How to talk to non-supporters about Obama

This post is for people planning to volunteer for Barack Obama's presidential campaign this summer and fall. My goal is to help you be more effective in communicating with voters like me, who don't care for Obama.

I know that the Obama campaign has scripts and training sessions for its volunteers, and those worked well in the primaries.

Now you have to reach out to Democrats who weren't buying what Obama was selling in the primaries. It seems to me that many Obama supporters respond in a counter-productive way when they encounter people who are not sold on the candidate.

In this diary, I will offer two basic principles to guide your conversations with non-supporters.

Then I will cover types of comments you may hear from resistant Democrats when you are doing GOTV for Obama. Those are all based on things I have heard people say (not comments I have read on blogs).

I will give examples of what I consider ineffective and constructive responses to those comments.

Follow me after the jump if you care to hear more.

I am not an expert in political communication. However, as a precinct captain for John Kerry in 2003/2004 and for John Edwards in 2007/2008, I talked with hundreds of Democrats in my precinct and around the Des Moines area.

Because of certain features of the Iowa caucus system, it was important for me to remain on good terms with non-supporters, who might be able to help me win my precinct. So I feel my perspective may be useful for Obama volunteers.

Before I get into specific dialogs you may have with non-supporters, I encourage you to embrace two "big picture" principles related to GOTV for the general election.

First: Try to "respect, empower and include" the Democrats who will not be excited about Obama.

To do this, it helps to be a good listener and have some empathy for their point of view, even if you strongly dislike the candidate they preferred. The candidate they supported lost, and now they have to come to terms with that and vote for the man who derailed their dream. Don't rub it in their faces.

Second: Remember that voter contacts are not about winning an argument. They are about finding ways to get on the same side as the person you are talking to.

If you talk to someone who seems to have a totally irrational dislike for Obama, take a deep breath and remember that your guy won the nomination.

Repeat after me: your guy won the nomination.

You do not need to prove this person wrong. You have nothing to gain from attacking this person's first choice. Obama needs this person's support in the general election, and you are Obama's ambassador.

So resist the temptation to say that Hillary ran a disgraceful, dishonest, race-baiting campaign, or that Edwards is a phony loser.

You will find these conversations easier if you can change the subject from something you disagree about (e.g. Obama's qualifications or skills) to something you agree on (e.g. how frightening it would be to have more conservatives on the Supreme Court).

As I mentioned above, some Obama supporters tend to respond to critics in a counter-productive way. Here are a couple of real-life examples.

A few months ago I ago I had some e-mail correspondence with an Obama fan who was perplexed by my dislike of his candidate. I sent him a message listing a bunch of things that bug me about Obama and his campaign strategy. Here is part of the reply I got in return:

I actually feel bad for you, I really do, and I do NOT mean to be even the least bit demeaning, or snooty (no matter how it may sound -- I really don't ).

Because I think you are missing out on a unique time in US political history.  Seriously.  Obama is a candidate who, no, is hardly perfect, but has (1) inspired millions of young people, minorities, Indies, etc. to be involved in the political process, when they were not before; (2) been an incredibly inspirational figure and has generated excitement and hope among millions more; and (3) is our best chance in decades -- yes, literally decades -- to win, and to possibly even win big, and form a working majority for progressive change so issues like health care, energy dependence, ethics reform, etc., etc. will finally be addressed.  For those reasons, he's very special, a once-in-a-generation candidate.  It's too bad you are missing out, and not seeing what so many, many, many others are seeing.

Saying you feel sorry for someone because she (unlike millions of more insightful people) cannot recognize Obama's fantabulous awesomeness is not a good outreach strategy.

I spent a week in the hospital in February, and a close family friend who is a doctor called regularly to check on my progress. It drives this guy crazy that I do not like Obama, even though I've assured him that I would vote for Obama in the general. Every time he called me when I was in the hospital, he ended up changing the subject to Obama. Didn't I understand that Obama is the most gifted politician of our lifetimes? One day he even called back later to apologize.

Once people tell you they will vote for Obama, stop trying to convert them into true believers. Just thank them for their support and let them know how important every vote will be this fall.

Also, be aware that bashing the other candidates is a big turn-off even for some people who voted for Obama and prefer him to Clinton.

Now, I've tried to come up with comments you may hear from voters who don't like Obama, along with some ways you can get on the same side as these voters.

"He's so inexperienced"; "He doesn't seem very qualified"; "I wanted to see a woman president"; "Couldn't he have waited another few years? He's barely done anything in the Senate yet."

Get ready to hear this from older voters, especially women over 50 who backed Hillary. If they have worked outside the home, they have seen this movie before: the younger, charismatic man gets the job (or the promotion, or the account), while the older, more qualified woman gets passed over.

These people are just as disappointed by the way things turned out as you would be if the superdelegates had handed the nomination to Clinton after Obama earned it. They liked Bill, they like Hillary, and they thought she would do a great job. They are frustrated that millions of voters picked the hot shot over the smart, hard-working woman. In their minds, Hillary deserved the nomination, but voters picked someone less prepared for the job.

To add insult to injury, many of them now believe that they will not live to see a woman president.

Ineffective responses to these voters: telling them that Hillary isn't more qualified than Obama, that it would be disastrous to have the Clintons back in the White House, that Hillary's sense of entitlement is offensive, or that Hillary deserved to lose after running a sleazy, racist, deceitful campaign.

More inclusive and respectful responses:

I understand where you're coming from--I know I would have been really disappointed if my candidate had lost the primaries. I hope we can count on your vote, because we can't afford to have any more Republican judges on the Supreme Court.

You know, I've been on board with Obama for a long time, but my [mother/neighbor/cousin/colleague] was a huge Hillary supporter. I have a lot of respect for some things she has done in the Senate, and I think she has great work ahead of her after we beat the Republicans this fall.

The first example changes the subject from whether Obama deserved to beat Hillary to something you and this voter can agree on: it would be disastrous to let John McCain appoint Supreme Court judges.

The second example validates this voter's feelings about Hillary and reminds her that Hillary's work is not done, even though her presidential aspirations will never be fulfilled.

If you can't truthfully say that you respect anything Hillary has done in the Senate, I recommend that you read markw's diary on "Four Reasons I Support Hillary." A friend of mine who was once a confirmed Hillary-hater changed her views after she learned about Hillary's work on behalf of children with autism and other special needs.

If you are a woman, you might borrow some ideas from this excellent diary by noweasels. I have reworked the last couple of paragraphs of her diary:

Although Clinton wasn't my first choice, I hope she knows that a lot of women in my generation were glad to see her run. It made me feel empowered to see that a woman had a real chance of winning the presidency.

That approach validates this voter's feelings and reminds her that Clinton achieved something by running, even though she didn't win.

I guarantee it will get you further than saying you're sick and tired of feminists telling women they should have voted for Hillary.

"I'm worried he's just too green for the job"; "I wanted someone who wouldn't need on-the-job training"; "I don't need a rock star for a president."

People who preferred one of the second-tier candidates may feel that Obama didn't deserve to win the nomination. They are frustrated that the media shut out their candidate and reduced the campaign to a two-person celebrity competition. These are the Democrats who laughed when I used to joke that those "HOPE" yard signs with the sunrise "O" logo should have said "HYPE."

Ineffective response to this kind of voter: saying that Obama is a "once-in-a-lifetime candidate," who was simply more compelling, exciting, or inspirational than Joe Biden or Chris Dodd or Bill Richardson.

Instead, I recommend acknowledging that many people share their doubts:

Well, I like Obama a lot. I know a lot of Democrats [don't think he's ready/wanted someone else], but I think if we get him elected, he's going to surprise a lot of people.

I have a lot of respect for [Biden/Richardson] and would love to see Obama pick him for VP or Secretary of State.

Chris Dodd would be a great Senate majority leader.

Yeah, I know a lot of people feel he ran too soon. He's got a lot of experienced people around him, though. I think he is smart enough to know where to look for the expertise he doesn't have.

These comments show empathy and remind voters that their preferred candidate still has a political future under a President Obama.

Another response that might help you connect with this kind of Democrat:

Obama was my first choice, but I think we had a really strong field. [Or: Obama wasn't my first choice either--we had a really strong field.] I saw some of the debates, and I always felt like everyone on the stage could do a decent job as president, especially compared to the losers on the Republican side.

Now you have changed the subject from whether Obama was the best candidate to something you agree on (the Republican alternatives were horrible).

"What has he ever done besides talk?"; "He's really good at saying nothing and getting people all charged up about it"; "I know he can deliver a speech, but what's he actually going to do if he gets in there?"

This may mystify you, but some people who hear Obama speak walk away unimpressed. That would include my friend who was undecided between Obama and Edwards until Tom Harkin's steak fry in September, which convinced her that Obama had no idea what needs to be done. Or my friend whose reaction to Obama's "Yes we can" speech (the night of the New Hampshire primary) was, "He said absolutely nothing."

When I was in the hospital, I had CNN on a lot, which led to some political conversations with the nursing staff. One nurse's aide said she'd like to know when Obama is ever going to do something besides give speeches.

Ineffective response: remind this person that millions of Americans find Obama's speeches very inspiring, so inspiring that they have gotten involved in politics for the first time in their lives.

That will work about as well as telling people they should go out and buy every record that tops the charts, or that the Oscar for best picture should go to the movie with the biggest box office. They know Obama has this effect on people, but they listen to him and they just don't get it.

I couldn't agree more with a point kid oakland made in a diary a few months ago:

In my view that is a crucial question that every candidate for elected office must be able to answer in clear, simple declarative sentences: what will the voters get when they vote for you?

My honest assessment is that Senator Obama has gone as far as he can with the imagery and demographics associated with his campaign: youthful voters lined up around the block to demand change and express hope.

It's time to add another approach. Barack Obama needs to practice retail politics. He needs to understand that some of his weakest demographics are those where a message of change will not resonate, will not win votes.

During the last month or so, Obama has been talking a little more about policies in his speeches. Still, his volunteers need to be able to tell skeptical voters what "change we can believe in" means. Be prepared to hand out some position papers or at least talk about some specific policies he would enact:

The media tend to be pretty superficial, but he has done a lot you probably haven't heard about. Did you know that he has worked on laws to protect children from lead poisoning?

One thing that impressed me was his [energy/education/tax reform] plan. (Then talk about why you support Obama's specific plans in that area.)

I also thought that newyorknewyork had a great suggestion in a recent diary about phonebanking for Obama:

You can use this with ANY issue that comes up:

Let's face it, Obama and Clinton's policies are 95% identical.  So `who has the best policy' is not really that important.  It's who is most likely to be able to IMPLEMENT that policy that really matters.

Then you can explain why you think Obama's approach will help him implement the policies that are pretty much the same as what Hillary was offering.

"Oh yeah, let's all be friends and play nice with the Republicans--that is really going to work"; "He is going to get eaten alive."

Obama's post-partisan rhetoric drives some Democrats crazy. They think that if he's sincere, he must be incredibly naive to imagine that he can get everyone to coalesce around some kind of common-sense, unity agenda. These are the Democrats who laughed when Hillary mocked Obama's rhetoric during a rally in Rhode Island. They thought she was using humor to make a valid point.

Many of these people are offended that Obama implies both parties are equally to blame for our political problems. What rock was he living under during the 1990s, when the Republicans played dirty, never sought compromise in good faith and even abused the impeachment process?

Some of Obama's rhetoric suggests that he thinks reaching out to Republicans is more important than fighting to enact Democratic priorities. That makes some Democrats wary, and it didn't help that Obama has avoided the spolight during some of the key Senate battles of the past year (such as over Iraq supplemental funding bills and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act).

Ineffective response: Tell these people that both parties are to blame, no party has a monopoly on good ideas, and/or we're in a political rut because too many people are cynical.

If you look too young to have been politically active during the 1990s, I would particularly caution against suggesting that hyper-partisan Democrats are just as bad as hyper-partisan Republicans.

You would do better to remind these voters that Obama has been a team player for our side:

Yeah, I've heard some people call him Republican-lite, but I just don't see it. He worked his butt off campaigning for Democrats all over the country two years ago. (If Obama campaigned for any Democrats in your state or region in 2006, be sure to bring that up.)

I get what you're saying. One thing I do know is that if the Democrats can get some good stuff through Congress, Obama isn't going to veto it like McSame-as-Bush would.

Well, even if Obama isn't as liberal as I would like sometimes, I know he would appoint good judges, which is more than I can say for McCain.

It never hurts to remind fire-breathing Democrats that the Supreme Court hangs in the balance right now.

"Screw him. He talks about hope and then turns around and calls the Clintons racists."

As angry as you may be about Hillary's campaign tactics, many of her supporters are just as angry at Obama. The way they see it, the Obama campaign set out to brand the Clintons as racists in order to get a political edge among blacks and white liberals. Meanwhile, the media gave Obama a pass on his supporters' comments that denigrated Hillary, sometimes in sexist terms.

Ineffective response: Taking the bait and telling this person why the racial polarization is all the Clintons' fault, or nitpicking to say that Obama himself never directly called Hillary a racist.

Don't waste time arguing with these people. They've been watching the same campaign that you have. You will never convince them that Hillary is "deeply, grievously, morally wrong." I would try something like this:

It's too bad that our primaries got bogged down in [identity politics/finger-pointing about racism]. I liked it better when they were [hashing out the issues/fighting about their health care plans]. I know it was divisive, but I think Democrats will be able to come together now. At least I hope so, because I don't want another four years of McSame-as-Bush.

Now you have put yourself on the same side as this voter: you regret the racial polarization that accompanied our primaries.

You may wonder why you should validate the concerns of people who weren't offended by Hillary's campaign. Please remember that Obama can't win the general without the overwhelming majority of Clinton supporters voting for him. It doesn't help your candidate to ascribe the worst possible motives to people who backed Hillary in the primaries. Don't take my word for it: kid oakland has also made the case for respecting the reasons some people preferred Hillary.

On a related note, if you talk to someone in the LGBT community who is still mad about the Donnie McClurkin debacle, do not try to convince this person that Obama was just pragmatically recognizing the widespread homophobia in the black community. Also, I wouldn't bother showing them Obama's open letter to LGBT voters, which he released after winning 10 primaries in a row.

The voter you're talking to probably believes that Obama threw gays under the bus when he stood to gain politically, then paid lip service to their concerns once he felt confident he was winning the nomination. I suggest showing empathy for this person's anger:

Truth be told, I wish he'd never scheduled that event. It wasn't in character for him--he's got a strong record on equality issues. I hope you'll vote for him anyway, because all of our civil rights are going to be flushed down the toilet if McCain puts more right-wing judges on the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court is your trump card. Don't be afraid to play it.

"He is going to get killed in the general"; "Sorry, America is not ready to elect a black president"; "Yet again the Democrats were too stupid to nominate someone who could actually win the election."

The dustup over Reverend Wright's comments and the results of the Ohio and Pennsylvania primaries reinforced many Democrats' belief that Obama is a weak candidate for the general election.

Ineffective responses: Accusing this voter of tolerating racism or making excuses for racists. Also, I wouldn't start an argument by telling this voter his or her preferred candidate would have done even worse. (Find me one Deaniac who will admit that Kerry won more states than Dean would have.) Bringing up Clinton scandals or the Edwards $400 haircut is not going to inspire this person to help Obama.

Remember: your guy won the nomination. Be gracious toward supporters of other Democrats.

Try something like this instead:

Well, Bill Clinton was behind in the polls in the summer of 1992. I think Obama will make up ground when people get to know him better, but no one's going to hand it to him. I'm out here [or: I'm calling you today] because we need all hands on deck. Can we count on your vote at least?

Democrats have been so energized this year, with huge turnouts all over the place. I think we will be able to bring this one home. I hope you'll be able to help us too.

I saw a poll where more people said they wouldn't vote for someone over 70 than said they wouldn't vote for a black man. Have you seen McCain lately? He looks really old, and he sounds old too.

I think we can get enough people to vote for Barack. Look how well he's done in a lot of states that never elected a black man to anything before. Even I was surprised.

Note: When I was a precinct captain for Edwards, it was extremely alienating to hear a few Obama supporters accuse me of favoring Edwards because he was a white male. (I am not talking about bloggers, I am talking about Obama supporters I talked to in the "real world.") Do not make the same mistake if you are talking with former Edwards supporters. Some of them might be willing to volunteer for Obama themselves, but not if you make them feel like they will be looked upon as racists.

"He is going to sell out progressives"; "He's just another corporate Democrat"; "What has he actually done to end the war?"

People who backed Edwards or one of the second-tier candidates are most likely to express this kind of sentiment about Obama.

Ineffective responses: Arguing that Obama is much more progressive than the candidate they preferred, bashing Edwards or Dodd for voting for the authorization of the use of military force in Iraq. You gain nothing from fighting this battle.

You might try giving some examples of progressive causes Obama has supported, or of beloved liberals who have endorsed Obama, but I think one of these approaches would make more headway:

I hear what you're saying. I hope we can count on your vote at least. I think Obama is going to do better than you expect, I really do, but the main thing is to keep John McCain out of the White House. This guy has voted for every Bush judge and is terrible on [choice/the environment/labor issues/whatever].

Well, I believe he is sincerely committed to ending this war. I know what you mean--maybe he could have done more in the Senate. It's hard when Bush is sitting right there with his veto pen. I guess the bottom line for me is I've got young [kids/nephews/grandkids/students], and I would hate to think that we'll still be in Iraq when they grow up because we elected a guy who wants to keep us there for 100 years.

This diary is getting quite long, so I'll end with one last piece of advice.

If you are so angry at the Clintons that you cannot have a respectful conversation with Hillary supporters, then I encourage you to volunteer for the Obama campaign in some capacity that does not involve direct voter contact. Not every volunteer has to do phone-banking or canvassing.

I'm talking about those who harbor "a hatred towards [Hillary] that is difficult to imagine let alone describe."

Bring some home-made meals to your local Obama headquarters. Offer to do data entry, stuff envelopes or sort literature for the door-knockers. If you have a spare bedroom, offer to house an Obama volunteer or field organizer. They will appreciate your efforts, and you can feel morally superior that you did not "debase" yourself by asking a Clinton supporter to vote for our nominee.

As for the majority of you Obama fans, please do your part to help our nominee mend fences with Democrats who don't like him.



Display:


Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (2.00 / 7)

If the Supreme court argument is the only one that Obama really has then his is a very weak candidacy. I've talked to a lot of people who feel that Obama is an unelectable candidate and that if the DNC was so darn concerned about Roe V. Wade then they should have nominated someone who isn't as big of an electoral risk.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:25:05 PM EST

in my opinion, it's not the only argument (2.00 / 5)

in Obama's favor, but it's the one with the best chance of working with the Democrats who are most resistant to voting for him.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:26:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in my opinion, it's not the only argument (none / 0)

No one should feel they are being blackmailed by one issue, which is why I think we should expound on the supreme court, go beyond the RvW issue to other things the court may decide in the future.


by patooker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:33:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in my opinion, it's not the only argument (none / 0)

I've seen the "blackmail" sentiment before, and I don't really get it.

A presidential election is supposed to be ABOUT the issues, isn't it? That's why we support Democrats. So how is it "blackmail" to point out where the candidates differ on important issues?


by ZombieRoboNinja on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in my opinion, it's not the only argument (2.00 / 3)

My wife is the best example, any time she feels like someone thinks her most valuable asset as a woman is her uterus she gets angry.

So by looking at a woman, of child bearing age or not, and saying, "You have to vote for Barack because otherwise the court will be lost for a generation." can feel like you are saying "The  most important thing about you as a woman is your ability to make babies, not your mind, ideals, etc so you have to vote for the guy I'm telling you to vote for." It is the use of the word 'have', and the fact that feminism is about being valued for having more than a pair of X chromosomes.


by patooker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:48:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would disagree - it's a turnoff (1.55 / 9)

and everything about him reeks of coersion and eliminating our choices so we have only one choice - to vote for him.

1) You have no choice, Roe v. Wade will be overturned.

  1. He booted his first Illinois oppoenent off the ballot so the voters had no choice.
  2. You are kicked off dailykos if you don't like Obama. Your comments in favor of Hillary are deleted from Huffington Post. A pro-Hillary writer is fired from Talking Points Memo.
  3. Democrats MUST have unity, if you don't vote Obama you can't be a Democrat. You have no choice, you must vote Obama.
  4. He doesn't answer reporter's questions.
  5. He reacts bitterly to an unfriendly debate at ABC by allowing his campaign to lash out at Charlie Gibson and George S. He "scratches his face" with his middle finger while talking about Hillary "being in her element" at that debate, he wipes her off the bottom of his shoes metaphorically in reference to "BITCH" rapper Jay Z.

There is only so much convincing his supporters can do. Waving a coat hanger in women's faces will repel them further from this man.

Oh - and him slapping Michelle's butt after they did the little fist-bump Tuesday night was a bad move. It's not just because of Hillary that women don't like him. Michelle is a big reason for this. And treating her like eye candy is another big reason for this.


by catfish2 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would disagree - it's a turnoff (2.00 / 3)

True.  Barack and Michelle should have no contact unless they're procreating.  Anything further is sexist and demeaning to women.


by Subroutine on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would disagree - it's a turnoff (1.00 / 2)

ok as far as #6 goes you have no idea what you are talking about

I can tell by your comments you never heard of jay-z or any of his songs but before you continue to make more of an "ASS" of yourself that brush off has NOTHING to do with calling her a "BITCH"
absolutely nothing with brushing her off the bottom of his shoe. Now if you want to stop ASSuming what the reference means  just listen to the song "dirt off your shoulder" by jay -z and stop making yourself look stupid


PUMA: Particularly Undeveloped Mental Ability
by wellinformed on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:22:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would disagree - it's a turnoff (2.00 / 1)

1. yes roe v. wade will be overturned if McCain is elected

  1. zzzzzzz
  2. Clinton supporters left DK, at the time it was called a BOYCOTT
  3. You have a choice, ignore Hillary pleas to vote for Obama.
  4. He answered "sweeties" questions and she said their encounter was not that big of a deal, but if you are looking for something to make out of nothing, then who can stop you.
6.LMAO! Rapper Jay Z incident has been proven false which must make you a  republican troll.

Oh, he didn't slap Michelle's ass--he tapped just above her ass. In my culture we call it the lower back. There wasn't even close to cheek contact. Oh Lord, I am going to stop typing now because you must be a troll


summer is for swimming
by susu1969 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:50:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (1.00 / 5)

Go Away Troll.  Shoo Fly Shoo.  You aren't a Democrat, so don't worry about our party.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again... (2.00 / 2)

The old "love it or leave it" line.


by susie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 12:54:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It isn't. (2.00 / 5)

"If the Supreme court argument is the only one that Obama really has then his is a very weak candidacy."

Jobs/the economy.
Gas prices/energy policy.
Iraq Disaster.
Foreign policy.
Health insurance.
Education.
Housing.
GI bill.

How can anyone who supports the Democratic Party and its nominee not realize that there are many issues Obama has a lock on over McSenile?


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:41:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It isn't. (2.00 / 3)

Actually I wouldn't use the gas prices/energy issue since he voted for the Cheney energy bill and McCain didn't.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:49:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll take just one rejected point as vindication. (none / 0)

Since it still leaves McInsane with precious little to campaign on but his war wounds and Bush's record.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:56:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nothing to do with the Energy bill (2.00 / 1)

Gas prices have nothing to do with the Energy bill.  The main issue is the slumping US dollar.  In order to fund this war and to keep the business cycle from going into its natural slowdown, Bush and his cronies on the Fed have watered down the value of the dollar.  

The last time I was in Europe, which was just after 9/11, the US dollar bought over 1.35 Euros, now the dollar is worth less than half of that.  It is going to be really ugly when a grown up takes over and has to start arguing for strong money policy.  

Remember that It was Jimmy Carter who nominated Paul Volker to the Fed.  He was the one who really saved the US economy in the 80s but people want to give the credit to Reagan.

The other part is China.  In order to meet the needs of Wal-Mart selling cheap crap, we have to send more oil to the Chinese factories.


by monkeyga on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:09:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

After watching a hearing on that (none / 0)

On C-span, it appears that about a third of the price drive up is folks like those that were at Enron have gone into commodities and are manipulating the shadow financial sector to make money, just as they did before.

It's people gambling with investments, since there is no real estate bubble any more they have gone to the next unregulated thing to screw around with it.

Blame deregulation, as in Repubs, for all this. They made it so that energy is not regulated here in the US, according to the hearing I watched. It's regulated in the UK, Dubai, and other places now.


by splashy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 05:12:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It isn't. (none / 0)

I was very surprised to find that out. Only about 25 senators voted against the energy bill. McCain was one of them. McCain is even saying something along the lines that Obama voted for the "Bush-Cheney energy bill."

Strange bedfellows indeed.


by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:24:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Health insurance is not a good one (none / 0)

Since his plan will fail and will give the Repubs ammunition to kill universal health care for another decade or more.

Now, if he would actually START with universality, including EVERYONE, then we may HAVE something. That would cut costs by almost half, and would take away the biggest argument the Repubs would have, that it costs too much.


by splashy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 05:07:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If you think... (none / 0)

McBush has a better health insurance proposal than Obama, it can only be hoped you have insurance that covers mental treatment.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 12:23:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The electability question (none / 0)

is very much in the eye of the beholder.  As of this moment Obama leads McCain by 8 in the Rassmussen poll, and Gallup suggests he will have a substantial lead on Monday.

But for these purposes the question is irrelevant.  Democrats disagreed on this issue.

As long as the discussion focuses on issue differences between Obama and McCain the differences are stark everywhere you look: Iraq, Iran, the economy, health care.

The truth is there wasn't much difference between Obama and Clinton on the issues.

The other truth is that the number of Democrats who are defecting from Obama at this point is small.  There will be some who won't come home, but no more than 10%.  


by fladem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The electability question (2.00 / 1)

"The other truth is that the number of Democrats who are defecting from Obama at this point is small."

I find it curious that there is so little speculation on how many Reeps will abandon the Bush/McCain ticket, either for Obama or for Barr.

It seems to me that it is MadMcCain who should be worrying about defections.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:00:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The electability question (2.00 / 1)

You should worry about Dems abandoning ship for Barr too. People thought that Andersons run in 1980 was sure to help carter get reelected because he was going to pull liberal Republicans away from Reagan. In the end, he hurt carter more. So relying on Barr is to help out Obama isn't good policy.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:14:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The electability question (none / 0)

Seeing that you are also in Georgia, I am sure you realize that, at least in the South, Barr is less a threat to Obama than he would have been to HRC.

I do admit that he is going to take away votes from Obama, but I know he would have taken a lot more votes away from her here in Metro Atlanta.   I know that he was the back up for a lot of people I know if Obama was not the nominee.  

Who knows how they really would have voted in November.


by monkeyga on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:59:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The electability question (none / 0)

Are you kidding? Barr is probably more of a threat to Obama but McKinney would be more of a threat to Hillary. Do you really think that there's that many single issue anti war voters in GA? I think Hillary would have gotten some of the working class votes though that Obama won't.

You don't know that he would have taken votes away from Hillary in metro Atlanta. Heck I live in the exurban ring and there's only one person here I know voting for Obama. Hey, it's anecdotal I know but still.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

even Poblano admits (2.00 / 1)

that in the deep south, Obama will do significantly worse against McCain than Clinton would have.

You can argue that it doesn't matter, because neither Democrat could win those states' EVs. Who cares if we lose Georgia by 10 or by 25?

On the other hand, Obama's weakness in some states will cost down-ticket Democrats.

But Hillary would probably have hurt down-ticket Democrats in other states where Obama runs stronger than she does (e.g. Colorado).


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:15:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No way (none / 0)

Clinton would be lucky to get 35% of the vote in the Deep South.  Look how poorly she did in all the Deep South states.  She wasn't even close in a single one.

McCain would not even have to campaign in the South if she had been the nominee.

Please remember that Tennessee and Arkansas are not the South, they are Appalachia.

But once again, you are doing what so many others have done, you are writing us off completely.  Obama is within 12 of McCain in Georgia.   There is a massive voter registration drive to get African Americans who have never voted to the polls this year.

With Barr running, Obama will be close enough that McCain will have to spend resources here that he would want to spend in Ohio.

Clinton would have also KILLED all down ticket dems in Deep South states.   It happened in 1994 and it would happen again.

See once again logic is not working.  You are talking about how Obama is the weaker candidate and going to cost us down ticket votes.   This is one of the main reasons that I voted for him because in this part of the country he is going to help significantly


by monkeyga on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The polling in the south (none / 0)

is surprising.

One of the tings I have been watching is the extent to which the Southern States on the Atlantic will trend differently than the other deep south states (I include GA in the deep south - which I know has a coastline...)

Obama runs better than Clinton in both SC and VA.  He runs worse in North Carolina than Clinton (which Obama won), though I am suspicious of the polling.  In any case there is evidence at this point that Democrats are doing dramatically better in these states in '08 versus '04.

The story in the South is a surprising one (see also the McCain margin in Mississippi, which is WAY down from '08) and rather inconsistent (Obama gets killed in GA, Tenn and KY).  


by fladem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:21:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that is interesting (2.00 / 2)

I am skeptical that any of those states will still be competitive after Labor Day, but who knows?


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:52:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not that hard to figure out (2.00 / 2)

Obama does well among wealthier and better educated suburban whites in the South. He also cleans up among African Americans. He does poorly among uneducated white Southerners.

NC, VA and GA have a lot of the well-educated Sunbelt whites who find Obama's message appealing. Tennessee has some (around here in Knoxville and south of Nashville), but overall Tennessee has fewer Sunbelt yuppies. Arkansas has even less. And forget Kentucky (except parts of Louisville and Lexington).


by elrod on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:59:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Before Nader in 2000 (none / 0)

I would have worried.

Not now.  Democrats have heard the siren song of third parties before.

And they won't buy it this time.


by fladem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 01:24:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In truth (none / 0)

McCain has consolidated the right better than I expected.

If you look at the surveyusa numbers in the individual states, the supposed opposition from people like Dobson has done little to hurt McCain.

Each party has consolidated faster than expected given their nominees.  


by fladem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:15:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (none / 0)

The ONE issue that should now be tossed out of the damn park is electability. That one is 100% pointless now, and even when it IS an issue, it's still pretty specious.

Screw electability. What, is somebody going to vote for someone else because they think Obama can't get votes? Is there anyone THAT in need of validation?


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (2.00 / 1)

I think you are missing the point. The super d's had to decide the nomination. There were lots of questions as to whether Obama could win in Nov. but no one listened to those concerns. They felt like the primaries weren't about finding the best candidate for the general election but about having a "first" or "making history" therefore issues and winning seemed not to be a priority. If the primary voters are getting that message then the response is to the effect that issues and winning aren't that important at least to the super d's who had to decide the nomination. And if you aren't serious about winning then you really aren't serious about things like the supreme court.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (2.00 / 1)

I think my point is that it's a dumb idea to overturn elections based on opinion. It was a dumb idea to award those extra few delegates in Michigan to Obama, too, for the record. The process is flawed, but the mechanism for overturning the recorded votes of the people is the most flawed part of it.

I find your "electability" argument to be one that reeks of fascism.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:13:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (none / 0)

I am completely serious about the Supreme Court. That is why I am voting for the candidate that will preserve balance.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:15:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (none / 0)

The super d's even went public to ambinder about Obama's problems. they felt that he had electability issues but felt pressured to nominate him. Of course, if he loses in Nov, the joke is really going to be on them.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And if he wins, will you be quiet? (none / 0)

Obama isn't the one with the 56% disapproval rating, and anyway, you can't read superdelegates' minds.


by corph on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 02:21:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (none / 0)

Pedantic correction:  No delegates were given from Clinton to Obama in Michigan.  First there were no delegates at all for either candidate, then there was a meeting where the Mi-DP was given some half-delegates, which were apportioned based on exit polls from the primary day.  The 'delegates taken from Clinton OMG!!11!' meme is a divisive falsehood best put to rest.  My correction is also divisive, I guess, but what can ya do?  Must go heal now.


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:03:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think while you write this (2.00 / 1)


There were lots of questions as to whether Obama could win in Nov. but no one listened to those concerns. They felt like the primaries weren't about finding the best candidate for the general election but about having a "first" or "making history" therefore issues and winning seemed not to be a priority.

you mean this:
Clinton was electable, Obama is not.

But the truth is that the polling is ambiguous.  In fact a more than credible case can be made on polling that Obama was and is a better general election candidate.  

To argue that the Super-D's didn't consider the electability question is simply wrong.  They just didn't agree with your conclusion.


by fladem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 01:52:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (none / 0)

If the Supreme court argument is the only one that Obama really has then his is a very weak candidacy.

The idea that McCain is going to appoint justices who would overturn his signature piece of legislation, McCain-Feingold, is perplexing to me.  He was a member of the Gang of 14, remember?


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:28:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (none / 0)

McCain's already shown that he regards that law as a stunt and not a thing he should respect.


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (none / 0)

It is my basic argument. Really that & anything has to hopefully be better then the past 8 years we have suffered (we need a break from the GOP!) is the only reason that I would go out there. If he has someone on the ticket as his VP who I think has the ability to steer the ship for him if needed (& the ability to dominate as needed) I'd feel more faith.

And btw I extensively researched Obama prior to my NJ primary since I thought the hand was tipping his way.  I WANTED to like him & yet I wound up liking him less. This is why I have a pervasive problem too, he was a major candidate in the primary that I couldn't honestly campaign for which disappoints me since I went in highly gung ho.


by jrsygrl on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 03:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (2.00 / 5)

This is really fantastic stuff!  The Obama campaign could do a lot worse than emailing this to its field staff.  I'd probably stay away from talking about McCain's age, but that's about the only reservation I have.

I'd also add one thing, which is that patience is important.  Some folks have strong views that can't be turned around in one conversation, in which case the most important thing is to do no harm.  Make some of the good points suggested above and then respectfully leave.  Hopefully the next person or the next piece of news will keep pushing them in the right direction.


by TL on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:26:51 PM EST

I totally agree on patience (2.00 / 4)

You don't have to win these people over today. I remember arguing with a close friend in the summer of 2002. He had some beef with Tom Harkin and Tom Vilsack, and swore he wasn't going to vote for either in the general election. I tried everything I could think of to make him see that Harkin and Vilsack, while flawed, were way better than the Republican alternatives. Finally, I gave up.

In October, this friend casually mentioned that he had turned in his absentee ballot and voted straight ticket Democrat.

As for McCain's age, I wouldn't advise the Obama campaign to push this talking point or direct field staff to use it. However, I do think it's effective for "freelance volunteers" to raise it.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:33:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (2.00 / 1)

Some great advice. Excellent post.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:27:47 PM EST

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (none / 0)

Let me give you some advice.  Nothing you said is particularly new.  You might want to take time and think and realize that Obama supporters are not the mindless idiots you take them for and Obama won this campaign because he connects with people and supporters did not mindlessly follow some script but instead talked to people with their heads and hearts.


by Piuma on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:28:24 PM EST

it never ceases to amaze me (2.00 / 8)

how angry some Obama fans are in victory.

Hey, Piuma, your guy won.

And I can assure you from the time I've spent talking with Obama supporters this year that my advice will be "new" to many of them.

They make the same mistakes over and over again when they talk to non-supporters.

I see some of the same problems in the comment threads at Daily Kos, where I waste too much time.

Your comment has the same effect as the comments I cited above, where the Obama supporters gush about how amazing and inspirational Obama is to so many people. That isn't going to help unite the party.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:36:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Keep blaming us (2.00 / 1)

See, you keep blaming the other side.  What is happening this year, is the same thing that happens in every election.  The only difference is that how close things are.

Look at the comment that Ga6thDem  already posted above.  Once again, arguing already that the DNC put the wrong person in place.

First of all, it was THE VOTERS who put Obama where he is.  There is going to be no way to win the argument with people who come right out of the block stating that Obama's win is illegitimate.  The GOP is already playing this game.   Look at how McCain started his speech,  "Pundits and Party leaders"   Most Hillary supporters are already buying into the GOP bullsh*t.

Secondly, yeah, I am inspired, and I am sorry you are not.   I am not going to temper my inspiration or my enthusiasm just because Obama won.  All I can do is point someone to factual information to show how BHO and HRC are on the same page for 95%+ of the issues.  

But that doesn't work either.  I have tried already.  Look at most of the comments here on mydd.  Hillary supporters willfully ignore it.  They argue that Obama lied or will lie or whatever.

Finally, they keep wanting us to apoligize for winning.  Why?  Again, I can not tell you how many times I have read that Obama was too aggressive in the Primaries, and then people turn right around and say that he will be a wimp in the GE.  How does that even add up?

As I stated in an earlier post, post sides have stuck their fingers in their ears and are refusing to listen.  If you still refuse to vote for Obama, even after Hillary Clinton asked you to vote for Obama, then there is nothing I can ever do to change your mind.  If the leader of your cause, if your hero can not convince you, then nobody can.


by monkeyga on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keep blaming us (2.00 / 6)

Nobody is asking you to apologize for feeling inspired by Obama.  The point of this diary is to suggest to you that talking about how inspirational he is is NOT the most effective way to win over new supporters to his candidacy.


"I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned."--John McCain
by lorax on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:58:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keep blaming us (2.00 / 2)

Right.  If someone isn't already "inspired" [gag] by Obama, chances they aren't going to be.   "Inspired" should not be a requirement for voting for Obama and it's actually a damned lousy argument.


by InigoMontoya on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Those who were (2.00 / 4)

open to that approach have already been won over. What's needed now is a plan for the other 18 million or so of us.

This diary is a great start on that.


by Sadie Baker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:43:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keep blaming us (2.00 / 2)

First of all, it was THE VOTERS who put Obama where he is.
Really?
by usedmeat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it never ceases to amaze me (2.00 / 1)

It has nothing to do with anger.  What I object to is the arrogance and condescension which lies at the heart of the diary.  He'd be better off by saying: Obama supporters, tell me how to talk to others when I start working for him?  


by Piuma on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:58:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't understand part of your comment (2.00 / 6)

I am a woman, and I certainly have no intention of trying to work for Obama.

Trust me, I've got nothing on a lot of Obama supporters when it comes to arrogance and condescension.

And yes, many Obama supporters are bizarrely angry, and like whipping each other into an angry frenzy.

Do you spend any time at Daily Kos? Maybe you've noticed the last few months that Obama supporters write more diaries bashing Hillary than supporting Obama.

They rec more diaries bashing Hillary than supporting Obama.

They write more comments in diaries bashing Hillary than supporting Obama.

It's a turn-off even to someone like me, who doesn't like Hillary.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:42:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But that is no different than here (2.00 / 2)

This site was all about bashing Obama more than promoting Hillary.  They really never got into specific issues as to why they liked her better, just that they hated Obama.

If she were the nominee, I would see no reason to vote for her (other than she was a Democrat) based on the posts here.


by monkeyga on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:03:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But that is no different than here (2.00 / 1)

Questions about obama's friends and associates is bashing? Who knew?
by usedmeat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I really don't think (none / 0)

your description of DKOS is true.

If you go back and look at the rec'd diaries, the positive diaries far outweighed the attack Hillary diaries.

They were far more attack diaries on the rec list here.

Now I can't comment on what went on in the comments, because for the most part I didn't find the diaries to be much more than "yea for my team", and as a result I didn't read the comments. I tend to read the diaries on issues (particularly economics and healthcare) or on election mechanics.  Both types of diaries tend not incite flame wars.  

Here is what I have noticed over this cycle and the cycle in '04 (I was for Edwards - and DKOS wasn't a fun place to be in '04 among the Deaniacs then, either).  
*People who are actively working for a candidate are passionate.  If you give your money and your time to a candidate, it is VERY hard to argue without getting emotional.
*The emotion fades a couple of weeks after the race ends.  In my case it took me a Month to get behind Kerry emotionally in '04 and about the same time this cycle to get behind Obama.

The reason that the discussion will become less combative is because the topics here will change.     And when they do many old disputes will be mostly forgotten.  

2008 drew a lot of new people into blogsphere. A good percentage will leave in the next month with Clinton leaving the race.  That happened on DKOS after Dean dropped out.  Some will slowly migrate back depending on what happens in November.


by fladem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 01:37:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I haven't counted the rec list diaries (2.00 / 4)

but I honestly disagree that there were more positive diaries about Obama than negative diaries on Clinton.

There were times when five or six of the eight diaries on the rec list would be Hillary bashing fests.

There was one day when I counted six front-page posts at Daily Kos on Geraldine Ferraro and more than a dozen diaries about Geraldine Ferraro that made the rec list.

I am not sure any diaries made the rec list when the head of Obama's working group published a secret paper saying we should keep 60K to 80K troops in Iraq at least through the end of 2010.

There were many days when constructive, positive Obama diaries would not make the rec list at DKos, or would drop off quickly, even when they were written by "star diarists" like Populista and kid oakland.

The diaries attacking Hillary generated more comments and tended to stay on the rec list for a long time.

It is true that once Edwards was out of the race, attack diaries on Obama started to dominate the rec list at MyDD, but even here pro-Obama diaries had a decent chance of making the rec list if they were by prominent authors such as Bob Johnson or kid oakland.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 02:12:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have now read this comment, the one above (2.00 / 1)

and the diary several times.

I think he has a point (though he is to emotional in making it).  In my experience people expect you to defend your candidate. If you don't, they can sense that you aren't fully committed yourself, and that does more damage than you can hope to undo.  Some of the answers here don't fully meet the defend your candidate standards

It is possible to be polite to a voter and to disagree with them at the same time.

One last point:  The most effective way to deal with Clinton supporters is to find quotes from journalists talking about how similar their positions are.


by fladem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 02:03:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I take this point (2.00 / 3)

and maybe my tactic of trying to redirect the conversation does not adequately defend the candidate.

At the same time, I think people tend to tune you out once you start arguing with them. Listening to people and making them understand that you heard what they said really helps.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 02:14:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

tell it (none / 0)

This post is extremely demeaning and condescending to every person who has worked their heart out to get Obama to where his is.

Look at some of the comments already posted, it is obvious that a great number of Hillary supporters want nothing to do with reconciliation, at all.  They are determined to lose the election.  Not just sit back and do nothing, but to actually do everything in their power to lose the election this year.

I could ask the same thing of you as to why Hillary should be the VP nominee.  


by monkeyga on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:37:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

a "great number"? (2.00 / 4)

I am guessing that I have talked to a lot more real, live Hillary supporters in the non-blog world than you have.

It's absurd to say that they want nothing to do with reconciliation.

They are sick of being told they are low-information racists or afraid of change or whatever crap they hear from certain Obama supporters.

A friend of mine (who doesn't like Hillary) was a precinct captain for Edwards and an Edwards delegate at the county and district conventions. He never visits Daily Kos, MyDD or any other blog.

While waiting to sign in at the district convention, he had to listen to all this Hillary-bashing crap from some Obama delegates standing in the same line. He's probably told 20 people about what assholes they were.

This is the kind of person who will vote for Obama, but might have been motivated to put up a bumper sticker or a yard sign if he weren't so turned off by some of what he hears from Obama fans.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:46:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You probably have (none / 0)

I only know one real life Hillary supporter, my boss.  She is a 50-something voter who really supported Hillary more for her mother than for any other reason.  She wanted her mother to be able to have a woman President.  Her mother is now 79.

Up until that moment she had been planning to vote Obama.  So yes, by experience with Hillary supporters is almost all online or via radio talk shows.   Every other Democrat I know personally voted for either Obama or Edwards.

I spent all day Wednesday listening to 'so-called' liberal talk shows (on Satelite radio) where HRC supporter after HRC supporter kept saying that Obama would be worse than John McCain.  That he would be the worst President ever.  That they would rather re-elect W than to vote for Obama.

Granted, I think a lot of this was fanned by the hosts, but it was anything but productive.   When that is where the conversation starts, there is no where to go.


by monkeyga on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You probably have (2.00 / 1)

When that is where the conversation starts, there is no where to go.
No, the conversation started after the New Hampshire primary when obama surrogates played the "Bradley Effect" card to explain his loss.
by usedmeat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You utterly missed the point of this diary (2.00 / 6)

which is not about how to make Obama supporters feel nice that they picked the winning candidate.  It is about how to make supporters of other candidates get on board now that the primary is over.  Which part of that did you not get?


"I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned."--John McCain
by lorax on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (2.00 / 3)

Frankly, I've read a lot of what Obama's supporters have said with their heads and hearts on the blogs, and right now, they're a huge part of why I'm having trouble with Obama.

I like Obama more the less I hear from many of his supporters. I suspect I'm not the only one.


by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:27:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The supreme court argument (2.00 / 2)

In the past I've spoken with a couple of Hillary supporters (women) who didn't respond well to the supreme court argument.  I think bringing it up felt a bit like blackmail to them, or had the implication of reducing them to one-issue voters - their uterus.  I know my wife always gets upset when she feels people reduce her or other women to their reproductive capacity.  Perhaps it is best to lead with something else?  Or when talking about the court, make sure to point out the non RvW cases that democrats want to see upheld.


by patooker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:31:26 PM EST

it's not just Roe v Wade (2.00 / 2)

it's environmental and labor regulations and a whole lot of other things too.

Earlier this spring, when I would go into the Hillary-hating threads at DKos and urge people to support our nominee, whoever it is, because the Supreme Court hangs in the balance, a few people reacted the same way as your wife. They felt like it was blackmail for me to use the Supreme Court to pressure them to vote for Hillary.

I guess volunteers can use their best judgment on this one. In my experience, a lot of people who can't stand Obama say they are voting for him because of the Supreme Court.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's not just Roe v Wade (none / 0)

Yeah, those other issues are the key to the SC argument, throw in RvW as well, but make sure people know everything that could be overturned.

And actually my wife is an Obama supporter for other more substantive reasons. She just can't stand situations where her worth is her reproductive organs.


by patooker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:48:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The supreme court argument (none / 0)

I take it you're a guy... as a fellow Y-chromosome-bearer, I can say I tend to avoid bringing up abortion as an issue when talking to women, because it's too easy to sound patronizing or presumptuous.

I've seen women bring it up more directly without causing offense, so it may be a more acceptable approach coming from a woman.

If I were gonna try to push the issues, Roe vs. Wade wouldn't even be very high on the list, honestly. The economy, the war, and healthcare are pretty easy ways to distinguish between McCain and Obama.


by ZombieRoboNinja on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The supreme court argument (2.00 / 1)

Well, don't talk Roe then, it's not the final goal of a conservative SC.  Griswold is what men can bring up--right to privacy, foundation of the modern understanding of our Constitutional protections--when you need to explain why McCain is Not Acceptable.  Reproductive rights must always be high on the list, but if you want to be careful about it, Griswold v. Connecticut's the way to be hip.


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:50:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The supreme court argument (none / 0)

Health care wouldn't do it for me. Obama's plan will fail and will give the "free market" enthusiasts ammunition. It will set us back many years, and more will die.

Now, if those of you that might have some influence could get him to expand his plan to include everyone with a mandate, it would go a long way with me.


by splashy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 05:26:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The supreme court argument (none / 0)

Well the SC isn't JUST about RvW - there are a million & one reasons why having radicals on the SC would be devastating to our country; not just in the arena of reproductive rights.  To me it isn't a blackmail - it is just a fact.  If the SC wasn't at stake & times were better  I would feel the need as much to choke on it & vote for him; but I know the GOP would be disasterous again for our country. With Obama since I have less to go on, I have more hope that I am wrong about him OR that he might have some okay advisors to make things better then the GOP would do.


by jrsygrl on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 03:04:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (none / 0)

I'm sure Obama's campaign has a firm grasp of how to train its volunteers to represent him to all voter types.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:33:40 PM EST

Re: How to talk to non-supporters about Obama (none / 0)

Probably, but for those who don't make it to field offices, this would be good stuff to keep in mind when out and about living their lives.


by patooker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:35:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

perhaps they do (2.00 / 1)

but I hear a lot of things coming from Obama supporters that are counter-productive if the goal is to unite the party behind Obama.

Again, I am not talking just about blog comments, although it's a big problem on blogs. I am talking about real-world conversations.

I think that people who dislike Obama are probably better positioned to describe what kind of arguments can bring them around than people who have been on the Obama train for a year or more.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: perhaps they do (none / 0)

'I think that people who dislike Obama are probably better positioned to describe what kind of arguments can bring them around than people who have been on the Obama train for a year or more.'

If it's about "dislike," then no argument will change that.

The bottom line is anybody who would vote on their likes and dislikes is beyond convincing rationally. I despised John Kerry in 2004 and nothing could change my mind about it. But on election day I wans't dumb enough to help Bush because of it.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I supported Kerry in the primaries (2.00 / 3)

but I never made it my job to try to get Dean supporters to like him too. As long as they were voting for him, that was fine by me.

Too many Obama supporters seem to have a need for all Democrats to like Obama. If you're one of those people who doesn't feel inspired listening to Obama, it's a turn-off to hear other people go on about how amazing he is and how he's a once-in-a-lifetime candidate.

The point of this diary is not to help you make other Democrats like Obama. It's to help you reach out to people you disagree with in a way that will not further alienate them.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
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