One Helluva Fight!!! [Update]

It was a great fight:

I understand something today that I didn't last week. I am a Democrat. And I am going to fight to make this party better because I think the DNC showed unconscionable bias towards one candidate for President, and not the other.

And while I am on that subject--  Donna Brazille can kiss my white ass from now until November and it will not undo the harm she spewed as a pundit on CNN.

But I am not writing to rehash old wrongs. I am writing to say that although I know Hillary got screwed, here's Paul Krugman on the subject I will not ever support, endorse or in any way aid the election of John McCain. Because he is one nasty dude.

Now he wants to capitalize on the understandable ire women are feeling towards the Party. Ok. It's true. We are mad. But that doesn't make McCain the solution. Hillary has said over and over that he is a nice guy with all the wrong positions who would be a disaster for us. I Agree. From healthcare to the environment, from wire tapping citizens to the war in Iraq, from women's rights to a woman's right to choose, from gay rights to human rights, this guy is not on the side of the angels. The angles, maybe. But definitely not the angels.

I am still staggering from the narrow defeat of Hillary Clinton, but I am not stupid. And I do know where my bread is buttered. It is as a Democrat. There is a lot of post mortems and second guessing going on and I want to join anglachel-- http://www.anglachelg.blogspot.com/
 when she writes that she doesn't care if Michelle Obama did say whitey this and whitey that. Hell. I have said it, myself. I don't have any quarrel with the term  whitey. Rev. Wright is a different story because he is like a professional hater. Black liberation theology notwithstanding. And using racism to tar and feather white voters and gin up the AA vote is emphatically not ok with me.  

But the campaign is Over. It is time to move on. I am moving on and this is my first step.

I also want to say that this is a great article on Hillary's contribution to our political discourse called Seven Ways Hillary Changed Our Politics:  It is an excellent piece and I couldn't agree more.  http://www.prospect.org/

So here's to Hillary Clinton-- the first woman to win nearly 18 million votes in a Democratic Party primary--and to her  concession speech and a united Democratic Party.

It was one hulluva goddamn fight!

PS--If you flame me in any way, your balls are gonna fall off and you are going to hell...

[update on the 'she's no good thread'in the comments: my reference to the Civil War is a nod to the bruised and deeply painful feelings held by both sides after the Civil War. The same could be said of this campaign. There is a serious effort underway to exploit those feelings and get Hillary supporters to back McCain. I believe, if this were to get off the ground, it would seriously derail the Democratic nominee. Anyone who wants to hold on to their bruised ego and sense of outrage in the face of this effort to hijack a huge block of democratic voters is welcome to do so. But you, my friend, are the one who is putting your ego before the best interests of the party. And just to set the record straight. I did not lie. I did not smear and I still think Obama's assertion of a relative at Aushwitz was [to me] amazingly stupid as it was so easily disproved. He can get the jewish vote without having an uncle [or whoever] liberate a death camp. I was outraged at the time. But I am not now. Obama fibbed stuff just like she did about Bosnia. Let's move on, shall we. Or not--you decide. But I do have to say that those who persist in slapping down the olive branch are suspicious to me. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by hanging onto past hurts. And believe me there are a ton--on both sides. Lin]



Display:


Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 6)

I'm glad to hear you're not crossing over, linfar.


by jdusek on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:39:41 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 29)

Nope. Never


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:46:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 7)

I was pulling for ya Linfar, hoping you wouldn't be duped into supporting the wrong side come november.  I appreciate your ardent support, and I hope you can use some of that support, if not for Clinton, for her causes that in many ways live on in the Obama campaign.

Other Clinton "supporters" have crossed over but I didn't think you'd be one of them.

I call them "supporters" because they cannot claim to be real Clinton supporters.  By advocating all the McCain policies they show that it was never about Clinton or what great causes she advocates as a Democrat.  These people are  anti-Obama, and quite frankly anti-Democrat.  Some, no doubt, were never Democrats in the first place and were just here to cause trouble.

For the record I didn't thnk you were (or for that matter Alegre) but just hardcore supporters that in some cases stretched (IMO) a little too far to defend your preferred candidate.

But Clinton isn't done yet, she may not be the Democratic Nominee for 2008, but she has many years of great legislating and perhaps future runs at the presidency in her.  I commend her on this campaign, and you for supporting her.  This was a hard fought battle and one that made the candidates and the party stronger.

Having said all this, and keeping in mind the long battle Democrats have in the coming months I would just like to add:

Welcome back Linfar.


by Why Not on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 3)

thanks Why Not. I do think if the women thinking they may support McCain would look at this record they would stop. And I fully expect Hill will really put the kabosh on this idea tomorrow. She is about the issues, all the time and always. McCain is such a Bad, bad idea.


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:49:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice update (1.00 / 1)

lol.

How the hell do you sleep knowing how badly you have, and are, smearing a strong, intelligent, successful woman?

You call yourself a feminist yet you are playing these sick underhanded misogynistic republican games.

You are helping do to a democratic woman what the GOP have tried to do to EVERY SINGLE one of our Nominee's wives.

Is Michelle Obama not someone our daughters should look up to?


by Is This Snark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:00:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great reading, Linfar (none / 0)

Glad atleast you haven't been tossed out!
Next week, I'll be independent.
by layer cake on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 09:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice update (2.00 / 1)

Um, this isn't about linfar or Alegre or Texasdarlin', oh but wait - YOUR signature says exactly what you are fishing for here.

I, frankly, have some disdain for linfar even now but it don't matter now it don't matter one wee bit it is a fleck of feeling, a leftover of a leftover.

Linfar, aim those cannons at McCain and get on with it.


I will wear my heart upon my sleeve For daws to peck at
by Iago on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 09:15:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Trojan Horse Diary (1.00 / 1)

Linfar couldn't help but insert these in her Trojan Horse diary:

DNC showed unconscionable bias
Donna Brazille can kiss my white ass
Michelle Obama and rumored whitey comment
Rev. Wright
Obama's assertion of a relative at Aushwitz
Obama fibbed stuff (meaning he is a liar)


by ImpeachBushCheney on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 10:46:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 4)

It was great to read this. Honestly, this past week at MyDD has made me happier than I've been in quite a while regarding politics.

It's like a fractured family coming back together--sure, some members still have bruised feelings, others are still wary--but in the end, it's family that binds us.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:35:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (none / 0)

Yeah, a wonderful family in which one member calls out the other as a racist, and gladly exploits demeaning, sexist talk.

That kind of great family.


by frankly0 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 12:09:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Very cool (2.00 / 1)

And let me just say as an Obama supporter that I agree we need to revise the primary system so this sort of contraversy does not happen again (or at least is much less likely).  I won't claim to know what the answer is, but I hope we all as Democrats can come together and work on the solution from positions of mutual respect, even when we disagree about how things went down and how we might fix things.

Peace


by protothad on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:52:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Props, linfar! (2.00 / 1)

The diary is wonderful, thank you! I wish I could give you a million mojos for it!


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 10:42:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Props, linfar! (2.00 / 2)

Thanks sricki. I'm glad we ae on the same side.


by linfar on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:52:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I am! (none / 0)


by CoyoteCreek on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 12:08:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 1)

Hey, I always knew I can trust you linfar!
Rec'd!
Grumpy, reluctant, sore-losing, unhappy, irritable Hillary supporter for Barack Obama 2008
by DemAC on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:29:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 11)

Three Cheers For Linfar!  I totally didn't see this coming.  I really didn't.

Although we have definitely disagreed in the past and will certainly disagree in the future, I am glad you are on our side and you didn't go Lieberman on us.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:40:13 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 13)

Lieberman is a turd. Has been for awhile. Obama is pissed now because he supported  Lieberman against Lamont.


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:48:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 1)

Man I would be too if I stuck my neck out like that and got my support thrown in my face.  I am pretty sure Obama had a "screw me once, shame on you...not gonna fool me twice" talk with him.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:07:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You just can't help yourself can you (1.33 / 3)

I have to assume someone that pays as close attention as you do knows that isn't true.

Lamont even said as much when he unequivocally endorsed Obama.

People here might be being nice because they hope to see a better linfar return, but there is no better linfar. The things you have said come from a very dark place deep inside of you.


by Is This Snark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:07:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You just can't help yourself can you (none / 0)

Snarky--are you Bob Johnson?? Your vitriol is bottomless and rather amazing. People were amazed when Lamont endorsed Obama because Obama did support Lieberman. Look it up!!


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't have to look it up. (1.00 / 1)

You made the claim even though you KNOW it is false.

(AP) Democratic Sen. Barack Obama, a vocal defender of Sen. Joe Lieberman earlier this year, is urging Connecticut voters to rally behind his rival, Ned Lamont.

The Illinois senator and potential 2008 presidential candidate sent an e-mail message Thursday praising Lamont.

"Ned Lamont has waged an impressive grass-roots campaign to give the people of Connecticut a choice in the November Senate election," Obama wrote. "Please join me in supporting Ned Lamont with your hard work on-the-ground in these closing weeks of the campaign."


by Is This Snark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:07:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You just can't help yourself can you (2.00 / 2)

Obama did endorse Lieberman in the primary. It was one of the earliest instances where I remember being really angry with Obama.

He later endorsed Lamont in the general.

Look, I understand your mistrust. No one's saying that we must all instantly brainwash ourselves, hold hands and pretend nothing untoward ever happened here these past few months. There were plenty of arguments, insults, smears and trolling (on both sides).

We were begging for unity during these last few months. Now that people are coming back into the fold, we're going to spurn them? I don't need linfar to make some grand apology. I don't care about past diaries or anything else. As far as I'm concerned, the slate is clean. I just want all of us here to be united against McCain.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:02:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They are still happening. (1.00 / 1)

That's the problem.

She isn't stopping.

I am not about to tell Candiangirl to fly a kite or repent. But I did give her a hard time, at the time she was making snide remarks.

There are two levels here. Linfar and the hillis44 NQ crowd have engendered a lot of hate and tried to use it to defeat a democrat.

That isn't acceptable in the democratic party, and it should be on democratic websites.


by Is This Snark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They are still happening. (2.00 / 2)

I'm not sure if you're suggesting this diary is a bait-and-switch (i.e., "We should support the Democrat even if his wife hates whitey.") I really don't read it that way at all. I don't expect linfar to lose all vestiges of her former anti-Obama stance in the course of one diary. Of course there will be some rough edges that will hopefully be smoothed as we move toward November.

For that matter, I've also seen fellow Obama supporters write unity diaries that included awkward statements they probably didn't even realize could cause offense to Hillary supporters. It happens. We're all extremely attuned to slights against our candidate, and it's easy to overlook the big picture because of it.

And besides, what are you going to accomplish? You're going to force linfar to leave? And if she doesn't, then what? C'mon...no one's in the mood anymore for all the negativity.

Let Larry Johnson and the hillaris44 crew stew in their own anger. But as far as the people who post here, we need to move on already.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:31:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok (1.00 / 1)

I don't want her gone.

I want actions to have consequences.

Her bread is buttered as a democrat she says. Well this democrat says she should get much less butter, and none until she apologizes.

If you can point me to Obama bloggers you think need a scolding for their primary behavior I'd love to have a look.

Here's the deal. :)

If linfar writes a passionate diary in defense of Michelle Obama all is forgiven on my end.


by Is This Snark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 09:03:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ok (none / 0)

What consequences, exactly, do you think are appropriate for a poster who has vigorously supported an excellent Democratic candidate? If it's all right with the site's mods, you should have no problem with it either.  

And accusing her of being a "traitor to the Democrats" or whatever -- a ridiculous charge on the face of it -- is exactly the sort of behavior likely to encourage Clinton supporters to give Obama a pass.

If you truly supported your candidate, you would welcome back Linfar with open arms and cheer on her decision, instead of demanding she write a letter of apology to Michelle Obama just to make you happier before you would oh-so-graciously deign to allow her to vote Democrat.  Your happiness is irrelevent -- you're already voting for Obama (I assume. Unless you're a clever Rethug troll.)  Linfar's happiness, on the other hand, means another vote for Obama.

But by all means, if you want Obama to lose, you just keep nursing your snit instead of sensibly cheering Obama gaining another vote.  

Seriously, what is it you are after? "If Linfar won't write a letter lauding Michelle Obama, I don't think she should be allowed to vote Democrat!"? That's so backward and counterproductive I can hardly believe it. (Although, seeing all the mindless opposition to Clinton as Obama's VP, I'm finding it easier and easier to believe this kind of atrocious behavior.)

Incidentally, while I'm not voting for McCain, I'm still on the fence about Obama. I've voted for the Democrat in every presidential election since I turned 18. This may well be the first year I deliberately stay home -- or write in Hillary.


by Michigoose on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 12:38:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ok (none / 0)

Agreed (well, with everything but the last four sentences).

But for what it's worth, opposition to Hillary for VP isn't mindless. Many (or even most) of us against it feel that way not for personal reasons, but because it contradicts Obama's message. If you want to bill yourself as an outsider/change candidate, then you need to select someone who matches that message. It's not that we hate Hillary, or that the Clinton presidency sucked. It's just that we also want some different faces in a Democratic administration. (And yes, then there also those who just think Hillary is teh devil!!!1!!)

I'm not sure if that explains things any better or just makes it worse. But whether Hillary should be VP is a completely different issue than how we welcome angered Clinton supporters back into the fold.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:34:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ok (none / 0)

Obama's not going to get the chance to change anything if he doesn't get elected. It's as simple as that.

And I find this "Hillary isn't for change!" attitude to be puzzling. She's definitely for changes in health care, environment, and tons of other issues liberals care about. She and Obama are almost identical on policy. What "change" is he for that she is against?


by Michigoose on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:54:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey Lin, can I still be mad at you (2.00 / 1)

Hey Lin, can I still be mad at you, but at the same time be impressed at your diary?

Because that's the case. Hard feelings run deep.

But as I've said before, no matter who won the nomination I am voting (D) up and down the ballot in November.

And that surely included Hillary. Despite my anger at some of her supporters(and even her sometimes), I can respect her passion and passionate supporters. I've never seen a candidate as fierce and dedicated.

That's the best I can do right now.  :-P


by DaveDial on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:59:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey Lin, can I still be mad at you (2.00 / 1)

DaveDial, Sounds good to me. Healing takes time and mostly requires we all stop picking at the scabs.


by linfar on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:49:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually I did (2.00 / 4)

her post on a real issue that matters, Wolves, showed that she cares about the country.  Things can get heated in a primary battle and people can say things that are over the line (I know that I have), but when the chips are down people make smart decisions, this is why I know alegre also won't be jumping to John McCain's camp because it was about the issues for her too.

To linfar:  TomWatson had a good post up on his blog  (I've been a fan of his since around April).

One last word, tipped and recced.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:54:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually I did (2.00 / 4)

I didn't see this coming, but the post about wolves really changed my mind about linfar. It was a great post and so is this one.

The primary season was way too long and really sucked. But, it's finally, finally over.


by pomology on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:57:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

YES (2.00 / 2)

That was a great post. My sentiments exactly.


by 79blondini on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: YES (1.00 / 1)

I'll even bet her next post won't mention Rev. Wright.


by ImpeachBushCheney on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think you're right on Alegre (2.00 / 1)

and I said something similar earlier. In her time and words though. I just don't see her fighting for McCain's issues.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:05:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually I did (2.00 / 3)

Oh for certain, alegre will be back to fight with us.  I heard her on that Clinton blogger conference call and if nothing else, there is NO QUESTION she holds the highest admiration for Hillary.

alegre will march with Hillary and US.


by neonplaque on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually I did (2.00 / 2)

Thanks SG. I appreciate your efforts to remain fair and balanced albeit partisan.


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:14:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It is tough to remain non-partisan (2.00 / 1)

in these kinds of races.  I honestly don't know how those who were managed it.  

I will be making an apology post later this evening for my lapses in judgment (brought on my a poll in a diary where I apologize for bring shame to myDD as I was cited on third party watch).

But Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner had it right in his sentiments correct about how we've been calling for unity.  There are things on both sides that will take time to heal and I hope to help heal the wounds (I know there are some) I've caused with my huge apology diary later tonight.  In your honor I am increasing my donations I'll be making tomorrow a little further and also giving to what you suggested to GreenHills (Defenders of Wildlife).  It won't be much as I am a med student and thus not rich yet, but it will help.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 6)

Welcome to the dark side, we have cookies!!


Obama 2008!
by lollydee on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:43:14 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 3)

With sprinkles??


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:49:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 1)

I just got my nutgrinder attachment for my kitchen-aid stand mixer if you want some coconut almond ones!

Now I just want the sausage maker attachment


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 3)

Rainbow!!!!!  :D


Obama 2008!
by lollydee on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Will you apologize (1.00 / 17)

for the smears and lies?

Why do you insist on validating the whitey smear still?

Do I care if you vote for McCain? Ha!

You have been in part responsible for the irrational hate, and lobotomized ignorance coming from hillary supporters. Are you prepared to own up to it and apologize? Work to undo some of that damage?

Or are you expecting to come back for more butter for that bread hoping we all forget what a horrible person you had become when you thought your interests necessitated it.


by Is This Snark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:45:04 PM EST

Re: Will you apologize (2.00 / 7)

Not helpful.


by GreenHills on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will you apologize (none / 0)

Pretty sad when conservatives are more honorable than the so-called progressives here:

http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/p ost/?q=Mzc3ZWNhNThmM2JhMzliZDUxMWNmMmU5M 2ZiNmM1YTY=


by Bush Bites on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:04:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will you apologize (2.00 / 13)

The primary campaign is over doofus--just like the Civil War. Everyone has to let go a little and get on board the Democratic Party wagon. If you can't see the importance of uniting over fighting--I think you are more elephanbt than donkey


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:51:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will you apologize (none / 0)

How perfectly silly to compare this primary to the Civil War. And how perfectly linfar to miss the fact there's a significant block of the population still resentful about and motivated by the War of Northern Aggression.


by Mobar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:41:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will you apologize (none / 0)

Really?



by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:42:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will you apologize (none / 0)

"War of Northern Aggression?"


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 10:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will you apologize (none / 0)

Sigh.  Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them.  Over and over again.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 11:18:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will you apologize (none / 0)

Yes, I forgot the scare quotes and that's almost enough to understand why a person who knows linfar's post history and reads my comment completely fails to grasp the point.


by Mobar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 11:51:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will you apologize (2.00 / 5)

You                              The Rest Of Us
 .                                     ....

Let's move past it.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will you apologize (2.00 / 4)

I uprated several of your comments here because I think you're voicing a valid opinion that can be backed up with references to linfar's infamous posts. Yes, you are describing her in unflattering terms. But I don't think you're doing it to be insulting, but rather because you think it is an important point to make.

And I mostly agree with your point. I don't know how one can discuss whether a poster who trafficks in lies and smears should be embraced because she's indicated she's going to direct her firepower in another direction, without noting that she's trafficked in lies and smears.

I can understand looking past alegre's more agitated moments, but linfar has long struck me as far less sincere and far more cynical in her advocacy. I don't want her arguing on my side, because I find her arguments are frequently (and, I suspect, intentionally) dishonest. I'm not going to join a movement to chase her off, but I admit I was sickened by some of the people applauding her.

I wasn't going to write any of this, but I saw others HR'd you and pulled the "not helpful" line on you and I wanted you to know that I value your perspective and think it's a fair subject for discussion. Is it helpful to have dishonest compatriots? Should we encourage their voices? Is it reasonable to assume that linfar won't post lies and baseless smears of McCain? Is it ok to be excited at the prospect that she will?


by Mobar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:30:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will you apologize (2.00 / 3)

I agree with the basic principle of your post here.  I don't want people posting baseless lies or smearing any candidate (even McCain) especially in the name of our candidate.

Having said that, I think their were/are mitigating circumstances in this situation.  Based upon some of the exposition that Linfar has posted on this site I know there is a deeper reason for the extreme advocacy we saw.  Her long lasting connection to feminism and to the candidate that she idolizes may have clouded her judgment in the pursuit of advocating her candidate of choice.

I too was disturbed by this type of advocacy.  The important thing to remember is that sometimes it is hard to come out of this sort of situation.  The first step is going back to a place from which to build.  Both Linfar and Clinton will have to come to terms with things they have said this primary season.  But to drive them away doesn't accomplish anything.  Both Linfar and Clinton have declared their wish to continue fighting for the causes that they believe in albeit though Obama's candidacy.  I think we can afford them some room to decide what to do about their previous statements.  In the end they will have to answer to themselves on this.

It is not easy to forgive, and it is not easy to come back from a difficult place like this.  But who said this was about doing things that are easy.  This is what healing the party and the nation is about.  We cannot throw out the baby with the bathwater, and we cannot drive away everyone that ever disagreed with us vehemently or we would be in danger of being alone.


by Why Not on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Will you apologize (2.00 / 2)

Ditto, and the same reason I uprated him.  I remember all too vividly the type of garbage that linfar was trafficking in for the last few months.  It was enough to make the swiftboaters blush.  I won't try to chase her from this site, but nor will I let troll-ratings of one who points these facts out go unanswered.


by XoFalconXo on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:19:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agree to uprate (2.00 / 1)

People need to openly discuss how they feel.


Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity
by NeciVelez on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 10:03:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The rules say you may be hide rated, (2.00 / 0)

for attacking a fellow MyDD'er. A hand has been held out here and you spit in it. She did not attack you here. C'mon.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The rules say you may be hide rated, (none / 0)

You are incorrect. Linfar has attacked me repeatedly through her arguments, both in the the particulars of my life and the particulars of my beliefs. I consider her style of argumentation to be a cancer on the public discourse. For me, this isn't about Clinton vs. Obama. I consider her a budding Ann Coulter of the left. And because I value a higher level of discourse, I can't encourage her voice.


by Mobar on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 12:00:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the light dawns... (2.00 / 1)


by Bee on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:45:22 PM EST

Re: the light dawns... (2.00 / 6)

No. Just following my candidate's lead into party unity.


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the light dawns... (2.00 / 4)

Thank you.

And she is a fine leader within our party.


by neonplaque on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:05:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 4)

This is very reasonable.

I can understand your frustration in your believing that Hillary was treated unfairly.

But all along I've said that no true supporter of Hillary or Barack could ever cross over and vote for John McCain. He doesn't support the values that Hillary and Barack support that made them such a great (and therefore competitive) pair of candidates.


by pomology on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:48:57 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 5)

Exactly. MCain is a really bad choice.


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:52:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 1)

Not to be argumentative, but . . . Could Hillary have accomplished what she has in this primary seasons if she were in the Republican party? If not (I think not), why would a Hillary supporter want to be there?


by Christy1947 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 9)

For what it's worth, though I think the outcome basically just, I want to point out that there are many Obama supporters that agree with Clinton supporters that the primary campaign revealed grievous flaws in the system and will energetically support reform in the party, both with regard to personnel and mechanisms.  This has to be done thoughtfully and passionately, the minute the GE comes to a close.  I hope Obama plays a role in this initiative.  Much type has been circulated on how he benefited from the problems in the system.  I think his strategy worked, and I wish his strategy had been tailored just as effectively to a better system.  As a MI voter, I have already pledged to support democratic replacements for Granholm and Levin.  And I am more than willing to support a reassessment of caucuses and their role in the process.  Let's get Obama elected and then turn our attentions to improving the apparatus of the democratic party.  And I also hope that this campaign can serve as a catalyst for confronting the institutional misogyny and sexism we saw in this primary from the media and from individuals.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:50:20 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 2)

srummerson, what a thoughtful and wonderful comment. I think we will have a better party after we get those changes done. May I never see another dem caucus as long as I live :)


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:27:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 1)

Caucuses are only bad if you fail to show up at them and fail to understand how they work. A form of choice absolutely at the local level. In many places, where people are dispersed or few, they can work wonderfully, which is why some places like them and use them. Americans are historically hard to force into any one way of doing things.


by Christy1947 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:20:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 1)

That's why I was in favor of MI and FL moving up their primaries...someone needed to force the issue, because the candidates themselves would commit political suicide if they dared challenge New Hampshire's and Iowa's monopoly.

For all the misery it caused us, does anyone think that this year's debacle won't greatly affect  the primary-scheduling process in future elections?


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:40:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 2)

PS--If you flame me in any way, your balls are gonna fall off and you are going to hell...

After this, you're damn right. GodDAMN, it makes me happy to see such passionate and effective adversaries become allies.
If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:50:58 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (none / 0)

McCain is a really terrible, terrible candidate. So we are going to be allies for awhile :)


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:28:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (none / 0)

I never thought the day would come but I recommended your diary today without hesitation, it is really much easier to forgive the slights than I had ever thought possible, especially in the face of a common enemy.  Former adversaries can make for strong allies.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (none / 0)

After this, you're damn right. GodDAMN, it makes me happy to see such passionate and effective adversaries become allies.

Considering how passionate and motivated the supporters of both Obama and Clinton are, how strong a campaign both candidates ran... can you just imagine the fight we will take to McCain now that we are uniting?  He won't know what hit him!

>:)


by protothad on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:39:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 4)

Thanks for your announcement, Linfar.  In honor of you, I'll donate $25 this weekend either to the Clinton campaign or to a campaign/organization of your choice if you would prefer that route.

I'm sorry that you're hurting and I hope you find another race to be passionate about this year.


by GreenHills on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:51:07 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 5)

I think Hill is going to be fine. Please donate to Defenders of Wildlife for the wolves, ok?


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:29:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (none / 0)

I'll do that with pleasure.  


by GreenHills on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:07:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kick ass. I'm in too. (none / 0)

Not tough for me to do, since I am already an animal loving tree huggin hippie.  Consider my donation sent.  :)


by protothad on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:42:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 7)

I'm tired with fighting with people whom I agree with on 90% of stuff. How about we work together on making sure there's never a desk sign that says "President McCain".


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:53:44 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 2)

Absolutely, travis. Just the thought gives me the shivers.


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:29:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 2)

I'm glad to see your pragmatism.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:54:28 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (none / 0)

Hold on I'm getting up off the floor.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:55:07 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 4)

Ok, I'm up. Like or not here's a big hug!


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:55:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm impressed. (none / 0)

Have some Kool-Aide!


We want to see Ivana [Trump] because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture. - Sarah Palin
by spacemanspiff on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:56:02 PM EST

I am moving on and this is my first step. (none / 0)

a good second step might be to not keep rehashing the same issues over again. And to not spread baseless rumors. There is ZERO evidence Michelle Obama ever said whitey... so why talk about it as it if it happened?


by Tatan on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:56:58 PM EST

I should say (2.00 / 1)

otherwise... good on you, Linfar. Diary rec'd.


by Tatan on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:58:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why is that so hard to believe? (1.25 / 4)

I have said it my friends have said it. She said it.

But the Reverend Wright did not sink Obama's candidacy and neither will this tape. The only thing that will sink it is Obama himself, and he will not do that.


by catfish2 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:15:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is that so hard to believe? (2.00 / 1)

"this tape" doesn't exist.


by Tatan on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:22:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

see what I mean? (1.00 / 0)

unrepentant bullshitters.


by Is This Snark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:28:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

unless you can provide undisputed EVIDENCE (none / 0)

that she said that, stop pushing and shilling this shit.  


by shirley temple on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:20:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am moving on and this is my first step. (2.00 / 2)

Yeah - Linfar, welcome to the dark side and all that, but we've got some rules on the dark side: Like, no repeating unsubstantiated smaears as if they are fact.

Criticism: Fine. Pretending that there's any evidence to noquarter smears when none exists: Not okay.

These are as bad as the 1992 smears imputing pictures of Hillary Clinton burning an American flag. It would make you angry if other Democrats repeated those baseless smears, right? Because I'd be pissed.


The primaries are over!
Focus on McCain
by really not a troll on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:21:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am moving on and this is my first step. (none / 0)

If it was real, it would be on YouTube by now. Every darned other thing is.


by Christy1947 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:22:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am moving on and this is my first step. (none / 0)

It's pretty sad when conservatives are more honorable than the so-called progressives here.

http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/p ost/?q=Mzc3ZWNhNThmM2JhMzliZDUxMWNmMmU5M 2ZiNmM1YTY=


by Bush Bites on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:01:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I just want you to know (2.00 / 2)

that tommorow (only then because I will have cleared my bills for the month) I will be donating to Hillary Clinton so she will have a better political future.  She can do a lot of good but I want her not to focus on fundraising but on bringing up issues that matter.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:58:46 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 8)

I'll repeat what I said when bobswern posted his diary on this same topic - as Democrats, we've all been on the same bus this whole time, just in different seats.

The good news is, there's a lot of room here on the Obama side of the aisle. Happy to have you fighting alongside us.

(And I'm especially pleased, I must say, that you've acknowledged that it was a "narrow defeat," because that's exactly what it was. In any other year, against any other opponent, under any other circumstances, I'd now be alongside you on the Clinton aisle, working like hell to get her in the White House and make sure there's never a President McCain. It was indeed one helluva fight, and I hope that in the final analysis, we'll all be better off for it.)


Ceci n'est pas une <<snark>>
by ipsos on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:02:09 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (none / 0)

thank you you ipsos. And it would be nice to think when enough time has passed that we wil all be better for it.


by linfar on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:55:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

When is an apology not an apology? (2.00 / 1)

When it includes slander like this...

"if Michelle Obama did say whitey this and whitey that. Hell. I have said it, myself. I don't have any quarrel with the term  whitey. Rev. Wright is a different story because he is like a professional hater. Black liberation theology notwithstanding. And using racism to tar and feather white voters and gin up the AA vote is emphatically not ok with me. "

While I applaud your effort to be reasonable, your effort thus far is lacking.


Bush murders soldiers for profit. McCain wants to wet his beak.
by awobbly on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:05:02 PM EST

Re: When is an apology not an apology? (none / 0)

Give her time.  Time.  

She wants to follow her candidate's lead and she wants to crush McCain in November.  That's a good start.


by neonplaque on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When is an apology not an apology? (none / 0)

Well, you're doing a FINE job of encouraging Linfar's conversion.  

What's wrong with you folks who can't even just be happy that Linfar's voting for Obama, but must instead attack her diary? Do you think you're helping Obama?

You're NOT. Knock it off.


by Michigoose on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 12:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When is an apology not an apology? (none / 0)

I honestly would rather lose the presidency than win with people that push lies and racial divisiveness as Linfar and Co. did for MONTHS. That said, I'm hoping we win. But don't expect many people to embrace Linfar, Alegre, and others who STILL frequent NoQuarter and Hillaryis44.
by shalca on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When is an apology not an apology? (1.00 / 1)

I honestly would rather lose the presidency than win with people that push lies and racial divisiveness

I don't like Obama's lies and race-baiting tactics either, but I'm still willing to consider voting for him. I certainly won't be voting for McCain, even though I find him personally honorable, admirable, and competent (for the most part. He's gotta get that Sunni/Shia thing sorted out right quick, though!) I even have genuine liking for the guy.  But I can't support his policies. No way.

Anyway, if you require a "purity test" of candidates to earn your vote...you deserve to have your candidate lose the election, and lose it big.  There's no such thing as a "unsullied" politician.

Point being, I don't make my vote based on which candidate I think is the better human being; I vote for the one I think will do the best job at getting action going on the issues I care about. Quite a few successful Presidents have been dickheads. It's not a  disqualification for high office in the US. In fact, I'd say a candidate who doesn't have some dickishness in him or her is never going to be an effective politician. It's just not that sort of a job. A guy who cleans sewers for a living isn't going to come after a hard day's work smelling of fresh flowers. It's just not going to happen.


by Michigoose on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:50:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You miss my point entirely. . . (none / 0)

I'm not talking about Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama, two people I hold in high regard, even if I disagree with certain campaign tactics. I'm talking about Linfar and Co. There is a difference. Had Hillary won the nomination, I would have voted for her, but it would disgust me that some of my fellow democrats were pushing blatant lies, racist comments, etc. for months in "advocating" for their candidate. I would rather they weren't in the party. This is not about the candidates, this is about a few very vocal "supporters."
by shalca on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:13:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You miss my point entirely. . . (1.00 / 1)

Hm, I got your target wrong, but the point still stands. Obama needs the votes of Hillary supporters. Even the ones you find personally unpleasant. What exactly are you proposing -- a purity test for voters now? Only "nice" people are allowed to vote because otherwise they'll taint Obama with their evil?

If you are serious about wanting Obama in the White House, you need to realize that people like Linfar may very well be the key to ensuring that outcome. She's a fervent Hillary Clinton supporter who is nevertheless going to vote for your candidate because she is a principled Democrat. And yet you would throw away her vote because you don't like her?

Some of Obama's supporters are vicious, disgusting sexist pigs. Some of Clinton's supporters are racist bastards.   Both are much worse people than Linfar could ever be. What's your plan for keeping them out of the voting booths? And do you think Obama will thank you for it if you succeed?

You need to seriously think about what's more important: Your personal dislike of Linfar, or your desire to see Obama become President. It's possible Obama may win without any of Hillary's supporters, but it's also quite possible he may lose. With Hillary's supporters on board he will definitely win. Why take chances?

So I would suggest you hold your nose and stop being so self-righteous. Even "evil" people are allowed to vote (unless they've been caught and convicted), and Linfar's not evil.  Besides, unless you're a mind reader, I don't see how you're going to keep all the "bad" people from voting.

Focus on what's important: Getting Obama in the White House.


by Michigoose on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:39:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You miss my point entirely. . . (none / 0)

I haven't seen anyone suggest they don't want linfar's vote. I think you've missed the essence of this diary. It's not about linfar's vote, it's about linfar's need for admiration and applause. She's not stupid, she knows that continuing to campaign for Hillary wouldn't get her much so she's changed her tactic. Some are willing to reward her for it. Others, not so much.

The criticism of this diary that I've read has been very much about this particular diarist and her history of dishonest advocacy. It's absurd to equate criticism of linfar with criticism of all Clinton supporters.


by Mobar on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:08:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You miss my point entirely. . . (none / 0)

I don't think it should matter to real Obama supporters WHY linfar changed her mind, only that she did so.

Why do you care if she changed her vote to get more attention or to be "on the side of the winner"? I don't think either of those is true, but if we accept the postulate that they are -- so what? A vote's a vote, my feeling is you should be glad she's willing to support Obama instead of running off to join the PUMAs.  

A fair number of Obama supporters here seem tied up in the idea that only "ideologically pure" or "nice" people can vote for Obama. But the ballots are secret. They all count equally, whether they come for a five year Obama loyalist or a last minute attention seeking convert.  

A vote's a vote.


by Michigoose on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:58:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank You (2.00 / 1)

Thank you, Linfar, and I hope Hillary's campaign will lead a stream of powerful women into this process.  I think it has changed the way all of us look at who can be president from cliche (it's America, anyone can blah blah) to reality.  This must have been a tough diary to write and it is a good one to read.


by mady on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:05:17 PM EST

Re: Thank You (none / 0)

Thanks mady.


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:09:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Many great thanks linfar (2.00 / 1)

This election is critical and your diary shows that you understand that. We all stand together for this is one of few remaining chances to correct our course in this country. Kudos.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:09:07 PM EST

Re: Many great thanks linfar (none / 0)

Thanks lizard. this election is just way to important...


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:09:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you, linfar (2.00 / 2)

I've voted for Hillary twice for Senate, ended up with Obama in this process (didn't start with him), would have voted for Hillary had she won, and want more than anything to elect a Democrat, just like you do.

Thank you for this diary.


by JoeW on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:11:45 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 1)

linfar, good on you. I know this can't be easy for you, but I'm glad to know that your on the Dem.s side. And please ignore all the trolls who want to keep bringing up the past.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:14:04 PM EST

Re: One Helluva Fight!!! (2.00 / 1)

thanks ven--I have a lot of practice ignoring the trolls :) What a bunch of little gnomes...


by linfar on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:25:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yea (1.00 / 1)

Like there is no way you could owe anyone an apology.

Everyone you ever offended and vilified was a troll that deserved it.


by Is This Snark on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:30:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yea (none / 0)

I don't want her to apologize. I want her to be truthful. I'm no more excited to watch her dishonestly attack McCain than I was to watch her dishonestly attack Obama. It all muddies the discourse.


by