MyDD :: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed, probably

Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed, probably

by Reaper0Bot0, Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:16:40 AM EST

A diary like this needs a disclaimer, so lemme provide it:

I'm a Democrat. I'm gonna vote for Obama. I've already donated to his campaign five times. I also donated to Richardson and Dodd at various points. I'm very liberal on most issues, and proud to call myself a Democrat. I'm here to help get Democrats elected. Please nobody forget this in the following.

I like to read conservative columnists and bloggers, of a certain kind anyway. I read George Will, Peggy Noonan, Ross Douthat, Megan McCardle, David Brooks, Reihan Salam, and even Pat Buchanan from time to time (yes, he's outta his skull, but he does have an interesting point of view). There are others, from time to time. Why, might you ask?

Well you'll just have to read on, I guess....

An echo chamber is a scary thing. I know my own views, my own policy goals, my own hopes and dreams for the future of this country. However, if I stick only to those columnists and bloggers who say what I want to hear, well first off I'm not learning a damned thing. Secondly, I might lose an advantage I would glean from knowing what the other side is thinking and planning.

Heterodoxy is my watchword, frankly. If there's a good idea from the other side, why not consider it? Is there some alarm klaxon that goes off if I suggest to cut the corporate tax rate by five points while raising the income tax over a certain bracket? What happens if I agree with the notion that Affirmative Action, however well-intentioned, probably isn't the best idea at this point in time? What if I agree with the notion that abortion isn't a positive good and wished to hell and gone we had far fewer of them, all the while still believing that a woman should have an unfettered right to choose what to do?

Heterodoxy. MyDD has gotten pretty bad about this. This isn't even really about needing our standard bearer to move to the center (though he does). We need to accept the fact that our members, our allies, they won't always march in lockstep with the rest of us. Some of your issues may not be my issues, and vice versa.

Agreeing with a Republican every blue moon doesn't make you one yourself. We should try to be a little more open on policy, I think. Pragmatism is the only way to govern, considering the harsh problems we face, and the harsher times ahead.

Just keep an open mind. It makes us into better people. Besides, Peggy Noonan is a wordsmith, :).

Tags: Conservatives, Bloggers, Columnists (all tags)

Permalink :: 100 Comments :: Post a Comment

Tips? (2.00 / 16)

For open-mindedness. For Zion!

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:18:27 AM EST

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 5)

Dry land is not a myth, I have seen it!!!

Tipped and rec'd

And agreed.

Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!

by John in Chicago on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:44:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (1.50 / 2)

then perhaps it was not such a good idea for you and the folks you habitually up-rate and approve of to fling that particular poo at others perviously. sort of evicerates your diary don't you think?

by zerosumgame on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:59:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (1.75 / 4)

Ad hominem attacks are an awfully poor substitute for a substantial response to the content of a diary.

The future is unwritten

by Strummerson on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:12:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 1)

Tipped,
Recced,
and very much appreciated. I still listen to Rushbo occasionally. (But it hurts, my god how it hurts!)

TANSTAAFL

by Terminus on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:04:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 1)

Lately they just make me laugh my ass off. Really some of them are so ridiculous, limpbug especially.

The Moose is on the loose. "And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 04:58:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 2)

You are right - we must consider other peoples ideas, be they liberal, conservative, or whatever. I regularly read the Economist and I am reading Milton Friedmans's Capitalism and Freedom. We must constantly question our own ideas, so we don't fall into the the trap of "groupthink."

Jeremy Bentham sucks!!

by Forward with Feingold on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:05:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (none / 0)

I agree. The culture of MyDD makes it difficult though; the moment you sign in you've got sabateurs and trolls in your face. It puts your back up. It puts my back up anyway.

Because what exactly are we talking about here? Are we talking about having a variety fo opinions on the issues represented here? Well that would be nice, but first you have to have conversations on the issues period - I wrote a diary the other day about how there's almost nothing written about that isn't immediately filtered through a pro-Obama or pro-McCain lens.

Just as an example, a few months back there were several diaries concerning the feud that was taking place between SEIU and CNA. Two labor unions having a dispute. You COULD NOT TALK ABOUT IT - it was literally one substantive post for every 50 posts that decried SEIU's "thug tactis", compared them to bullying at the caucuses and how of course SEIU is corrupt because they endorsed Obama.

What's needed here is MORE issue diaries and less candidate diaries. I know, I'm part of the problem.

by MeganLocke on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:46:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's the problem. (none / 0)

I agree. The culture of MyDD makes it difficult though; the moment you sign in you've got sabateurs and trolls in your face. It puts your back up. It puts my back up anyway.

I used to get a lot of grief for my posts on various forums suggesting that we should build a wall along the border. I thought I had good reasons that had nothing to do with the Lou Dobbs-ish Mexican-hatred. I eventually learned it was better to not deal with that on blogs like this BECAUSE of Lou Dobbs. Anything I might say on the subject becomes contaminated by the simple fact that it always comes back to Lou Dobbs and his "zOMG Those Dirty Mexicans ARE Taking Over the World!" There is just no way to discuss the issue reasonably given that context. I accept that.

by Dumbo on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's the problem. (none / 0)

I could totally see that happening.

I'd have defended you, except that I have absolutely no opinion on immigration. Other than a strong belief that immigrants no matter what their status is should be given a high degree of protection. Because what drives wages down more than anything is the fact that you can subject undocumented workers to 1900's level working conditions.

But what to do before they get here I don't have an opinion.

by MeganLocke on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:59:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? (2.00 / 7)

Echo chamber? Echo chamber? Echo chamber? Echo chamber?

Not here. Not here. Not here. Not here. :) :) :) :)

Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.

by jsfox on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:22:26 AM EST

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed, probabl (2.00 / 6)

I think your fears are unfounded. It isn't difficult to detect sincerity in diary form. Anyone who writes a well thought out policy position diary is going to be taken seriously.

Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius

by Blue Neponset on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:32:38 AM EST

Wholeheartedly agree (2.00 / 6)

Which is why I find myself reading MyDD more than DKos. I enjoy nothing more than seeing a compelling argument for an opposing position.

It's the "compelling argument" part that sometimes trips me up. I have little patience for the type of logical fallacies that pass for 'debate' over su much of the Internet. Don't insult my intelligence, is all I ask, and I will consider almost anything.

by Neef on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:36:01 AM EST

Oh, and the obligatory strawman flame (2.00 / 2)

So you're saying that you'd like the place flooded with hate screeds and No Quarter trolls!?!

/snark

by Neef on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:39:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wholeheartedly agree (none / 0)

Kos just bores the hell out of me lately.

"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."

by vcalzone on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:52:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed, probabl (2.00 / 3)

Damn! Two rec's get you on the list!

Not that this diary shouldn't be, but wow.

John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country

by minnesotaryan on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:45:48 AM EST

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm (2.00 / 2)

Both of my diaries yesterday made the list, at the same time.

I wonder if I'm getting some kind of notice or profile here? Do people have some idea of who am I and what I believe? Or am I just some random dude.......

Thanks, by the way.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:47:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I wholeheartedly agree with your diary. (2.00 / 2)

In real life (offline, that is) we probably all have friends who are ideologically opposite to where we are. My oldest and dearest friend is a conservative evangelical Christian (a member of Bush's 25% I assume) while I am a liberal Atheist. Needless to say, we rarely talk politics but on the occasion that we do stick a toe in that water we are very respectful of each other when laying out our positions.

And that is the key -- respect. A disagreement becomes an argument when respect is lost.

That's not to say that honest dialogue is possible with everyone -- especially online, there are people who have something inflammatory to say and nothing else. TexasDarlin comes to mind. She was a hit and run poster who never once replied to any comment of mine, even when I tried to find common ground as a starting point.

That One is the Right One for 2008.

by GFORD on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wholeheartedly agree with your diary. (2.00 / 1)

very well said.

The Moose is on the loose. "And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:01:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm (none / 0)

Hmmmmm. Who is your alter ego? Heh.

The Moose is on the loose. "And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:00:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LOL U R troll (2.00 / 7)

Just kidding.

I actually like George Will. I disagree with him a lot, but I like the fact that he doesn't toe the Republican party line all the time. I don't get the urge to set him on fire like I do, say, Coulter or sometimes Brooks.

In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:51:30 AM EST

Re: LOL U R troll (none / 0)

Brooks can be frustrating, but at least he can turn a phrase from time to time.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Brooks (none / 0)

I found his "Republicans are saps" article to be well-written but completely disingenuous.

In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL U R troll (2.00 / 2)

I'm entertained by his "New Conservatives" article today. I think I've heard this story before, about the new young conservatives who are going to remake and renew the party and then everything will be just peachy....
I guess it could happen. Almost anything is possible.

I agree with your diary completely, BTW. Does that make me another echo in the chamber?

by GreenHills on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 04:42:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL U R troll (2.00 / 1)

Ross Douthat and Reihan Salam are both, frankly, full of win. They're great. Absolutely awesome.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 04:45:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL U R troll (2.00 / 2)

George Will is one of the only true Conservatives out there. Most of the Republican platform today isn't the least bit Conservative. It actually resembles right-wing Socialism much more than true Conservatism.

by the mollusk on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:47:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ideas (2.00 / 9)

No one is going to agree in every respect with what is considered to be the generally accepted stance. I personally have always been a gun proponent and I am very much against illegal immigration with some ideas that probably are not generally accepted.

Firstly, I don't feel the need to show my ass on all of my differing beliefs unless the subject comes up and secondly, it all depends on how your side is presented. If I was to say:

"Illegal aliens are ruining this country and they should all be sent back home!"

I would get flamed for making statements that aren't supported and use rightwing frames, but if I was to say:

"As a populist, I believe that illegal immigration drives down wages for the most vulnerable Americans and as such I believe the immigration laws already on the books should be fully enforced."

In this case I would probably not get very many flames because I have supported my position, shown, at least in part, my reasoning and not used rightwing frames.

accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking

by Sychotic1 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:54:21 AM EST

but as befitting a propaganda outfit (none / 0)

... this site would troll-rate you into oblivion for Either using right wing frames (regardless of validity) OR suggesting things counter to the mission of the website (I'll note that one notorious kozzack does not post his rants on why people should choose the party affiliation of Republican on DailyKos. Wise Move)

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:22:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trollodoxy (1.33 / 3)

A request to Hillary's loyal supporters at MyDD:

I think the time has finally come for you to reach out and explain in more complete detail just how unfair it was for Hillary to lose the primary election, how the DNC sabotaged her campaign and immorally applied the rules to prevent her victory. I'm still not clear on the details about the misogyny of Obama's supporters - I need to hear more about that. Most importantly, I need more persuasion before I can begin to let go of my Hillary hate - please remind me some more (much more, please!) about the conditions prerequisite for you to vote for the Democratic candidate in November. I need further explanation and clarification. Please break your silence! I just can't stand it when I'm given the silent treatment.

by xdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:55:16 AM EST

Re: Trollodoxy (2.00 / 4)

WTF?

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:58:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trollodoxy (2.00 / 1)

I need more information about what has Hillary's supporters so upset that they are considering casting a vote for McCain. We don't get enough diaries about this. I read on the internets how the disrespect inflicted on 18 million voters will almost certainly sink Obama's chances, and I just need more information so I can understand it. I wish a few of those 18 million would grace MyDD with diaries on the subject, that's all. Please open up and tell me how you really feel.

by xdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:04:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Trollodoxy (2.00 / 1)

Then write your own diary about that. This has absolutely nothing to do with my topic.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:06:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Uh, Reaper... (2.00 / 1)

It's snark. Not great snark, but snark.

In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:10:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uh, Reaper... (2.00 / 2)

I actually agree with you. Echo chambers are boring and politics is the art of compromise. Automatically slamming reasonable alternative viewpoints is Rovian, and hence fascistic.

I do think it is legitimate, however, to cut short repetitive interruptions by idiots - just like you did to me.

Bravo.

by xdem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:23:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy (2.00 / 9)

when i was in college, i had a philosophy professor who gave extra credit if you brought in editorials or letters to the editor and explained the logical fallacies found within. i had, like, a bajillion percent in that class...

i just love reading other people's opinions. i love taking each argument apart and determining whether or not it has merit. it's a fun little game. like if the funny pages and the crossword puzzle had a baby...

ultimately, i think it is important for all progressives to step out of their "echo chambers" if for no other reason than to make sure the beliefs they hold are correct, and held for the right reasons...

by elie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:20:01 AM EST

this professor, I could use..; (2.00 / 1)

philosophy class is hard when you have to write those essays. oy, those essays!

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My Philosophy prof was born-again (2.00 / 1)

as was much of the class (in SC). I was the only non-theist(at least who spoke) in a class of 70, and got in endless debates with the prof who would spend whole classes "proving" God existed.

The fact that he did not welcome dissenting opinion just made me bring up more of them... ;-)

Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging

by chrisblask on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:34:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Heterodoxy (2.00 / 9)

I love this diary. I read commentary from many different sources. Not always leaning toward my own personal beliefs. More than once I've learned something that I didn't expect.
Thanks

by needtoknow on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:27:07 AM EST

Re: Heterodoxy (2.00 / 6)

I wish I could rec this fifty times. Heterodoxy is essential. I generally read more pundits on the right than on the left--what's the use in reaffirming what you believe already?

It's all too easy and common on the Tubes to seek out voices that affirm your beliefs, and to tune out those that don't. Witness how the His44 people brag about how they don't read MyDD or Kos or HuffPo or RealClear, they don't watch any tv, they don't read any newspapers--nothing from outside the bubble. The same shit happens on the right. And it happens here, obviously in a broader, less-insane way.

We have to listen to what Republicans and conservatives are saying. They're half the country! And their arguments clarify ours in response.

Rec'd and tipped.

What is The October Protocol?

by Koan on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:41:41 AM EST

Re: Heterodoxy (2.00 / 2)

Really well said

The Moose is on the loose. "And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:06:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed, probabl (2.00 / 5)

Rec'd.

I have redstate and townhall in my rss feeds. I also visit hillis44 and no25cents once in awhile to see what they are up to. I read Will, and agree with you about him, I also read Brooks and Krauthammer. The latter I read to get a feel for what the hardcore neo-cons are pushing. The guy disgusts me, but I think it's more important to know just where they are coming from in order to counter them.

I fall in the left-libertarian quadrant. A tiny bit left of Kucinich and a little more libertarian than Nader. The funny thing is that I also have some issues where I fall in the conservative camp. Only a couple, probably the same two you mentioned, gun control and immigration. I don't think you should be able to buy howitzers nor do I believe we should round up 20 million illegals and deport them. But, I'd bet few people would think I was a progressive based solely on those two issues.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:25:45 PM EST

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna (2.00 / 3)

I have no particular animus towards you for those views. I would say that there are a lot of problems with "rounding up and deporting" that many people. There absolutely must be a process by which one who claims to be here legally can contest the deportation. With so many illegals here, that would take time.

Put another way, I do not, I absolutely do not trust the executive branch all by itself in determining who stays and who goes. Since there must be process, it will bog the whole thing down. That doesn't mean we do nothing, mind you, but it does complicate it considerably.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:29:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna (2.00 / 1)

I don't want to side-track your diary with a discussion on this issue, but I can't help making a couple of observations about it.

Immigration is not a simple issue. The right would like us to think it is very simple. Get rid of them all and seal the border. How do you get rid of them all when some of them are women and children. Do you tear families apart? My God, the right was up in arms about Elianan Gonzalez. We're talking about millions of children here.

Something needs to be done, though. I live in the Memphis area. We have a large, probably mostly illegal, Hispanic community. They dominate the lawn care business. Yet, like most urban areas, we have a large unemployment problem in the young black male community. How do we deal with the second one if illegals are taking most of the jobs those young black males would normally do?

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

To be fair.... (2.00 / 3)

I don't believe you can lump the "right" together on this issue, just like I don't believe that you can lump the "left" together on this issue. There are many conservatives that actually support immigration and want to make undocumented workers legal workers. McCain and Bush want to, although they do pander to to the immigration extremists by throwing them a bone now and then.

That being said, something needs to be done in reference to the immigration problem. Legalize those who are here illegally, toughen up on the boarder, penalize employers...We need to act; we cannot continue on this path without addressing this issue.

by soyousay on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:29:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To be fair.... (2.00 / 3)

I believe the immigration extremists tend to be on the right. I should rephrase that. The immigration extremists who want to throw every illegal either out of the country or in prison are mostly on the right. The immigration extremists who want completely open borders are generally found on the left. There are almost always two extremes on every issue.

Mojo'd Isn't it great to have an intelligent discussion about the issues without insults being thrown around?

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:44:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To be fair.... (2.00 / 2)

Isn't it great to have an intelligent discussion about the issues without insults being thrown around?

Absolutely!

by soyousay on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:32:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Speaking of heterodoxy, once in a blue moon (2.00 / 2)

my partner and I force ourselves to go to a straight bar just to watch the testosterone induced antics out on the sidewalk after closing time. It reminds us why we enjoy being gay.

Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.

by Rumarhazzit on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:36:19 PM EST

Re: Speaking of heterodoxy, once in a blue moon (2.00 / 1)

My fiancee and I used to go to gay bars with several of our gay friends. We would have a blast, mainly for the same reason you and your friends enjoy seeing the antics at a hetero bar.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:47:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed (none / 0)

This is a political partisan blog. While a certain amount of differing view points is allowed on this blog, there are also boundries to keep this mainly a site for progressives and democrats.

Dizzy Zzyzzy

by Zzyzzy on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:45:22 PM EST

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed (2.00 / 2)

I think what the diarist is saying is that you don't need to be 100% in lock-step on every issue in order to be a Progressive Democrat. In fact, I think being in lock-step is pretty much the antithesis of Progressive Democracy, not to mention the blogosphere.

by the mollusk on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:50:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed (2.00 / 2)

Of course it is.

That doesn't mean that what it means to be a progressive Democrat cannot change over time, though. We cannot be blind to the world around us. Some of our core positions may be imperfect. Simply trying to find more effective ways to sell them in no way corrects underlying deficiencies.

For example, it is possible to tax a society to death. There's an upper limit. Little things like that, you know.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Taxes aren't too high (2.00 / 1)

and most of our core positions are a result of ethics such as "fairness and equality." Hypothetically, we are progressive because we are willing to give up some economic efficiency for helping those in need (although the evidence is weak that redistribution of income comes at the expense of economic growth and efficiency) Changing these core values would no longer make you a progressive.

Dizzy Zzyzzy

by Zzyzzy on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:25:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I fundamentally disagree with each of these (none / 0)

points.

Which level to set which taxes at to provide maximum resources with which to address social goals is an extremely difficult matter, and there is copious incontrivertible proof (not just evidence) that improper redistribution of income absolutely does come at the expense of economic growth and efficiency.

The correct recipes of taxes foster economic growth and therefore allow non-govermental relief from economic hardship, creating good-paying jobs and entreprenurial opportunites that allow people to avoid needing any social assistance in the first place.

Improper recipes for redistribution of wealth absolutely destroy a societies economic growth and efficiency, as the entire Communist Bloc experiment has proven manifestly. Even the efforts in Democratic countries such as the UK have shown without any doubt whatsoever the damage that blindly redistributing wealth does to economic growth and efficiency ("That's one for you nineteen for me...").

-chris

Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging

by chrisblask on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Abortion and Choice (2.00 / 2)

I absolutely agree that considering a variety of opinions is essential. Staying within an ideological comfort zone is ethically crippling and - just as important - terribly boring. But I would like to qualify that the attitude toward abortion and reproductive choice you outline above is far from heterodox. I would argue that this is the dominant sentiment of pro-choice citizens.

The future is unwritten

by Strummerson on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:16:45 PM EST

Re: Abortion and Choice (2.00 / 3)

Well, to add a bit of controversy:

I believe that (potential) fathers deserve more rights in this process than they have. I do not suggest that they should decide what happens (I emphatically don't believe that), but I do think that (short some risk of bodily harm or similar risk) the father should be informed and consulted.

We rightly complain about so many absent fathers. Well, if we want responsible fathers one of the things I think we need to do is stop treating them like disposable sperm machines, as pertains to abortion.

Sure, tons of guys are irresponsible dirtbags who won't hesitate to bail if they've fathered a child. However, for those who care about what they've done and want to do right by their partner and their prospective children.

Men should be subordinate in this process, but they deserve to have a right to be informed and consulted.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Abortion and Choice (2.00 / 1)

Fair enough. But the central question here is whether this should be effected through legislative means.

I am all for father and spousal and parental involvement. I just don't think it should happen by force of law, because that prevents exceptions where women are in fact endangered. This is exactly why O'Connor opposed spousal notification. Yes, they should be family decisions. But laws address comprehensive generalities, exposing women in extreme and unfortunate situations to risk. So I say no.

The future is unwritten

by Strummerson on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Abortion and Choice (2.00 / 1)

I actually agree with you that it cannot be legislated, but our leaders can speak to these issues.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:25:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

men do have a choice (none / 0)

this men "deserve to have a right to be informed and consulted" stuff is just bullshit.

men do a have a choice, they can choose to sleep with women they trust to make this and other decisions or they can chooose to sleep with whoever makes their dick hard.
if they choose the latter, and then want to fucking whine about the WOMAN WHO IS PREGNANT making a choice they disagree with, then fuck them (and all people who want to diminish a WOMAN's right to choose).

real men know that if they trust the women they are sleeping with, the decision is in the right hands, the woman's, EXCLUSIVELY.

if you fuck people you don't trust, you have no right to whine later when they make a decision about THEIR BODY that you disagree with.

what part of IT'S HER BODY do you not understand?

the time to rise has been engaged.

by catchaz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: men do have a choice (none / 0)

What part of "you didn't create that life by yourself and I might have an opinion about it's future" do you not understand?

You want men to behave like responsible adults? Tell them what they've done. Give them a chance to own up to it and do the right thing, if the partner is amenable.

The choice should be long to the woman. I did not say otherwise. But writing the man out of it entirely is simply not right.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:25:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: men do have a choice (2.00 / 1)

I think you both have good points, but Catchaz is right.

It would be nice to include and consult with the father, but how do you legislate that? Either you force women to do it, and if you do you're invariably going to be putting people in dangerous and untenable situations, or you don't. You can't - once the law is introduced it creates two problems - one, there are going to be situations where informing and consulting the father are just not feasible, wise, or appropriate, and two - and more importantly - you'd be creating a principle whereby the law has established that women don't have complete control on who they keep in their lives.

It's like there's no law against being a shitty husband, because if there was.... etc.

by MeganLocke on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I find this sort of attitude incredibly (2.00 / 2)

offensive, and depressingly common. Reaper was very clear that he (she?) fully respects the fact that only one of the parents of a child actually has to carry the baby, and that this obviously makes that parent the dominant force in the decision about carrying that embryo to term. I agree.

We could clarify this discussion by pursuing the coming option of removing that fetus from the mother's body and allowing it to gestate in either an artificial womb or the father's body. Both of these options will be viable in coming years. This removes the matter of whose body is tied up for nine months carrying the fetus and brings the issue back to parental rights and responsibilities. This will be a reality, likely before long, and it will turn this debate on its head.

But given your vile words I don't want to let you off that easy. So let me focus on my own story, instead.

I was 17 when my recently ex-girlfriend called and told me "I wanted to let you know that I just had an abortion". We said a few more words, I expressed my support, and then we hung up. I sat alone all that night, alternately stunned, sobbing or staring silently into space. My complex emotions on that topic are something that I have never been able to properly address since, and never verbalize with another human's company until discussing it with my wife more than a decade later. Asking me to "forget about it" is, as Reaper says, akin to asking me to disregard my parental responsibilities, even more, my humanity. While there is no (or vanishingly little) chance that I would have disagreed with her choice of not becoming teenage parents, not having the chance to go through the process of considering the implications before the decision was made, not able to talk to any single person after the fact - to silently wander off with a stone face and never address my own emotions - lingers with me to this day. I am not permitted to have the same thoughts in my life women are allowed, to cry on someone else's shoulder, to remember and ponder thoughts like ("s/he would be 26 this year.."). Because I was a boy, it is something I should just keep my mouth shut about. Not "whine" about, but simply buck up and move on.

But from your attitude you don't care about any of that. You don't care about the child I was, or the other male children out there staggering off silently with the confused looks on their faces. You would, from the way you speak, likely fail to understand that boy children are just as much human as female children.

And before you reply with more foul-mouthed slander, more shouting vitriol on the inability of any man to care, of any boy to have the complex emotional life of any girl, of every male being driven by their mindless genitals: she and I lived together for three months (god, it seemed longer than that). I loved her. She took my virginity, I did not take hers. But in your view this all makes me less of a "real man" I imagine - a hard and cold and pigish man, like we all are meant to be. So it must either be all lies or simply show my flaws, my inability to live up to the model of manhood you would have me don like a cloak of ashes. Boys can't feel, can't be parents - we are just swinging falluses set loose on an unsuspecting world, and I suppose I should just clam up and have a beer and watch me some football on the couch, and silently brood.

Am I allowed to feel, now, ma'am?

-chris

Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging

by chrisblask on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I find this sort of attitude incredibly (2.00 / 2)

I've been careful to avoid having this issue come up in my own life, but I have seen it happen in others. I am an honorable man and while I can be irresponsible in my own life, I simply could not abrogate my own responsibilities for another life I had created.

This is less about legislation than it is about morality. Men are to blame for the fact that so many fathers are absent, but women have been complicit in the margins and along the fringes.

Our actions have to have consequences. If I knock up a girl I should have to know that. I should have to deal with that. I should have to experience that pain of knowing what have helped to create, and if circumstances demand it, that I have helped to create only to have to watch it end.

It's madness, frankly, to think that a man is incapable of trauma from this. It's a shitty thing to say, especially given the reason why feminists took up this issue. They were defending their own humanity.

Don't take it so far that you deny the humanity of another.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is no legislative answer to this (2.00 / 2)

dilemna. In common biology only women get pregant. The circumstances can include men who can only logically be discounted from having any rights (rape, abuse), and due to the nature of the act that leads to pregnancy there is virtually no way to distiniguish the marginal (he said, she said) cases from the obvious ones. The only viable approach is to leave the legal choice in the woman's hands.

But the virulent attitude of the poster I responded to, that is the moral gap that has unfortunately been fostered by many in the process of reversing the historical imbalance in favor of the wishes of men.

Should this immoral dictation of women have been redressed? Absolutely. Are violently sexist attitudes like those expressed by the original poster a tragic pendulum swing too far, fostering an entirely new set of tremendous problems? Absolutely.

As a parent with both male and female children, I fully understand the necessity of protecting my daughters' rights, but I fervently hope they are not influenced by anyone voicing dismissive sexist bile like that exhibited above. For my son I hope the women in his life, also, are more sensitive to the realities of his humanity than what has lead to this sub-thread.

We can lose the battle for a woman's reproductive rights very simply by allowing Roe v. Wade to be overturned. But we can win that battle and lose our sons - and fathers - by allowing attitudes like that above to be acceptable.

Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging

by chrisblask on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:58:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Recced (2.00 / 5)

This is a song We need to sing until we hum it subconsciously. "We" because I don't mean any one group.

I have said to the point many are no doubt tired of hearing it:

- I grew up extremely Liberal, which means I know the strengths and weaknesses like family.
- I went Conservative in my thirties towards the Libertarian camp. The Freedom of much Applied Liberal-ness began to feel like Forced Correctness and conformity (Canadian Liberalism enforced that view).
- Now I support Obama for President, but it in no way means that I have re-signed the Far Left Pledge or abandoned my complex views (contrary to the UMA "koolaid" chanters).

We need more than party unity, we need national unity. With that in hand, we can work on global unity. None of these mean agreeing on everything, nor do they mean not fighting like cats and dogs over how we achieve the betterment of the species - they just mean opening our damn ears and our damn minds and considering that we might be wrong from time to time.

-chris

Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging

by chrisblask on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:53:50 PM EST

Weird to hear you say that (2.00 / 2)

because I find myself drifting toward a Liberal for Liberty identity, which I suspect is somewhat libertarian.

For example, housing codes that prevent people from installing their own wind turbines to cut down on power bills. Or planting vegetable gardens in their front yards. But it's more than that - doctors are demoralized because they're so weighed down by paperwork, as are many teachers.

by catfish2 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:56:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Weird to hear you say that (2.00 / 2)

and social workers. Pay someone that much to spend 50% of their time on paperwork, insanity.

The Moose is on the loose. "And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Weird to hear you say that (2.00 / 2)

It's a funny world, eh? I would be interested in hearing where you did think I came down on the political spectrum.

My first post of any kind in this election cycle explains some of my evolution in politics. As I say in the first line:

It is interesting that I am here at all.

My views of politics stray towards the Libertarian "let people make their own minds up" as a First Principle. Much of Liberalism seem(s/ed) to me to have become: "people are fundamentally bad, greedy, foolish and mean, and must be compelled to behave properly". I trace this to the rage-against-the-machine activity of my elder Boomer peers (I am the Youngest Boomer), who started with "People Should Be Free!" and ended with "...and we will force them to be when we get power!"

As I have said, my support for Sen. Obama is not because he will push the agenda of his (our) elder Boomer liberal-activist peers in the way that (I believe) has become common, if not cliche. It is more that like myself, he seems to understand the fundamental truths to that agenda, as well as the fundamental flaws with it. I may be wrong, but a great deal of what he says and does resonates with the "not at any cost" view that I have come to see as the way to advance Liberal goals.

The Conservative (and/or Libertarian) views of independence of individuals - really the trust in individuals to make the right choices, most of the time - is what apeals to me on the "right". This is the core thread of the non-monarchist (aka Democratic) movement that has both flourished and been trampled in each stage since the French Revolution, that flourished again with the founding of this country, and has been alternately trampled by parties on the Left and Right as they lose focus of it.

I would be interested in hearing your views of "Liberals for Liberty". I like the sound of it, and a google takes me to the Liberty Lounge (where I now have an account).

Interesting discussion, thanks. And mojo from cameoanne as well, wonders may well never cease! ;-)

-chris

Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging

by chrisblask on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:22:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Now that's what I'm talking about (2.00 / 3)

I really enjoy freedom of expression.

I recommended your diary; it's inclusive.

by soyousay on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:12:34 PM EST

peggy noonan is a flaming pile of shit (none / 0)

Paggy Noonan is a wordsmith?!?! give me a fucking break.
the Nazis had some very eloquent propagandists, Noonan is no different, and certainly no better than they were.
her eloquence is what mkaes her so dangerous.she can artfully and "beautifully" explain to us why it's no sin to let the poor starve, and that hunger is a great "motivator".

the time to rise has been engaged.

by catchaz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:20:41 PM EST

Sometimes she's good, other times (none / 0)

she's from another planet.

by catfish2 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:57:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sometimes she's good, other times (none / 0)

When she's good it's by accident.

by MeganLocke on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: peggy noonan is a flaming pile of shit (2.00 / 1)

I agree that Noonan is a FPofS. I also agree, grumpily, that she is a wordsmith, as is Will and as was Buckly. That is why we take them seriously. They are like that very dangerous snapping turtle or rattlesnake.

The Moose is on the loose. "And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:32:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed, probabl (2.00 / 1)

by rankles on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:31:26 PM EST

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna (2.00 / 6)

I reject and denounce your endorsement.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:34:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna (2.00 / 1)

That comment deserved a winking smiley. Seems your diary brought out the agreement of more folks on opposite extremes than I would have thought possible, so I'm willing to take rankles' rec at face value this time.

Wait for it......

Mojo for rankles.

-chris

Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging

by chrisblask on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:51:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna (none / 0)

I just, you know, liked the diary.

THx for the mojo.

If you want Unity, nominate a Democrat

by rankles on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:01:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed, probabl (2.00 / 2)

Hear hear!

I had a post deleted from Talkleft in which I noted that Obama had paraded his children out in the immediate aftermath of the Rev Wright fiasco but had not done so prior to that since Iowa (certainly seemed to me to be political pandering).

AS I said, the post was banned. I wrote and asked why. I had not attacked anyone, I had not used any foul language.

Jeralyn responded by telling me they don't tolerate any information from right-wing sources.

I wrote back suggesting exactly as you do here but also told her that in fact my source was an Obama campaign official, and I provided a link to her proving it.

In my opinion, the left got the Rev. Wright situation all wrong and the right immediately grasped why it was such a problem for Obama. Left wingers simply would not hear this, which is to their detriment. Denail, ignoring reality and rationalizing things away works in the short term but not in the long term.

Best know your enemy and give them credence where it is due. May save yourself in the process!

by Juno on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:34:09 PM EST

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna (2.00 / 2)

Not exactly. Learning about their policies is fine. Parroting their smears and attacks is not at all what I meant.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:35:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna (2.00 / 1)

You missed my point.

In a knee jerk reaction, they just assumed it came from a right-wing source, didn't bother to ask for the source, and just banned a post by assuming something that was false.

Would they have banned it had I noted that the source was an Obama official? I doubt it.

I don't think the left can blather on about tolerance and unity and all this while making blanket judgments in an ignorant manner and making a decision to ban not based on the content but on the source, whether it is a left-wing source or a right-wing source. So that does go to what you say in your diary here.

One source of self-knowledge is in fact to listen to your critics. And noting that Obama hadn't broght his children out since Iowa but just happened to do so when the heat was on and he was in political trouble is not a smear. It was in fact a fact. What talkleft didn't like what nothing more than they thought the criticism originated from a right winger.

I cannot STAND Charles Krauthammer, but I think he's correct in his column today. The CONTENT I think is correct, his being a snake notwithstanding, and his own hypocrisy as to how the press allowed Bush to get away with bullshitting us too.

by Juno on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Man, this dary is freaking me out! (2.00 / 1)

Now I have to agree with Juno!! AHH!!!

These are the most reasonable statements I have ever seen you make. Thank you. Absolutely right, we need to be very careful not to censor ourselves out of productive conversations lest we become hothouse flowers that collapse under the first windy day in the Real World.

Ironically, I have to simultaneously have a good thought about Jeralyn for atypically stepping in and removing what she saw as an Obama slam, even if was only because she incorrectly thought the source was something she didn't approve of. I don't think she should take that view (but it's her site, and her right), but slamming Obama is the one sin that TalkLeft usually encourages.

-chris

Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging

by chrisblask on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:47:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Man, this dary is freaking me out! (none / 0)

I, too, assumed when I was a younger man that the left was the home of open discussion and free expression.

The older I get, the less I believe that.

If you want Unity, nominate a Democrat

by rankles on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:03:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

pov (2.00 / 4)

different and diverse points of view, are absloutely essential for progress. otherwise we are stuck in gridlock or lockstep.

I find i learn alot more if i diagree with someone's point of view. you learn the other side and then you reinforce or change your perspective. its actually helpful.

[its been really echo chmaber-y around here lately, and concern troll-y; so i either find myself agreeing with a diary but not really having much to say 'cause nothing new was presented to me, or confused cause im not sure wether a concern troll is being a troll or genuine]

by alyssa chaos on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:51:00 PM EST

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed, probabl (none / 0)

No problem with the premise, but I wish Obama would have compromised somewhere besides the 4th Amendment.

I support him. I'll vote for him. But I am profoundly disappointed. I'll get over it.

by Drummond on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:54:32 PM EST

Rec'd (none / 0)

Best diary I've read in ... days.

by catfish2 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:39:16 PM EST

Re: Heterodoxy (2.00 / 2)

Reaper0bot0!

What an awesome diary! I am actually writing something similar, with my own bent. Are you my political soulmate? ;D. I really enjoy the way you think and write. Thank you.

The Moose is on the loose. "And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:44:19 PM EST

I think that's our damn problem! (2.00 / 4)

The Right has pushed Progressives into an ideological corner on every polarizing issue, drawing us into side debates on gay marriage, gun control, abortion, flag burning that don't necessarily clearly define Progressive and Conservative thought.

I have no particularly powerful opinion on gay marraige other than just let them get married already. I have mixed views on gun control. I would like to see fewer abortions and nothing past the first trimester. I think you should be able to burn a flag, but I also don't get all fluffed up about religious displays in government buildings.

the real defining issues surround the distribution of wealth in this country, equal access to healthcare, education, housing and opportunity. Peace. A clean environment. Conservation of resources. Fair application of the law.

No wonder Conservatives want to fuss around with their peas so we don't talk too much about the meat and potatoes. They have lost their footing on those differences that once earned them strong widespread support -- fiscal responsibility, lower taxes, non-intervention abroad, small government. They now represent anything but.

Sexism is real.

by grassrootsorganizer on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:53:50 PM EST

They've lost their peas but (2.00 / 1)

right when it should be our time I see a lack of cohesive theme on the left. It's missing a foreign policy theme. It's still a laundry list.

Remember John Kerry's theme? It was healthcare, jobs, a clean environment, and bringing home the troops. That's not a theme!! That's a list!

by catfish2 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 04:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oops - meant they've lost their footing (none / 0)

not lost their peas.

by catfish2 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 04:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops - meant they've lost their footing (2.00 / 1)

heh,heh and an axcellent point Catfish

The Moose is on the loose. "And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 04:03:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed (this is becoming a trend - stop (2.00 / 1)

being reasonable, you're freaking me out! ;-)

My first step to support the Dems this year was macro-pragmatic (both an anti-current-Repub vote, and a Time for Change vote), which was before I believed Obama was viable.

What made me enthusiastic was seeing someone I could imagine creating some Actionable Agendas out of the Liberal Laundry List.

Save the Whales has long been my conversational strawman example of naively-policied Liberal goals when discussing the woes of the Left. I would say "If you want to Save the Whales, you have to have an economy that allows you to buy the ships, fuel oil and provisions. You have to have a foreign policy that groks the social and economic drivers that cause countries to sail their whaling ships, and engages them appropriately." Save the Pandas also doesn't work when the economy truly collapses - if the last breeding pair walks by where I am camped out with my starving children, we're having steak for dinner. Anti-business approaches fail all liberal goals, because it is the very same Capitalist Globalist Economy that the left often rails against that creates the wealth (Capital) that feeds people and lets Green Peace sail their ships.

Too much of the liberal agenda has seemed to be based on "because we should" instead of "here's how we do this."

Obama strikes me as enough of a pedantic egghead to force folks to plod through the less-appealing steps to achieve the age-old liberal goals, and enough of a motivator to get the various teams required on the move to complete some of them.

-chris

Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging

by chrisblask on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:37:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that's our damn problem! (none / 0)

Very nicely said.

The Moose is on the loose. "And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 04:01:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed, probabl (2.00 / 1)

I'm a lurker over at FreeRepublic for the reasons that you describe. I want to make sure I'm not missing any stories that might challenge my worldview, inform my stances, or threaten my party.

I just wish there were more thoughtful comments there. Anyone concerned with the quality of dialog in the left blogosphere should spend some time there. Its like it doesn't occur to people that a thoughtful response is possible, let alone desirable.

by GreenHills on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 04:49:31 PM EST

People like Noonan and Brooks especially (2.00 / 1)

can make solid, interesting points. Then the next day they write some vile poorly-reaserched koolaidish rightwing douchebag piece and make me hate them even more. I've swarn off reading Brooks several times now. Same goes for Bob Novak, although his extra partisanship is moderated by the fact that he does more homework.

Yes, I hate echo chambers too. I'm with Greenwald in the Olbermann spat. The Dean-Olbermann fallacy in their line of thinking that they'd rather a president Obama going after the Telcos criminally than a junior Senator casting protest votes jumps to the conclusion that taking the principled stance can cost him the election. But I'm open to having my perceptions challenged.

by corph on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:13:56 PM EST

Re: Heterodoxy - Why I'm Gonna Get Flamed (2.00 / 1)

Peggy Noonan is an OLD, Right Wing, Whore! TR away....

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:20:37 PM EST

Hmm (2.00 / 2)

I suppose the dissenting blogs you read give away something about who you are as a person. I try to keep up on Volokh Conspiracy and a military site called BlackFive. I'll also take a look at Weekly Standard as well for the same reasons other list.

"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."

by vcalzone on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:54:01 AM EST

Re: Heterodoxy (none / 0)

Intellectual honesty is only possible when someone seeks out discerning points of view. Unilaterally dismissing any argument or fact that disagrees with your world view is what Cheney and Bush do and it's a very foolish practice. Discerning ideas and points of view allow for better and more nuanced
understanding of issues.

It is okay to defend someone's free speech when you vehemently oppose what they are saying.

It is okay to support a woman's right to choose while deeply regretting the life that will never be.

It is okay to speak out against racism and wish that the African American community would get it's act together and quit blaming white people for all of their problems.

If you oppose affirmative action you are not automatically racist or sexist.

If you have deeply religious convictions about marriage you are not automatically a homophobe.

by celtic pride on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:13:30 PM EST

You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.