Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq

As you may have heard, the NY Times recently published an OPed by Sen. Obama detailing his plans for Iraq.  It then declined to publish an OPEd by Sen. McCain, citing his refusal to define a victory in concrete terms, and to lay out a clear plan for achieving victory with timetables.  .

Sen. McCain's text was published by CNN (I have included copies of both OPeds below).

A summary of the two OpEds:

(a) Sen. Obama faults Sen. McCain for supporting the invasion in 2002.  
(b) Sen. McCain faults Sen. Obama for opposing the surge last year.
(c) Sen. Obama does not lay out any plan for a victory in Iraq.  He does not define victory in Iraq.
(d) Sen. McCain does not lay out any plan for a victory in Iraq.  He does not define victory in Iraq.
(e) Sen. Obama pledges to pull out in 18 months, while taking the realities on the ground into account.
(f) Sen. McCain pledges to pull out before the end of his first time, while taking the realities on the ground into account.
(g) Sen. Obama faults Sen. McCain for not wanting to "end the war".  Sen. McCain rips Sen. Obama for pretending that Sen. McCain does not want to end the war.
(h) Sen. McCain faults Sen. Obama for wanting to surrender.  Sen. Obama rips Sen. McCain for pretending that Sen. Obama wants to surrender.
 

Sen. McCain's OPEd


 In January 2007, when General David Petraeus took command in Iraq, he called the situation "hard" but not "hopeless." Today, 18 months later, violence has fallen by up to 80% to the lowest levels in four years, and Sunni and Shiite terrorists are reeling from a string of defeats. The situation now is full of hope, but considerable hard work remains to consolidate our fragile gains.

Progress has been due primarily to an increase in the number of troops and a change in their strategy. I was an early advocate of the surge at a time when it had few supporters in Washington. Senator Barack Obama was an equally vocal opponent. "I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there," he said on January 10, 2007. "In fact, I think it will do the reverse."

Now Senator Obama has been forced to acknowledge that "our troops have performed brilliantly in lowering the level of violence." But he still denies that any political progress has resulted.

Perhaps he is unaware that the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad has recently certified that, as one news article put it, "Iraq has met all but three of 18 original benchmarks set by Congress last year to measure security, political and economic progress." Even more heartening has been progress that's not measured by the benchmarks. More than 90,000 Iraqis, many of them Sunnis who once fought against the government, have signed up as Sons of Iraq to fight against the terrorists. Nor do they measure Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki's new-found willingness to crack down on Shiite extremists in Basra and Sadr City?actions that have done much to dispel suspicions of sectarianism.

The success of the surge has not changed Senator Obama's determination to pull out all of our combat troops. All that has changed is his rationale. In a New York Times op-ed and a speech this week, he offered his "plan for Iraq" in advance of his first "fact finding" trip to that country in more than three years. It consisted of the same old proposal to pull all of our troops out within 16 months. In 2007 he wanted to withdraw because he thought the war was lost. If we had taken his advice, it would have been. Now he wants to withdraw because he thinks Iraqis no longer need our assistance.

To make this point, he mangles the evidence. He makes it sound as if Prime Minister Maliki has endorsed the Obama timetable, when all he has said is that he would like a plan for the eventual withdrawal of U.S. troops at some unspecified point in the future.

Senator Obama is also misleading on the Iraqi military's readiness. The Iraqi Army will be equipped and trained by the middle of next year, but this does not, as Senator Obama suggests, mean that they will then be ready to secure their country without a good deal of help. The Iraqi Air Force, for one, still lags behind, and no modern army can operate without air cover. The Iraqis are also still learning how to conduct planning, logistics, command and control, communications, and other complicated functions needed to support frontline troops.

No one favors a permanent U.S. presence, as Senator Obama charges. A partial withdrawal has already occurred with the departure of five "surge" brigades, and more withdrawals can take place as the security situation improves. As we draw down in Iraq, we can beef up our presence on other battlefields, such as Afghanistan, without fear of leaving a failed state behind. I have said that I expect to welcome home most of our troops from Iraq by the end of my first term in office, in 2013.

But I have also said that any draw-downs must be based on a realistic assessment of conditions on the ground, not on an artificial timetable crafted for domestic political reasons. This is the crux of my disagreement with Senator Obama.

Senator Obama has said that he would consult our commanders on the ground and Iraqi leaders, but he did no such thing before releasing his "plan for Iraq." Perhaps that's because he doesn't want to hear what they have to say. During the course of eight visits to Iraq, I have heard many times from our troops what Major General Jeffrey Hammond, commander of coalition forces in Baghdad, recently said: that leaving based on a timetable would be "very dangerous."

The danger is that extremists supported by Al Qaeda and Iran could stage a comeback, as they have in the past when we've had too few troops in Iraq. Senator Obama seems to have learned nothing from recent history. I find it ironic that he is emulating the worst mistake of the Bush administration by waving the "Mission Accomplished" banner prematurely.

I am also dismayed that he never talks about winning the war?only of ending it. But if we don't win the war, our enemies will. A triumph for the terrorists would be a disaster for us. That is something I will not allow to happen as president. Instead I will continue implementing a proven counterinsurgency strategy not only in Iraq but also in Afghanistan with the goal of creating stable, secure, self-sustaining democratic allies.

Sen. Obama's OPEd on Iraq


The call by Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki for a timetable for the removal of American troops from Iraq presents an enormous opportunity. We should seize this moment to begin the phased redeployment of combat troops that I have long advocated, and that is needed for long-term success in Iraq and the security interests of the United States.

The differences on Iraq in this campaign are deep. Unlike Senator John McCain, I opposed the war in Iraq before it began, and would end it as president. I believed it was a grave mistake to allow ourselves to be distracted from the fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban by invading a country that posed no imminent threat and had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. Since then, more than 4,000 Americans have died and we have spent nearly $1 trillion. Our military is overstretched. Nearly every threat we face -- from Afghanistan to Al Qaeda to Iran -- has grown.

In the 18 months since President Bush announced the surge, our troops have performed heroically in bringing down the level of violence. New tactics have protected the Iraqi population, and the Sunni tribes have rejected Al Qaeda -- greatly weakening its effectiveness.

But the same factors that led me to oppose the surge still hold true. The strain on our military has grown, the situation in Afghanistan has deteriorated and we've spent nearly $200 billion more in Iraq than we had budgeted. Iraq's leaders have failed to invest tens of billions of dollars in oil revenues in rebuilding their own country, and they have not reached the political accommodation that was the stated purpose of the surge.

The good news is that Iraq's leaders want to take responsibility for their country by negotiating a timetable for the removal of American troops. Meanwhile, Lt. Gen. James Dubik, the American officer in charge of training Iraq's security forces, estimates that the Iraqi Army and police will be ready to assume responsibility for security in 2009.

Only by redeploying our troops can we press the Iraqis to reach comprehensive political accommodation and achieve a successful transition to Iraqis' taking responsibility for the security and stability of their country. Instead of seizing the moment and encouraging Iraqis to step up, the Bush administration and Senator McCain are refusing to embrace this transition -- despite their previous commitments to respect the will of Iraq's sovereign government. They call any timetable for the removal of American troops "surrender," even though we would be turning Iraq over to a sovereign Iraqi government.

But this is not a strategy for success -- it is a strategy for staying that runs contrary to the will of the Iraqi people, the American people and the security interests of the United States. That is why, on my first day in office, I would give the military a new mission: ending this war.

As I've said many times, we must be as careful getting out of Iraq as we were careless getting in. We can safely redeploy our combat brigades at a pace that would remove them in 16 months. That would be the summer of 2010 -- two years from now, and more than seven years after the war began. After this redeployment, a residual force in Iraq would perform limited missions: going after any remnants of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, protecting American service members and, so long as the Iraqis make political progress, training Iraqi security forces. That would not be a precipitous withdrawal.

In carrying out this strategy, we would inevitably need to make tactical adjustments. As I have often said, I would consult with commanders on the ground and the Iraqi government to ensure that our troops were redeployed safely, and our interests protected. We would move them from secure areas first and volatile areas later. We would pursue a diplomatic offensive with every nation in the region on behalf of Iraq's stability, and commit $2 billion to a new international effort to support Iraq's refugees.

Ending the war is essential to meeting our broader strategic goals, starting in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where the Taliban is resurgent and Al Qaeda has a safe haven. Iraq is not the central front in the war on terrorism, and it never has been. As Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, recently pointed out, we won't have sufficient resources to finish the job in Afghanistan until we reduce our commitment to Iraq.

As president, I would pursue a new strategy, and begin by providing at least two additional combat brigades to support our effort in Afghanistan. We need more troops, more helicopters, better intelligence-gathering and more nonmilitary assistance to accomplish the mission there. I would not hold our military, our resources and our foreign policy hostage to a misguided desire to maintain permanent bases in Iraq.

In this campaign, there are honest differences over Iraq, and we should discuss them with the thoroughness they deserve. Unlike Senator McCain, I would make it absolutely clear that we seek no presence in Iraq similar to our permanent bases in South Korea, and would redeploy our troops out of Iraq and focus on the broader security challenges that we face. But for far too long, those responsible for the greatest strategic blunder in the recent history of American foreign policy have ignored useful debate in favor of making false charges about flip-flops and surrender.

It's not going to work this time. It's time to end this war.



Display:


Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (none / 0)

Your point?

Personally having already read McCain's piece there was nothing new in it. It was a rehash of talking points we are all familiar with and have almost got memorized.

And since when is asking for a rewrite a rejection.

And from a purely personal viewpoint I would love to Senator McCain to define in clear terms victory.

Also, you post the entire McCain piece but only your summary of the Obama piece I find your analysis lacking.

Finally if your shilling for McCain I am afraid you want find many takers here.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:18:38 PM EST

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (none / 0)

I did not realize that when I said Sen. McCain does not lay out a plan for victory, that I am shilling for McCain.  Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways.

I think I posted the entire Obama piece, and I also provided a link to it.  If you have a different link, please provide it and I will update my diary.

And from a purely personal viewpoint, I would love to have anyone "define in clear terms victory" (sic).

And finally, when I post diaries, it is not with the intention of finding many takers... that would be somewhat silly, in my opinion!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

I did not realize that when I said Sen. McCain does not lay out a plan for victory, that I am shilling for McCain.

No I owe you an apology I misread that line in your post. Consider this a retraction with a sincere apology.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (none / 0)

Thank you!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:35:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Definition of Victory (2.00 / 1)

I posted this elsewhere but it seems to speak to your point about 'victory':


After waiting for Iraqis to assert themselves for five years we should be seizing this moment.  This is in fact in many ways one of the key elements for "success" - an Iraqi government eager to step up and take control of its own country.  I still can't understand why McCain wouldn't welcome this statement but here are some theories:

   * For years now Iraq diehards like McCain and Bush have had no sense of what victory is in Iraq or how to define.  Now that they are staring it in the face they don't believe it.  They have fought for so long to keep American troops there, that they see any withdrawal as defeat - even if it isn't and even if it comes at the request of the Iraqi Government.  

   * McCain really and truly wants permanent bases in Iraq and wants to use Iraq as a base from which to exert influence across the Middle East.  This is where many of the neocons are and I wouldn't be surprised if McCain agreed.  Of course it is a horrificly bad idea and would only serve as a propaganda tool for Al Qaeda and create animosity across the Arab World

   * McCain has worked himself into such a box throughout the campaign that he has no choice but to keep calling for our troops to stay and to present the Obama position as "surrender."  So he's stuck taking this ridiculous political position because he has no other choice.

Either way you look at it.  If you step back for a second, what we have here is the Iraqis  declaring victory and offering Bush and McCain an "honorable" and responsible way out.  Bush and McCain's response?  No thank you.

Ilan Goldenberg - A Surreal Situation in Iraq Democracy Arsenal 21 July 08

Is the definition of 'victory' really the issue here or does this harken back to the rhetoric which obscured the end of the Viet-Nam war?  Did we achieve 'peace with honour' there after all?  Is the very notion of 'victory' a valid context in to which our next few years actions in Iraq should be placed?

And if the Iraqis are ready and willing to 'stand up' why in the world wouldn't we welcome the opportunity to 'stand down?'  Are we still looking for a place to put the 'mission accomplished' banner?


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 05:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (none / 0)

This is, indeed, a good definition:  An Iraqi government eager to step up.

However, I do not believe we are there yet.  Or, I have a suspicion about the words uttered by Maliki.

The Shia have been making some noise about wanting an American withdrawal for quite some time.. since 2003, if you count Muqtada Sadr as a spokesman for Shia interest.

However, this desire (at least in the past) for American withdrawal was borne out of a wish to take care of the problem (i.e., the Sunnis) without American interference.  

I am suspicious of what is going on...

   


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 05:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (2.00 / 1)

Well, the Sunni/Shi'a tension is always going to be a problem, isn't it?  Our solution was to co-opt some Sunni tribal leaders and abandon the rest.  There is a Sunni minority faction which has just rejoined Maliki's coalition government and tacitly endorsed their position.  There are Sunnis who oppose it because they think they are going to get big-footed by a Shi'a government and they have a valid point.  They're probably right.

So when was 'nation building' in Iraq not going to create this dynamic?  It was our idea to install a democracy in a majority Shi'a nation, against the advice and pleas of our European allies who knew better.  And we are complaining about Iran's increased regional influence?  With a newly minted Shi'a majority state on their doorstep?  C'mon, we aren't going to put that genie back in the bottle.  

Frankly I think Obama is doing a pretty credible job of articulating a workable solution in the whole region, under the circumstances.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (2.00 / 1)

The Sunni/Shia tension is always going to be a problem.  The question is whether it will be a manageable problem or not.

The parallel is the Hindu/Muslim problem in India.  I was born in India to parents who are devout Hindus.  Yet, I was "baptized" as a Muslim... and the problem becomes manageable.

It will take a long time to manage such problems down to a manageable levels.  And yes, nationbuilding in Iraq was always going to create this dyanmic... Gen Shinseki's words were true back in 2002 as well.

The solution is to foster the institutions of democracy before you hold elections.... and so:  yes, the US plan was boneheaded.  But even so, while you cannot undo the past, you can also not use the past as an excuse.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:17:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (2.00 / 1)

No excuses, but we can't let all of the idiocy of the Bush administration drag down our foreign policy for a generation.  At some point the Shi'a/Sunni dilemma in Iraq becomes 'domestic' politics for them and regional politics for their immediate neighbours.

I agree that this is a fine line to walk but I am confident that the sixteen months Obama proposes is adequate time to make this transition, especially if they know it is coming and we encourage the Iranians out of the diplomatic wilderness in the meantime.  We simply must deal with Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Pashtun/Taliban issues in the region within the same time frame, wouldn't you agree?


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:35:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (none / 0)

Like it or not, Pres. Bush was a duly elected (and relected) American President.  Future administrations should be (and will be) beholden by actions taken by him (and specially for actions taken with strong public support, and a bipartisan majority support in Congress).

I dont think we can deal with the Afghan/Pakistan tribal areas... specially not in 18 months (and not even in 8 yrs).

I recall you writing somewhere that you were hitchhiking through Afghanistan when the Soviets rolled in, and that you took a bus to the Pakistan border.  So, you must be very familiar with that area.  

Wouldnt you agree that stationing US troops there for 4 years, or even 8 years... will not have the slightest effect ?  Those places need wholescale reform that must come from within... and can only come from within.

I also disagree that we simply must deal with Afghanistan/Pakistan.  We have a moral obligation to help Iraq...because we broke it.  We do not have a moral obligation to help Pakistan/Afghanistan...we did not break it.

We do have a desire to deal with Afghanistan because that is where 9-11 was plotted.  We have a very strong desire ... but it is not a must.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:25:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (none / 0)

I was there when the original coup broke which installed a pro-Soviet regime, the Soviets arrived long after I left.  I think a military victory in Afghanistan is problematic, but an economic and diplomatic one is within reach.  The key remains Pakistan, and that is the Gordian knot of regional politics.  Obama even invoked India as part of the diplomatic equation recently and he has a valid point, the Pakistani Army still has it's collective eyes fixed on Kashmir and entertains notions of an Al-Qaeda affiliated terror campaign there as being in their strategic interests, if you can believe it.  Read up on some of his latest proposals regarding Pakistan, I think he is on the right track.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:47:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (none / 0)

Well, I grew up in India, and my Mother grew up in Pakistan... so, as you can imagine, I read a dozen newspapers from that region every day.

Pakistan is the Gordian know... I absolutely agree.  However, no outside power can impose a solution on Pakistan.  The ruling elite in Pakistan has a very feudal mentality, and democracy has a very tenuous hold.  They need social reform before they can have political reform.  Unfortunately, outsiders cannot force that event.  

So, the only way around is to give them (the Pakistanis) the space to reform from within.  Of course, the trick is to figure out how to minimize the damage caused by miscellaneous elements within Pakistan.  India has borne the brunt of this with Pakistan's policies on Kashmir (and Punjab, and Bangladesh before that).

The solution (in my opinion) is a lot of saber rattling (and an occassional war with very limited objectives), a lot of pressure on military regimes (with less pressure on more democratic regimes), and open information exchange.. and a lot of time!    


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:57:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (none / 0)

Yeah, Pakistani history is no encouragement, that's for sure.  If the American public only knew the half of it they would despair, most likely, and our involvement there has had it's share of impropriety as far as democratic ideals are concerned.

The first step, it seems to me, is to uncouple our considerable military and economic assistance.  Obama has already mooted this point.  We have invested a small fortune in Pakistan in recent years and while arguably necessary it is unclear that we have received a reasonable quid pro quo for that investment.  In the meantime the military have become a major player in all aspects of the Pakistani economy.  It's a tough one.

I have recently finished reading The Clash of Fundamentalisms by Tariq Ali and it is a real eye-opener.  No-one ever said it was going to be easy but the Bush administration has been sticking it's head deeply in the sand on this issue, to our detriment, for two terms.  At least Obama is lifting the veil a bit and seems willing to address the issues.  Curiously, besides India, our most useful potential ally in cutting the Gordian knot of Pakistan is, of all places, Iran.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (none / 0)

Yes, uncoupling military and economic assistance is a good first step.  There is no quid pro quo to be had for the economic assistance (asking for a quid pro quo would be counterproductive).

And yes, I agree that Sen. Obama is more knowledgeable about those issue than most politicians (although Bill Clinton was also very good in that regard).

And yes, I agree that Iran is potentially a very useful ally... not only in Pakistan, but also in the broader war on terror.  Another very important player ~ China.  By contrast, I do not think India (or Iran) has much influence on Pakistan.  The Pakistani elite, and the public really admire the Chinese... because (it seems to them), the Chinese have always been there for them (against India), and the Chinese have never demanded a quid pro quo.

But you are reading Tariq Ali, so I tip my (figurative) hat off to you... I have put it on my Amazon list =)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 01:37:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (none / 0)

Very interesting point about China, I certainly tend to agree but that is a Byzantine foreign policy discussion which probably takes me out of my league.

Always enjoy these discussions as much as we seem to differ at first glance.  I think you will like the Tariq Ali book, it is a bit woolly in places but a ripping good read, I have a signed paperback copy which I devoured in a matter of days.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 02:23:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (none / 0)

Likewise, I have enjoyed every one of your comments... even though we disagree on several points.  

It is better to disagree with a knowledgeable person, than to shill with a fool =)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:22:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definition of Victory (none / 0)

Well, we certainly agree about that.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 04:48:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 1)

The New York Times has been judged for its actions in this matter by its counterparts in the MSM.  Great!  Can we now actually judge the candidates?  This is not a comment on the candidates or their positions.  This is a comment to indict the self-important, substantial influence weilding crap we call MSM.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:26:04 PM EST

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 1)

I think, in my diary, I was attempting to comment on the candidates' positions...

But, I agree with your comment!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:36:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (none / 0)

I know you were.  Found an opportunity, took it.  :)


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:37:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 1)

"And from a purely personal viewpoint, I would love to have anyone "define in clear terms victory" (sic)."

Which is why I have a bit of a problem with your faulting Obama for not doing so, in your point (c.)

It's Bush and McCain that keep calling to WIN this war, for Victory. Let THEM define it, if they can?

Victory in a war we should never have fought, one that had the WRONG or shifting objectives that were all just BS anyway?

Sure, you could define criterion for safely getting our troops out, and for mollifying a bad sitution that we created?

But if I was Obama, I would NEVER say:

Here's how I define Victory in Iraq.

That sublimates his entire message that you can't have a victory in a war that was a mistake to begin with.


On Nov 4th, Barack Obama officially ends the Southern Strategy....
by WashStateBlue on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:30:10 PM EST

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

The problem is, the war has been over for a long time. We're there as peacekeepers, and that's not a war. They can keep talking about it in terms of winning and losing, but that's not what this is. We don't have an enemy right now. And if our enemy WAS Al-Qaeda, then we're assholes for fighting it in Iraq, and Petraeus himself said we needed to moveto afghanistan anyway.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:34:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 1)

If you are there as a peacekeeper, why are you in such a hurry to leave ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

Because there are better uses for our time, money and troops. The War in Iraq is not the war on terror, which most would consider much more important. Perhaps McCain and Bush are only now realizing that Afghanistan needs more resources, but that's been the case for awhile. And until we start getting enough manpower to go into Pakistan ourselves, it will be very difficult to convince Pakistani leaders to put the effort into doing it themselves.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:46:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 1)

You may have better use of your time/money/troops, but you still have obligations that you cannot shirk...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:48:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

Like trillions of dollars in debt?


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:53:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 3)

Yep... and many lives.  And endless misery.

All those obligations come with having initiated a war that did not need to be initiated !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that (none / 0)

sort of Brian Baird's argument.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 12:07:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Pardon my ignorance... (none / 0)

but who is Brian Baird ?

and what is his argument ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 01:41:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He's a Washington Congressman (none / 0)

who opposed the war from the start, but came out against withdrawal last year.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 07:14:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obligations to do what? (2.00 / 1)


by JJE on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obligations to do what? (2.00 / 1)

Obligation to leave Iraq a better place than what it was in 2002....


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Isn't it already? (2.00 / 2)

Saddam is gone and we're told the surge has brought violence down to acceptable levels.

And even if it isn't, what if that goal is not achievable no matter what we do?  Or what if it is exorbitantly costly in both lives and money?  Is there any limit to our obligation or is it absolute?


by JJE on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:25:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No (none / 0)

there is no limit to our obligation...see Korea.

As long as nobody is being killed, the people won't care whether or not we're in Iraq. In my last few weeks in America, I started noticing the public shift in Iraq to be more of a "we're responsible for them" attitude.

I really think McCain is going to end up winning the Iraq argument or Obama is going to move away from his 16 months withdrawal plan.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:48:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not just time (none / 0)

but troop levels and money spent as well.  We have roughly 37,000 troops in S. Korea, far fewer than in Iraq.  The dollar cost is not readily available but I imagine our expenditures in SK are much smaller than they are in Iraq.

I also don't think it's necessarily true that "the people won't care".  There is a lot of resentment of Western military forces stationed in Arab countries.


by JJE on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:16:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not people there (none / 0)

people here.

and actually the more I made the argument that our presence there leads to terrorism, the more I lose people on withdrawing.

It seems people want to do the opposite of what the terrorists want, even if they are, in a sense, right.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 12:06:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't think that's possible (none / 0)

the sooner we accept that, the better we all will feel.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 1)

I agree with you more than this conversation belies. It is a giant mess that we made, and we had to clean it up. It is absolutely fantastic that Bush's decision to pick a strategy that would give all of America the middle finger proved to be a winning one.

BUT... the situation that led us all to call for withdrawal in 2004 has not changed, it has worsened. Afghanistan is MORE unstable. Pakistan is MORE unstable. Iran is MORE unstable. By stabilizing Iraq (to assuage the ego and the conscience of the President), we let the region just keep getting worse and worse. And now, because of our continued entanglement in Iraq, there is a very real possibility of nuclear war between Iran and Israel before the year ends. Could Iran have done it anyway had we left Iraq in 2004? Perhaps. But we would be in a better position and pose a bigger threat.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

Thank you for this comment.

I do not think additional troops are what is needed for Afghanistan and Pakistan.  Those countries need a lot of time and a lot of space without outside interference.  Portions of Afghanistan and Western Pakistan will always be a certain way ~ the terrain influences the man, to a large extent.  However, other portions of Pakistan (and Afghanistan) need a lot of reform that can only play out in it's own course... in about 25-50 years.

My Mother grew up in Western Pakistan (her family moved out in the 1940s), so I am very familiar with that regions history, and it's problems.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:05:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (none / 0)

Thank you for the comments, these are things that need to be talked about on here. The dangers are definitely there in putting troops in those regions. There's a reason they hide out there. But even David Petraeus now agrees that we need our military in Afghanistan, and I've heard that mentioned for months now.

But we need to regroup and refocus. I think we need to have as specific a focus as possible. Bin Laden, Al Qaeda. And not by creating new versions, the real deal. Whatever strategy we have should include considerations about the growing extremism in Europe as well. I think it's entirely possible that the next big attack by Al-Qaeda being plotted will not take place here, it will take place in Europe in an attempt to rally those extremists together.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:21:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 1)

Oops.  I think you just stepped on your own toes.  Didn't Afghanistan have "lot of time and a lot of space without outside interference when the Soviets left?  Didn't homegrown supplants overtake the country and government, suppressing human rights and providing safe haven to those the world now calls terrorists?  Without NATO/American intervention, the Taliban would still be in control of this country in the 20-25 years you state is necessary for transition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:22:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (none / 0)

Actually, Afghanistan has had no time, and no space to do anything without outside interference since 1973.

The "homegrown supplants" that you refer to, were actually students trained in Pakistan. And they were an essential element of Pakistan's strategy of "depth" in it's struggle with India...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

The border distinction between Afghanistan and Pakistan is fuzzy, at best.  The Taliban, trained in Afghanistan and/or Pakistan, overran the minimalist Aghanistan government.  
The distinction here, IMO, is the war in Iraq, is distincly different than the war in Afghanistan.  The two cannot be lumped together.  Withdrawal of troops from Iraq cannot be equated to withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan as these "military actions" each have different missions.
Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:43:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 1)

Hey, I took part in many anti-war protests back in 2002.... I understand the angst.  As I recall, we were called traitors back then..

It may have been a war of choice, but it was "our" choice.  Having made that choice, we cannot pretend that "we" did not make that choice.

Having initiated the war, it is "our" responsibility to end it responsibly... and that usually means with a victory.  

If you do not like "victory", then dont use that word.  But please provide an end goal.

What will Iraq look like in 2013?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 3)

Victory is a straw man drawn up to give them time to keep the troops in. We are not fighting a war in Iraq, we are fighting a war on Terror. And in that war, we are way, way behind where we need to be.

Do not ask "how can we win in iraq", ask "how can we win in the war on terror". Perhaps the NYT didn't realize that's what they meant, but I think that is what they meant.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:41:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 1)

You are not asking all questions that need to be asked, in my opinion.

How can we win the war on terror may have been the only question that needed to be asked in 2001/2002.  However, having initiated a war in Iraq (once again, by choice), you have a new obligation now.

And as per that obligation, you should ask:

"How can you leave Iraq a better place than what it was in 2002"

If you do not ask that question, you will be shirking your moral responsibility.  And in doing so, you will deserve to lose...not just in Iraq, but also the broader war on terror.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:45:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

If you mean better place for Iraq, right now, it is at the best place we can get it. And if you mean for everyone, there's just no way. Saddam Hussein, as bad a man as he was, was the one thing that kept balance with Iran in the middle east. That is now gone, and in fact, it seems as if it might actually join forces with Iran in a number of ways.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:53:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

While it is wonderful... (2.00 / 2)

that you have a feeling of responsibility concerning  Iraq, what Iraq looks like in 2013 isn't something the USofA gets to choose.  The Pottery Barn analogy is false, if you break something at Pottery Barn you buy it, because it was for sale and you have reduced Pottery Barn's ability to profit from the sale of the broken item.  Iraq isn't/wasn't for sale we, the USofA, don't own it.  There is no possible victory for us, there never was.  Iraq can and is losing, but that doesn't mean we are winning anything, it isn't really a contest like that.  
By being the illegal aggressor in this military action, we do have a responsibility to help Iraq become whole again.  We don't have any right to choose what that means, we have to, if we wish to act honorably at all, do what they would like us to do.  One of those things seems to be to get out of there with our imperialistic army.  And, yes we owe them resources to rebuild, but again if we are directing the rebuilding we are just continuing to perpetrate our crime against Iraq and it's people.
by tonedevil on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:05:14 PM EST

It is great... (none / 0)

that you profess so much respect for the Iraqi wish.

However, you should be somewhat careful in using that respect to shirk your responsibility.  You absolutely have a say in what Iraq looks like in 2013.  

You broke something.  Granted you do not own what you broke, and you cannot buy what you broke, and you cannot fix what you broke.  But you broke it nevertheless.

Thus, it is your responsibility to stick around and to provide an opportunity for those pieces to fix themselves.

Leave too soon, and those pieces will be broken forever.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:12:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No... (2.00 / 1)

You absolutely have a say in what Iraq looks like in 2013.
Just because the country of which I am a citizen illegally invaded and now illegally occupies Iraq doesn't give me or any of my fellow citizens a say in what Iraq looks like in 2013.  Or at least it shouldn't I am not saying shirk responsibility I am saying illegally invading a country doesn't give you any legitimate right to tell them what to do or how to do it.  In fact if the country and it's citizens, that are the invading force, wish to display any honor they will do only as the victims of their egregious aggressiveness ask of them.  
Would you suggest that the victim of a mugger rebuild their life according to the muggers advice?
by tonedevil on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No... (2.00 / 1)

You do not have a say, but you have an obligation...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:34:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No... (2.00 / 1)

You do not have a say, but you have an obligation...
What's with the "you" stuff? Shouldn't that be "we"?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:39:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No... (none / 0)

I have not forgotten mine, you have forgotten yours!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I had forgotten... (2.00 / 1)

you are the final arbitrator of obligations.  Not only are you arrogant enough to declare what obligations a person may have, but you are only too happy to remind them they have failed you.


by tonedevil on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 04:38:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I had forgotten... (2.00 / 1)

I apologize, that was over the top...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 05:00:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Our passions... (none / 0)

frequently get the better of us.  I know I am no exception.


by tonedevil on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 05:02:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and we've done all we could do (none / 0)

it's time to ween Iraq off our teat. We can't defend them forever, as it seems you think we should.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:46:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

Victory was achieved in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was tried and convicted. Everything that has happened since then has not been the Iraq war. It has been one front in the misnamed War on Terror.

I have a few questions for you.

Who is the enemy in Iraq?
What will victory mean?
Where will Iraq be in 2013, 2025, 2100, 2500, or 3000 A.D.?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:18:41 PM EST

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (none / 0)

I have a suggestion for you.

Why dont you direct those questions to those who are seeking your vote.

I am not!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

They aren't the ones who wrote a diary that raised no questions and offered no solutions.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:41:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (none / 0)

I agree with your priorities...

Ask questions of a diarist that points out the silliness in two opeds, but ask no questions of two candidates that seek to be your Commander in Chief.

That is how things are done, I suppose !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:49:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

The two candidates aren't participating in the discussion thread for this diary. Another non-answer.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:52:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (none / 0)

So here is another suggestion... why dont you go participate in a discussion thread where you can ask questions of those who want to be your Commander.

Why are you wasting your time with my non-answers !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:55:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (2.00 / 2)

You are beginning to remind me of someone who talks just to hear the sound of their own voice. You did this same thing in another discussion we had on this site. I'm beginning to think you are typing out your replies and then reading them to yourself out loud. That's the only thing I can think of that explains your answers. They are certainly devoid of content.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 04:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen McCain and Sen. Obama on Iraq (none / 0)

And you are beginning to remind me of someone I know... I wont go into the details beyond that !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 05:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As long as the body count is low (none / 0)

I don't think people care how long we're there for.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:44:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As long as the body count is low (none / 0)

As long as we are paying 10-20 billion a month in Iraq people will care.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, they don't (none / 0)

that's not money they see. It's not literally coming out of their pockets and if it is, we're not making it clear that it is.

The only thing left for us is to try to directly connect the war with economic woes.

Before I left the country, I began to see a complacency with Iraq, a feeling of "whatever it takes" I don't know if it's because we picked candidates and anti-war voters who don't like Obama suddenly found themselves defending the war because they didn't have the candidate who was against it or what, but I started hearing people who have been reliably anti-war because remarkably pro-staying in Iraq.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:55:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A few quibbles (2.00 / 2)

1) Sen McCain must define "victory", since he seeks to achieve it. Sen Obama merely needs to define "16 month withdrawal" as that is HIS goal.

2) Every paragraph of McCain's Op-Ed (past the second) refers to Obama. Only 1 or 2 of Obama's paragraphs refer to McCain.

This casts the op-eds in vastly different lights. Obama's mentions McCain. McCain's is about Obama.


by Neef on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:23:33 PM EST

Re: A few quibbles (none / 0)

If Sen. Obama does not wish to achieve "victory", then he is conceding Sen. McCain's charge that he seeks a "surrender"...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A few quibbles (2.00 / 3)

Victory was achieved when Saddam Hussein was tried. I stated that above, but you decided to answer that comment with a non-answer. Obama does not need to define victory, he needs to define an exit strategy.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:43:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (2.00 / 1)

McCain and Obama have different burdens of proof, at least regarding their OP-eds. The diarist's (c) and (d) imply equivalent burdens. Obama has defined his exit strategy "16 mos", McCain has not defined his "victory".


by Neef on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 03:59:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Victory" (none / 0)

has already been achieved.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 12:10:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It saddens me (none / 0)

just before I left to move to Italy, I had a goodbye party with family and friends and I began hearing people who were part of the withdraw now crowd a year ago talking about "but we're still in Korea, so we need to stay forever if that's what it takes"

I get the feeling that if the surge did anything, it made some people believe that we can handle an indefinite occupation because it would "be just like Korea" and nobody seems to have a problem with Korea.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:43:18 PM EST

Re: It saddens me (2.00 / 1)

The Middle-East is not Korea. One of the main motivators for the anti-American sentiment in the Mid-East came because of our stationing troops in Saudi Arabia. Any US presence will be a constant irritant that will probably lead to violence. Korea is an entirely different situation as are Japan and Germany. Trying to equate them makes no sense.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:56:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then that (none / 0)

should be one of our talking points, but it's not.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then that (none / 0)

It already is. Did you think I came up with that all on my own?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:01:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't hear it anywhere (none / 0)

all I hear is victory and surrender.

If we are really going to convince people not to buy into McCain's crap, we're going to have to convince them that staying in Iraq is only making our fortunes worse. It's only creating terrorism and bankrupting the country and THEN we need to have an alternative plan.

It is my believe that Americans will spill endless amounts of blood and spend infinite amounts of money to protect their pride and if they feel a withdrawal hurts their pride, they will oppose it.

What we need to do is convince them that nothing is hurting American pride more than staying there.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:06:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't hear it anywhere (none / 0)

People have been writing and talking about it for a long time. Here's one article from 2007 and another from 2006.

http://www.slate.com/id/2167362/

http://www.mideasti.org/scholars/editori al/uae-warnings-friend


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:09:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well (none / 0)

it's not seeping into the minds of those who need to hear it.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 12:05:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It saddens me (none / 0)

It saddens me that you got to move to Italy, and I did not.  Hopefully it is not Southern Italy (which would make me very very sad, and make you one lucky SOB).

I cannot speak for your friends, but I was never part of the "withdraw" now crowd that you mention.  At the same time, I think your construct of a "we need to stay forever" argument is also false... noone is arguing for that, as far as I know.

I am suggesting that you have obligations that you cannot walk away from.  Once you fulfil those obligations, it becomes your duty to leave... until you fulfil those obligations, it is your duty to stay!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually (none / 0)

I will be living in Southern Italy in September...Sorrento...sorry lol

I don't disagree with you except I think our "obligations" will never be fulfilled. I think we've done the best we can do and there's nothing left we can do. Now it is up to the Iraqis.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:21:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually (none / 0)

Wow, Sorrento eh.  You lucky SOB.

The best meal I have ever had in my life was in Anzio (up the coast from where you are).  It was at a restaurant right on the coast, after a friends wedding.  Sometimes, I feel like flying 10 hours (LA-Rome), renting a car and driving to Anzio, having dinner, and then flying back.

I am sure Al Gore would not approve of that!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:28:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Perhaps not (none / 0)

perhaps you should spent a few days here instead, let the environment clean itself up, then fly back to LA

:-)


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:03:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perhaps not (none / 0)

I am trying to convince my other Italian friends to get married as well... giving me a very strong excuse to flout Al Gore =)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 01:39:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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