Go Back To Red State

by JDF, Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:02:30 PM EST

Look, I am all for informed discussion on the issues and am fine with reasonable criticism of our nominee. I am also okay with former Hillary supporters who are getting on board, but are hesitant or lack enthusiasm for the nominee. I respect the fact that not everyone feels the way I feel about Barack Obama and I respect the fact that many are disappointed, for many different reasons, that Hillary did not win the nomination.

None of those people are who this diary is aimed at though.

This diary is a shout-out to the people who post the same comment over and over again.

This diary is a shout-out to the people who like to use the phrase "flip-flop" and other Republican buzz words to describe
our nominee.

Thats right, this diary is a shout-out to the trolls.

So, if you are here to sow division or really enjoy earning derision
Go back to Redstate.

If you are here to talk race baiting, or pounce on diaries like
a troll in waiting-
Go back to Redstate

If you are here to spread some lies like that guy from 1999
Go back to.... No Quarter or Hillaryis44

But if you are here to tout McCain, and don't think we can see you plan
Go back to Redstate

I hope I've made myself clear to all the trolls. I know they won't listen but it helps me feel better...and I hope all of the non-trolls- both those who are supporting Obama and those who are still a little uncomfortable- enjoy this little diary.

And if not don't get too mad. I am just trying to have a little fun on a Saturday morning.




Tags: Obama, McCain, President, 2008, trolls, blog, republican, Democrat, Independent (all tags)

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Re: Go Back To Red State (2.00 / 9)

Just having a little fun guys. I hope nobody (well nobody who doesn't deserve it) takes offense!


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:03:52 PM EST

Republicans for McCain (2.00 / 0)

posing as disgruntled Hillary supporters....... shocking

Republicans don't like McCain either.

... if this is your idea of fun you really need to get out more! :)  


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 02:14:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Republicans for McCain (2.00 / 2)

not just as "HRC supporters" lot's of McBloggers posing as BHO supporters here and dkos and other blogs. they LOVE to get the anger going no matter the direction it comes from. got a poster blasting Hillary folks or blaming alege for every evil in the world with lots of recs? that is either a McLamer or someone doing the work for him without even being smart enough to realize it.


by zerosumgame on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:25:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Republicans for McCain (none / 0)

BTW that in no way excuses the over the top or down-right stupid ones from the same kinds of folks claiming to support HRC, just that everyone is subject to that kind of stuff.


by zerosumgame on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 06:54:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

'having a little fun' (1.83 / 6)

So basically, this is a troll diary?


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 02:16:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'having a little fun' (2.00 / 3)

if by troll diary you mean a diary directed at trolls.... then yes, yes it is.


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 02:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'having a little fun' (2.00 / 0)

does ron seem a bit defensive? LOL!


by zerosumgame on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:18:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'having a little fun' (2.00 / 1)

No, I mean a troll post in the classic internet tradition, by someone who -- out of sheer boredom, limited imagination, or emotional disorder -- goes looking for conflict by unreeling a series of pre-fab attacks ("answer me these questions three") to positions he imagines others might defend, i.e., "trolling" for an argument.

The diarist, "having a little fun", is a troll and this is a prototypical troll post.


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 06:45:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'having a little fun' (2.00 / 0)

It seems like you are having trouble getting people to agree with you on that one. But then, I am biased.

Do you disagree with the premise of my diary?

Do you disagree that this sort of behavior is happening on the site?

Do you disagree that it belongs somewhere else?


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 07:24:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, I won't feed the troll (2.00 / 3)


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ron is a McCain supporter, so (none / 0)

yes he is exactly the target of your diary.


by Geekesque on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:17:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And now this troll diary is on the rec list, (none / 0)

recommended up as that other diary suggested, in order to disappear 'wrong-thinking' diaries from that list (diaries that say, for example, 'hey Obama, how 'bout defending the 4th Amendment?').


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And now this troll diary is on the rec list, (none / 0)

This Diary was on the Recc list before that Diary was posted...but you wouldn't notice that would you?


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:58:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Go back to Redstate, McCainiac. eom (none / 0)


by Geekesque on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:18:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (2.00 / 5)

I do think some of these people are trolls, but also think that some of them are still really pissed of Hillary supporters. Others are Obama supporters. Most of them seem to really angry at something. I have two good friends on either side of this weird fence. One who has learned to hate Obama and another who hates Hillary. Both of them are really good people, but they have bought all of the talking points and have entrenched themselves into their positions. And the hate and anger and fear that eminates off these people is palpable. I do not know if they can get over it without help.

I am not trying to be snarky either. I just think that I needed help grieving the loss of my candidate and I will say my Mom, an ardent Obama supporter, helped me get past the bullshit in that was planted in my head about this election. This is not to say that sexism and racism are not real and they are indeed very bad things. However, when you try to whack someone over the head with it, they do not normally respond well, and in fact may just dig a little deeper.


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 02:31:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can tell you about Obama suppoters'... (2.00 / 0)

...anger, some of it is reflected anger (they are angry because Clinton supporters are angry--that's not necessarily a slam on Clinton supporters, anger tends to generate anger).   Some of it is because frustration over the length of primary.  Some of it is free floating Clinton anger (which can take several different forms, it is not necessarily all stuff one would hear on Fox News).  Some of it is Bush anger.

I know cause I've had to deal with it because I've been angry.  However, the first batch of post primary polls have erased a lot of that (the polls are good because it gives some perspective on blog dialog vs the world).  The other good bit of perspective is that 8% of Rangers have donated to McCain.  So, it could be worse and total unity is not necessary.

That allows me to think that people can work out their existential dilemmas and that it doesn't affect me at all.


Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.
by AZphilosopher on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:47:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can tell you about Obama suppoters'... (none / 0)

Heh


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:52:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can tell you about Obama suppoters'... (2.00 / 0)

I wonder how angry Obama supporters would be if he had lost? Some of them are pretty hateful toward Hillary supporters even after he won. And there is a significant level of vitriol from Hillary supporters towards Obama supporters.

This arguing has become very absurd.

I guess I come here to elect some people to Congress and elect a President. There is nothing wrong with honest debate over substantive issues. I think it is appropriate to argue policy, campaign strategies, and other significant issues. These sorts of conversations only make us stronger and better. However, many of these debates may expose furious differences between us.

MAKE NO MISTAKE Republicans, THIS IS WHAT THINKING ADULTS DO. We do not all agree with each other, but we understand that we have common interest defeating you and electing Democrats to our highest offices in our country.

Oh and there are some people who are pretty good at figuring out trollish posts. Perhaps we can follow their lead.


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 06:32:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can tell you about Obama suppoters'... (none / 0)

Obama supporters would be angry of course. I don't believe these are bitter Clinton supporters.
These are bitter McCain supporters trying to divide us. The polls reflect a different reality.
by Politicalslave on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 07:01:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can tell you about Obama suppoters'... (none / 0)

In all honesty, I think there are a number of things going on. Definately repug mischief. A media looking for a story and any (negative) story with Hillary in is very good for the media. Finally, I think we waste time hating each other, and that may be the point of the whole thing.


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 08:53:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can tell you about Obama suppoters'... (2.00 / 1)

Oh and there are still some Hillary supporters that are still really, really pissed. And I think that does matter. I want them on my side.


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 08:55:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can tell you about Obama suppoters'... (none / 0)

As I said, as soon as people realize that you don't need to convert the absolutely maddest of the mad, I think frustrations will ease.  You can already see that with the strongest voices going off into the NOvemberosphere.  The sites have been a little better in the past 2 weeks.


Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.
by AZphilosopher on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:10:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can tell you about Obama suppoters'... (none / 0)

agreed


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can tell you about Obama supporters'... (none / 0)

My anger at the Clinton supporters? Had NOTHING to do with their being upset or the fact that it might take a while for them to get on board with the Democratic Party.

It was having to sit here, or at other sites, and listen to them lie.
The main theme was that the election was stolen from Hillary. It wasn't. She lost under the rules that this party uses to elect their nominee.

Another one was she won the popular vote. She didn't unless you removed votes from Obama's column. If you gave Hillary all votes from FL and MI she still did not win the popular vote but if you pointed that out? It created an uproar.

The worst to have to sit and listen to? That Obama had abused Hillary and been mean to him...this one ranked worst of all. Obama may have had supporters, such as myself, that were mean and nasty but he kept above board for the most part. He never brought up the many, many, many weapons he could have to damage Hillary. Anyone involved in politics know that the Clinton baggage was a huge political disadvantage and it was why the Republicans were pushing for her to win. She would have been easier to attack.

The media were biased. This has been proven wrong by independent studies of times on air, amount of positive and negative articles and news cast. It actually brought to light that the majority of bad news Hillary received was self inflicted from things she said or someone in her campaign said or did, an action taken by someone in her campaign or by Bill. It also showed that her negatives rose when she chose to go negative against Obama.

It was difficult after of months of defending Obama to just turn it off and let them be upset. To give them time and for them to be able to be angry at us for being happy our candidate won!
I actually had Clinton supporters slam me for being happy Obama had won!


by Grissom1001 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 07:34:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (2.00 / 2)

I've seen this sort of thing on the Internet 10 years ago.  Except it was between Babylon 5 and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine fans.


by Khun David on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:00:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (none / 0)

Heh. I am trying to think of what might be the dcurrent juxtaposition to Battlestar Galactica?


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 06:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the problem is... (2.00 / 9)

that some view any questioning or criticism as trolling.  but i know what you mean and agree.

its funny that during the primary, the trolls that pretended to support BO and bashed HRC and her supporters were never told to leave, but many thankfully have seemed to!

anway = rec'd!


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:17:08 PM EST

Re: the problem is... (2.00 / 3)

Thank you for the Recc!

And I agree with you about the trolls that were bashing HRC (and where I saw unfair comments I did my best to point it out... I am an equal opportunity trollbasher!)


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:22:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the problem is... (2.00 / 2)

some view any questioning or criticism as trolling.

Yeah, don't you just hate that?


by libertyleft on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i do. (2.00 / 2)

and the key part of that phrase is ANY questioning or criticism.  not constantly.  right LL?


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 01:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i do. (2.00 / 1)

It seems most only feel that way depending on if they agree with the person or not.


by libertyleft on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 01:39:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i do. (2.00 / 2)

make sure you don't look in a mirror when you type that, your reflection will burn out your eyes...


by zerosumgame on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 02:15:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i do. (2.00 / 2)


and the key part of that phrase is ANY questioning or criticism.  not constantly.  right LL?

I have a bunch of people following me around and troll rating me and calling me a troll including the author of the above quote because I pointed out someone was a one note Obama attacker and had never posted a positive Obama diary, in other words the very definition of constantly questioning or criticizing.  The very definition of troll we are talking about.

I, on the other hand, say plenty of positive things about Hillary, so I'm not the one in need of a mirror here.


by libertyleft on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 02:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

um no. (2.00 / 2)

i am not following you around.  you came into my diary about the media fail and how BO/JM agreed and started bashing HRC even though there was absolutely no reason to.  which in my limited experience with you seems like a pattern.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: um no. (2.00 / 1)

I described what happened in that comment, it wasn't even meant as a bash.  You read into it, I have no idea why.

You followed me into another diary to accuse me of trolling when I was pointing out another troll.

I say positive things about Hillary too, as you know, so whatever pattern your sensing obviously doesn't have enough data behind it.  If you have a problem with anything I write, please feel free to disagree and explain why.  I am happy to admit Obama and Hillary both had their positives and negatives to offer, and I'm not going to shy away from mentioning any of them.


by libertyleft on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

fair enough. (none / 0)


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:19:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (2.00 / 10)

Frankly, I'd rather have a beer with some of the crew at RedState than basically anybody at NoQuarter or HillaryIs44.  The RedState guys are for something at this point, while the latter two are really just against someone.  It's possible to amicably disagree about policy, but it's harder than hell to amicably tell someone that they've lost their goddamned minds and should know better.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:23:02 PM EST

Re: Go Back To Red State (2.00 / 2)

a fair and valid point.

I just like the way "Go back to Red State" sounds!

The No Quarter and Hill44 crowd, on the other hand, all hold a very special place in my heart...  


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:30:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (1.80 / 5)

They offer the most interesting spectacle available since carnivals stopped having geek tents.

The rubber man, the bearded lady and the two-headed sheep couldn't compete with Larry Johnson, Susanunpc, Admin, and the kilt.


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:55:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (none / 0)

I used to work with the RedState guy, Mike Krempasky. He's a huge douchebag. You don't want a beer with him.


by authority song on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:21:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (none / 0)

I did say "some" of them.  They've got no shortage of douchebags, but I've met five or six that don't treat me like dirt for being a self-professed liberal over there.

Some of them are capable of reasoned debate.  Only some, sadly.

Thanks for the heads up on that particular one, though.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll take Krempasky over racists (none / 0)

like the racist douchebags at NQ, the Confluence etc etc.


by Geekesque on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:21:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (2.00 / 2)

Thank you everyone for the reccs!

Never thought I would see a diary of mine on the list...I do appreciate the kindness everyone.

Glad you enjoyed (and I hope more come to enjoy it as well!)


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:34:22 PM EST

Flip Flop? (1.81 / 11)

When did "flip flop" become a GOP buzz word? It's been in the lexicon for decades, ask Bush 41 about this.

I think it's fair for people to point out hypocrisy. No one is above criticism.


by Chelsea in 2020 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:41:25 PM EST

Re: Flip Flop? (1.00 / 1)

So you're defending repug trolls? You see that is part of the problem. We have disgruntled hillary supporters supporting repug trolls. If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Flip Flop? (2.00 / 6)

way over the top response to a simple statement of fact. the HR is totally uncalled for and has been reported.


by zerosumgame on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 02:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Flip Flop? (2.00 / 4)

You call out everyone that recommends a diary that you don't agree with. IMO, it's not your place to make that call.


by soyousay on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Flip Flop? (2.00 / 2)

Uprating.  Nothing wrong with that remark.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 02:41:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Advice for Obama (2.00 / 5)

My wife is voting for Obama. I expect to be voting for Obama buy I'm not there "yet". As soon as this thing with Hillary is smoothed over I'll be on board. But in any case voting for McCain or anyone else is completely out of the question.

I know you folks are super sensitive to any critisim of Obama (RELAX, the corpse won't win), but I have one to make. Obama needs to put the race-bating to rest. He's on the winning side of the vast majority of the issues. People already want to vote for him.

Twice in the past week he's warned voters that the GOP will try to scare them and tell them he's too inexperienced, too young, has a funny name and that he's black.

There are two things wrong with this tactic. First, he's playing the race-card pre-emptively. He's not bringing up something that did happen and pointing the finger. He's bringing up something that he fears is going to happen. If the Republicans have played the race-card he should point it out and denounce it, but he didn't do that. Second, he's conflating the politically legitimate charge of being too inexperienced with race-bating. The former is a standard boilerplate camapaign issue that is even older than McCain, while the latter is completely unacceptable political behavior.

Again, If the Obama campaign has examples of race-bating by the Republicans then they should state their case and I'll be 100% behind them. But to throw the race-card out without any specific expamples makes it look like you're the one playing the race-card.

Playing the race-card is about the most politically dangerous thing you could do. Obama is playing with fire.

I fully expect to vote for the man but he needs to reevaluate his tactics on this issue.


by mmorang on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 02:52:44 PM EST

Re: Advice for Obama (2.00 / 3)

I think you have some strong thoughts on this issue and I certainly see where you are coming from.

The problem is that although McCain is not race-baiting there are many GOP shills that are.

A couple of examples:

Fox News referring to Michelle Obama has his "Baby Mamma."- There is no way to take this as anything other than racism at its finest. And there is no way to consider Fox News as anything other than a GOP Shill

The "White House" PINS that were being sold at the Texas GOP convention. This was racism being hawked at an offical party event.

The new ad that is out questioning whether or not Obama is a Muslim- This plays to a different fear, and different prejudice than the other two but is equally, if not more, evil.

My point is this- McCain is not stupid enough, or evil enough to get in the mud on race. But he is unwilling to even try and stop his supporters from doing so. Obama feels he needs to confront this head on and blunt the assault.

I am not sure I agree with his tactics and agree that he is playing with fire. But it is nice to see our nominee doing something other than taking punches when it comes to these rather scummy lines of attack.


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Baby Mama" (none / 0)

Christ, that one just gets my dander up all day long.  I like to say that I cut even Fox slack because they are what they are, but mother of god what an ignorant, thoughtless, foolish, miserable window that was into the real thoughts of the commentator in particular and the organization as a whole.

Rupert Murdoch can kiss my ass, and whoever that f*cking idiot was should be so f*cking fired it just isn't even funny.

-chris


"Because after an eight-year hiatus it is vital to have a president who leads the country instead of lassoing, roping and branding it." Shaun Appleby
by chrisblask on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (none / 0)

The examples you cite are over the line. Why doesn't Obama point them out specifically like you just did? I think that would make a big difference. If people think HE's bringing up the issue it will hurt him. But I buy your response above.


by mmorang on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:23:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (2.00 / 2)

Because he was not saying it to draw attention to specific attacks- he was saying it to inoculate himself from further attacks and racism.

By making everyone aware that such attacks are coming, and have in the past come, we will all be better prepared for them.

You also have to consider the atmosphere in which the specific comments were said. It was a fundraiser.

I also think that pointing out specific statements draws more attention to them and he doesn't want to do that.  


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:53:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He was talking about the 527s (2.00 / 3)

and the examples are there, such as today's fun ad already diaried.

No-one will use out and out N-word racism (at least not in public) and the most agregious examples (like that pin at the TX Rep convention) are just as offensive to both sides.  But the smear-mails and whisper campaigns are all over it, and will continue to be so.  

They are playing on real attitudes that linger out there, like a good friend of mine who offered up the "I don't dislike black folks, but I don't think they should marry white folks" comment.

Oh yeah, the thoughts are still out there.  The whiplash you get when they are voiced from unsuspected sources just shows how insidious the issue is.

I seriously do not think that Sen. Obama "plays the race card" - he is the race card.  It has nothing to do with intentionally "playing" something for his own benefit, it is simply a fact that as a black guy running for this office he is bringing up the topic, for better or worse.  Not acknowledging that would be as insincere as Sen. Clinton not acknowledging that, in exactly the same way, she is the gender card.

The best anyone in either situation can do, imho, is try to avoid talking about it any more than absolutely necessary, while not pretending to be so naive as to assume it is not an issue.

-best

-chris


"Because after an eight-year hiatus it is vital to have a president who leads the country instead of lassoing, roping and branding it." Shaun Appleby
by chrisblask on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:07:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (2.00 / 3)

Obama pointed out the four likeliest areas that have been in the past and might be in the future used as excuses why not to vote for him:

1. He's too inexperienced

  1. He's too young
  2. He has a funny name
4. He's black

You only quibble with #4.  Seems like you are saying that because he included it on the list he is race-baiting.

I disagree.  The 4 items on the list are all true but have nothing to do with whether he would make a good president so they belong together.  He has already listed things people have said about him that aren't true and has a whole website devoted to pointing that out.  


No Way, No How, No McCain!
by GFORD on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:20:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (2.00 / 3)

We disagree. You can argue whether Obama is experienced enough, but it is a completely legitimate issue to bring up...and so is McCain's old age (a quick aside: 71 is just too old, sorry mom).

What I disagree with is conflating the legitimate issues with the unacceptable ones.


by mmorang on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:30:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (none / 0)

What is illegitimate about it?

Race is one of the reasons I support him. I think a black president would be good for black kids. It also could help our international relations.

A female president would be good for girls. Sex and race are real issues that affect votes and what the leader can accomplish.


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:37:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (2.00 / 2)

Its unacceptable political discource and tactics for McCain to bring up Obama being black if he uses it as an argument AGAINST voting for Obama. Where as it is completely acceptable to bring up your opponents relative inexperience as a reason to not vote for him. An easy distiction.

As for the virtues of electing a black president or female president, yes, it would send a very positive message.

I happen to be hoping for a black president and female VP as long as they are both qualified in foreign and domestic policy. It won't do anyone any good to get someone in who does poorly. That will hurt the cause, not help.


by mmorang on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (none / 0)

You can consider it unacceptable, but it is going to be part of the discourse, either directly, as in the "swing state" noose t-shirt, or indirectly as in the Hil campaign's electability & Wright arguments.

So why not take it on directly, make fun of it?


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 06:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (none / 0)

Hillary was talking to Super Delegates and she was discussing HER stregth as a candidate. That discussion REQUIRES you to discuss race, religion, age and all other demographics. It was not only appropriate, it was necessary and every campaign does it.

At the time she made the statement, she didn't have deep support among hard working-class blacks, only hard working-class whites. I know how her statement could be twisted and why it was twisted. The Clinton campaign did not put her statement out to the general public so it could have any sway on the election, another campaign chose to jump on it and use it for political benefit.


by mmorang on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 07:12:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (2.00 / 1)

Dizzy I am,due to the force of this (apparent) spinning.


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:06:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (none / 0)

so what is your beliefe? You think Clinton was being racists on the phone because she didn't think anyone would play back her statement? That is utterly absurd.

You don't think race, age, religion and every other demographic is discussed with super delegates? Are you serious? Are you new to the planet?

Everything I said is obviously true. But I'd really be interested in what you think happened. That would be interesting.


by mmorang on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:16:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (none / 0)

And curious am I, about why someone with a reputation for incessant concern trolling here is suddenly so eager to offer up "advice".


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:38:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (none / 0)

Instead of logically arguing against my point you personally attack me. I guess that means I win the "argument".

Is that all you know to say is that someone is "concern trolling" when you disagree with them. Can't you offer up a logical rebuttal if you disagree.

So, I take it you think that Hillary was just being the racist she is, on the phone so anyone could play back her comments.

You don't think that demographics are discussed like race, religion, sex, age, etc., when they are making their case to the super delegates? You'll have to explain to me how it works.


by mmorang on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:22:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Guess away. (none / 0)

You may crown yourself winner of the argument - or emperor of the universe - for all I care.

I've engaged you openly and candidly. I've invested a lot of time and trouble in addressing your points, only to find that I've been pouring my energies down a black hole. Don't you preach to me about logical rebuttals - you've taught me the hard way that there are no logical rebuttals to a brick wall mentality.

You've already decided to be outraged, and nothing is going to change that. You are not open at all to any viewpoint other than your own. Your sole interest appears to be in polemics, and that is not an indulgence I plan to entertain. Wallow on endlessly in your self-imposed misery, if you must - and don't forget to stock up on your Maalox.

You'll need it.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:08:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (none / 0)

I love and respect Elie Weisel, but either you have the quote wrong or its just the dumbest quote I've seen.

In your case it should be: "I can't explain because I can't explain; I don't have the intellectual wherewithal to explain so I'll call you a concern troll."


by mmorang on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:27:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Whatever. (none / 0)

I don't have the quote wrong. But I'm not surprised that you consider what you do not understand to be "dumb".

And it really is very relevant and applicable to this conversation. Which, as far as I'm concerned, given your pleasant disposition at this point, is at an end.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:54:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advice for Obama (2.00 / 1)

Obama is responding to the blatant racism that's already aimed at him, and realizing this is only the beginning.


by rhetoricus on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What a trollish claim: (2.00 / 1)

I know you folks are super sensitive to any critisim of Obama

Pure, unadulterated, 100% Bullshit.

The Great Orange Satan, which is supposedly a bastion of "Obamabots" who are "super sensitive to any criticism", has a blistering front page article that is highly critical of Obama.

What we are supersensitive to, is crap like your statement.


by xynz on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a trollish claim: (1.00 / 1)

You don't think any of his supporters are not super sensitive to criticism? You think that's pure BS. Hmmm, I think every candidate, even the ones running for local dog-catcher have some over sensitive supporters.

If the comment doesn't apply to you then it wasn't meant for you. It was meant for the overly sensitive types.

Actually, it was meant for you and you are too sensitive. Take a chill pill and relax.

I have to say. If you are a Republican trying to piss a Hillary supporter off to throw the election McCAin's way you are effective. You no doubt will cost Obama some votes.


by mmorang on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:32:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yep, it's official: you're a troll. (none / 0)

You don't think any of his supporters are not super sensitive to criticism?

Yeah, that's exactly what I didn't say. But, it does make a nice strawman for you. Pummel away.


by xynz on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:19:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry, not buying this. (none / 0)

I applaud Obama for pre-empting their almost-certain mudslinging to follow - a strategically brilliant move. This takes the wind out of their sails, and gives him the "I told you so" hammer to hit them with.

He has merely presented a collective set of concerns - there is no "conflation". Further, warning about anticipated race-baiting is not the same thing as race baiting oneself.

Don't preach to us about "politically legitimate" charges when it comes to the GOP. They have so shredded every last sense of decency with their dirty tricks in the past that your pontification on this matter is more than a little absurd.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:24:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good shout out diary (2.00 / 5)

I must add one thing. You mention repug "buzz words". I would like for everyone to stop using the word "deadenders" in reference to some Clinon supporters. One, because it only keeps the wedge in place and two, because it is a phrase made famous by shooter and rummie!


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:18:51 PM EST

I agree. (2.00 / 2)

I have used it to refer to that 'special' group of anti-Obama people in the past but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  I won't use it again.


No Way, No How, No McCain!
by GFORD on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks (2.00 / 1)

All tho after this FISA crap, I am about ready to call pelosi and reid deadenders!  ;)


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:29:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

An Echo Chamber (2.00 / 4)

...is not what you want this place to become.  I agree that myDD is not the forum for pro-McCain Republicans to spout their talking points.  But our agreement stops right there.

The Democratic party is traditionally a big tent party.  Most Democrats here will vote for Barack Obama..and you need not worry about our nominee losing votes becaue of what people say or do on this site.  Some Democrats here (like myself) were/are Hillary Clinton supporters who will vote for Obama but are also not afraid to criticize some of the actions or decisions with which we disagree.  

THAT is what separates me from the rank-and-file Bushies who blindly followed their candidate between 1999 and 2005 (some still do today), to the obvious detriment of our democracy.


by MMR2 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:47:57 PM EST

Re: An Echo Chamber (2.00 / 1)

I have no problem with criticism of Obama. I don't even havea problem with people who will not vote for him (I think they are nuts, but I am fine with it.)

What I am not fine with is people who post the same crap in just about every diary. The people who call Obama's supporters hypocrites. The people who basically say they aren't voting for him because they don't like his supporters.

I have a problem with trolling. If you don't than thats fine for you.

If you, or anyone, want to have a reasoned and informed discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of Obama's candidacy thats fine. I am all for it. It will make the party stronger and him stronger in the long run.

If you want to talk about how he sucks simply because he is not Clinton. Or he sucks because of what the media did, or he sucks because of what his supporters said than it is a waste of time.

I am not asking for an echo chamber. I am asking for civility, decency, and real discussion... if you can't agree with that than I don't know what to say.


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:00:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Echo Chamber (2.00 / 2)

I totally agree with the need for civility, decency, and real discussion.  There are undoubtedly some narrow-minded Clinton folks who make shallow arguments, and then run away when confronted.  The 'troll' designation absolutely suits them.

But I think one of the obstacles to attaining "civility and decency" is often the use of the term 'troll' itself.  'Concern troll', for instance, is increasingly a way to attack and silence Clinton supporters who do have legitimate concerns, and who do want a real discussion with civility and decency.  When comments amount to "TROLL TROLL TROLL" or "Go to Hillaryis44, Troll", the fact of the matter is, we aren't being civil.


by MMR2 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:38:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (2.00 / 2)

Ahh, I agree that trolling is not helpful in anyway, but it does provide an invaluable source of humor, they are funny to point and giggle at.  Looky there, a complete intentional misrepresentation on a candidate's position (see dairy re Obama doesn't support Supreme Court's decision on habeus corpus), tee hee, liars are funny.

Plus you get to view the latest GOP talking points which can be advantageous


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:27:24 PM EST

Re: Go Back To Red State (none / 0)

True...and making fun of trolls got me to the rec list...

in light of that I say Yaaaaaaaay!!! Trolls!


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (1.50 / 4)

Of course, this diary is gobbledy-gook.

Obama supporters are all for a lot of things...in theory...but in actuality, not so much.

ANY criticism of Obama or expressions of doubt are met with attacks from his supporters, being called a troll and other things.

So your claims that your respect this and that is a tad hard to believe.

Actual Democrats, such as myself, who cannot stand McCain, would never vote for him, etc., have serious concerns about Obama and the whole Obama phenomenon.

Btw, I didn't like the vicious attacks leveled at Hillary Clinton by Obama supporters, but I didn't call them trolls and tell them to go elsewhere.

Obama supporters are to Obama what Repubs are to "Ameria": Love it or leave it; you're not a real (American/Democrat).  

Frankly, I don't like what Obama has in fact inspired.


by Juno on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:21:55 PM EST

Re: Go Back To Red State (none / 0)

If you would take the time to read my previous comments and diaries or talk with some of the Clinton supporters on this site you would know that I have a great deal of respect for Clinton, Obama, and civilized discourse.

I also love the phrase "actual Democrats, such as myself..." which you throw around as if to say that people such as myself are not actual Democrats- which would be news to the countless campaigns I have volunteered for, worked for, and donated to.


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 07:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (2.00 / 2)

Right, so now you know how offended we actual Democrats who were Clinton supporters and treated very badly by Obama supporters, called trolls, etc., feel.

What I meant by "actual Democrats" is in fact a response to your and other Obama supporters accusing us of being trolls and telling us to "go back to Red State".


by Juno on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 08:10:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (none / 0)

Do you do the things I mention in this Diary?

If you do you are a troll.

If you are engaging in reasonable dialog than you are not.

Which do you do?

That is the basis for whether or not you are a troll not whether you supported Obama or Clinton in the primary.  


"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I TRed you, because you.... (none / 0)

...stated something that is false and inflammatory.

Obama supporters are to Obama what Repubs are to "Ameria": Love it or leave it

This is demonstrably false. Here's an Obama supporter on the front page of dKos, voicing a blistering criticism that reflects the sentiment of a large segment of the community that supports Obama.


by xynz on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:39:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I TRed you, because you.... (2.00 / 2)

Excuse me, but I have never seen criticism of Barack Obama NOT met with accusations of the critic being a troll and/or not a real Democrat.

This thread is about sending such people over to Red State.

As for Kos, the Obama supporters over there were so brutal to Clinton supporters, they were driven off, and when Kos (I think it was him, but could have been an editor, but a principal nonetheless) were asked about it, they laughed and mocked the Clinton supporters and basically came right out and said they weren't welcome, were thin-skinned, and had a good-riddance attitude.


by Juno on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sigh.... (2.00 / 1)

Excuse me, but I have never seen criticism of Barack Obama NOT met with accusations of the critic being a troll and/or not a real Democrat.

And I've never seen criticism of Clinton not met with accusations of sexism, or being a troll...or whatever.

But, you won't see me claiming that means:

[Clinton] supporters are to [Clinton] what Repubs are to "Ameria": Love it or leave it.

Because I'm not going to generalize all Clinton supporters on the basis of what some Clinton supporters write.

This thread is about sending such people over to Red State.

No, the diarist very clearly stated who's supposed to go to Red State:

So, if you are here to sow division or really enjoy earning derision
Go back to Redstate.

If you are here to talk race baiting, or pounce on diaries like
a troll in waiting-
Go back to Redstate

But if you are here to tout McCain, and don't think we can see you plan
Go back to Redstate

Finally, in what way does your criticism of Kos address the fact that criticism of Obama is not only tolerated over there, but has been put on the Front Page?!


by xynz on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:11:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh.... (1.00 / 2)

There is no doubt that Obama supporters have changed their MO since he secured the nomination.  They all really, really admire Hillary again (after beating the crap out of her and her supporters); they're suddenly magnanimous in their realistic view of Obama (whenever I pointed out that Obama is actually a politician in the same mold as any other, has been inconsistent, etc., again, I was called a troll and a McCain hack), etc.

I'm sure you can't see what's gone on and what is going on.  The author's argument is specious.  He says he's not talking about Clinton supporters who aren't in love with Obama like he is. He's talking about McCain hacks.

Those are vague notions and all things are covered by each, so in actuality, ANY criticism of Obama IS considered trollish and the person is clearly a GOP shill and must return to Red State (you'd think it'd be Obamans of all people, let alone Democrats, who would be tolerant of all opinions!), but when the emphasis is on the author (ie: Obama supporters), the argument shifts to their being magnanimous toward Clinton supporters, because they want them, and so he's not talking about THEM.

Do you get this?

It's an argument a beginner philosopher can shred.


by Juno on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:15:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We get it (2.00 / 2)

you're mad because somebody on the internet was mean to Hillary and her supporters.  We got it the first thousand times you cried about it.


by JJE on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:25:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh.... (1.33 / 3)

Right, you TR'd me.

I rest my case.

And btw, Obama supporters see race baiting in cloud formations.

Without bogus accusations of race baiting, Obama wouldn't have won the nomination and won't win the General, so it's good you're continuing this cynical campaign tactic.

How very Rovian!


by Juno on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:54:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go Back To Red State (none / 0)

Hillary supporters who are getting on board, but are hesitant or lack enthusiasm for the nominee

That be me!


by Newport News Dem on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:46:30 PM EST

Re: Go Back To Red State (none / 0)

You said it.  And it needed to be said.  Thanks.


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 08:07:08 PM EST

I too am tired (none / 0)

of the repetitive trolling.

Trolls: if you must make a nuisance of yourself, do try to be as creative with your trolling as you are with the truth. That would allow for the exercise of at least some ingenuity in your ensuing verbal demolishment.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 02:01:13 AM EST

Re: Go Back To Red State (none / 0)

Thanks for the diary.  I agree with it 100%.  

I never expected the trolls to go away on their own.  I expected Jerome would kick them out.  He doesn't seem to want to do that however.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:09:01 AM EST


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