Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs

In spite of the fact that sexism has been such a prominent dynamic in this campaign, the thrust of much mainstream public conversation is that Obama should pick a Republican or conservative Democrat to balance the ticket. Even when we're talking about Democrats, that almost always means someone willing to occasionally defenestrate women's rights or health. I don't want to get started on what a slap the anti-choice Chuck Hagel (R-NE) would be, but Jim Webb wouldn't be much better.

And while all and sundry Obama supporters bask in the joy of his ascendant, dudely vibe, it's becoming readily apparent that feelings are raw beyond all civility, even if people are probably going to unify. The Democratic Party is very popular right now, yet while the nomination might be in the bag, the general election isn't, and Democrats should have learned about the consequences of giving the finger to large constituencies during the NAFTA fight. Remember, the clusterfrak that took the wind out of the sails of the other Clinton's presidency?

Any discussion about the selection of the vice presidency can't be held in a vacuum as if the primary hadn't happened, infighting and all. Some caveats, though ... There are a lot of legitimate reasons a person might have had to support someone besides Hillary Clinton for the nomination. They were both good candidates, there's no cause to make assumptions without evidence about why anyone in particular supported one of them.

The only major demographic group still supporting Clinton to the tune of 51% or more is women aged 50 and older. This group's preferences have changed little during May, at the same time that Clinton's support among younger men (those 18 to 49) has declined by nearly 10 points. - Gallup

... Pundits debated whether Clinton's tears were "real" or "manufactured" -- that is, whether she was some weak sob sister who couldn't hack the rough-and-tumble of a man's world, or just a power-grabbing witch who would do anything to hang on to her broomstick.

A few, such as San Francisco Chronicle reporter Carla Marinucci, offered more cogent appraisals. She pointed out that female voters didn't seem to be responding to Clinton's tears so much as to their outrage at men's reactions to those tears (in particular, men in the media). ... - Susan Faludi

Maybe you hated the loathesome Mark Penn, a sentiment shared even by many HRC supporters that include me and, by reports, quite a few of her campaign staff. Maybe you just couldn't get over her war vote, and I understand that, it was sort of a big deal. I'm not going to talk about those reasons here.

... Hence the appalling preponderance of violent, death-infused imagery in conversations about Clinton, smuggled into otherwise ordinary political discourse like a knife taped on the bottom of a cake plate: On CNN, pundit Alex Castellanos said democrats must realize that "it's time to take the family dog to the vet." Matthews' MSNBC colleague Keith Olbermann expressed the hope that "somebody will take her into a room--and only he comes out." CNN's Jack Cafferty gleefully floated the specter of Clinton being run over by a flatbed truck. A recent Tribune editorial compared Clinton to a euthanized Kentucky Derby contender. ... - Julia Keller (via)

It could be that you decided not to support her because you felt that her campaign and surrogates descended into racist tactics that, whatever the potential intent of various parties might have been, caused people a lot of pain. It's not my purpose to address that here, either, and I doubt I'm the most qualified person to do so. I want to discuss the sexism that's been brought to light in this campaign, within the media, within the Democratic Party, and not to put those two dynamics in a face off. As if the horror of the one could change the vileness of the other. Or as if, just because women sometimes join in the misogynist fun, that can make it all right.

... She is, according to author Andrew Sullivan, akin to the zombies in the film "28 Days Later" (2002), as well as that knife-wielding harpy in "Fatal Attraction"--the one with the relentless, rapacious, inhuman will: "It's alive!" Sullivan wrote, adding, "Whoosh--She's back at your throat." The comparison between the Close character and Clinton also seemed apt to U.S. Rep. Steve Cohen (D-Tenn.), who wrote, "Glenn Close should've stayed in that bathtub." Translation: Death. Comedian Chris Rock loves the "Fatal Attraction" link as well. Ditto for blogger Wil Wheaton, who played Wesley in the TV series "Star Trek: The Next Generation," who dubbed Clinton "the psycho ex-girlfriend of the Democratic party." ... - Julia Keller

Full Firing? Or Just Gelded? ... Is Penn really out? Completely, positively out? ... - Josh Marshall

Racism and sexism are not like matter and antimatter. They do not cancel each other out (via). Oppressions, by that way of looking at them, invert and then turn into some weird sort of privilege over others, which is ridiculous; observe that lesbians of color do not run the world. Instead, Black women get whipsawed about whether they're gender traitors or race traitors when these dynamics come into conflict, like they need that crap.

Often, when people bring bigotries up together, they do it as if to say, 'here, so-and-so is suffering too, so be quiet.' That's both unhelpful and inappropriate. Can we skip that part, here, and talk about some things that need to be considered when picking a vice presidential candidate?

Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life.

S. 3 As Amended; Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. Vote to pass a bill banning a medical procedure, which is commonly known as "partial-birth" abortion. Those who performed this procedure would then face fines and up to two years in prison, the women to whom this procedure is performed on are not held criminally liable. This bill would make the exception for cases in which a women's life is in danger, not for cases where a women's health is in danger. - Evan Bayh's abortion issues record.

See here, here and here for what it meant to vote yes on that ban without a health exception.

As a kid, did it ever make you feel better about eating your Brussel sprouts that there were kids going hungry in [insert impoverished region here]? No? Me neither. Acting as though one oppression obviates another is sort of like that, but about a million times more of a non sequitur.

... Just a few years ago, Webb described America's elites in terms that might be familiar to the fans of Fox News. Liberals were "cultural Marxists," and "the upper crust of academia and the pampered salons of Hollywood" were a fifth column waging war on American traditions. ... - Excerpted from a Rolling Stone article about Sen. Jim Webb, 2007.

... This is the only country in the world where women are being pushed toward the battlefield. The United States also has one of the most alarming rates of male-to-female violence in the world: Rapes increased 230 percent from 1967 to 1977 and the much-publicized wife-beating problem cuts across socioeconomic lines.

These are not separate issues, either politically or philosophically. They are visible peaks in what has become a vast bog. They are telling us something about the price we are paying, in folly on the one hand and in tragedy on the other, for the realignment of sexual roles.

... There is a place for women in our military, but not in combat. And their presence at institutions dedicated to the preparation of men for combat command is poisoning that preparation. By attempting to sexually sterilize the Naval Academy environment in the name of equality, this country has sterilized the whole process of combat leadership training, and our military forces are doomed to suffer the consequences. ... - Jim Webb: Women Can't Fight, 1979, emphasis mine

Consider, for example, that there's nothing that's going to make me feel better about the fact that when I inevitably become old, I will become to a lot of people nothing more nor less than a fat, ugly, white bitch who needs to get my arse out of the way. Because about the worst thing a woman can be is unsightly (via). Nothing would make that better besides living in a society in which it becomes untrue.

For women, if we're not pleasing, it often follows that we're useless. That's why strange men so often tell us to smile. They're just reminding us that our purpose in life is to visually delight them, that we need to be happy, friendly and ready with our laughter, but not our cackling, because no one likes being around those humorless feminists. Aww thanks for the heads up, sweetie, you shouldn't have. Really.

He said he'd do anything for her, anything. 'Will you tell me the secret of your strength, my love?' Then he told her, because he loved her. So Delilah did steal shears into his bedchamber, cut his long hair, and deliver him into the hands of his enemies to be tortured.

Some Obama supporters also seem to want to believe that there hasn't been much sexism in this campaign. Or that if there was, it didn't really affect anything. Or if it did, stop crying about it, I'm sick of listening to you whine; god, you're worse than a child. Maybe they want to think that Obama won this 'fair and square', or whatever. That he wasn't helped by being a man competing with a woman in a sexist society. It must raise disturbing questions about whether or not you, if you're a guy, benefit from it, too. And men do. Even if they don't seek any such benefits. Even if they're feminists. Sorry to break it to you.

If you can't face that discomfort, you can't be part of the solution to the problem. If that discomfort prevents you from hearing women point out cases of sexism that you, or people you support, have benefitted from, if you turn every such discussion into how you never meant to do anything wrong, you are part of the problem.

It's not like you'd ought to mope about it though, either. What good's that going to do, besides make you sound like a jerk? And don't get started by asking me how to fix it. First, listen.

"He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" - Matthew 11:15

And why won't you calm down, anyway, what are you so angry about? Christ. You never listen. I heard you the first time, and the third; you just don't know what you're talking about, so shut up. You're such a bitch sometimes.

I was at a meeting in [major city] today and bumped into a fellow female [low-level state party official]. She could barely get out how much she hated him ... she was so angry ... she's a Dem and eventually she will vote for him ... fortunately [state] is so blue it won't matter how angry woman are. ... oh I forgot to mention she's gay and they are furious as well ... But those guys just totally underestimate the female anger out there ... [There's a] difference between hardcore Dem[ocratic women] and the other kind: indies, republicans and women who will only go to the polls for her.

- Private email from an anonymous low-level state party official to me.

he only hit me a couple times. but the yelling, the insults, the fights he would start at all hours, the vicious phone calls while i was at work ... it all got to be too much. when he found me that day sitting in the closet with his gun in my mouth, trying to talk myself out of my cowardice and praying to distant gods through my tears, (just pull it, just do it, it can all be over today) i don't know whether i was more angry, sad or relieved to have been stopped. 'the safety's on,' he said. god. i'm every bit as pathetic and useless as he always says. i love him, i hate him, i hate myself for not leaving. i've never had a 'real' job, where would i go? sometimes i take my anger out on the cats. sometimes i barely talk for days. please, please, make it stop.

Hillary is "petulant, arrogant, whiny... a spoiled brat." She's "insane," worthy of hate. She's childish. A desperate, spurned lover. And, as ever, shrill... shrill... shrill... shrill. And, oh yeah, cold. (Brrrrr!) She doesn't have a heart, and she's jealous and vindictive (over, uh, boys?)  Any woman who votes for her is voting with her vagina, not her brain. When she "periodically... is feeling down" she goes on the attack! She's ruthless.She has claws! But dude, there's nothing sexist about saying that! Especially according to the guys. And, you know, she really ought to just be beaten... to death. I mean, c'mon--don't you just want to punch her in the face? After all, she's ambitious, dominant, and controlling. She's carping, and a liar, and frigid, and when she smiles it's fake. She's controlling and humorless. Watch out--she'll bite you! And watch out for her supporters, too--those ladies, when they don't get what they want, they tend to go a little crazy! They may even cut your balls off. Ooh, but she has balls of her own--three of them! Arianna Huffington agrees with Maureen Dowd: Hillary's just a little wittle girl. - Erica Barnett ("claws" link altered from original posting, where it was broken)

Man in -Bros Before Hoes- tshirt. Obama rally, Philadelphia, 4/18/08 - by Natasha ChartWe're a liberated society, better than all those brown nations. But if a woman is walking alone at night, or out alone with a group of male friends, and 'something' happens to her, she deserved it. Especially if she wasn't wearing enough, then she was asking for it, even if she said no. Why wasn't she taking any precautions? And so what if she said no. You can never trust the word of a woman, anyway; they never say what they mean, such liars. Such monsters. Such whores. Oh wait, it's the 21st century ... I meant to say 'hoes'.

... [O]verall women were more likely to be abused by an intimate partner than men, particularly for the more severe kinds of violence. For example, women were seven times as likely to have been threatened with a gun; 14 times as likely to report having been "beat up" by a partner; and twenty-six times as likely to have been raped. ... - Ampersand, 2004

... Homicide is the fourth leading cause of death among all American women of childbearing age; and one-third of all female murder victims each year are killed by an intimate partner. As pioneering medical researchers reexamine death reports of murdered women, looking for signs that the victim was pregnant, they are concluding that often, the killer of a pregnant woman is the partner or spouse of the mother-to-be. ... - Mary Papenfuss, Salon, 2003

... Nationally, homicide is a leading killer of young women--pregnant or not. In 1999, homicide was the second-leading cause of death among women ages 20 to 24. It was fifth among women ages 25-34. Accidents are the top cause of death in both age groups.

The Maryland study reinforced at least two earlier studies that found homicide to be the top killer of pregnant women.

... Police records show that homicidal violence cuts across all races and classes.

"There is no profile of what these men look like," Sharps said. "Many are educated, upstanding citizens." - Kim Curtis, AP, 2003

Well, what do we do now? Hmmm. Good question.

I always hate it when people assume that I'm telepathic, so I almost (via) want to help the confused on this one out of reciprocal empathy. But also, I can't sit on your shoulder all the time. Consider the discomfort; I dislike heights and prefer latitude to pace. This could leave us at an impasse.

Though I can tell you, once again, that this is much bigger than the Democratic nomination. That's been decided. Now everyone wants to know how to heal the party and what I'm saying is that it isn't going to happen if the same disregard for women's issues prevails in the vice presidential candidate selection process as it has done in the tenor of commentary coming from the media, and sadly, too many Democratic Obama supporters.

... Linda Hirshman to Andrew Golis of TPM Café: "So why did I not make the cut? Is writing for the times and the Post not good enough for TPM?"

Andrew: "It's not a matter of prestigious clippings, Linda. We're trying to both keep long-standing contributers [sic] around and flesh out the discussion by involving people who are covering things we're not yet addressing."

Linda: "And do you have a lot of contributors covering the female voters, who are likely to determine the outcome of the election of the President of the United States? I am assuming it's not that you don't want anyone who's not already in the tank for Obama. I am serious, here, Andrew. I think this is a real mistake; I have a point of view you don't have much of, I am getting increasingly prestigious opportunities to write and opine, and this is the moment you should capitalize on your relationship with me, not drop me."

Andrew: "I'm not sure the accusation of bias is particularly helpful. For now, like I said, we're focusing on getting our long-standing regulars and folks covering things we don't on the blog. I recognize that you think female voters should be one of those things, we disagree."

Take health care. Puberty usually signals for guys in this country the advent of some 30+ years of relatively good health, while it gives women the need for yearly medical exams and the potential for some very expensive and potentially dangerous medical conditions. STDs that might not even cause symptoms for a man can give women cancer or render us sterile. Women still do the bulk of both child and elder care, which means regular contact with two other subsets of the population that have even more routine health problems. And women still make less money, and are less likely to have health insurance, in a system where health care has become prohibitively expensive.

Getting a VP pick who's bad on this issue just isn't going to go over well. Obama has essentially got the version of the Democratic standard health care plan that runs its appeal on allowing young dudely types to bail out of the whole thing, and you know, any woman who makes it to a certain age has heard that story a few too many times.

... But the real objection is probably more deep-seated: homosexuality is threatening because it seems to challenge the conventional rules governing a person's sex, their sexual preferences and the general female and male roles in society.

... As Freud understood, most societies are based on relationships between men - most powerful institutions like parliaments or business corporations are male-dominated. And this 'male-bonding' demands a certain degree of sexual sublimation.

... In many societies the links between men are much stronger than the relations which link them to women. But these bonds are social rather than individual, and for this reason need to be restricted. ... Thus the most extreme homophobia is often found among tightly-knit groups of men, who need both to deny any sexual component to their bonding and who can increase their solidarity by turning violently on 'fags' or 'queers' who are defined as completely alien.

... Those societies which are best able to accept homosexuals are also societies which are able to accept assertive women and gentle men, and they tend to be less prone to the violence produced by hypermasculinity. - Dennis Altman

It doesn't escape women's notice that the worst thing you can call a man in most circumstances is a word that implies he's a woman. Or that he's spent too much time around a strong woman and has become castrated by contagion.

No one can possibly have missed that this mocking feminization, based on exaggerated and demeaning stereotypes of women's standard gender roles, is the most common way to smear gay men. Sissy. Mary. Sweetheart. That it's a form of social enforcement that sometimes (or often) prevents straight men from being comfortable expressing emotion, being helpful to their partners, being close to their families, or simply expressing disinterest in stereotypically male activities that they just don't care for.

Lesbians are held up as almost ungendered bogeymen, monstrously masculinized beings that straight women have to fear being mistaken for. Because in a patriarchal authoritarian [1] system, strength is inherently male and women who have it end up dancing on a knife's edge of having to perform enough femininity to try and escape mockery.

While it might take a professor to highlight it authoritatively, most women know it. Know that the authoritarian wellspring of homophobia is the same thing that poisons gender relations.

Getting a VP candidate that's poor on LGBT issues, another of the easy ways for a Democrat to garner 'conservative' or 'moderate' credentials, bad plan. Do we need to have the McClurkin conversation again? Good. Because I don't want to have any of those conversations over. Not ever.

There are other issues that it would be relevant to bring up, but I expect that I don't need to spell them all out from this point.

Anyway, please stop worrying so very much about winning Appalachia, which someone like Webb won't necessarily help anyway (via). Start worrying about keeping the base of the Democratic Party intact. There isn't any non-White-dude sector of the party coalition that isn't sick to the damn teeth of the 'where else are you going to go' schtick, so how about we actually do try something different this time around and spend less time pissing in each other's corn flakes? The unity candidate won, after all, that shouldn't in theory be so radical a proposal.

This year, many female voters have just had it, really had it.  

And then when we bring this up, a common response is 'stop acting like a victim.' I realize that being a victim is a terrible insult in patriarchal cosmology, and no dude ever wants to admit to it, nor any woman aspiring to dudely approval. (Especially not the women, because making dudes feel bad when they've been sexist is totally unappealing in a chick.) Being a victim isn't about having someone do something wrong to you, it's admitting that someone bested you in a contest of strength, punked you, p0wned you, and that makes you, like, a woman.

Ahem.

So don't even go there. But hey, let's talk vice presidents.

-------------------

Adapted from previous essays

[1] - And by patriarchal authoritarianism, I mean a system of power-seeking based on strongly hierarchical social and gender [2] relationships, self-denial [3], complicated codes of personal behavior that keep people focused on personal instead of public morality and sharply restrict/pathologize sexuality, particularly that of women, that idolize and idealize power as something to be held by someone who embodies a stern and unyielding archetype of male dominance.

As Robert Heinlein (he had some funny ideas, but also, a lot of keen insight) said in "Revolt in 2100":

Take sex away from people. Make it forbidden, evil. Limit it to ritualistic breeding. Force it to back up into suppressed sadism. Then hand the people a scapegoat to hate. Let them kill a scapegoat occasionally for cathartic release. The mechanism is ages old. Tyrants used it centuries before the word 'psychology' was ever invented. It works, too.

Though there also seem to be a lot of people who are comforted by membership in authoritarian structures (which might not say anything essentialist about their personalities, they might even be non-ideological types plugging in for the sake of gaining power in a climb to the top of some bodies,) and seem to enjoy insisting that everyone else join up, and I think they can fairly be called carriers. Whether they believe or not is almost irrelevant to their function as enforcers or recruiters.

[2] I'd argue that authoritarianism holds women (and people impressed by popular sentiment with feminine traits, which may include entire races or nations) to be its first icon of a category of adult that, child-like, can't manage their own affairs, be trusted to be rational, or allowed any position of power from which they could seek retribution for their treatment.

This last is at the heart of authoritarian cruelty, because the enforcer knows simultaneously at some level that a) if they were treated similarly they'd become vindictive, b) continuing physical/psychic brutality will break the target's spirit so that they're less likely to come to be in such a position of power and must be c) used as a twisted justification for keeping the (add target)s down because they'd just act out 'irrationally', ie, exactly as the offender is acting. But maybe worse.

A sexist society is by definition authoritarian, though degrees of repression can vary significantly from manifestation to manifestation. Authoritarianism requires, as a foundation stone, distrust between men and women and stunted, crippled sexual love impulses whose full energies can then be harnessed for other ends. You can see its full flower in religious fundamentalism (h/t Mary @ PacificViews) of just about every kind, as religion is the usual enforcement mechanism. Though it is not an essentially religious philosophy; in describing the masses as feminine, this is exactly what was meant by the ultimate authoritarian, Hitler.

Misogyny is the usual first step towards creating people who can look at another human being and see an animal or a thing instead of a person.

[3] You saw "Dead Poets' Society", right? Consider that Neil's father was the ultimate authoritarian 'hard worker,' and all he was trying to do for his son was to teach him a particular type of work: self denial. Self negation, really.

The person is never to be themselves, they are to be a role. This is properly considered to be work [4], because no matter the position achieved thereby, it is forever difficult, brutal, dirty and unpleasant.

The true sin of the Dirty eFfing Hippie is that they are attempting to be happy, instead of diligently working to be a machine part. No one incapable of doing this unstated, and transcendently moral (in the authoritarian system of morality,) work of a true 'adult' will be given respect in an authoritarian environment.

[4] Specifically, it's mainly male work. Self negation involves a lot of negation of humanity, the senses of empathy and connection to others are expressly to be sacrificed, put to fire and the sword. This is painful.

As has been noted by others, women do less of this type of work because the separation of the female and male spheres of influence (private vs. public) is done to preserve a space in society where empathy and connection can be expressed such that people don't completely lose their shit, what with all the emotional repression.

... If the fathers of capitalist theory (Hobbes, Smith, Locke) had chosen a mother instead of a single bourgeois male as the smallest economic unit for their theoretical constructions they would not have been able to formulate the axiom of the selfish nature of human beings the way they did. They would have realized that human beings can be both selfish and altruistic, both aggressive and caring. They would have seen that human life is not just 'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short' and that the law of history is not only the 'war ... of every man against every man (Hobbes); they would have been able to observe that people cooperate with each other, live in communities, can be peaceful and merciful and, in spite of hardships, enjoy and celebrate life.

Lieselotte Steinbrügge has shown that the Enlightenment philosophers of the eighteenth century were clearly aware of the difficulty the capitalist philosophy of the self-interested, competitive, rationally calculating, individualistic homo oeconomicus would create for society. What would happen, they asked, to mercy, peace, love, generosity etcetera?

They solved this difficulty by separating the public from the private spere and creating two different kinds of ethics, one for the private, the other for the public sphere. The responsibility for 'private' values was then relegated to women, while men could pursue their 'war of all against all' in the public sphere of politics, militarism and economics (Steinbrügge 1987).

The anthropology of the lonely, egotistic, male human warrior fits well into the cosmology based on a concept of nature as principally poor, stingy, with permanently scarce resources. As Carolyn Merchant has plausibly demonstrated, before the Renaissance nature was conceptualized as generous Mother Nature, a female organism with inexhaustible wealth and resources (Merchant 1980). But the theoreticians of capitalist patriarchy, above all Bacon, turned her into a stingy witch from whom 'rational man' has to extract her treasures by coercion and torture. ...

- From "The Subsistence Perspective", by Veronika Bennholdt-Thomsen & Maria Mies, 1988

Women are the safety valve for an emotionally crippled society, but ... it means they explicitly don't do the work of self negation -- so just like rebellious children, people of allegedly lesser classes or races, etc., they don't do the full work of adults and are by definition incapable of self-governance. Not least because, see above, the 'natural' vindictive tendencies of someone targeted for repressive abuse would in theory not be tempered by any kind of self-restraint, making them doubly unfit for holding power over others.



Display:


Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (1.50 / 2)

My god couldn't you have written something a little more manageable.

I don't deny the excellent work you have done but geesh Natasha !!

Get to the point lol


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:27:11 PM EST

TL;DR (2.00 / 1)

My top two realistic picks are Sebelius or McCaskill. Whoever it is, I'm guessing it'll be someone who came out for Obama before May.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:29:38 PM EST

Re: TL;DR (none / 0)

those are 2 unrealistic picks.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:31:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TL;DR (none / 0)

You're welcome to your opinion. I think either's pretty likely.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:31:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TL;DR (none / 0)

Why unreaslistic?  Sebelius is pretty damn realistic, unless you think that Hillary HAS to be his choice.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not McCaskill. (none / 0)

Less than two years a senator.  Plenty of baggage from Missouri.  Being state auditor does not prepare one for the presidency. No experience and too conservative.  


by TomP on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:46:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not McCaskill. (2.00 / 1)

Don't forget the most important reason, we don't exactly have a huge majority in the senate and there just isn't a good reason to take a senator from a state where it's not a sure thing to replace them with a democrat in the next election.  That also disqualifies Jim Webb and Evan Byah in my opinion.


by fangthang on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:05:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sebelius/McCaskill (none / 0)

any woman out there is going to be a slap to the face of her supporters if the VP slot hasn't been offered and declined by Clinton first.  It will stink of tokenism.  And we are also more than a little sensitive to "anyone but Hilary, no matter how smart and qualified she is."  

There a strong argument that Clinton helps that ticket and several kind of strong arguments that she hurts it. In my mind the fight to keep her off the ticket by some Obama supporters is looking pathological, like some sort of Hilary Complex or something.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:11:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

To those who doubted (2.00 / 3)

To those who doubted when I stated that the admins here approve of the "Inadequate black male" video, please note that a diary citing it has now been promoted to the front page.


by libertyleft on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:32:21 PM EST

Re: To those who doubted (none / 0)

The admins are fine with bigotry as long as it's not quite as blatant as the No Quarter / H44 variety.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:33:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What are you talking about? (2.00 / 1)

I in no way approve of that comment, and if you read what was said in the post I linked to as a citation, the author was making the point that people are angry to the degree that they'd say awful things like that when they know they're being videotaped.

Am I not allowed to talk about something without someone assuming an endorsement of it? Did you read any of the other links to people's posts about the racial aspects of this race further down?


by Natasha Chart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:45:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are you talking about? (2.00 / 1)

To clarify and expand, I think that at the start of this campaign, it would have been pretty well understood that a comment like that is unacceptable. Even people who were prone to thinking like that would have been inclined to check themselves in public, but even that level of hypocritical social conformity is out the window when people are seen acting out like that.


by Natasha Chart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are you talking about? (2.00 / 2)

This subject is a raw one.  Your use of the video is for a completely different purpose -- and I certainly didn't see an endorsement.  The problem is that the video has been used twice to inflame controversy and was endorsed, along with another fake video (the bruise lady) to somehow link those sentiments with Clinton supporters.

Not in your case, but I found the other two postings a complete insult to Senator Clinton who would have been appalled by such an attribution to her campaign.  There's a difference between instruction -- as demonstrated herein, and ugliness.


by gchaucer2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:51:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This isn't an argument for or from her campaign (2.00 / 1)

Her supporters are incredibly angry and their votes are important. You can't make that not true by disliking that people are angry.

It's awful that it's gotten to the point where people are acting this way, which as you note, isn't a way that Clinton's campaign would endorse and not representative of her supporters. It's like the man said, I can't believe it's gone this far and gotten this bad.

I can't tell you how horrified I am to have watched the way various people have acted, threatened, given excuse to things they'd have previously deplored, attacked each other, what have you. A statement like that woman made is godawful, but ... these are all Democrats we're talking about. These are all the activists we need to work towards a general election victory, all votes we're going to need in order to defeat the most popular Republican in decades.


by Natasha Chart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:14:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you. (2.00 / 3)

I have been an Obama supporter since Dodd dropped out.  While I have certainly expressed extreme anger over some things from the Clinton campaign, I have consistently defended her from vile attacks.  No one can convince me that that vile woman in the video is a real Democrat -- if she is, I won't be sorry if she disappears from the party.  The other video, the "bruised woman" was completely debunked by a number of doctors -- i.e., impossible for that type of bruise to appear that quickly -- she may either be a deluded Clinton supporter or a plant, I don't know.  

I know Clinton supporters and they are some of the most ardent Democrats.  Like Alice Huffman, they understand the importance of party over person.  I honestly cannot waste my time on rabid dead-enders when there are hurt and confused Democrats out there who need, not a condescending welcome, but time and information.

I have spent most of my 36 years of voting -- voting for a candidate who was not my choice.  I truly believe that the good Clinton supporters --
which is an overwhelming majority -- do not need my coaxing.  They already have a moral and social conscience and damned good sense.

Thank you for your diary and responding to my comment.


by gchaucer2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are you talking about? (2.00 / 1)

You can use that excuse to post anything.  The video is offensive and has no place being used to pimp your political point, no matter what it is.


by libertyleft on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:05:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama (none / 0)

Hilary shoud extend the invitation to Obama! :)


by Newport News Dem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:33:42 PM EST

Evan Bayh is a Clinton supporter. (none / 0)

You do realize this, don't you?


by kjblair2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:34:24 PM EST

I don't care (2.00 / 1)

What does it matter? Both candidates competed for the endorsements of a great many people who'd be unsuitable veeps. It's not relevant to the issue at hand.


by Natasha Chart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:30:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

The polling is pretty clear on the VP subject. John Edwards. He even beat Hillary Clinton and Al Gore in the last Michigan poll. That is a very big deal.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:37:31 PM EST

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (2.00 / 1)

He may be the best choice out of those with extremely high name recognition, but that's all we know at this point.


democracy!
by BlueGAinDC on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

I agree that it's still very preliminary, but it definitely calls into question ALL of the criteria we have been using to figure out who his VP should be. America has no interest in getting a military man in there, they want someone they can identify with.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

I don't think it calls into question any of the criteria we've been discussing. I bet not more than 10% of Americans have any idea who Webb is. Most people probably have no idea about his military credentials.

Same goes with most other candidates for VP. We won't ever know who's best, because it will take a couple months after being chosen before people will get to know the candidate. Only then will we really know their value on the ticket.


democracy!
by BlueGAinDC on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:04:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

For God's sake, LOOK at the polls Survey USA has been doing: http://www.surveyusa.com/

There is not ONE POLL for which Edwards is shown to be a liability. All I can think is that the conventional wisdom that Obama needs a strong, experienced veep must be wrong.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:43:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

The polls are really only relevant if the VP choice being polled has sufficient name recognition.  Edwards has huge name recognition, so of course he polls well.  Most of the others polled have very little name recognition.  That would also be one of the reasons Romney polls so well as VP on the Republican side.  


by fangthang on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:12:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

I don't see Edwards on the ticket.  Bad ju ju to put someone on who was on the losing ticket the last election cycle.


by JustJennifer on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:43:12 PM EST

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

I don't know that it really makes a difference. People hate John Kerry, but clearly they didn't mind Edwards at all. But with Axelrod having run both their campaigns, it could be the most message-driven Democratic cycle in a very long time.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:47:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

Kerry ran a crappy campaign.  Is there one person here who disagrees?  It wasn't Edwards fault.  Obama's campaign would make better uses of Edwards' strengths.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

I agree.  But that said, I agree with JustJen.  You need someone in the VP who isn't afraid to be a junkyard dog.  In this case, particularly, since the nominee is percieved (by many including me) to be a "nice" guy.  His message is unity so he needs someone else responding to the Swift Boaters with force.

<preemptive response>
And no, Juno, that doesn't mean he's got a problem.  I know, he's talking about bringing people together BUT there is a way to do that while NOT TAKING SHIT FROM ANYBODY!  
</preemptive response>


Let's elect a Dem President!
by SpanishFly on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:38:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sorry, I cannot hear over the dogwhistle... (2.00 / 3)

In spite of the fact that sexism has been such a prominent dynamic in this campaign,

Is that like an anti-Obama-supporter firewall?
`
"I know, I will put a clause at the beginning of the first sentence that is guaranteed to set off 50% of the democratic population, and then I can act offended and accuse everyone of being unreasonable!!!!!"

?

Holy malacka.  Sure is a good thing this place is so even handed, not like that horrible Great Orange Satan.

-sheesh

-chris


Donate!
by chrisblask on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:46:13 PM EST

Re: I'm sorry, I cannot hear over the dogwhistle.. (2.00 / 1)

Sexism has not been a prominent dynamic in the race. The examples brought up are horrid, but they have hardly been terribly common. Some shock jocks said "iron my shirt." Some airports sell an offensive nutcracker. Some pundits said nasty things.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

This 50 year old woman and feminist admires Clinton for some things, but doesn't admire her vote to go to war.  And, you know what, that matters to me.

I'd like to vote for a woman like Barbara Jordan, someone truly courageous.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The death of Sexism and Racism - our kids (none / 0)

Good comment, PM.

Until this moment it had not crossed my mind to think about whether you were male or female.  Given the comment I just wrote (or pasted) about my kids and sexism, this reminds me of the perspective we try to raise our kids with (or do not try, which is kinda more the point).

In the spirit of my current laziness (or maybe I can claim pro-environment recycling), I am going to share my letter to Ms. Ferraro.  I do not think I can say it any better than I did then, so here that is whole damn thing.

I warn that it shows my strong bias, but it was truthful then and I feel the same now.

Dear Ms. Ferraro,

I am personally hurt by your recent words.  As a young man I watched your candidacy with youthful hope that I was watching the change from the Old Ways of judging people by their skin, by their gender, by their biology.

Now I am a father of two girls and a boy.  Your words make me flinch with the fears and the guilt that I have gotten over as an adult.  They make me want to protect my children from the accusations and sick memes that refuse to die off - the sick memes that you just inserted back into the public consciousness on behalf of a politician who cannot seem to do enough to ensure that my children integrate those thoughts, that they too suffer as their parents did.

I want to apologize for my skin.  For being male.  But I can't.

You see, my children are "white", too, whatever that word even means to them. Not much, really, unless you and I make sure that they carry the burden of guilt you wish to gift them.

One of my children is male.  He is a boy.  

I regret that at twelve he has already picked up some of the guilt that your generation and my generation were so eager to accept, so eager to share.  To inflict on one another.

So you see, I cannot apologize for myself because if I did I would have to apologize for my children as well.

And they are still innocent.  Do you see?

I do not support your candidate because I disagree with her qualifications to lead my children's path to adulthood.  Not because I want my girls to have a Woman or my boy to have a Man as president - because I want them not to have to think along those lines, but to think about whether the person is good at their job, and I can't see your candidate being as good at the job as the one I support.

I do not support my candidate because I want my children to grow to adulthood with a leader who matches their skin, nor to see how gracious Daddy is in supporting one whose skin does not match theirs.  I want them to not understand that this is even an issue that Mommies and Daddies think about.  

And I don't think about these things, except for the boy inside me that was excited when you, Ms. Ferraro, ran for Vice President.  That boy lived in a world defined by race and gender differences.  He wanted you to win - to break down the barriers of biology.  That boy would be happy to have anyone win who wasn't a biological match for all his predecessors.

But that boy is grown up now.  The man that boy became knows that it is more important to elect qualified - even, when we can, great - leaders than it is to elect leaders because we want them to break barriers that have already dissolved all on their own.

You helped begin the dissolution of those barriers - can't you see that you won?  They are gone!  Margaret Thatcher, Nelson Mandela and many others attest to that already, and so long as you and your candidate don't succeed in destroying Senator Obama and with him the Democratic party, another proof will be at hand that biology is off the table in choosing the leadership of our species.  The leadership of our children.

Please, Ms. Ferraro.  Not only do I think you should publicly renounce your own words - words that are doing more to perpetuate the sick thoughts you stood against many years ago than anything your opponents of that day could hope for - but I ask that you repeal your support for Senator Clinton.   You are both feeding the dragon you once sought to slay, and it will come out of its cave and damage my children if you don't stop.

Best Regards,

Chris Blask


Donate!
by chrisblask on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:46:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry, I cannot hear over the dogwhistle.. (2.00 / 1)

You don't think that sexism has been an issue?

I didn't say that she lost because of sexism. I didn't say that supporting her or not was a measure of sexism. I said that it had been a prominent dynamic.

If that's a firewall to all Obama supporters, which I hardly think is the case, then we're in worse trouble than I thought.


by Natasha Chart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:56:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry, I cannot hear over the dogwhistle.. (none / 0)

I think he's taking issue with the classification as a "prominent dynamic." I think we can all agree it was an issue, we've seen plenty of examples in the media.

But your classification suggests that it was a big force. A lot of Clinton supporters here talk about sexism and say "She didn't lose because of it, but..." like you just did. And yet all this talk of sexism near the end of the campaign seems to suggest you do believe that.

In my personal opinion sexism was an issue, not a force. Meaning that is was there, it influenced votes, but it was cancelled out by a much larger force. I personally think there are many more older women out there who voted for her because they wanted to live to see a woman president than people who voted for Obama because he wasn't a woman.

I think to get to the place she was, she had to face many obstacles unique to a woman. But I think if she was a man, she would be in the exact same place she is today. You may think if she was a man, she would have edged out Obama. I don't. And many of us Obama supporters feel like a lot of Clinton supporters are belittling our candidate's accomplishment and undermining his nomination by suggesting otherwise.

I have no problem addressing sexism. It exists in our society. But I think there are many more important women's issues like equal pay, abuse, etc. than stupid comments like "the claws are coming out" and stuff about kitchens and iron my shirt and other stupid comments.

I just think the best way to address sexism in our society now is to take it out of a Hillary Clinton context.


democracy!
by BlueGAinDC on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Got to be kidding (2.00 / 2)

I've been talking about sexism, as have many other feminists, throughout this campaign. And if you'd read what I was arguing, it's that because it has been important and prominent to many people who are both angry and important voting constituencies, that any VP pick needs to be sensitive to that.

And I don't even think that VP pick needs to be a woman. I haven't suggested, if you'll observe, a single name.

Your disinterest in, or unawareness of, a great deal of blatant sexism during this election, doesn't mean it didn't matter to others. We still live in a world where this guy gets to go on the TV and say crap like this:

... On The O'Reilly Factor, Marc Rudov said men should boycott the Sex and the City movie and would not see it because "paying to hear women whine is as stupid as paying for cobwebs, because you can get them both at home for free." When Bill O'Reilly asked Margaret Hoover whether she believed "that most American women are as shallow as" the four main characters in the movie, Rudov interrupted: "I do." ...

What does that, for example, have to do with Obama? Nothing directly. But he's going to have to go into the general election with an eye towards winning the votes of already angry female constituencies. He has to operate within the environment created thereby and can't pretend like none of this happened.

Attacking or disagreeing with Hillary Clinton's policies is just that. Sexist attacks on her as a woman are attacks on all women. And I don't know if she would have won if she were a man, there's no way of knowing such a thing. They were both strong candidates as I clearly stated above.

But you have the consolation of having won, while her supporters' only possible consolation is having their issues addressed.


by Natasha Chart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:06:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Got to be kidding (none / 0)

I would like to believe the issues of all these isms are everyone's issues.  

They are certainly the issues of anyone who even vaguely believes in Progressiveness(ism).

At the end of this eight-year term my son will be 21, my daughters 16 and 14.  Sexism in all its forms I hope will be more dead than it is now, but by my 43 year old perspective it is vastly more dead than it has been in my life already (let's talk sexism circa 1970 when my Mom went back for her Master's degree...).  

Eight years of Democratic presidency under either of these folks - against the backdrop of a GOP that will recreate itself in a Modern context (you think a GOP woman in 2016 will vote for barefoot-n-pregantism?) - should imho go a long way to wiping out the remains of this ism.

-best

-chris


Donate!
by chrisblask on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Got to be kidding (none / 0)

Who gives a flying f*** what Bill O says? I never watch him and flagging every dumbass sexist crap on that show imputes it far too much power than it really has.  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:37:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Got to be kidding (none / 0)

First of all, I wasn't specifically addressing you with my comment. Part of it was addressing your statement, part of it was addressing others with similar feelings here, and part of it was my own comment on who should or should not be VP, as you offered yours.

I don't have a problem with talking about sexism. And you may have been talking about it throughout the campaign, but most of the talk has sprung up now (at least in regard to how it effected Hillary's bid).

I never said you did suggest Hillary. But you talked about Webb, so I thought I'd say another person I thought would not be a good choice.

And where did I say I did not recognize sexism during this election. I think there was plenty of it, but I think most of it just made the media look bad. It was petty, stupid statements like the one you quoted.

But honestly, there have been sexist and racist remarks made this whole time and while they may have exposed the idiots who made the comments, what the hell else did they do? Did all the Dems who were watching O'Reilly that night decide not to vote for Clinton? When sexist comments were made after Hillary's emotional moment before NH, the was a huge backlash, which I think most would agree helped Clinton to some extent at the time.

But what gets me is this "angry female constituency." Why the hell are they angry? I mean, they certainly should be angry at the commentators and the media that gave them a forum. But at Obama? I'm sorry, but please don't tell me your one of the one's who buys that Obama is sexist. The claws comment, the likeable enough comment, sweetie... none of that was sexist. Sure, some of them came out wrong. But nothing Obama has said should give anyone the idea that he looks down upon women.

And in regards to your last statement, I don't understand why Clinton's issues are women's issues. Clinton never made women's issues a bigger part of her campaign than Obama. Yet somehow, Clinton is the champion of women's issues and her losing means a victory for sexism. It's that I just don't get.

Honestly, I still don't understand the connection between this election and sexism. This election showed certain people to be sexist. Fine. But it was Hillary Clinton that kept talking about gender. She injected it into the campaign. So if her campaign was tied to women across America, then she needs to take responsibility. She needs to be the one to tell her supporters that her loss was her own and not a loss for women as a group. She needs to be the one to remind everyone that Obama will be strong on women's rights and choice. If Obama finds himself with a problem amongst women, he isn't to blame. And neither is the media. It makes no sense for women to vote for McCain over Obama because the media was sexist. Its Hillary who tied her campaign to women, and she needs to remind everyone that she lost for good reason, not because she was treated unfairly as a women and had the nomination "hijacked" from her.


democracy!
by BlueGAinDC on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:50:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Got to be kidding (none / 0)

Oh and the stuff in regard to Clinton not being a good choice for VP I said in a different comment, sorry, I got confused.


democracy!
by BlueGAinDC on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:57:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry, I cannot hear over the dogwhistle.. (none / 0)

I guess we just have to disagree. Sexism was by no means a prominent dynamic in this campaign, if you mean a major, influential dynamic.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:36:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry, I cannot hear over the dogwhistle.. (none / 0)

I don't believe it played a huge role in who to vote for, but it was out there on the MSM, warts and all.

we should condemn it.  I do not blame Obama or his campaign.  Who I do blame is the MSM which was unhinged with their comments.


by colebiancardi on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:39:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry, I cannot hear over the dogwhistle.. (none / 0)

I condemn it as I have for 35 years.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry, I cannot hear over the dogwhistle.. (none / 0)

Hi Natasha,

No, I don't think racism or sexism were significant issues.

Just to save my fingers I'll blockquote a comment from a day or two ago.

I must be blind (2.00 / 1)

Because I have seen little sexism and little racism in this entire campaign.

I have seen:

a lot of discussion of sexism and racism
a lot of accusations of sexism and racism
a lot of discussion of gender and race

But very little of anything that I would point to and say "that is sexist/racist!".

I lost my rec/rate because I got sick of the whole debate and TRed everyone who accused anyone of either.

Not being either female or non-white maybe I am not atuned to it when it happens.  Maybe I'm not over-sensitive to anything that can be read as sexist or racist so I don't jump to those conclusions.  Maybe I'm just blind.

It's not that I have never thought about these things.  I've argued against both of these things extensively in public and private - I have been publicly attacked by actual unapologetic racists (two White Supremacist leaders and their cronies) and had my physical address tracked down by them.  

I've asked these questions about this primary race of women and black folks and gotten both "yes" and "no" answers in both cases to both charges. Both candidates have women and black folks supporting them fervently at all levels of their campaigns.  I would think that the women supporting Obama and the black folks supporting Clinton would flee en-masse if these accusations were overtly true.

My biases I have stated many many times - I have liked Obama for years, I have not been fond of Clinton for longer.  Still, I had not expected Obama to be viable and he has proven me wrong, I had expected Clinton to be viable and had expected to vote for her.

Maybe being raised by non-sexist non-racist parents I don't have the memes in my head to help me recognize the subtler forms of sexism and racism that incense others.  I don't know why I don't see what others do, unless my supposition that the hints of both have been blown completely out of proportion is correct.

Frankly, imho I think that if both these candidates were the same (white men, black women, black men, white women) the results would be the same as they are today.  If you were race and gender-blind and just looked at the campaign strategies that were executed (I understand, she was First Lady and he is in fact half black, so it's not entirely possible to extract), I think that the current state of race would not be at all surprising.

But maybe I am just blind.

So, while I think the perception of a "gender card" being played against Sen. Clinton, and the perception of a "race card" being played against Sen. Obama was a factor, I do not see anything that shouts out to me that Racism or Sexism themselves were actual factors.

I mean, they each got more votes than the last ninety-seven presidents combined.  Not a lot of folks sitting home cause they would not vote for a woman or a black guy.  Other than an occasional Ferraro or Wright, there seems to have been remarkably little of anything solid that could be pointed to for either ism.  Given the nature of both of their candidacies, the lack of those topics has in my view been encouraging.

But, again, maybe I am just blind.

Thanks for your calm reply to my vitriol... ;-)

-best

-chris


Donate!
by chrisblask on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:21:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

on your potted feminism (2.00 / 1)

Whatever you say.  Personally, I'm more moved by feminists like Katha Pollitt, Barbara Ehrenreich, Zillah Eisenstein, and Linda Gordon who have endorsed Obama because peace and the environment are feminist issues.

We urgently need a Presidential candidate, who understands that "pre-emptive" attacks on other countries and the reliance on military force have diminished rather then strengthened our national security. And we urgently need a Presidential candidate whose first priority is to address domestic needs. We do not believe that Senator Hillary Clinton is that candidate

We base our judgment on her seven-year record as the Senator from New York. As a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, she has carefully identified herself as a supporter of a strong, enlarged and proactive military. In 2002, she voted to authorize the "use of force" against Iraq, while voting against an amendment that would have mandated further diplomacy. In subsequent years, she expressed enthusiastic support for the war effort, objected to fixed timelines for the withdrawal of U.S troops and until last summer voted for the "unconditional funding" of the war.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/NYfem inistsforpeace/

And I'm moved the late, great Molly Ivins who wrote before her untimely death:

like to make it clear to the people who run the Democratic Party that I will not support Hillary Clinton for president.

Enough. Enough triangulation, calculation and equivocation. Enough clever straddling, enough not offending anyone This is not a Dick Morris election. Sen. Clinton is apparently incapable of taking a clear stand on the war in Iraq, and that alone is enough to disqualify her. Her failure to speak out on Terri Schiavo, not to mention that gross pandering on flag-burning, are just contemptible little dodges.
http://www.freepress.org/columns/display /1/2006/1304


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:46:26 PM EST

Re: on your potted feminism (2.00 / 2)

You don't fight sexism by voting for a woman because she's a woman.

You don't fight sexism by supporting a candidate because she has been the subject of sexist attacks.

That's not what feminism is about -- not according to this lifelong feminist and millions of other women and feminists.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:47:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm talking about the way she's been attacked (none / 0)

... and how many of her supporters, and some observers who weren't supporters, feel that a large number of those attacks were gender-based instead of issue-based. I wasn't accusing people who didn't support her of being anti-feminist, or even saying that the proper feminist thing is or was to support her.

You're reading things I didn't write, don't put that on me.


by Natasha Chart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:54:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm talking about the way she's been attacked (none / 0)

Come on!

You post information about how many women are killed by men and then you're comparing that to how Clinton was treated?  

Personally, I'd like a candidate who was against the war, who was politically courageous when it counted, when I was marching in the streets to try to stop the war.  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm talking about the way she's been attacked (2.00 / 1)

When you live in a sexist society, which this is, the perpetuation of social themes that put women down feed into a myriad of other problems. Women are talked about in violent ways, especially when they're a 'threat' to people, and it translates into real violence against other women.

When it's perfectly acceptable for theoretically respectable media figures and outlets to engage in violent, denigrating talk against even someone as prominent, establishment and powerful as Clinton, it means larger things than whether she won or lost the primary. In a way, the primary is irrelevant to it.

I believe one of the main opening statements in this post was that I see opposing her war vote as a perfectly reasonable argument for not having supported her. I'm not even contesting that point. Why don't you discuss the issue at hand? How do you think the general election campaign can be corrected for all of this?


by Natasha Chart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:12:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm talking about the way she's been attacked (none / 0)

You think that men don't live under a threat of violence? Please. You think violence isn't considered when men are considered a threat to other men?

If you want to compete on the same playing field with men, suck it up.


John McCain Hates Poor People
by pneuma on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:00:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm talking about the way she's been attacked (none / 0)

I think in order to understand how sexism impacted this nomination race it's important to divide the sexist attacks in to two camps.

The first are sexist attacks on Senator Clinton for doing or saying something that a male candidate in the same position doing the same thing would not have been attacked for.  

The second camp are attacks on Senator Clinton for doing or saying something that a male candidate would have also been attacked for, but in a sexist way, or using sexist language.  

Attacks and comments in the first camp appear to be a net negative for the candidate in my opinion.  It's clearly unfair for a female candidate to have to fight off attacks in this camp that no male candidate would ever have to face.

In the second camp however I'm not so sure on balance it's a negative for the candidate.  In the second case the criticism is deserved, but the manner it's couched is offensive due to its sexist nature.  Does the sexist language mean that men internalized and accept the criticism of the candidate more?  I don't know but it's certainly possible.  More important I think however is that most women will complete disregard the criticism because it's couched in sexist language, no mater how valid the underlying criticism may be.  It also allows the candidate to counter the attack by pointing out the sexism, and then pivoting to sexism in general.

Now I haven't done any analysis to see how many of the sexist attacks fell in to each camp, but my gut feeling is that more fell in to the second camp then the first.  That could just be because attacks in the second camp are easier to identify and are more loudly denounced, but it's all I have to go on at this point.

Anyway, my point would be I can understand why a lot of people can say sexism existed and was a factor in the primary campaign, but it was not a major factor.  I can also understand how a lot of people can be very angry with the level of sexism that was displayed in the campaign.  It's important to acknowledge their legitimate anger at the sexism that occurred, while at the same time not allowing the idea to set in that Clinton lost because of sexism.  I just don't see the evidence to support that sexism was the dominant reason she lost, not when there are obvious strategic blunders that contributed to Obama's pledged delegate lead and ended up deciding the race.

P.S. Natasha, I'm not suggesting that you hold the view that Clinton lost because of sexism, I'm just trying to suggest it's important for all of us to make this distinction as clear as possible.


by fangthang on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:06:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, I'm a white guy so feel free to dismiss me, but I generally am pretty forward-thinking and try to fight sexism where I see it, but it still seems to me that much of the sexism cited in this diary is overblown, and that comments are having sexism read into them when none originally existed.

The "violent imagery", for example, seems like a stretch.  Yes, there were some comments that used violence as a metaphor, but that's often the case with anyone losing a race and overstaying their welcome.  Everyone talks about "putting X out of their misery", and there's no sexism in that whatsoever.  

The Elaine Hopkins article, for example, is pretty questionable.  Clinton arguably has to deal with more appearance-based commentary than Obama, but Obama had to deal with the biggest fashion-based topic of the campaign -- his flag pin!

She's got a negative reputation for "charged with being willing to do or say anything to win" not because she's a woman, but because she appears to be willing to do or say anything to win.  Just look at the mental gymnastics she had to go through regarding MI+FL.  It was baldly, clearly intellectually dishonest, a complete about-face from her earlier position, but she blithely argued her newly-found populist screed without a hint of self-awareness.  

Discounting her accomplishments?  She was the First Lady.  Unelected, unvetted, and she attemped to exercise a huge amount of power.  It had nothing to do with her being a woman, but that turned me off from the start -- who is this person who wants to reform our health care system, who only got into a position of power by virtue of being married to Bill Clinton?  Again -- my initial negative reaction had nothing to do with her being a woman, and entirely to do with her overstepping her bounds a First Spouse.  

Then after that, she won in NY (where she wasn't even a resident, IIRC) running against an incredibly weak opponent.  It wasn't a difficult race, and she effectively backed into the seat.

And finally, regarding the tears in NH that are so often cited as an example of a sexist response by the media.  Just imagine, for a moment, that Obama would have had the same tear-filled moment.  It would have ended his candidacy on the spot.  As a man, you simply cannot show that kind of weakness or vulnerability.  So yes, there was some sexism in that example -- but it was anti-male much more than it was anti-female.


by ChrisKaty on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:49:08 PM EST

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

Clinton arguably has to deal with more appearance-based commentary than Obama, but Obama had to deal with the biggest fashion-based topic of the campaign -- his flag pin!

meh....Clinton had to deal with her friggin' cleavage when she wore a modest tank under a suit jacket.  Oh, what does that say about her seriousness if her tits are hanging out, said the MSM.

I didn't hear any of the MSM talking about the male candidates and their penises and how the size of them affected their "seriousness" about running in a campaign.

think I am kidding?

http://mediamatters.org/items/2007080100 03

23 minutes and 42 seconds devoted to Hillary's breasts.


by colebiancardi on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

There's bs on all the candidates. What the hell is the point of making lists to prove who is the greater victim?

I switched from Clinton to Obama and none of this crap mattered to me.  T

his is just another version of insulting Obama supporters for supporting Obama.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:56:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

who is making out anyone to be a "victim", greater or not?

facts are stubborn things.  I think the diarist was not arguing, nor am I, that sexism sunk Hillary's campaign.  But to deny this, when there are so many sites out there that have gone over this, such as media matters, is absurd.

perhaps sexism is in the eye of the beholder - I don't know.

But I noticed it.  And it isn't just Hillary - Pelosi gets slammed as well.

shakesister had a pretty good sexism watch, some I agree with and some I don't.  But they got a shitload of 'em out there.

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2 008/02/hillary-sexism-watch.html

they actually go up to 104, but it isn't all linked.


by colebiancardi on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

Of course women face this crap. But it wasn't a dominant part of the campaign. I heard a lot more about NAFTA, health care and Iraq than about Hillary's clothes and hair.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

I wasn't talking about the debates.  I was referring to the MSM.

please go to media matters and look at what they have compiled.


by colebiancardi on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

think of it this way

drip
drip
drip

that is how it was doled out in the MSM

and those drips add up


by colebiancardi on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:42:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

There's bs on all the candidates. What the hell is the point of making lists to prove who is the greater victim?

I switched from Clinton to Obama and none of this crap mattered to me.  

This is just another version of insulting Obama supporters for supporting Obama.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:56:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Veepness Stakes: Please no Webb, DINOs (none / 0)

That one really pissed me off.  And wasn't it Ruth Marcus who wrote the abominable piece?  What the hell was she thinking?  I do think Clinton's appearance was over-scrutinized -- pantsu