MyDD :: Debate Over "Popular Vote" Is Not Useful

Debate Over "Popular Vote" Is Not Useful

by campaignmonitor, Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:01:12 PM EST

I cannot believe I got on here today and people are still debating the popular vote in a diary here today.

Look, no matter who you supported in the primary, this debate is not good for our party.

Obama won the majority of delegates in the primary race and is now our presumptive nominee.

As to the popular vote claims of everyone here, there are decent arguments on both sides.

But, you know what the key thing is?

It doesn't matter now.

Whoever got the popular vote -- congrats, good show.

Just stop freaking hashing over it. It only seeks to inflame anger and resentment on both sides and doesn't matter in our fight against McCain.

If you were a Clinton supporter and think she won the popular vote, be happy with your belief and move on.

If you were an Obama supporter and think he won the popular vote, be happy with your belief and move on.

Time to compete against McCain and fight for the values Clinton and Obama stand for. If you continue this stupid fight you are only holding up the healing of the party and the defeat of John McCain.

Poll

Votes: 11
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Popular Vote, Barack Obama (all tags)

Permalink :: 51 Comments :: Post a Comment

Re: Debate (1.00 / 0)

But... is the debate to not to debate it useful?

Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!

by aliveandkickin on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:03:39 PM EST

Re: Debate (none / 0)

Yes. Both sides in the party are well-served by putting to rest fractious debates that no longer matter.

"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."

by campaignmonitor on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

I don't think there's much to debate. If one counts Michigan Clinton won. If one only counts sanctioned or competitive contests Obama won. Because this disparity exists, most people regard the outcome as a tie. What's left to discuss?

by IncognitoErgoSum on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:07:37 PM EST

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

Please try not to prod people to getting into it. There decent arguments on both sides. Someone won, someone didn't. Ultimately, it matters not at all. Let's focus on McCain.

"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."

by campaignmonitor on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

Works for me.

by IncognitoErgoSum on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, (2.00 / 2)

She did win the popular vote and number two, if no one was allowed to campaign in Florida why did Obama get away with running ads there and having a press conference in Tampa? OOPS, I forgot, this is "unity time".

by handsomegent on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:21:02 PM EST

Re: Well, (none / 0)

Oh just stop. Are you helping anyone? It doesn't matter anymore. All things come to an end and now it's about time we focus on McCain.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, (none / 0)

Not just yet; I still have a few more things to say before the speech police kick me out.

by handsomegent on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, (none / 0)

No speech police. It is up to you. You must decide to do what is best for the party. You must decide what arguments are moot at this point and no longer matter.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:30:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (2.00 / 1)

I agree, with one reservation. As a Hillary supporter I am not going to let the MSM establish the meme that she is somehow dishonestly claiming the popular vote victory if I can help it.

by rocky on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:26:05 PM EST

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

That seems fair although the media has largely bought into her claim. Who won doesn't matter at this point.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

I don't care much about useful.

This is about respect.

If Obama supporters want Hillary supporters to jump on board the campaign with gusto, they need to concede this point.

Nobody's trying to deny legitimacy to his victory-- we just don't want people to discount our candidate's accomplishments.

by leisure on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:26:32 PM EST

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

Just stop. You don't have to agree with Obama supporters and they don't have to agree with you. There are decent arguments on both sides, especially if you just take a jaunt over to RealClearPolitics and see there are all sorts of counts. The primaries are over. It is time to focus on the general.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (2.00 / 2)

If Obama can't manage to give Hillary's campaign this tiny nugget of respect, then he'll have to win the general on his own.

All he'd have to say is, "If you count Michigan, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote."

That removes all the debate from the issue.

Would that be so hard?

by leisure on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

Look, there are all sorts of ways to put it but its all justifiably arguable, with both sides having good points and it DEFINITELY wouldn't help for him to bring it up. Then allegre would be on here in 2 second screaming about how Obama is trying to discount Hillary's popular vote claim somehow. The matter no longer matters. We need to move on. Agree to disagree everyone.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:38:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (2.00 / 1)

It matters to me, and a few other million Clinton supporters.

Get over THAT.

by leisure on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:39:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

That's great, both camp's supporters that believe their candidate won SHOULD be proud of it! It's a great accomplishment. But, now, he is the nominee and the popular vote argument does nothing anymore. There is nothing more to win. We need to fight to McCain.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:41:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

There's still the matter of how history will remember this primary.

And I'm not comfortable joining a campaign that's trying to stop the truth from becoming history.

by leisure on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:43:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

A fact is something like "Hillary won more delgates in NH" (she did). There are good arguments in her favor for the popular vote claim but, as you can see from looking at RCP, there are just as many good arguments on Obama's side. It is a debateable point and the debate is no longer useful for any purpose other than to piss Clinton or Obama people off. Agree to disagree, be proud of your chosen candidate and move on.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:46:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

When you add all the vote totals together, SHE WON.

There are no good arguments against this, just like there are no good arguments against "2 + 2 = 4".

I can understand why Obama supporters would rather add different numbers together-- "2 + 1.5 = 3.5" or why they'd rather substitute estimates "2 + (most recent polls * Y% of uncommitteds) but that doesn't change the fact that "2 + 2 = 4".

The longer Obama supporters persist in pushing this flawed meme, the more reluctant I am to join them.

by leisure on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:53:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

I am going to stop engaging you because you aren't listening to what I'm saying. I wish you the best in the next few weeks and hope you can come to understand why positions that contradict what you believe are "undebateable". RCP shows Clint lead in 3 types of popular vote counts, and shows Obama leading in 3 other types of counts. If you can't see that some people might have a valid reason to disagree, I encourage you to have a more open mind.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:56:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

I hear what you are saying, but reject that there are more than one "type" of "popular vote count", despite what it shows on RCP.

We all know what popular vote count means, and that's adding all the reported votes together.

Clinging to other definitions in attempt to deny Hillary her hard-earned consolation prize is insulting to me and others.

If you REALLY want to see the Democratic party united and working their hearts out for Obama, you should strongly consider making this token gesture.

by leisure on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

I came came back on to see what a friend said in a new post of hers and thought I'd come back and see what's up. It is not helpful for you to tell people that they have to abandon their opinion and embrace yours in order for you to be satisfied. It is not mature and does not help our effort. Have your opinion, others will have theirs. The time where the debate was useful is over. Hillary fought a great fight, so did Obama. he is now the nominee and we need to rally around and confront McCain. Insisting that people agree with you on a debatable point is not helping.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:46:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (2.00 / 1)

" It is not helpful for you to tell people that they have to abandon their opinion and embrace yours in order for you to be satisfied."

Kind of sounds like your whole argument telling Clinton supporters they have to STFU and take it like good soldiers is blown apart by your own words.

Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?

by emsprater on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:09:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

PS. Link: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/democratic_vote_count.htm l

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:46:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

That RCP is a piece of work.

They bury the actual definition of popular vote as the 3rd one down on a list of 6.

To determine popular vote, you ADD ALL THE REPORTED VOTE TOTALS TOGETHER FOR EVERY ELECTION.

That's the way it's always been. No withs and withouts, no asterisks, no estimates.

by leisure on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:15:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

So fuck Washington, Iowa, Maine and Nevada right? Because there were no votes officially reported? I'm not passing judgment at this point as to who is right. THE DEBATE JUST ISNT HELPFUL NOW. It is not helpful for you to tell people that they have to abandon their opinion and embrace yours in order for you to be satisfied. It is not mature and does not help our effort. Have your opinion, others will have theirs. The time where the debate was useful is over. Hillary fought a great fight, so did Obama. he is now the nominee and we need to rally around and confront McCain. Insisting that people agree with you on a debatable point is not helping.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

If caucus states thought that popular vote was the metric, they would have tried to get their state legislatures to fund primaries.

We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.

by politicsmatters on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:52:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

Continuing to dis my candidate is not helping either.

And he's not the nominee until the supers vote at the convention. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt by calling him the presumptive.

by leisure on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

As if anything written on this blog, today, will have anything to do with what future historians say.

Guess what -- it won't.

We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.

by politicsmatters on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:51:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

Grow.

the fuck.

up.

"More War Years! More War Years!" ~John McCain

by Tommy Flanagan on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

Shorter leisure: "Kiss our ass, Obamabots!"

Who won the popular vote (1) depends on how you want to count, and (2) doesn't matter at all. Just get over it.

by username on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:34:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Just get over it". (none / 0)

I don't think so.

Sort of like - "Love it or Leave it".

Not your call.

Each one will determine his/her own reaction.

Don't need nameless, faceless typist's advice.

Some need to get over their need to control or the thought they're able to control the actions and thoughts of others.

They can't.

Sorry.

by susie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Just get over it". (none / 0)

I forgot for a moment that this the internet, where one can never be too precise or too impolite. So rather than the imperative "get over it," let me spell things out: I will consider honest discussion with them fruitful when they quit with the whiny mendacity. Until then, there's no point in doing anything more than correcting their lies for third parties reading the thread, and occasionally poking the dishonest goofs with a virtual stick.

by username on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:56:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debate Over "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

"Nobody's trying to deny legitimacy to his victory"

Um, where have you been? Lots and lots of people have been trying to deny legitimacy to his victory. Nobody would care about this if many people hadn't been using popular vote as part of that arguemnt.

But if you want me to concede the point that Hillary won the popular vote if you count Michigan, I freely concede it.

Of course I don't think Michigan should be counted (nor Florida either, and once upon a time Hillary Clinton agreed with me), but that's what a difference of opinion is all about.

by Aris Katsaris on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:09:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There really isn't a debate (2.00 / 1)

The fact is that Hillary won the popular vote, so I agree that there is no reason for debate.

by Chelsea in 2020 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:29:21 PM EST

Re: There really isn't a debate (none / 0)

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:31:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There really isn't a debate (none / 0)

Why do you keep posting that over and over again? Stating that Hillary won more popular votes is a fact like stating that BO won more delegates. I don't see the debate, facts are facts.

by Chelsea in 2020 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:36:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There really isn't a debate (none / 0)

It's not a fact. Look at RCP: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/democratic_vote_count.htm l There are different takes on it and both camps have decent arguments. Just believe that Hillary won the vote and be done with it.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:39:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There really isn't a debate (2.00 / 3)

Obama - 17,869,542 47.4%
Clinton - 18,046,007 47.9%

Looks to me that Hillary won the popular vote according to that link. So again, there is no reason for debate, she won the popular vote.

by Chelsea in 2020 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:47:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There really isn't a debate (none / 0)

Please stop being like this. Go to the link and you see 3 other popular vote totlas that show Obama winning. The point is debateable and serves no purpose now. Believe what you believe. I don't want to convince you. Just stop trying to make others agree with you. You have good points and so do they.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it's easily explainable... (1.66 / 3)

...once you realize the "uncommitted" is actually obama's middle name ;-)

by campskunk on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Third option (none / 0)

How about option 3: doesn't matter at all, and will be forgotten in a few weeks?

by username on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:35:27 PM EST

Re: Third option (none / 0)

Good point

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Popular Vote trolls? (none / 0)

Well put, 'campaignmonitor.' Thanks.

I hesitated over recommending this diary only because it might inadvertently serve to prolong the arguments. But ignoring them isn't making them go away either. So I indeed hit that button up to the right. Maybe we need to define another kind of troll: the popular vote troll.

If we ignore them, will they go away?

The future is unwritten

by Strummerson on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:36:02 PM EST

Re: Popular Vote trolls? (none / 0)

Not likely.

This is going to be like Hillary's refusal to admit her vote on Iraq was wrong.

Obama and supporters should admit it now, so that the two campaigns can merge. Refusing to admit it will only prolong the division.

by leisure on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:38:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Primary vs. Popular (none / 0)

I may be wrong about this, but on Tuesday and since then I have only heard Hillary and her top surrogates claim she won the primary vote. Of course the media hasn't been helping because they dumb it down and claim that she claims she won the popular vote. Which is of course, not what she said.

And then to add further confusion the 18mil votes figure counts all the votes (including caucuses).

by lloyd on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:41:04 PM EST

Re: Primary vs. Popular (none / 0)

I agree there are good points on that side, and on hers.

Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.

by oregonkcg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:42:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

re (none / 0)

Votes don't matter, we saw that in 2000

by rossinatl on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:59:49 PM EST

Even if we concede that Hillary won the popular vote, my question is, so what? Why do people care so much either way? What's the point in bringing it up or defending it?

by ProfessorReo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:18:46 PM EST

The fact that you continue to squall and fuss about Teh Rulz indicates that you know very well that the circumstances of his nomination are artificial. You need to accept that there is a big, fat asterisk next to Obama's name in the history books, and it will be to note the way in which the DNC manipulated delegate counts to prevent full votes by 50 states. Sorry, they did and yelling about rules will not erase that mark.

http://anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008/06/b ittersweet-acceptance.html

by campskunk on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:14:50 AM EST

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