Why Obama's Faith-Based Program Is A Good Idea

I'm happy I reserved judgment, and waited to read Obama's speech on his faith-based initiatives plan.  After reading it, I am heartened by his attempt at harnessing the will and actions of the religious community to help people.  Further, I am also delighted that he's included three key provisions as terms of the agreement.  I was surprised to read earlier that he would support allowing groups to practice discriminatory hiring practices (but not discriminate in whom receives assistance).  But upon reading the speech, he says the exact opposite.  I've read it a couple of times to see if I've erred, but it's as plain as day.  I wonder why the reports have stated that he'll allow it.  Anyway, the relevant passage follows:

Now, make no mistake, as someone who used to teach constitutional law, I believe deeply in the separation of church and state, but I don't believe this partnership will endanger that idea - so long as we follow a few basic principles. First, if you get a federal grant, you can't use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can't discriminate against them - or against the people you hire - on the basis of their religion. Second, federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples, and mosques can only be used on secular programs. And we'll also ensure that taxpayer dollars only go to those programs that actually work.

With that concern out of the way, I see a great attempt by Obama to do good.  We all know that Bush's attempts at doing this were done only for votes, and he did not follow through.  What Obama has set forth is a construct to get religious groups already inclined and out there helping people more assistance.  Not only that, he has also explicitly included secular groups in this effort.  As far as the efficacy of this proposal, some religious groups may back away, since he demands that they are not allowed to proselytize, or discriminate.  But many groups, whether their impetus is religious or secular empathy, will get assistance with helping the poor, children, and other worthwhile causes.  As the plan is laid out, I can say I am comfortable with its social aims, as well as its constitutionality.  I am not a religious person, but I've always recognized the great works that many church going people do (I also recognize that people act without religious reasons).  With the plan Obama's set forth, he's allowing more people to conduct important social work more effectively, while also discouraging them from discrimination.  Both goals are worthy.  

The full speech : http://thepage.time.com/full-remarks-of- obamas-faith-speech-in-ohio/

[editor's note, by cycl06]I appreciate the comments focused on criticizing the merits of the program. No need for insults.



Display:


Re: Why Obama's Faith-Based Program Is A Good Idea (none / 0)

Religious organizations do TONS of work to help their community, and the distance between those groups and Democrats has been a huge and unnecessary distance. I'm glad we have a candidate trying to mend that bridge.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:09:43 AM EST

Re: Why Obama's Faith-Based Program Is A Good Idea (2.00 / 1)

I see we are flip flopping on this issue. I seem to remember some outrage we had on this issue a few years ago when Bush implemented these programs. Now since Obama wants to do it, it's ok? Pathetic.


by Iceblinkjm on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:12:50 AM EST

Re: Why Obama's Faith-Based Program Is A Good Idea (none / 0)

That's a big WE.  If you are still against it, it's your right to be outraged.  I'm just saying I think it's a good idea. The concern I've always had about this is prosyletizing.  He's said explicity that his program is against that.  If that's the case, people doing good work should get assistance.  Nothing pathetic about a good idea implemented the right way.  And for the record, John Kerry also supported Faith-Based initiatives.  I know so because I asked him in person.


by cycl06 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:21:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama's Faith-Based Program Is A Good Idea (2.00 / 2)

There's no way to control the proselytizing.  Some church is going to get big bucks and say they're doing one thing, and they'll do with it what they please.  Do you think federal monitors are going to examine these programs?  As soon as the overseer is gone, they'll be using the funding for indoctrination.  I was once very religious, until I did some reading and figured out the scam it is.

Well, I'm glad we're now seeing how cultists react when their leader does a 180.


by strongerthandirt on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:08:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama's Faith-Based Program Is A Good Idea (2.00 / 1)

I'm offended at being called a cultist.  That is uncalled for.  For one, how is this a 180?  Secondly, you assume that everyone on this site shares every  positions that you do.  You make a fair point, no need to attack me or anyone else who thinks its a good idea.  I'd say that number 1, you are never going to prevent abuse in any government program.  Its that's the basis of opposing something, we'd have no programs at all. Secondly, you can set up a system to try to combat it.


by cycl06 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:19:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No (2.00 / 2)

I do not want to be forcibly taxed to support religious organizations.


by dhonig on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:22:36 AM EST

Oh great, (2.00 / 1)


Faith-Based Programs are the oposite of what I support and I think any self-respecting liberal should oppose it.

And here we are with BO, the "presumably" great liberal.

wonderfull


by TaiChiMaster on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:28:32 AM EST

Re: Oh great, (none / 0)

well I am a self-respecting Liberal and I support faith-based programs, I didn't hate them under bush and I don't hate them now.

Faith based programs do alot of good around the world.


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:35:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh great, (none / 0)


Yeah, by all mean DO support hiring based on religion and public funds used based on religion.

I rest my case


by TaiChiMaster on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:36:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (2.00 / 3)

The entire point Obama is making is that the public funds CAN'T be used to discriminate based on religion.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:38:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh great, (2.00 / 1)

jeez do you just see the word faith and go death and blind

if you get a federal grant, you can't use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can't discriminate against them - or against the people you hire


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:39:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh great, (2.00 / 2)

not really they can still discriminate as long as it is not for a program that is funded by federal dollars. To illustrate: if tomorrow the organization A who are Bokononists receive a federal grant for a certain program (building houses) they by law they cannot discriminate from hiring non-bokononists. However that does not prohibit them from hiring only people of their faith for other programs or for that matter staffing their federal funded program with people of their church saying that they do not need to hire anymore people as they have enough people to staff this program. This was how the existing faith-based initiative was drafted leaving glaring loopholes to hire people according to the adhering faith for a federally funded program.


by tarheel74 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:59:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But they CAN discriminate... (2.00 / 1)

just not using the federal funds. So, they can overall hire based on religious tests but not for a specific program funded by the federal money.

So, we will be supporting groups that discrimiate based on religion-that's not a liberal position.


berkshiretrueblue Commited to helping elect a Democrat as President "Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo" Ambroise Bierce
by berkshiretrueblue on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:00:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But they CAN discriminate... (none / 0)

what they do with private funds is not my concern seperation of church and state.

what they do with taxpayer funds is what I am concerned about. and if they can't discriminate with those funds then isn't that what we want?

why do liberals with their whole seperation of church and state, care what private religious institutions are doing with private funds.


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, you're free to endorse discrimination ... (2.00 / 1)

but there are federal and state laws against it for most employers and hiring decisions based upon religious beliefs certainly aren't something I advocate regardless of whose money it is. In my opinion, if religious entities want ANY public money then they should have to follow ALL anti-discrimination laws. If religious groups want to retain their rights to discriminate and preach and convert then they need to keep their hands out of the public till-a wall of separation is my firm belief for the benefit of both church and state.

Is racial, sex, and age discrimination alright with you too? Or just religious? I love to count the contortions progrssives will undergo to remain in sync with Obama.


berkshiretrueblue Commited to helping elect a Democrat as President "Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo" Ambroise Bierce
by berkshiretrueblue on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:45:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But they CAN discriminate... (1.00 / 1)

exactly -- and as someone who has seen federal programs come and go, and how they're monitored, all I can say is --  this is a big giveaway of our tax dollars to support annexes for Trinity and hundreds of other churches.

IT IS TIME TO GIVE UP ON OBAMA.


by strongerthandirt on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:12:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice move (none / 0)

I particularly liked the TUCC jab.  

OBAMA WILL GIVE MY TAX MONEYS TO RACIST BLACK CHURCH OH NO!

Grow up.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:21:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh great, (2.00 / 1)

Yes, faith based organizations do good around the world. And you're welcome to contibute to any faith-based organization you like that does work you support (and even get a tax deduction). However, taking everyone's tax dollars and then resistributing the money to a few faith-based organizations that have been hand-picked by the federal government is a bad idea, an inefficient use of tax dollars, and a violation of the separation of church and state. But who cares about the Constitution when you're pandering to religious organizations?


by LakersFan on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 02:16:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree (2.00 / 1)

I've always liked this position, since I heard about it in the primaries.  My father works for the United Way, and they reach out to churches of all denominations for helpng folks who are in trouble and need assistance all the time.  Churches are in a unique position to implement a lot of good works, and as long as the money that comes from a government program isn't used to discriminate based on religion, or for a position that actually prosyletizes, it's constitutional.

Remember, in some ways, we already subsidize religious institutiones, because they don't pay taxes.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:37:21 AM EST

It is one big DANGEROUS IDEA (2.00 / 1)

Now that a Dem has decided that it is okay to use taxpayers money for religious pandering; it means that we have lost the argument about separation of Church and State. Or is it now we do not care about it anymore?


by ann0nymous on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:49:58 AM EST

Re: It is one big DANGEROUS IDEA (none / 0)

Again, Dems have backed this before, so its not just Obama.  But nevertheless, if you are arguing that this is a slippery slope, I see your point.  But this program itself is not ending a separation between church and state.  It is clear that the program is not intended to convert people, but rather give support to people aiming to assist those in need.  It recognizes that many of these people do so through religious organizations, and has defined limitations on how they are to operate if they recieve funding.  I'm interested to hear what you think the next logical step towards the ending of that seperation is.  


by cycl06 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:59:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It is one big DANGEROUS IDEA (none / 0)

There is a separation between CHURCH and state, not CHURCHES and state. Bush's program was clearly meant for churches that promoted his own values. This is designed to support what amounts to a giant national network of local non-profits. And keeping this on programs that do not discriminate with these funds and going based on results is a good thing.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:24:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama's Faith-Based Program Is A Good Idea (2.00 / 1)

Let's clear a few things up.
1) this is not a new position for Obama.
http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2758

2) It is not strictly for Religious orgs.

Obama does not believe that faith-based groups are an alternative to government or secular nonprofits, or that they're better at lifting people but. But what he does believe is that we all have to work together to meet the challenges of the 21st Century. Obama's Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships will help empower grassroots faith-based and community groups to help meet these challenges.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:07:41 PM EST

Re: Why Obama's Faith-Based Program Is A Good Idea (2.00 / 2)

religious and charity organizations are already tax exempt. yes, there are many organizations that do good. but there's a reason for the separation of church and state. look at all of the religious right and how they've exploited their status for their political motives. less we forget the wonderful speeches against hillary and the u.s. in obama's former church?

this is pandering. nothing new. same old politics. it's amusing how people are going along with it after the pushback we gave to bush's faith-based initiatives.


by darwinism on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:09:57 PM EST

Re: Why Obama's Faith-Based Program Is A Good Idea (none / 0)

just because some have abused a system or a program doesn't mean the program isn't still a good one

hasn't that always been the rights attack against entitlement programs?

and i bet the people who are HELPED by these faith based programs don't see it as pandering.


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama's Faith-Based Program Is A Good Idea (none / 0)

still, separation of church and state. there's a reason for it.

so you start the program under a "good" and capable stewardship. the program continues after the administration ends...but there's no guarantee that democrats will control the white house forever. in fact, they won't it will change hands. what's gonna stop them from abusing that program?

so again, separation of church and state. there's a reason for it. let's listen to the founding fathers on this, not the messiah.


by darwinism on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 02:12:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's a difference (none / 0)

Bush was criticized for the Office of Faith-Based initiatives partly because it was seen as an outgrowth of the fact that he had been running as a theocrat, and lets religious opinion overrule his "understanding" of the constituation and law, and also because Bush didn't bother to monitor the expendatures; they were multi-million handouts to his crazy religious friends, like Moonie messiah cult leader Sun Myung Moon.

Properly monitored and chronicled, there isn't a problem with the initiatives themselves.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:27:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's a difference (none / 0)

"Properly monitored and chronicled, there isn't a problem with the initiatives themselves."

Sure, there's nothing wrong with them...until there's another Republican administration in power who then uses the initiatives to further their own agenda and line their friends pockets. Stop being so short-sighted about politics. Good policies are good no matter who's in office, and bad policies (like the office of faith-based initiatives) need to be eliminated before they take on a life of their own.


by LakersFan on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 02:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Obama's Faith-Based Program Is A Good Idea (none / 0)

Frankly, I don't see this as a liberal or conservative issue.  The reason why I opposed Bush's faith based program is because I don't trust Bush and the Repubs to respect the separation of church and state in implementing such a program.  With Bush, the fear was indeed about the establishment of religion.  

With Obama, I have no such concerns.  With Obama, his initiative is more centered on saying that religious organizations have a role in promoting civic engagement and assisting in dealing with this nation's myriad of issues and problems.  A very positive aspect of Obama's initiative is that he plans to emphasize organization and training as part of the initiative.  In other words, organizations will receive funds only to the extent they agree to train people in community organizing.

I think that's fantastic, especially since religious organizations play such a huge role in the black, Latino, and Asian American communities.


by ProfessorReo on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:40:26 PM EST

Obama's Faith-Based Program Is a VERY BAD Idea (none / 0)

Religion and religious organizations suppose to be totally separated from state.
Democrats suppose to resist any program channeling public money (read - our taxes) toward religious organizations.
If Obama is doing it:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080701/ap_on_el_pr/obama_faith_11
it means he is not a real democrat and it is another prove why he cannot be trusted with nomination and presidency.
Shame on you, Mr. Obama!
If Democratic Party will support the expansion of Bush's faith-based programs, than shame on them too!
Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 03:17:38 PM EST


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