Is honesty really so foreign to us?

Here's a possibility nobody seems to have considered in all the Obama/FISA brouhaha.

Maybe Obama isn't jumping to the right for political expediency.  Maybe Obama isn't afraid of Republicans calling him soft on terrorism.  Maybe he's not cynically using the terrorism card to scare up votes.

Maybe he just honest-to-god thinks that the American people are safer if the legislation passes.

You see, the pre-existing FISA statutes made it difficult if not impossible to track modern electronic communications that use packet-switched protocols like the Internet.  To put a wiretap on someone's phone, for example, required that you specify the specific landline that's being tapped; or that you get the cooperation of the telco providers on either end of the call in the case of cellphone traffic.

But give me five minutes of wardriving and I can find an Internet connection that I can leech off of, and place an anonymous, strongly-encrypted Skype call over the Internet to somebody across the planet who is sitting in a Starbucks in Tokyo.

There's no way to get the specific cooperation of the service providers on either end of the call, because both I and my friend could be using any random service provider we happen to tap into.  We could be anywhere while we're doing it, tapping into any public, unsecured, or weakly-secured wireless network.  There isn't even any way for the service providers that we're attaching ourselves to to know who we are.  It's a completely anonymous system.

But in the end, every packet traveling between large networks has to hit an Internet backbone, and that means it will travel through one of a relatively small set of backbone-level routers.  If there's going to be any sort of tap, it has to be there; and it has to be messy, sniffing all of a certain kind of traffic and performing deep packet inspection to try to identify who is talking to whom.

The pre-existing FISA statutes didn't allow this.  The new one that is proposed does.

It makes me nervous to have the government performing this sniffing, as it should make anyone nervous, but as long as it requires a court order and oversight--and despite what the ACLU is saying on this issue, it does require a court order and judicial and legislative oversight--I personally am satisfied that it's no worse than the old FISA.  And I can see a very reasonable argument for its necessity, because there are people out there who we need to listen to, and we can't leave the "Skype loophole" open forever, because we'd very quickly stop getting any intelligence at all.

There are ways to prevent attacks other than monitoring chatter, and I think that for now they are sufficient to protect us.  For that reason, I don't want this bill passed unless the telco immunity is stripped out.  But I could respect an argument, if Senator Obama makes it, that closing this loophole in our intelligence-gathering capabilities, and by consequence potentially saving American lives, trumps the retroactive civil immunity for telcos issue; even if I disagree with it.

Of course, nobody has actually voted on the bill yet in the Senate...  So those who are saying he will vote for it may well be counting their chickens before they hatch.

My question to y'all:  Are we all so jaded and cynical now that we consider the least likely situation to be a politician telling the full and honest truth about his own motivations?



Display:


Re: Is honesty really so foreign to us? (2.00 / 1)

lol ofcourse people here are political junkies

there is no such thing as an honest politican to them.

with that said I still say Obama is doing it for political motiviations, but I don't know where I stand on the current FISA bill, I haven't read enough yet.


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:40:38 AM EST

so your point is that (1.00 / 1)

maybe he is a fucking moron who doesn't know or understand the constitution?


by Teacher1956 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:46:41 AM EST

How do you feel about the old FISA? (none / 0)

Because this bill has very roughly the same level of protections as provided by the old FISA.  If you are a United States person living abroad, or if you are in the United States, you cannot be listened to without a warrant specifying probable cause.  Which is, of course, completely compatible with the 4th amendment of the Constitution.

Now, if you think that the old FISA was overreaching and the entire thing ought to be repealed, I'll respect your position as being consistent at least.  Even though I will strongly disagree.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:53:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yes I do think the Old FISA (none / 0)

is bad and should be repealed.  The problem with Immunity, which I am betting will stay in the bill and Obama will vote for it, is that we will have no way of prosecuting the government when they break the law because without being able to get the records of the companies doing the spying.  
Rumor has it that Pelosi and Reid and several others know what was going on and allowed it when the government was spying on us, before they got retroactive permission from congress, and they allowed it to happen.  So immunity for the telecoms is self serving.  They do not want to be found out.  What a couple of losers we have running the show.
by Teacher1956 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

so dumb (2.00 / 1)

the notion think civil discovery against private telecoms is a good avenue to find out what the government was doing is both stupid and abusive litigation.  Sue the government directly or lobby Congress to investigate.


by JJE on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:32:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not really (none / 0)

The government can and will use state secrets privilege to quash any suits against them which involve national security.  Suing the government over this is utterly futile, especially in this administration, but I suspect things would be no different under President Obama.  Since the government cannot invoke the privilege in suits not involving them, suing the ISPs is our only avenue to discover the extent of these crimes and hold accountable those who committed them.


by semiquaver on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 01:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

this argument has several flaws (none / 0)

You are completely wrong to say that the government cannot invoke the privilege in suits not involving them.  The government can intervene as a third party and invoke the state secret doctrine and has done so successfully in several instances.

Secondly, you completely ignored the point that Congress can investigate the telecoms if it desires.


by JJE on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: this argument has several flaws (none / 0)

You're right, I was mistaken that SS can only be invoked when the gov't is a defendant.

However, I'm too busy to find a source, but I'm quite sure that the administration tried to quash the suits on SS grounds and the courts decided that they could not, and repeatedly on appeal.  If that were not the case, these 40-odd lawsuits would not be ongoing, as they currently are.

And yes, Congress can investigate, but once the immunity is granted, there'll be a fat chance of that.  


by semiquaver on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 05:18:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are correct (none / 0)

the government did try to use SS in the telecom suits, and was slapped down.

But that doesn't really bolster your point, it seems to me.  If the courts rejected that attempt in a suit against AT&T, why would they accept it in a Bivens action against the NSA?

I also don't see why immunity from civil suits (which I do oppose on the merits, btw, just not this particular ground) stops Congress from investigating.


by JJE on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes I do think the Old FISA (none / 0)

There are plenty of ways to obtain discovery.  Hell, the state secrets privilege is common law; Congress could partially repeal that themselves.  Also, JJE noted several other, more politically palatable methods.  

In any event, the issues you identified are not constitutional in scope.


by rfahey22 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:36:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that description (none / 0)

would apply more aptly to you, i'm afraid


by JJE on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:28:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is honesty really so foreign to us? (2.00 / 1)

Key sentence -

"I don't want this bill passed unless the telco immunity is stripped out."

To me, this seems like the most important sentence.  And, as far as I can tell, the real sticking point to the whole thing.

What you say makes sense insofar as we no longer live in a society with free speech, free association, or protection from unreasonable search and seizure.  Only the core 90% have those freedoms.  But if you are outside of that large block, watch out.  This is no different from any other police state.

It has been this way since the beginning of the Cold War.


by the mollusk on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:17:19 PM EST

Re: Is honesty really so foreign to us? (none / 0)

Did you pick the right sentence?  It doesn't seem to follow with the rest.

People who have probable cause for a search warrant and then have that warrant issued have never enjoyed protection from search and seizure.

Granted, the 4th Amendment also requires that warrants must specify the place and the object in question; but the amendment was written long before any sort of electronic communication technology was even an issue, and was written with the intent to protect people from shotgun warrants--"We'll get a search warrant for this guy's house, then just keep searching till we find something incriminating, whatever it is."  The USA PATRIOT Act is responsible for putting FISA in conflict with that intent; before USA PATRIOT, intelligence gathered by FISA could not be used for unrelated criminal prosecution.  FISA is not, in and of itself, to blame; and this bill works with the same FISA framework.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is honesty really so foreign to us? (none / 0)

I probably was combining two ideas in that comment.  The first part - and I believe I chose the correct sentence - was pointing out that the real problem with this bill (in my opinion) is that it lets telcos off the hook for breaking a law which they are very familiar with.

The second point was essentially bemoaning the gist of you post.  Which is probably correct in the final analysis, but still depressing.  Because at its root wiretapping is about people being targeted because of things that they say or people that they communicate with.  It isn't really about acts of terrorism per se.  It's about restricting the kind of speech that we think is acceptable.  And secondly its about trying to prevent groups that we find dangerous from communicating with each other.  If they are terrorists I suppose this is a good thing.  But what if we decide that union organizers are dangerous?  What about peace activists?  What about anarchists?  Radical environmentalists?  Bloggers?

Once you have a box, you will find that some people do not fit neatly inside that box.  If you decide to drop the hammer on those people, then you really are living in a police state.  It may not feel like it to the people inside the box, but it sure does to the people not inside the box.


by the mollusk on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:25:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is honesty really so foreign to us? (none / 0)

I suppose it's probably little consolation if you presume that restrictions in the bill are only cosmetic, but the bill specifically says that no one may be targeted under this act solely for activities protected by the First Amendment.  Specifically, you can't use protected speech as probable cause for a FISA warrant.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 08:06:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is honesty really so foreign to us? (none / 0)

The NSA has been monitoring international voice calls in this way for decades. Overseas calls have always been monitored for key words and phrases. This is an extension of that policy to email and chat. I'm not supporting the practice, only pointing out that it is not really something new.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:20:30 PM EST

Re: Is honesty really so foreign to us? (none / 0)

There's a huge technological difference between international voice calls (circuit-switched network) and Internet traffic (packet-switched network).  It's quite arcane to the non-pocket-protector crowd, but the practical upshot is that Internet communications cannot be monitored in the same way that phone communications are.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:37:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is honesty really so foreign to us? (none / 0)

I wasn't getting into the technical aspects. I was just pointing out that voice calls have been monitored for a long time. The methods may be new, but the act of monitoring isn't new.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is honesty really so foreign to us? (none / 0)

1. obama previously opposed immunity, that flip is the issue here, not fisa itself imo.

2.you (and obama) clearly know that when used properly, modern encryption is unbreakable except by exploiting human factors, which would take place on an individual's computer, not at an isp router.  bigwig terrorists are not stupid, and they know this too.  the potential for abuse vs the potential benefits, especially given that everyone now knows the internet is monitored, makes this a politically expedient issue for obama to appear strong on, not a pragmatic one.  

if you are a terrorist not using strong encryption, chances are you're an idiot and there's not much to gain from intercepting your communications.  I predict the practical upshot of all this will be that transparent encryption will be built into all internet applications.


by semiquaver on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:28:50 PM EST

preemting (none / 0)

Some might suggest that the nsa can build backdoors into encryption products.  but open source software means that users can verify that no such backdoors exist.  the only way to truly snoop on someone who has something to hide and knows what he is doing is to compromise his personal computer. which renders backbone snooping moot.

the only ones who have anything to lose from this are normal people who value privacy.


by semiquaver on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:40:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: preemting (none / 0)

I think you overestimate the strength of consumer-grade encryption, or underestimate the ability of the NSA to crack it.  They have access to the most powerful computer resources in the world, and cryptography is what they do.

Meanwhile, my computer can probably encrypt my Skype call using 128-bit symmetric key encryption at best.

I'll pose it from the other direction: why would the NSA be going after backbone snooping if they didn't think they could get something useful out of it?


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:00:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: preemting (none / 0)

I'll pose it from the other direction: why would the NSA be going after backbone snooping if they didn't think they could get something useful out of it?
Good point -- I suppose it could be that catching lower level members who don't properly secure their connections provides a lead that the gov't can leverage to work their way up the chain, so to speak.  And clearly they would rather get whatever leads they can.  Also, it's entirely possible that I'm wrong.  My idea of terrorist communications is probably a bit too inspired by '24'.  Although I've heard that Al-Qaeda in particular are well up on that kind of stuff.
I think you overestimate the strength of consumer-grade encryption, or underestimate the ability of the NSA to crack it.
I don't want to talk down to you, so please don't take offense if, as is likely, you know any of this.  I'm just being thorough.

The most widespread form of encryption, Public-key cryptography, used by skype and web browsers, has very little overhead.  It works by multiplying large prime numbers together, which for computers takes a negligible amount of resources (e.g. an everyday  2Ghz 64-bit dual core could perform two billion 128-bit multiplications per second).  Multiplying is easy, but factoring a number with only two prime factors is extremely hard, even for modestly sized numbers because of the exponential growth of the problem.  We can multiply a billion bit numbers effortlessly but we can't factor 100 bit semiprimes.  Anyways, a 20-year old computer could easily cope with 128 bit SSL used in browsers, even if it couldn't render the page.

Because of this and other things, the term 'consumer-grade encryption' is somewhat meaningless these days, especially in the era of open source software.  Very few algorithms used in encryption today are proprietary, so anyone can implement them and share that implementation with everyone.  In fact, the methods that are freely available for consumers to inspect the guts of are widely considered to be superior to closed-source version as the openness of these systems means that the world's top cryptography experts can and do continually vet them for errors.  There's immense prestige afforded to the researcher that breaks a high-profile cipher, and the number of such people working worldwide dwarfs the resources of the NSA.  This means that the public has cost-free access to top of the line security products that have been mathematically proven to be unbreakable unless the attacker is in possession of nearly infinite computing resources.

(for example, any 256-bit algorithm has a keyspace greater than the number of atoms in the universe.  If our computers were as efficient as information theory allows, using all the matter on Earth to construct them, and we had 100% efficient access to all  the remaining power in our sun, we still wouldn't be likely to brute-force a 128-bit key.)

You're right that even in the recent past it's been possible to brute force commonly used encryption.  The Electronic Frontier Foundation made big waves in 1998 by building their own massively parallel dedicated cracking engine called Deep Crack for under $250,000 that was able to try every possible combination in a message encrypted with the then US government standard DES.  It finished working in 56 hours.  By the next year, using distributed online resources, that time was halved.  Clearly the NSA has more than ample resources to duplicate this feat.  But DES was widely criticized at the time for having a 56-bit keyspace.  Adding one bit doubles the search space, so even a hypothetical 60-bit DES would take 16x more resources to crack by this method.  With this exponential growth, by the time you hit 128 and 256 bits, you've made brute-force attacks impossible for any government.  

Of course just having 128-bits isn't a guarantee that your method is strong, the 802.11's WEP can utilize a 128-bit key and still be broken in seconds on an active access point using a replay attack (useful in a pinch).  This was replaced by WPA which is as far as we know unbreakable.  This pattern of encryption being broken and replaced has been ongoing, but it's not going to last forever.  In the future, like WEP, some of our methods of encryption will be shown to have weaknesses that allow governments to sidestep their mathematical soundness, but the whole world has access to these methods and can find these attacks too.

At some point soon, if we haven't reached it yet, the only feasible method of breaking encryption will be monitoring the source or sink of the data, which of course can't ever be completely defended against.  If, as I predict, encryption becomes extremely widespread for mundane communication (and there's no reason to believe it won't be -- it's prudent and the trend is obvious), snooping at the routers will be useless.

My CS background probably makes me overconfident in computers' abilities, but nothing I've said above is false.  


by semiquaver on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 10:19:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: preemting (none / 0)

Same disclaimer...

The most widespread form of encryption, Public-key cryptography, used by skype and web browsers, has very little overhead.  It works by multiplying large prime numbers together, which for computers takes a negligible amount of resources (e.g. an everyday  2Ghz 64-bit dual core could perform two billion 128-bit multiplications per second).  Multiplying is easy, but factoring a number with only two prime factors is extremely hard, even for modestly sized numbers because of the exponential growth of the problem.  We can multiply a billion bit numbers effortlessly but we can't factor 100 bit semiprimes.  Anyways, a 20-year old computer could easily cope with 128 bit SSL used in browsers, even if it couldn't render the page.

SSL/TLS uses public-key only for the handshake, then agrees on a symmetric session key and uses it from that point on for performance reasons.  One problem with public-key encryption like PGP/GPG/RSA is that it is very computationally intensive to encrypt and decrypt.  It can't be used for any realtime communications tool, though it could be used for IM and e-mail.

Multiplying prime numbers together is how the keys are created, but the actual process of encrypting using those keys is more complicated.  And public-key algorithms frequently use VERY large keys, in the 1024-2048 bit range.

Public-key algorithms are also significantly weaker in terms of security than symmetric key algorithms of the same key size.  The only real advantage that public-key cryptography has is making key management and exchange much easier.

For the record, Skype uses Rijndael/AES, a symmetric-key algorithm.  It's quite secure at 256 bits, but again that makes it significantly more computationally-intensive.  Performing a single operation on 256 bits can take many desktop computers dozens of clock cycles to complete, since they use 32- or 64-bit registers to store data.

Because of this and other things, the term 'consumer-grade encryption' is somewhat meaningless these days, especially in the era of open source software.

I might have been unclear.  We have very strong encryption available to consumers nowadays, what I meant was the encryption that can be performed with the requisite performance characteristics for real-time communication on consumer-grade hardware; which is probably no more than 128-bit symmetric key encryption, if that.

(for example, any 256-bit algorithm has a keyspace greater than the number of atoms in the universe.  If our computers were as efficient as information theory allows, using all the matter on Earth to construct them, and we had 100% efficient access to all  the remaining power in our sun, we still wouldn't be likely to brute-force a 128-bit key.)

This may just be my paranoia working here, but they said nobody could ever break 64-bit symmetric key encryption either; and there's plenty of theoretical work proving that certain on-the-horizon technologies like quantum computers can crack an asymmetric cipher in polynomial time (to key length) and a symmetric cypher in O(sqrt(n)) (to keyspace size) (note--sqrt(2^128) = 2^64, which is already broken).  In my experience, people like the NSA have access to new technology years before they're even begun to be commercialized.  But I'll cede the point that a 128-bit cipher is probably safe against brute-force using classical tools, and there's no evidence (that I know of!) that the NSA has anything more exotic than that.

Anyway, all that is assuming that P != NP, which is as yet unproved.

My CS background probably makes me overconfident in computers' abilities, but nothing I've said above is false.

See, it's my CS background that makes me more apt to favor the attacker than the defender. :P


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:14:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: preemting (none / 0)

see, this is why I shouldn't go around making assumptions about what people know and don't :)  

Quantum computers certainly have the potential to turn traditional cryptography on it's head, and you're right that the NSA is likely at the forefront of research in this field and will probably have one of the first that's more than a toy.  But it won't be long after that that everyone else has one and can use quantum cryptography.  I still think that the rest of the world will outpace governments in the end.

Re: P=NP, I have a truly marvelous proof which this comment box is too narrow to contain.  Plus, I prefer LaTeX.


by semiquaver on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:39:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: preemting (none / 0)

A proof that P=NP?  Woo.  You're soon to be a very rich man.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:41:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Interesting (none / 0)

Skype uses 256-bit Rijndael according to their knowledgebase.  So I stand corrected on that.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:42:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is honesty really so foreign to us? (none / 0)

  1. He still does.  I'm disappointed that he backed off his pledge to filibuster the bill if it contained immunity, but that's a weakening, not a flip.
  2. I'm not so sure I'd call encryption "unbreakable."  Given sufficient clock cycles and a reliable pattern-matcher to recognize when you've found the right key, you can brute-force any encrypted message.  And since the strength of an encryption scheme for realtime communication is practically limited by the power of the clients on either end, we're not talking strong encryption here.  I assure you the NSA has the means to crack anything they consider to be suspect.  The only defense that encryption provides is to increase the relative cost of monitoring your communication, which means you'll only be eavesdropped on if somebody really suspects you have something juicy to say.

I agree that transparent encryption will soon be included in all Internet applications, but I think it will be to prevent eavesdropping by criminals, criminal law enforcement, and/or competing business interests as much as it is to stop the NSA.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:45:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think you have misunderstood the FISA statute... (none / 0)

It does not prevent the govt from snooping on packets, and it does not require pre-authorization to do so.

It only requires that they (the feds) get the wiretaps approved by a FISA judge...after the fact!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:55:34 PM EST

Re: (none / 0)

but FISA only applies to traffic that enters or leaves this country.  It's alleged that the NSA was inspecting all packets that traveled through the various routers they had control over, regardless of whether they involved foreign communications.  

That's simply unacceptable, and it will now likely continue.  


by semiquaver on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 01:10:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Whether or not the NSA was eavesdroppin on you had nothing to do with the FISA extension.  The extension was about 2 things: telecom immunity, and the warrantless wiretapping.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:27:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

""warrantless wiretapping"

they weren't wiretapping, they were tracking who was talking to whom, not necessarily what they were saying.

It was all about patterns...


If you want Unity, nominate a Democrat
by rankles on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 07:11:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

That is unacceptable, but why do you think it will continue?

The bill in question specifically prohibits that, with the same safeguards as the older FISA legislation.

If the argument is that the NSA will ignore the law anyway, well that's probably true; but then what should Senator Obama do if we have no power to change the situation?


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:50:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I do think the NSA will likely continue to break the law, as long as they and telecoms are being provided legal cover.  

If this is true, pretty much the only thing Senator Obama can do to fix it is become President Obama :)


by semiquaver on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 08:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll drink to that. (none / 0)


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 09:24:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Cheers! (none / 0)


by semiquaver on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 10:21:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think you have misunderstood ... (none / 0)

I was not suggesting it prevents snooping on packets.  In fact, that's what it specifically allows.

The retroactive authorization is nothing new.  The only change from the previous version of FISA is that it's retroactive by up to 7 days rather than 3 days.  If the FISA judge rejects the surveillance after the fact, the proposed bill requires that the surveillance immediately cease, and disallows using any evidence that was gathered in a trial as poisoned fruit.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.