Senator Obama's Statement on the Heller Decision (and my thoughts)

Senator Obama has released a statement in reaction to the Heller decision which overturned the Washington, DC ban on handguns along with requirements that all weapons be stored unloaded and with safety locks.

I'll provide the statement, and then I'd like to go into some Constitutional analysis.  Frankly I've seen far too many people here inject policy arguments into Constitutional debates.  I cannot stress enough how wrongheaded I consider this to be.

As for the statement itself, I could not agree with Senator Obama more than I already do.  His position mirrors the one I've held for years, and reinforces my approval of his overall temperment.

Read more for the statement and my analysis....

---------------------------------------- -----------------------
"I have always believed that the Second Amendment protects the right of individuals to bear arms, but I also identify with the need for crime-ravaged communities to save their children from the violence that plagues our streets through common-sense, effective safety measures. The Supreme Court has now endorsed that view, and while it ruled that the D.C. gun ban went too far, Justice Scalia himself acknowledged that this right is not absolute and subject to reasonable regulations enacted by local communities to keep their streets safe. Today's ruling, the first clear statement on this issue in 127 years, will provide much-needed guidance to local jurisdictions across the country.
"As President, I will uphold the constitutional rights of law-abiding gun-owners, hunters, and sportsmen. I know that what works in Chicago may not work in Cheyenne. We can work together to enact common-sense laws, like closing the gun show loophole and improving our background check system, so that guns do not fall into the hands of terrorists or criminals. Today's decision reinforces that if we act responsibly, we can both protect the constitutional right to bear arms and keep our communities and our children safe."
---------------------------------------- ------------------------

He's right.  We can all probably agree that the wording of the 2nd Amendment is about as anachronistic (if not obtuse) as anything else in the Constitution.  It reads:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Okay, let's try to break this into modern English.  First up, the Framers specified a reason for the Amendment.  They state that for the country to be secure and free there needs to be a well-regulated militia.  At this point I don't know if we have, or could possibly have, an equivalent to the militias of the 1770's and 1780's.  The fundamental relationship between citizen and government has changed.

The second portion states that the citizens have a right to keep and bear arms and that (by direct inference) the government shall not infringe upon that right.  The whole debate here (regarding the DC handgun ban) is how the first portion of the Amendment relates to the second portion.  Is it causal?  Or is it background?

I'm not alone in concluding that the first provision is simply providing background, not an exclusive justification for the second provision.  Back when this Constitution was drafted the citizens ran any number of risks that are either absent today or attenuated.  The British might invade again from Canada.  Indians might attack your farm.  You might have someone try to rob you.  There were a lot of dangers.

If the Framers had meant for the right to keep and bear arms to be circumscribed within the context of a well-regulated militia they would have worded the Amendment something like this:

The security and freedom of the state requires a well-regulated militia.  To properly equip that militia the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

It doesn't read that way.  The first provision really just seems to give some idea as to their frame of mind.  

Now, infringing on one's rights means denying them, or substantially diminishing those rights.  Regulating firearms, or how one procures them, or how one stores them, these are all debatable issues.  All of your rights are circumscribed by regulations.  The purpose of the courts is to see to it that the legislature does not cross the line between regulation and infringement.

Let me repeat that!  The purpose of the courts (in this context) is to prevent the government from infringing on your rights.  If the Supreme Court rules, as it did, that the Constitution provides an individual right to keep and bear arms then frankly the analysis becomes reasonably simple.  Does the legislation infringe on this right?  What's the purpose of the right?  How does the restriction effect one's ability to enjoy that right?

If the right to keep and bear arms was limited to hunting and militias then frankly a handgun ban would make more sense.  However, self-defense was as much an issue in the 1700's as it is now.  This was a forseeable application written in an era where it wasn't unheard of for national politicians to duel.

As to the Supreme Court striking down the safety locks regulation?  They decided that, within the confines of this 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms, it should be up to the citizen to decide if it makes sense to use them or not.  Personally, I would think any parent of young children would be out of his or her skull not to use safety locks, but then again every individual has his or her own individual circumstances to deal with.

We have to be adults, I think, and respect the fact that other people may assess risk differently from how we do.  That isn't really part of my Constitutional analysis, but I do want to get this out there.

I can see, however, where this portion of the opinion will be more controversial hereabouts.

I also want to point out that even Justice Scalia concedes in the opinion that regulations are not unConstitutional.  The opinion does not provide a bright-line rule or obvious test to determine which ones are Constitutional, but even the majority concedes the point.

To bring it home, gang, let me say this.  The purpose of the Constitution is not to make laws us liberals like.  The purpose of the Constitution is to protect the liberty of the citizenry by limiting the powers of the government.  With the exception of prohibition and its repeal, not one provision of the Constitution exists to tell us what we can and cannot do (fine, other than eligibility requirements to run for office, :)).  The Constitution serves to provide limits on the powers of the government.  If we do not like those limits, if we want a law that is outside of them to pass and enforce, then we should seek to amend the Constitution.

Really thinking a law would be just, or useful, or really neat does not make it Constitutional.  That power must be allowed within the context of our greater laws, of our framework.  Banning handguns may, or may not, save lives.  That does not mean it's something that the Constitution permits.  If we're going to debate this decision, and the other heady issues of the day, we need to remember exactly what it is we are debating.

If you want to agitate for bans of this sort, stop pinning your hopes on the judicial branch.  If you think we need these bans, then blame the Founders for their lack of understanding as to how American society would grow and evolve over time.  Build a consensus and amend the document.

Barack Obama was a professor of Constitutional law.  He knows these arguments far better than I do.  The right exists, like it or not.  Regulations will likely vary from state to state because the needs and wants, the risks and rewards, they are not uniform.  

Thank you all, and please be well.

[Update] Tip jar added, a little late.



Display:


Consistent (none / 0)

Consistent with this previous statement -
Because I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it's important for us to recognize that we've got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of people - law-abiding citizens use if for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets, we are going to trace more effectively, how these guns are ending up on the streets, to unscrupulous gun dealers, who often times are selling to straw purchasers. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. Those are all approaches that I think the average gun owner would actually support. The problem is, that we've got a position, often times by the NRA that says any regulation whatsoever is the camel's nose under the tent. And that, I think, is not where the American people are at. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people's traditions.

Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:51:53 PM EST

Re: Consistent (2.00 / 1)

or after he was for the ban. did I not in read a diary earlier I read how he was for the ban , but somehow the man blames it on an aide ( although the vidoe shows him for the ban ).

Side note: Miracle how many putz's he has for aides. This like the what 5th aide that he threw under a bus when he wanted to change positions.  a great resume for hiring at best...

asskising of a man , who ( am I incorrect on this ?) I read on dailykos , did not have the decency to even come vote on FISA? I've been away mostly all morning today , so I'm catching up what is going w/ fisa.

another absent/present vote?

let the brown on tap flowing out of their nose now TR away!    


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:05:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (2.00 / 1)

He has consistently stated that the Constitution provides an individual right to keep and bear arms.  Do you have anything to contradict that?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:06:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (none / 0)

I believe I was talking about the DC ban issue. Which I honestly am in agreement w/ supreme court.... but noticed his consistent line of blaming others on issues he stood for and now is reversing.

Which is probably hightened as source of irratation given his FISA dance...

and his constant "its not me honey, It was my aide".


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:26:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (none / 0)

Except that both John McCain and Hillary Clinton missed the vote too.

Whoops!


by MeganLocke on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:13:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (none / 0)

I would ask for Annie Oakley's opinion on it but it doesnt matter, as the primary is over, yet you still continue to fight it anyway.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (none / 0)

is that some sort of righteous indignation you are trying be cute at? because you ridicule her while at it.

I hope never see you ever write one thing about any unity... which I would respect those who feel that ( it' s free country) vs the ones who feel that way but pretend to be for unity...


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:34:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (1.00 / 2)

I care as much about unity as you do, And I am beyond sick of you whiny crying political wannabe terrorists.  I don't care who you vote for, not now, not ever, vote for McCain for all I care, and that goes for your whole group.  Clinton was a race baiting liar that ran a terrible campaign.  If she didn't embrace a shameless campaign of Identity politics and run on reverend right she would have been out of the race long before instead of driving her campaign and finances into the ground.  She is a joke, no leader in the senate, no chair position, a complete joke with a broken legacy for running a terrible race baiting campaign will with incompetence.

I dotn care who you vote for, and Clinton was still a joke, in fact, adding that dead carcass onto the ticket would hurt Obama's chance of winning, dead enders are what they are, complete jokes.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:44:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (2.00 / 1)

Not helpful.  At all.  People like the poster you are responding to thrive on nasty comments like the one you just gave him.

Hillary is still a powerful voice for Democrats, not a "joke."


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:19:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (none / 0)

Lets not pretend independent of anything i post these clowns wont be fighting the primary until Nov. 4.  The dead enders are not needed.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:21:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (2.00 / 1)

Absolutely, there are people here that are going to vote against their own self interests simply out of spite.  But there are plenty of people that supported Hillary and now support Barack, and it's a slap in the face to them every time they have to read someone trashing their preferred candidate after she's already left the race and is supporting Obama... especially if the only reason for doing so is to give trolls exactly what they want, which is inflammatory, divisive rhetoric.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (none / 0)

don't worry.. he is backed by teh same sentiment by a large % of his group...

If it were wriiten in reverse about obama I'm sure the TR's would have racked up. Actually lack of it makes it all the more our case ... than his remarks.  

Its not ye who make those remarks I despise but for good men to stand by and allow it  - alivekickin , june26th,2008


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (none / 0)

"I refuse to vote for an Arab to be in my White House," said retired salesman Dean Johnson of Lanett, Ala. "That is the only factor. Otherwise, you couldn't break both my legs and make me vote for a Republican."

typical Clinton supporter.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (none / 0)

"is backed by teh same sentiment by a large % of his group..."

Group? What group? Aren't you supposed to be part of the Obama-supporting group? Are you screwing up your own cover story again, aliveandkickin?

"If it were written in reverse about Obama"

Yes, the democratic nominee is generally believed someone to support around these parts. That distresses you unimaginably ofcourse, since you want equal time to be given to McCain supporters.

As for Clinton:
If we praise Clinton, we're accused of hypocrisy. If we bash Clinton, we're accused of divisiveness.
If we don't speak about Clinton at all, we're accused of being arrogant.

So honestly, people that go out of the way to find a reason not to vote for Obama, will certainly find such. That makes them a lost cause and as such irrelevant.


by Aris Katsaris2 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 07:22:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (2.00 / 1)

FISA cloture was voted on yesterday, 80-15.  The bill itself has not been voted on yet, yesterday's vote on ruled only that the debate post-cloture not exceed 30 hours of debate.  So far, that debate has not begun (although there is no requirement that debate begin).  

Obama, McCain, Clinton, Kennedy and Byrd did not vote on FISA.

Obama and McCain were campaigning.  Byrd is in the hospital.  Kennnedy is recovering from his surgery.  Clinton is taking a break after the campaign.  


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:31:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (none / 0)

thanks for bringing me upto date..


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:35:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (none / 0)

McCain has missed about 62% of the Senate votes this cycle, and is STILL losing. (Obama has missed about 45%)


by notedgeways on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:50:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consistent (2.00 / 1)

I see you finally stopped with the "as an Obama supporter" line when this guy could cure cancer and you would find something wrong with him.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:52:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Obama's Statement on the Heller Decisi (2.00 / 1)


Obama:
Justice Scalia himself acknowledged that this right is not absolute and subject to reasonable regulations enacted by local communities to keep their streets safe.

But in this case, the local community (DC) enacted a reasonable regulation (allowed the ownership of rifles and shotguns but not handguns)... but the SCOTUS ruled against it.

That seems to go AGAINST the right of a local community to make judgments to lower crime and murder rates.

The DC "gun ban" was not a ban on all guns. The right to bear arms was not taken away. It was a regulation.

I have to say, I wish Obama's statement were MUCH stronger.


"Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been." Hillary Rodham Clinton - June 7, 2008
by twinmom on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:01:29 PM EST

Re: Senator Obama's Statement (none / 0)

Well not exactly. The majority opinion stated you could not ban one class of guns which are in common use and do not violate existing and accepted gun control laws.  (ie automatic weapons etc)

Disclaimer, this is not an exact quote from the majority opinion. to read the entire opinion go here:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/0 7pdf/07-290.pdf


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Obama's Statement (none / 0)

The majority opinion stated you could not ban one class of guns which are in common use and do not violate existing and accepted gun control laws.  (ie automatic weapons etc)

I guess I don't understand what you are saying.  That specific class of guns (handguns) did violate the existing and accepted gun control laws in Washington D.C. Just like automatic weapons might be banned somewhere (or everywhere), handguns are banned in Washington, D.C.  What makes one of those classes (automatic weapons) rather than the other (handguns) more "existing and accepted" as a category for banning?


by markjay on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Obama's Statement (none / 0)

What they are saying is DC cannot out of hand go against the norm.
And the norm is that hand guns are an accepted class of weapon.
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:01:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Obama's Statement (none / 0)

How do norms change if no-one can ever go against them?  I'm sure at one time there was no norm against automatic weapons, until some municipality somewhere banned them, and started a trend (etc.)


by markjay on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:16:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok by me as well (2.00 / 1)

Rec'd, and nice job on the analysis.

Obama's take on this is just what mine is as well.

I think Obama's judicial philosophy is shaped by guys like Cass Sunstien, and he will appoint like minded judges.

Pragmaticists, NOT absolutists or so-called orginalists like Scalia.

He will balance the court, probably judges more like Souter then anyone else.

Which is just fine with me.


"Either you're the butcher Or the lamb but even so, Everybody pays as they go-Jakob Dylan"
by WashStateBlue on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:02:32 PM EST

Re: Senator Obama's Statement on t (2.00 / 1)

He's right- we can't get in the way of the constitution, even when we don't like what the end result of what it says is.  The same way we can't let the Republicans do it, either.

It's not my preference that handguns are legal, but constitutionally, the court did the right thing today.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:11:17 PM EST

Re: Senator Obama's Statement on the Heller Decisi (2.00 / 1)

Please spare me your tortured constitutional analysis, which really seems driven by your desire to conform BO's campaign position on guns with the looney-tunes position of the NRA crypto-fascists.

BO's statement is just the carefully crafted non-statement of just another pol trying to curry favor with every single interest group no matter how destructive to the the common good.

Just another "wink-wink, nudge-nudge, I'm right there with you no matter how disparate your views may be from my real views."

The more I hear from this guy BO trying to rush towards some perceived center, the less I like him.

Sad.


by M1513 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:13:58 PM EST

Re: Senator Obama's Statement on the Heller Decisi (2.00 / 2)

I'm going to avoid using the rather lengthy list of curse words your comment deserves.

My position today is the same as it was yesterday, which is the same as it was ten years ago.  That also seems to be true, at least regarding the Constitution, of Senator Obama.

Nuance aside, this is exactly what he's been saying for ages.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:15:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Obama's Statement on the Heller Decisi (2.00 / 1)

"The more I hear from this guy BO trying to rush towards some perceived center, the less I like him."

Based on your postings here, you came in with a strong dislike for Senator Obama?

I doubt any statement he made would have pleased you, based on your previous opinions here.


"Either you're the butcher Or the lamb but even so, Everybody pays as they go-Jakob Dylan"
by WashStateBlue on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:21:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Obama's Statement on the Heller Decisi (none / 0)

You're right. He is a horrible, loathsome, detestable person, and there really is no reason for you to continue posting on a site where we support him and are trying to get him elected.

See? Problem solved.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:share your insight? (none / 0)

What are your points of disagreement with this diary?
What is your analysis?
Your casual dismissal with out any specifics
is thus casually dismissed.
"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Whoops. Tips? (2.00 / 7)

Tip Jar, a little late.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:14:16 PM EST

Background? (2.00 / 1)

I find that very unpersuasive.  Other Constitutional provisions don't have rambling introductions.  The prohibition on quartering soldiers in peacetime doesn't being with "Because King George is a dick and keeps forcing us to house and feed his soldiers..."


by JJE on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:17:26 PM EST

Re: Background? (none / 0)

Will you agree that, even if the first provision has a causal link to the second, the second amendment is written in a highly ambiguous and anachronistic way?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:18:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sure (none / 0)

but that doesn't mean we should ignore it.  Also see my comment above.


by JJE on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Forgot to add (none / 0)

that the most plausible reading of the structure and relevant historical context of the 2nd Amendment suggest that the intent was to allow the states to revolt against an oppressive federal government.  It's a protection for states rights, not individual rights.


by JJE on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:19:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Forgot to add (none / 0)

that the most plausible reading of the structure and relevant historical context of the 2nd Amendment suggest that the intent was to allow the states to revolt against an oppressive federal government.  It's a protection for states rights, not individual rights.

The entire Bill of Rights was written to protect States' rights.  It set sweeping limits on the federal government while not thusly limiting States (or cities or counties, etc.).

Then came Incorporation which, of course, changed States rights into the rights of individuals.


by Collideascope on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:28:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Forgot to add (2.00 / 1)

I don't think that's right at all. Although the Bill of Rights originally was intended to apply only to the federal government, the rights prescribed therein are predominantly rights of individuals against the federal government. The 4th amendment was intended to reserve a state's right to conduct unreasonable searches and seizures. It was meant to keep the federal government out of individuals' bedrooms.


by DPW on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Forgot to add (none / 0)

"The 4th Amendment was intended" should say "The 4th Amendment was NOT intended"


by DPW on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Forgot to add (none / 0)

I don't think that's right at all.

The Bill of Rights was, as you concede, a curb on the limits of the federal government.  It was uttely unconcerned with the rights of individuals; it sought merely to put those power to limit certain behaviors in the hands of the State rather than in the hands of the federal government, in the instances articulated in the Bill itself.

Incorporation changed that.  It transformed the Bill of Rights from a document that jealously reserved the power of the States to deny rights to individuals where the federal government could not into a document which established those rights as inviolate, whether by the federal government or a State government or a city government or a county government.

What you're claiming is that Amendment II, as originally written, prohibited the federal government from outlawing state militias but under Amendment II, even back in 1791, Congress was free to ban all private ownership of firearms?  Is that what you're saying?  Because if Amendment II only speaks to militias, then there has never been a time in the history of this nation when Congress didn't have the express Constitutional authority to confiscate any and all handguns, rifles, shotguns, muskets, and so forth.

I really have a hard time comprehending the notion that the Founders involved in the Bill of Rights - Madison et al - would have concurred that the Bill of Rights permitted the federal government to ban firearm ownership by individuals (as opposed to firearm bearing within a militia).  And it boggles my mind that anyone familiar with said individuals would assert that they would agree with such a notion

Individuals have no rights if only one level of the government is prohibited from violating those potential rights.  The Bill of Rights did not protect individuals from government; it safeguarded the power of governments (states and subsidiary governments) to ban free speech, to ban firearms, to quarter local troops in homes, to search dwellings and persons warrants be damned, to deny the right to a jury trial, and a whole host of other abuses.

Incorporation changed that.  It turned the reservation to abuse into a liberty of the individual.  For all the amendments, not just the one(s) someone likes.


by Collideascope on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:19:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Forgot to add (none / 0)

I'm not claiming anything specifically about the Second Amendment.

What I'm responding to is your claim that the Bill of Rights was really about states' rights rather than individual rights. Part of the disagreement may relate to what exactly you mean to distinguish with terms like "states' rights" and "individual rights." When I think of the term "right," I think of a justified restraint on how some other entity may act. Two things may be said about this kind of right. First, a right is the correlative of a duty, and a right is something that one entity has against another entity. (See Wesley Hohfield seminal work on the nature of rights, "Some Fundamental Legal Conceptions as Applied to Judicial Reasoning," first published in the Yale Law Journal in 1913; summaries are plentiful on the internet, I'm sure)

There, of course, are other ways in which the term "right" may be used--such as the negation of a duty--but most of the language in the Bill of Rights appears to describe constraints on how the federal government may interfere with the conduct of a person or The People. The 6th and 7th Amendments areguable grant positive rights to certain procedures, but I think those can be interpreted as constraints on how the federal government prosecutes the accused.

So, in short, when I use the term "individual rights," I'm saying that that individual citizens have certain claims they may assert against the federal government relating to various constraints.

"States' rights," on the other hand would refer to specific rights of one political entity (any of the several states) against the federal government, presumably arising out of the stipulated allocation of authority within the main body of the consistution and the 10th amendment.

This is all a bit of oversimplification, but I'm just trying to emphasize the individual nature of those rights found in the Bill or Rights. They are there to protect individual people from the federal government, and there is plenty of historical data to support that claim.


by DPW on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:59:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Forgot to add (none / 0)

That should say "justified constraint" in the first paragraph, not justified "restraint."


by DPW on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:00:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Forgot to add (none / 0)

I also want to reply specifically to this:

Individuals have no rights if only one level of the government is prohibited from violating those potential rights.  The Bill of Rights did not protect individuals from government; it safeguarded the power of governments (states and subsidiary governments) to ban free speech, to ban firearms, to quarter local troops in homes, to search dwellings and persons warrants be damned, to deny the right to a jury trial, and a whole host of other abuses.

First, a person may have a right against one entity but not another. I have a right against you that you not come on my property. However, I don't have that right against my wife, who co-owns the property, or against anyone else whom I'm given a license to enter. So, the fact that the Bill of Rights fails to address individuals' rights vis-a-vis their state/local governments does not indicate the absense of individual rights against the federal government.

Secondly, and releated to what I said above, this is the federal consistution, so it makes perfect sense that its Bill of Rights only speaks to individuals' rights against the federal government. Individual rights against states were enumerated in state constitutions and, in some instances, the common law. Notably, many of the rights prescribed by the Federal Bill of Rights are also present in many state constitutions.


by DPW on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:34:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think it is causal (2.00 / 3)

But I've always interpreted it differently.

The Founders were fresh off the Revolution, when they formed armed militias to rise up and throw the British out of the country.

The amendment says:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I've always interpreted the "security of a free State" to mean securing the state as being free--its security against becoming a tyranny.  It's meant to allow citizens to have a check against the government, because they recognized that any government can--like the one they threw off ten years earlier--become despotic.

The fact that we have an organized military now doesn't remove the need for the citizens to have that check against the government.

That, or it's saying we're all allowed to have bear arms.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:19:06 PM EST

Re: I think it is causal (2.00 / 2)

Is that some kind of pig bear man?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:20:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think it is causal (none / 0)

No, it's more of a half pig, half bearman...


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:21:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think it is causal (2.00 / 1)

im going with man bear pig.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:28:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is wrong on Scalia (none / 0)

All Scalia said was that this decision was about DC handgun ban not about anything else. Scalia might believe a mentally ill person has a right to a gun he just hasn't had a case about it.


by whothere on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:30:48 PM EST

Re: Obama is wrong on Scalia (none / 0)

I dont like Scalia at all, but I am pretty sure he addressed that in the decision.  Actually, I am 1000% positive he said they shouldn't.  


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:32:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is wrong on Scalia (2.00 / 1)

It wasn't directly addressed on a constitional level.


by whothere on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is wrong on Scalia (1.00 / 1)

Are you drunk or high?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is wrong on Scalia (none / 0)

Its only funny because this scenario was actually directly addressed.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:35:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is wrong on Scalia (none / 0)

No it wasn't. He did not rule that mentally ill people couldn't have guns. He just said his decision today didn't put those laws in doubt. A future case exclusively based on it could.


by whothere on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Obama's Statement on the Heller Decisi (2.00 / 2)

In the strictest sense, there's no reason any of couldn't have bazookas, tanks, warplanes, etc.  After all, any of these "arms" could be reasonably construed to be for self-defense (particularly if other citizens had them as well).  But that isn't reasonable.  So we have to make laws which are reasonable based upon other societal factors, not the least of which is the fact that the government has a standing army which is nominally here to protect us.  So, they have the bazookas, etc. and we don't need to buy them for our own protection.  So what is a reasonable use of a gun in the current society?  This all comes down to intangibles, opinions, and subjective decisions.  It is an issue that could be re-visited every few years with differing results.

I'm not opposed to guns, but all of the arguments against regulating guns act as though they are based on unbending truths within the Constitution.  When, actually, their interpretation is as subjective as any gun ban.


by the mollusk on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:35:08 PM EST

Re: Senator Obama's (none / 0)

You make some solid points, but I do believe there is a fairly coherent framework within which the regulations should exist and be judged.

Unfortunately the Supreme Court continues to be too chickenshit to create it.  This decision is more direct than they've done in ages, but it still dances around the edges.

Give us a rule, even a broad one, that tells us what test applies!  We do this in so many other areas of the Constitution.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:39:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Obama's (none / 0)

Yeah, a get a silent chuckle out of the headline "Supreme Court rules that citizens have a right to own guns".  Was that ever in doubt?


by the mollusk on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:49:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Obama's Statement on the Heller Decis (2.00 / 1)


You have to see this "verdict" in historical context.  The Indians and pirates aren't conducting raids anymore (the original basis of the British militia law operative in the colonies), the slaves aren't conspiring to rebellions, there aren't states out to secede lately, hunting is actually turning into a sport of the few (and could actually mostly be done with bows or crossbows).

National violent crime rates and sociopathy peaked out around 1980 and are dropping.  The rate of gun ownership peaked around 1978-82 and has dropped 1/3 in 25 years, the actual number of guns out in the populace is dropping.

So this is the big counter-to-the-run-of-play effort.

The original meaning of "well regulated" is actually known- it means: licensed/chartered by state or local government, and fully accountable to it.  All these nonaccountability and absolute "pro-gun" rights claims basically emanate from a sociopathic perspective that has been loud or dominant in tone, though not in numbers, since the days of slave uprisings and Indian raids.

Basically, gun laws are about the level of civilizedness versus barbarism that a society sets for itself.  There has never been a high civilization in which common people bear weapons and kill each other on the streets.  


by killjoy on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Obama's Statement on the Heller Decisi (none / 0)

If you're going to take the Scalia tact, then the arms we have a Constitutional right to keep and bear are those that would have have generally available at the time the Constitution was written. So no, there's not necessarily a Constitutional right to bear RPGs just because there is a right to handguns or rifles.

I don't think there's anyone out there saying "regulating guns is unconstitutional, period." A lot of gun rights supporters tend to view it in a similar light as the First Amendment -- it doesn't cease to be free speech just because some reasonable and necessary regulations are made. Reasonable minds can and do differ on what is in fact "reasonable and necessary," but a right to handguns in the home is not within that category.


by Skorri on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:08:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Obama's Statement on the Heller Decisi (none / 0)

Good treatment

An argument I've been chewing over is  "if a purpose of the individual right to bear arms is to defend the citizenry from government gone wrong, are not the more extreme weapons the ones most worth of protection/"

I used to think the possibility of a need for protection from government so unlikely that only right wing kooks could imagine it.

But during this administration there were moments when I wondered if a coup wasn't possible-- and if it occurred what would be our recourse?

Maybe gun violence is a reasonable trade off for a prickly citizenry?

But of this is the case the useful stuff is that which can stop a Blackwater APC or Helicopter, not a squirrel rifle or duck hunter's shotgun.

I haven't reach a conclusion, but it is an interesting question


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:49:10 PM EST

A Pattern is Developing (none / 0)

Obama supports the Heller decision, as he supported the conservative dissenters on yesterdays Supreme Court death penalty ruling. He has also stated that he also agrees with the conservative justices on affirmative action. What disturbs me is how many people in the netroots did not support Hillary Clinton on grounds that she was a triangulator.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:04:48 PM EST

Re: A Pattern is Developing (none / 0)

I personally side with Obama on the death penalty thing.  I'm against the death penalty in general, BUT if you're going to have it, in my mind, raping young children is equivalent with murder.  I haven't heard him say he agrees with the conservatives on affirmative action, just that he thinks class should also maybe be a consideration.  My understanding is that the conservative judges are against affirmative action in any formulation, Obama is not.  Reaper0Bot0 has some pretty good advice in this post, that constitutionality is different from policy making.  I realize it's difficult to separate in this discussion.  But I have no doubt Obama would appoint liberal judges, and he won't be urging the federal government to adopt capital punishment for even more offenses.  I too am disturbed when people don't agree with me, but such is the nature of life.


by cycl06 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:39:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

he has flipped again (none / 0)

since he used to support a total ban on the sale and manufacture of hand guns.  But of course that was when he was running for a small state senate seat in  a very liberal Black district.
I don't think Hillary is the one "who would do or say anything to get elected".

Having said that, I have no real problem with his present position. It makes political sense and I would expect any of our candidates to take the same stance.


by Teacher1956 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:29:39 PM EST

Re: he has flipped again (none / 0)

"I don't think Hillary is the one "who would do or say anything to get elected"

As a stone cold Hillary suppporter, that is what you of course would say?

But, I think think She not only WOULD say anything, she VOTED for some horrendous crap, (mostly on the advice of bad men in her campaign) like the flag burning ammendment just for the purpose of being a centerist when see was going to run against Rudy (that was the plan)?

Of course, maybe you LIKED that bill?

Most Hillary supporters were loathe to do anything but defend her every move?

Now, these some folks are SCREAMING about Obama and FISA, Campaign Finance Reform, etc...

Consistancy is not their strong suit, I see.


"Either you're the butcher Or the lamb but even so, Everybody pays as they go-Jakob Dylan"
by WashStateBlue on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:06:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

R0Bot0 - your analysis is dead on. (none / 0)

One could and should also consider the idea of gun control from the following position:

McCain wins in November, Congress strengthens the USAPA - making spying on Americans commonplace, political opponents start disappearing through rendition, we end up with a situation which is horribly like the one in the movie "V For Vendetta".  

Who among us would NOT want to arm themselves against a government run amok in this way?  Who among us would not hold dear the people's right to keep and bear arms in a world like the one I've described?  Who among us would not partner up with the conservatives who would oppose a government like that one?

Yes, we should control guns.  I personally HATE handguns, for they have no purpose other than to kill people.  But it is a burden we must bear if we are to retain our right to arm ourselves when we feel it necessary to do so.

Constitutionally Yours,
Celtic Merlin


Bush and McCain - as inseparable as Shit and Stink!
by Celtic Merlin on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 08:49:42 PM EST


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