This Soldiers View of McCain's (Military) Experience

Cross posted from Dailykos

The only issue where John McCain scores higher than Barack Obama in the polls is National Security. I think it's pretty clear this is for two reasons. The Republicans tend to exude bravado in their rhetoric, which tends to make people feel 'safer', if you will. The mind set of "don't F--K with us, we'll protect you."

But also his military experience plays a significant role. Let's examine that for a minute.  

McCain's military service, while honorable, has nothing to do with being Commander in Chief.

The US Army categorizes leadership into three main levels. Direct leadership, Organizational Leadership and Strategic Leadership.

For more:
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/ar my_board_study_guide_topics/leadership/a rmy-leadership-doctrine-.shtml

The three levels of Army leadership describe the different skills and actions necessary for handling increasing complexity at higher levels.

Direct leadership is the work of first-line supervisors, whether they are corporals, captains or colonels. It is about face-to-face communication, so it clearly applies at the tactical level in teams, squads, sections, platoons and batteries-even in battalions and squadrons. But the skills and actions also apply at higher levels, when leaders supervise, counsel and mentor their immediate subordinates.

Organizational leadership occurs at levels from battalion through corps within the military; at directorate through installation level for military and civilian leaders; and at assistant through undersecretary levels. From a warfighting perspective, leaders operate at the tactical level, but their influence is much broader when they operate increasingly through staffs. It may be helpful to think of brigade as the lowest level that is squarely in the organizational realm, for this level's leaders have staffs that coordinate with both higher and lower staffs. In a large organization such as a brigade, it is also impossible to know everyone in the unit or speak personally to all assigned soldiers.

Strategic leadership occurs at the highest civilian and military levels, whether in institutional settings stateside or operational contexts around the world. Regardless of the specific environment-Army staff, joint, combined, political or diplomatic-strategic leaders face uncertainty, ambiguity and volatility. They must think in multiple time domains simultaneously as they deal with urgent crises worldwide, yet still continually provide for the future 15, 20, even 25 years out.

In order for military service to be even remotely applicable to being Commander in Chief; that person had to have served at least at the high end of the organizational level, but in reality the strategic level is where leadership becomes applicable. Former General Wesley Clark is a prime example.

There are many in the military, both enlisted and officers, who never serve in a command capacity. Senator McCain did command the Navy's largest aviation squadron, VA-174, at Cecil Field in Florida. Without a doubt that is a highly respected position of authority, but this would fall under the bottom end of organizational level leadership.

When deciding who one prefers as President should McCain's service be considered? That depends on the individual. I certainly don't fault someone for giving him points, so to speak, for giving so much of himself to this country. In fact, I add that to my "plus" column as well. But from a pragmatic standpoint his service does not equate to actual related experience.

On the flip side it can be argued that, as someone who has seen the ugliness of war, McCain would be more empathetic to the plight of our service men and women. But unfortunately that is offset by the beach boys spoof "bomb bomb bomb Iran." It's also troubling that after the tax payers fully paid for the cost of his education, he would oppose Senator Webb's GI Bill that would do the same for the rest of us.

Unfortunately most voters view things through an overly simplistic prism. (R) + Military Experience = Strong on National Security.

Barack Obama co-sponsored the GI Bill that McCain opposed. Barack Obama wants to increase the size of the Army and Marines and upgrade our equipment to relieve the stress our branches have endured. Barack Obama was the only candidate with the courage willing to go after al-Qaeda when they hide out in Pakistan. Barack Obama has done great things for the VA hospitals. As a currently serving Airborne Infantry Soldier, Barack Obama has my vote.



Display:


Troll Rate Jar (2.00 / 19)


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:04:25 PM EST

Re: Troll Rate Jar (2.00 / 4)

Great diaries like this one get barely any love and rehashed primary war diaries get on the Rec.List.

Rec'd.


No way. No how. No McCain!
by spacemanspiff on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:43:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Troll Rate Jar (2.00 / 2)

Tell me about it.  I posted a diary on Iraq yesterday.  Took me hours to figure out how to make a damn table in html.

Slid off the page and into obscurity, barely noticed.  Title must not have been offensive enough.  

sigh...


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 02:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Troll Rate Jar (none / 0)

KUDOS for making the list . . . I felt lonely Rec'ing you an hour ago.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 01:23:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Add his voting record... (2.00 / 1)

As I said in another comment a while back, veterans issues are very important to me, and on several occasions I have posted links on various blogs wherein you can directly compare McCain, Obama and Hillary on their voting records for Disabled Vets. I submit that if more veterans and active duty service men/women looked at those records, they would think twice about McCain's claim of supporting the troops. For the record, here are those links again:

   

Disabled Veterans:
    Key votes by Hillary Clinton: http://capwiz.com/dav/bio/keyvotes/?id=1 0902&lvl=C
    Key votes by Barack Obama: http://capwiz.com/dav/bio/keyvotes/?id=3 181&lvl=C
    Key votes by John McCain: http://capwiz.com/dav/bio/keyvotes/?id=1 92&lvl=C

And here is McCain's record according to VA Watchdog

   

Veterans Issues

   2006 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 20 percent in 2006.

   2006 In 2006 Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America gave Senator McCain a grade of D.

   2006 Senator McCain sponsored or co-sponsored 18 percent of the legislation favored by the The Retired Enlisted Association in 2006.

   2005 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 25 percent in 2005.

   2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 50 percent in 2004.

   2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the The Retired Enlisted Association 0 percent in 2004.

   2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Vietnam Veterans of America 100 percent in 2003-2004.

   2003 Senator McCain supported the interests of the The American Legion 50 percent in 2003.

   2001 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Vietnam Veterans of America 46 percent in 2001.

   1999 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 66 percent in 1999.

   1997-1998 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Vietnam Veterans of America 0 percent in 1997-1998.

   1989-1990 On the votes that the Vietnam Veterans of America considered to be the most important in 1989-1990 , Senator McCain voted their preferred position 50 percent of the time.

McCain's own voting record could sink him IF that record gets out!


by Swedie on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 01:58:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oops, sorry. Forgot to take the (none / 0)

Hillary link out.


by Swedie on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 01:59:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well said Trooper (2.00 / 3)

And thank you for your service to our country.


by UrbanRedneck on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 01:03:37 PM EST

Thanks for this (2.00 / 1)

While I don't recommend attacking McCain on his military service, which as you note was honorable, the guy got cut a lot of slack for being an admiral's boy.  I'd be willing to bet that any other hotdog flying through power cables in another country would probably be grounded; one has to wonder how many of his crashes were equipment error and how many were operator error.

This isn't about his competance, of course, it's about the entitlement that he was given and the question over whether he really understands or can relate to the gropos and NCLs that he says he has so much affection for.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 01:15:53 PM EST

Re: Thanks for this (2.00 / 1)

Yeah.  My first impulse when watching Clark criticize McCain was, this can't possibly swing any voters.  But then we're living in the shadow of 2004 where John Kerry got deemed unpatriotic for his military service by someone who ducked Vietnam on his fathers dime.  


by such sweet thunder on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 07:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Flyboys have their strengths (2.00 / 2)

but empathy for the boots on the ground isn't generally considered one of them. See: Rumsfeld, Donald.


by Mobar on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 01:52:24 PM EST

Nice diary. (none / 0)

Great perspective.  Thanks for posting this.

Rec'd.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 02:09:00 PM EST

Re: This Soldiers View of McCain's (Military) Expe (2.00 / 2)

Rec'd and a BIG HOOOOAH! from a former soldier


John McCain: Four More Years of Failure.
by dannybauder on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 02:31:56 PM EST

Re: This Soldiers View of McCain (2.00 / 1)

simply being a soldier isn't enough to determine leadership potential, as you point out.  Even if it were, I'd have to ask: How good of a soldier was McCain.  From a snarky perspective, he squeaked through his training, then he crashed and spent the Vietnam War as a POW.  What kind of leadership is that?  Seems a lot like Bush--squeaked through training (and didn't show up much), crashed in Iraq, and is now a virtual POW to his own policies.

btw, are you enlisted or officer?


by slynch on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 03:26:21 PM EST

Re: This Soldiers View of McCain (2.00 / 1)

"simply being a soldier isn't enough to determine leadership potential, as you point out."

I look at it this way:

Bill Clinton beat two WW2 heroes
Zach W. Morris went AWOL from the champagne brigade and beat a Vietnam hero, and a sort-of-Vietnam-vet in Gore (he was a reporter on the ground--I'd at least put his service on par with everyone's favorite REMF Lindsey Graham.)

In other words, AC McSlater is the ideal opponent to beat based on the last four elections. :)


by BlueEngineerInOhio on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 05:17:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Soldiers View of McCain (2.00 / 1)

I'm a Sergeant.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 05:49:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Soldiers View of McCain (2.00 / 1)

So you work for a living, then?

:P


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:22:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This isn't so useful (none / 0)

I don't think it's good politics to do anything that attacks McCain's service as a military officer, even if it's done for a good purpose.  This diary seems to tread that line, but carefully.  

Your comment goes over it: asking how good a soldier he was and using his time as POW to emphasize the point is sort of heartless (not to mention politically useless).


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:24:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This isn't so useful (2.00 / 1)

Did you actually read the diary? Absolutely nothing I said attacks his service or his status as a POW.

It simply makes the point that military service does not automatically equate to experience relevant to being Commander in Chief.

If It insults his service by saying so then it insults mine as well. Because I sure as hell don't think I'm qualified to be President.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:57:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This isn't so useful (none / 0)

I wasn't responding to you.  I was responding to this comment:

...simply being a soldier isn't enough to determine leadership potential, as you point out.  Even if it were, I'd have to ask: How good of a soldier was McCain.  From a snarky perspective, he squeaked through his training, then he crashed and spent the Vietnam War as a POW.  What kind of leadership is that?  Seems a lot like Bush--squeaked through training (and didn't show up much), crashed in Iraq, and is now a virtual POW to his own policies.

I actually took the time to say that you didn't attack his service.


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 02:47:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My Mistake (2.00 / 1)

And I totally agree with you. Sorry I misunderstood.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 03:21:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Mistake (2.00 / 1)

It's cool.  It's easy to get confused in these threads :)


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 03:55:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This isn't so useful (none / 0)

I don't know if I agree with you or not.  Like I said, I was being somewhat snarky.  But, I think if McCain starts attacking Obama for his lack of service, then McCain's service is fair game.

My point was that just because you have spent time in the military does not make you a leader (just as the diarist was saying).  I spent 8 years in the Army Reserve and wouldn't claim any sort of leadership potential on that basis alone.  What matters is what you did.


by slynch on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 11:01:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This isn't so useful (2.00 / 1)

I tend to agree with her that (at best) attacking his service is counterproductive. Whether or not you feel there's validity to your argument, it's a losing one politically.

I, for one, sincerely honor his service to this country. And I'm not just being politically correct. I've only been to Iraq but from what I know of Vietnam the horrors (frequency and magnitude) were even worse. I can't imagine being a POW for FIVE fricking years. I spent a piddly four months in Iraq, NOT as a POW, and even that felt like a long time.

Also, McCain does have leadership experience in the truest sense of the word. But when it comes to leadership on a macro level, i.e. policy issues and moving the big pieces he has none.

The only point of my diary is this... Claiming McCain's military background as "experience" for Commander in Chief is like saying being Regional Manager for McDonald's qualifies you for the McDonald's Corp CEO spot.

That's why our civilian leadership should always consult their top military brass in the course of their CIC duties. Having Wesley Clark in the VP spot gives the administration a HUGE advantage in many of their briefings.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 11:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This isn't so useful (2.00 / 1)

I agree with you that it's probably politically counterproductive.  (Although, those swiftboat ads were pretty successful against Kerry...)

I appreciate his service, just like I appreciate yours.  But, that does not a leader make.  Basically, I'm agreeing with your diary.  I just find it somewhat funny that McCain would argue that his military experience qualifies him for the presidency, when his military experience was what it was.  He certainly had it rough--I also can't imagine spending 5 years as a POW in the conditions he did.  But that doesn't make him a leader.


by slynch on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 11:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Soldiers View of McCain's (2.00 / 1)

In the Navy, McCain would probably have needed to command a Carrier Battle Group, to have reached the upper end of the organizational level.  

He never even came near that level.  


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 04:08:08 PM EST

Re: This Soldiers View of McCain's (Military) Expe (2.00 / 1)

Brilliant.  Take twice daily with cable news.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 05:48:40 PM EST


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