Poisoning the Well

by oregonkcg, Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:39:52 PM EST

I'm pretty significantly depressed this evening.

I went to a going-away function some friends at work threw me and I chatted with a friend of mine who I haven't talked to in months. As it turns out, she was a huge Clinton supporter and launched into a tirade about how Obama was terribly sexist throughout his campaign and that she planned on not voting in the general election as a result.

I have read a bunch of pontificating about how Clinton supporters are wounded and hurt that their candidate didn't win. I have read a bunch of commentary arguing that the benefits of Clinton's gender (in terms of her strong female following in the primary) were far outweighed by the rampant negative sexism employed to tear her down. I have bought into the general notion that most of this anger and grief over Clinton's fall was centralized among so-called "low-information" voters.

Well, I got a dose of reality tonight. My work friend is a highly informed, highly intelligent corporate litigator. She is the first truly engaged friend of mine I've come across to hold the views I noted above.

My conversation with her makes me depressed because a lot of the anger and vitriol that my friend (and thousands of other Clinton supporters out there) hold in their hearts could have been mitigated somewhat by Clinton bowing out more gracefully without launching a months-long umbrage campaign about how all the horrible sexism in this country was the main thing holding her back.

Look, there was sexism in this campaign and there was racism. All true. But, let's be honest. Clinton didn't win the nomination for much more enormous reasons than her gender.

She ran an antiquated 1990s campaign in the 21st century.

She failed to seriously attempt to leverage online donors until it was too late.

She relied on the profoundly flawed advice of Mark Penn, who will likely go down as one of the worst campaign strategists in modern memory.

She failed to contest the caucus states.

She ran an "experience" campaign in a "change" election season.

And the list goes on and on.

It really galls me to think that a strong progressive women like my friend will be turned off enough to either not vote (like my friend) or vote for McCain due in large part to Clinton choosing to pour gasoline on the simmering flames of sexism among her supporters.

I won't sleep well tonight.


Poll
What was the main reason Clinton didn't win the nomination?
Sexism
Many other reasons.

Votes: 28
Results : Vote Link : Polls


Tags: Hillary Clinton, Sexism, Barack Obama (all tags)

Display:
Permalink :: 109 Comments :: Post a Comment


Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 4)

I understand the frustration, but reiterating your views on Clinton's loss doesn't really seem like it's going to solve anything.  


by rfahey22 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:44:45 PM EST

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 2)

Just a personal story.  It really affected me tonight.  


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 4)

She didn't launch a months-long umbrage campaign at all.  Where are you getting that from?  I'm sure your friend doesn't believe that.  She ran to win.  It's pretty simple.

I think there was plenty of sexism, as well as a strange deep-rooted anger at the Clintons, and it stings because it comes from the people I thought would be allies - progressive and liberal Democrats.  I expect Rush Limbaugh to say Hillary will do and say anything to get elected.  I didn't expect to hear it constantly and directly from fellow Democrats.  I didn't expect to be hounded off the usual blogs where I'd spent quite a lot of time, simply for supporting my candidate - I didn't expect basic common courtesy and civil discourse to go completely out the window in favor of personal character attacks and insults.  I didn't expect myself, my candidate, and my fellow Hillary supporters to be accused of racism.  We did nothing to deserve that.

I thought we Democrats were better than the Republicans, and didn't believe in adopting their bullying tactics, their right-wing talking points (especially about the Clintons) and their disregard for facts and reality when it doesn't fit their argument.  I've found out that many of us are not any better.

It was maddening and, I thought, certainly sexist to hear the drumbeats for Hillary to quit the race starting with the day after Iowa, because that's when it started.  Historically for so many other candidates (men) this was not the case.  They went all the way to the convention despite being nowhere near as close as Hillary in delegates.  It was a historic run that was meaningful for so many women, but we were told over and over that she needed to quit and give up.  Why?  It is maddening.  It's still maddening because IMHO Barack Obama is in no way qualified to hold the office.  Once again I see the qualified woman who's worked so hard for it, pushed aside in favor of the unqualified man, the exciting new guy.  It is maddening.  That's just the way it is.  


by daria g on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:37:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 0)

I didn't expect myself, my candidate, and my fellow Hillary supporters to be accused of racism.  We did nothing to deserve that.

Clearly you missed some of the diaries around here, if you think there wasn't any racism.  But that aside, regardless of whether anyone is racist, the Clinton campaign put its collective foot into its mouth on race a number of times.  Even if every one of those instances was unintentional or can be explained away, there were plenty enough to make a pattern that a lot of people saw.  Here's a rule of thumb: if people are offended, it's likely that something offensive was done, whether it was intended as such or not!  

...disregard for facts and reality when it doesn't fit their argument.

I assume you're targeting both sides with this one?

It was maddening and, I thought, certainly sexist to hear the drumbeats for Hillary to quit the race starting with the day after Iowa, because that's when it started.

Most candidates were labeled as "second tier" or worse well before any voting occurred.  Was that sexist?  Didn't the media summarily kill their chances with such a label?  

Was it sexist of Hillary to claim, months before Iowa, that she had a "special burden" in competing there, due in part to their hostility toward women as evidenced by their lack of a female governor?  Is it ok to blame her campaign's failures on the imagined sexism of an entire state?

I don't ask this to vilify Hillary, but to point out that the media was not alone in injecting sex(ism) into this campaign.  The sex card was played early and often and, much as you argue that charges of racism flew about too freely, charges of sexism (from supporters, in the blogs, etc.) were similarly thrown about at every comment that was well within the norm for a political race.

Historically for so many other candidates (men) this was not the case.

Despite the FACT that the press asked similar questions of other such candidates (as evidenced in a number of diaries around here, such as this one about Kennedy's 1980 run: http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/25/2033 38/082), this is much more a result of the era of 24 hour cable news, where a desire to create news has clearly overcome reporting, than it is of sexism.

It's still maddening because IMHO Barack Obama is in no way qualified to hold the office.  Once again I see the qualified woman who's worked so hard for it, pushed aside in favor of the unqualified man, the exciting new guy.

That's not sexism.  

It's her war vote, and many many other legitimate reasons people have to vote for someone else.

Presumably it wouldn't have been problematic if people had voted Hillary into the nomination over more qualified male counterparts like Biden, Dodd, and Richardson.  Correct?


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 02:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

freedom. (2.00 / 2)

clearly this is a troll diary and has achieved its intention of upsetting people.  why instead of calling this out are you feeding into it?  you're one of the good eggs right?


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 02:40:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: freedom. (2.00 / 1)

Perhaps.  I haven't been around much lately, so my troll-dar is off.

I could have resisted, but then I got to the "Obama isn't qualified" stuff, at which time I felt the need to play some devil's advocate.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 02:58:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 2)

Sorry, I recced this comment without thoroughly reading the last paragraph.
As a Hillary supporter, I recognize that Obama is just as qualified to run for president as any of the people he ran against.He has different qualities than Hillary, but at this point, those qualities could give us a serious majority in Congress, plus a Democratic president.
I've been dealing with sexism all of my working life, as have millions of other women. But I'm not going to shoot myself in the head regarding this election by moaning about attacks against Hillary and her supporters. I'm going to pledge to work harder to get more and better Democrats elected to government that will make tolerating those attacks less profitable.
She was just on NPR saying that people who supported her and her issues and her party should support Obama, and that's what I'm doing.
by skohayes on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:17:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 2)

Also.. you're depressed?  I've been driven off sites where I thought I fit into the community (I have a 4-digit ID over at Daily Kos) because they turned so vicious; I've had longtime friends e-mail me cheap shots against my candidate for no other reason than to piss me off; I've heard the part of the country where I'm from and the people I grew up with smeared in the media and on the blogs as racists and "low information voters," and I'm finding out that sexism is deeply rooted in our culture, acceptable to many people, invisible to many others, and the majority just don't want to hear about it and are declaring this isn't the time to talk about it.  And so many of the progressive and liberal media outlets I used to watch and listen to, bashed my candidate irrationally for months on end - some attacks were political and legitimate, many were personal and just plain mean-spirited.  And I see John McCain (who is also not fit to be president) and his supporters treat my candidate with more respect than Democrats.  Oh, and my candidate is highly likely not to get the nomination and most of my friends and colleagues are just gleeful about it, and I'm sad as hell.  How do you think I feel.


by daria g on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:56:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmm (1.60 / 5)


Allow me to be candid ( because took it me too to  'get it' :

While pontificating on your friends feelings , you came to write about how " silly"  it was or the bane of contention of her attitude was?

Women hear plenty code words that men like us dismiss.

To summarize--my friend "code words" are not just elephant in the room , in the case of 'race'.


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:47:06 PM EST

Re: Hmm (2.00 / 1)

Where did I say silly?  I just haven't been faced with it until now.  I admitted above that there was certainly sexism in this race as was there racism.  

But, she lost the race for MUCH bigger reasons.  That's just the way it is.


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:48:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (1.33 / 3)

Silly-- was just a euphemism of sort used by me to describe your diaries ultimate point.

Listen, why kid yourself here? Your poll was demonstrative of how dismissive you thought of the other camps supporter.  
It's like seeing a poll here asking. Did Obama win because he is black or because he ran a great campaign. It's insulting in both cases.


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (none / 0)

I don't get it.  The poster's poll asks what the main reason was she lost, not the only reason.


"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."
by campaignmonitor on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:56:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (1.33 / 3)

Have you heard of push polling and seen it? If you have you will get it...

to put an option suggesting that she lost because sexism is a classic tactic. albeit , it may have been subconcious in the diarist mind.

She did not claim to lose because of -- ONLY  sexism. It was sexism that played heavily in shaping the attitude towards her policies and dismissing it.

Example: Senator Clinton is soppy and bitchy" , she can't understand why the gas tax is not a feasible plan to run on

Or

"She is only; let's face it, a senator because her husband cheated".  

Insinuating what? That she is not deserving of being a senator and thus dismissive of her run and ultimately of her stances/policies?

Take an issue to debate inregards to her policy, but preface it w/ sexist remarks. You now have tied her policy to being this undeserving woman. Double whammy!  ALA Push polling..


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:16:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (none / 0)

Where all you getting all this extra BS.  The poster said that his/her friend said that she felt that Clinton lost primarily because of sexism.  The poll asks whether people believe this is the case?  What are you on?


"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."
by campaignmonitor on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:18:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (1.50 / 2)

POLL from a clinton supporter ( example):

Do you think Obama won

A.Because he plays the race card well
b.Because he had run a great campaign/other reasons


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That would be an appropriate poll (none / 0)

if you had had the corresponding conversation with a friend who brought up the race issue. Much as the diarist had a conversation, about sexism.


by Neef on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:32:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That would be an appropriate poll (1.50 / 2)

Please read this comment by me again (below) Neef:

His friend is not claiming sexism as the do all / sole reason.

Have you heard of push polling and seen it? If you have you will get it...

to put an option suggesting that she lost because sexism is a classic tactic. albeit , it may have been subconcious in the diarist mind.

She did not claim to lose because of -- ONLY  sexism. It was sexism that played heavily in shaping the attitude towards her policies and dismissing it.

Example: Senator Clinton is soppy and bitchy" , she can't understand why the gas tax is not a feasible plan to run on

Or

"She is only; let's face it, a senator because her husband cheated".  

Insinuating what? That she is not deserving of being a senator and thus dismissive of her run and ultimately of her stances/policies?

Take an issue to debate inregards to her policy, but preface it w/ sexist remarks. You now have tied her policy to being this undeserving woman. Double whammy!  ALA Push polling..



Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I got what you were saying (none / 0)

and I'd even agree you put a fine point on what a better, more revealing poll might be.

However, in this case, the diarist has posed what is essentially a binary question: "Was Sexism the primary cause of Sen Clinton's loss?" It's not an invalid question by any means, unless you interpret it as "Was Sexism the only cause of Sen Clinton's loss?"

Given that the diarist sets the interpretation, I think the former reading is more in line with his/her intent.


by Neef on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I got what you were saying (1.50 / 2)

It is classic subliminal messaging even done towards Obama by the repubs.

They are painting him to be associated with Wright. Hence trying to send the message--- don't believe in his policies because he belonged to a church whose pastor was a racist.

ALA Frame the man as a believer in racism and in turn define it to -- define his policies


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:13:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (none / 0)

That's not the form of the poll.  The poll asked, in the context of the post, what the primary reason for Clinton's loss was.  I guess we'll agree to disagree.  You don't get it.


"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."
by campaignmonitor on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:33:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (none / 0)

He's on an ego trip with with an extended stay in troll land and a stop over in divisionville.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:09:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (1.25 / 4)

And this from you venician?  The guy who says ---`IF you're against Obama- You are racist (** "alive" - that's me he addresses below):

Venician quote: "I'm begining to think what "alive"  is really concerned about is a black man having all the power that has usually been reserved for white men. White men from the south appear to be running scared these day of just what will a black man do with all that power, and will he use it to exact revenge against the slave states."


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:48:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (none / 0)

Repeating my quote only makes it look like I was right. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. You might want to seek professional advice to help deal with your fears.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:16:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (2.00 / 3)

it's a push poll trying to simplify and dismiss the subject the diarist wants to minimize.


by zerosumgame on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (1.50 / 2)

Oh zero, I mojo'ed ya like 24 times ( diff comments). dont knwo if u read my new offering in this dairy...http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/6/24/2063 4/1339#readmore


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:33:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The fault was ALL hers? (1.83 / 6)

You see no, "on the other hand"?
It's all "Clinton choosing to pour gasoline on the simmering flames of sexism among her supporters"?
Sincerely, that in a nutshell is the problem.  I think there's blame enough to go around.  And, continuing to flame Hillary is NOT going to turn around your friend and those of whom she is representive.
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:48:00 PM EST

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (2.00 / 2)

I'd like to discuss my friend's reaction but I don't engage with you, kosnomore.  You are an unreasonable poster.


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:50:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So you're responding to me (2.00 / 2)

in order to let me know you won't respond to me?  
All-righty, then!
(Does this mean you and Suzy won't let me pledge the Tri-Delts!  OMG!)
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So you're responding to me (none / 0)

Makes sense to me.  You're not productive.


"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."
by campaignmonitor on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So you're responding to me (2.00 / 3)

I have gotten to the point of ignoring these people.

There are websites for them, ignore them and they will leave.
The GE has started, we are on the precipice of not just huge victory for our party but huge participation in voting.

While clowns like this are trying to destroy the election for EVERYONE, we need to focus on building it up and making sure Oregonkc's friend shows up to vote, regardless of who she votes for.

Trying to convince deadenders on the Internet of all places is truly a waste of time.  It might be fun but there is too much at stake this year.

Here is a message from our next president, it is to his staff, but I feel he is talking to all of us, those who have enough time to waste hitting keys on a keyboard:


by DemsLandslide2008 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (none / 0)

PS.  Here's my poll.  I said MAIN reason she didn't win.

What was the main reason Clinton didn't win the nomination?
·     Sexism     0%
·     Many other reasons.


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:50:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (none / 0)

When you write that it sounds like you are saying that sexism does not matter.

That is what I hear from the talk that she is (and we Hillary supporters are) blaming her loss entirely on sexism.  It sounds like a way to dismiss sexism and say it doesn't matter and now is not the time to discuss it.  

Who can quantify the factors that caused the primary to come out as it did?  No one.  It's all a matter of opinion.  But there was sexism, and it matters, and it's wrong, and some of us care about it, and care about making the point (especially to fellow Democrats) that it is wrong because apparently we have to, since they don't want to see that it is.  Why do you need to prove that other things were more important?  That just seems like a straw man.


by daria g on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:44:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (2.00 / 1)

The poster isn't flaming Clinton.  I wish you would try to be a better poster, kosnomore.  You really don't add much.  The poster pointed out the main reasons Clinton lost, not the ONLY.


"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."
by campaignmonitor on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"The poster isn't flaming Clinton" (1.00 / 1)

That ain't how Clinton supporters will see.  Even if they are "silly" and "women".


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "The poster isn't flaming Clinton" (2.00 / 1)

As the poster noted above, he/she never said the concerns are "silly".  This is why you're a poor commenter.  You make up stuff that wasn't said.


"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."
by campaignmonitor on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:57:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So you really think minimizing the (2.00 / 1)

impact of sexism, cataloging Hillary's shortcomings and failures, and airing Freudian "what do women want" type musings is the way to convert the not yet converted?  Short answer:  No, it isn't.  All this diary does is stir up mud that's settling.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:05:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So you really think minimizing the (2.00 / 1)

The poster didn't minimize the impact of sexism.He/she said there was indeed sexism but it wasn't the primary reason she lost.  I really don't get what you're making up with this : "Freudian 'what do women want' type musings".  What is that supposed to mean?  What subversive sexism are you accusing the poster of?


"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."
by campaignmonitor on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:09:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "The poster isn't flaming Clinton" (2.00 / 1)

I didn't say silly.  I understand her concerns because there was sexism in the campaign.  I just disagree with her.  I don't dismiss people that disagree with me, unlike some people I reply to online.


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "The poster isn't flaming Clinton" (none / 0)

Stick with you original plan.  Kosnomore adds nothing to the discussion here.


"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."
by campaignmonitor on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:10:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "The poster isn't flaming Clinton" (none / 0)

Please point out where the diarist said implied that his or her friend was silly?
There are certainly good points to debate about in this diary, you don't need to create a straw man and completely miss the point of the diary.
by skohayes on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:27:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (2.00 / 2)

"the anger and vitriol that my friend (and thousands of other Clinton supporters out there) hold in their hearts could have been mitigated somewhat by Clinton bowing out more gracefully without launching a months-long umbrage campaign"

Looks like flaming to me.


by souvarine on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (none / 0)

Seems accurate to me.  Where's the flame?  It makes sense to me that Clinton could have done more to help keep her supporters channelled in a more positive way than running around crying sexism at every turn.  I agree there was indeed sexism out there, no argument there.


"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."
by campaignmonitor on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (2.00 / 1)

Accusing Clinton of "poisoning the well" and dismissing objections to sexism as "umbrage" is flaming, no matter how justified you believe it to be. By the same token my contention that Obama exploited race to win the primary through divisiveness is flaming, though nonetheless accurate.


by souvarine on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (none / 0)

"Umbrage" is not a dismissal.  It's defined as "A feeling of anger caused by being offended".  Clinton supporters were indeed rightly offended by the sexism in the campaign.  However, the poster has a point that Clinton could have done more to brush it off in the better interests of the party.


"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."
by campaignmonitor on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:11:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (2.00 / 1)

Since Clinton rarely even obliquely brought up sexism, and almost always to brush it off, I think you have things backwards. A large part of the problem many Clinton supporters have with the course of the primary was the way the rampant sexism in the on and off-line media, even from purportedly "progressive" outlets, was diminished and ignored. Urging people to "get over it", as Obama recently said to women supporters, or "brush it off" as you suggest, only reinforces the sense that sexism is not being taken seriously by the new leader of the Democratic party.

Clinton may have been better served if she had taken Obama's tack and used gender as a weapon, if she had highlighted any mis-step to destroy anyone remotely associated with Obama. But she was never willing to be as divisive and destructive to party interests as Obama was. At this point it is not in her power to address her supporter's anger, Obama is the only person with that power. It is up to him to show that he takes sexism seriously.


by souvarine on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:32:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Neither of your examples (2.00 / 1)

are flames, actually. They are both controversial opinions, not direct insults.


by Neef on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Neither of your examples (none / 0)

You're just poisoning the well.


by souvarine on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Touche (2.00 / 1)

But I'd point out that a direct you-to-me conversation is very different from a you-about-someone-else.


by Neef on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:57:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (none / 0)

running around crying sexism at every turn

She didn't do this!  WTF.  Please cite every turn, if you want to convince me otherwise.


by daria g on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:45:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (2.00 / 1)

I don't know about crying sexism, but as for playing the sex card:

---Iowa poses a "special burden" for Hillary because they haven't had a female governor.

---"Ultimately it was six guys against her," regarding one of the debates

---Regarding getting out of the race, "boys used to say that to me all the time."

---"...the all boys' club of presidential politics."

Of course, there was also Elton's rant about misogyny at one of her events.  And actual discussions about sexism (warranted, I might add) became more common campaign themes in May and on.  Some of these things were perfectly valid.  Some were clearly attempts to play the victim.

And you know what's funny?  She doesn't even have the courtesy to call them MEN.  "Boys."  "Guys."  Not "men."  Not "Senators."  "Boys."  

If someone had said "this girl shouldn't be in this race" people would have (rightfully) had a fit!  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 02:54:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (none / 0)

HRC was asked about sexism and she responded accurately, in my opinion.  Many, many others saw the sexism and pointed it out vociferously on blogs, in letters to the editor, and at rallies.  Should you not believe the rampant sexism, look at the montages that the Women's Media Center and the Feminist Majority put together, and the worst offenders.  These were not fringe personalities-they were on every network and all over the internet.  They're appalling.  The point is, Senator Clinton was savaged by the media and was hounded constantly to get out of the race, even though she kept winning.  That's undeniable.  Yes, we now have a nominee, but she could just as easily have been it, and that's the crux of the issue.  Some Obama supporters seem intent on denying it.


by TinaH1963 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 05:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The fault was ALL hers? (none / 0)

That's not a flame.  My opinion is that she could have done more to help lessen the anger among her supporters to help the party.


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:05:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So say THAT (1.00 / 0)

without the dismissive put downs.  More effective, IMHO.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:37:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So what was her reaction? (2.00 / 1)

I am dying to know.

You know all the facts, I assume you presented them to her.
Im not sure if she was listening or even wanted to listen, but I would like to know.

At the very end, I don't blame anything for Hillary's loss.
Barack Obama was a better candidate that was favored by "active" Democrats; hence the enormous fundraising and record breaking rallies.

Who could have imagined that in a PRIMARY a single candidate would draw an average of 10,000 citizens to hear them speak.

I guess my point is, your not going to change your friend's mind.
If she is a Democrat that believes in our values then there are thousands of positive points of Obama and our party you can educate her on.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:00:17 PM EST

Re: So what was her reaction? (none / 0)

It was a decent conversation although she really thought that the main and overriding reason why Clinton lost is because of all the sexism she received and all the african americans that voted for Obama.  Even though kosnomore suggests I think her position is silly, I don't.  I just disagree with her.


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:04:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ah - just what the doctor ordered. (2.00 / 1)


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:13:04 PM EST

All's well (2.00 / 2)

The long and hotly contested primary had some negative results. But those are more then offset by the positives.

Obama is a much better candidate thanks to Clinton. Better his trial by fire came in the spring then in the fall. Obama has a 50 state organization and there are more registered Dems in every state because of the prolonged race. The Republicans can rerun the Clinton campaign strategy but it's a strategy that already lost with a better candidate then McCain can ever hope to be.

Recent polls show that the defectors to McCain have shrunk to 11% from something like 50% only a few weeks after the primary ended. That number is likely to shrink more. Well worth the experience and party building that occurred thanks to the toughness of the race.

You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.


by hankg on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:16:44 PM EST

Re: Poisoning the Well (1.71 / 7)

"grief over Clinton's fall was centralized among so-called "low-information" voters."

"My conversation with her makes me depressed because a lot of the anger and vitriol that my friend (and thousands of other Clinton supporters out there) hold in their hearts could have been mitigated somewhat by Clinton bowing out more gracefull"

"It really galls me to think that a strong progressive women like my friend will be turned off enough to either not vote (like my friend) or vote for McCain due in large part to Clinton choosing to pour gasoline on the simmering flames of sexism among her supporters."

Every time I try and see things with a world view that the Obama team is not basically evil I read something like this.


by dtaylor2 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:49:16 PM EST

Obama team basically evil (2.00 / 2)

get a fucking grip.


by JJE on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 1)

Obama is evil... unless of course he chooses Hillary as a running mate, in which case you think he should be President.  Riiiiiight.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:03:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (1.00 / 1)

I think Hillary should be VP enough to over look the evilness in the Team Obama movement for 1 cycle.

Obama is black.  Thats a big positive for me.

And its still slightly unclear wether he is the leader of the mob or merely being dragged along and generally happy with the direction he is being dragged even if he is not happy about the manner.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:07:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

Please demonstrate, using verifiable sources, the clear link between this diarist and the "Obama team."


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by mistersite on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:33:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (1.18 / 11)

If Clinton had been hammered out of the race, her supporters would have been even more aware of the fact that neither Kennedy nor Hart were forced out of the race early even though they had far less support. More people voted for Clinton in the primary than anyone in primary history - clearly she didn't run a bad campaign or your candidate wouldn't have to base his appeal on misogyny as he did. I won't vote for racists or misogynists and that leaves Obama and McCain out. I'm not sure how I'll vote, but I'll probably write in Clinton's name.

As for Roe v Wade, I've decided I'd rather have a baby I didn't expect to have than vote for Obama, so don't even try to threaten me with that.

Whether Hillary won or lost, I am furious that a woman with her credentials had to face down the level of misogyny that she did. Nothing Obama can say or do can change the fact that he didn't distance himself from Randi Rhodes, or any of the other obscene attacks on Clinton's integrity. Now, his wife will be attacked - she's ugly and coarse, so she'll make an easy target. Feminists will come to her rescue because it's a matter of principle but everytime we defend her, we'll remind people that Obama never distanced himself from the hate unleashed against Clinton in his name. And hopefully, that'll help make sure he loses in November and in four years, the Dems will hopefully behave better than they did this time out.

I despise your candidate and I am lifelong Democrat who gives money and works on campaign. I've voted for one person in my entire life who wasn't a Democrat. but I will not vote for a low life like obama. And you can blame it on Clinton all you want, but she doesn't own me and unlike Obama supporters and their candidate, I don't take my orders from her. She's a professional and she'll be out campaigning for Obama and I'll be out campaigning for him to lose.

This country has survived a lot - a revolution, James Buchanan, a civil war, assassinations, WWI and II, Watergate, the McCarthy hearings and we'll survive four years of McCain. And in four years, we can fight again. I'd rather run against a 76 year old McCain than Obama - it's that simple. and i despise him that much.


by glitterannebegay on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:57:01 PM EST

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 1)


his wife will be attacked - she's ugly and coarse, so she'll make an easy target.

Ugly and course?

Your demented blind rage over imagined slights by Obama has clearly affected your ability to grasp reality. It's going to suck being you come November. Here's hoping your head doesn't explode when the candidate you despise gets elected. Maybe you should get some help.


by hankg on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:14:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (1.42 / 7)

She sat in the "God Damn America" Church.

She made the "Scratch his eyes out" comment

She wasn't proud of her country

And she thinks you need to let her husband "heal" your soul....


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:27:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 1)

She sat in the "God Damn America" Church.

She made the "Scratch his eyes out" comment

She wasn't proud of her country

And she thinks you need to let her husband "heal" your soul....

Is Ann Coulter posting on myDD now?


by hankg on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:55:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (1.33 / 3)

When actual quotes are too much to handle its time to re-evaluate your beliefs.

I quoted Michelle or stated undisputed facts.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:59:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

And so does Ms. Coulter.

What the two of you have in common is a tendency to skew your facts toward hatred.


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by mistersite on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:32:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (1.33 / 3)

Obama preaches that Reagan was a great president and Clinton wasn't...

Obama goes to a hate church.

Obama calls Bill Clinton a Racist via surrogates.

Obama calls Hillary Clinton a Racist via surrogates.

Obama takes stands AGAINST democracy

So I don't like Obama and Michelle for things that they actually did or actually said.

And thats a problem with me?

How long have you been a democrat?


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:04:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

Obama preaches that Reagan was a great president and Clinton wasn't...
He did?  Let's see a quote saying exactly that.  I don't mean something out of context that you twist to mean that; I mean that, unequivocally and openly.  Support or retract.

Obama goes to a hate church.

Go to the South Side of Chicago and ask a few people there if Trinity UCC is a hate church.  Make sure you ask the people they've fed, clothed, ministered to in prison, helped get better city services for, etc.  Ask them if they feel hated.

Obama calls Bill Clinton a Racist via surrogates.

Obama calls Hillary Clinton a Racist via surrogates.

Let's see it, then.  I don't mean something you twist into saying they're racist; I mean you have to present an instance of an Obama surrogate clearly and openly calling Hillary and Bill Clinton "racist."  That exact word.  Let's see it.

Obama takes stands AGAINST democracy

And when exactly did he do that?  If you're referring to the Florida vote and the Soviet ballot in Michigan, the DNC Rules Committee, including many Clinton supporters, made the decision to strip their delegates.

So I don't like Obama and Michelle for things that they actually did or actually said.

And thats a problem with me?

Yes, that is a problem with you, because you have been so consumed by prejudicial hatred toward Barack and Michelle Obama that you are inclined to fabricate a revisionist history in which they said things they did not in fact say, and inclined to twist the things they do say to such a degree that they're not recognizable anymore.  You are coming at the Obamas from a position of fundamentally bad faith... and yes, that is a problem with you.  I recommend you revise your attitude.


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by mistersite on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:10:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (1.16 / 6)

Even I wouldn't compare Michelle Obama to Ann Coulter though I understand how it happens. Michelle's a rotten egg - that's for sure. And when the GOP comes after her with both barrels, it will be fun to defend her and point out that she didn't have the minimal level of integrity to distance herself from similarly misogynist attacks on Clinton.

That's what's going to suck about being Michelle - she engaged in creepy, misogynist rhetoric herself against a woman who has done more for the African American community (the health care facilities she got built in Arkansas, the legal aid clinic she oppened, her chairmanship of the Corporation of Legal Services, her work on The Family and Medical Leave Act, and her work on SCHIP just to name a few things) than Michelle and Barry put together. And Michelle is going to rely on us to pull her fat from the fire and we'll do it, because there will be worthwhile women who will run, and who will become first lady and we can't have that precedent being set. But everytime we defend her, we get to remind people of just how ugly Obama and Michelle''s campaign (so ugly that even his supporters mistake her rhetoric for Ann Coulter's) against Clinton was. We're gonna rub their faces in their shit every chance we get.

Whether he wins or loses, we're going to make sure he stinks to high heaven.


by glitterannebegay on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:06:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 2)

I was comparing the poster to Ann Coulter not Michelle Obama.

You have fun in your bubble with Larry Sinclair and the rest of the gang. The vast majority of Americans see Michelle as a great asset to the Obama campaign and a credit to her family.

You are a sad and sick deluded bunch who will have zero impact outside your little circle of hate.


by hankg on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:13:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

"The vast majority of Americans see Michelle as a great asset to the Obama campaign and a credit to her family."

I think its easier to make statements like this than it is to prove them...


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

Dtaylor, I think you should take a deep breath.
The Church is a good church. Faux Noise and the Repugs have slimed that church unmercifully. You are wrong to assume the church is a hateful church. It is NOT.
I wanted to scratch Bill's eyes out too. I voted for Bill twice and this time around he disappointed me greatlywith his two-faced remarks.
Michelle is proud of her country, as in Rev. Wright,her words have been taken grossly out of context and spun by Faux Noise and the MSM.
How about McSame's quote about not loving the US until he became a POW?  ANd how long did that stay on the MSM?  It was buried.  GMAB
by Mae Scott on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 11:52:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 3)

clearly she didn't run a bad campaign or your candidate wouldn't have to base his appeal on misogyny as he did.
Support or retract.
As for Roe v Wade, I've decided I'd rather have a baby I didn't expect to have than vote for Obama, so don't even try to threaten me with that.
No.  You don't get off that easy.  The moral consequence of your action is that other women will be forced to have babies they don't expect because you didn't care enough about their rights to take action.
Nothing Obama can say or do can change the fact that he didn't distance himself from Randi Rhodes
It's really hard to distance yourself from someone you weren't close to.  Please demonstrate the multiple links between the Obama campaign and Ms. Rhodes.
Now, his wife will be attacked - she's ugly and coarse, so she'll make an easy target.
You just get done complaining about misogyny and then have the unmitigated gall to attack the appearance of Michelle Obama, an accomplished woman in her own right?  Hypocrite.
Obama never distanced himself from the hate unleashed against Clinton in his name
Again, hard to distance yourself from something you're not close to.  Please demonstrate multiple, clear, obvious links between Obama and the "hate unleashed against Clinton."
And hopefully, that'll help make sure he loses in November and in four years, the Dems will hopefully behave better than they did this time out.
Yeah, that'll make the world a better place.  At a crucial time in our nation's history, four more years of Bushism is exactly what the doctor ordered.  Your desire to teach the Democratic Party a lesson is so much more important than the future of this country.
She's a professional and she'll be out campaigning for Obama and I'll be out campaigning for him to lose.
That's nice.  You have fun with that.  Nice to see that your hatred for one person has caused you to take an active stand against women's rights, against peace, and against working Americans.


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by mistersite on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 03:26:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (1.33 / 3)

"clearly she didn't run a bad campaign or your candidate wouldn't have to base his appeal on misogyny as he did."

Obama was in perpetual fear of Hillary as shown by his campaign tactics

1)  Accuse her of being insensitive to Black people

2)  Try and push her out of the race

3)  Argue that she had no claim to victory despite having more than 50% of the democratic party member vote from very early on until the very end.

4)  Have a whole network campaign against  the Clintons on a nightly basis.  MSNBC are your ears burning?

Team Obama was cowardly in their approach to Hillary and it showed.  

In the end they relied on the least democratic forms of selection and the threat that next cycle the under 18s would be able to vote and punish anyone who abided by democracy this time.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 09:11:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

1)  Accuse her of being insensitive to Black people

Provide a link to his making that accusation.  Make sure it's clear and indisputable that he does say that.  Support or retract.

2)  Try and push her out of the race

Provide evidence that Obama tried to push her out of the race.  Make sure that evidence addresses the fact that Obama said until the very end that he had no problem with her staying in the race as long as she wanted to.

3)  Argue that she had no claim to victory despite having more than 50% of the democratic party member vote from very early on until the very end.

First, show me a verifiable link demonstrating that Hillary Clinton had more than 50% of the "democratic party member vote" - whatever that means, since many states don't have party registration - until the very end.

Second, no, she didn't have any claim to victory.  The Democratic nomination is not decided by some mystical count of the "democratic party member vote," but by the number of delegates who support a given candidate.  When it became clear that Obama had more pledged delegates after all the states had chosen theirs, the superdelegates came over to support him as well.  Absent the sufficient number of delegates, there quite frankly was no plausible claim for Hillary Clinton to the Democratic nomination.

4)  Have a whole network campaign against  the Clintons on a nightly basis.  MSNBC are your ears burning?

Please demonstrate with verifiable, reliable links that MSNBC's "campaign against the Clintons" was in any way guided or directed by the Obama campaign.  Support or retract.


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by mistersite on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 10:15:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

She's "ugly"? My goodness, we can't have an ugly woman standing beside the president, can we? Much better to have the plasticized and botoxed Cindy McCain, former drug user and wealthy chairman of her family's beer company.
Yeah, you're a real champion for women, alright.

by skohayes on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

Way out of bounds on the "ugly and coarse" comment.


by stegro on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:04:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope you have a channel for all that vitriol (2.00 / 2)

when he wins. Because that is quite likely.

As far as "ugly and coarse", welcome to being the misogynist you so despise. Regardless of where you started out, you are now firmly part of the problem.


by Neef on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:27:17 AM EST

Re: I hope you have a channel for all that vitriol (1.40 / 5)

Calling an accomplished senator with a lifelong resume of progressive accomplishments a "fucking whore" is misogynist rhetoric. Pointing that someone who claimed she wanted to scratch out the eyes of the only Democratic president to win re-election is coarse and ugly has nothing to do with misogyny. By any standard, it's coarse, ugly behavior. Or are you defending it? Are you saying that the person who wants to be first lady talking about scratching Bill Clinton's eyes out isn't behaving in a coarse fashion? Is that your idea of refined, adult behavior? It's not mine, that's for sure.


by glitterannebegay on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:11:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope you have a channel for all that vitriol (none / 0)

In Wisconsin, I asked her if she was offended by Bill Clinton's use of the phrase 'fairytale' to describe her husband's characterisation of his position on the Iraq war. At first, Obama responded with a curt 'No'. But, after a few seconds, she affected a funny voice. 'I want to rip his eyes out!' she said, clawing at the air with her fingernails. One of her advisers gave her a nervous look. 'Kidding!' Obama said. 'See, this is what gets me into trouble.'

I see nothing to defend. And your canard of referring to her behavior as "ugly and coarse", is frankly wasted.


by Neef on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 01:22:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Whoa...... (2.00 / 5)

"My conversation with her makes me depressed because a lot of the anger and vitriol that my friend (and thousands of other Clinton supporters out there) hold in their hearts could have been mitigated somewhat by Clinton bowing out more gracefully without launching a months-long umbrage campaign about how all the horrible sexism in this country was the main thing holding her back."

So, it's all Clinton's fault for not getting out when people told her to get out?  Yeesh.  Boy howdy, did you ever miss the message our co-worker was sending.  

You should be sleepless tonight, but what you should be sleepless over is your own patriarchal attitude.  It galls me to think that a self-proclaimed "progressive" dismisses the fact that, well after you think Clinton should have cleared the field, she kept winning. And winning.


by aggieric on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:42:36 AM EST

Re: Whoa...... (none / 0)

See, that's what makes Clinton supporters so angry.  Obama ended up winning the pledged delegate count by the slimmest of margins.  Yet the demands started coming as early as Iowa and certainly before Super Tuesday that Clinton had to drop out.

It was possible up until Kentucky/Oregon that Clinton could gain the lead so why in the heck should she drop out?

If unity is uncertain, then a fair and equal case could be made that Obama should have dropped out, gracefully.

The Blog-o-sphere has no right to demand that any candidate drop out of a viable campaign.

Even now there are plenty of upset Democrats and you nave no guarantee they will show up for your nominee in November.

More missteps like the Fisa bill and there may be more people than you could imagine staying home or leaving a blank ballot in the box.


by wblynch on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:11:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa...... (none / 0)

I only wish MYDD had an edit function....

"nave" should read "have" and "your nominee" should read "the nominee"

Thanks for the consideration.


by wblynch on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:16:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa...... (none / 0)

I absolutely agree about this point in the diary, the only sour note to me.


by skohayes on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:41:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"your" coworker. n/t (none / 0)


by aggieric on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:43:09 AM EST

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 3)

I understand your concern.  Obviously Clinton should have committed seppuku in January so as not to disturb the Wondrousness of Obama.  Or even applied for a retroactive abortion.

Take your condescension and go get stuffed.

I will mourn Clinton's loss until my dying day.  I have no belief in "transformation" or "post partisanship" and I think the "New Politics" is a pile of crap with a good marketing campaign that sucked in the credulous and the gullible.

Obama is getting my vote only because the thought of McCain as president is intolerable.   But I think I'm going to print up some "Don't Blame Me, I Voted for Hillary" buttons to wear after January 20.


by InigoMontoya on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:50:00 AM EST

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

the denouncing condescension and then calling millions of democrats gullible seem at odds, but im not entirely a fan of the OP either.

remarks like "I will mourn Clinton's loss until my dying day" are the sort of thing that make me want to imagine another person's point of view.

this is just a sentiment i cannot wrap my mind around. its hard to understand that people are so different, even people who agree on so much like most everyone on this site. we can witness the same event and yet have seen completely different things.

i have to think it must be the same for those who can't understand why people voted for Obama, or feel the way about him that they do.

i feel for those who have to come to terms with injustices they felt so strongly, that hit so hard. i just always try to realize that other people see these differently and that few things are universal.

and thats my 1am babble-rant for the day.


by falseintellect on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:23:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

If the promises of "transformation" are counterfeit, what does that make those who believe in them?


by InigoMontoya on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:34:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

So if you don't think Hillary was transformative, why mourn forever? And if you don't believe in New Politics, why mourn for the defeat of an Old Politics politician?

As long as you assume the New Politics are really just the Old Politics, and that they're all just politicians, there'll be an endless parade of them to get worked up about later.

Am I taking your "mourn till my dying day" comment too literally? Or is the point that you think Obama really is transformative and that New Politics have defeated and replaced Old Politics, and thus Hillary Clinton symbolizes the last of the Old Guard? What is it you're mourning here?

Many of Hillary Clinton's supporters find her quite transformative, in fact, because she the woman who very nearly broke the glass ceiling - and the more cynical think that her defeat means a woman now can never be president, which they mourn. I disagree with the latter assessment, because I'm not cynical (of course, I've always been an Obama supporter). It's my believe that Obama has laid out a clear roadmap for the next Democratic nominee (in 2016 I hope) to become the first female president. You didn't make any gender-based arguments, though, so I have no idea what it is that you are mourning forever.


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by X Stryker on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 04:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

I don't make gender-based arguments because Hillary wasn't a gender-based candidate.  I mourn her loss because I believe she is far more competent to become president than Obama.  

And I can't figure out how you read what I wrote.  Obama is the one who makes the counterfeit promise of transformation, not Hillary.

I don't need to love my candidate or believe that my candidate's campaign is Something Special in History.  I just need to believe my candidate is simply the better choice.  And in this case the far better choice.


by InigoMontoya on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:42:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (none / 0)

So if she's simply the better choice, why "mourn" her loss until your "dying day"? You're the one arguing that she isn't Super Special, merely "far more competent". Why all the heavy emotional investment?

Or am I taking your "mourn" comment too literally? Do you actually mean that you'll simply bemoan this for few years until the next election?


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by X Stryker on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 12:51:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poisoning the Well (2.00 / 5)

I think I probably should have taken a stronger position at the outset.  Again, I understand the frustration, but there is no need t