Uproar and Trolls: A Rewrite

I rewrote this post. Apparently the term "troll" originated in the 16th century to describe political debate and insult in London coffee houses. The term is thrown about too loosely. When I was active in bipolar listservs in the mid-1990s, a troll was a despicable person who joined the group pretending to be bipolar. He often set people against each other, preyed on the vulnerabilities of achingly vulnerable people, pretended to be in crisis, etc. We all knew what the word meant. Who knows what it means in political debate? In my first weeks on mybarackobama, I was accused of being a troll daily. Anyone capable of rational debate is not a troll. We all get intellectually lazy about explaining our principles and policies. It does us good to be challenged.

Parents learn to ignore obnoxious toddler or preschool behavior rather than to make a big fuss about it. Why don't you ignore the people that you consider trolls, don't bother rating their diaries and comments, don't comment on their diaries nor respond to their comments, don't impose timeouts. Concentrate on writing your own diaries

When my oldest daughter was 1 and 2, she pulled hair and dumped sand on people's heads. I finally realized that she wasn't inherently vicious; she just adored uproar. Her criminal behavior only occurred in the presence of parents absolutely guaranteed to go round the twist. She stopped eating sand when her pediatrician looked her in the eyes and told her how important it was to eat enough sand daily to stay healthy.

Real trolls love uproar. If you enjoy the insult game, you can't complain about your comrades in insult being trolls because you obviously relish uproar as well.

Here is what the devil child is doing now.
http://www.ipacademy.org/about-ipi/peopl e/vanessa-hawkins-wyeth

She no longer eats sand, although she has spent a suspiciously long time in African deserts unobserved by me. So there might be hope for trolls and the troll accusers.



Display:


Re: Uproar and Trolls (2.00 / 3)

But sometimes being mean to trolls is fun!


I'm a Rick-o-phobe.
by psychodrew on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 04:09:57 PM EST

Re: Uproar and Trolls (2.00 / 4)

But being mean is uproar. If you enjoy snarking at trolls, you should be grateful for their presence.


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 04:24:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But that's just it... (2.00 / 3)

Trolls LIKE it! They crave attention, and they don't give a damn whether it's positive or negative. They'll take whatever they get.

That's why I'm trying to mostly ignore the resident trolls here. I don't want to give them what they're craving. Now THAT pisses them off! hehe ;-)


Want to defend marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how!
by atdleft on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 04:29:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But that's just it... (2.00 / 1)

Xactly right.

I don't negotiate with terrorists...

But I will provide background music.

:~)

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 05:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uproar and Trolls (2.00 / 3)

Good to see the 'devil child' is working for peace ;) Nice post.


by Roberta on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 04:25:34 PM EST

Good point. (2.00 / 2)

But they're like a train wreck -- horrible, but you can't look away.


by sricki on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 04:47:07 PM EST

You must be humiliated because you support a (2.00 / 1)

flip flopper! Not me!

The trolls are loving uproar. It must compensate for the humiliations of the primaries. Deprive them.

Obama flipped all you guys. But you guys are beyond shame!

I would vote for a Democrat in November. It is unfortunate that Obama is the Democratic party nominee.

Unfortunately even he can not prevent me voting for a Democrat. Obama is a chicago machine politician. Nothing more! Nothing less!


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 04:56:43 PM EST

Re: You must be humiliated because you support a (2.00 / 6)

Is this snark? Serious question.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 05:15:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You must be humiliated because you support a (2.00 / 4)

Are you drunk?


by Kysen on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 05:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You must be humiliated because you support a (2.00 / 2)

I don't recall saying you were a troll. I was lukewarm about both Clinton and Obama, although I supported Clinton. Both are pols. No one but a pol would have the hubris to run for president. Pols flip-flop, say what they think the electorate wants to hear. Obama is a smart pol; otherwise he wouldn't be the presumptive nominee.  Obama was always a compromiser; only the naive could have thought he was more progressive or liberal than Hillary. His Reagan remarks were the tipoff.

Bill Clinton was the last Democratic candidate who was a smart pol, and he certainly was a flip-flopper. The civil rights movement, feminist movement, anti-Vietnam War movement, environmental movement were not led by pols. Only an energized progressive, feminist movement will win real change. That is why I am so frustrated by everyone sniping at each other.


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 05:26:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uproar and Trolls (2.00 / 2)

I get sucked in every time I see them on the rec list.  I've decided to Rec every diary that isn't written by the "nobama" fools with the hope that they will eventually be pushed off of the rec list.    I'll stop when they're gone.


by Renie on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 05:21:54 PM EST

That's the spirit! (2.00 / 1)


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 05:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for using the word humiliated (2.00 / 1)

I apologize for using the word humiliated. I think Hillary supporters have every reason to be outraged by the media and netroot treatment of Clinton. I certainly am. But it has inspired me to commit myself to a new feminist movement, not waste time fighting with people whose basic politics are probably similar to mine.

I spend six months posting dozens of emails to my daughters arguing that they misperceived Obama. I could have posted the best of them to my blogs and diaries, boasting about my superior insight into Obama. But instead I joined mybarackobama, blogged frequently, and established two groups that are safe havens for former Hillary supporters. Any email or blog post that bashes Hillary is trashed. I have absolute control of the groups. I have reported Hillary bashing posts on other groups as objectionable content.


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 05:34:15 PM EST

Re: Uproar and Trolls (2.00 / 2)

Well, I usually didn't interfere in sibling squabbles unless blood was involved.


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 05:41:33 PM EST

I can't decide who are the trolls (2.00 / 1)

I think I better put the "she who laughs, lasts" quote back on my signature. Or better still, Jane Austen's, "For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?"

Maybe we should explore the similarities between our relationship with our siblings and our relationship with people we regard as trolls. Bashing siblings is always fun.

I can't decide who are the trolls, so I don't know whom to ignore:)


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 05:48:02 PM EST

Disappointed (2.00 / 2)

My diary on whether feminists could be misogynists had a higher caliber of comments. Maybe we all should move over there. Or,  we might enjoy the diary on bipolar disorder:)


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 05:56:25 PM EST

Re: No rating (none / 0)

I am eternally grateful I decided never to rate comments, hide them, or report them as trolling.  I would be agonizing about this thread all night.


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 05:59:07 PM EST

Re: Uproar and Trolls (2.00 / 1)

You are a Rock Star.  I'm certain there are many reasons why this is so.  But it is sufficient for me to claim you as such once I read about the daughter you raised, via your link.
Van Halen in redstocking(s)!
Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 06:03:22 PM EST

Re: Uproar and Trolls (none / 0)

ChitownDenny,

You made my day. Can I be Bob Dylan in redstockings? My husband has complained I am not actually wearing redstockings, preferably with a short Catholic schoolgirl skirt. I have another impressive daughter. Google Katherine and "Obsidian Wings". Jane Mayer just published a book: "The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How The War on Terror Turned into a War on American Ideals." Katherine help edit and research the book. She also helped edit, "Guantanamo and the Abuse of Presidential Power" by Joseph Margulies. Her law firm is suing Blackwater, and she is only 29 years old.


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 06:21:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uproar and Trolls (none / 0)

Hello, Bobby!


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 06:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uproar and Trolls (none / 0)

Um, should be:  Hello Bobbie!


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 06:26:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Priorities (none / 0)

My diary on "discovering childhood bipolar disorder" is by far the most important one I have posted, and only my friends have recommended it, and  7 people have commented.

The Soviets used to drug political resisters and lock them up in psychiatric gulags. We are doing that to our kids. Doesn't anyone care?


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 06:04:25 PM EST

Re: Uproar and Trolls (none / 0)

Being manic/depressive myself..
there are times I can brush off the noquarter folks..and times that the "fuck'em" attitude plays out..

Saturday afternoon music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i48BP1PUo FI


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 06:22:40 PM EST

Re: Uproar and Trolls (none / 0)

That was fun, thanks. I should post some Phil Ochs and Tom Lehrer songs.


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 06:29:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Substance vs. Judgement (2.00 / 1)

A common practice on Mydd (and other blogs) is try to discern the motivation of the diarist rather than respond to the substance of the diary.  

Its a mistake.  When you put your intellectual energy toward responding to the logic (or lack there of) in a diary, you don't have to decide whether or not its written by a troll.

I read a lot of diaries on Mydd.  Very few strike me as trollish.  The ones that do, I just ignore.  All the others, I take at face value.  I assume that the diarist actually believes her/his argument.

If its a subject I find interesting, I read and perhaps offer a comment.  If I think there is an obvious flaw in the argument, I try to point it out in the most compelling way that I can.  (Though I don't often succeed.)

Give people the benefit of the doubt, for goodness sake.  Maybe you really really really don't agree with their point of view.  But from my perspective, its the Admins' right to decide which conversations they want to host and which they don't.  

Any time the Admins say there's a conversation they don't want to have here, we should all be prepared to move that conversation elsewhere.  Until that point, forget about trying to decide whether someone is a troll or not.  Begin from the presumption that the diarist's are speaking from their heart and true beliefs.


by dbrown04 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 06:54:12 PM EST

Re: Substance vs. Judgement (none / 0)

Thank you for some very useful advice. When I was active in bipolar support groups, a troll was someone who pretended to be a manic depressive and got his kicks causing mischief, setting people against each other, pretending to be in crisis--a  destructive creep who could really hurt achingly vulnerable people. On political blogs, I am beginning to realize the term is used as a substitute for thinking, as a way to play the insult game, to egg people on.  


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 07:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Interesting perspective (none / 0)

Your parallel between behavior in support groups and blogs is an interesting and informative one.  I think I'll add families to the list.  Gaining control by creating chaos is a behavior that I have a lot of personal experience with.

I wonder, though, whether the Admins at Mydd are going to let their site be pacified by a bunch of wise old ladies.  ;)

BTW: I like your sig line.


by dbrown04 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 08:20:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uproar and Trolls (none / 0)

Redstocking, I respect your views but definitely disagree when it comes to supporting a candidate who abandoned progressive and democratic principles  (e.g. free speech, intolerance for sexism, the sanctity of all votes) during the primary season.

About the racial politics during the primary, I don't believe the Clintons are racists (I'm NOT accusing you for saying they are!).  Since I'm a great admirer of Jesse Jackson and his work over the years--and since I voted for him in 1988 when he ran for the presidency--and since he won 11 primaries (a first for any African American), I didn't see how referring to Obama and Jesse Jackson in the same sentence was racist.  Like other persons of color, I have a radar for racism, but believe me Clinton's statement about Obama winning the S.C. like J. Jackson was NOT racist.  

Also, I agree that Obama is and has always been to the right of Sen Clinton--his FISA vote makes the point.  

About the "trolling" issue: Have any pro-Obama trolls been censored or banned from this site?  I'm referring to those who insult or otherwise try to intimidate dissenting view points when it concerns Obama, his slippery character, and his shifting positions.  
I wonder . . . .


by trixta on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 07:37:44 PM EST

Re: Uproar and Trolls (none / 0)

As you can see, I rewrite my diary as I changed my mind about what is really going on with trolling.

I agree entirely with you about the Jesse Jackson statment. Jumping on Clinton for her explanation of LBJ's role in the civil rights movement was so ignorant that you have to question people's motives.

I am not happy about Obama. I find it excruciatingly painful to see the progressive blogs finally seeing the light when Hillary supporters were banished for speaking the truth 10 months ago. But I have been voting for Democratic presidential candidates as the lesser of two evils all my life. And McCain needs to be crushingly defeated.

I hope Obama selects Clinton as his VP nominee, although I have no trust that he has the sense to do that.


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 08:02:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I want reasonable party unity (none / 0)

and reasonable support for our democratic nominee.

The trolls need to be banned or called out as such.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Sat Jul 12, 2008 at 08:36:24 PM EST


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