off the wall and chooses Colin Powell.

Now you have two Black men on the same ticket

Colin Powell was never a 'real' Republican anyway and there has always been that rumor that his wife is a pretty strong Democrat.

We know that he was kicked out of the Bush Administration because he was not a team player and that he really was used by Cheney and Bolton to help sell the war.

We know that Powell has been pro-choice, is not an NRA gun nut, and has supported affirmative action.  I do realize that DADT is a major albatross around his neck.

I am just wondering what people would think of that choice.


by gavoter on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:34:39 PM EST

Re: Completely off the wall (none / 0)

I like Powell and think he's overall a good guy. But his UN speech the justified the invasion of Iraq ruined his political career, especially with Democrats, and even more especially with a candidate running from President who has a big selling point of always being against the war.


by PSUdan on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:08:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Best part of the Internet? (2.00 / 2)

It Remembers Everything.

"I was never a big fan of Clinton and Obama teaming up"

http://jerome-armstrong.mydd.com/story/2 008/6/16/12637/1156
http://jerome-armstrong.mydd.com/story/2 008/5/30/12456/3376
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/6/3/21513 /95522
http://jerome-armstrong.mydd.com/story/2 008/5/27/10831/4557

Smoking Gun:
http://jerome-armstrong.mydd.com/story/2 008/5/11/45229/4976

"I do believe the chatter that the Obama's detest everything about the Clinton's and though its the best ticket, it won't happen unless its forced upon Obama by the SD's."

I don't understand, Jerome.  Who are you trying to convince?  Us?  Or yourself?

By the way, there are more posts like all of those, by you, but I chose not to go further back.  And yes, there are a few posts between those in which you say you are uncaring either way, but that sounds more like Emo pouting than an actual assessment of the situation..

So what the heck, dude? Did you forget how you felt, or did you choose to ignore it?


by mrrara on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:40:27 PM EST

Re: The Best part of the Internet? (2.00 / 1)

It is the best ticket to win, that's still the case. But that doesn't mean its the one that I think is necessary.

I have no problem with saying I can see both sides of the coin on this one.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Daschle (none / 0)

I believe it is going to be Daschle-

Obama said on MTP that he wanted someone who could help him get things done-

Kaine seems to be more of a funeral-type veep.  

Daschle is his mentor, someone who obviously has experience in Washington, and seems to fit his criteria- Kaine is probably a fake out for Daschle.


by Bob Beard on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:44:19 PM EST

Re: Daschle (none / 0)

That would go over like a lead balloon.


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:33:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

or under... (none / 0)

like a submarine with screen doors.


"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive." -Thomas Jefferson
by Nag on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:12:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton not VP? (2.00 / 2)

Carter didn't pick Kennedy and that turned out ok maybe there is nothing to worry about.

President Rush Limbaugh in 2012 shouldn't too much of a problem.

History does repeat itself you know...


by dtaylor2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:46:26 PM EST

Re: Clinton not VP? (2.00 / 2)

Good point, but he probably should have.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton not VP? (2.00 / 1)

Honestly from a liberal vs moderate issue its better for the DLC wing for him to pick pelosi or whoever and go down in flames.

But more and more I find myself a Clinton democrat with less and less attraction to the pelosi, dean, obama wing or even the DLC wing per say as I don't see any stars there with the amazing Clinton touch for getting it right.  And I see the Clinton brand as stronger as his VP.   41% of presidents in the last 100 years were vp first.

Win or lose Obama and friends can't spin after Jan if they go without Hillary.

Victory could be their greatest defeat as it was for Republicans when a very popular George Bush Jr won in 2000 or for Dems when a confident Carter won in 1976.

Its possible that Obama never having done anything of great significance really does understand politics and foreign policy better than everyone else and will have the economy and foreign affairs running smoothly.  

But history is pretty clear regarding the usual results when an inexperienced person believes that they are the best decider and everyone else just doesn't get it.  Usually everyone else just knows things that the young upstart doesn't.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:04:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Head fake (none / 0)

It'll be someone out of left field, like Chet Edwards.


by bobestes on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 12:48:55 PM EST

Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

Excellent post Jerome!  Got your groove back?


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:54:48 PM EST

Obama Never Considered a Woman for VP (2.00 / 1)

Why? because the conventional wisdom is that running an African-American and a woman on the national ticket just doesn't go well with mainstream America. Change, yes, but not too much change. Thus, Obama was going to pick a white male as VP.

Obama in an interview said that he was going with a simpitaco stategy. Thus, Kaine appears to be the VP nominee. However, with the exception of Mondale in 1984, every Democratic nominee since at least Stevenson has picked a senator. This would indicate Evan Bayh. But Obama wants to pick a newcomer to reinforce his message of change and Bayh has been both a governor and senator.

I'm not sure how a simpatico choice works in an year where there was a very competitive primary. Yes, Clinton chose Gore in 1992, but Clinton wrapped up the nomination fairly early. Hillary is probably politically Obama's best choice for VP. Unfortunately, it's very hard for the nominee to pick their main rival as VP because too many grudges between the candidates build up. In addition, the conventional wisdom is that there must be at least one white male on the ticket.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:59:41 PM EST

Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

Clinton needs to be on the Supreme Court . . . not in the VPresidency.  She can do MUCH more for America on the Court


Scy
by scytherius on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:59:41 PM EST

Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

she does not have any kind of distinguished legal background


by whothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:13:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

Clinton as VP will energize the base and bring up all the old Whitewater gossip. Even though there was no basis for any of the investigation, many people who don't follow news closely never got the message. Clinton would make a great Supreme
Court justice, and I'd hope for that.
SMH
by bigcatlover on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:27:05 PM EST

Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

You have to be a judge to be a supreme court justice now.


by whothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 04:13:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton not VP? (none / 0)

Correction: Should have read "energize the GOP base." Sorry.


SMH
by bigcatlover on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 02:27:49 PM EST

Re: Clinton not VP? (2.00 / 1)

Freud got your fingers.

Hillary would energize the Democratic base.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton not VP? (2.00 / 1)

Hmm interesting...

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/ 2008/07/clinton-to-intr.html


by dtaylor2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 03:51:37 PM EST

Re: Clinton not VP? (2.00 / 1)

No Hillary NO Bama

He won't win without her.

she has too many pissed off supporters, the puma blogs are growing - they are getting angrier and they are getting organized.

He will be fighting both McCain AND Clinton supporters til November.....

He's making a HUGE mistake if he doesn't pick her.

If he'd actually WON it would be different, but since she got the actual votes of over half the party - it just doesn't make sense to piss off that many people.....

He can skip to the whitehouse if he picked Hillary, Puma would go down and he would prove once and for all that he IS a Unifier NOT the divider he is turning out to be.


by nikkid on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:53:07 AM EST


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