Point of no Return

As much I love Hillary, it is time for me to stop.
She repeated multiple times today to the point when my blood was about to boil:
"We must help to elect Barack Obama as president".
Thanks Mrs. Clinton, but no thanks!
No my support for that man from me and shame you,
Democrats, RBC, DNC and all those people who
forced Hillary to say this speech today.

I just get 2008 Presidential Campaign Survey from DNC with 17 questions, including request for contribution.
And I return it with my honest and refusal to support people who did what RBC did.
I will publish this survey with my answers as an update of this diary or as separate diary or, if I will be banned, on other site.
But it is obvious what questions are and what my answers are.



Display:


Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 4)

Your best work!  Good for you engels.  You should print it out and ask someone to tape it to your fridge.  Gold star!


by reconad on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:21:37 PM EST

Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 1)

she will come around but if you dont please make sure u vote democrat on all down tickets. I don't hate you or think you should not be a dem . I think in due course of time hopefully we give and show our respect for hillary --- enough  for you reconsider...

one speech wont get everyone to flip to obama's side and we understand your emotions...


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:44:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Thanks.  Perhaps I should have layered the snark a little more thoroughly.  


by reconad on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Obama and me cannot be on the same side


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:14:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 4)

Please leave our party alone.

We want to build America, and you want to destroy it.

If you can't support Hillary or Obama then just leave us alone.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:21:53 PM EST

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

it is not YOUR party. it was my party but i cannot be in the same party as Obama.


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:49:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 4)

Good bye and good luck.  


by ProfessorReo on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:21:54 PM EST

Then you need to go a site where you (2.00 / 4)

can feel at home. That place is not here.


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:22:29 PM EST

You're right...it IS obvious. Why update? eom (2.00 / 1)


by Liberal Monk on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:22:52 PM EST

Re: You're right...it IS obvious. Why update? eom (none / 0)

you convinced me. see http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/6/7/17292 4/0127


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:32:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why do you love Hillary? (none / 0)


The plural of anecdote is not data.
by LiberalDebunker on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:23:04 PM EST

Perhaps (2.00 / 3)

you should consider stop writing diaries for a while.  Some time and some reflection may move you to a new place, either to support Obama or away from Democratic blogs, whichever makes more sense for you.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:23:16 PM EST

Oh yeah, you love Hillary (2.00 / 3)

So you're going to abandon every cause she's ever worked for in her life.  

If you're a Republican, deal with it.  But don't come in and tell people that you're a supporter of Hillary Clinton.  Who do you think she is?  


by Sun Dog on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:23:55 PM EST

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (none / 0)

So you're going to abandon every cause she's ever worked for in her life.
The Democratic party has already abandoned causes that they worked for all their lives.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:30:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (2.00 / 4)

Okay you are a troll. That is enough. Democrats have yet to vote against Abortion, against civil rights, against healthcare so to say that the democrats have ignored the values  of democrats is disgusting. Go away because I am voting dammit for Barack Obama because he will uphold the values of the democratic party.

Go away if you want to bash the party. GO AWAY!


by sweet potato pie on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:35:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (none / 0)

Okay you are a troll. That is enough.
Are you the administrator of this site? If not I respect your OPINION but do not agree with it.
Democrats have yet to vote against Abortion, against civil rights, against healthcare so to say that the democrats have ignored the values  of democrats is disgusting.
I will continue to support a Democratic congress. I just won't be forced to vote because people like you will call me a troll if I don't...That's NOT the American way.
Go away because I am voting dammit for Barack Obama because he will uphold the values of the democratic party.
I respect your right to vote the way you feel like, you ought to respect my right to vote...or not.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (none / 0)

This site is about electing all democrats if you don't want to elect a dem in the white house it is time for you to leave this site.


by sweet potato pie on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:53:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (none / 0)

Oh, I definitely want to elect Democrats, I just don't want to contribute my vote to Obama. This is not MyDDObama.

BTW, it's not your place to tell me to leave.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The DNC is not DNObama (1.00 / 1)

You moron.  Make a coherent argument.


by Regenman on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:00:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Right back at ya! (none / 0)

Thank you :D


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:01:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The DNC is not DNObama (none / 0)

no unity with people like you


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:17:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Someone telling you that you're wrong (none / 0)

Isn't the same as someone questioning your right to vote.  That's a bullshit stawman.  Can you show that you're not wrong?  Because you can't you pretend this person is questioning your rights.  You have a right to think John McCain is an acceptable option.  Democrats have a right to tell you you're dead wrong.  


by Sun Dog on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:41:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (2.00 / 1)

While I do not agree that you are a troll, I am curious.

To which causes do you refer?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:36:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (none / 0)

The cause of Southern Independence, perhaps.

I can't think of any cause that the Democrats abandoned the 20th or 21st century, though.


by Aris Katsaris on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:39:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (2.00 / 2)

We abandoned our commitment to segregation in the '60s.

It was a hundred years too late.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:52:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Saying 'we' is a bit misleading (none / 0)

The Dixiecrats of the early 20th Century are not the Democrats of today.  Ask Zell Miller.  Ask Ronald Reagan or Strom Thurmond.

There are times in history I would be a Republican, just not in a long time.  


by Sun Dog on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:43:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Democratic Party not so Democratic (2.00 / 1)

The way the party ran the primary election was pitiful. Penalizing some states and not penalizing other states for doing the same thing. Counting a half vote for MI and FL. Even caucuses are undemocratic. I'm betting that this will change in the furture which will prove that they too realize it's an undemocratic process. Many of us already realize this.

The undemocratic caucuses are a terrible way to choose a presidential candidate.

It is quite astonishing to see with what deadpan and neutral a tone our press and television report the open corruption--and the flagrantly anti-democratic character--of the Iowa caucuses. It's not enough that we have to read of inducements openly offered to potential supporters--I almost said "voters"--even if these mini-bribes only take the form of "platters of sandwiches" and "novelty items" (I am quoting from Sunday's New York Times). It's also that campaign aides are showing up at Iowan homes "with DVD's that [explain]  how the caucuses work." Nobody needs a DVD to understand one-person-one-vote, a level playing field, and a secret ballot. The DVD and the other gifts and goodies (Sen. Barack Obama is promising free baby-sitting on Thursday) are required precisely because none of those conditions applies in Iowa. In a genuine democratic process, these Tammany tactics would long ago have been declared illegal. But this is not a democratic process, and besides, as my old friend Michael Kinsley used to say about Washington, the scandal is never about what's illegal. It's about what's legal.

http://www.slate.com/id/2181008/


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:53:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic Party not so Democratic (none / 0)

I never thought that running sane, effective, predictable, reproducible, and fair primaries was a Democratic cause.  Frankly, I can think of way, way, way too many examples of the opposite.

I understand that you're unhappy with the situation.  I am emphatically not attacking you for that.  I just don't see the world as you do right now.  I am not opposed to learning, obviously, but I think we have all been poorly served by our respective tribalism.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:55:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic Party not so Democratic (none / 0)

You don't think the Democratic Party should represent a Democratic election process?

Well if you don't think that it's important whether or not the people's vote is fairly represented, then you truly do not believe in a government by the people.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:04:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic Party not so Democratic (none / 0)

That's not what I said at all.  Please read the words I write, not the ones you'd prefer I have written.

The Democratic Party has no history of treating democratic elections as a core cause or issue.  Not really.  Certainly not in the selection of a candidate.  Backroom dealing, ballot-stuffing, and god knows what else have been going on for as long as this party has existed.

I never said I approved of this, you understand.  Stating a historical fact is not the same thing as endorsing it.  

You made an assertion that I disagreed with, and I still do.  Had you said that the Democratic party had done something you found immoral or unwise, I would not have taken issue.  That's not, however, what you said.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:17:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic Party not so Democratic (none / 0)

"The Democratic Party has no history of treating democratic elections as a core cause or issue."
They really should...They always talk about equal rights.

"Backroom dealing, ballot-stuffing, and god knows what else have been going on for as long as this party has existed"
Yes, I'm now more aware of this than ever before. My eyes are wide open. I also recently found out that Obama was the only one on the ballot when he became a Illinois state senator.

The day after New Year's 1996, operatives for Barack Obama filed into a barren hearing room of the Chicago Board of Election Commissioners.

There they began the tedious process of challenging hundreds of signatures on the nominating petitions of state Sen. Alice Palmer, the longtime progressive activist from the city's South Side. And they kept challenging petitions until every one of Obama's four Democratic primary rivals was forced off the ballot. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local /chi-070403obama-ballot,0,1843097.story


To Obama's credit he "played by the rules." He's a real pro.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:41:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic Party not so Democratic (none / 0)

But what does any of that have to do with Senator Obama?

These processes have been in place for years.  If you're resolving not to vote for the winner that they produce then...

why are you here?


I have that readiness.
by Jess81 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic Party not so Democratic (none / 0)

But what does any of that have to do with Senator Obama?
nothing.
These processes have been in place for years.  If you're resolving not to vote for the winner that they produce then...
IMO, there should be reform.

why are you here?
Apparently, the administrator thinks I'm A-OK so far. Therefore, I have every right to be here whether you like it or not.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:43:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, but it's getting old (none / 0)

You will get troll rated right off the site if your goal is to try to undermine the Democratic nominee.  


by Sun Dog on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do what you gotta do (none / 0)

Democratic party believes in freedom to vote or not to vote. Do you? Apparently not.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:00:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh go stick your strawman (none / 0)

Anytime someone tells you you're wrong about something you whine that you're being disenfranchised.  I don't believe in the freedom to vote?  Seriously, what the hell is that?

Do you believe in the right for someone to tell you when they disagree with you?  Or are you trying to deny me my first ammendment rights?

Some of us believe in the Constitution around here?  Do you?  Apparently not.

Hey, that's fun!


by Sun Dog on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:03:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Vote for whoever you want (none / 0)

go to Redstate and talk about it, not here.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic Party not so Democratic (none / 0)

But your problem is with the Democratic Party as it was before Barack Obama was nominated; the process you criticize was concieved and maintained by a party leadership where the Clintons carried much weight.

Why do you put the blame on Obama for this? He did not define the rules of the game. He played the rules, he outplayed Clinton. Had the rules been different, no doubt he and she would have played differently, and nobody knows who would have won.

I agree that the party made a huge mistake by applying the maximal penalty to MI and FL, instead of the minimal penalty. But there again, how can you concievably consider that Obama is responsible in any way for that?  


by french imp on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:15:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic Party not so Democratic (none / 0)

But your problem is with the Democratic Party as it was before Barack Obama was nominated;
Most of us didn't realize the complexity of the "Democratic" primary process. I wasn't that familiar with the causus process because we don't have this in my state. This election brought the flaws to  the forefront due to the fact that the race was so close. That's the one good thing that happened. "Change" will come.

BTW, I do not blame Obama for this, I blame the Democratic Party.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic Party not so Democratic (none / 0)

Then can I assume you wouldn't have voted for Hillary Clinton either?


I have that readiness.
by Jess81 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:29:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democratic Party not so Democratic (none / 0)

I won't vote for Obama because he's a flawed candidate...that has nothing to do with the flawed primary process.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then stop bitching about it (none / 0)

Obviously you're problem is Obama and not with the Democrats like you say.

so stop grasping at straws.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:44:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd like to hear your answer (none / 0)

to Jess's question...would you have voted for Hillary Clinton then? Because she would've won by the same process you see as undemocratic, no?

So I guess you wouldn't vote for any Democrat this year, right?


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:34:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd like to hear your answer (none / 0)

My vote would have been the same. What does that have to do with the primary process? I don't blame Obama for the flawed primary process. I didn't vote for Obama because I think he's a flawed candidate.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

of course Obama is flawed - they all are (none / 0)

It's a good thing you have a flawless alternative like McCain (or Barr or McKinney).

Lucky you.


by emptythreatsfarm on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Which is it (none / 0)

first you say your problem is not with Obama, but with the party, but now you say the exact opposite.

Which is it?


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:45:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You said before you blamed Obama (none / 0)

which is it?

Why can't you be honest about why you don't like Obama?


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:12:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (none / 0)

"The Democratic party has already abandoned causes that they worked for all their lives."

The only cause the Democratic Party has was electing Hillary Clinton President?


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:46:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Simple minded.... (none / 0)

You seem to have a very simple thought process..."My candidate won, therefore there is nothing wrong with the process." If you check out the internet in reference to this issue, you will see that there are MANY articles that substantiat my opinion that the Democratic party primary election process in undemocratic. http://www.slate.com/id/2181008/


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:00:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Simple minded.... (none / 0)

And I think you're making a similar mistake.

"My candidate lost therefore her loss was caused by systemic flaws in the primary/caucus system and sexism by the media and the male portions of the party."

I also suggest you read the comments by diarists, such as myself (and I was far from alone) who have been saying for months that we need to fix this system before 2012.

Our gripe has been, this whole time, that you cannot fairly change the system in the middle of a nomination process.  It simply will not work.

And before you reply that this system cost Senator Clinton the nomination (which is academic.  She might have won or lost under other systems, we cannot know that), please remember that given the incredible planning of the Obama campaign strongly suggests that they would have planned appropriately for any other system we might have used.

Obama hired some very smart, capable, and remarkably quiet people to do this.  They probably would have done very well under any other sane system.

Senator Clinton fought very, very hard.  However, up until a few months ago, her campaign didn't fight very smart.  That cost her.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:05:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Simple minded.... (none / 0)

And I think you're making a similar mistake.
My candidate did lose...your candidate won through an undemocratic process; it's as simple as that.

also suggest you read the comments by diarists, such as myself
Heh :D FYI; I would rather read articles than opinions from a blogger that assumes a process OK because it worked for them. Obama played within "the rules." I have no beef with him, but the process in my opinion needs to be re-assessed. I have NO DOUBT that this process will change in the near future. YOU WILL SEE it change whether you'll admit the process was flawed or not is another thing.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:14:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Simple minded.... (2.00 / 1)

Had your candidate won, she would have won through an equally undemocratic process (or so you say);

Would you have vehemently complained in that case?


by french imp on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Simple minded.... (none / 0)

Had your candidate won, she would have won through an equally undemocratic process (or so you say)
exactly

Would you have vehemently complained in that case?
Maybe not as compassionate about it, but UNLIKE YOU, I can always admit when a process is flawed.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Simple minded.... (none / 0)

" also suggest you read the comments by diarists, such as myself (and I was far from alone) who have been saying for months that we need to fix this system before 2012."

Those are my words, in the post you just responded to.  In your response:

"YOU WILL SEE it change whether you'll admit the process was flawed or not is another thing."

I'm asking, no, I'm begging you to respond to the words I actually write, not the ones you'd prefer I have written.

I've been saying for as long as I've posted here that the process is flawed, deeply flawed.  I want it fixed.

I've BEEN SAYING THAT.  What's your damage?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where were you (none / 0)

last summer complaining about it?

You don't get to protest AFTER the fact. Change it for next time. You don't get to bitch about the rules of the game after it's played, sorry.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:06:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where were you (none / 0)

That's irrelevent. Was anyone complaining about the process when Al Gore "lost?"


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:15:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 0)

and we moved on and worked to fix it. We ran another race in 2004 by the same rules and are running another in 2008 by the same rules because we haven't changed them yet.

We didn't all surrender our American citizenships because of it!


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:32:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where were you (none / 0)

Which process?  The process that forced a court-ordered recount to stop and had the Florida secretary of state certify an illegal and invalid result?

Yes.  We complained during and after.

Or are you talking about the electoral college vs. the popular vote thing.  That just bolstered the way most of us feel - that the electoral college is outdated and anti-democratic, but it's clear that it's the law of the land.  It's also a totally different issue.


I have that readiness.
by Jess81 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:33:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (none / 0)

You mean the Dems aren't for labor, or choice, or diplomacy, or for progressive taxation, or the environment?


The plural of anecdote is not data.
by LiberalDebunker on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (none / 0)

what are you 13? you sound like one of those spoiled kids on that MTV super sweet 16 show


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:43:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah, you love Hillary (none / 0)

you are very right. they promised to stop war in Iraq and impeach Bush. Did they?


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:34:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 2)

I don't understand why you would revoke your support for Hillary Clinton now, after having supported her enthusiastically for so long.

Hillary Clinton's ability to author effective legislation is contingent in large part on having a Democratic president to sign those bills into law.  Why drop your support for her work now by not supporting the Democratic nominee?


by davisb on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:24:46 PM EST

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

I know your not asking me...but I supported Clinton's run for office but she does not own my vote. It's as simple as that.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:29:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

So you don't support her work as a Senator?


by davisb on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 1)

Sorry, I don't walk the party line. Voting or not, is a right in this country and whether or not I supporter Clinton's past work is irrelevent. If I don't think someone will make a good president, I'm not voting for him just because Hillary Clinton told me to. I don't agree with any politician 100%.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:35:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 2)

It's not about past work, it's about future work.  Hillary Clinton is a powerful Senator.  Her future work is contingent upon having a Democrat to sign her bills into law.

If you voted for Hillary because you agreed with her goals and objectives for this country, why would you ever try to impede that work by supporting someone who will veto her legislation?

Vote for Obama because he'll make possible everything Hillary Clinton is trying to do in the senate.


by davisb on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:39:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

It's not about past work, it's about future work.
Heh. If you're so concerned about her work, you should have voted for her. You guys crack me up. :D


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Whether or not I am concerned about her work (as a Democrat, I am) isn't the point.  YOU should be concerned with her work.

Hillary Clinton isn't going to go away, she's going to return to the Senate, where she will continue fighting for all the stuff she laid out in her campaign.

As a Senator, she will continue that fight by writing bills, bills the US President will then either sign or veto.  Please tell me why you, someone who wholeheartedly SUPPORTS Hillary Clinton's work, would chose to impede all she is trying to do by voting for someone who will veto her legislation. How does that in any way make any sort of sense?


by davisb on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:59:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Great! That doesn't mean I have to vote Obama.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

If you want a president who will sign Hillary Clinton's Senate legislation then you should.  Not doing so would imply to me a lack of support for Hillary Clinton.


by davisb on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:07:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

If you want a president who will sign Hillary Clinton's Senate legislation then you should.
You know, you really ought to respect other people's decision on whether to vote or not. There are many reasons why a person votes...or not.

Not doing so would imply to me a lack of support for Hillary Clinton.
Hillary does not own my vote.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:15:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

It has nothing to do with Hillary, or anyone, telling you what to do.  Nothing.

Do you support what Hillary Clinton said she wanted to do as President?  I assume the answer is Yes.  Is Hillary Clinton going to continue working toward those same goals as a Senator?  Yes.  Does she need a Democratic President to sign her bills in order for them to become law?  Absolutely.

Not voting for the Democrat makes it all but impossible for Hillary Clinton to do the things she continually said throughout her campaign she wanted to do.  It's a slap in her face.


by davisb on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

You know, you really ought to respect other people's decision on whether to vote or not.

This card isn't working.  As you well know, nobody's disrespecting your ability to vote however you damn please.  This is a public discussion site, though, and if you offer your non-vote for the Democratic nominee as a subject for discussion, you can't just foreclose all criticism of it with that weak tactic.

What would help would be if you could explain exactly how sitting out the election will help get anything that Clinton fought for put into place.  Nothing convincing yet.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

But you seem to disagree with one politician 100%...


by french imp on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

When it comes to my vote....yes I do. That's my right whether to vote or not.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Do you vote for policies or personalities?


The plural of anecdote is not data.
by LiberalDebunker on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:29:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

I vote for someone I can trust...Obama, I don't trust.

Clinon has a proven history IMO...keep in mind, I am speaking for myself, NOT FOR YOU.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:54:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Barack Obama will sign Hillary Clinton's legislation, John McCain will veto it.  

Voting for someone who will veto all of Hillary Clinton's work as a Senator is an absolute slap in the face.


by davisb on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:01:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Who said I was voting for McCain?


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:02:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Well Bob Barr and Ralph Nader aren't going to be signing any of her legislation either.


by davisb on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Trust in what way?


The plural of anecdote is not data.
by LiberalDebunker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:05:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

i support her work.


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:52:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Then why would you ever vote for the man who would veto that work?

If you really supported what she's doing in the Senate, then you'd vote for the person who will sign her bills into law.  Only Barack Obama will do that.


by davisb on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No you don't (none / 0)


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

No, then you aren't a real supporter of Hillary and what she stands for. You weren't truly a Hillary supporter because if you were, you would vote for what she stands for and that is the democratic party's values. I know she would be very disappointed.


by sweet potato pie on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Go vote for McCain then (2.00 / 2)

and while you're at it, sign up to go to Iraq, and get ready to send your children and their children as well...100 years is going to require a lot of fresh bodies.  


Go back to Hussein Texas
by gobacktotexas on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:41:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go vote for McCain then (none / 0)

that is BS.


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:53:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go vote for McCain then (none / 0)

the Supreme Court, the lives of thousands more young Americans and countless Iraqis, B.S. indeed my friend.   That is quite a powerful comeback you have there.  


Go back to Hussein Texas
by gobacktotexas on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:10:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (1.00 / 1)

if Obama is Democratic Nominee, I cannot support him. He is a bad candidate with no experience, no judgment and with very bad associations.
 He has no knowledge of specifics and has no my trust. His supporters misbehave so much that any thought to unite with them making me very upset
Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:37:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

At least (none / 0)

he has a better grasp of the English language than you do.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: At least (none / 0)

Yes, he does and when Senator Biden complimented Obama in an interview saying he was 'articulate' they played the race card on Biden saying it was meant as an insult to black people. Go figure.


by Justwords on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No one said that (none / 0)

I never said that, Obama never said that, all the Obama supporters I know never said that.

Which is why the issue died after about a day.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: At least (none / 0)

saying that a black man is "articulate" IS insulting to African Americans. And to whites like me who are offended by racist comments.

Don't you get it????

When you praise one black guy for being "articulate" it implies or suggests that most are not, and that one should be surprised at seeing a black man who can speak well.

Think of all of the stereotypes against blacks in this country. What is the biggest lie? It is the "blacks are stupid and uneducated" lie. The "articulate" comment only feeds that ugly stereotype and lie. It isn't acceptable.

Biden isn't a racist I am sure but he fed into the mindset that shows surprise at a black who sounds educated. And a politician like Biden SHOULD be smart enough to know that the "articulate" backhanded "complement" is pretty famous as a way to insult an African American. A smart politician knows not to say it.

Don't we have a goal to root out racism against blacks in this country??? Isn't that a major goal of this Democratic party? Then lets get to it.

I am a white male and I for one am waiting to hear all of these so called progressive bloggers really address the problem of anti-black racism in this country, in our party and even on these blogs.


by denniswine on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:14:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 1)

Bye.


by neonplaque on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:26:20 PM EST

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton has two choices:

Walk the party line or not.

If she didn't walk the party line the pundits and the Democratic party would tear her up. She did what she needed to do.

I respect Hillary Clinton; that being said she does not own my vote.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:27:49 PM EST

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

I would hope she doesn't own your vote.

This is America and it will be a cold day in hell when I let any politician own anyone's vote.

Especially in our party.

Democracy is a lovely thing and I appreciate and respect Hillary Clinton's participation in the said process.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 1)

You are correct, of course.  Your vote is your own, and I do respect that principle.

I am curious, however.  Is it not possible that she's telling the truth today?  Is it not possible that she really believes what she's saying, and that this is the best option, the best outcome, she sees at this point?

She's rolling with the punches, as it were.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

no it is not possible. she knows that obama will lose. DNC gang forced her today to say something against her will.


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Same as you "knew" that Hillary would win the nomination?

And how did they "force" her exactly? Mind-control?

You can't have it both ways. Either she's an honorable politician that's truthfully urging you to do what's best for your country by voting for Obama, or she's a dishonorable politician whose endorsement is fake.

You can't have it both ways. By definition she can't be an honest politician whose endorsement is fake.

Do you trust Hillary or don't you? You can say she errs, but you can't both trust her and argue that her endorsement is a LIE.


by Aris Katsaris on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

lie


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:34:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

So you're arguing that Clinton's dishonorable and untrustworthy?


by Aris Katsaris on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

she was tortured to say it.
i am wondering what you will say if enemy will capture you and apply all possible pain and force?
these guys are gangsters, start with RBC.
Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:09:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

Um... what the hell? Tortured? Waterboarding, sleep deprivation, stress positions, and the like? You actually believe she was tortured?

Have you descended into self-parody here? Or are you merely insane?


by Aris Katsaris on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:17:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As the grandson of a man (none / 0)

tortured by the Japanese..

you're an asshole who deserves to be a Republican. Get the fuck out. You don't deserve any respect.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:05:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

she was tortured to say it.

engels, your trolling was going so well until you wrote this!  A line like that makes me think you're not even trying anymore.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't let the door (2.00 / 1)

blah blah blah


by parahammer on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:28:10 PM EST

Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 1)

The other site being what? Free Republic?


by Drummond on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:29:33 PM EST

Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 2)

engels, I won't tell you to go away or bye.  All I ask is for you to read my diaries about why it is important to support Hillary's cause:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/29/1032 37/579
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/6/1/19192 9/0064

and how I finally swallowed the bitter pill

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/27/2125 57/815


by colebiancardi on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:31:40 PM EST

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

i will read them; where you want me to post my comments: in your diary or in mine?


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

In my fantasy Hillary announced she would run as an Independent.

In reality she did what she believed is in the best interests of the Democratic party. I don't agree, but I don't agree with her on everything. I think capitulation leaves women twisting in the wind.

I am interested in the questions on the DNC survey you received.  I tried to Google it and find one online, but I haven't been sucessful.

I hope you'll be able to share the questions here.


"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony
by feelfree on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:32:17 PM EST

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

You think Hillary, having lost the primary should run as an independent.  If Obama had lost the primary, how would you have felt if he had lost an independent run while Hillary was trying to take back the White House?

Practically speaking, Hillary would not have a chance of being successfull running as an independent as her appeal would come almost entirely from parts of the democratic base, without winning over any republicans, and with few independents.  It wouldn't be a big enough tent to win an election, but it would definitely be sufficient to fragment the democratic vote in key states and guarantee a republican victory.  


Go back to Hussein Texas
by gobacktotexas on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:48:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

You must have missed the word fantasy.


"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony
by feelfree on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:02:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and what happened (none / 0)

when Edwards "capitulated" did it leave white men twisted in the wind?

What about Richardson...those Hispanics still twisting?

She did exactly what white men in her position would do...accept a loss and work for the winner.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:05:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and what happened (none / 0)

This is a false argument because neither of those scenarios happened.

I don't recall either of those groups being heavily invested in either of those candidates.

Neither of those groups was betrayed by the DNC when democratic women sought their support in attacking sexism during the primary.


"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony
by feelfree on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

your last sentence (none / 0)

proves you are delusional, sorry.

Every Democratic Woman isn't screaming sexism. In fact, most Democratic women have moved on.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:30:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: your last sentence (none / 0)

No it proves that the dismissal of concerns of democratic women by the DNC will lead to some not supporting the Democratic party in November.

That's all.


"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony
by feelfree on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:42:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The only concern for Democratic women (none / 0)

is the election of a woman?


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:41:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and what happened (none / 0)

Wait... I am lef twisted in the wind!


by french imp on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:25:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (none / 0)

please see my new diary here:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/6/7/17292 4/0127
Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nobody cares about your damn diary (none / 0)


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of no Return (2.00 / 2)

Engels, you've outdone yourself!  If you keep this up, I could probably write an "Engels" script that could predict what you'll write, in advance of you writing it, based on the news of the day.

I wonder how accurate it could be?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:34:57 PM EST