Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad?

The Internet is changing the way we read and the way we think. A fascinating essay by Caleb Crain describes the different reasoning patterns of people in literate cultures and oral story-telling cultures. Even the languages and characters that make up our alphabet can affect the ways we think.

Crain and other scholars refer to the pre-literate societies, societies in which only the elite were literate, as "primary oralities." This is how they process information:

It's difficult to prove that oral and literate people think differently; orality, Havelock observed, doesn't "fossilize" except through its nemesis, writing. But some supporting evidence came to hand in 1974, when Aleksandr R. Luria, a Soviet psychologist, published a study based on interviews conducted in the nineteen-thirties with illiterate and newly literate peasants in Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. Luria found that illiterates had a "graphic-functional" way of thinking that seemed to vanish as they were schooled. In naming colors, for example, literate people said "dark blue" or "light yellow," but illiterates used metaphorical names like "liver," "peach," "decayed teeth," and "cotton in bloom." Literates saw optical illusions; illiterates sometimes didn't. Experimenters showed peasants drawings of a hammer, a saw, an axe, and a log and then asked them to choose the three items that were similar. Illiterates resisted, saying that all the items were useful. If pressed, they considered throwing out the hammer; the situation of chopping wood seemed more cogent to them than any conceptual category. One peasant, informed that someone had grouped the three tools together, discarding the log, replied, "Whoever told you that must have been crazy," and another suggested, "Probably he's got a lot of firewood." One frustrated experimenter showed a picture of three adults and a child and declared, "Now, clearly the child doesn't belong in this group," only to have a peasant answer:
Oh, but the boy must stay with the others! All three of them are working, you see, and if they have to keep running out to fetch things, they'll never get the job done, but the boy can do the running for them.

Illiterates also resisted giving definitions of words and refused to make logical inferences about hypothetical situations. Asked by Luria's staff about polar bears, a peasant grew testy: "What the cock knows how to do, he does. What I know, I say, and nothing beyond that!" The illiterates did not talk about themselves except in terms of their tangible possessions. "What can I say about my own heart?" one asked.

[snip]

Soon after this study, Ong synthesized existing research into a vivid picture of the oral mind-set. Whereas literates can rotate concepts in their minds abstractly, orals embed their thoughts in stories. According to Ong, the best way to preserve ideas in the absence of writing is to "think memorable thoughts," whose zing insures their transmission. In an oral culture, cliché and stereotype are valued, as accumulations of wisdom, and analysis is frowned upon, for putting those accumulations at risk. There's no such concept as plagiarism, and redundancy is an asset that helps an audience follow a complex argument. Opponents in struggle are more memorable than calm and abstract investigations, so bards revel in name-calling and in "enthusiastic description of physical violence." Since there's no way to erase a mistake invisibly, as one may in writing, speakers tend not to correct themselves at all. Words have their present meanings but no older ones, and if the past seems to tell a story with values different from current ones, it is either forgotten or silently adjusted. As the scholars Jack Goody and Ian Watt observed, it is only in a literate culture that the past's inconsistencies have to be accounted for, a process that encourages skepticism and forces history to diverge from myth.

I work in software, and have struggled recently with techniques for when and where to log off the Internet. We've all had nights going to bed bleary-eyed way past our bedtimes because we could not stop clicking and reading, clicking and reading.

So are we a more literate society, or with the advent of YouTube, are we moving to a post-literate one? Caleb Crain and his colleagues call us a post-literate society. Moving images compete with words, and though we know how to read words, the act of sinking into reading a paperback and skimming a powerpoint presentation is quite different.

Emotional responsiveness to streaming media harks back to the world of primary orality, and, as in Plato's day, the solidarity amounts almost to a mutual possession. "Electronic technology fosters and encourages unification and involvement," in McLuhan's words. The viewer feels at home with his show, or else he changes the channel. The closeness makes it hard to negotiate differences of opinion. It can be amusing to read a magazine whose principles you despise, but it is almost unbearable to watch such a television show. And so, in a culture of secondary orality, we may be less likely to spend time with ideas we disagree with.

Self-doubt, therefore, becomes less likely. In fact, doubt of any kind is rarer. It is easy to notice inconsistencies in two written accounts placed side by side. With text, it is even easy to keep track of differing levels of authority behind different pieces of information. The trust that a reader grants to the New York Times, for example, may vary sentence by sentence. A comparison of two video reports, on the other hand, is cumbersome. Forced to choose between conflicting stories on television, the viewer falls back on hunches, or on what he believed before he started watching. Like the peasants studied by Luria, he thinks in terms of situations and story lines rather than abstractions.

An article in this month's Atlantic Monthly by an author who noticed his own declining ability to sustain attention long enough to read novels, and said many writer friends have reported the same eroding attention span, explores how the Internet is changing the way we think. Is it making us smarter or dumber, or both? Because Internet surfing is faster, and we suck up and store more and more facts, the author Nicholas Carr posits:

In Google's world, the world we enter when we go online, there's little place for the fuzziness of contemplation. Ambiguity is not an opening for insight but a bug to be fixed.

Of course, I really do think I seek opposing opinions, but it's possible I do this much less frequently than I once did.

So I wonder MyDDers - what say you? Do you have a system for logging off and reading dead trees instead of pixels? Have you noticed an increase in intelligence or decrease, or both? Do you seek outside sources of information?

Thank you for your time. (I suspect many of you to thank me for my "concern.")


Poll
Opposing Points of View
I avoid them, as they are time wasters.
I try to seek them out when I have the time.
I know I should, but sometimes I can't bear it.
Everyone already agrees with me.
Catfish is a concern troll.
Ooga booga
Pie

Votes: 42
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


some people.... (2.00 / 4)

it seems just want to flame and attack one another (complete strangers online). v. odd.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:13:54 AM EST

The Atlantic article talks about that (2.00 / 3)

as does Caleb Crain on his blog. People of all ages and socioeconomic backgrounds tend to be more rude online than they are face-to-face.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:28:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Atlantic article talks about that (2.00 / 1)

cat rec ya dairy. and read about 20 of your previous comments and mojo'ed them all. Especially enjoyed the ones where you got TR'ed for opposing views


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Atlantic article talks about that (2.00 / 2)

This is actually a huge area of debate and there are many who would say that Crain (at least as presented here, haven't really read him) is off the mark (as are those Russian scientists).

Often times researchers go into such studies with preconceived notions of what is 'logical' or 'correct' and when the respondents don't live up to those definitions, they are deemed illogical or less intelligent or 'differently' intelligent. But if the researchers fail to account for their own bias, the results are difficult to trust. Take, in the example you give, the frustration of the Russians that the peasants wouldn't group the items the 'right' way. That frustration must have become embedded in the study itself, fostering its own biases.

An interesting book with sections that propose a counter-argument is S. Pinker's 'The Language Instinct.' Well worth a read for lots of reasons, but in parts he counters the notion that our language and how we use it qualitatively affects the way we actually think or perform in the world.

It's definitely an interesting discussion, and one that's almost endlessly fascinating to me. And I'm not saying your original post is 'wrong' . . . only that there are more possibilities out there.


by vadasz on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 02:32:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Indeed! (2.00 / 1)

and I am always suspicious of silly surveys that only look at one culture.

Also, re: colors, many cultures don't have nearly the same colors that Americans do. English didn't have orange for ages!


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Atlantic article talks about that (2.00 / 1)

It's easier to be an asshole to words than to people.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:48:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 4)

Recced. Not just for posting a thought-provoking diary, but also for making me realize I really have to shut this off and get to work.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:15:27 AM EST

It's so hard though! (2.00 / 1)

Especially since my work relies on me being at the computer. I shut it off, I don't work.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's so hard though! (2.00 / 1)

No, mine does too. I'm considering just making another Windows profile with NONE of the same applications or settings except what is vital for work. If I didn't have all those lovely Firefox Live Bookmarks in front of my face, maybe I wouldn't feel so compelled to check them.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:07:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 3)

I came here for the opposing points of view.  Now, though, instead of being constructive, many of the opposing viewpoints seem to be destructive.


by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:17:26 AM EST

How do you discern the difference? (2.00 / 1)

I would love to find a guideline somewhere.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:23:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do you discern the difference? (2.00 / 1)

Oh, I don't know.  When the purpose of a diary or a post is basically to tell someone or some group of other Democrats off, then that seems counterproductive.


by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:35:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do you discern the difference? (2.00 / 2)

When the purpose of a diary or a post is basically to tell someone or some group of other Democrats off

Come on bro, I know you are capable of higher thinking and better grasp. shoot the media said you fall in that demographic. :D


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:40:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do you discern the difference? (2.00 / 1)

I use the always reliable "Itsthemedia" test for evaluating opposing viewpoints. Opposing viewpoints that agree with me are good. Opposing viewpoints that do not are bad. ;-)


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:24:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 4)

how can anything said here be destructive if it is said among free thinkers?

it is a closed society where thinking is pounded top down...


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:34:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 2)

I would say that statements meant to antagonize, annoy, embarrass, or demoralize fit that description.  I think we all know the difference between an honest debate and something a lot less civil.


by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:38:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 2)

I would say that statements meant to antagonize, annoy, embarrass, or demoralize fit that description.  I think we all know the difference between an honest debate and something a lot less civil.

The problem is --- Democracies are built on such statements. go figure!

For if they that came before us, were not to embarrass the evils of segregation. That which enjoyed/ had a majority view in this country, we would have not had civil rights


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:48:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

Oh, right.  I forgot that diaries about knee pads and KY jelly advanced the Great American Experiment.  Or that poster yesterday who asked if somewhere, "deep down," people enjoyed "giving it to the B---."

Seriously.  We all know that there are opposing points of view, and then there are things that are out of bounds.  


by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:58:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 3)


Seriously.  We all know that there are opposing points of view, and then there are things that are out of bounds.

No they don't advance it and thats the point i.e.  among free thinkers/society they don't more importantly pull it down.  

Views are never out of bounds, just some actions are (civil lawful society and all).

Look have you heard "we rather let 9 criminals go free before we ever convict 1 single innocent man"?

What we have here on mydd is the flip-- 9 of the dissenters on policies are being told "you're racist, trolls, republicans", because of that 1 " graphical " view?

Look images are hurled everywhere. I actually thought it was some good art work in that image you cite. Because my free thinking mind was not changed by its messaging-to go run out and vote republican because of it.  Was yours?


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:18:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 3)

What we have here on mydd is the flip-- 9 of the dissenters on policies are being told "you're racist, trolls, republicans", because of that 1 " graphical " view?

Oh, poor baby, you were called a Republican for attacking Obama and defending McCain.

My own previous account (the one that didn't end in the digit 2) was banned altogether from commenting for defending Obama and attacking Clinton. Actually not even for attacking Clinton, just for mentioning how Baracks's bad judgment in regards to Wright is the same situation as Hillary's bad judgment regarding an adulterer like Bill.

This was a "Republican-style attack against Hillary" it seems, so I was first warned, then banned altogether when I complained about the unfair warning.

So I'd rather you put your complaining in proper context, about how the Obama bashers are supposedly unfairly treated. Jerome showed obscene favour to Hillary supporters and now he's showing obscene favour to McCain supporters.

And yet you complain about how some people called you a Republican. When you're actually banned for a comment against Obama then you may actually have something to complain about.


by Aris Katsaris2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 06:05:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is ... (2.00 / 1)

the second comment I have read of yours today, and it is the second comment where you have mentioned that your first account was banned because you called Bill an adulterer.  You seem to 'wear' it like a 'badge of honor' or something.

Really, who cares?  If you insist on telling everyone here that you were already banned yet managed to slip back in under the guise of a new name, does that improve your 'chits'?  

Yes, some folks will do or say anything to denigrate the Clintons.  We get it, you are one of them, but the repetition of your 'badge' creds is a bit .. well.. designed to inflame.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:23:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is ... (none / 0)

Jerome bans Obama supporters for being Obama supporters.  End of discussion.

That's the only thing that can actually be called suppression of any sort.

What people generally complain about here is getting negative feedback for their views.  Someone says something that I think is stupid, I say something back and get accused of censorship.  Which is kind of "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" stuff.  Whatever.


by MeganLocke on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:30:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is ... (none / 0)

Did you notice that in all the cases where I mentioned this pesky little fact, it was in response to some whining Clintonista claiming he or she has being oppressed merely because some person called them a troll?

Oh, the horror. Somebody accused them of something. Obviously Obama supporters are like the Taliban or the Nazis, because only Talibans or Nazis would call other people names.

Whiny fricking babies. They pretty much control the site, Jerome bans everyone who actually challenges them or says an actual bad word about their beloved divine Clintons (while ofcourse Obama is bashed in two out of three diaries), and yet some people actually occasionally call them trolls and for that reason they all go "help, help, I'm being oppressed".

And in regards to Bill Clinton -- he is an adulterer, no matter how many times I get banned for mentioning it.


by Aris Katsaris2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 05:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well you do. (2.00 / 1)

but sadly....  many others do not.

and if i am being blunt - it would well serve people like you to call out trolls of all shapes and colours - not just the ones you agree with (BTW - im having a huge deja vu as i write this - seriously).


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:57:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well you do. (2.00 / 3)

Point taken.


by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:59:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Among free-thinkers... (2.00 / 1)

I agree (FOR THE MOST PART) with the minimal censorship model of blogging.  However, the way things evolved over time is that political blogs tend to attract disruptive people who don't want to argue their positions sincerely but, rather, would prefer to provoke fights for their own entertainment, like Eris tossing the Golden Apple to the Gods.  I know I have felt the temptation to do that on certain blogs before.  (And given in to it, in a masterful performance-art fashion.)  

Eric Berne's book on Transactional Analysis, Games People Play pretty much lays out all the basic dynamics of trollishness.  I found this just googling for "Let's you and him fight," the one I was searching for.  But they all are used in trolling, actually.  I can think of many examples.

Contrast with rational (mathematical) games

Transactional game analysis is fundamentally different from rational or mathematical game analysis in the following senses:

   * The players do not always behave rationally in transactional analysis, but behave more like real people.
    * Their motives are often ulterior

[edit] Some commonly found games

Here are some of the most commonly found themes of games described in Games People Play by Eric Berne:

   * YDYB: Why Don't You, Yes But. Historically, the first game discovered.
    * IFWY: If It Weren't For You
    * WAHM: Why does this Always Happen to Me? (setting up a self-fulfilling prophecy)
    * SWYMD: See What You Made Me Do
    * UGMIT: You Got Me Into This
    * LHIT: Look How Hard I've Tried
    * ITHY: I'm Only Trying to Help You
    * LYAHF: Let's You and Him Fight (staging a love triangle)
    * NIGYYSOB: Now I've got you, you son of a bitch
    * RAPO: A woman falsely cries 'rape' or threatens to

Berne argued that games are not played logically; rather, one person's Parent state might interact with another's Child, rather than as Adult to Adult.

Games can also be analysed according to the Karpman drama triangle, that is, by the roles of Persecutor, Victim and Rescuer. The 'switch' is then when one of these having allowed stable roles to become established, suddenly switches role. The Victim becomes a Persecutor, and throws the previous Persecutor into the Victim role, or the Rescuer suddenly switches to become a Persecutor ("You never appreciate me helping you!").

This is the graphic that I find myself working from while trying to cope with the aftermath of the Obama/Clinton campaign drama: little Adult-Adult interaction and lots of drama.

I'm on a lot of blogs and forums.  I've been on DailyKos AND MyDD from the very earliest days, years now.  I'm also active on a number of other non-political forums, and I actually have more interesting and free-wheeling discussions on them than I can have on a site like this one, simply because there is no expectation of political solidarity in belonging to a gardening forum or a coffee forum or a gaming forum.  On sites like those, you can argue about politics with Republicans on equal terms.  Only in recent years have the Internet's political demographics changed enough to make it comfortable enough for liberals (oops, progressives) to debate conservatives without being swamped by the overwhelming number of angry conservatives.  We used to be a minority.

So, I'm all for free-thinking wheelin' and dealin' discussions with people I disagree with on all kinds of things, as long as they are honest and above board and not terribly stupid.  I just don't have the same patience when it comes to dishonest crybaby arguments.

For instance, I don't see much point in discussing how Obama's a bad candidate since now he's the only candidate we have.  Before he was the candidate, it might have made sense.  Now, it just seems like a chicken running around with it's head cut off.  People are still arguing against a candidate when the nomination has been decided.

It would be much more honest for people to say, "I won't vote for Obama because of X," especially if X isn't something like, "Because my feelings are hurt."  At least that would be a clear position with a point.  


by Dumbo on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 02:50:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Let's You and Him Fight " (2.00 / 2)

perfectly describes the role of the media in the Dem primary. They are so good at playing the innocent spectator while actually being the perpetrator, it amazes me sometimes. Then they stage their little retrospectives when the fight is over, carefully writing themselves out of the story.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:21:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"See what you made me do." (none / 0)

I hear that one a lot.  "You were so mean to my candidate that I'm going to have to vote for McCain now, so there!"


by Dumbo on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:08:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Read this comment 3x, bookmarked it (2.00 / 1)

very enlightening.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 02:28:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How else would we find out shite like this? (2.00 / 1)

www.maplight.org/FISA_june08

HOUSE DEMS WHO CHANGED THEIR VOTE TO SUPPORT FISA BILL, GIVING IMMUNITY TO TELCOS, RECEIVED, ON AVERAGE, $8,359 IN PAC CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VERIZON, AT&T, AND SPRINT

more....


by suzieg on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:14:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

When one of the participants is being disingenuous or otherwise has a hidden agenda.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:08:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 4)

You anticipated my "concern" and thus short circuited my vote of choice in the poll.  I guess I'll settle for ooga booga.

I think opposing points of view are immeasurably valuable to having a complete discussion.  Unfortunately, finding sincere and non-malicious opposing viewpoints can be difficult to find online.  And we all know about MyDD's very recent difficulties with sincere debate.


by hello world on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:20:42 AM EST

Recent? I would say "current" (2.00 / 2)

difficulties.


by aggieric on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:25:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 6)

If we don't seek out opposing points of view, it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking there aren't any.


No Way, No How, No McCain!
by GFORD on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:20:46 AM EST

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 3)

Real thinkers seek out real thinkers who disagree with them in some form as that is the only way to learn.

In science all knowledge comes from disagreement.

Its is only in a cult that disagreement is not a virtue in others if done in a civil manner.

Fox and MSNBC are not civil or honest in how they show the world.  I find George Will very good as I disagree with his conclusions but find his thought process very interesting.

For those who are old school and watched Gergon and Shields on the old McNeil Lauer news Hour it was amazing that you had to watch over and over to figure out which one was on which side because they both were so truthful on who had a good day and both smart enough to know who had a good day that it was difficult to see which was conservative.

I am much more worried by the snark craze where rather than try and reason pundits try and pretend to be from the opposite line of thought and fraudulently lead people to their way of thinking.  THAT is a waste of time.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:22:46 AM EST

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (1.66 / 3)

the snark craze where rather than try and reason pundits try and pretend to be from the opposite line of thought and fraudulently lead people to their way of thinking.

As the man says, "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

I think you mean concern trolling.


by spunkmeyer on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:31:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 4)

No its much more common on Dailykos.com than here but its very common for them to make a diary with a title that is intentionally the reverse of what the diary says.

Some view this as a sophisticated version of the simplistic tell the truth and be open about where you are coming from old school method of persuading.

Even the concern troll bit is snarky as you insinuate that my argument is not valid because its from a view point of being "concerned".

Seeking to dismiss without cognitive activity is almost always a bad choice.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:38:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

Thank you for quoting me.


by InigoMontoya on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:41:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

And regarding snark you may want to reread the definition and note the word sarcastic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Note the section "Inversion of truth"


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:41:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (1.75 / 4)

Dude, snark doesn't mean pretending you're a Democrat when you're a Republican.  It means being sarcastic.  Hence making a "snarky" comment.

Pretending you're a Democrat when you're a Republican, in order to push your opinions on supposedly unsuspecting Dems, is called concern trolling.  This joint is busting at the seams with it.

As the author of this diary demonstrates repeatedly.


by spunkmeyer on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:51:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 3)

Do you think Mydd has sooooo much of the democratic party mindshare that republicans hang out here?

Seriously that would be as much a waste of time as if you or I hung out at Freeper land.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:08:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

I imagine quite a few people from here actually do hang out at FreeRepublic.  Whether it's to watch the insanity or because they are actually Republicans in disguise, I can't say for sure.


by ProgressiveDL on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (1.50 / 4)

Pretending you're a Democrat when you're a Republican, in order to push your opinions on supposedly unsuspecting Dems, is called concern trolling.  This joint is busting at the seams with it.

As the author of this diary demonstrates repeatedly.

Besides euphemisms of all connotations of the word "troll". do u spunk ever have a thought we would enjoy reading ?

Oh my! I guess that makes you a concern troll  about concern trolls.


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:41:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The term you are looking for (2.00 / 2)

is "metatroll"(c). I just made that up, that's why I copyrighted it. :)


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:29:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My daddy used to say... (2.00 / 3)

The days of the literate society started to decline, was the day we stopped subscribing to newspapers at home.

It can be amusing to read a magazine whose principles you despise, but it is almost unbearable to watch such a television show.


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:23:26 AM EST

Agreed - flipping through a paper is (2.00 / 2)

serendipity - you stumble across stories that you would not have clicked on. But they catch your eye, you read a few graphs, and learn a few things.

If I knew paper recycling was really advanced, and we really weren't murdering trees in an unsustainable way, I would get the paper daily.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:26:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agreed - flipping through a paper is (2.00 / 1)

We get both the LAT and NYT and the stereoptic experience is worth it.  THE ATLANTIC is probably the best written magazine we get.  SMITHSONIAN, sad to say, has dumbed itself down from where it was 30 years ago.


by InigoMontoya on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:40:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My daddy used to say... (2.00 / 4)

I think the real problem is in the old days only the educated could play.  Finding the levers of discourse mostly involved knowing the power brokers.

Then came newspapers and there was a gate keeper in the op ed column who allowed some views to reach the masses and filtered others out.

Then came the internet and everyone got a say.

Problem is ~50% of people are below average.

And whats worse some people really don't make up their own minds.  So now instead of getting highly filtered content we are getting a sewer full of unfiltered idiot talk.  And among the "filtered" streams of data their is a new found love of bias that threatens to wreck news with the likes of FOX and MSNBC.

But ultimately its talking to stupid people that wastes time.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:34:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I usually check out on the weekends (2.00 / 4)

and have logged in less and less during the week, since the end of the primaries.  It seems there's little room left online for genuine debate and discourse.  I imagine that, well before the general election arrives, I'll have checked out completely.


by aggieric on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:27:51 AM EST

Re: I usually check out on the weekends (2.00 / 2)

SO you just log back on to gratuitously hide rate me for pointing out a redundancy?  Thanks for showing up, I guess.  


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:35:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's your interpretation of (2.00 / 2)

your comment, of course.

We're usually generous in our interpretations of ourselves and find it shocking when others interpret us differently.


by aggieric on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:50:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's your interpretation of (none / 0)

Please share yours.  I've never been HR'd before, so you must have quite a unique perspective and it represents a novel experience for me.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:56:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Aside from the fact that your (none / 0)

comment was snide and obnoxious (if it was supposed to be snark, it missed) it didn't fit the guidelines of being a constructive addition to the conversation.  

For the record, I didn't uprate dtaylor's comment, to which you were replying, because it had already been HRd - had it not been already I've have considered HRing it too, for the same reason - not being a constructive addition to the conversation.

And also for the record, I went back and removed my HR on your comment.  Not because I think I was wrong to HR in the first place, but because I neglected to look back over my comments for a couple of days and didn't see your request for an explanation.  I entirely agree with Canadian Gal that you deserved a reason and since I neglected to respond to you with that reason in timely fashion, I changed my rating.


by aggieric on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 11:33:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Aside from the fact that your (none / 0)

Interesting take on the guidelines.  I have to say that if  'not being a constructive addition' grounds for HR, hardly a comment would escape that fate at the hands of someone.  You found my comment 'snide' and 'obnoxious.'  Fine.  As you have noticed my affection for words, both 'high falutin' and otherwise, the technical term for that response is hyperbole.  I'm sorry you found it so egregiously distasteful, as I found your assumption of 'we'.  And that comment was not a response to dtaylor's comment, but to the diary.  So please do not implicate me in any flame wars.  I never asked for equal application of HR.  I reserve that for unambiguously offensive offerings that are blatantly racist, misogynist, or inflammatory.  Few comments on this site meet that standard in my opinion.  I find the attempt to silence or censor things simply because they annoy or merit general disapproval to be oppressive and inappropriate.  I sincerely hope our next encounter is a more productive one.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 11:58:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's your interpretation of (2.00 / 1)

Alright, since you refuse to explain your interpretation of the site's rating rules, I will have to assume you simply HR comments you don't like.  And exceedingly loose interpretation and one that certainly gets in the way of the reasoned debate you seem to advocate.  I'll resist the urge to simply pick a few random comments of yours to HR by your own ambiguous criteria of personal taste.  No sense augmenting the lack of reason you propagate here.  But allow me to make a friendly suggestion.  Addressing someone in second person and then responding in first person plural is and form and possibly unethical.  Who is the 'we' you speak for against the 'you' whom you exclude?  Perhaps more importantly, it just comes off as condescending and pedantic.  Furthermore, your invocation of the general functions as base obfuscation.  It may seem like it absolves you from addressing the particular, but it just comes off as an inelegant side step.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:19:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i think you are entitled to your answer... (2.00 / 2)

but if i may ask strummerson - what happened to you?  

when you first joined, your posts were thoughtful and worthy of debate.  now (from the little that i have seen) you seem engaged in this mindless nonsense troll hunting and flame wars.  sorry if i am overstepping, but i just wondered.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:27:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Like hunting ants with a can of Raid (2.00 / 2)

I know I got in troll hunting mode -- trying to weed out the enemies of Hillary -- and it was hard to step back.

Especially when you feel your side is outnumbered.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i think you are entitled to your answer... (2.00 / 2)

Not at all.  I welcome the query.  I think you'll find if you look at my recent comments that they represent a mix.  Generally, I engage with depth where there is depth to be engaged.  Occasionally, I confront something that seems particularly unhelpful and move on.  These latter comments are generally brief and a bit ironic.  I hardly think that they constitute engagement in flame wars or troll hunting.  Often I ignore, but occasionally I confront without getting sucked in.  Perhaps I made a mistake here and will consider your question as a caution.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:34:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

well - in fact reputations are important. (2.00 / 1)

here at mydd.  and from my perspective (albeit a limited one) a lot of good people here who i often disagree with suddenly seem to spam diaires, or engage in trollish bevaiour themselves. yet right now there is a clear troll diary bashing HRC and no one save for me has called it what it was.

if we want discourse and unity we all need to pitch in - no?


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:41:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well - in fact reputations are important. (2.00 / 2)

I see what you're saying now.  I had skimmed the diary in question and did not read the last few sentences, which I assume is what you took issue with.  Yes, not useful at all.


by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:55:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

rfahey - you're a class act. ;) (2.00 / 1)


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 02:06:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: rfahey - you're a class act. ;) (2.00 / 1)

We all need a kick in the pants once in a while.  :)


by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 02:10:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, I credit you with an (none / 0)

attempt to toss in every high falutin' word and phrase you can think of, here.  Righteous indignation always sounds better that-a-ways.


by aggieric on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 11:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 2)

opposing view points: good. unless they are the rude  fictitious based ones.

we need them. otherwise we all stay as clueless as we were before-

[the internet is either the best invention ever (thank you Al Gore aha) or the worst (serving as the modern day destruction of novels); depends on how you look at it. I feel bad that books are seldom read;]


by alyssa chaos on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:35:11 AM EST

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

You know, Nietzsche's utopia was nothing but the ubermensch (not in the Hitler sense) standing on hills challenging each other to be better.  But that, of course, requires that we search out opposing, challenging viewpoints.

Flip through Bill Bishop's the Big Sort - everything in our society is becoming personalized.  I was forced to read Rand, Rorty and Foucault, and I have come to appreciate how they challenged me.  But how easy is it to avoid them now?


by ejintx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:43:09 AM EST

The Big Sort (2.00 / 1)

I will check it out. I'll add it to my pile of other recently purchased books that I haven't cracked open.

Sometimes I secretly hope the telecoms win, and our Internet access is curtailed a bit.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:58:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Big Sort (2.00 / 1)

I ran across it in the Book Store, bought it and got through it pretty quickly.  It's part research, part anecdote and part amazing.  It taught me a thing or two about why I liked and didn't like the places I used to live.  But, my favorite chapter, is the last one which talks about the death of the middle due to  the sorting that goes on - and I found myself part of that middle.  Upsetting but educational.

Nowadays, I force myself away from the computer - especially at night if I can.  I try to do more volunteer activities that make me go outside, because otherwise, you find excuses not to.  So, I hear you.


by ejintx on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:55:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 3)

We've all had nights going to bed bleary-eyed way past our bedtimes because we could not stop clicking and reading, clicking and reading.

It's like you're sitting behind me. I'm having exactly such a night.

I was once an avid reader, 3-4 days per novel, pretty voracious. About a month ago my wife purchased the new book by my fav author (Iain Banks woo). I can't get through more than 5 pages before dozing off. My attention span is shot.


by Neef on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:51:57 AM EST

Coping with the Internet (2.00 / 3)

how to manage it, so it doesn't manage you. That's a self-help seminar I'd pay to attend.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:59:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"attend"? (2.00 / 1)

I'm sure there's one online. We should Google it.

^_^


by Neef on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:13:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Recommended (2.00 / 2)

just for the brilliant discussion of Caleb Crain's essay and the use of it in a blogosphere context.  My hat is off to you, Catfish, even though I may or may not agree with you about many other things.  I bookmarked the Crain article for later reading.

I find the article useful in a couple of contexts.  

As a fan of both Joseph Campbell and the Bible, it interests me to know that there should be such a huge fundamental difference in the analytical methods of pre-literate people.  It puts some things into an interesting light.  

And this part leapt out at me:

Words have their present meanings but no older ones, and if the past seems to tell a story with values different from current ones, it is either forgotten or silently adjusted. As the scholars Jack Goody and Ian Watt observed, it is only in a literate culture that the past's inconsistencies have to be accounted for, a process that encourages skepticism and forces history to diverge from myth.

My grad work was in an area of artificial intelligence that involved something called non-monotonic modal logic.  Various agents know parts of the truth about the world and can share that information, like poker players showing each other their cards.  In trying to model that, though, we keep running into a problem where new facts contravene old facts.  Traditional logic engines like Prolog get a tummy-ache when you give them a new fact that is different from the facts it already has.  Let me give you an example.

Fact 1. A is greater than B.
Fact 2. B is greater than C.
Fact 3. C is greater than D.
Fact 4. D is greater than A.

A traditional AI program can process the first three statements just fine, but when you get to the fourth, rather than storing it for later use, it just says NO.  That cannot be.  It is a contradiction.

But normal people DO hold multiple contradictory beliefs without attempting to resolve them consistently.  Even when we know they are inconsistent, we pick and choose subsets of the facts we believe and try to use them.  Traditional AI languages do not.  A human being would process the four facts above, realize something is wrong, but set it all aside for some other time without trying to make it all fit right now.

I've had too much coffee, obviously, because I'm going to get deep here...  Short digression.

There's an interesting Pulitzer winning book: Godel Escher Bach - An Eternal Golden Braid, by Douglas Hofstadter, that brings together a number of separate disciplines (music, formal languages, mathematics, the nature of intelligence) and shows a common link.  It is through our ability to process language that we can understand mathematics and music.  They both involve substitution and pattern recognition.  For instance 2 * (3 + 4) can be substituted as 2 * 7 can be substituted as 14 using formal rules.  Or a sentence in English can be recognized if it fits the pattern Noun-verb-noun correctly.  

When we learn to read and write (see, this goes back to the subject), we learn these left-brain rules of transformation in language.  Words become discrete tools that fall into categories.  Words from certain categories can only be used in conjunction with other words based on syntax rules.  It shapes all our thinking in profound ways.  

So it shouldn't surprise us that the early AI models were all based on the same linear formal language approach.  And yet those models can't process inconsistent facts very well.  If it's inconsistent, it's all wrong.  That isn't the way real people think.  If we did, we wouldn't be able to learn new things.

Getting tired... Had a much longer point to make, but it's getting too thick, heh.


by Dumbo on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:38:44 AM EST

Bookmarked this comment (2.00 / 1)

This is a nice and dense one.

Joseph Campbell is somebody I'd like to know more about, he is referenced frequently in politics, storytelling, mythmaking.

AI - is the AI community aware of this problem, and are they working to incorporate the inconsistent facts? How long ago were you studying AI? Do you think Google founders Larry and Sergey contemplate this stuff?


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 02:38:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 2)

Love the diary and the research you quoted on different thinking patterns for literate and illiterate people is interesting. It reminds me a little of the part of Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs, and Steel", where he talks about his New Guinea native friends. They know nothing about anything we would consider "smart", but they know every plant, animal, and rock in their habitat, how each can be used, etc. They are still thinking with human level intellect, but their environment channels the patterns of their thought.

You left out the best answer from your poll though:

Opposing points of view -- I'm against them. That's why I call them "opposing points of view"!


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:43:06 AM EST

One thing that's being missed (2.00 / 2)

is the medium for discussion. This is a political blog where differences of opinions or ideas are expected to happen. BUT, this is also a progressive blog with the purpose for furthering the Democratic agenda.

That being said, not all discourse will be treated equal. If a hardcore Republican came here and was repeatedly bashing the Democratic nominee, he or she won't last very long because (hopefully) it won't be tolerated.

At THIS point, now that we have a nominee, hopefully the same standard is applied to everyone. That's not to say that faithful Democrats can't express occasional disagreements about this or that. But when the very theme of your existence is based around destructive means then it becomes a problem.  


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:20:21 AM EST

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 2)

Interesting.  I was supporting John Edwards until I LISTENED to a debate (New Hampshire) on the radio as opposed to watching it on TV. It was an entirely different experience.  I heard the candidates much  more clearly. I listened more astutely. I really heard them, and it was very, very clear who the most substantive and competent candidate was (Clinton) and I switched in that moment. It was a real epiphany.

(Conversely, it was clear who the weakest was: Obama).

So many on this site say or imply that this site is not only for Democrats only but for like-minded Democrats only and any critics will be unwelcome, viciously attacked (by the uniters, no less), etc.

How odd to have listened to Democrats the last eight years fighting Bush's culture of quashing dissent, attacking critics, insisting that all should be heard, that dissent is important, that criticism of America is NOT treason, etc., only to do an about face on all of those things now.


by Juno on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:49:53 AM EST

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

Make sure to add, in your opinion, because i find it odd how all these people who think HRC was the best candidate always have to put down Obama to do it. there are some of the same as BHO supporters, but they far less often go on and on like you no quarter types.


by Dog Chains on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:32:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

Hogwash.  Obama supporters were BRUTAL to Clinton and her supporters. It didn't even stop after he'd won the nomination, so give me a break.

Independent of Clinton or Edwards or anyone, I do not think Obama is a good candidate for president.  He was always my least favorite, from the beginning when I supported Richardson, although I was more neutral about him than negative.  My negative feelings about him have only grown as I've listened and watched him and the media and his movement.

It has nothing to do with Clinton. She's out.

And he WAS the weakest in that debate and all the others. That is simply a fact.  Obama is a personality phenomenon.  I'm tired and leery of personality politics.  He makes me very, very nervous, and I mean as president.

Republicans and Obama supporters seem to think that no bad word should be said of a fellow Republican or Obama.

They have that in common.

I'll be more critical and objective in my thinking, thank you.


by Juno on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:37:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

I don't care what is said about him, it's not my job to. What annoys me is the, I'm definitely right, what I say is fact, you are wrong for supporting him because I think he's weak, but I'm not attacking type rants like yours right here. You're not really being critical at all, and your lack of undestanding about life is a little scary. And as I said, I have seen certain supporters on both sides go silly, but unfortunately you're unable to admit this because unlike me, you have no critical thinking skills (see, you're not the only one that can play that petulant little kids game).


by Dog Chains on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:45:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

Let me make sure I've got this right:

You say I have no understanding of life...but I'm the one who is saying I know everything and think I'm right and everyone else is wrong?

Okay.

(Lol).

And it wasn't Clinton supporters trumpeting happy, happy change and let's all get along and then turning around and calling fellow Democrats trolls and other vile things.  Okay?  It was Obama supporters doing that.

They all want change...until THEY want to keep the status quo.

And it's YOU attacking me because YOU think I should like Obama and that fact that I do not can only possibly be because I supported someone else. Any and all dislike of Obama is purely for political reasons, according to his supporters. It can't possibly be because some people see some disturbing trends.  No!

Obama hubris.  I've had enough hubris.

How 'bout that horrendous presidential seal thing? That's something Bush campaign staffers would have come up with!


by Juno on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:54:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

He's human, he makes mistakes, that presidential seal thing being one of them. As I said, I could care less whether you like him or not, but it's the general demeanor of you and the No Quarter crew that is shocking. I didn't agree with some of what HRC did, yet I can see why people support her. I don't agree with McCain, but I don't act like people who support him are frothing loons (unless they claim to be liberals, then I think they are crazies since he doesn't have a liberal bone in his body). And I've seen Clinton supporters call him everything from Barky to the antichrist, so what world are you lviing in? Your little bubble doesn't allow you to see that, and that's unfortunate, the world is a very big place, and there are very important issues facing the world and we have 2 choices of where to go, I'm choosing a different path led by someone Columbia and Harvard educated, successful, and full of ideals that I hold true based on his words and his 12 year voting record. not more of the same.


by Dog Chains on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:01:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

His 12-year voting record is full of capitulation (FISA, the war) and NOT voting.

And if you're going to defend behavior of Obama supporters by saying, "Well, they do it too", 1) Stop accusing someone else of behaving childishly; 2) stop with the Obama is about change crap.

That's all I'm saying.  My issue isn't about the attacks, per se.  Politics is nasty.  My issue is with the BS about Obamans wanting change. They clearly do not.

The presidential seal thing wasn't a mistake. It was a symptom and an example of the hubris of that campaign, and even worse, how they have adopted very similar tactics that Bush's staff used to get him elected, and it gives me the creeps.


by Juno on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:19:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

Btw, in my original post here, I state only FACTS.

You don't actually refute them. You just go the Bush route and attack personally.

So much for change.

But feel free to refute the FACTS in my post.  It is a FACT that any criticism of Obama is met with accusations of being trolls.  It is a FACT that a diary here did tell critics of Obama to go to Red State (again, the all-too-common theme of insisting that critics of Obama's can't possibly be Democrats).

Care to refute these facts? They are not my opinion, as you claim.


by Juno on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:56:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

See, you think it's a fact that he was weak in debates, I think 50% of people disagree so it couldn't possibly be "fact". I would think fact would have at least 75% agreement rate, but that's just me. As far as the other facts, people say stupid things on both sides, again you haven't once acknowledged that, it's all so one sided. And even this fact comes with a caveat that unfortunately here at a D site, it is often hard to understand how someone who considers themselves a D thinks those who support the D nominee are "incapable of critical thought" and "attacking" them for pointing out the disconnect.


by Dog Chains on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

It is NOT my opinion that Obama was weak in the debates.  That was well-known and reported on often, including by media that supported Obama and his own campaign.

His stuttering and stammering and deer-caught-in-headlights look were widely mentioned and seen (by those actually looking and listening and not awestruck by the latest deity), and there was a general concensus, including by his own camp, that Obama needed to work on his debating skills.

FACT.


by Juno on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:14:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 2)

Your views of "opinion" and what you describe as "fact" intrigue me.  I think I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.


by hello world on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:23:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/a rticle/0,28804,1654198_1654197_1654206,0 0.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articl e/0,9171,1718542,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/a rticle/0,28804,1694387_1694389_1694378,0 0.html

I just took 3 examples from Time to disprove your "everyone but you obama loons" believes he stinks at debates. Of course the second part of your point is easy to talk about, everyone thinks they should improve  on things, otherwise you end up stagnant. By the way, you show yourself real clear with the deity comment, posted directly after I said he's human and makes errors, sorry, I didn't think admitting that would classify me as deity worshipping but that's just me, i try to make SENSE!


by Dog Chains on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:25:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

Another Obama tactic:

Make a vague statement of humanness: Obama is not perfect, Obama makes mistakes, I disagree with Obama...blah, blah, blah, then set about bashing the hell out of people who criticize Obama on specific issues.

It's a ploy.  I've see it before.  


by Juno on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:32:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 2)

Thanks for proving my point!! Nothing I could possibly say could justify my support of the nominee, why again are you at a D site if you can't see anything redeemable about a D Senator or any of his supporters? i like how you didn't address my key point, you said he was a deity in my eyes, I said he erred, no would i actually be able to admit a deity made an error? Wouldn't the world cease to exist (Dogma reference in case you don't get it). It's too much fun battling wits with someone completely unarmed. If you want, I'll send you a buck, go buy yourself a clue and then maybe I'll speak again to you. Good day!


by Dog Chains on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:37:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

I've never said anything about you personally or your support for Obama.

I have expressed why I think Dems have made a mistake.

It is YOU who has attacked me personally.

Let's be clear about that.


by Juno on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:40:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

Please point to where I've ever said "Everyone but you Obama loons", which you even put in quotes.

Please point to where I even said EVERYONE in any context.

You can't.

You have to make stuff up.

Pretty weak.

And why is Mark Halperin's take on the debates fact, not opinion, but mine is opinion, not fact?

Care to explain that?


by Juno on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:44:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

ONE guy???

ONE guy??

That's your evidence???

ROFL!


by Juno on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:46:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

So you've got Mark Halerpin as your source (his is NOT opinion, though, his is FACT. Got it).

I've got Obama routinely trying to avoid debates, saying no to them, behaving during them as Bush did, as though he shouldn't have to be subjected to them, etc.

And:

http://www.observer.com/2008/debate-obam a-does-not-soar

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/17/c ampaign.wrap/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/29 /obamas-dilemma-to-debate_n_99330.html

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2 /2/0403/37081

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2008/04/how _barack_obama_lost_the_debate_and_whethe r_it_matters.html


by Juno on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:56:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opposing Points of View: Good or Bad? (2.00 / 1)

I tried to avoid it, but I can't help myself. I told you BOTH of our ideas were opinion, only you were stating it as fact, keep up. And avoiding debates, he took part in 20 so far, yeah, that's avoidance. And insulting, you're the person who claimed obama supporters, like bush supporters, only like personality and only you were capable of critical thought, so what are you talking about, is that not insulting...Jeesh, I'm so confused by your circuitous logic.


by Dog Chains on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:36:03 AM EST
[