These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum Yet...

A number of prominent bloggers here at MyDD seem to have been taken with the idea that, instead of a fair and forthright nominating contest in which a winner emerged based on the party's rules governing delegate allocation, the 2008 Democratic Primary was a coup d'etat of epic political proportions carefully orchestrated by a vast conspiracy to deny one candidate's rightful claim to the nomination.

Let me be clear, the Democratic Party has chosen to nominate my second choice for the Presidency. This sucks. And there are no two ways about this. But I also want to make it clear that I will support my party's nominee 100% of the time with as much energy as I possibly have. And furthermore, I will not sit by while a number of disgruntled individuals use misinformation and deceit to engage in a shameless episode of revisionist history.

We've already had eight long years of revisionist history. Isn't that enough?

For these bloggers, a vast conspiracy of anti-Clinton media, party leaders and committees determined to "disenfranchise" the voters, and the personal intervention of the meddling kids on Senator Obama's campaign, have all conspired to "steal" this nomination. While I agree with DNC Chairman Dean that the media has acted absolutely disgracefully in this primary contest, I have a bone to pick about the other two contentions.

The truth is that Senator Clinton has, since 2005, held a 13 to 8 plurality of supporters on the Rules & Bylaws Committee, with 7 uncommitted members. (Source: New York Times) In fact, two top-level advisors to Senator Clinton's Presidential campaign and one of her national co-chairs actually had seats on the committee (Tina Flourney, Harold Ickes, and Don Fowler).If there was one place - one forum or semi-public adjudication - in which Senator Clinton had an opportunity to present her case regarding the Florida and Michigan delegation in front of a fair and impartial panel (with a plurality of her supporters, in fact) the Rules & Bylaws Committee meeting was that place.

It amazes me that there are bloggers on this site (front page bloggers, no less) who are either unable or unwilling to reconcile the plurality of Clinton supporters on the Rules & Bylaws Committee with this mildly entertaining theory that centers around a hyper-misogynistic election rigging conspiracy orchestrated by Howard Dean and Donna Brazille to deny Clinton the nomination in some secret smoke-filled room.

If Senator Obama was actually going to try to "steal" an election through a secret committee vote - he was going to have to hold in line each of his 8 supporters and convince every single one of the seven remaining uncommitted committee members just to achieve a narrow 15 - 13 victory (Jerome proposes that this would have been a 15-14 vote, but this is slightly difficult to for me to imagine, considering that there were only 28 voting members on the committee). Worse, Senator Obama would have been forced to reconcile to an angry public (including me) his capricious push for a highly partisan vote at a secret committee hearing with the rhetoric calling for party unity that his campaign has recently espoused. That, to me, would have been a difficult reconciliation.

The truth is that Senator Obama had the votes for 50-50 split of the Michigan delegation ( Source: Chuck Todd, MSNBC). His campaign could have made it a 15 - 13 vote. But after hours and hours of negotiations it became apparent that there were 4-5 Clinton partisans on the committee who were willing to put aside their allegiances and support the best available compromise between the positions of the two opposing campaigns. Sen. Obama threw his weight behind the MDP proposal because it had a better chance of attracting Clinton supporters on the committee. It wasn't about winning the vote - or "stealing" a measly four delegates from Senator Clinton (Come on people, some of the comments on this site are getting absolutely outrageous!) - it was about winning the vote with a solid margin, and showing a unified front for our party.

According to the conspiracy theories of a few prominent bloggers on MyDD, Senator Obama orchestrated the attempt to halve the delegations of Florida and Michigan and strip four delegates from Senator Clinton out of sheer spite for - and disenfranchisement of - the voters of those two states and out of a blatant violation of party rules. The truth is that Harold Ickes, Tina Flourney, and a unanimous Rules and Bylaws Committee voted to strip all of the delegates from these two states as a means of enforcing party rules which are which are designed to prevent a chaotic primary calendar. Seating delegations from the two states with any voting power whatsoever - especially after going forward with beauty contest elections in which neither candidate campaigned and one wasn't even on the ballot - was a reasonable effort to respect the input of the voters in Florida and Michigan without engaging in a partisan hatchet-job to erase a delegate lead which was established in fair contests in which both candidates participated.

The truth is that the halving of state delegations was a plan supported by the Florida Democratic Party as a means of enforcing - and not bending - party rules. The plan to use the number of uncommitted votes in addition to exit polling data in order to create a 69 - 59 split in the Michigan delegation was agreed upon by Senator Levin (uncommitted) and supported and proposed by the Michigan Democratic Party as a means of creating a fair compromise between the positions of the two campaigns. When Don Fowler - a prominent Clinton supporter and not some Chicago-style election-rigging expert (Again...what is with these ridiculous comments on this site?) - threw his weight behind the Michigan plan - Ickes and Flourney knew that it was over. It wasn't a 15 - 14 back-room decision, Jerome - in fact, the vote wasn't even close.

These prominent bloggers demand to "Count Every Vote!" - yet at the same time, the Clinton "popular vote lead" - which is cited in conspiracy theories to justify the notion of a "stolen" nomination - excludes the votes and participation of people in no less than fourteen party caucuses where activists who are the heart and soul of the Democratic Party chose to express their Presidential preference. I agree wholeheartedly with Senator Clinton that every vote should count in the primary, and I agree with Senator Levin that the vice-grip on the nominating process held by Iowa and New Hampshire needs to go. But if we're going to count and respect every voter's input, let's do so in an intellectually honest manner.

A number of prominent bloggers on this site have led themselves to believe that it was Senator Obama who, by removing his name from the Michigan ballot, disenfranchised voters in the State of Michigan. As this particular conspiracy theory goes, the campaigns of Senators Obama and Edwards conspired together to take their names off the Michigan ballot.

These particular bloggers seem more willing to engage in the Chewbacca Defense than any reasonable discussion of fact. "THIS is Senator Obama. Senator Obama is a wookie. Wookies are from Chicago. Chicago is the Windy City. Wind blows away ballots. Ballots were cast for Senator Clinton. Therefore, the election was rigged." Game. Set. Match.

While it is true that Senators Edwards and Obama both filed paperwork to remove themselves from the Michigan ballot on Tuesday, October 9th, 2007...we would have to include Senator Biden's campaign in that vast conspiracy as well! And New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson withdrew his name from the Michigan ballot in a letter written on Monday, October 8th! (Source: Chicago Tribune) While Senator Clinton decided to remain on the Michigan ballot, she was careful to assure voters in Iowa and New Hampshire that " this election they're having is not going to count for anything," during an interview on New Hampshire Public Radio's call-in program, "The Exchange."

In the end, the utter beauty contest that was the Michigan primary ultimately did not "count for anything". Fortunately, however the clearer heads on the Rules and Bylaws Committee - one whose make-up was downright favorable to Senator Clinton in terms of relative support - acknowledged the obvious need to respect the input of the voices of Florida and Michigan without arbitrarily throwing the delegate count toward one candidate or another...and while maintaining an enforcement of party rules.

I'm fine with the biased opinion...in fact, for a while, I preferred it. It was nice for a while that I could read the writing of a number of prominent bloggers on this site and finally feel comfortable that a progressive could support Sen. Clinton and not be attacked constantly. But I'm sick of the misinformation, especially when it seems to be both deliberate and deceitful. These myths have already been rebuked, and, in the fairest forum yet.



Display:


Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 50)

I tried to source everything...if you disagree with any of the assertions in the diary and would like a source, let me know and I'll see what I can do.
by NYMinute on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:01:03 AM EST

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 5)

just to debunk one of you bunks, BHO had no votes in Mi due to his own political manuverings. Uncommited by law and custom should have remained so until the convention. No way they should have been handed to him.

But do go on with the rest of your opinion piece (BTW opinion does not debunk anything), we can see you have worked yourself into a lather about how other people feel...


by zerosumgame on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:07:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 16)

Your first point is a half-truth. Senator Obama had no votes in Michigan. But neither candidate had any voting delegates in Michigan. It was a beauty contest that Senator Clinton herself admitted would count for nothing. The RBC awarded delegates to BOTH Obama and Clinton (in accordance with the wishes of the Michigan Democratic Party based on exit polling and other data) because it felt that Michigan deserved to have voting delegates, without throwing the contest to one candidate or another. As for your second point about opinion not debunking anything...I'm not really sure how to respond to that...
by NYMinute on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:15:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 17)

Remember that states were tasked with choosing their own electors. They chose by either:

 * Open Caucuses (Democrats, Republicans and Independents allowed)
    * Modified Caucuses (Democrats and Independents)
    * Closed Caucuses (Democrats only)
    * Open Primaries (Democrats, Republicans, and Independents allowed)
    * Modified Primaries (Democrats and Independents)
    * Closed Primaries (Democrats only)
    * Mixture of open caucuses and open primaries (i.e. Texas)
    * Mail-in ballot primary
    * Weekend primary
    * Weekday primary

The states are not on equal footing, hence any effort to tally the the popular vote is not an apple-to-apple comparison.

Just gonna keep posting it until somebody actually reads it.


We have nothing to fear but fear itself. And clowns.
by haremoor on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:17:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 7)

And that's the best argument ever to reform our nominating process. We're done for this year, but maybe we can avoid problems like Michigan and Florida in the future. The Democratic system is byzantine, at best. All states must be on an equal footing, and it's definitely time for some states other than Iowa and NH to go first.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:35:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 1)

Denny Crane, I agree wholeheartedly.


by NYMinute on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:46:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 2)

As an Iowan, I agree wholeheartedly that other states should have a chance to go first.


by GreenHills on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:20:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 2)

Ditto

Hell, I love the chance to see all the candidates about 50 times each when they come to my home town, but damn its unfair and brings up really crappy efforts to gain votes in Iowa, like promoting ethanol.  


Vote Change in '08!
by iowa dem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:51:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 2)

You're correct, of course.  But there isn't really anything to stop this from happening again - besides the incredible egg on the faces of the MI and FL Democratic parties.

The reason is that no matter which process the Democrats ultimately decide upon - a rotating regional primary, a rotating piecemeal system like we have now, a national primary day in February, etc. - requires that states get on board with this and agree to hold their primaries at the time designated by the DNC.  States can always decide that this isn't in their best interest.  Or can be the subject of Republican tomfoolery.  In which case, there should be penalties.  Then, you have to enforce those penalties.  Then, there's always the chance that someone will feel disenchfranchised.  Then, this could all happen again.


by the mollusk on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:01:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 3)

True.  No system is foolproof or tamper-proof.  But we can correct our system so that it's easier to understand and easier for people to get involved with. We can close our primaries so that Republicans have limited ability to influence our process.  We can have primaries instead of caucuses, so that people who can't get there for that 2 or 3 hours block of time have other opportunities to vote. There are many things we can do to limit the the damage and make things easier for people.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:09:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 4)

I mostly agree.  I think caucuses still have a place, though.  It is probably one of the only forums in which on-the-ground organizing and persuading count as much or more than big-dollar 30-second advertising.  It is probably the only mechanism by which an insurgent candidate can get a foot-hold.  True, this will always favor the candidate who has the vote of the young, unattached, or extremely politically active people.  But I would argue that that's a decent description of most insurgent candidates.

But diminishing the role of caucuses may be beneficial overall.  And getting rid of the superdelegates is essential, in my opinion.


by the mollusk on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:15:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 2)

Is it just me, or are two partisans having a substantive discussion here?  Who knew that was possible?  :-)


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:25:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 2)

quick, call the polemicists!!


by the mollusk on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:26:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 1)

Funny thing is, I think the SDs have not been the problem.  I think there are scenarios under which we would be happy to have SDs as a backstop.  

The thing I think needs to change is that it needs to be more clearly articulated that the SDs are not expected to decide between two reasonable candidates.  In these cases, the pledged delegates are the key metric and it is why the SDs are also breaking for Obama.

Don't know if this articulation is possible, but I think if it is, it is better than not having SDs.

Here's a scenario to consider.  What if Obama loses PA by 15 - 20% and then loses NC close and IN by a wide margin, and loses OR.  Now, you have a situation where Obama is still in the PD lead, but you really have to question whether the January and February primaries reflect the view of the party.

No scandal there, but I would still like the SDs to be able to intervene when the case is extreme.


by sasatlanta on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 1)

Yes, I can see the argument for the SD's, particularly if you are going to keep the caucuses in place, as I suggested above.  But your scenario makes a few assumptions.  One of which is that primary results will be reflective of general election results.  This may not be the case.  Also, are the superdelegates really that much better at deciding who is electable than the electorate themselves?

My understanding of the superdelegates was that they were originally created to specifically stifle insurgent candidates.  Maybe in the end that is better for the party, but who knows.

The problem I see with the superdelegates is that they add a bit of ambiguity to the process.  For example, it seems at this point that Obama will be the nominee because he has more pledged delegates.  But Clinton, if she was able to win the popular vote, would have a legitimate argument that the superdelegates should put her over the top because she is apparently more electable.  So then there is an open question of what the race is really about.  Is it about winning pledged delegates or is it about making yourself more electable?

ugh, head spinning.  back to something simpler, like work.


by the mollusk on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:48:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

But do we really need 800 super delegates?  That just seems excessive.  I would suggest limiting it to sitting members of congress, state governors, former presidents and vice-presidents, former speakers of the house and former senate majority leaders.  Even with huge majorities in congress that would be around 350 super delegates.  Why do we need more then that?


by fangthang on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:56:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 1)

I don't know the right number of SDs but I would suggest, but one concern that I have with your proposal is that by having almost everyone up for re-election in their home districts or states, these folks get stuck balancing the decision they feel is best or fairest with their own survival in the next election.

Same balance for folks from the Democrat party, but different balancing.  These folks have to balance inside party politics with doing what is best.

One thing the large number does allow is for protection of those who probably need to stay on the fence.  For example, right now, there are probably a bunch of SDs from elected positions who want to endorse Obama but are afraid of backlash from Clinton supporters.  Same would be true of folks who want to endorse Clinton if the situation were reversed.


by sasatlanta on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 1)

I could just rec you all day long for that name...


Donate!
by chrisblask on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:00:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 1)

Yep, I love me some Denny.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:45:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

What good are new rules if we have some among us not willing to honor rules if they aren't able to win within them?


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:12:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

I feel increasingly despondent about the way that this year's primary season has demonstrated that smoke filled rooms might just be the best option.  I love democracy, but I can't handle the permanent campaign.  


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:04:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

that also weakens the validity of tallying delegates.  Why should a caucus state, with much much lower turnout get comparable numbers of delegates to a large primary state with heavy turnout?  

You're not really making a good argument here against the popular vote metric, because it applies just as well to the delegate metric.


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:32:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked (2.00 / 3)

Delegates are awarded to state parties.  The state parties may choose whatever system they want to apportion those delegates.  Turnout has nothing to do with it.  


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked (none / 0)

not true in reality.  Parties award delegate based on the caucus or primary results.  Turnout, therefore, matters greatly.  To argue otherwise is just being disingenuous.


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No the state parties apportion delegates... (2.00 / 1)

however they want.  They've choosen in great majority to use primaries and caucuses.  But since this was a flawed primary, Michigan decided to amend their rules and award delegates delegates in this fashion.  The people of the state are not given the delegates.  The state parties are given the delegates.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:37:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No the state parties apportion delegates... (none / 0)

I wasn't actually talking about Michigan--I'm talking in general.  It's basic logic, really.  States award delegates on the basis of voting proportions.  Turnout affects those proportions, but more importantly, turnout affects the delegate per popular vote ratio.  So, by the same token that the popular vote is a flawed metric, ultimately so is the delegate count.

Something will ultimately need to be done before the next primary.  I agree largely with not "changing the rules" midelection.  But, I'm somewhat sympathetic to the popular vote argument by HRC, and any reasonable person would be if they aren't a staunch Obama supporter.

What's amazing here is that I think almost everyone on this site would be arguing exactly the opposite side if the positions of Obama and Clinton were reversed.  They're all good arguments to be made.  The attempts on both sides to just belittle each other's positions is what's dishonest and childish.


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:25:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If she had won the popular vote without Michigan.. (none / 0)

it would have been persuasive.  But I don't accept a contest without one of the candidates on the ballot as legitimate adn thus I don't find those arguments persuasive.  But I will agree with your last paragraph to the extent that I don't think every single person would switch arguments, but most would.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:12:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Belittling?? That's you (none / 0)

Wow, a pretty good thread and then you're calling out folks for being childish when you were the one that first started by calling the other post "silly"

Such intellectual rigor....


by Regenman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:49:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No the state parties apportion delegates... (none / 0)

I think there is logic in being sympathetic to the popular vote as a metric for SDs to look at.  No question, SDs are an open to persuade in any legal way, and popular vote arguments are one way to try to persuade.

However, I think staunch logic would also dictate that SDs be wary of using popular vote arguments because of the fact that if popular votes were really an appropriate metric, the campaigns would have been run differently by both.  Even just in the last few weeks, if Obama thought his nomination depended on winning the popular vote, he would have spent much more effort in campaigning in KY, WV, and PR to keep himself on top.

I think logical arguments dictate that the argument not only address the current facts, but also how the facts might have changed if the argument had been accepted at the proper time (and not after it's all over).  How many places has this applied in all these nomination discussions?


by sasatlanta on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:43:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Turnout doesn't matter ... (none / 0)

except indirectly.  The turnout from past elections is used to weight district delegate assignments within a state's delegate pool.  The delegate pool itself is based on the population of the state, with some biasing done against large states like California that would otherwise have disproportionate impact.


by edg1 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:31:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Turnout doesn't matter ... (2.00 / 1)

The turnout from past elections is used to weight district delegate assignments within a state's delegate pool
Yes, but GE turnouts, not primaries AFAIK.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:25:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

that also weakens the validity of tallying delegates. Why should a caucus state, with much much lower turnout get comparable numbers of delegates to a large primary state with heavy turnout?
I'll offer several reasons.
  • Because the rules specify that the states can choose any way they want to apportion their delegates as long as it's proportional representation. Whether we should change these rules in the future or not doesn't matter for now, because these were the rules the process was held under.
  • Caucuses are preferred over primaries by many smaller states because they are cheaper to run.
  • Caucuses favor a different sort of campaign than primaries. A candidate with less money, less name recognition, and fewer party-insider connections can defeat a more strongly-entrenched opponent if they have a more disciplined, organized campaign and stronger GOTV efforts. In the general election, it's not just money, name recognition, and connections that win--it's also running a tight ship, having strong message discipline, and doing well-organized GOTV.
I think the last item is the most important. At the very least, caucus states force the party-machine candidates to at least expend some effort very early in the game on developing organizational infrastructure, so they don't get unexpectedly smacked in the delegates by a Barack Obama or Ron Paul or Mike Huckabee. Even if the outsider candidate doesn't win--though in the Democrats' case this year, he did--it makes the eventual nominee stronger.
Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:33:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 1)

there were 4 names to pick on the ballot and uncommited. BHO wanterd to smooze IA and NH so he took his name of the ballot. He was not forced to, he was not asked to, he CHOOSE to. Once again your OPINION does not debunk anything, uncommited should have stayed uncommited until the convention as they always have before. would they probably have gone to him anyway? sure, but now the precedent is set that anyone who was not in a contest can demand any votes that they want to.


by zerosumgame on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:19:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 16)

Dear zerosumgame,

Michigan didn't count. Everyone knew it didn't count. Hillary stated it wouldn't count. It doesn't matter whose names were on the ballot, because it didn't count.

Had Obama decided he wanted his name printed on the ballot as "Baracky HappyPants," that would be just fine with me, because it didn't count. If all the candidates had urged their voters to do their own Operation Chaos and vote for Romney/Huckabee/McCain/whomever, that would also be just fine with me, because it didn't count.

That Clinton managed to actually net a few more delegates from an election that everyone knew didn't count is an impressive feat in and of itself.

Sincerely,
Me


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:23:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh yeah. (2.00 / 10)

If he were on the ballot as "Baracky Happypants," I would have moved to Michigan to vote for him, even if it didn't count.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:43:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Recc'd for "Baracky Happypants". (none / 0)

Somebody call Nickelodeon, we have a new hit show in the making!


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:11:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Until this weekend... (2.00 / 13)

... there were no Uncommitted delegates from MI.

There were no Clinton delegates from MI.

There were no delegates at all from MI. Claiming there were is a bit disingenuous.

Since there were no Uncommitted delegates, there is no way that any Uncommitted delegates were assigned to Obama. Since there were no Clinton delegates, there is no way that any were stolen from Hillary's campaign either.

And since everyone (Hillary, Obama, DNC, local news, and others) were telling the people of Michigan that the primary would not count, many people either voted in the Republican primary or did not vote at all, which is not what many of them would have done if the election counted.

Michigan recognized these facts. That is why they proposed a compromise solution, your opinion notwithstanding.

by Vancouverite on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:48:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 8)

All the candidates including Hillary CHOSE to sign the 4 state pledge. That pledge committed Clinton in writing to "not campaign and NOT PARTICIPATE". Look up participate in the dictionary. Leaving your name on the ballot constitutes participating by any definition of the word. FL did not permit the removal of names MI did. All the major candidates except Hillary lived up to there promise not to participate.

Hillary offered the lame excuse that it didn't matter because it wouldn't count anyway. Turns out that she was lying and planned on having her cake and eating it to. She would support disenfranchising MI & FL when it helped her and reverse her position when that would work in her favor.

Edwards and Obama tried to get there names put back on the ballot once they found out Hillary would be breaking her pledge. Now Hillary wants to be rewarded for cheating and has the audacity to call it a voters rights issue. Classy.


by hankg on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:49:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

not participating does not mean removing your name from the ballot.  That's a ridiculous argument.  Not participating means no campaigning.


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:11:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 5)

That's why the language specifically stated neither campaign nor participate right? Because campaigning and participating are the same thing.

:)

/snark


by Yalin on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:27:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

link?  I haven't heard this claim that the agreement said not to participate nor campaign.

If that's the case, I'll rethink my perspective.


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:01:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

Here you go.


by amitxjoshi on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

Here's the original PDF: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sectio ns/news/070831_Final_Pledge.pdf


by Yalin on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 3)

How does one participate in an election?  I would say the most basic way would be to be a viable candidate, thus on the ballot.  EVERY dem candidate realized this and Clinton just decided to ignore her signed pledge and keep her name on the ballot.  
According to Merriam Webster dictionary, participation is "2 a: to take part <always participates in class discussions> b: to have a part or share in something."
By any semblance of common sense, having ones name on a ballot counts as participation in an election.
Vote Change in '08!
by iowa dem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 2)

Whether an english or legal dictionary the meaning of participate is clear and consistent with that Mirriam Webster definition.

Having your name on the ballot would constitute taking part under any definition of the word. The dishonest and tortured logic used by Clinton surrogates boggles the mind. It's like claiming that Obama got 0 votes in MI and it's OK to leave out 4 caucus states when coming up with Clinton's bogus popular vote numbers.

It is to bad that the 13 Clinton supporters along with the rest of the rules committee (except the one Obama supporter who voted against the idiotic sanctions) did not just penalize MI & FL by cutting their votes in half. Why they would not want candidates to campaign and build organizations in these 2 states is beyond me. They created a situation where there was no solution that would not be to some degree arbitrary. If they had normal elections and the only issue was the penalty it would be a non-issue.  


by hankg on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:21:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.  Unless I see that the pledge required removal of a name from the ballot, then she was not wrong to leave her name on.

You can quote dictionaries until you're blue in the face, but the definition of "participate" doesn't, in my book, nor most others', imply that one must remove their name from a ballot.  It means they don't enter the state and campaign.  Once the name was on the ballot, she played a passive role in the process.  That's all it means not to participate.


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (1.50 / 2)

The agreement specified campaign or participate.  To keep one's name on the ballot is, by definition, to participate.

I guess the dictionaries in Jersey aren't any better than the calculators.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A source for removing names from MI ballot (none / 0)

Garry Shay, a Clinton supporter and member of the Democratic National Committee Rules Committee, said this on May 4, 2008 (link):

There's the fact that Hillary Clinton's name and the uncommitted slate was the only thing that was on the ballot in Michigan because the Democratic National Committee asked the other candidates to withdraw their names from the ballot. So, here you have the institution itself asking people to pull their names off the ballot.


by edg1 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:47:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A source for removing names from MI ballot (none / 0)

Well that makes pretty clear who honored the rules and who didn't now doesn't it?


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:53:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Indeed. n/t (none / 0)


by edg1 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:13:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

once again--you aren't participating in any meaningful discussion here.


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:02:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

You've not managed to rebut the idea that being on the ballot is participating.  All you've done is to stomp your feet at my presence.  It's not working.  Try holding your breath.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:12:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

Well if you understand english and know what the word participate means your idea has been rebuted. Giving the fact that is a fairly simple concept to understand there is not much more to be said.

If you think quoting the definition of the word from the dictionary as you don't seem to know what it means is "stomping your feet" well OK then we will have to agree to disagree.


by hankg on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:35:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

You contradicted yourself in just 2 sentences.  You say that I don't understand english and then attempt to discredit me for using the dictionary definition.  Pick one: do I not understand english, or does the dictionary back up what I am saying?

She participated by being on the ballot.  That's why the other candidates took their names off of the ballot.  They were honoring the agreement as it said they weren't to campaign or participate.  Why do you suppose the agreement specified more than just campaigning as off limits if it wasn't to rule out additional participation by the candidates over and above campaigning?


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:44:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hankg was supporting you (none / 0)

I think that comment was to slynch about ignoring the definition.


by Regenman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hankg was supporting you (none / 0)

If so, my bad.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hankg was supporting you (none / 0)

slynch flies fast and loose with mathematics when he doesn't like ti's realities.  Why not with english too.  Don't like the definition?  Call the dictionary wrong.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 06:17:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

you weren't part of that discussion anyway--you just came in to name call.  Go. away.


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:49:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

Didn't call you any names.  Only pointed out that you were wrong about the whole participation thing.  Judging by the mojo and comments of others, others agree with me.  

You got it wrong.  If you must sidetrack the conversation away from that go ahead.  You'll still be wrong.

Really, your time would be better spent trying to become qualified for your "job".


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 06:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

whatever.  You're clearly not interested in real discussion.  Scratch "name calling."  Call it "childish ad hominems."  That's all you do.  Go back to your high school and don't waste any more of my time.


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:27:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

oh, and the only reason you're getting any "mojo" is because this diary is full of Obama supporters.  It's hardly a measure of the merit of your arguments, because you haven't made any.  You've simply continued to show your immaturity with your ad homimens.  You haven't made a single point.  Which is why I'm done talking to you.  Now, go. away.


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:29:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

I've made several points.  You just refuse to address them.  Do I need to review them for you?

So far out of you we've had go back to high school and an accusation of immaturity.  I suspect that you have it backwards.

I'm not going anywhere and it is not within your power to order me to do so.  Your options are ignore me (probably your best option since you already choose not to defend your blather with logic), stop coming to mydd, or admit that you are wrong.  All of those things are within your power.  That is reality based unlike your insistence on ordering me to go away which obviously comes from some fantasy that you have any authority or influence whatsoever.

Do you want to address the idea that, according to the dictionary, you are incorrect.  Being on the ballot is participating.  You could also address one of my other points that clearly participating may include but is not limited to campaigning as the agreement states that the candidates are not to campaign or participate.  

See how easy it is to discredit your bullshit assertion that I haven't made a single point?  Do make a habit of serial lying or is it just when addressing me?


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:44:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

90% of your material is chest pounding, insult, and libel, which you mistake as reason.  If you cannot engage me as an adult, then I will report you to the admins.  They have the authority to ban you, and I don't think they'll be too sympathetic to your cause, given your libelous insults (see a few from today alone, below).  You're right, I don't have the authority myself to make you stop.  But what a child you are for insisting on harrassment.  I seriously think you need help, and I'm now sorry I gave away my identity.

You have yet to address the ONE point I've debated with you.  Here is that ONE point, yet again, that I asked you to debate the other day, but which you seem to neglect in favor of insults:

Show how you "knew" with no uncertainty that Clinton's chances were over in February.  I've explained in great detail why the data do not support this view--and didn't, all the way up until NC/IN, and still don't, wrt the popular vote.  You have yet to address this issue other than to chest pound and talk about how smart you think you are.  As I said the other day: speculation isn't mathematics.  But, given that you really aren't any sort of mathematician, you probably think it is.  I can tell you your belief that it was over in Februrary is laughable.  I'm a medium fish in a big pond of very big political experts, and not one of them would take your side on this issue.  But again, that's probably because they (like me) actually know something about probability and statistics.

Here is my response to the "participating" issue.  I see that somewhere after your initial insult today, you tossed in a one-line comment about the meaning of "particpating," in a discussion you weren't even part of.  You can read my responses to others on this issue in this diary.  I've read the pledge.  I've also read what the campaigns and DNC folks said at the time the pledge was signed--there was NOTHING said that required the candidates to remove their names from the ballots.  Hiding behind a dictionary definition isn't sufficient when you have the authorities involved in developing and signing the pledge saying that not participating did not mean name removal.  This relatively new talking point is dead on its face.

lockwasright's "intelligent" comments to me today:

"I guess the dictionaries in Jersey aren't any better than the calculators."

"All you've done is to stomp your feet at my presence.  It's not working.  Try holding your breath."

"slynch flies fast and loose with mathematics when he doesn't like ti's realities.  Why not with english too.  Don't like the definition?  Call the dictionary wrong."

"Really, your time would be better spent trying to become qualified for your "job".

"Do make a habit of serial lying or is it just when addressing me?"


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:49:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

I didn't say that I "knew" it was over back in February.  I said that it had become no longer competitive and that I had made predictions which have turned out to be accurate based on the math growing ever less favorable for Hillary at every turn.  In fact, I even admitted that it was sloppy language to speak in language of absolutes at that, or even this, point.  I also said that it was customary in our vernacular to do so when things were approaching a point of certainty.  Sloppy as it may be, it is part of our vernacular.

Do you not think that I can cherry pick rude comments from you as well?  

You didn't like the definition so you turned your back on it.

The last one is a legitimate question.

It is customary to just jump into conversations here.  It is how you have become a part of several conversations including our original encounter where you gave me basis to not believe that you have even an aptitude let alone a career in mathematics.  My doubts remain.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:05:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

this is the first post you've made to me that didn't involve a flat out insult.  Well, until the last line.  Sure, you can cherry pick some negative comments from me to you, but I think any objective observer would say that you've been over the line.  You've questioned my honesty, my integrity, and my intelligence, DIRECTLY, simply because I don't agree with you.  And you're still doing it.

Easy issue first:  I didn't turn my back on the definition--I argue that it is irrelevant, or maybe just a red herring.  The party did not ask candidates to remove their names from the ballot.  No one has suggested that, as far as I know, except here.  If that had been the intent, I would expect it would have been written into the pledge.  To me, and by a 'reasonable person' standard, I think "participate" means to fund raise and campaign.  But, of course, fund rasing wasn't even included in the pledge apparently.  So, it isn't a clearcut issue.  One could just as easily argue (and some have) that Obama removed his name not because of any belief in the pledge, but because he knew he couldn't win MI at the time, and he wanted to delegitimize the results.

As for the first issue, I'm not sure what we're debating about then.  Because I said that very detailed forecasts that I had done as of PA still did not show him conclusively winning the nomination.  As I said the other day, the mean favored him, but the variance was broad enough that it couldn't be called.  Thus, to say that was the case back in February makes it even more incorrect to claim he had won (or would win).  The data just didn't support that view.  It turned out to be correct, but it wasn't predictable by any statistical standard.

I believe I also told you I was thinking about going back and simulating the primaries in different orders basically to see where the "real" set of primaries fell in terms of predictability.  That is, what other primary sequences would give you an earlier time at which the race could be called.  I probably won't be doing that now, because I'm currently involved in some other simulation work for my real job that is taking up more time than expected.


by slynch on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:23:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would believe this guy before I believe you. (none / 0)

Garry Shay, a Clinton supporter and member of the Democratic National Committee Rules Committee, said this on May 4, 2008 (link:

There's the fact that Hillary Clinton's name and the uncommitted slate was the only thing that was on the ballot in Michigan because the Democratic National Committee asked the other candidates to withdraw their names from the ballot. So, here you have the institution itself asking people to pull their names off the ballot.


by edg1 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:44:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

the DNC has stated that "participating" and having your name on the ballot are two seperate and distinct things.
Otherwise, they could have sanctioned the candidates who left their nameson the ballot.
Removing the names from the Michigan ballot was nothing more than pandering to Iowa and New Hampshire. The DNC did not request removal of names from the ballot.

Democratic candidates John Edwards, Barack Obama, Bill Richardson and Joe Biden have withdrawn their names from the ballot to satisfy Iowa and New Hampshire, which were unhappy Michigan was challenging their leadoff status on the primary calendar.

That leaves Hillary Rodham Clinton, Dennis Kucinich, Chris Dodd, Mike Gravel and "uncommitted," as the choices on the Democratic ballot in Michigan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22054151/


by skohayes on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 07:34:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 1)

At the beginning of the day on 5/31, HRC had exactly zero delegates from MI, a dead heat with BHO as a result of rules and sanctions approved by her and her campaign.  At the end of the day, she had 10 more than him; so I'm not sure who you are claiming can "demand any votes they want to."


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:56:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

wasn't there a meme circulating around here not too long ago that "pledged delegates" are pledging to vote for a candidate, but not really bound by any bylaws to do so?  does the same hold for "uncommitted" delegates?  i.e. could there be a situation where delegates come to the convention uncommitted by are persuaded to vote for a particular candidate once they get there?


by the mollusk on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:38:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

My understanding of this is that, for all practical purposes, uncommited delegates are superdelegates.


by french imp on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 2)

When all the candidates sign a pledge that says they agree not to "campaign or participate" in a state, what does that mean?

I think it would be more accurate to say that Clinton had votes in MI due to her political maneuvers, and not because she won a vote fairly. The RBC knows that.


by mattw on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:50:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths (none / 0)

Oh, please, be rational.  What you call political maneuvering, every other candidate besides Clinton and Dodd considered the appropriate response.  Clinton was the one engaging in political maneuvering.  Biden called her on it.  A caller into NH Public Radio called her on it, saying it appeared that, by keeping her name on the MI ballot, she was doing the typical political maneuver of doing one thing while calling it another.  Clinton defended herself by saying that the primary was clearly not going to count for anything, so it didn't matter that she was keeping her name on the ballot.  She then spent months arguing that, because her name was on the ballot, she deserved all those delegates and popular votes.  She's still doing it with the latter, mythical metric, and Harold Ickes formally notified the DNC that she reserved the right to appeal the decision about the former.  Blatant, cynical political maneuvering.

But the fact remains that Clinton, like all the other candidates, agreed once upon a time that the MI primary wasn't going to count.  It became a beauty contest.  Who knows what percentage of the vote she would have received if anyone besides Dodd had been on it with her?  To say that she "deserved" 55% of the delegates, while Obama "deserved" 0%, is absurd.  Was it handled well?  I don't think so.  But the end result matches what the MI delegation wanted.

By the way, I also love how you brush aside the remainder of this well-sourced diary as "opinion."  

I know that many Clinton supporters feel that Obama supporters pile on around here, but we wouldn't need to if any Clinton supporters stepped up and acknowledged the circumstances surrounding Clinton's MI about-face.


by deminva on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:40:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

The Michigan delegation was not selected based in the ballots cast in Michigan.  There were never any uncommitted delegates, or any Clinton delegates, elected in the Michigan primary.  That was actually the problem that the Rules committee was seeking to address.  

The Michigan Democratic Party offered a compromise allocation that threw out the flawed and unsanctioned primary in favor of a simple allocation between the two leading candidates.  Though it is rumored that Obama could have had a majority vote in favor of a straightforward 50-50 split, they agreed to an allocation that gave Clinton a 10-vote edge.  Though they could have given her no edge at all, the gesture was apparently lost on the the Clinton folks.  


by Headlight on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:22:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well done (2.00 / 5)

What amazes me is Harold Ickes, who led the Clinton position on Saturday,
and who voted to strip all of the delegates from Florida and Michigan in December,
is actually taken seriously.
by fladem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:52:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well done (2.00 / 2)

what's amazing to me, is that in the interviews I heard with Harold Ickes this weekend, no one even brought it up.  Is it simply not true?  Do these interviewers just not put the time into their research?  Do they think it's rude to point out when someone is inconsistent?  


by the mollusk on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well done (2.00 / 1)

The New York Post (which I don't like, but I try to read everything) complimented him on the(paraphrased) "intellectual dexterity he exhibited by arguing so fervently against the 'disenfranchisement' of Michigan and Florida voters that he himself had voted for some months earlier."

I think that everybody - even people who believe wholeheartedly that Michigan and Florida were just and fair elections that should somehow count as cast - knows that's he's more or less full of shit.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:35:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Research! (none / 0)

Pah! Research is for dirty bloggers and other undesirables.  Perhaps it's time for another blogger ethics panel, hmmmm?


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

Well reasoned, well researched, very necessary and highly recommended.  Thank you.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:15:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (2.00 / 2)

Great diary.   Thank you.


We have nothing to fear but fear itself. And clowns.
by haremoor on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:04:22 AM EST

Re: These Myths Were (2.00 / 2)

Well done!

But will anyone who needs to read it actually do so?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:07:25 AM EST

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (1.92 / 13)

You are wrong, WRONG, WRONG!!

If not for that handful of Michigan delegates the RBC awarded Obama on that compromise, Clinton would've won this thing already. Instead, it was stolen, just like the Corrupt Bargain of 1824!! Or maybe it was stolen like the lives of Chinese pro-democracy dissidents!!! Give me a minute and I can probably get even more absurd!!!!

So just when it looked like a compromise would be reached that would satisfy everyone, I've got my "out clause" and can continue to be angry about something!!!

And don't even tell me that the Democratic parties of Florida and Michigan proposed the resolutions that were approved and were just fine with them. WHO ARE MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA DEMOCRATS TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES?!?


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:20:08 AM EST

Lol (2.00 / 3)

Thanks, this made me laugh. And then my stomach hurt for a moment. And then I just became overwhelmingly depressed. Oh well.
by NYMinute on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:22:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

Question for joanneleon...

This deserved to be troll-rated why exactly...?


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:43:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I've seen it before (none / 0)

Irony, sarcasm, satire...these are considered, by some here, TR-worthy offenses. I disagree with the practice, but if I understand the spirit of the TR in cases like these, it is that one is being chastized for being unkind.


Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. -Voltaire
by kydoc2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:11:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've seen it before (none / 0)

ah....

I had just gotten used to TR's used for mere disagreements...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

Don't forget Zimbabwe, Jim Crow, the denial of voting rights to women, and Russia. Because it's exactly like all of those things.

I can't remember where I heard it, but someone recently compared this to a physical mugging. But I think it's easy to lose perspective when you're passionate about something.


by tedit on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If Obama lives on Endor (2.00 / 1)

you must vote for McCain.


by JJE on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:24:14 AM EST

Myths? (1.25 / 4)

The entire Obama campaign has been a myth.  It's just one giant fairy tale not based in reality.

And now the Obama camp is throwing these numbers around when if we counted the votes honestly, we would find that Hillary won the popular vote and the pledged delegate count.


by HillsMyGirl on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:32:45 AM EST

Re: Myths? (2.00 / 1)

That was a fairly sweeping series of claims. Here are is my evidence, do you have any?

Low Puerto Rico Turnout Means Clinton Did Not Win the Popular Vote

Even With Michigan and Florida, Clinton Loses Pledged Delegate Race


by NYMinute on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:40:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths? (none / 0)

I'm afraid HillsMyGirl is a parody troll.  While I find him/her very amusing in diaries that deserve her comments, I'm afraid, this diary didn't need the parody.


by gchaucer2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:44:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths? (none / 0)

Hillsmygirl is the mydd version of stephen colbert.  They are messing with you.  It is actually very impressive.  I have yet to see them come out of character ever.  It has to be exhausting.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:49:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you for this (2.00 / 4)

well thought out diary.  You have three audiences here and only one matters -- those who are honestly struggling with the end of a hard-fought campaign.  These are the folks who are good Democrats but, like any of us, can get caught up with disinformation because it becomes a salve.
I have confidence that this audience will support the nominee.

As for those who are not thoughtful, rather, regurgitators of talking points founded upon lies, I don't think they are actually Democrats.  And if they are, I won't be sorry to see them go.  I think they honestly believe they are going to have another exodus as in 1980.  This is not 1980, sorry to pop their delusions of grandeur.

The third audience is the choir -- nothing more to say.


by gchaucer2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:42:39 AM EST

Re: These Myths Were Rebuked In the Fairest Forum (none / 0)

Good dairy. Well written. Mojo for ya. Lets now get down to the real fun. Taking over the White House!


by John a Va Dem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:46:02 AM EST

My second c