McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do!

John McCain came to California this week on what has been described as his energy tour, defending his call for a lifting of the ban on off-shore drilling (not a popular position here in California) and repeating his proposal to build 45 new nuclear power plants by 2030 and 55 more down the road.

This is how one writer describes McCain's pro-nuclear stance:

It's an unqualified enthusiasm that brings to mind Homer Simpson's memorable prayer thanking God "for nuclear power: the cleanest, safest energy there is. Except for solar, which is just a pipe dream."

But what's really odd about McCain's love affair with nuclear power is how he's selling it: "the French do it, why don't we!"

"My friend, the technology is there. The Europeans do it. I mean it's safe. It's being done. So, to think that that is going to require some pain on the American people economically when the Europeans-- 80 percent of the French electricity is generated by nuclear power. They are doing fine," McCain said to applause from the audience.

Hell, you'd think Lindsay Graham was French the way he's talking about their widespread use of nuclear power.

"It's ridiculous that America cannot proceed with nuclear power," Graham said on Fox News on Wednesday."We should follow the French model of storage and recycling." [...]

The Republican suggested that Obama look at the French nuclear power program, which provides most of the country's power, when he visits Europe.

"Surely we can be as bold as the French," said Graham. "They know what they're doing. They have a very mature nuclear program."

So, after the years long Republican demonization of all things European, particularly all things French, now John McCain and Lindsay Graham are accusing Democrats of not being French enough?

But, as Carl Pope at HuffPo explains, McCain had better hope Americans don't ask the French people how that whole nuclear thing has worked out for them.

But a recent analysis by Lawrence Solomon shows that citing the French experience is yet another example of McCain having failed to keep up with events.

Solomon explains the sordid story of France's nuclear romance. It's technical, but if you want to know why nuclear power is -- even for its wildest fans -- a limited part of our energy future, worth reading. But the bottom line is that nuclear power effectively bankrupted Electricite de France, the French power company. As a result, 61 percent of the population of France favors a complete phase-out of nuclear power -- a larger anti-nuclear constituency than in the U.S., where experience with nuclear and its economic problems is much more limited.

Says Solomon:

Nuclear reactors cannot possibly meet 80% of America's power needs -- or those of any country whose power market dominates its region -- because of limitations in nuclear technology. McCain needs to find another miracle energy solution, or abandon his vow to drastically cut back carbon dioxide emissions.



Display:


Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (2.00 / 1)

I agree completely that we should use nuclear power. Can you think of another feasible form of zero carbon emission energy?

The fact that nuclear energy supposedly bankrupted Electricite de France is a non-starter of an argument. That was a result of government controls on energy prices in France. It wouldn't be the same here.  The nuclear plants that we do have are run profitably. And modern nuclear technology would make new reactors even better.

It is nice that everybody has come around to what a disaster ethanol is but we need to change our stance on nuclear energy.

It is time to stop calling an energy policy that lives in fear of old technology progressive.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:14:01 PM EST

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Government controls on the price of nuclear energy are the only way people are going to buy it in the first place.

As I said below, the day that oil is 1000 dollars a barrel is the day that the free market will support nuclear power.  Until then you have to put the companies on the dole and pay people to use it.


by MeganLocke on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:19:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Really? Is nuclear energy that expensive? I did not know that.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:28:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Building a plant is very expensive and running it and stocking it with fuel is pretty cheap.  So on balance, it depends.


by semiquaver on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

You didn't?  

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but just in case you're serious, just think of it this way: nuclear power is to oil as setting off a million controlled fission reactions per second is to lighting a stick on fire.

And the free market makes it prohibitively expensive = meaning any company offering nuclear power will lose money.  No one will buy it so long as oil and gas are available at relatively cheap prices, and by cheap I mean cheaper than Uranium.

Either you pay companies to produce nuclear power, in which case you're going to have a huge part of the US budget devoted to just handing out money to energy companies, or you nationalize the energy industry and take a loss, or you don't use nuclear power.  It's kind of that simple.


by MeganLocke on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:46:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Oh, and price of oil to price of uranium is an analogy.  It's not supposed to be anything other than a comparison.

In other words, don't point out to me that the price of the two has nothing to do with their relative energy prices, because I already know.


by MeganLocke on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:50:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (2.00 / 1)

I was not being sarcastic.  I am not against a government subsidy if it makes energy cheaper and cuts oil imports in the long run.

I prefer solar if it is actually cheaper.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Solar is MUCH cheaper.  And that's even without possibilities like the startup in California that now can create wafer thin solar cells using a process similar to laser printing.

For myself, until someone comes up with a way to deal with the nuclear waste issue, it's a non-starter for me when solar and wind have so much potential that has never been explored because all the money has been spent on oil and nuclear.


Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.
by edparrot on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Well, lots of money has gone into wind. It is just not competitive with oil or nuclear.  Money goes where it is the most economical.

Nanosolar is the company you are think of and it is very exciting. I am just not sure if it is true or hype.

On the other hand, I found some research from MIT that points out that nuclear is not yet competitive with coal and natural gast.

http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/

Of course that study was done in 2003 when energy prices were much lower.

The cost of nuclear is in building the plant. It has a high up front cost.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:41:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

For myself, until someone comes up with a way to deal with the nuclear waste issue

Reprocessing, fast breeder reactors, vitrification of reprocessing byproducts, long-term geologic storage.  We've had the answer for sixty years.

when solar and wind have so much potential that has never been explored because all the money has been spent on oil and nuclear.

You remember that horrible awful energy bill in 2005 that no progressive in their right mind would ever vote for?  It established a loan guarantee program to spur renewable energy development to the tune of $25 billion per year.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:59:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

I'd be happy to look at some links regarding those solutions to the waste problem if you have them.

As for subsidies, I'm not sure what you are suggesting.  We should have been spending massively (12 figures) for at least a decade while removing all the tax advantages for petroleum.  Are you saying that progressives are to blame because they didn't support a bill that contained some money for renewable while having a number of other provisions progressives didn't like?  We do not have a comprehensive strategy for powering the world for the next hundred years or more.  We need to.


Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.
by edparrot on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 05:30:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

a)  12 figures?  The program I mentioned offers $25 billion per year, or $100,000,000,000 after four years.

b)  What I'm trying to point out is, there already are massive "subsidies" (well, loan guarantees) for commercialized renewable energy generation already in place, as well as massive direct subsidies in the form of research funding.  The reason that renewables haven't taken off yet despite the massive funding advantage is because they aren't "there yet" in terms of efficiency and practicality.  They're close, but they can't yet provide large-scale baseload power enough to remove coal from the equation.

As for links, there are no links to provide a full background on the subject, but read up on fast breeder reactors, fuel reprocessing, and vitrification.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 06:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

According to this site, http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf02. html

You are wrong about the cost of nuclear energy.

I sense there is some knee jerk reaction against nuclear energy that is based purely on old fears and prejudices and not accurate with the facts about modern nuclear technology. These fears and prejudices are not the way to move America forward.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

You sense wrong - I was used to be for it, and I've never been against it.  My argument is that it's not feasible, and more specifically, that the fact that it's being pushed is more electioneering than anything else.

The link you sent me was from a nuclear industry group which is like getting your information on smoking for Phillip Morris.  Which is what makes this debate so difficult - there are so few people who are truly qualified to evaluate it that the best you can do is get sources and bang them against each other.


by MeganLocke on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:42:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Oil has nothing to do with nuclear power.  They are not competing resources.  Oil powers transportation, nuclear powers electricity generation.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:43:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Other than a nuclear weapon, there's nothing that nuclear power can, uh, power, that fossil fuels cannot, and far more cheaply.


by MeganLocke on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

"Oil" and "fossil fuels" are not synonyms.  The fossil fuel used for our electricity is mostly coal.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:50:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

I mean, my parents use oil heat in the winter.  Last I checked they don't live in a mobile home.

They (and I, since I live in the city and they live in the suburbs) use energy from a coal burning plant.  Probably the same furnace in fact.

When people say "oil" its usually shorthand for fossil fuels, since their prices are pretty closely correlated.


by MeganLocke on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (2.00 / 1)

Heating oil, yes; though that's a rather small market and is in competition with natural gas and wood stoves as well as with electricity.

But the price of coal is not at all related to the price of oil.  They're extracted by different industries in different countries using different methods and except for a very few corner cases, don't even directly compete with one another.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

The potential (and desirable) shift to plug-in hybrids and fully electric cars is why oil becomes mostly irrelevant and the power grid is also used to power the transportation grid. Enough spare power exists currently over-night to power the vast majority of our vehicle fleet. To power the entire vehicle fleet would require only a 17% increase in power generation. Even using the current dirty mix of energy generation in the US this would drastically reduce emissions and get America off foreign oil. Having plug-ins or fully electric cars tied into the grid during peak times would allow them to discharge power into the grid reducing the need to fire up natural gas plants to deal with peak energy demands. Gains in efficiency for buildings (lighting, cooling, heating) and appliances may reduce that 17% down to nothing.


by Quinton on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:18:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Yea!! I have four answers for you. 1) Chernoble
2) 3-mile Island 3) Nuclear waste 4) Murphy's Law; "If it can go wrong, It will go wrong!"
by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:28:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (2.00 / 1)

Chernoble?

That was a very primitive reactor and you are living in fear of technology that won't even be used.

Nuclear waste v. carbon emissions.  Modern reactor recycle their radio active material and eventually put out waste that can be used in medical imaging, depleted uranium armor, and other industrial uses.  Some waste is left over but it can be safely stored at Yukan Mountain.  Either that or have more carbon emissions. No free ride I am afraid.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please refer to answer # 4 (none / 0)


by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nuclear Waste (2.00 / 1)

A coal plant produces as much nuclear waste per KwH as a nuclear plant.  The difference?

The coal plant nuclear waste is part shed particulates (out into the environment) and part ash (extremely difficult to contain as waste and in volumes 1000x the waste of a nuclear plant) while the nuclear waste from a nuclear plant is contained in a small number of solid rods which are easily contained.


by Collideascope on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:10:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nuclear Waste is foreva and eva and eva! (none / 0)

You left out the part where the stuff will have a half life of a skillion years. I haven't heard of many Pro nuclear buffs offer to keep the stuff under their childrens beds for eternity! How about your neighborhood just think everyone will glow in the dark, who needs street lights?


by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:27:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nuclear Waste is foreva and eva and eva! (none / 0)

Unless you reprocess, then it's only a few hundred years.

And the entire volume of nuclear waste ever produced by nuclear energy in America could be stored in an area the size of a football field out in the middle of the desert.  If we reprocessed it, the total volume of waste that would be produced in the end could fit in a swimming pool.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:33:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Profitably is right!  the price of electricity here in Northeast Ohio is some of the highest int he nation!  Why?  Nuclear power plants!

People forget that nuclear power isn't free.. the plants are very, very expensive to build and operate.


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:38:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (2.00 / 1)

The reason the Europeans do it and we don't is because their utilities are public.  

Unless McCain is willing to nationalize the energy industry, it's not going to happen - Americans, by and large, are agnostic about nuclear power, but they would never tolerate the massive subsidies you'd need to get private companies to build and maintain nuclear reactors.  And private companies won't build them unless they're paid to do it, and then they get to charge people for using the power on top of it.

The day that oil is 1000 dollars a barrel (at LEAST) is the day that building and operating a nuclear reactor will become cost efficient.

This is just dumb electioneering - the Republicans are acting like all you'd have to do is say "okay oil companies, fire 'em up!" and we'd have cheap nuclear energy.  There's no such thing.  France has nuclear reactors because the government of France owns the reactors and doesn't mind taking a loss - again, because in Europe energy is a public utility.


by MeganLocke on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:17:04 PM EST

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Unless McCain is willing to nationalize the energy industry, it's not going to happen - Americans, by and large, are agnostic about nuclear power, but they would never tolerate the massive subsidies you'd need to get private companies to build and maintain nuclear reactors.  And private companies won't build them unless they're paid to do it, and then they get to charge people for using the power on top of it.

They don't need subsidies, because the technology is profitable.  All they need are loan guarantees.  Loan guarantees don't cost us anything unless the project fails, and most won't.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:49:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Nuclear is only profitable if people are willing to buy it, and they will not until until fossil fuels are far, far more expensive then they are right now.


by MeganLocke on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:54:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Would you mind citing a source for that claim?  There are nuclear plants in my state that are unsubsidized, and reduced the cost of power when they went online.


by semiquaver on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:43:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Good points.  Solomon also claims in a different article posted today that advancements in solar energy make it much cheaper than nuclear.  If this is true than it is clearly the way to go.

My home owner's association is going solar. We are going to put up panels to run the elevators and common area lighting. The amazing thing is that they are doing this to save money.  Apparently the cost of the panels per month over the term of the financing is less than our $3000.00 electricity bill.

If this is  true, and I have my doubts about my HOA having their facts straight, it bodes well for the future of solar energy.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:52:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

I'm just going to make the quick note that its not the 'Europeans' but rather the French.  The VAST majority of Europeans are STRONGLY against nuclear energy.  The European Commission a few months ago came up with the 20/20/20 plan, which includes bringing up all renewable energy use to 20% in each country in the EU by 2020.  The French lobbied VERY hard to include nuclear energy in this, as they would be fine then, but the other Europeans states refused.  

Nearly every European state has a real problem with nuclear energy because they experienced Chernobyl first hand.  Hell, the radiation cloud made a lot of farm land unusable, game animals and fish inedible, and rivers contaminated for multiple years afterward, IN FRANCE!  

Now don't get me wrong, though my long ramblings may make it seem like I don't support nuclear energy, I really do.  I find the Europeans fears to be misplaced, as, yes, they did experience a tragedy first hand, but it was very old technology poorly monitored.  We have MUCH safer equipment today.


Vote Change in '08!
by iowa dem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:55:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

I am so disgusted with the TM! My only information about French Nuclear was all positive and exclusively from the TM. Thanks for giving me the real picture.


by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:22:48 PM EST

solomon's opposition to nuclear power (none / 0)

I am reading the cited opposition to nuclear power from Lawrence Solomon. He maintains that France is a bad example because France's nuclear program creates so much electricity that you can't give it away during off peak hours! Does that sound like a problem? That is a limitation? What the ef? The problem seems to be that nuclear energy goes full bore 24/7

In fact, excess capacity can be used to create stored energy during off peak hours, for example kinetic storage of energy at reservoirs. They do this in California, they pump water up into the reservoir at night when there is excess capacity and run it back down through the turbines during peak demand hours.  Another way to store energy is to use the excess electricity to create hydrogen that can be put through a fuel cell generator during peak hours.

So Solomon's argument fails heavily on that point.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:27:45 PM EST

Re: solomon's opposition to nuclear power (none / 0)

Not really. If a nuclear reactor is running at full peak 24/7, how does one store the generation of electricity during low usage hours?
 How does one create more electricity when at high usage (during summer afternoons for example)?
With nuclear you can't store excess electricity, you can't turn it up when needed. So you have to provide other forms of generation to provide for peak demand.
As Solomon points out, what got France into trouble was building too many nuclear plants, being forced to export the excess electricity to neighboring countries during low demand and import excess power during peak periods.
I have a few reservations about nuclear power, but certainly can see that it has a few advantages.
But it's not "clean" power when you have waste that has a half life of millions of years.
by skohayes on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 05:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: solomon's opposition to nuclear power (2.00 / 1)

I explained two ways to store it in my post that you responded to.  It is pretty obvious.

We could also change the cost of electricity during certain hours this will encourage energy use during off peak hours.  In Europe some people have timers on their washers and driers to run them at off peak hours. Manufactures that use electricity in their processes will be able to increase profits by running them at night.

Also, if we switch to electric cars, those cars will recharge at night during off peak hours, that will increase demand.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:33:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

61 percent of the population of France favors a co (2.00 / 1)


Ok, I want some source here, because I have NEVER heard that, and I'm french, and I can tell you that nuclear energy is very popular in france.

That's bullshit in its purest form. Who the hell is that "Carl Pope" guy?


by TaiChiMaster on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:33:53 PM EST

Re: 61 percent of the population of France favors (none / 0)

Yeah, seems like cherry-picking.  I've never heard of a poll saying that nuclear energy was unpopular in France.

France has, for the better part of the last century, been the beacon of nuclear energy generation worldwide - against a trend among most, but by no means all, of her neighbours. Nevertheless the mere persistence of France's exception has already helped to turn around public opinion in the West. A 2005 EU poll returned as much as 62 per cent votes to the advantage of nuclear power, up from 41 per cent in 2001. And in a recent poll a mere 30 per cent of Britons were against and 60 per cent in favour of nuclear energy. In nuclear-free Australia a public poll returned only 45 per cent in favour last March, down from 49 per cent in June 2006.

Lucky France, where for a long time polls returned a stable two-thirds majority for nuclear power. Some pundits even guess America, long known for her unique exceptionalism, while now on the right track, is roughly 50 years behind the French in realising that Western security is jeopardised by the reliance on imported energy.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp ?article=7377


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:44:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I was going to say something along those lines -- once all the plants are up it would be kind of dumb to oppose cheap, clean power.  Would they rather tear them all down and build twice as many coal-fired plants?


by semiquaver on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:48:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

There is NO reason to use Nuclear! That it! We have solar and wind and many more safe and clean alternatives. The American corporate world loves to centralize power and have exclusive control over it.  Thats why they love Nuclear, damn the risks and the alternatives it's all about having power over the users of electricity.


by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:36:12 PM EST

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Listen I love solar and wind but they are not the whole answer. Wind is far to expensive and unreliable. So is solar. ( although there are some recently touted improvements by Nanosolar, Inc.).

If it is true that solar is now cheaper than nuclear than that is clearly the answer but otherwise, I say go nuclear - zero carbon and it is reliable and safe.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:56:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Yes we can! Yes we can! Did you know we used horses before we used cars! We have to start at the begining and once we go towards Sol/wind etc. then faster than you can certify a DANGEROUS expensive Nuclear plant we will be well on our way to total energy independence!


by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:36:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

That is just wishful thinking.  Lot's of money has been spent on wind and solar.

Look at T. Boone Pickens' wind farm in Texas for example.  It is just very expensive.

Nanosolar has supposedly made a way cheaper solar panel but I don't know if this is real or hype.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:45:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Did you know the first 486 IBM personal computer coast ran a 6 mhz and cost over $6,000. Should we have made nuclear personal computers just because someone said making them faster and cheaper wasn't possible and wishfull thinking. The future of solar/wind etc. is right in front of us and we don't need to put it all at risk with nuclear! IMHO


by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:56:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

damn the risks and the alternatives it's all about having power over the users of electricity.
It's all about having power.  I'm absolutely for much more gov't sponsored research into renewable energy, but the reality is that today, the alternatives you mentioned just don't scale to the level we're accustomed to.  We can't put $30,000 of windmills and solar paneling in everyone's backyard, even if we did have the battery technology to store the juice at night.  Nuclear is the cleanest method we have right now of generating the power that we need, and it probably will be for at least 15-25 years.


by semiquaver on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:58:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It not worth the risks! We can do better than nuks (none / 0)


by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:38:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

We have 104 plants operating within the United States right now.  Chances are, you live within a few hundred miles of one.  If you fear nuclear power, opposing new plants that are much safer so that the old, potentially more dangerous ones can be retired seems like a bad idea.

If you were around during the pioneer days of air flight, you'd think that anyone who risked their life to fly in one of those failure-prone, rickety things must be out of his mind.  Would that attitude, one formed during the early, dangerous days of the science, be rational and pragmatic today?  Sometimes things are dangerous when they are new.  One of the functions of science is to make dangerous useful things safe and useful.


by semiquaver on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (2.00 / 2)

I'm with Al Gore on nuclear power:

Q: Let's turn briefly to some proposed solutions. Nuclear power is making a big resurgence now, rebranded as a solution to climate change. What do you think?

A: I doubt nuclear power will play a much larger role than it does now.

Q: Won't, or shouldn't?

A: Won't. There are serious problems that have to be solved, and they are not limited to the long-term waste-storage issue and the vulnerability-to-terrorist-attack issue. Let's assume for the sake of argument that both of those problems can be solved.

We still have other issues. For eight years in the White House, every weapons-proliferation problem we dealt with was connected to a civilian reactor program. And if we ever got to the point where we wanted to use nuclear reactors to back out a lot of coal -- which is the real issue: coal -- then we'd have to put them in so many places we'd run that proliferation risk right off the reasonability scale. And we'd run short of uranium, unless they went to a breeder cycle or something like it, which would increase the risk of weapons-grade material being available.

When energy prices go up, the difficulty of projecting demand also goes up -- uncertainty goes up. So utility executives naturally want to place their bets for future generating capacity on smaller increments that are available more quickly, to give themselves flexibility. Nuclear reactors are the biggest increments, that cost the most money, and take the most time to build.

In any case, if they can design a new generation [of reactors] that's manifestly safer, more flexible, etc., it may play some role, but I don't think it will play a big role.

It's just not a pragmatic solution.  I'm convinced that the only reason conservatives love nuclear power so much is that it gives them a free shot at liberals and environmentalists.  "Aha, you claim you want to get us off oil and coal, but you refuse to build any nuclear plants!  There's just nothing you liberals will accept!"


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:38:11 PM EST

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

We still have other issues. For eight years in the White House, every weapons-proliferation problem we dealt with was connected to a civilian reactor program. And if we ever got to the point where we wanted to use nuclear reactors to back out a lot of coal -- which is the real issue: coal -- then we'd have to put them in so many places we'd run that proliferation risk right off the reasonability scale. And we'd run short of uranium, unless they went to a breeder cycle or something like it, which would increase the risk of weapons-grade material being available.

This doesn't make sense, and never has.

It would be making weapons-grade fissile material available to us.  We already have tens of thousands of nuclear weapons, we don't need to sneak in any extra nuclear material.

The reason we don't use breeder reactors is to put ourselves into a better position to tell other countries they're not allowed to have breeder reactors, because it might lead to them obtaining weapons-grade material.

But you know what?  It hasn't worked, other countries don't care that we're not doing it, they do it anyway.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:47:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Personally, I thought his last point was the strongest.


by MeganLocke on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:59:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

I also don't agree with Gore on that point. I don't think that terrorists are foreign despotic countries would be getting material from American reactors.  

The nuclear waste issue is a good point. But I understand that modern reactors have reduced this dramatically.

I think it is important at least to have a good discussion about nuclear energy and not let old prejudices and fears cloud the discussion.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

I am against more weapons grade material being available regardless of who has it actually...


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Keep in mind that weapons-grade material is material that can also be used in a reactor to produce electricity.  Its only use isn't bombs.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:18:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Tell that to BinLaden! (none / 0)

We are constantly being told by the Repigs to be afraid of terrorists. Now when it comes to Nuks we are being told not to be afraid of terrorists! So naturally we should all be very, very afraid!


by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:48:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tell that to BinLaden! (none / 0)

Did you really just pull a "TERRISTS BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA"?

I'll cede the point if you tell me why terrorists would try to get nuclear/radioactive material from our reactors when they:

  • Could more easily get it from rogue states with clandestine nuclear programs or buy it off the black market
  • Could more easily steal it from hospitals which keep a ready supply of thorium for radiology
  • Haven't stolen any from France and Japan who already have reprocessing programs and reprocess a lot of fuel


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:55:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tell that to BinLaden! (none / 0)

What I'm saying is DON"T TRUST ANYTHING A REPIG ADVOCATES!. We have all the greatest minds we need to meet our energy needs without Nuks. I live near one and I don't like it one bit.


by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 05:09:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tell that to BinLaden! (none / 0)

In fact I live in Florida the SUNSHINE State, how ironic. In this state we need nuks like we need hurricanes!


by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 05:14:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tell that to BinLaden! (none / 0)

Well.  I'm sorry to hear that.  I myself live about a half hour drive away from Oak Ridge National Laboratory and I couldn't be happier about it.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 05:31:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

You know, I don't care what flak I get for this, but I thoroughly endorse McCain's energy plan, the 'Lexington Project'. When he sets a goal for energy independence by 2025 and lays out specific plans to achieve that goal, how am I suppose to say no to that? McCain spent the entire week laying plan after plan, which collectively is in my opinion very bold and exactly what America needs.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:17:04 PM EST

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Sure well have enough power to keep us going in Iraq for at least a hundred years, hell a thousand years. Did his plan eliminate all carbon emissions? Did you ever hear about a president who gave America a bill called "Clear skies"! Do't let yourself be conned by a neocon!


by eddieb on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Yes, nuclear energy has zero carbon emissions.


by dMarx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

It's long past time for a comprehensive energy policy.  Republicans have been pushing supply side answers for the last 2 decades with little success.  Drill more, build more plants, go to war.  Democrats have long been pushing demand side answers like COLA standards.  Republicans have driven all research and development overseas.  Everything from nuclear fission and fusion research to solar and wind development is done in Europe and Japan but not here.  

It's time for a comprehensive policy.  Nuclear power can and should play a part of it.  Unlike traditional reactors used by the French which took a submarine design and scaled it 100 or more times, modern fission reactors work on much smaller scale and have a correspondingly better safety record.  There has never been a nuclear accident on a submarine.  

Nonetheless, this problem is far too difficult and far too important to be left to a single industry to solve.  Both demand side and supply side remedies need to be applied in a comprehensive plan that includes:

1. research and development money for
   a.  nuclear fission
   b.  nuclear fusion
   c.  geothermal
   d.  wind
   e.  solar
   f.  coal gasification
   g.  oil shale
   h.  battery technology
   i.  anything else

  1. plans to implement these technologies as they exist today - infrastructure jobs
  2.  plans to phase out oil fueled power plants
  3.  increased COLA standards
  4.  tax rebates for using compact fluorescents and other energy savers
  5.  tax rebates for hybrids and electric vehicles

There may be a silver bullet for this problem, but even if there is, you don't find it looking at one solution at a time.  It's past time to pursue all the avenues, supply side, demand side, and put ideology aside.


by bigdem on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 05:31:55 PM EST

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (2.00 / 2)

At $10 billion per reactor, the cost of 45 reactors is $450 billion.  The opportunity cost of those reactors is $10,000 worth of energy "treatments" - insulation, weatherization, solar electric and hot water panels, personal wind, personal geothermal, etc. - for 45 million residences.  These "treatments" would create tens of thousands of good paying jobs, help to decentralize our power generation, permanently reduce our demand for energy, permanently reduce CO2 emissions, etc.


Those who forget the past can never remember why the same sh*t keeps happening.
by themikeaustin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 06:56:06 PM EST

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

Reading the posts and comments leads me to only one thing:  coal is our future.  

I say that only partly in jest.  Nuclear power can certainly be part of the solution and should be within our national energy policy.

Maybe we should take one step back and look at the goals of our energy policies.

1. Economical - The price of energy greatly effects all areas of the economy because energy is used to build and distribute things.

2. Environmental - We need to find the cleanest energy solutions available.

3. Defense - We need to keep energy available to all of America and consider where we spend our dollars for energy sources (IE OPEC).

If you wish to keep the costs of energy low you can not rely only on renewable energy.  Coal, Natural Gas, Oil and Nuclear have to remain on the table, at least in the short-mid terms.  This also would satisfy the defense angle because we have huge reserves of coal, natural gas and even oil within the US.

If your only care on energy policy is the environment than renewable are the only alternatives.   I would argue that renewable energy is a bit of a farce, because we do not yet know the unforeseen consequences of any of these sources.  Like the affect of huge wind farms on bird migration or even the affect of large drawing of energy from the earth's natural wind patterns.  Similarly you could question the use of solar polar and its affects on the earth's temperatures by not letting the energy from the sun be absorbed by the earth.  Read "law of conservation of energy" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatio n_of_energy

We should be exploring all options and have short, mid, and long term plans which tackle all three of these goals.


by Classical Liberal on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:06:57 PM EST

Do As Illinois Does! (none / 0)

France has a  lot nuclear plants ... so does Illinois. The Exeleon corp. runs a lot of plants in the state and they've been one of Obama's backers. Before you pound on McCain you might want to check Obama's position on nuclear power.


by alexmhogan on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:35:44 PM EST

Re: McCain And Graham: Do As The French Do! (none / 0)

This Lawrence Solomon fellow that Carl Pope cites is also a well known global warming denier.  I would look elsewhere for hard evidence that nuclear power is not a solution to our energy problems.  


by Trinhmaster on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:01:57 PM EST


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