Post-Election Open Thread

OK, who else is going to miss our Tuesday nights together? Can't believe they're done and can't believe we finally have a nominee. Quite a note to go out on. Barack's speech tonight was phenomenal. Watch it below:

And Hillary's speech was excellent as well.

And didn't some other guy speak tonight too?

Consider this an open thread to look back on the journey of this primary process and ahead to the impending Obama/McCain match-up. History was made tonight. Soak it in and tell us what's on your mind...

Update [2008-6-4 3:34:59 by Todd Beeton]:Oh and by the way, Barack Obama will be addressing the SEIU convention Wednesday at 10:50am Eastern. If you're up check back here for the live stream of what is essentially his first post-primary speech as the nominee.



Display:


Re: Post-Election Open Thread (2.00 / 2)

Come to think of it GeorgeP owes me fifty bucks and Dem Dem aka Holden Caulfield a case of cold Coors Classic and a t-shirt.  Shucks.  Where are they now that we need them?

It's been an interesting sixteen months.  Hey, thanks MyDD for being my preferred platform for fun and frustration.  All is forgiven, it's been an incredible honk.

And to all the long-suffering, outnumbered, well informed and tolerant Obama supporters, I can't thank you enough for joining me in this unlikely quest.  

Si se puede!


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 03:35:56 AM EST

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (2.00 / 2)

It's only halftime. Time to take our country back.


John McCain defends Bush's Iraq strategy.
by recusancy on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 03:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (2.00 / 1)

All on the same page there.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:34:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

coors? (2.00 / 1)

You're a worldly man, Shaun... why did you not hold out for something more?

Thanks for holding the fort hereabouts and, regardless of affiliation, being an informed and intelligent diarist.


by Casuist on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 03:42:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: coors? (2.00 / 1)

I was only staking twelve large bottles of Queensland's own XXXX and a Kevin Rudd t-shirt, it was a friendly wager.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:33:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I saw the Clintons tonite (none / 0)

and it was absolutely amazing. I shook each of their hands, shook Terry McAuliffe's, who is THE MAN, and got all of the Clinton's autographs on my ticket. Being said, I'm sad its come to this. I was just watching the electoral map on MSNBC, and Obama is currently up shits creek.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 03:42:52 AM EST

Re: I saw the Clintons tonite (none / 0)

Did you see Terry McAuliffe on the Daily Show tonight? He was very funny, and he seemed to enjoy it.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 04:04:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

why did they hold the rally in a basement? (none / 0)


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 05:30:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why did they hold the rally in a basement? (2.00 / 2)

Metaphor.


by interestedbystander on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 06:46:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I saw the Clintons tonite (2.00 / 6)

Yeah, his MyDD EV map is pretty rough, what with its 311 electoral votes prior to any bounce he gets from tonight.  Doomed!  Doomed, I say!


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:02:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Just ignore the HRC concern trolling. (none / 0)

McSame's the one up shits creek.


by notxjack on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 12:29:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So what happens next? (none / 0)

Between now and the end of August, I wonder what's going to bring McCain and Obama in and out of the news. Do we all go back to talking about Bush and Iraq?


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 03:43:42 AM EST

No McCain video? (none / 0)

It would have been a good video to put me to sleep..

New Mexico was an exciting night, by the way.  But in the big race between Pearce and Wilson we still don't know who won, though it looks like Pearce.

Ah, New Mexico.  There ain't an important election we can't turn into a 51-49 race!


New Mexico politics from the local perspective.
by fbihop on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 04:01:08 AM EST

Re: No McCain video? (2.00 / 3)

Just stare at a still of it for 20 minutes -- it gives yo the same impression.


by semiquaver on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 04:53:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No McCain video? (2.00 / 1)

GREEN with envy.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 05:34:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No McCain video? (2.00 / 1)

Matt Yglesias notes: "...it's interesting that he's shifted his aesthetic from his old black and white 'fascist' aesthetic to a new green and white Islamofascist aesthetic."

by semiquaver on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 05:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

green = cash (2.00 / 1)

it was probably some sort of subliminal attempt to get rank and file to open their wallets.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 05:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: green = cash (2.00 / 1)

Not that color green. That shade of green doesn't say cash. That shade of green says "a baby puked on my backdrop."
I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 06:09:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: green = cash (2.00 / 5)

I thought it was an environmental thing.  Maybe something like "you can see I care about the environment because of the green background and because I personally am in the process of biodegrading."  


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:03:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

LOL! (none / 0)


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:02:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

LOOOOOL! Mojo++ (none / 0)


by notxjack on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 12:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (2.00 / 1)

so i'm thinking:

Vice president: Feingold
AG: Edwards
Majority leader: Clinton...

anyone elsE?


by fireinthedawn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 05:32:47 AM EST

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (2.00 / 1)

Nice line-up.

Sec. State Biden too.

Sec. Def?  Webb maybe?  Clark?


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 05:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (2.00 / 2)

i'd go with clark. I don't like losing senators.


by fireinthedawn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:33:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (none / 0)

Love Feingold as VP, Edwards as AG.  I have a feeling Hillary is going to want out of the Senate and into a different position in government; court, cabinet, NY governor, something else.  Ted Kennedy went back after being defeated and made it his, but I'm not sure that is what she wants to do.


by mady on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:02:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (none / 0)

I think Hillary wants to be President.
I think Hillary will run again in 2012.

When American realizes the errors of its ways (again), they will vote for her unanimously.  

Then America will finally get the President it needs to make real change.


by stefystef on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 02:07:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Todd, will Hillary be addressing the SEIU? (none / 0)

if not, why not?


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 05:34:04 AM EST

Re: Todd, will Hillary be addressing the SEIU? (none / 0)

I heard she was addressing AIPAC.  


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:08:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (1.00 / 4)

as a hillary supporter and a lifelong and potentially former Dem, I didn't think his speech was all that.  same ole, same ole.  some of us just don't here his dog whistle.  it's about process, and how we can all get along, and a bunch of hot air.  no policy, no partisanship, a very thin gruel.  his foreign policy is jejune, he health care policy is cowardly, his social security policy is right wing, his supporters act like thugs, his media hand maidens are repulsive and his speeches don't inspire the way hillary's actions do.  no why am I supposed to vote for this guy come november?  I mourn for my candidate and my party.  


by joker on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 06:45:51 AM EST

no inspiration from Hillary (2.00 / 2)

And there are large numbers of us who got no ispiration from her.  It is all more of the same politics that have failed the Democrats since 1968.  There is absolutely nothing new that she offered.  

I for one am glad our party is now growing for a new century and not wallowing in the failures of the past


by monkeyga on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:44:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no inspiration from Hillary (none / 0)

There's some hypocrisy or lying here because, presumably, thse are the same people who supported the Clintons in the 1990s, have been saying forever that Bill clinton would win if he ran today, that Al Gore was wrong to distant himself from Clinton, who argue with Bush supporters by noting how much more successful Clinton was on the economy, among other things.

The sad, and ironic, thing about the Obama campaign is that it has in fact caused such people to sound like the GOP w/r/t the Clintons, hence my saying that adversaries are now always viewed as enemies and always have to be portrayed in as negative light as possible now.  But for Obamans to be doing so totally discredits Obama.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:53:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no inspiration from Hillary (none / 0)

There's no hypocrisy here -- Hillary isn't Bill, and I don't understand why people equate one with the other. One managed a masterful insurgent campaign, the other took the most powerful name in Democratic politics and ran it into the ground.

The sad, and ironic, thing about this criticism of Obama supporters is how Clintonites have always, and continue to, view the Obama camp.


by Baseballhead on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:57:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (1.66 / 3)

What I find interesting, watching the news this morning, is no one is talking about the primaries last night.

Obama won Montana, but Hillary won South Dakota.  Daschle is another list of Obama supporters who couldn't deliver their state to Obama- Kennedy, Kerry, Rockefeller, etc.

Now the news is acting like Hillary is this wonderful candidate.  They didn't have nice word to say about her when she was running.  Now, nice words for a woman who deserved more respect than she was given.

And it is the disrespect to her will not be forgotten in November.

Unity.  Yeah, right.


by stefystef on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:50:10 AM EST

I just don't know the disrespect you're (2.00 / 2)

talking about, as a woman, maybe my perspective is different


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:00:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (2.00 / 1)

How did Obama or his campaign ever fail to respect Hillary Clinton?


by snaktime on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:01:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (1.00 / 3)

Please.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:07:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

strange logic (2.00 / 1)

So, correct me if I misunderstood you.

The media treated Clinton poorly.

You are mad about this.

You will vote for McCain to teach the media a lesson?

How old are you?


by emptythreatsfarm on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:33:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strange logic (none / 0)

First, I'm a 43 year old black female, an American.
Second, i didn't say I would vote for McCain.  I said, I'm either not voting at all or writing in Hillary.

Why?

Because I think Obama is the wrong choice and I'm not going to mindlessly follow the same old crappy choice the Democratic National Committee shoves down our throats.

I don't do Kool-Aid.
And I don't ride on bandwagons


by stefystef on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 02:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strange logic (none / 0)

You still didn't explain how your disgust with the media's treatment of Clinton would inspire your vote (or lack of it).

It that wasn't what you meant in your original post, it would be nice if you would write more clearly.


by emptythreatsfarm on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 02:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strange logic (none / 0)

"row faster"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMBeKmViV lA


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 06:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (none / 0)

Another great speech. I hope the bounce is coming, because i'd feel a lot better if it did.


by liberalj on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:57:10 AM EST

So, I've been sort of hoping that (2.00 / 1)

once this race for the nomination was over this site would get better moderation, do you know what I mean?

There are blatant freeper trolls just spewing BS, as if they really think dems are going to vote against their own best interests and believe ther lies that Obama "is a muslim" or "friends with terrorists" (their words).  

Doesn't anybody else find it shocking that on virtually every thread/diary every three to four posts there will be a troll trying to spread these lies in the name of "democracy"?

I haven't been here long, I haven't been involved in political blogs for long, or politics for that matter.  So can someone just tell me if this site is going to become more demoratic (less freeper trolls) or if the Right wing talking points are going to continue to be widely diseminated through this website?  

I really don't want to waste my time here if the latter is true, I've already given this site the benefit of the doubt for a few months.  


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:59:02 AM EST

Re: So, I've been sort of hoping that (2.00 / 2)

This is very unfair of you.

If you look at the diaries on the right of the front page, you will see a couple written by Hillary supporters congratulating Obama, insisting that Clinton supporters must vote for him, and condemning those who say they will vote for McCain.

I have many times here responded to such people by telling them that it makes no sense for a Clinton supporter to vote for McCain, yet I am routinely called a McCain hack, a GOP shill, a troll, etc., by Obama supporters simply because I criticize his supporters and the style of his campaign (I rarely, if ever, actually criticize Obama himself, and in fact agree with him philosophically on most things).

I think a problem is that a lot of Obama's supporters and the media are making it very hard for a lot of Clinton supporters to move over to him. They're so hostile, and it feels like you have to align yourself with people who've been downright brutal to you. That is a strategic error on the part of the Obama side of things.

It must also be noted the irony of this considering the fact that Obama has run on unity and changing these sorts of negative politics. Seems many of his supporters didn't get the memo.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:07:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, I've been sort of hoping that (none / 0)

No, no, no, I can tell the difference between a real Clinton supporter and a troll, I'm not talking about the Clinton supporters that are willing to discuss their opinions, I'm talking about the trolls that say outlandish bs and then disappear, they are everywhere!

When was the last time you typed this:

Obama is a muslim terrorist who hates whitey and if he wins then we are going to be taken over by al qaeda"

that kind of thing is what I'm talking about, it's all over this website.

I just thought that the moderators were being lax on the rules during the primary, but if that's not going to change . . .

the reason why I'm asking is because I was never on this website Before these primaries, I just assumed that there was more moderation before the primaries, am I wrong?


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:12:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, I've been sort of hoping that (2.00 / 2)

I'm not saying such stuff hasn't been posted here, but I can honestly say I"ve never seen it on this site.

I've heard Clinton supporters call in to, say, c-span and say such drivel, (I've also heard some pretty vicious stuff thrown at Clinton from Obama supporters - indeed, many seem to have simply taken  on the 1990s GOP Clinton pathos), but for me it isn't about Clinton or Obama, it's about this Electorate.

Never underestimate the ignorance of the American public. It's one reason I think Obama may well not win in November.  Remember all those people who bought the bull about Kerry wanting to ban the Bible?  

the problem is that politics in America have become about enemies facing off rather than serious contests in which real issues are civilly debated.  IT's about who can best degrade and smear their opponent, and that person wins because the American public thinks in a very combative, American Idol way now (and look who won the Dem primary!).

But again, I condemn that garbage. I cringe whenever I hear those callers insisting Obama is a Muslim (so what if he were anyway? Wouldn't that help us in the Middle East???), yammer on about his middle name, etc., I am critical of Obama for many reasons, but no criticism of Obama is tolerated, and you are,by virtue of having expressed any, called a troll and a GOP hack by his supporters.  So in fact it's not only politics as usual, but it's Bush politics as usual: no criticism of the candidate allowed; you are some kind of horrible monster if you do express any doubt or criticism; loyalty oaths next?


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:21:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well you are exactly right to (2.00 / 1)

distinguish the very real difference between vicous attacks and criticism.

I mean, we all have the right to criticize, we have the right to our opinions, I'm totally in favor of that!

But, it's the vicous crazy repug stuff I'm talking about.  I just don't think it should have any place on this website if this Is a democratic website.

I understand there are still people dissapointed over this primary but I honestly truly don't believe that any Real democrats are posting the kind of stuf I'm talking about.

I mean, there are freepers that only post outlandish negative crap about Obama and No praise about Clinton, that's not a Clinton supporter, that's an Obama hater!  

I just think for the good of this community, if only just out of Self-Respect, we need to get rid of the trolls!!


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:28:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well you are exactly right to (none / 0)

Like I said, never underestimate the stupidity of the American public.

It's hard to know if such people are actually Democratic Clinton supporters or Independents who support Clinton out of disenchantment of Republicans or Republicans acting as shills.  Bush has really damaged the Republican party, and many people don't even want to admit they voted for him or are Republicans (this is why I felt Clinton had a better shot at winning in November, though, too, since she was far more likely to get those voters than is Obama, hard as that is to admit because they leave a lot to be desired).

I think there is no lack for ignorance in this country, Dem, Repub or Independent.  

Btw, they've deleted one of my posts from this morning,and I have no clue as to why, so moderation can be very subjective. And the written word is very often misconstrued because there is no vocal inflection/tone to make clear where the person is coming from.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:38:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh I live in the middle of Texas so (none / 0)

I do Not underestimate the stupidity of the american public! lol

But, I have to admit, I am truly hopeful, in a very cautious way.  Mostly just because of the new democrats that have been brought in by this primary and how much more aware people are about the issues and problems then they were in 2004.  I'm really expecting turnout to be incredible.


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:44:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh I live in the middle of Texas so (none / 0)

I'd feel a little more hopeful if I felt Americans had a better sense of American civics and principles.

I was horrified a couple of years ago to read that a majority of college students felt there should be limits to free speech (aside from the "Fire!" exceptions).

I don't even agree with Obama supporters who say it' s okay to viciously attack and smear John McCain (age jokes, for example) because he's a Republican but it's not okay for a Democrat vying for a nomination to fight hard for it and go after her opponent BECAUSE HE'S a Democrat (allt he while being totally oblivious to or accepting of the vicious attacks on her).

That, to me, totally nullifies Obama's position on change and unity.  I believe in being principled and being so across the board, whether that principle is no negative or all negative, just be consistent.

A big problem in politics now is that everyone has one set of rules for themselves and entirely different ones for everyone else. That never works.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:50:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

that's weird: (none / 0)

"I was horrified a couple of years ago to read that a majority of college students felt there should be limits to free speech (aside from the "Fire!" exceptions)."

I don't think that's true!  

You really can't equate some crazy supporters with their candidate, it's not Obama's fault if some crazies want to try and support him in their crazy way, all candidates have their crazies.  The existence of crazies doesn't somehow negate a candidates message.

your speaking in generalities too, there comes a point where we can't discuss issues because we're nitpicking on little individual instances that have no real reflection on the big picture, which is what i'm concerned with.

Do I think some of the freeper trolls on NoQuarter threatening Obama in the name of Clinton reflects anything about Clinton?  Absolutely not, that would be ridiculous right?


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:58:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's weird: (none / 0)

I'm not equating them with Obama, I'm saying he hasn't been able to affect that change and inspiration he claims he can.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:19:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's weird: (none / 0)

He has been able to inspire enough to be our nominee...


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 06:06:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's weird: (none / 0)

Btw, Taylor Marsh has had to put up a warning on her site that she is going to report people because she is getting not only vile emails from Inspired Ones who want change and hope but also death threats, and this even after it's been clear for a while that Obama would get the nomination.

Obama has affected ZERO change except to turn Democrats against each other.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:21:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

it goes both ways, clinton supporters (none / 0)

have contributed their fair share to the vitriol

Obama never said he was going to ensure that every supporter of his act like a stepford wife as soon as they decided to support him

His campaign is and always has been about the General election, not HRC.  Just like HRC's campaign has always been about the general.

It is unfair to say that Obama is to blame for the animosity between the Clinton camp and the Obama camp.  No, what's to blem is the contest itself and the candidates having near equal support.

To put it simply: It was hotly contested because it was so hotly contested.


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:33:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it goes both ways, clinton supporters (none / 0)

Again, it's about discrediting Obama, not about tying him to such people.

If he can't inspire people to behave better, as he claims and as his the theme of his candidacy, then it's just rhetoric, and many of his own supporters do that to him.

Clinton never ran on such a thing. In terms of civility, I think Obama and his supporters have sest themselves up to be held to a higher standard. But they fail.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:39:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I never thought that was theme of his (none / 0)

candidacy, I guess that's why we disagree, I just realized.

I don't ever remember Obama promising anything having to do with his supporters.  I mean, he's said he would bring in new voters, and he has.

And, he's said he would change Washington, well, he can't change it until he gets there, so why would a few of his supporters be a fair representation of what he might accomplish.

You realize don't you that what we're talking about is completely subjective?  But you're stating this opinion as fact.  

I think that's where the disconnect is for me, I just don't agree that Obama's supporters are in any way indicative of the administration he will run, or the policies he will pass, I just don't see any kind of connection between what he's promising and his supporters very Human reaction to this campaign.

Obama never promised he would take away his supporters emotions, he never said he would inspire them to Not defend our party, our democracy,

Again, I get Highly suspicious when someone tells me I Care Too Much.


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:13:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And, youre obviously arguing for (none / 0)

an impossibility, and I think you know this.

Obvoiusly, No politician could ever have complete controll over every single human being that voted for them, even if that politician had made the promise to do exactly that, that's literaly impossible,

But yet, you say that's what you expect of Obama.

So if you expect something superhuman of Obama, how is that different than other's putting him on a pedestal?


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:16:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it goes both ways, clinton supporters (none / 0)

Last night 17,000 cheered Clinton after Our Nominee Obama praised her.

At Clinton's speech they were shouting Denver..Denver


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 06:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well . .. (none / 0)

"So in fact it's not only politics as usual, but it's Bush politics as usual"

I wouldn't say it quite like that, but, you could say it's human nature as usual


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:31:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well . .. (none / 0)

I've seen too many similarities from the start, and it makes me shudder.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:45:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

similarities between Bush and Obama (none / 0)

oh please list them


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:51:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh no, don't be mean!!! (none / 0)

"IT's about who can best degrade and smear their opponent, and that person wins because the American public thinks in a very combative, American Idol way now (and look who won the Dem primary!"

C'mon, that's not fair to me, the parrt about the American public is spot on, but not the part about me!  I had very real substantive reasons for voting for Barack, I realize you had very real substantive reasons for voting for Clinton, surely we can both concede that to each other.


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:37:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh no, don't be mean!!! (none / 0)

I wasn't speaking about you. I was speaking culturally.  I refuse to watch "American Idol" or any of those gross reality programs because I think they are based around humiliating and degrading people, and there is so much of that in American life now, and I just can't stand it.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:44:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I know, it's ridiculous, I'm pretty sure (none / 0)

most of us liberals feel the same way, but I don't think Obama won this nomination by taking advantage of that kind of mentality.  I think the people who truly vote on identity are the repugs, largely due to low IQ and intelligence I think.

I'm pretty sure most thinking, rational intelligent Americans (democrats) don't vote on identity.  The challenge is getting those voters encouraged that this election will Not be another beauty contest, that's what is going to give us the landslide.


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:49:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know, it's ridiculous, I'm pretty sure (none / 0)

I have to disagree with you on this.

The Obama candidacy has turned half the Democratic Electorate into people who sound no different toward the Clintons than did the Republicans throughout the 1990s.  It's all about hating her, and him.

I've even seen some say the Republicans were right.  I'm sure Republicans have been thrilled and feel vindicated, thanks to Obama supporters.

Really shocking.  


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:18:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And I've seen clinton supporters embrace (none / 0)

the right wing talking points of this season to attack Obama so it Absolutely goes both ways, you cannot deny that, can you?


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:35:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

how can you say "half the party" (none / 0)

have you presonally surveyed every member to decide if in fact exactly 50% of democrats are "people who sound no different toward the Clintons than did the Republicans throughout the 1990s."

And if so, whose criteria did you use to make that judgement?

See where I'm going with this?

I'm just having a really hard time talking about specific issues when you talk in such exaggerations


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:23:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think you misunderstood, I wasn't (none / 0)

talking about Clinton supporters, I'm talking about obvious freeper trolls, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

I just want to know if this site is going to be better moderated because I just don't want to have to read posts all the time about how 'hussein the terrorist muslim will eat my baby if he is elected,' that sort of thing.

Again, sorry if I wasn't clear about what I meant


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:22:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, I've been sort of hoping that (1.00 / 1)

LOL!  About 30 minutes ago you said:

About Obama's speech:  "What I heard was, "aren't I fantastic!" and then I changed the channel (I have a hard time listening to Obama speak).

Then this gem:  "For Obama, it's all about Obama."

Juno, you're a great troll but you should at least separate your obvious lies from thread to thread if you expect anyone to believe you.


Let's elect a Dem President!
by SpanishFly on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:49:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, I've been sort of hoping that (none / 0)

Yes, that is waht I heard in the speech, but I also know that Obama has gotten the nomination.

You are like a Bushie: only good things can be said about your candidate and only bad about your opponent, otherwise you are a troll and a horrible person who must be silenced.

Really bad politics.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:15:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, I've been sort of hoping that (none / 0)

This from the same person who equates any critics of HRC to Republicans. No hypocrisy there!


by Baseballhead on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 12:02:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (none / 0)

Obama's actually speaking at the AIPAC Conference before SEIU.  Should be on in a few minutes--the conspiracy theories should begin shortly thereafter.


by Jay R on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:02:15 AM EST

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (2.00 / 3)

Btw, I do wish Clinton supporters would get off the VP thing.

Michelle Obama despises Hillary Clinton, and there is no way she would allow Obama to have her as his veep.

Second, if Clinton took the vp slot, it would only be for purposes of becoming president at a future date, and I'm tired of the presidency being politicized and used for political purposes.  She is not a vp type, she is a leader, and it would be a combustible combination (i think they do not like each other ,both want total power, and it would be a bad idea, IMO).

Common sense tells me anyway that Obama isn't even considering it.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:13:51 AM EST

yeah, actually I think it would beneath her (none / 0)

her awesome talents would be completely wasted, she's already had that job, from 1992-2000!  We really need her to play a much larger role in the future of our country, we can't afford to put her in some position where she is wasted, and I'm sure she doesn't want that either!


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:34:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, actually I think it would beneath her (none / 0)

See,an Obama supporter like you can make it not only easier but pleasant to get behind Obama.

Unfortunately, you are rarity.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:40:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, actually I think it would beneath her (none / 0)

BS!  You actually said something that made sense, for the first time in a long while!  I actually Mojo'ed you on your comment.  Give it a rest.  MANY Obama supporters (and in case you haven't noticed, the trend here will be toward 100% of the posters here pretty quick) would give you the "love" you seem to so need if you just didn't put out this bitter, nasty vibe 99.9% of the time.


Let's elect a Dem President!
by SpanishFly on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:53:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, actually I think it would beneath her (none / 0)

I have noted many times here that I am well aware that it is totally a different thing when an Obama supporter bashes Clinton or a Clinton supporter, Spanish Fly.

And of course you mojo'd me.  I said Clinton should concede.

I'm sure you don't see the flaw in your argument, though.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:13:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, actually I think it would beneath her (none / 0)

What I'm sure you don't get is the fact that you stepped away from your talking points for a minute and said something intelligent.  This got you a few complimentary comments from...  Obama Supporters.  

Did you ever think you were attracting flies for a reason, in the past?

Never mind.  Have a good one.


Let's elect a Dem President!
by SpanishFly on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:40:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, actually I think it would beneath her (none / 0)

Rght. When you say something nice about Obama or mean about Clinton, you're in good with the Obama crowd and suddenly intelligent.

That is Bush one-sided thinking, Spanish Fly.  You are not at all an objective thinker.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:51:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, actually I think it would beneath her (2.00 / 1)

You are a FANTASTIC troll.  I see it now.  You actually said something intelligent so you could immediately swing back to your talking points within the thread.  Wonderful, masterful trolling!  Bravo.

Sorry I gave you the benefit of the doubt.  I won't make that mistake again.


Let's elect a Dem President!
by SpanishFly on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:06:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

well I do think there will have to be some (none / 0)

meeting in the middle.  

Really, all this animosity is the fault of the real trolls, they've pushed the envelope between the two sides that we all just let any kind of disagreement devolve without even trying to discuss anything, it makes for a very sad forum I think

Anyway, I really believe once they get rid of the trolls we'll all start respecting each other more because we'll be forced too!  


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:02:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, actually I think it would beneath her (2.00 / 2)

Clinton is blowing it for herself right now. She needs to concede, and not for party unity. I've never bought the arguments that she's harming party unity. She isn't any more than is the Obama camp (but they're supposed to be the ones with unity skills).

But for herself.  Obamans need to ignore her. The media need to ignore her - She set herself up for that, I'm sorry to say - and just get on with the General campaign (Obama has figured this out. He is often on a very different page than his supporters).

They only play into her hands when they write and shriek about how awful she is. IF they ignored her, the only person who'd be harmed by that would be Clinton because she didn't concede last night.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:43:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As an Obama supp. I have to agree (none / 0)

with this :Obama has figured this out. He is often on a very different page than his supporters

lol, it's true!


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:04:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As an Obama supp. I have to agree (none / 0)

You can see by the comments here how invested in bashing Clinton they still are, while denying Clinton has been mistreated, and while insisting they're for change.

That, to me, is akin to Bush Orwellianism.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:12:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As an Obama supp. I have to agree (none / 0)

I think some are just still pivoting to GE mode, some are outright trolls, some are very clever trolls, but some are just a little slow at letting the nomination go, on both sides.


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:19:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As an Obama supp. I have to agree (none / 0)

There is more of an excuse for those on the losing side to have a hard time letting go and expressing disappointment, even anger.

When winners do it, it's just classless. It's how Repubs won in '00 and '04 too.

Yuck.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:35:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As an Obama supp. I have to agree (none / 0)

It's one thing to feel bad that your candidate lost, it's another to ruin it for the rest of the party.

Get over it.


by Baseballhead on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 12:03:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (2.00 / 2)

I agree with you on this one, Juno. It makes no sense.

As time has rolled on, I see Clinton's options narrowing further and further. I personally believe "taking it to Denver" would destroy her career, and ultimately have little to no effect on the GE. Whether you like Obama or not, the man is a rock star, and barring dead girl/live boy, he will be the next president.

Given all that - I can't figure out why she decided to play political chicken last night. I can't figure out what she hopes to gain. Any ideas?


John McCain Hates Poor People
by pneuma on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:41:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

maybe she just wants to do it on her own terms (none / 0)


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:05:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (none / 0)

As I've said before, while being called a troll and other epithets by Inspired Obamans, I am a realist.

Obama is NOT a rock star.  It's that mentality that is unnerving.  Bush was sent from God. Obama's a rock star.

Why do Americans need to feel their political leaders are something par human?

They're not. Obama is as political as any pol, and he will be a very weak General candidate in many ways.

That is the reality.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:10:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

what Obama supporter has called (none / 0)

him a rock star, isn't that the label Other campaigns gave him?!

I don't think he's a rock star, I don't even like rock music, or pop music at all, I listen to strictly classical (I'm a musician)

Anyway, I'm totally not into that kind of cult mentality, Ive always hated to be like everybody else.  Seriously, I refuse to own an ipod for that reason.  And, I despise Starbucks and pretty much anything that is overly popular, so I'm with you on that!


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:14:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what Obama supporter has called (none / 0)

Watch it.  You are not allowed to note the cult mentality.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:34:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

lol, I hope that's not true! In all (none / 0)

seriousness though, the "cult mentality" meme is just another distraction isn't it?

Case in point, the people that get involved in elections, like you and I end up really Really caring about the politicians that we choose to support.  I'm not ashamed of that, in fact I think it makes me a better citizen and I feel good about myself as an American the more involved I am.  

So, the more involved we are, the more we care, the more other groups might be able to say "you care too much, it's not natural."  

But, we see right through that don't we?  Of course we care!  We All care!  I don't believe Clinton supporters care any less about the problems we face!  Does that mean that I think they are a cult because I know they care as much as me?

It's all too silly


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:42:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In general I'm wary (none / 0)

of people who tell me I care too much,

people who make that argument are usually trying to depress a certain voting block.  

It's ridiculous, people who vote care, if they didnt care, they wouldn't vote!


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:44:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

well, he's Our general candidate, and (none / 0)

I dissagree, I think he's strong, but, strong or weak, he's Ours


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:16:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (2.00 / 1)

You keep telling yourself that. If you hold Obama's speech up against McCain's, there was no contest. Even the conservative pundits are calling it a "wipe-out" (go check the great orange Satan for more). After five months of having to stand next to Obama, McCain is going to look ready for the retirement home.

Why is that so unnerving btw? What is wrong with having such a charismatic leader? You do realize that the vast majority of people vote with their guts, right? It is all a matter of whether McCain can make them feel afraid of the bogeyman, so they'll vote for him; or Obama can make them feel hopeful, so they'll vote for him. There is no doubt in my mind at who is more effective on that score.
 


John McCain Hates Poor People
by pneuma on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:18:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Election Open Thread (none / 0)

First of all, the mistake Democrats (but not Clintons) make is insisting that it's about Obama and McCain. It isn't.

You are imposing the way you think on others while disregarding how the brundt of this country thinks. This is the same country that elected George W. Bush TWICE, that thinks Ronald Reagan was the greatest president in US history, etc.

Second, I don't think Obama is charismatic. I see through him, just as I see through Clinton's political machinations.  Indeed, I have a hard time listening to Obama because I think he's smug, doesn't really say anything and in fact says nothing in lieu of having a fairly empty resume.

My point is, putting people on pedestals is dangerous because once the cracks come, and they will, they come harder.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:33:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

but you're assuming we All have him up on a (none / 0)

pedestal when you don't even know us.  

Do some Obama supporters have ihm up on a pedestal?  

I'm sure

Do I? No I don't, if you knew me you'd know that.  I'm not sitting here making assumptions about you or all Clinton supporters.  Again, you're speaking in generalities that seem to only serve to divide us.  Unless you can give specific examples of Obama supporters putting Obama on a pedestal, and the names of these people, and the evidence that our party is being destroyed by this . . .

And does the person you're responding too have Obama up on a pedestal?  Well I don't know, I don't know them, I'd have to talk with them for hours to make that judgement, and then I'd have to think for days on the question of wether it's even any of my business, or my place to care, wether or not someone Wants to have Obama up on a pedestal.


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:52:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: but you're assuming we All have him up on a (none / 0)

You are the first Obama supporter here with whom I have been able to have a civil dialog and disagree with.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:02:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree with that! maybe it's a trend! (none / 0)

I hope so, not to sound trite, but, we really Do need unity!  lol


McCain does Not support the troops
by hope monger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:04:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

good post (2.00 / 2)

I think that the two of them on one ticket is an absolute recipe for disaster.

I do want to see the VP go back to a more back-seat position than it has been for the last 8 years.  The President needs to be the leader and be seen as making his (or her) own choices.  


by monkeyga on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:49:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

incedible shrinking woman (2.00 / 0)

it was sad to see HRC last night. She could have risen to the occasion and at least mentioned the historical nomination of a black man for President. Instead she took the low road and decided to have a fund raiser and go to bed. At the end she seemed to disappear.


by cacamp on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:10:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: incedible shrinking woman (1.00 / 0)

Obamans are taking as much time to get over their Clinton hatred and bashing as it is for her to accept defeat, so call it a draw.

Clinton would have been the first female presidential nominee or president.  As a group, she represents over 50% of the population.  In Obama's case, it's 10%. So while it's great that a black man is now vying for president, I think it also shows that the claims of racism were either bogus or real racism was roundly rejected while women, who make up a much larger percentage of the population, have a very long way to go and the sexism and misogyny that reared its ugly head were NOT met with horror and rejection.

I think that is not a good thing.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:29:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: incedible shrinking woman (none / 0)

This is nasty politics. The whole "she's a woman" thing is completely beside the point; I don't want a candidate whose claims to the nomination rest on gender or race, I want one whose policies I can agree with. If you're happy to just vote on gender identity, bully for you, but don't expect everyone else to vote solely on race or gender.


by Baseballhead on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 12:07:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Time to get with the program (2.00 / 2)

Dear Jerome and other MyDD poobahs:

Your map now shows both Obama and Clinton winning with very similar EV totals. So much for the argument that Clinton is the stronger candidate.

It's now time to take down the Dem delegate counter--and the Clinton map.


by laviolet on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:49:33 AM EST

Hillary: "S. Dakota had the last word" (2.00 / 1)

But Montana was the last state to be tallied.

And she lost Montana.

This is the problem that so many of us have had with her candidacy -- the willingnessto completely ignore reality and choose her own "facts" to fit her campaign's self-image and self-interest.

Thinking that the public can be duped by such lies? Not what I ever want in a leader.


by Hudson on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:51:34 AM EST

Ditto (none / 0)

And again, the day after their candidate got the nomination, all Obama's supporters can do is continue to attack Clinton.

So where's the change?

Seems to me much of the public bought his hooey about change and hope and inspiration. They themselves prove it is merely rhetoric and that reality cannot be made to match the rhetoric.


by Juno on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:07:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ditto (2.00 / 1)

We are irritated that Clinton behaved exactly as we expected her to. I expect more of my leaders than she delivers, and for once, I wanted to feel good about her.

The change is in Washington. Look, just because we want to change our government, doesn't mean we are lobotomized. It doesn't mean we aren't going to push back when someone keeps repeating the same lies, over and over and over. How many times have you asked "Where's the change?" "Where's the unity?" in the last couple of days? People keep calling you a Republican because that is a Republican tactic. Remember the Saddam/9-11 connection? Over and over and over.

I've tried to be gracious. I've tried to reach out to Clinton supporters. And after what I have seen last night, I've had it. I've had it with the snide needling, the ridiculous spin, the out right lies. Take your ball and go home. We'll do this without you. We don't need you.


John McCain Hates Poor People
by pneuma on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:28:04 AM EST
[